Political correctness gone mad [Archive] - Armageddon Online Forums

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Cornish Maid

May 25th, 2007, 8:42 AM

Gang is to be deemed offensive and to be replaced by group.

This article by the brilliant Richard Littlejohn.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/dailymail.html?in_article_id=457499&in_page

Mezurashi

May 25th, 2007, 9:14 AM

this is nothing new to me, ever since I was told I wasn't Japanese anymore but simply 'Asian'. I guess having to identify the yellow skinned with nation of origin was too much work for the New Harmony so we Orientals got glommed in with Hindu's, Punjabi's, Bangladeshi's, Russians, and so on. Now we are all Asian.

Screw the PC BS! I am Japanese, or Oriental. Calling me Asian tells me you are a closeted bigot who can't be bothered to find out where the wogs come from, instead you'll just blanket us all with a convenient cover label in order to prevent the need for any thought of what 'Un-White' types want or where they come from or anything like that.

Political Correctness was created in order to appease the bigots out there who, feeling guilty about their inherent prejudgices, decided to Disguise their hatred and fear with happy sounding words which DisEmpowered and further marginalized the very groups they were supposed to be showing greater respect to.

When someone says, "A young Asian male tried to rob me," it sounds all cool and understanding like. Now change that to, "A young Chink punk tried to rob me," and you get the TRUE gist of what that person was trying to say.

Asian Drivers, African-American DJ's, Middle Asian Falafels, South American Waxing - all of this is just another way of saying Chink, Nigger, Turban Head and Beaner.

Truth is certainly out of style.

May 25th, 2007, 9:29 AM

I'm Caucasian, and the definition says its all of Russia, Georgia, the Caspian sea area, even parts of Africa! It seems we wandered west in search of some better place...and lost our way back...

But I don't feel bad about it...........

DontBeAfraid

May 25th, 2007, 3:51 PM

Calling me Asian tells me you are a closeted bigot who can't be bothered to find out where the wogs come from, instead you'll just blanket us all with a convenient cover label in order to prevent the need for any thought of what 'Un-White' types want or where they come from or anything like that.Unles you can look at any person in the world and tell them exactly which country they are from then shut you mouth about this being bigoted. There is no reason for you to cry simply because I dont know the difference between an asian from one region and an asian from another.

When someone says, "A young Asian male tried to rob me," it sounds all cool and understanding like. Now change that to, "A young Chink punk tried to rob me," and you get the TRUE gist of what that person was trying to say.Wow, does everyone in the world have a persecution complex? The word Asian was never intended to be derogatory and your statement is retarded and baseless. Can you tell the difference between hutu's and tutsi's (spelling) or between norwegians and germans? or between Iraqy's and Iranians? or between the different native american tribes? Shut you "poor me" mouth about this imagined bigotry.

Truth is certainly out of style.The TRUTH is that YOU perpetuate the racism because you are the racist. I dont care which asian country you ancestors are from, it was still an ASIAN country and that makes YOU asian.... that is if you really cant stand being american.

Fucking baby.

lycanox

May 25th, 2007, 4:23 PM

Cartesiantheater

May 25th, 2007, 5:13 PM

But you can take things to far. There is no point in replacing words that nobody finds insulting in the first place.
Take Genocide for an example. It got replaced by ethnic cleansing a while ago.
Who the hell is gonna complain when someone uses genocide? The victims?

Personally, I think enthic cleansing is more insulting. "Cleansing" implies that the race being terminated somehow soils the land they're being terminated in- as if killing them is "cleaning."

Anyway, here's the REAL problem here. RACE IS A STUPID IDEA!

I picked the word on purpose. It has LITTLE legitimacy, scientifically speaking. There is more variation WITHIN a race than BETWEEN races. If you would all just accept that fact that you're just the ancestors of apes... we aren't special.. we are PRIMATES for fuck's sake...

As to the original post, you gotta keep in mind that there are many other words that group races together... Hispanic (many different races here), White (there are many different types of whitey's too- you've got your Norse-types, your Gingers, etc), Your various Arab-ish types, etc, etc.

It is all crap. Every one of these races (read ALL races, I don't feel like listing every "type") are nothing but intelligent monkeys... oh, if we'd only see the truth...

Traveler

May 25th, 2007, 6:58 PM

I know that there is a push to get rid of the divisions in the human race and that means that nationality is on the chopping block.

But I think that this is going to prove to be a fruitless exercise as the recognition of these divisions seems to be hard wired in our collective subconscious.

Take a look at what you see in nature.

Does an ant ever change its colony?

Does a bee ever change its hive?

How often to you see a lion swap its pride?

I've never known a lower primate like a monkey depart from its troop to join another.

All the tribal members in the third world continue to adhere to their original tribal roots and then complain about tribalism or nepotism when they are the ones left out instead of the other group.

Mezurashi

May 25th, 2007, 7:59 PM

Damn I missed you, DBA. And yup, my response was as you described except for the acknowledgement of Perspective on the issue. But trust that my rant was heart-felt, if not logical, rational or objective. How one feels about the issue is part of the issue ... and I find myself slipping down the same spiral I used to, rofl.

When I try to apply a more objective view I see that there are those who use 'PC' nomenclature with iintegrity and respect. It is, therefore, unfortunate that my personal experiences with large samplings of the human species has given me the perspective it has. Though I am exposed to a lot of people, I have to keep reminding myself that these people are Tourists - and therefore they are not truly representational of their micro-societal group. I don't know how else to describe it since even general area ID, like state or even city or town, can be terribly inaccurate. However, whether they're white, black, yellow, red, green or purple, there are a Lot of assholes out there.

My objection to the whole PC thing is as a result of the negative ways in which people can utilize it to disguise their bigotry - and if you can't see why this would be objectionalble then ... whatever.

Traveler - you've described the basic problem with trying to apply the concept of self-awareness or 'civilization' to basic motivational factors. We are still very much animals, though we have developed all sorts of neat tricks, and somehow we've either forgotten or deluded ourselves into believing we aren't still driven by basic primal instinct. Our aggressive nature is as a result of the fact that we survived as a species. If we hadn't been so damn nasty something else would have hunted us to extinction long ago.

So the idea of race, or groups, or left versus right handedness, will always crop up. I suppose my extreme feelings about the PC thing are proof that I am still an animal with the ability to use big words, sometimes. If so, know now that I pledge not to be so reactive about such issues - but don't count on it because I am human and our primary skill is the ability to screw things up.

DontBeAfraid

May 25th, 2007, 8:40 PM

there are a Lot of assholes out there.From one perspective or another we are all assholes.

If so, know now that I pledge not to be so reactive about such issues We all get "on one" now and again.

Cornish Maid

May 26th, 2007, 4:42 AM

Well gang is apparently the German for go, so a gang is effectively a group of people who are "going together".

This does not have to be all bad news.

You could say to someone, come on over tonight , the gang is going to be there, like a circle of friends or colleagues.

Those that need to be protected from being called gangs but groups instead, by the PC brigade, must be doing something wrong and if they are why are they being protected? :dunno:

Havoc Angel

May 26th, 2007, 4:59 AM

lycanox

May 26th, 2007, 7:08 AM

They use that word a lot in Scooby doo.
Never expected that show to end up on the wrong site of the law.

Cornish Maid

May 26th, 2007, 12:45 PM

Exchanging gang for group will take a lot or rewriting, take for example the following article.

http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/features/2000-2009/2006/08/nparticle.2006-08-03.2020148239

Cornish Maid

May 26th, 2007, 12:58 PM

The german word 'Gang' means 'corridor', not 'go'. 'Gehen' means 'to go' It also is used for 'gears' and a is used in conjunction with other words to describe many things involving going somewhere.

You will need to search the english origin for 'gang' to find out more about the meaning of the word, I think. German is a dead end here. Maybe a 'gang' is a short form of 'gathering'? I don't know.

Thanks Havoc. Some misinformation there.

Gang - Company of workmen, or of slaves or prisoners; band of persons acting or going about together, esp. for criminal purpose or (colloq.) other purpose causing disapproval.

Sammy56

May 26th, 2007, 9:12 PM

Gang is to be deemed offensive and to be replaced by group.That is incredibly stupid. If they really want to come up with a new name, fine. But group? That term is some ambiguous. I mean, any gathering of people could be classified as a gang. A group of teenagers hanging out is not a gang.

Traveler

May 27th, 2007, 2:50 AM

All this does is mess up the English language.

40 years from now the word group will be associated with biker groups and the Hells angles. Then some bright lad will come up with the idea of banning the word group and replacing it with the word fellowship or club because it doesn't sound so bad,

Attempts to sanitize everything just results in dirtying the sanitary towel. IF the word has a dirty cogitation then just leave it because the cogitation is supposed to be there anyway!

Becks

Jun 8th, 2007, 9:20 PM

Screw the PC BS! I am Japanese, or Oriental. Calling me Asian tells me you are a closeted bigot who can't be bothered to find out where the wogs come from, instead you'll just blanket us all with a convenient cover label in order to prevent the need for any thought of what 'Un-White' types want or where they come from or anything like that.

You want to be called Japanese yet I'm just White? I wasn't aware that Japanese was a racial class on its own.

This is a common sentiment with many Asians and SE Asians in Canada and I find it truly annoying. When you start referring to me as Dutch/Scandinavian instead of White then we can discuss this.

I agree with DBA on this one!

so we Orientals got glommed in with Hindu's, Punjabi's, Bangladeshi's, Russians, and so on

No you didn't. Asian = Oriental and SE Asian or Indo= Hindu, Punjabi, etc.

When it comes to racial classes Indo's are actually Caucasian along with Northern Africans, East Asians and Europeans because they are all descendants of the Indo-Caucus region. Equating Caucasian = White is a sore mistake.

Mezurashi

Jun 9th, 2007, 9:53 AM

You want to be called Japanese yet I'm just White? I wasn't aware that Japanese was a racial class on its own.

This is a common sentiment with many Asians and SE Asians in Canada and I find it truly annoying. When you start referring to me as Dutch/Scandinavian instead of White then we can discuss this.

I agree with DBA on this one!

No you didn't. Asian = Oriental and SE Asian or Indo= Hindu, Punjabi, etc.

When it comes to racial classes Indo's are actually Caucasian along with Northern Africans, East Asians and Europeans because they are all descendants of the Indo-Caucus region. Equating Caucasian = White is a sore mistake.

Read more and you will see that there is more than this - or do you have a Thing against Orientals in Canada?

and Dutchmen in Vancouver are known as Van Der Zalm's illegitimate bastards as far as I'm concerned - I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.

Do my Extremely Personal experiences give me the right to Judge You based on your post? address me as I wish and we can talk, you wife beating alcoholic. otherwise you should understand that irrational, emotional topics bring up irrational emotions.

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:31 AM

Read more and you will see that there is more than this - or do you have a Thing against Orientals in Canada?

and Dutchmen in Vancouver are known as Van Der Zalm's illegitimate bastards as far as I'm concerned - I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.

Do my Extremely Personal experiences give me the right to Judge You based on your post? address me as I wish and we can talk, you wife beating alcoholic. otherwise you should understand that irrational, emotional topics bring up irrational emotions.

Over the top on this one dude.

Beck is a girl, and a nice one at that! so back off with that crap! Warned.

Defiant Noquisi

Jun 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM

But I think that this is going to prove to be a fruitless exercise as the recognition of these divisions seems to be hard wired in our collective subconscious. I get the gist of what you mean, but just for "pc's" sake and because I've been accused on occasion of being a "tree hugger";

Does an ant ever change its colony? Yes, a new queen and her consort will leave the "birth" colony and make a new home elsewhere. Also, when a queen dies and another is not "ready" or available, colonies have been ditched and residence taken up elsewhere. Army ants of South America are nomadic for example. Ant colonies emigrate much more often that people realize.

Does a bee ever change its hive? Yes! When the population of one hive becomes too large and cannot be expanded, and when a new queen leaves to make an abode elsewhere taking her "consort" with her, when disease spreads in a hive. Also, when a queen dies and another is not "ready" or available, hives have been ditched and residence taken up elsewhere. Note that this is regarding honey bees only, as most other bees in the US anyway, are solitary.

How often to you see a lion swap its pride? Everytime a male is old enough! The females most often stay within a family group but males will most often leave to make their own pride or take over one from another male.

I've never known a lower primate like a monkey depart from its troop to join another. Uh, there are many kinds of monkeys that change bands.

All the tribal members in the third world continue to adhere to their original tribal roots...... Uhm, what about the Bedouins and Tuareg of North Africa? I'm not trying to be an ass here, but just sayin'......

lycanox

Jun 9th, 2007, 1:16 PM

I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.

Well, nice to meet ya. I guess.

Defiant Noquisi

Jun 9th, 2007, 2:16 PM

Well, nice to meet ya. I guess. My first thought isn't wooden shoes and windmills, it's chocolate, Dutch chocolate, especially white chocolate, mmmmmmm nummy.

Second in line, Mexican chocolate. Completely different flavors, both pleasing to my palate.

Sammy56

Jun 9th, 2007, 3:19 PM

I am Japanese, or Oriental. Calling me Asian tells me you are a closeted bigot who can't be bothered to find out where the wogs come from, instead you'll just blanket us all with a convenient cover label in order to prevent the need for any thought of what 'Un-White' types want or where they come from or anything like that.I don't see how that makes someone a bigot at all. I mean, where I live, there is a very small Asian population. I cannot tell the difference between someone who is Japanese or Korean or Chinese, not because I want to lump them all together, but just because there just aren't enough people around here. Asian does not seem like a derogatory term. At least, no more derogatory than White. I have a few Asian friends and once I got to know them I refereed to them as Korean or Chinese, but before they were Asian, not because I am a bigot, but because I didn't know.

and Dutchmen in Vancouver are known as Van Der Zalm's illegitimate bastards as far as I'm concerned - I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.And yet you demand respect about your ethnicity when you cannot even respect others?

Cartesiantheater

Jun 9th, 2007, 4:51 PM

I don't see how that makes someone a bigot at all. I mean, where I live, there is a very small Asian population. I cannot tell the difference between someone who is Japanese or Korean or Chinese, not because I want to lump them all together, but just because there just aren't enough people around here. Asian does not seem like a derogatory term. At least, no more derogatory than White. I have a few Asian friends and once I got to know them I refereed to them as Korean or Chinese, but before they were Asian, not because I am a bigot, but because I didn't know.

I agree with Sammy, but for a different reason.

Mezurashi:

It is STUPID to get offended at a term that is NOT INTENDED to be a racial slur. NO ONE chooses the word that is used to describe their race, country of origin or whatever.

Black people are called black- whether they are from Jamaica, Africa, the US, the UK, or Kasikstan.

White people are called white- whether they are of Norse decent, German, Russian, whatever.

If you want to be FAIR we should call you "<<insert color that accurately reflects your particular racial decent>>" since that's the type of word used for blacks and whites.

Further, WHO THE HELL CARES what nationallity/race you're called or grouped together with? I HONESTLY WOULDN'T GIVE A RATS ASS if people started calling me Jewish, or Affrican American or ::insert racially descriptive word:: - not at ALL.

The fact that you ARE offended suggests that you have RACIALLY BAISED FEELINGS against those who are also considered Asian (Chinese maybe?).

YOU hate THEM and that's why you get pissed when you are "lumped" together with them.

It's true isn't it? Admit it!

(how does it feel, by the way?)

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:16 PM

Well said CT............!

Mezurashi

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:31 PM

Interesting how quickly several basic prejudices expressed themselves ... I see this is a hot topic and there are a lot of people out there who still hold irrational 'beliefs' that need addressing (Not modifying, just addressing)

back off because becks is a nice girl - yet her supporting an extreme shot against me is fine - ok so can we count the number of stereotypical behaviours here? if Political Correctness is to be applied then shall we examine concepts of equality of the right to express oneself. insults are not Nice but they are a form of expression. the banner of this topic group (Off Topic) states that all opinions are expressed here. if I am to be expected to 'watch my tongue' because of someone's gender, well, I'M not the one applying prejudicial and/or biased behaviour, am I.

also, becks comment, "This is a common sentiment with many Asians and SE Asians in Canada and I find it truly annoying." is, in itself, very much related to the form of declarative where I slag the Dutch. How many of us yellow skinned folk do you know becks? is it enough to form a comparative sampling of how all Asians all over the world feel? and What Kind Of Authority Or Justification do you have to 'find it annoying' while at the same time trying to negate my 'finding it annoying' in my own way?

Sammy56 - I haven't demanded respect, I have expressed my negative Opinion on a topic - read my posts. I speak of respect being given and the condition I would hope too see, but I have not demanded it from the world. and if complaining that there is a lack of respect is the same as demanding it, then I guess I must be demanding.

Cartesiantheatre - I hate people for being assholes, jerks and so forth and their origin does not prejudge or influence whether or not I think they're an asshole. I also can praise those who respect me, but as I can paint an entire culture with one colour of tone (i.e. - Japanese are So Polite, Italians make Great Lovers, French have Great Cuisine) so can I do the same in the negative as this is the realm of Subjective Opinion. I am not declaring that this is absolute nor do I claim infaillibility - again read ALL my posts on this thread and you will see many colours and shades of rationality as far as my negative reactions to Political Correctness are concerned.

And has anyone heard about that poor kid's pirate themed birthday party which was curtailed by the local Council due to a neighbour's complaint that pirate imagery was disrespectful or incited violence or something to that effect?

Hate me for feeling like I do - but if you respond in the same manner as the people I have 'trouble' with expect some negativity - and those who feel I need to be warned about 'crossing the line' might wish to consider the whole point of 'free discussion'. If You Wish To Involve Yourself Be Prepared To Get Involved - but insulting me, or supporting someone's insult of me, then having an overseer crack the whip when I respond isn't my idea of free discussion. I will accept and respond to insults - but if an apology is demanded then I should receive one as well, unless the Rules aren't The Same for everyone anymore.

Political Correctness - my ass.

Becks

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:38 PM

Read more and you will see that there is more than this - or do you have a Thing against Orientals in Canada?

No, as a Norse Heathen my following of the Virtues has taught that we may not hold a Thing to be against people of other cultures and ethnicities. Sorry, you probably won't get that but I couldn't help myself since you capitalised "thing"

No, most of my close friends are Asian and prefer to be called Asian and not Oriental which is derogatory in ways and should only be used to describe rugs and noodles.

and Dutchmen in Vancouver are known as Van Der Zalm's illegitimate bastards as far as I'm concerned .

Goods thing I'm from Ontario Dutch stock and have no relations to the Dutch out here. They're from a different region of Holland (by name) and you shouldn't confuse the nice Dutch of Vancouver with the overly religious and intolerant Dutch of Abbotsford.

I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.

You ahould get out and see the world more.

___________________________________________

Beck is a girl, and a nice one at that!

Oh you're gonna make me blush Shortround! Yep, I blushed!

___________________________________________

My first thought isn't wooden shoes and windmills, it's chocolate, Dutch chocolate, especially white chocolate,

I am a chocoholic myself, but if you've never had a Stroopwaffel you HAVE to have one! Stroopwaffels warmed over a cup of Dutch hot chocolate is the best!

____________________________________________

Originally Posted by Mezurashi
I've never met a Dutchman who wasn't drunk or a wife beater.

Well, nice to meet ya. I guess.

Lol...where are you from in the Netherlands Lycanox?

____________________________________________

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:46 PM

Mez, your rhetoric sounds as if you demand something, and when the response is not to you liking, you get hot about it! Your remarks went a lot deeper in regards to categorizing a group, and judging by the overall opinions by others here, I would deem that as a majority towards your singular attitude of being right.

Its been said this board is window to the worlds opinion, so for now the majority of this little window finds your statements to be incorrect. The warning stands.

Becks

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:54 PM

also, becks comment, "This is a common sentiment with many Asians and SE Asians in Canada and I find it truly annoying." is, in itself, very much related to the form of declarative where I slag the Dutch. How many of us yellow skinned folk do you know becks?

I know quite a few and it IS a very common sentiment amongst the immigrant Asians. Chinese, Japanese and Koreans especially hate being lumped together because for illogical and dated reasons they can't tolerate eachother. Most Asians have not left their intolerance and lack of respect for other Asians back in Asia and have brought it here. I hear so many stories of family turmoil over this from my Asian friends who come to Canada and want to have a relationship with an Asian from another nation.

Sit back and think of how you would react if some White person mistakenly called you Chinese. 93% probablilty you would be offended.

I hardly understand why Asians have such a hate on for eachother. Some of my family were killed by Nazis and I have no ill feelings towards the Germans. From the tourists I've met and what I've learned about their country I would love the chance to go there!

Traveler

Jun 10th, 2007, 3:31 PM

I get the gist of what you mean, but just for "pc's" sake and because I've been accused on occasion of being a "tree hugger";

Yes, a new queen and her consort will leave the "birth" colony and make a new home elsewhere. Also, when a queen dies and another is not "ready" or available, colonies have been ditched and residence taken up elsewhere. Army ants of South America are nomadic for example. Ant colonies emigrate much more often that people realize.

Yes! When the population of one hive becomes too large and cannot be expanded, and when a new queen leaves to make an abode elsewhere taking her "consort" with her, when disease spreads in a hive. Also, when a queen dies and another is not "ready" or available, hives have been ditched and residence taken up elsewhere. Note that this is regarding honey bees only, as most other bees in the US anyway, are solitary.

Everytime a male is old enough! The females most often stay within a family group but males will most often leave to make their own pride or take over one from another male.

Uh, there are many kinds of monkeys that change bands.

Uhm, what about the Bedouins and Tuareg of North Africa? I'm not trying to be an ass here, but just sayin'......

As you have stated they branch off and make a new separate colony. They do not become a part of another already established colony. When the pride grows too big then the younger lions will split off and form their own pride with a separate hunting area.

What I have said still stands. New hives and colonies continually come into being but once established they do not mix under natural conditions.

Sammy56

Jun 10th, 2007, 3:41 PM

What I have said still stands. New hives and colonies continually come into being but once established they do not mix under natural conditions.Possibly, but humans are different. This does not hold true for them. We can move across the world. We leave one group of friends and join another. While some humans refuse to socialize outside their little "circles", which can be defined by race, religion, interests, etc., most socialize with people who are much different than us. Hell, look at the AO community. We are spread around the world, practice different faiths, enjoy different activities, but we talk and joke around on this site all the time. We aren't as isolated as other animals, especially since the invention of the internet.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 10th, 2007, 4:03 PM

Cartesiantheatre - I hate people for being assholes, jerks and so forth and their origin does not prejudge or influence whether or not I think they're an asshole. I also can praise those who respect me, but as I can paint an entire culture with one colour of tone (i.e. - Japanese are So Polite, Italians make Great Lovers, French have Great Cuisine) so can I do the same in the negative as this is the realm of Subjective Opinion.

Yes, this is the realm of subjective opinion. It is MY subjective opinion that people who give damn what race they are called are racist bastards. It shouldn't matter, and it WOULDN'T matter to people if they really thought all races were equal.

I am not declaring that this is absolute nor do I claim infaillibility - again read ALL my posts on this thread and you will see many colours and shades of rationality as far as my negative reactions to Political Correctness are concerned.

I don't necessarily think you've been totally mean or blatantly racist or anything, and I have to give you at least SOME credit for responding "nicely" some of the time, but the fact remains that you care what race you are called, and to me anyone who does only cares because they fancy the race they consider themselves to be superior to others. Why else would they care?

Hate me for feeling like I do - but if you respond in the same manner as the people I have 'trouble' with expect some negativity - and those who feel I need to be warned about 'crossing the line' might wish to consider the whole point of 'free discussion'. If You Wish To Involve Yourself Be Prepared To Get Involved - but insulting me, or supporting someone's insult of me, then having an overseer crack the whip when I respond isn't my idea of free discussion. I will accept and respond to insults - but if an apology is demanded then I should receive one as well, unless the Rules aren't The Same for everyone anymore.

Yes, this is free discussion. Unless you are intentionally and blatantly breaking the rules, there shouldn't be a problem. Unpopular speach should be given freedom as well. As long as no excessive rule breaking is going on, I think things should be left alone.

Political Correctness - my ass.

The point is, people TRYING to be PC are left in between a rock and a hard place. Pleaseing one person pisses off someone else.

That's why I say "fuck the whole thing." All people are monkeys. We are descended from apes and that's all we are. If someone feels special (and feels that others are not as good as them) because of their race, creed, nationality, whatever, it's because they are too stupid/ignorant to realize that we are all nothing but biochemical reactions.

I hate racial loyalty, racial classification, all of it. It all centers on superiority complexes and inferiority complexes. And yes, racial pride IS RACISM, IMO. It comes from feeling superior about your racial/enthic background. If you are superior, that implies inferiority elsewhere. It is racist, and I hate it.

You're entitled to your opinion in my book, certainly. I don't think you or anyone should get "warned" unless there is malicious name calling or blatantly racist ideas being posted. But of course, I will also post my opinion.

I just don't want this to get out of hand with the name calling and the punishment being dealt. Can't we discuss this with a minimum of emotions people?

Mezurashi

Jun 11th, 2007, 10:23 AM

The point is, people TRYING to be PC are left in between a rock and a hard place. Pleaseing one person pisses off someone else.

That's why I say "fuck the whole thing." All people are monkeys. We are descended from apes and that's all we are. If someone feels special (and feels that others are not as good as them) because of their race, creed, nationality, whatever, it's because they are too stupid/ignorant to realize that we are all nothing but biochemical reactions.

I hate racial loyalty, racial classification, all of it. It all centers on superiority complexes and inferiority complexes. And yes, racial pride IS RACISM, IMO. It comes from feeling superior about your racial/enthic background. If you are superior, that implies inferiority elsewhere. It is racist, and I hate it.

You're entitled to your opinion in my book, certainly. I don't think you or anyone should get "warned" unless there is malicious name calling or blatantly racist ideas being posted. But of course, I will also post my opinion.

I just don't want this to get out of hand with the name calling and the punishment being dealt. Can't we discuss this with a minimum of emotions people?

ok - let's try this again.

I made a Negative Comment about Political Correctness in a thread dealing with the Negativity of Political Correctness and the next thing I know I am circled by the wagons of the Politically Correct Power Rangers - decrying my statements as Heresy against the Word Of PC. so now I know how people who used to think the world was round were treated.

alternate points of view and severe emotions aside - all of you defenders of PC ideals seem to be either White North American European Christian Western Culture types or enamoured of some babe on the net. yet the babe on the net who says, **I know quite a few and it IS a very common sentiment amongst the immigrant Asians. Chinese, Japanese and Koreans especially hate being lumped together because for illogical and dated reasons they can't tolerate eachother. Most Asians have not left their intolerance and lack of respect for other Asians back in Asia and have brought it here. I hear so many stories of family turmoil over this from my Asian friends who come to Canada and want to have a relationship with an Asian from another nation.** isn't attacked for lumping all the Asians together in her response.

Oriental is a Power Word - it used to mean the Place To Go, the Place To Be, the Place Where Good Things Come From. I would rather be called an Oriental because it Places me effectively while lumping me in with other cultures. Divesting that term and giving me a geophysical name Disempowers the word to begin with. Oriental was Not considered derogatory by most of us yellow skinned folk - speaking as a yellow skiined folk who lived and hung out with yellow skinned folk All Of My Life.

now - I encounter over a million people in person per average year given where I work. Most of those people are tourists - true - but they are a sampling of their cultures where they are from. here are some of the things said to my face with a smile in the past ten days .

"Gee, you speak Engllish real good." "Are you sure you know what you told me?" "Funny, I'd have thought you were white." "Don't take this wrong, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were born here."

These statements were made to me (and not At me) by well meaning people who happened to be white and happened to be American and happened to think they were being nice. THIS IS THE RESULT OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS I OBJECT TO.

and anyone who can't understand this is lost to the world. Not everything that is meant to be helpful ends up being that way - and the Road To Hell is Paved with Good Intentions they say. for a better example of this think back to the big shift when McDonalds Corp. gave up styrofoam packaging for paper. Net result was more pollution, wasted energy and landfill waste because it takes 700 times the electricity and produces 50 times the waste to make paper cups instead of styrofoam ones. we ended up poisoning more of the oceans because we felt guilty about eating out of styrofoam.

and I may seem racist to you - but You know where I stand because I am Not PC. I am me and I state how I feel. A PC Power Ranger can pretend to be anyone they want - Political Correctness provides a script for disguising the truly bigoted. I guess that must be why so many people Defend it so Excessively.

(p.s. - sorry about the alcoholic wife beater crack, but I grew up in a place where most Dutchmen I knew happened to be degenerate assholes. I was just trying to show you that even Personal Experience isn't necessarily accurate when it comes to societal assumptions - but then hormonally charged others stepped in, it seems).

Becks

Jun 11th, 2007, 7:58 PM

all of you defenders of PC ideals seem to be either White North American European Christian Western Culture types or enamoured of some babe on the net. yet the babe on the net

Excuse me? Nowhere did anyone call me a babe and no one is enamoured with me. I'm not Christian and last time I checked you ARE complaining about PC standards that have been set for Western Culture....REGARDLESS of ethnicity, this is a Western country.

**I know quite a few and it IS a very common sentiment amongst the immigrant Asians. Chinese, Japanese and Koreans especially hate being lumped together because for illogical and dated reasons they can't tolerate eachother. Most Asians have not left their intolerance and lack of respect for other Asians back in Asia and have brought it here. I hear so many stories of family turmoil over this from my Asian friends who come to Canada and want to have a relationship with an Asian from another nation.** isn't attacked for lumping all the Asians together in her response.

First off, I didn't lump all Asians together. I said MOST of the IMMIGRANT Asians. Please prove to me this isn't true. From my experience Canadian-born Asians tend to weed this sort of sentiment out and not listen to their elders with such sentiments.
- One of my best friends in her twenties to this day endures rude comments from other family members because her mother and father are Chinese and Japanese and decided to marry.
- I have a Korean friend who was kicked out of the house because she's dating a Chinese guy.
- I have seen Asian friends get yelled at and cursed because they are Chinese and Japanese in descent and when an immigrant elder tries to speak to them in Mandarin or Japanese and they say they don't speak the language.
- My friend works for a dentist named Mr. Lau who was hiring a receptionist and because he was Chinese-Canadian and advertised for the position saying applicants must speak fluent English, he received hate mail from other Asians for not giving him own people a chance. Why? She explained because some Asians assume that only White people can speak fluent English or that Asians who speak fluent English are 'bananas' aren't worthy to be recognized by their community.

Let's not also be ignorant to the fact that it was Asians and Indos and not White people who coined the terms 'banana' and 'coconut' to describe people of their own ethnicity who have 'turned their back on their culture' and become what is mistakenly referred to as 'White'. Since when is moving to a Western country and adopting that culture a) a bad thing or b) becoming White?

I'm sure if you grew up in the Lower Mainland you would know that what I am talking about is actually very correct and is a problem that has been addressed and written about and researched a million times. The Vancouver Sun termed it "The Immigrant Syndrome" and numerous Canadians of Asian and Indo descent have reached out to the people in those communities to be more tolerant of one another. If you believe there is no Asian-on-Asian descrimination than you're wrong. I see it everyday in my field.

Even though my family is White we are still new to Canada and have been here less than 60 years. My family had a different culture and came here knowing they would have to adapt and were proud to do so and my grandparents and great-parents, have died happy to have had the opportunity to live here.

Oriental is a Power Word - it used to mean the Place To Go, the Place To Be, the Place Where Good Things Come From. I would rather be called an Oriental because it Places me effectively while lumping me in with other cultures. Divesting that term and giving me a geophysical name Disempowers the word to begin with. Oriental was Not considered derogatory by most of us yellow skinned folk - speaking as a yellow skiined folk who lived and hung out with yellow skinned folk All Of My Life.

That's your choice and your opinion. I personally know that my friends don't like the term. Many Asian public figures have spoken out about how degorgatory they find it and thus using 'Asian' came to be. How is terming you Oriental place you any differently in the world than Asian when it describes people of the Orient?

Hey, in that case, you're now Yellow. If White, Black and Brown people are referred to by their skin colour and it's PC amongst those cultures to do so, then you can be Yellow. Now how do you feel about a White person calling you Yellow?

now - I encounter over a million people in person per average year given where I work. Most of those people are tourists - true - but they are a sampling of their cultures where they are from. here are some of the things said to my face with a smile in the past ten days .

"Gee, you speak Engllish real good." "Are you sure you know what you told me?" "Funny, I'd have thought you were white." "Don't take this wrong, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were born here."

I too work in the public sector and this is what I've been subjected to:

- Japanese man who at a work conference asked me to perform acts on him because he was drunk and under the assumption that all White girls are easy and will take money for sex.

- Asians and Indos who refer to me on a regular basis as Aryan because I'm blonde and blue-eyed even though to someone like me, that is a harsh and derogatory term.

- Korean friend's mother who won't have me in her home because she's an immigrant and in Korea they are widely taught that White men are pedophiles and White people carry diseases such as HIV and 'being gay'.

Has this made me angry like you? No. They're either misinformed or ignorant and I can't help that. Do I let it eat at me? No. I just hope that one day people who move to Canada will be able to leave the ignorant views in their home country.

See Mezurashi, there's a difference between being PC and having manners. Being PC encompasses very little and not everything that you take in an un-PC way is actually un-PC. What you've said is not all un-PC but a lot of it shows you lack respect and manners and are maybe a tad sexist and racist.

You seem very angry, and I can guess why and I'm sure a lot of my Asian friends would garner the same ideas but saying so would be rude and un-PC. I come from an ethinically mixed group of close friends and I'm sure you haven't. That's all I'll venture to say.

Being more polite, non-judgemental, less angry about things and not 'making mountains out of mole hills' might help you to get along better with others and not take every little bad comment someone makes to you regarding your ethinicity so seriously.

- signed the young woman who is Scandinavian/Dutch but often mistaken for a German Aryan and has learned to brush that off and doesn't mind being called White.

August_Sonereal

Jun 11th, 2007, 8:21 PM

I'm mixed, and no matter where I go I'm mixed, or "Mexican", "Latino", and sometimes white.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 11th, 2007, 11:13 PM

edit:

Removed asshole content from my post.

liberdave

Jun 11th, 2007, 11:41 PM

I think people just need to learn that some people just plain don't like them for stupid reasons and they need to deal with it. It can be ignorant and detrimental to prejudge, although sometimes it can be useful. Regardless, if someone desires to call me a derogatory term then so be it; if I deem it necessary to change their minds, then I will.

Here's a mental exercise, sit back and think about all of the words that could reasonably be used to describe yourself from any particular view. I bet everyone could list over 50. The fact that all of those words can only, at most, be used to describe a handful of people at any given time, reinforces the fact that generalizations are just that.

The map is not the territory, or the word is not the person.

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_Of_Images), you might be enlightened.

Mezurashi

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:32 AM

I'm not Christian and last time I checked you ARE complaining about PC standards that have been set for Western Culture....REGARDLESS of ethnicity, this is a Western country.

Yes I am complaining about PC standards because this WHOLE THREAD was about Political Correctness Gone Mad, or have you forgotten this thread was to Criticize PC ethics, Not support them as you have been doing.

and as for Western Country - I'd thought that Tolerance was part and parcel with PC ethics, as well as Celebrating Diversity. How does one Celebrate Diversity by denying the influence or the very existence of other cultures? How does one Justify claiming that PC ethics are ok (re; the Asian moniker) then go on with Celebrating Diversity (after coining a term, like Asian, which REDUCES diversity in it's very application).

First off, I didn't lump all Asians together. I said MOST of the IMMIGRANT Asians. Please prove to me this isn't true. **I know quite a few and it IS a very common sentiment amongst the immigrant Asians. Chinese, Japanese and Koreans especially hate being lumped together because for illogical and dated reasons they can't tolerate eachother. Most Asians have not left their intolerance and lack of respect for other Asians back in Asia and have brought it here.**

Ok, now I was 'warned' for making an extreme statement about the Dutch males of my experience in my life- let's carry that through. You say that you've met enough Asian people to be able to make such distinctions without a sense of guilt or perhaps even profiling, yet if I used your same justifications and operational procedures I could easily claim that my statement about Dutch Males was not only true but as valid as your statement about Asians in general - because I grew up around a bunch of degenerate, alcoholic Dutch males who were racist, chauvenist to the point of misogyny and I hadn't met a counter example until I was well into my teens. Would this make any biased opinion about the Dutch males, or the Dutch in general, any more or less valid than your expereinces with Asians? Does any of this change the fact that everything you've said, while I Will Support your Statements and I have seen it myself, could be construed as Racist Profiling by some overly sensitive banana or oreo or curried vanilla - and does their 'sensitivity' negate the feelings they have?

Don't think I am a Japanese Fundamentalist, go read my musings on Modern Japanese Culture in the morals and ethics section thread about pornographic kiddie porn anime and you will see that I am far more critical of my own culture-of-origin than I am of my North American current culture. And I am not defending being Japanese, nor denying that I USED to dislike being called a Chink. Used to because back then I preferred Oriental to Chink - now I prefer Chink to Asian because even if the guy's a bigot and got my race wrong, at least he cared enough to try and label me specifically. This is far more respect than I get from supposedly non-racist folk of all shapes and colours all the time.

Let's not also be ignorant to the fact that it was Asians and Indos and not White people who coined the terms 'banana' and 'coconut' to describe people of their own ethnicity who have 'turned their back on their culture' and become what is mistakenly referred to as 'White'. Since when is moving to a Western country and adopting that culture a) a bad thing or b) becoming White?

The terms were coined out of the same fear of 'Loss Of Culture' as was felt by Black folk in the USA during the 30's, 40's, 50's and so on. The blacks had their Uncle Tom (and worse) terms for what they felt was a dilution of their distinctness into the melting pot of American society. The yellow skinned folk of the west coast came from a long history of bigoted oppression which hasn't ended yet, it's just that the bigotry is less obvious and the range of people being oppressed has widened.

I am not denying anything you have said - but I am NOT NOT NOT saying that PC ethics are the opposite of that. So let me try and explain something which has furballed my subconscious for decades;

PC Ethics and the Obfuscation of the Racial Bigotry Issue help PERPETUATE racism by allowing it to hide and fester behind screens of Polite Terms and Scripts for those who hate anyone not like them. In the past the Racists were usually easy to identify because there were no Polite ways to ID people of other origin - just Politer ways (i.e. - black american versus jigaboo). And I have found myself having to double check so many more times now - ever since there started to be widely accepted Polite ways to call someone a fucking chink. By Ignoring, denying and Hiding bigotry behind walls of manners we have given a safe place for the evil to fester and grow.

I KNOW without a doubt that I have racism within me because it was taught to me by my parents and the people around me. But by accepting that it exists and trying to keep it in check, I do more with it to reduce it than if I pretended it wasn't there at all.

I'm sure if you grew up in the Lower Mainland you would know that what I am talking about is actually very correct and is a problem that has been addressed and written about and researched a million times. The Vancouver Sun termed it "The Immigrant Syndrome" and numerous Canadians of Asian and Indo descent have reached out to the people in those communities to be more tolerant of one another. If you believe there is no Asian-on-Asian descrimination than you're wrong. I see it everyday in my field.

Actually I grew up in Southern Alberta (hence my experiences with selective groups within societal cultural boundaries) and before you condemn the whole Immigrant Syndrome thing I would remind you that the architecture and roads of Canada aren't what the First Nations folk had in place before the Brits and French arrived. again it's funny how you seem to focusing on the Asian immigrant aspect and not the Romanians, Russians, Greeks and Columbians who've brought so many of their negative histories along with them. Is this because you're not aware of it, it's not as much a news item, or are you selectively myopic?

I personally know that my friends don't like the term. Many Asian public figures have spoken out about how degorgatory they find it and thus using 'Asian' came to be. How is terming you Oriental place you any differently in the world than Asian when it describes people of the Orient?

I've explained this more than once and it's obvious you aren't catching my meaning so I'll have to leave it at, "If you haven't figured it out by now, you never will."

Hey, in that case, you're now Yellow. If White, Black and Brown people are referred to by their skin colour and it's PC amongst those cultures to do so, then you can be Yellow. Now how do you feel about a White person calling you Yellow?

The VERY FIRST POST I made on this issue has me calling myself yellow skinned or yellow. How do you feel about being exposed as someone who DOESN'T GET ALL THE INFORMATION before REACTING? Try Reading Everything instead of just the stuff that you want to slag. And as for white folk calling me names, after being beaten nearly to unconsciousness by the white Vice Principal when I was in Fourth Grade, name calling means little when it comes from whitey.

Has this made me angry like you? No. They're either misinformed or ignorant and I can't help that. Do I let it eat at me? No. I just hope that one day people who move to Canada will be able to leave the ignorant views in their home country.

I have feminist friends who would say that you are a 'floormat female' who has been conditioned to 'accept' such rude behaviour as a result of social conditioning and who justifies her allowing herself to be walked on with rationalizations of being 'better' than those who walk upon them.

in a sense, this is simply Reverse Racism and I am familiar with it. You see, when I was a kid and got beat up by groups of whites, or even one gbig adult, my parents would explain to me that White People hated me for being better than they were and that I was not to seek revenge. It Was Not Their Fault they weren't Born Japanese and I should feel pity for the poor lesser folk.

See Mezurashi, there's a difference between being PC and having manners. Being PC encompasses very little and not everything that you take in an un-PC way is actually un-PC. What you've said is not all un-PC but a lot of it shows you lack respect and manners and are maybe a tad sexist and racist.

and Knowing that have negative aspects about me informs you with greater clarity than if I had simply caved and 'acted nicely' after the revelation that I am supposed to treat female posters differently than males. consider this, those who don't deserve any respect from me get shallow politeness with no personal investment on my part, they don't deserve anything of me. that I cared enough to continue to try and return the thread to anti-PC rather than pro-PC is perhaps an indication that those who posted deserve more from me than surface level obseqiousness.

You seem very angry, and I can guess why and I'm sure a lot of my Asian friends would garner the same ideas but saying so would be rude and un-PC. I come from an ethinically mixed group of close friends and I'm sure you haven't. That's all I'll venture to say.

Actually the only people I know personally who are specifially Japanese are my immediate family. I grew up surrounded by Dutch, Itallian, Ukranian, Filipino, Chinese, Laotian, Vietnamese, British, Norwegian, German, Nigerian, Salvadoran and other folk. I used to get in trouble with my parents because I hung out with non-Japanese kids (and the first time I brought a white girl home on a date was a comedy in manners indeed). and perhaps this will help you to see that your perceptions can be way off. My curent 'group' includes Aussies, Kiwis, Irish, Scottish, French, Itallian, Cameroonese, Bengalese, a couple of Sherpa's from Nepal, a bred-to-the-boner Newfie who was born in Saudi and many, many Jewish folk from all over the world.

Maybe you, and others, assume I am harshly racist because in my comments you felt something twinge, maybe I hit a bit too close to the bone for your taste, maybe I reminded you of a bad event in your past you'd thought you'd forgotten and put behind you. Maybe you're reacting in the same way that a closeted homosexual professes to hate gays and acts profoundly homophobic.

I am not afraid of differences and I am not about to discount them in order to make things more Tolerable. Tolerance, by definition, means one Endures something Unpleasant.

If I'm Tolerated what does that Really say about the people who Tolerate me?

I don't Tolerate the differences between me and others, I embrace them in their totality, bad and good, and I recognize and acknowledge it all as what it is instead of sugar coating it to make the evening news sound softer to grandma and the nieces.

And I have NEVER expected ANYONE to change the way they do things, I have only Criticized that which I find problematic - or in this case, just another uppity Yellow man who won't keep his place.

The more things change the more they stay the same, it seems.

Jun 12th, 2007, 2:35 PM

Ok I responded about your blast towards Beck, and I took an offense to your remarks about the Dutch and felt it was uncalled for in her case, I know this person, and I felt she didn't deserve the comment, thus my warning. Seeing as I don't know you from Adam's house cat, perhaps I should have taken the time to get to know you better before I jumped your bones. You seem an intelligent poster, so excuse my overzealous actions, I tend to defend people I respect Regards.

lycanox

Jun 12th, 2007, 2:55 PM

Lol...where are you from in the Netherlands Lycanox?

Thanks for asking.
I live near Veghel, An small city near Den Bosch in North Brabant.

Sorry for the late response. I am currently busy finishing my study and wasn't in the mood to read every things that pops up on the site.

Mezurashi

Jun 12th, 2007, 3:10 PM

and since I've been banging the drum about not hiding stuff I'd thought I'd share a non-PC moment of understanding I had today - an older chinese woman, shopkeeper in this case, and an elderly greek man (which I assumed because he had a Hellas lapel pin) were conversing ahead of me while I waited. neighbourhood corner store dynamic to the fullest possible stereotype (there was even an old, old Drink Coke wall ad made out of shaped tin, covered in dust and tarnish).

After I purchased my chocolate fix the woman asked me something in cantonese - I smiled and told her I wasn't chinese. she asked where I was from and the old greek guy pipes in that I'm korean, I smile and say I'm actually japanese and both of them tell me I didn't look it. not a trace of anti-anything sentiment to be felt - just plain old neighbourly curiosity. but behind me were two younger kids, I'd say chinese but I could be wrong, and they looked uncomfortable with what they were hearing. I didn't feel at all 'put upon' or anything - and I'm sure no one will deny that I can be extra-sensitive about this kind of crap - but observers did because it didn't fit into the current local area 'script' of the terms of harmonious co-residence and all that.

now, as I left the store, trying not to trip as I chewed, I thought about what had just happened (and I am capable of great superstitiousness) and it seemed to me that I was being shown something. not that the universe was catering to me, but more like I had brushed against a thread of whatever it is I've been posting about here. and, with that thought, an altercation ahead of me caught my attention. two guys, both 'Asian', were having it out over a parking space - the typical 'I got here first' thing.

I am a bit ashamed to say I pulled the 'accident spectator' reflex and stopped to watch, expecting possible fisticuffs and some free street theatre, or perhaps street reality TV would be a better metaphor. but it didn't devolve into physical violence - just a lot of yelling. and as one guy was getting into his car to drive off he looked the other square on and said, "Fucking Chink!"

maybe these guys have become so inured to the racial derogatory of the word that they have 'owned' it in the same way black culture owns the N word. when I was a teen I jokingly engaged in a short lived attempt at comedy theatre - an all Asian cast doing King Arthur called "Chink's In Armour" - ironically it was white authority that stopped it (which was the right thing to do, really, we were teenagers after all and would have gone way too far) and our collective parentals were somewhat mortified when informed of the true nature of our after school projects.

it is possible to gain understanding without going the PC route - maybe after all is said that is the simple point I was too emotionally freaked out to notice. I feel this route is more productive, if occasionally more uncomfortable, and can probably produce better results than socially mandated 'Tolerance Camps' and such. yeah, there are a lot of times that PC nomenclature has allowed discussion on levels we hadn't had before, but now that those avenues have been breached we can remember why we went there in the first place. and my objections to PC ethics misused by those with bad intent will always be.

and, *self-directed derisiveness* sometimes I just want to call some bastard a fucking chink myself. no halo here, just tarnish and cracks and (dare I say) chinks in the shell.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 12th, 2007, 7:27 PM

ok - let's try this again.

Yes, lets. We can start by dilligently searching my last post to find out where it is PC, since you seem to be on a crusade against it. Is it PC to say that racial pride is racism? HELL NO. I get crucified every time I say that.

I made a Negative Comment about Political Correctness in a thread dealing with the Negativity of Political Correctness and the next thing I know I am circled by the wagons of the Politically Correct Power Rangers - decrying my statements as Heresy against the Word Of PC. so now I know how people who used to think the world was round were treated.

Your statements weren't against PC. Calling you Asian OR Japanese can BOTH be considered PC depending on the level of understanding of the person saying it. Calling you a racist bastard for wanting to separate yourself into a racial classification is FAR from PC- the PC people want to LET you separate yourself into a racial classification and simply try to appease you and everyone else. My angle is NOT Politically Correct. I would be CRUCIFIED by the PC crowd for my veiws (of course, I always respond with "you're all a bunch of racist bastards" so in the end we all win :D)

alternate points of view and severe emotions aside - all of you defenders of PC ideals seem to be either White North American European Christian Western Culture types or enamoured of some babe on the net.

Really? Which poilitical side is pushing PC? Is it the one that's almost completely white (the conservative RIGHT) or the one that is much more racially diverse? (the liberal LEFT). Newsflash, it's the LEFT.

yet the babe on the net who says, **I know quite a few and it IS a very common sentiment amongst the immigrant Asians. Chinese, Japanese and Koreans especially hate being lumped together because for illogical and dated reasons they can't tolerate eachother. Most Asians have not left their intolerance and lack of respect for other Asians back in Asia and have brought it here. I hear so many stories of family turmoil over this from my Asian friends who come to Canada and want to have a relationship with an Asian from another nation.** isn't attacked for lumping all the Asians together in her response.

So first you hate PC and then you cry for the PC to defend you? As for me, I've mostly only read your posts in this thread. But do you not see that said babe is in between a rock and a hard place (mostly because she doesn't appear to have taken to MY understanding of the situation yet :D ::is egotistical bastard: )

If she calls you "Asian" you and people of like mind will bitch. If she calls you "Japanese" she's bound to get it wrong and piss of someone else. If she calls you "Oriental" she's bound to piss off the kids represented by the young man that recently handed Rosie her ass on Youtube (which ROCKED ASS, btw :D ). So what is she to do? Well, I would say that she should say this "I don't know what culture or racial decent you have, and frankly I don't give a rats ass. If you can deal with that than we can be friends. If not, go fuck yourself," but I just don't feel that she has the heart to do it.

Oriental is a Power Word - it used to mean the Place To Go, the Place To Be, the Place Where Good Things Come From. I would rather be called an Oriental because it Places me effectively while lumping me in with other cultures.
Divesting that term and giving me a geophysical name Disempowers the word to begin with. Oriental was Not considered derogatory by most of us yellow skinned folk - speaking as a yellow skiined folk who lived and hung out with yellow skinned folk All Of My Life.

Funny, when I'm not lumping all humans together and calling them moronic Apes that's the word I use for people with pale to yellowish skin, black hair, less oval/circular eyes, and languages that are very far away from latin/germanic/french languages. But what I don't understand is WHY THE FUCK DO YOU CARE?

I personally DO NOT GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT RACE/ CULTURE I AM LUMPED WITH if the people do not mean any ill will toward me.

Why the hell do you care? Why does it bother you?

now - I encounter over a million people in person per average year given where I work. Most of those people are tourists - true - but they are a sampling of their cultures where they are from. here are some of the things said to my face with a smile in the past ten days .

"Gee, you speak Engllish real good." "Are you sure you know what you told me?" "Funny, I'd have thought you were white." "Don't take this wrong, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were born here."

These statements were made to me (and not At me) by well meaning people who happened to be white and happened to be American and happened to think they were being nice. THIS IS THE RESULT OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS I OBJECT TO.

It is NOT the result of political correctness- it is the result of RACISM. Jesus how blind are you? They say that because they want to CLASSIFY YOU- THE ultimate PROOF of racist leanings.

and anyone who can't understand this is lost to the world. Not everything that is meant to be helpful ends up being that way - and the Road To Hell is Paved with Good Intentions they say.

Ok, now I am forced to side with you a little bit. I am NOT a fan of political correctness. Why? Because it's trying to please racist bastards. Those of you who want to be called certain things because of your precieved race want it PRECICELY because you are a RACIST BASTARD.

If all of you idiots (whether on the "PC people side" or the "call me a different word goddamn it" side) that infest my planet would get it through your thick skulls NOT ONE of you is special or different from anyone else, it wouldn't be a problem.

*EDIT- I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just that it's goddamned frustrating.

and I may seem racist to you - but You know where I stand because I am Not PC. I am me and I state how I feel. A PC Power Ranger can pretend to be anyone they want - Political Correctness provides a script for disguising the truly bigoted. I guess that must be why so many people Defend it so Excessively.

I'll give you that to a degree. But I think I've already made it clear that both YOU and the PC people are racist bastards.

(p.s. - sorry about the alcoholic wife beater crack, but I grew up in a place where most Dutchmen I knew happened to be degenerate assholes. I was just trying to show you that even Personal Experience isn't necessarily accurate when it comes to societal assumptions - but then hormonally charged others stepped in, it seems).

Well, whatever, I don't care anymore. I'm not upset, just passionate.

Anyway, here's my argument summed up. Please, tell me what you think.

1.) People who try to classify other people racially are racist bastards (other than for reasons of personal identification- for example "You'll see Joe at the airport. He's 6'4, black, has purple hair, and is fat. You can't miss him").

2.) People who WANT to be classified racially (again other than for reasons of personal identification) are racist bastards.

3.) Both Politically correct people and politically incorrect people fit into the above NON-racial classifications.

4.) The words we've been fighting over in this thread, "Asian," "Oriental" "Japanese" "Cantanese" "Caucasion" "white" "what the fuck ever"" are all equally stupid and racist- except when used for reasons of personal identification. By that I mean that identifying yourself and feeling a conncection with one specific race or group is completely idiotic. Also, wanting to classify someone into one race or group is also completely idiotic.

If you can't see that MY argument is against both the PC side and the "wah wah call me THIS particular race, you hurt my feelings!" then I don't know what to tell you.

I think you are being a racist baby, and I think the PC people are just being racist subtlely, despite their claims. Therefore, you're all racist bastards :D ("You're" means anyone who fits the above descriptions)

*the smiley is there to indicate that I am not calling you all names and I'm not trying to be malicious. I am just trying to make a point.

Hutton

Jun 12th, 2007, 8:08 PM

Has any one heard about the indian style of sitting down, the one with your legs crossed, it is now a bad thing and is demanded to be called criss cross apple sauce.

Sammy56

Jun 12th, 2007, 8:15 PM

Has any one heard about the indian style of sitting down, the one with your legs crossed, it is now a bad thing and is demanded to be called criss cross apple sauce.I've heard it called Indian style, but for the most part, in school and stuff, we were just told to sit cross-legged. I've never heard the "crisscross applesauce" thing. That sounds stupid.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 12th, 2007, 9:51 PM

I was always told to sit legs folded or site indian style....

Becks

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Mezurashi,

There's nothing that I don't understand about anything you've said. Now that you've pointed out that you have in fact NOT had contact with tons of Asians and that you're from Southern Alberta what we're trying to get across to each other are totally different. I live in an area with the highest immigrant and Asian immigrant concentration in Canada. You may not like the term Asian but it has become PC because Asians called out against the term Oriental as being racist. It's your choice to hate the term, but that's not general consensus in the Lower Mainland. The points we are trying to convey to each other may both be correct in our own eyes, because were observers of the cultures we live in, and having lived for a very short time in Southern Alberta I can tell you the cultures of S.Alberta and BC are VERY different.

I understand that many Asians may feel that they lose their culture when coming to Canada and take it out on their youth who abandon their mother culture and become Westernized. Canada is a place of tolerance but there is a difference between cultural acceptance/tolerance and the ability for numerous cultures to co-exist. The fact is that Canada is a Western culture and it's inevitable that those that are born and raised here will adapt to this culture and lose their ancestor's culture.

Can you not understand as a Canadian girl who happens to be White why such hatred to your own race is wrong no matter the reason, especially when it's made her close friends cry to be yelled at because they are Canadian but have a non-White ethnic background? My European ancestors came here with different cultures, knew they were coming into a different culture and adapted. There are no hateful terms for them. If you can't also see why being deemed “White” when you’ve adapted the Canadian culture and not just Canadian in culture would bother a White person than I can't help you to understand.

I have feminist friends who would say that you are a 'floormat female' who has been conditioned to 'accept' such rude behaviour as a result of social conditioning and who justifies her allowing herself to be walked on with rationalizations of being 'better' than those who walk upon them.

That wouldn't surprise me. As a woman who believes feminism has done a great deal for women in the past, I believe that lately it seems to be setting us back with a new 'FemiNazi' approach many feminists take, I would tell your feminist friends to calm themselves down. I never said such behaviour was acceptable and I let the Japanese business man know such comments could get him into awkward situations and were unacceptable. I just let such things not get to me. Ask any of my friends, family and ex-boyfriends that have cheated, lied or hurt me; I am NOT a floormat female.

It's funny that you should bring that up, because the largest amount of discrimination I have ever come up against is not from men, or people of other cultures or races, but from Canadian overly feminist women who 'hate' me because I'm tall, blonde, blue-eyed, athletic, intelligent, hardworking and get along well with men. For some reason they believe the only reason I have gotten so far in my career is because I must be sleeping with people to get jobs. Being a strong woman who does well because of intelligence and hard work is a restraint for “FemiNazi” women who haven't gotten far in life because they can't use the excuse that they're "being oppressed because it's a man's world". Therefore, I wouldn't get along with your feminist friends very well.

You even touched a bit on that yourself when you took Shortround's comment that I was a nice girl to mean that I was a "nice looking girl" instead of being a genial person.

Maybe you, and others, assume I am harshly racist because in my comments you felt something twinge,

It wasn't actually anything you said about the Dutch that upset me, because again, I am a duck who lets the water run off my back about such things. It was more that you came across as if you spoke for every Asian and that PC means that "the White man is bringing you down". Now that we have cleared up that we're victims of our backgrounds and locations in which we grew up, I can see where you're coming from.

I do think you're intelligent Mezurashi (if I didn't I wouldn't be conversing with you) and after your last comments I don't think you're as "angry" a person as I thought you were and you too can be a "duck". I used to be a bit of an angry person but I learned that it would ruin me as a person, and coupled with my readily admittable tendency to take on my family's "Swedish temper" (my Papa has it bad), I would die of a heart attack by the time I was 40. It was only stopping me from getting further ahead in life.

I look forward to discussing things with you in the future Mezurashi. Take care!

Becks

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Becks
Lol...where are you from in the Netherlands Lycanox?

Thanks for asking.
I live near Veghel, An small city near Den Bosch in North Brabant.

Ah, nice! My family is from the Rotterdam area and...NO JOKES :P.....Friesland. I know the Frisians and other Netherlanders have a sort of love/hate relationship.

Mezurashi

Jun 13th, 2007, 9:07 AM

MaximumPain

Jun 13th, 2007, 9:33 AM

Every one just needs to get over themselves and be a human being first. But its so damn hard because most of us are wrapped up in our own culture. And its a mad melting pot out their with so much input from media, friends, neighbors, coworkers, and of course family. For most of humanity we developed with far less input then we do today. Plus the world is so small now where anyone can instantly communicate around the world. Or jump a plane and be almost anywhere in a day. I think this is all just growing pains from this culture overload.

lycanox

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:03 AM

Ah, nice! My family is from the Rotterdam area and...NO JOKES :P.....Friesland. I know the Frisians and other Netherlanders have a sort of love/hate relationship.

Nah, that's only above the rivers. I live below the rivers where we rather pick on Limburg.

Mezurashi

Jun 13th, 2007, 8:10 PM

I think this is all just growing pains from this culture overload.

:Bow:

and this whiny, bitchy infant-who-thinks-he's-an-adult keeps forgetting the meta aspects because of my personal involvement. and forgetting that no matter how long I think I've been here, it doesn't add up to squat in the big picture.

for all my attempts to 'see beyond the frame' and so on, I am still guilty of indulging myself in the things I dislike or even detest from time to time. we all are, nothing spectacularly incisive or intuitive there. and I keep thinking it's about time I got over it. and I light up a cigarette because I get all anxious (a common behaviour in me).

funny how I 'know' intellectually that 'getting over it' and quitting smoking are pretty much the same sort of concern for me - I 'know' that holding onto either bad habit isn't good for me, is doing me daily damage, and that the best thing for me would be to just quit, let it go, get the frak on with it.

and I keep telling myself, "I will ... soon."

I'll keep you posted on which one I make more headway on, lol. maybe I'll try and gin up an animation of a cancer cell and a raging nip geek and the size of either will determine how successfully I am eradicating them, rofl.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 13th, 2007, 8:29 PM

CT - while I agree with your assessments of my emotionally charged posts, I'd like to point out a few contradictory things to help clear things a bit - at least go from mud to muddy water at least ...

part of my 'hypocrisy' around PC ethics is that the reactions I see from the PC supporters mirror in every way a scene from South Park where the parents are being led through the Hall Of Tolerance and being given a lecture about how everyone, everywhere, is to be Tolerated and so on, how we all have a place and there is no room for hatred - until they see a guy smoking in the parking lot and they gang together and drive him away with hate and anger ("Smoker! Go Die evil Smoker!).

That was a funny episode. And I see your point.

much of my anti-PC reactions are from the same base as those who are anti-religion or anti-government - we who have seen the hyprocrisy or been burned by it tend to find the absurd hypocrisy too much to handle.

Again, I see your point. That's why I am also generally anti-PC.

That I would prefer to be ID'd by origin culture is a personal preference, but since the PC ethic allows for the Minority to hold everyone else hostage to their whims I don't see how my personal views are any less valid than those of the PC types.

Yes, it is a personal preference. But I still think mine is the only ONE is moral.

you opinion on the whole ID thing is valid, but only from your POV in the sense that it seems unlikely you've been displaced for political/economic/religious reasons in your life.

:D hehe...

nor have you (I Assume, feel free to kick my ass for assuming) ever had to re-structure your entire paradigm overnight due to the relocation of your parents. Moving from one town to another can be bad enough for a kid (or neurotic adult) - try going across the Pacific.

I won't kick your ass about it, but know that I've lived in seven states, my father went to prison for 8 years, my stepdad was a fugitive (didn't know it at the time, but THAT was why we moved so much) and frequent demostic violence offender, lived in shelters (homeless and battered womans), etc. etc. I won't divulge any more details. :D Maybe people with my sort of point of view are usually fat spoiled Americans. But I CERTAINLY am NOT (funny though, people always assume that about me. Do I really appear to be that well adjusted? :D ). [EDIT- I know my life isn't the worst so don't lambast me about wanting attention/sympathy. Just had to point out that the assumption about me was incorrect.] EDIT 2- can't believe I forgoe this: I've lived in foster homes twice, once volluntary placement and once by order of the courts. How's that for displacement? :D Mabye not the same as moving accros the Pacific, but having your family torn apart can have its affects.

I don't DEMAND that you call me anything at all - my comments were on my POV regarding those who just use the blanket PC terms to absolve themselves of any further personal obligation to learn more about the people around them. Yes it was emotionally charged and full of vitriol, but so are my posts decrying Japanese social acceptance of abusive anime imagery. Should I stop being a 'crybaby' just because a few caucasians found me annoying? or a few japanese? or a few manga fanatics? or a few complacent people who haven't been asked to closely examine a personal reaction to the PC ethic?

Nah, you're entitled to your perspective as long as your relatively civil, just like me. I still say you're wrong though, unless you conform to my "one race of apes" view. ;)

now, though the PC movement was originally started as a Left thing, the Right jumped right on the bandwagon and embraced it for all they were worth. this alone should tell you something about the value of PC ethics as a form of obfuscation of reality - any time the far Right latches onto a Left wing creation that fast there has to be Something Horribly Wrong.

in fact, in the U.S. right now the PC ethic has been warped, after 9/11, to the point where PC ethics in the USA can be easily compared to the propoganda of WW2. Don't Rock The Boat. Loose Lips Sink Ships. Profiling Saves Lives. Homeland Defense Is Working. Why Were You In Cuba, boy?

Perhaps the original INTENT of PC ethics were good, I don't doubt they were, but it is the Application and Modification of the whole thing to suit the purposes of specific interest groups which is my major malfunction.

Communism, on paper, as a theory, sounds right dandy for the warm and fuzzy complete community ideal. Applied Communism wasn't nearly so fun and rosy. So it is with the PC ethic - sounds good on paper...

Yep, good point. I am against PC on the grounds that it creates division. I certainly am not on your side of the issue, obviously. I think both sides of this debate should be abolished for one that focuses on unity rather than distinction.

But history has shown that my side will not likely win this debate for a long, long time.

Mezurashi

Jun 14th, 2007, 9:14 AM

But history has shown that my side will not likely win this debate for a long, long time.

but there is always hope - perhaps I am one of the 'Transitioners' of this time, my feet are mired in the trangressions of the past while my head is tring to go beyond the future. when I get into debates (and/or blowouts) about this kind of stuff I usually wind up feeling like Moses - I can try my best to 'Lead My People' to the promised land but I can't go there myself.

thing is, I can't see that I would Deserve to go to the promised land given that I am still wrapped within the anger and prejudice of my upbringing, hence the occasional bursts of hyprocrisy.

maybe maybe maybe there will be a hugely affecting social paradigm shift within my lifetime, I always hope for such, but far too many of us (and I include myself) have too much to lose (daily comfort and luxury) to be willing to risk it all for a change for the better.

revolutions occur when most of the people have nothing left to lose - and in North America that condition has been efficiently forestalled by $50.00 DVD players, American Idol and McDonalds. the Romans knew what they were doing, it seems, at least in the short term.