Proving GOD [Archive] - Armageddon Online Forums

Wastelandwarrior

Jun 9th, 2007, 6:13 PM

To all the Christians on this sight. Why is it so hard to PROVE GOD as I have so miserably tried to do in a recent thread? I know I probably wasn't anointed to try and do it, I definately wasn't called to do it, and I know I don't need to defend GOD or Yeshua, they can do that by themselves. Is the unbeleivers heart so hard that they can't accept it as truth? That GOD loves them and wants to have a relationship with them. Why is it so hard to believe? What makes them want to lash out and want PROOF that He exists? Someone help me wit htis age old question. Give me your input. All you unbeleivers, lemme ask ya this. Why don't you beleive? Is it so hard to believe that there is a GOD that created Everything? Just curious.

well i guess its hard to believe because i think rationaly....
i could try to trick myself into beleiveing in this so called GOD you speek of ... but that would be worse then not beleiveing, that would be lieing to your self...
which is retarted because if there really was a good he would know u dont believe for real anyways...
now the reason its so hard for us to believe is probably because we werent brainwashed into reading bible storys for from age 5....
ANYONE with UNWAVERING FAITH THAT THERE IS A GOD AND HE LOVES YOU, has lived there whole life being told by there parents that there is a god and im sure when you were young they pumped that crap in ur heads ... not because they want to brainwash you but because they were taught the same thing....
try looking at things from more then one prespective then make a moral judgement...
how can you make a judgement call about anything if you have only seen 1 side of the story....
and no im not saying that evolution is the other side of the story... There are many sides and many storys but atleast there is some "scientific proof" that evolution took place in some form or another....
which leads me too my next reason for not believeing...
THE BIBLE...
the only real "proof" (if you could call it that) that you guys have is a book that was writen by "MAN"
not god... and we all know how man likes to exadurate truths...
this book dose have alot of life lessons to offer, but so do disney movies...
do you believe in santa clause.....
didnt think so...
god and santa are both fictional characters...
MAN MADE THEM UP........

now look ....
jesus was a real person....
i dont doubt that...
son of god???
i dont think so, if anything he saw the flaws and the mistakes that the jews in power were makeing and decided he was going to speek out against it...
obviously he was willing to die for his beliefs ... but so were many great men and women in past history, like william wallice for example...
so in the end im going to ask you the same question you asked me...
How can you, without any physical proof actualy believe in something you have never seen, or heard ?

and i dont want any bible quotations...
that is bullshit...
THINK FOR YOUR SELF , put all that religion aside for a second... if you can
and tell me the real reason why you believe so strongly in this fairy tale...

im betting the answer would be cuz my mom and dad taught me too...
and that relationship you spoke of that god so desperately wants to have with me???
well ill tell you when i was younger i use to want to believe there was a god...
ive even spoken to god stareing at the night sky...
but guess what...
he never answers back....
for someone who loves me and wants to have a relationship with me he sure is hard to get a hold of...

allseeingeye

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:22 PM

No, it most definately ISN'T so hard to believe in a creator. I have little issue with belief in a creator.

However, it IS hard to believe in a God that is all powerful, all loving, and LET'S HINDUS BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE HINDUISM! (as alluded to in THIS (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showpost.php?p=155866&postcount=38) post)

It is RIDICULOUS to say that a LOVING and ALL POWERFUL God would EVER let something like that happen.

Christianity, as you believe it, is PATHETIC logically AND MORALLY (your God as the cheif example).

Does that answer your question?

EDIT- I don't mean to outright slam your faith, but YOU ASKED why it is hard for me to believe.

No, that really does not answer my question. Christianity as I believe it, is believed not only by me, there are lotsa folks that believe in the exact same GOD and Christ that I believe in, how can that many people be that far off?

Well good, I'm happy to hear that you at least believe in something that created everything around ya. it's kewl that you can outright slam my faith, I can handle that.

Now to explain Why a loving God can do that to non-believers. He is a HOLY GOD, so Holy in fact that sinners perish before Him, and He does not like that to happen to his creation. That is why He sent Yeshua, His Son, to us. He closes the gap between us and Him and Yeshua washes away the sins of the world. if He didn't everyone would die before a HOLY GOD.

Is it really kinda pointless to try and explain it to ya? How is it pathetic and Morally wrong?? But thanks for responding, your opinion is noted.

allseeingeye

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:23 PM

Well I do believe in god but I can understand why people don't believe in God. I say this because of the way some people have to live their life's. If you feel you have a miserable life and nothing goes your way and you are never happy then it must be hard to believe in a God who is meant to give you hope and believe that something good will happen but nothing good ever happens to you. Just my opinion

Indeed, that would make ya not want to believe in GOD.

allseeingeye

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:27 PM

There are god knows how Manny cults, religions, sub religions and other believe systems in the world. How are we supposed to know which one of them is the right one without some prove. Just check CNN too see what happens when people make the wrong choice.

Besides. God may love me and wants a relationship with me. But then again, so does that girl at school and the giant spaghetti monster in the sky.

I love spaghetti. One way to tell is to ask the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you astray. But I suppose you gatta believe in that first huh?

Sammy56

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:42 PM

No, that really does not answer my question. Christianity as I believe it, is believed not only by me, there are lotsa folks that believe in the exact same GOD and Christ that I believe in, how can that many people be that far off?The Logical Fallacy of Argumentum ad populum. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) A long time ago, a majority of the world thought the world was flat. Since so many believed it, it couldn't be wrong! Right? (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050102.html)

He is a HOLY GOD, so Holy in fact that sinners perish before HimWhy? He is the creator of all of us, so you say. Why would he want us to perish like that? What happened to all-loving?

Is the unbeleivers heart so hard that they can't accept it as truth? That GOD loves them and wants to have a relationship with them.It's not necessarily that we don't believe in god. Some of us are theists. We just don't believe Christianity is the exclusive way. I find your concept of hell to be cruel and hypocritical. I wouldn't wish eternal damnation on the people I hate most. Yet some all-loving, merciful God would? What the hell? That doesn't make sense.

allseeingeye

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:46 PM

as said by WLW:

now the reason its so hard for us to believe is probably because we werent brainwashed into reading bible storys for from age 5....
ANYONE with UNWAVERING FAITH THAT THERE IS A GOD AND HE LOVES YOU, has lived there whole life being told by there parents that there is a god and im sure when you were young they pumped that crap in ur heads ... not because they want to brainwash you but because they were taught the same thing....
try looking at things from more then one prespective then make a moral judgement...
how can you make a judgement call about anything if you have only seen 1 side of the story....
and no im not saying that evolution is the other side of the story... There are many sides and many storys but atleast there is some "scientific proof" that evolution took place in some form or another....
which leads me too my next reason for not believeing...

Who's brain washed? You talking to me, you think I am brainwashed? Ha. I'll tell ya, my dad is a complete heathen. He never talked about GOD, even to this day. My mom is saved, she went to church when I was a little boy, but she never tried to convince me of her faith, she figured I would get it in His timing, not hers. So brainwashed, no, Bible stories , No. To be totaly honest, I was just like all the unbelievers here, I just didn't believe in all that crap. I hated everything about religions and their gods. I was not a very nice man, I drank and did drugs, I cussed and blasphemed, I did all kindza horrible things to boot, I have lived the other side bub. So don't tell me to look at the other side, I was the other side, trust me. I was not saved until I was 33. Most of the time, if you have went that long, you never believe in Him.

If you are interested, and I will be surprised if you are, i will tell ya what changed my mind and how I came to faith in Yeshua. But I really don't wanna waste my time on explaining it if it will not matter. PM me if any of ya wanna know. Or ask me here and i will tell all of ya's.

allseeingeye

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:48 PM

The Logical Fallacy of Argumentum ad populum. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) A long time ago, a majority of the world thought the world was flat. Since so many believed it, it couldn't be wrong! Right? (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050102.html)

Why? He is the creator of all of us, so you say. Why would he want us to perish like that? What happened to all-loving?

It's not necessarily that we don't believe in god. Some of us are theists. We just don't believe Christianity is the exclusive way. I find your concept of hell to be cruel and hypocritical. I wouldn't wish eternal damnation on the people I hate most. Yet some all-loving, merciful God would? What the hell? That doesn't make sense.

i never claimed it was supposed to make sense. its just what it is. u don't hafta believe, one day you will stand tall before the man and hafta answer to Him. i just wanna know why you dont believe. that is all. We all know the earth is noy flat, we all know, deep inside, there is a GOD, a creator. To deny it is to your own doom. so take whatever i say and scoff or whatever, i know the truth and pray ya'll get it before its too late. believe me it is not my cocept, hell, it just is.... ya know I asked that same question, why would a loving GOD do that? Sin is SIN, GOD is Holy, the darkness cannot live in the light. go into a dark room and turn on a light, what happens, the light overcomes the darkness right? Well imagine GOD as a giant lightbulb, if you will, and you are darkness (sin), what happens. The darkness is snuffed out. GOD does not want that to happen, so he gave His Son. He cleans up the sin (darkness) and turns us into light. Now we can be with GOD.

Sammy56

Jun 9th, 2007, 7:58 PM

i never claimed it was supposed to make sense. its just what it is.Sorry but I have a problem with that. If God exists he designed an extremely complex universe whose finer laws we are just now getting a grasp on. He is obviously a logical and exceptionally intelligent being (to put it lightly) if he did that. How could it not make sense then? Everything else in his universe does! Yet he is willing to send innocent, kind, caring, and selfless people to hell because they are Hindu or Muslim? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 9th, 2007, 9:20 PM

No, that really does not answer my question. Christianity as I believe it, is believed not only by me, there are lotsa folks that believe in the exact same GOD and Christ that I believe in, how can that many people be that far off?

This has been covered. ::deleted stuff that was unnecessary::

ell good, I'm happy to hear that you at least believe in something that created everything around ya. it's kewl that you can outright slam my faith, I can handle that.

Well, then I give you props. However, your faith and/or God has some explaning to do.

Now to explain Why a loving God can do that to non-believers. He is a HOLY GOD, so Holy in fact that sinners perish before Him, and He does not like that to happen to his creation.

Then why doesn't he change the spiritual laws that bind him? He can do this if he is all powerful WITHOUT brutally murdering his son.

That is why He sent Yeshua, His Son, to us. He closes the gap between us and Him and Yeshua washes away the sins of the world. if He didn't everyone would die before a HOLY GOD.

Sadly, you do not see that that is NOT the only way that it could've been done. IF he is ALL POWERFUL he could've done it with NO DEATH AT ALL. This is what I'm trying to get you to understand. He did NOT HAVE to have Yeshua die to "bridge the gap." He is all powerful. He could've sacrifised a lubed up balloon to do it. But he CHOSE death instead.

Is it really kinda pointless to try and explain it to ya?

In a way yes, because like you I was raised Christian and have a very good understanding of the theology behind it. I simply don't buy it anymore.

How is it pathetic and Morally wrong??

It's morally wrong because he doesn't HAVE to let unbelivers be tormented forever. He is ALL POWERFUL. He therefore CHOSES to let them be tortured forever.

Two questions will help illuminate what I'm saying. They are yes or no questions.

1.) Is God all powerful?

2.) Is God bound by spiritual laws?

It is logically IMPOSSIBLE to answer both with a yes.

If the first is no, than I suppose perhaps your God is NOT bloodthirsty. However, who wants to worship a God who is not all powerful? (I have no problem with, but I'm sure you do)

If the first one is yes, then that proves that God WILLS thousands upon thousands of innocent people to be tormented for all eternity. It is NOT out of his hands, not at all- and he DOESN'T need to screw with free will to change it- he is ALL POWERFUL. If YOU or I sent people to be tormented for all eternity, it would be morally wrong. Why should God get a break in morality? Shouldn't he be held to a HIGHER standard? Yet you want to hold US to have a higher standard than God.

That is why I find your concept of God primitive and impossible to believe. He isn't even held to the same moral standard we are.

I only wish you would see that the spiritual laws that bind your God are there by CHOICE if he really is all powerful. And if they're there by CHOICE than he can CHANGE THEM without brutally killing his only son- and he can redeem people WITHOUT them converting.

He simply CHOOSES not to.

I can't feel anything but contempt for such a creature.

EDIT- You are really backed into a corner here. You HAVE to admit that your God is either NOT all powerful or he is evil.

If I were you I'd pick the former (and like I said, I DON'T have a problem with THAT God- at least he TRIED).

jeffweeder

Jun 9th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Death wasnt Gods fault.

He warned them not to eat and they did.

Death became real and the serpent ruled the realm. We chose to believe him in the Garden now legally in death we are his.

Legally God dealt with the situation by becoming a unique man who did not listen to the serpent, and legally conquered that realm of death and took the keys of death from the serpent.

God is to be commended....

We created our situation, yet true christianity suggests that God died for everyone, and legally conquered this realm of death, and now controls it, by dying a horrible death that wasnt warranted

God isnt bound by spiritual laws, but defines them by who he is---love

God didnt break these spiritual laws, and dealt with the situation of death.
This meant having to die himself, in order to free his creation from something very real.

I raise my glass to God who did it in the person of Jesus.

allseeingeye

Jun 10th, 2007, 7:23 AM

Sorry but I have a problem with that. If God exists he designed an extremely complex universe whose finer laws we are just now getting a grasp on. He is obviously a logical and exceptionally intelligent being (to put it lightly) if he did that. How could it not make sense then? Everything else in his universe does! Yet he is willing to send innocent, kind, caring, and selfless people to hell because they are Hindu or Muslim? Sorry, I don't buy it.

ok, ya don'y hafta buy it, its just the way it is, ya dont hafta like it, GOD gives us all a choice, if ya choose the wrong way, hey, not my problem. So ya all that don't believe, fine, don't believe, but don't bash me cause I chose the what i chose, am I forcing any one of you to chose something you don't want too? No. I am jsut trying to share my point of view.

your faith and/or God has some explaning to do.

No, i don't think so, come time it will be you that hasta explain.

Then why doesn't he change the spiritual laws that bind him? Dude, He is GOD!!!, He has no laws that bind him, that is a man made concept.

EDIT- You are really backed into a corner here. You HAVE to admit that your God is either NOT all powerful or he is evil.

I don't see it that way, you are the one that has backed yourself into the corner, spiritualy. Sorry, I stand on what I know is real, and what you are saying is not it, end of discussion. So call me whatever ya want, it's moot at this point. You believe what you want. i'll wave atcha from heaven.

Two questions will help illuminate what I'm saying. They are yes or no questions.

1.) Is God all powerful?

2.) Is God bound by spiritual laws?

Yes, He is all powerful.
No, He is not bound by any law, HE IS GOD!!!!

You have put GOD in your own tidy littel box and said He can do this and that, but not this and that, i don't agree with that, therfore it must be wrong. You claim to have been a Christian, and indeed you may have been, but therre are alotta Pastors out there that teach the wrong message. Ever think that mighta happened to you?

As said by jeffweeder:

Death wasnt Gods fault.

jeff has a point, it was man's fault. the very thing He created disobey one simple commandment and because of that we all pay. So, He seen a problem with that and gave us an out, Yeshua. He payed for our sins by being the scapegoat, a blameless man died for us. If that isn't Love, what is it? I go by an unwatered down gospel. I believe what i believe in and it makes me who I am. I am love by GOD and saved by Yeshua. I will take that to the grave with me.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 10th, 2007, 8:56 AM

allseeingeye

Jun 10th, 2007, 9:20 AM

I am imagining two people putting their fingers in their ears singing I dont Hear you.

If your god is all pwerful and perfect then its safe to say that it would not and indeed cannot make any mistakes. Its knows the outcome of every thing that can happe; does it not? Is it safe to say that it knew man would eat the apple?

Absolutely, and that was a chance that He was willing to take by giving us a free will. He wants us to think for ourselves, to make decisions based on what we think is right, even if it is wrong. Lord knows I have made some pretty dumb decisions. the fact is He loves us and died for us. Isn't that great? :thumbs:

Cartesiantheater

Jun 10th, 2007, 4:15 PM

Dude, He is GOD!!!, He has no laws that bind him, that is a man made concept.

Therefore, since God is NOT bound by spiritual laws, God can let people into heaven WITHOUT them accepting the sacrifice of Jesus, correct? Can he or Can he not?

[keeping in mind if you say he CAN'T then he is NOT all powerful]

I don't see it that way, you are the one that has backed yourself into the corner, spiritualy. Sorry, I stand on what I know is real, and what you are saying is not it, end of discussion. So call me whatever ya want, it's moot at this point. You believe what you want. i'll wave atcha from heaven.

Of course you don't. You refuse to apply critical logic to your faith. If God HAS THE ABILITY to let Hindu's into heaven but instead CHOOSES to torture them for all eternity in hell, then he is evil.

Yes, He is all powerful.
No, He is not bound by any law, HE IS GOD!!!!

You have put GOD in your own tidy littel box and said He can do this and that, but not this and that, i don't agree with that, therfore it must be wrong.

I didn't put God in a box. That was simple logic. There are no other alternatives. If God is NOT bound by any spiritual laws, then that means he DOESN'T have to let Hindu's go to hell. That means it is his CHOICE. That means he TORTURES GOOD PEOPLE for all eternity because they won't give up the religion they were taught from childhood to believe. That means he is EVIL.

You claim to have been a Christian, and indeed you may have been, but therre are alotta Pastors out there that teach the wrong message. Ever think that mighta happened to you?

No. I have abandoned every thing any pastor has ever taught me, because I THOUGHT FOR MYSELF. I put God to the test of morality and logic and he FAILED. How can he let good Hindu's burn in hell for all eternity? How could he have let four year old little girls playing outside during the flood drown in a horrible, frightning and barbaric fashion? What kind of LOVING GOD would do that? Only one- one that was created by PRIMITIVE PEOPLE in the image of PRIMITIVE PEOPLE.

As said by jeffweeder:

jeff has a point, it was man's fault. the very thing He created disobey one simple commandment and because of that we all pay. So, He seen a problem with that and gave us an out, Yeshua. He payed for our sins by being the scapegoat, a blameless man died for us. If that isn't Love, what is it? I go by an unwatered down gospel. I believe what i believe in and it makes me who I am. I am love by GOD and saved by Yeshua. I will take that to the grave with me.

Yes, but WHY IS THE CONSEQUENCE ETERNAL TORMENT? You already said that God is NOT bound by spiritual law. Therefore he does NOT have to make the consequence ETERNAL TORMENT.

So why does he then? Is it because he "loves" us so much? (if you didn't catch that, that was sarcasm)

Cartesiantheater

Jun 10th, 2007, 7:08 PM

Sorry to double post, but am I the only one that thinks this thread is in the wrong sub-forum? It should NOT be in the "Ask a believer" section- that is for THEOLOGICAL/ SCRIPTURAL issues NOT the philosophical one of whether or not God exists.

This should be in "Is there a God."

Just my opinion.

MaximumPain

Jun 10th, 2007, 9:01 PM

I love spaghetti. One way to tell is to ask the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you astray. But I suppose you gatta believe in that first huh?

How do you know its not just a voice in your head? I have heard people say outragous things the "God told them" and often God tells two different people two different things.

I believe in God and Jesus but I cant wrap my head around it being the only way thats why I chose pantheist for my religion. I get tired of puny humans trying to tell everyone that God is only how they have been taught. How can a God that created the whole universe be so limited. If God is sending everyone whose not a christian to hell then I dont want to be a part of that heaven cmon people like Jerry Fallwell go to heaven and Ghandi gos to hell!!?? Total Bullshit!

Sammy56

Jun 10th, 2007, 9:06 PM

If God is sending everyone whose not a christian to hell then I dont want to be a part of that heaven cmon people like Jerry Fallwell go to heaven and Ghandi gos to hell!!?? Total Bullshit!Great way to put it! Ghandi spent a good part of his life advocating nonviolence and trying to unite the people of India. He was a great man. Jerry Fallwell, on the other hand, spent his life preaching fire, brimstone, and hate against anyone who was different. And you are telling me the first deserve eternal torture and the second a nice spot in heaven? If that's true, I'm glad I'm not Christian.

krakatoa

Jun 10th, 2007, 9:27 PM

How do you know its not just a voice in your head? I have heard people say outragous things the "God told them" and often God tells two different people two different things.

I believe in God and Jesus but I cant wrap my head around it being the only way thats why I chose pantheist for my religion. I get tired of puny humans trying to tell everyone that God is only how they have been taught. How can a God that created the whole universe be so limited. If God is sending everyone whose not a christian to hell then I dont want to be a part of that heaven cmon people like Jerry Fallwell go to heaven and Ghandi gos to hell!!?? Total Bullshit!

Ok. i have decided to come on other subject than only politic and current events, and armagadon and disaster, but i have questions. first of all it is the same for me i believe in God and Jesus of course i consider myself as a christian because of that, but peoples like creationist, that believe the bible word by word, to the point of thinking that there are only them that will go to heaven.

I am open minded and i believe in science, but still i believe in Jesus and God.

What is pantheist?

Krakatoa.

jeffweeder

Jun 10th, 2007, 10:23 PM

If your god is all pwerful and perfect then its safe to say that it would not and indeed cannot make any mistakes. Its knows the outcome of every thing that can happe; does it not? Is it safe to say that it knew man would eat the apple?

very safe , yes God knew that they would eat it,However, this doesnt mean they never had the ability to not eat it ( Choice).

If we did not have the ability "to say no" , then how can God judge you?
This wouldnt be a righteous God, judging you when all along he knew you didnt have the metal to resist.

He even told them not to eat it, because they would die if we did, spiritually and physically.

They lost the immediate presence of God and now we see through fog.

Whatever happened that day, it was serious enough for God to have to be born, suffer, die in order to break the curse.
He could of changed the rules here to avoid it, but didnt. He had to remain faithful to himself perhaps, and he stepped up to the plate.
we died and God lost us.
He come after us
God find you ...........ye live.

From this point on he reveals how, by painting an image of what messiah would do when he came.
He esablished the nation/people
the bloodline
The land
the time
and then the messiah.

400 years after the last book of the OT was written, (that painted this image/pic )..he was born.There is only 1 person in history this could be.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 10th, 2007, 10:37 PM

Whatever happened that day, it was serious enough for God to have to be born, suffer, die in order to break the curse.

No he didn't.

He could of changed the rules here to avoid it, but didnt.

He could've changed them BEFORE ANYTHING HAPPENED. I wonder why he did not? :;hint hint::

He had to remain faithful to himself perhaps, and he stepped up to the plate.
we died and God lost us.
He come after us
God find you ...........ye live.

From this point on he reveals how, by painting an image of what messiah would do when he came.
He esablished the nation/people
the bloodline
The land
the time
and then the messiah.

400 years after the last book of the OT was written, (that painted this image/pic )..he was born.There is only 1 person in history this could be.

All of the above would be perfectly fine if God wasn't ALL POWERFUL (all loving is a given).

Since he suppossedly is, I say the above is crap, based on what was already brought up.

No body has addressed the point of why God would punish people for all eternity because they were Hindu. How is that JUSTICE?

MaximumPain

Jun 10th, 2007, 11:08 PM

Ok. i have decided to come on other subject than only politic and current events, and armagadon and disaster, but i have questions. first of all it is the same for me i believe in God and Jesus of course i consider myself as a christian because of that, but peoples like creationist, that believe the bible word by word, to the point of thinking that there are only them that will go to heaven.

I am open minded and i believe in science, but still i believe in Jesus and God.

What is pantheist?

Krakatoa.

From this site http://www.pantheist.net/

Pantheism holds that the cosmos, taken or conceived of as a whole, is synonymous with God. The Cosmos is divine, and the earth sacred.
Pantheists do not propose belief in a deity; rather, they hold nature itself as a creative presence. Pantheism reconciles science and religion through ecology leading to strong environmental awareness.
Pantheists believe in Divine Immanence. To the Pantheist, divinity does not transcend reality; it surrounds, and is within. All share divinity. This leads the pantheist to personal ethics of tolerance and understanding.
That actually is not how I understood it but it isn’t the first time I’ve been wrong. I understood it to mean that all or most religions have something to give to the whole picture. I wanted to acknowledge that there is a God and she has given us many ways to know him. The whole “believe in Jesus or go to hell” line has chased me away from the Christians and the church.

jeffweeder

Jun 10th, 2007, 11:26 PM

He could've changed them BEFORE ANYTHING HAPPENED. I wonder why he did not? :;hint hint::

God by who he is, defines spiritual laws.
He creates this world accordingly, thats why he didnt.
Your saying God can redefine himself--he cannot because he is what he is.

No he didn't.

yes he did:vbroll:

No body has addressed the point of why God would punish people for all eternity because they were Hindu. How is that JUSTICE?

Maybe he doesnt.
God knows the heart and deals with us on a spiritual level.
It is said that Christ died for all as they are---sinners, and its only your rejection of him that will keep you out.
How this message comes to you is a spiritual thing and we all feel the breeze.
Some see it as refreshing some find it undesirable .

Without putting a mask on it, we recieve it or reject it in who we become.

blah tongue tied...............

Cartesiantheater

Jun 10th, 2007, 11:41 PM

God by who he is, defines spiritual laws.
He creates this world accordingly, thats why he didnt.
Your saying God can redefine himself--he cannot because he is what he is.

yes he did:vbroll:

Therefore the Laws that define God are GREATER than God himself. Therefore God is NOT all powerful. Therefore we should be worshiping the LAWS THAT DEFINE God instead of God, because THOSE are what are the greatest things in the universe ;)

Maybe he doesnt.
God knows the heart and deals with us on a spiritual level.
It is said that Christ died for all as they are---sinners, and its only your rejection of him that will keep you out.
How this message comes to you is a spiritual thing and we all feel the breeze.
Some see it as refreshing some find it undesirable .

Without putting a mask on it, we recieve it or reject it in who we become.

blah tongue tied...............

FINALLY!!!!! A Christian let's go of the Judgement Tyrant dogma. See, THAT would make God NOT a total dick. If only he will not send people to hell for all eternity for believing a different faith. Why can't God hear the prayer of someone raised in a faith other than Christianity?

I wouldn't hate THAT God so much... it's the OTHER one that I can't stand.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 11th, 2007, 12:03 AM

This wouldnt be a righteous God, judging you when all along he knew you didnt have the metal to resist.Did god not know me and everything that I could and would ever be? Did it indeed not know me this way sinse before time? Did this god not know every one of us this way sinse before time? Did it still choose to set us to tests that it knew many many many people would fail miserably? Does it have total control over the punishment for failing the tests? Is it safe to say that part of the "everything" that this god ecompasses would include all that is in the punishment and reward for these tests?

jeffweeder

Jun 11th, 2007, 12:20 AM

Therefore the Laws that define God are GREATER than God himself. Therefore God is NOT all powerful. Therefore we should be worshiping the LAWS THAT DEFINE God instead of God, because THOSE are what are the greatest things in the universe ;)

Without God there are no spiritual laws.............
Things have to be done a certain way.

FINALLY!!!!! A Christian let's go of the Judgement Tyrant dogma. See, THAT would make God NOT a total dick. If only he will not send people to hell for all eternity for believing a different faith. Why can't God hear the prayer of someone raised in a faith other than Christianity?

I wouldn't hate THAT God so much... it's the OTHER one that I can't stand.

cool
Another way of putting it is this;

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take[7][Or serve ] care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

They had no idea that they were serving him, yet a simple act of kindness, he saw them to be serving him.

jinxz

Jun 11th, 2007, 1:05 AM

jeffweeder:Whatever happened that day, it was serious enough for God to have to be born, suffer, die in order to break the curse.

CT: No he didn't.

Why is it so hard to believe that God had to combine with man and then sacrifice God to God in order to change a rule that God made and thus allow man to relate directly to God? That makes perfect sense, right?
:confused:

krakatoa

Jun 11th, 2007, 11:23 PM

From this site http://www.pantheist.net/

That actually is not how I understood it but it isn’t the first time I’ve been wrong. I understood it to mean that all or most religions have something to give to the whole picture. I wanted to acknowledge that there is a God and she has given us many ways to know him. The whole “believe in Jesus or go to hell” line has chased me away from the Christians and the church.

Thanks a lot for the link, and the response, i will look into it, and i will come back to you on this.

Krakatoa.

jeffweeder

Jun 12th, 2007, 4:43 AM

Did god not know me and everything that I could and would ever be?

Yes, he probably knows you better than anyone.

Did it indeed not know me this way sinse before time?

Yes DBA he thought about you ..a lot

Did this god not know every one of us this way sinse before time?

Yes ...of course, he numbered the hairs on my head, just like he did you.

Did it still choose to set us to tests that it knew many many many people would fail miserably?

Well the rule to the test is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Treat each other properly.

People fail miserablely because they think only of themselves.

Love is always going to be something that is recieved as well as given to/by someone else

Does it have total control over the punishment for failing the tests?

Well the good news is that any punishment that was due the transgression, was DEALT WITH by his own provision messiah....Jesus on the cross, so yes Jesus has the punishment side of things covering your ass.

Is it safe to say that part of the "everything" that this god ecompasses would include all that is in the punishment and reward for these tests?

can you put this another way? not sure what you mean.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 12th, 2007, 6:01 AM

can you put this another way? not sure what you mean. Does this god control the punishment for failure of its tests?

If you believe that "hell" exists then the answer to the preceding question has deep implications pertaining to your god. If even ONE person is in any lasting hell the implications are the same.

Cherisa

Jun 12th, 2007, 1:51 PM

Does this god control the punishment for failure of its tests?

If you believe that "hell" exists then the answer to the preceding question has deep implications pertaining to your god. If even ONE person is in any lasting hell the implications are the same.

what you are missing here is that God is Holy..he cannot look at evil, and when your mind has been cleaned by him, neither can you. hell was created for satan and his peeps( demons), I don't know for sure if God puts anyone in hell, no one knows for sure,(altho there have been lots of NDE that saw flames )http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm#n7 I don't think that my worst enemy deserves a fate like that, I think hell maybe strictly reserved for satan and his minions, but are there gonna be satan worshipers that go "hey, what about me?" then God will have to send them to California?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 12th, 2007, 5:55 PM

he cannot look at evil, You know you just set a limit on your gods power.... which means you believe in a god that is not all powerful.

Cherisa

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:11 PM

You know you just set a limit on your gods power.... which means you believe in a god that is not all powerful.

No it doesn't mean that, because he can't or won't look at evil, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean he isn't all powerful.. His power is still there, whether he chooses to use his power is determined only by him..:doh:

Cartesiantheater

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:19 PM

*Before you read this, I am aware that you said that no one knows if God sends people to hell. But the common Christian theology is that he does, so that's what I'm arguing against- not necessarily you- so long as you do not adhere to the ridiculous theology that an all loving all powerful God sends people to hell.

No it doesn't mean that, because he can't or won't look at evil, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean he isn't all powerful.. His power is still there, whether he chooses to use his power is determined only by him..:doh:

Which now means that the reason your God sends innocent Hindus to hell to be TORMENTED FOR ALL ETERNITY is EXACTLY because he WANTS THEM TO.

He chooses when and when not to use his all powerfulness- you JUST said this.
That therefore completely negates your excuse that he "cannot look at evil" because he in fact CAN according to you.

Therefore your God STILL has NO excuse for why he sends innocent Hindus to hell, or even why he sends petty theives to hell to be TORMENTED FOR ALL ETERNITY.

So something isn't right here, if you believe that God is all powerful, all loving, and sends people to hell.

Cherisa

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:22 PM

*Before you read this, I am aware that you said that no one knows if God sends people to hell. But the common Christian theology is that he does, so that's what I'm arguing against- not necessarily you- so long as you do not adhere to the ridiculous theology that an all loving all powerful God sends people to hell.

Which now means that the reason your God sends innocent Hindus to hell to be TORMENTED FOR ALL ETERNITY is EXACTLY because he WANTS THEM TO.

He chooses when and when not to use his all powerfulness- you JUST said this.
That therefore completely negates your excuse that he "cannot look at evil" because he in fact CAN according to you.

Therefore your God STILL has NO excuse for why he sends innocent Hindus to hell, or even why he sends petty theives to hell to be TORMENTED FOR ALL ETERNITY.

So something isn't right here, if you believe that God is all powerful, all loving, and sends people to hell.

Who said God send innocent Hindus to hell? I didn't say that at all.I said

I think hell maybe strictly reserved for satan and his minions, but are there gonna be satan worshipers that go "hey, what about me?" then God will have to send them to California?

And just where the hell should satan worshipers go? to heaven? I can't imagine they'd be to happy there....

Cartesiantheater

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:29 PM

Who said God send innocent Hindus to hell? I didn't say that at all.I said

Hey Cherisa, did you notice the first part in my post? Maybe I shouldn't have put it in size one and italics? :D

Before you read this, I am aware that you said that no one knows if God sends people to hell. But the common Christian theology is that he does, so that's what I'm arguing against- not necessarily you- so long as you do not adhere to the ridiculous theology that an all loving all powerful God sends people to hell.

So I'm not necessarily arguing against you (EDIT- or Jeff since he shares your belief on that). I'm more arguing against many of your fellow Christians.

And just where the hell should satan worshipers go? to heaven? I can't imagine they'd be to happy there....

Satan worshipers should stay on Earth or maybe some sort of "pergatory" or some holdover dimension until they realize the "truth." They CERTAINLY don't want to spend eternity being tormented, and I"m sure that once they finally understand things they'll come around.

Sammy56

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:33 PM

No it doesn't mean that, because he can't or won't look at evil, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean he isn't all powerful..It's pretty simple to me. If God CANT look at evil, than he is not all powerful because by not being capable at looking at evil, there is a restriction on him. WONT is another issue entirely. If he won't, he could be all powerful.

Cherisa

Jun 12th, 2007, 10:58 PM

Sammy56

Jun 12th, 2007, 11:08 PM

if "they"(generality of unbelievers, no one in particular here!) were to believe in God, an all powerful ,Holy, Creator of the universe, then they would, become accountable. They would have to accept that there are spiritual laws that you must obey, they would understand their sinful nature, and their lives would change.I would just like to point out that just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they aren't aware of their "sinful nature" or that they don't hold themselves accountable for their actions.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 12th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Ya know I think I just figured it out, because if "they"(generality of unbelievers, no one in particular here!) were to believe in God, an all powerful ,Holy, Creator of the universe, then they would, become accountable.

Let me be the first (well, second= EDIT, curse you 56!) to say that for myself and every single non-Christian I know (which is close to a hundred), this is as far away from the reason as -1000000000000 is from 100000000000.

That has NOTHING at all to do with it. I have morals and I believe that all humans should follow a basic moral code. I beileve in right and wrong, and I hold myself accountable for my evil actions and believe every one should be.

They would have to accept that there are spiritual laws that you must obey, they would understand their sinful nature, and their lives would change.

Spiritual laws that are CRUEL and IMMORAL should be rebelled against, not obeyed. It is IMMORAL to send innocent people to hell. Period. Even if God Almighty is the one doing it. That is why I do not become Christian. Because your God is not MORAL and is not held accountable for HIS immorality. He drowned little girls and boys in the flood for crying out loud (assuming the Bible is true).

Once they made a commitment to God, they would then realize that their free will was fully gone! once you choose God you can't unchoose him, it dosen't work thataway.

Yes you can. There are a few examples in the Bible itself that demonstrate this. And God says it himself in the Old Testament

If are evil, but you turn from your wicked ways and repent, I will not hold you accountable for your deeds and I will forgive you, for the Lord your God is loving. But if you are righteous, but then turn from what you know is good, reject what is right and turn to wickedness, so too will I turn my face from you, for the Lord your God is Holy

That is paraphrased from something I read in the Old Testament last year (I do in fact read the Good Book on occassion, in fact I recently had a sort of Bible Study with a member here ;) ). There is another story that also mentions sins from the previous generation (are not held against the young), but if the righteous turn from God, etc. etc. If you really push me I'll find the scriptures, but I'd rather not.

when you have a relationship with God things change, you might get laughed at, belittled, humiliated, spat upon, cursed andcussed. But those things are from people... You get something that is worth enduring all of those things for.. you get Joy that flows from a wellspring that never runs dry, you get an everlasting love that makes all earthly relationships pale by comparison, you get a peace that the world does not understand that flows from his Holy fingertips straight into the center of your being.. Once you have experienced this ,your life will never be the same ,I guarentee it...

That is all well and good, but I can't worship an evil God, or one that fails to present evidence for his existence.

I am climbing down off my soap box here, and I will never participate in a prove God debate again.. You either want him or you don't, if you don't..why argue? It's not going to persued any of us who have gained just these top three that he is not there and we are not called according to his divine plan, If you do want to know God and his Love Peace and Joy and a million other things he has to offer and are even the slightest bit curious how to recieve them shoot me a PM and we will go from there...

Well Cherisa, I'd love to meet God- but only if he isn't an evil jerk. But the question is, would YOU? What if this whole time you've been fooled and God is actually the BRAHMAN from Hindusim? Would you reject him because he isn't exactly up to your version?

Cherisa

Jun 12th, 2007, 11:25 PM

Well Cherisa, I'd love to meet God- but only if he isn't an evil jerk. But the question is, would YOU? What if this whole time you've been fooled and God is actually the BRAHMAN from Hindusim? Would you reject him because he isn't exactly up to your version?

If I was Hindu, I could choose from 26,000 different gods, and still save myself, by stopping the cycle of samsara. At least with Christianity God doesn't leave it up to you to do all the work...:in fact he knows we cannot ever attain it on our own that is why he is an active participant!!!!pray:

Cartesiantheater

Jun 13th, 2007, 12:36 AM

If I was Hindu, I could choose from 26,000 different gods, and still save myself, by stopping the cycle of samsara. At least with Christianity God doesn't leave it up to you to do all the work...:in fact he knows we cannot ever attain it on our own that is why he is an active participant!!!!pray:

Well, according to the Hindus I know, it's really just many manefistations of the same ONE God, Brahman. "Atman is Brahman" you know?

And you don't have to do ANYTHING except be good- and EVENTUALLY you'll be born into the right situation...

But atleast in Hinduism you DON'T get punished RIDICULOUSLY and ABSURDLY dissproportionally for your sins. You get EXACTLY what you deserve.

But at least you owned up to being incorrect about why we don't convert.

Havoc Angel

Jun 13th, 2007, 1:17 AM

when you have a relationship with God things change, you might get laughed at, belittled, humiliated, spat upon, cursed andcussed. But those things are from people... You get something that is worth enduring all of those things for.. you get Joy that flows from a wellspring that never runs dry, you get an everlasting love that makes all earthly relationships pale by comparison, you get a peace that the world does not understand that flows from his Holy fingertips straight into the center of your being.. Once you have experienced this ,your life will never be the same ,I guarentee it...

I've been there. In my mind I found a place that fits your description. But it was a place, not a being. There were no expectations, no prerequisites to get there, no dogma attached, no guardian to judge you, no welcoming fanfares, no golden gates.

This place is basically everything I am yearning for in my life, oneness, freedom, serenity. But it's all only in my mind. I could as well imagined it all. That's why it's a belief and not knowledge. I will not impose this image on others, I will not judge others for not sharing this image. This is personal only (and I haven't shared this with anyone until now). It gives me something to look forward to when I die. It gives me a reason not to view live as completely irrelevant.

I will not consider the existence of this place as factual Truth. It is only in my mind and has only relevance for when knowledge ends, after death. It could be just a common psychological quirk, the 'god delusion', heh.

And as this place has only relevance for me personally, I will not look down on those who don't share a similar imagination, I will not admire people for sharing it and I will not elevate myself above others because of it.

And deep inside, there is a place of purity, when entering it, I just disappear. And you know what? There is a sense of salvation in ceasing to exist.

nrj

Jun 13th, 2007, 2:10 AM

Christianity as I believe it, is believed not only by me, there are lotsa folks that believe in the exact same GOD and Christ that I believe in, how can that many people be that far off? And the majority of the world don't believe in christianity. And there are billions of muslims and hindus. Billions. How can that many people be so far off?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 4:03 AM

Ya know I think I just figured it out,... predictable dribbleHow amusing that the conclusion you came to is the same one that the 700 club guy keeps screaming into his mic.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 9:01 AM

How amusing that the conclusion you came to is the same one that the 700 club guy keeps screaming into his mic.

That's funny DBA, you've been watching the 700 club, even I don't waste my time with those hypocrites :eww:

Havoc I understand what your getting at, but if it is some sort of illusion on my part, it's a pretty powerful one. like healing myself of cancer when I really wanted to check out.. :bye:

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 1:41 PM

Your god is questioned and your answer is that Im afraid to take responsibility for myself..... Thats the typical christian response.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 7:48 PM

Your god is questioned and your answer is that Im afraid to take responsibility for myself..... Thats the typical christian response.

how do you figure that? how did you come to that conclusion?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 7:55 PM

Ya know I think I just figured it out, because if "they"(generality of unbelievers, no one in particular here!) were to believe in God, an all powerful ,Holy, Creator of the universe, then they would, become accountable. They would have to accept that there are spiritual laws that you must obey, they would understand their sinful nature, How could I not? Im reading what you typed.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 7:56 PM

How could I not? Im reading what you typed.

YOU didn't ask the question!!!!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 8:06 PM

Pretend I did, this time, does your answer change?

because if "they"(generality of unbelievers

Your answer was not meant for non christians; it was a cop out answer that christians give each other to help excuse themselves ungracefully from inqueries into their beliefs.

You find that you must admit to logical fallacies OR shift focus and leave the conversation. You shifted focus and:

and I will never participate in a prove God debate again..

Cartesiantheater

Jun 13th, 2007, 8:17 PM

YOU didn't ask the question!!!!

Even so, DBA is correct. That's a cop out. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with why we don't believe. To sum up why for me and most of us:

1.) Scientific evidence contradicts claims made by the Bible.

2.) The God described in the Bible is not Moral.

That's pretty much it, for me. I can't worship a God who's holy book is contradicted by observation and who isn't moral.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 9:18 PM

Pretend I did, this time, does your answer change?

Your answer was not meant for non christians; it was a cop out answer that christians give each other to help excuse themselves ungracefully from inqueries into their beliefs.

You find that you must admit to logical fallacies OR shift focus and leave the conversation. You shifted focus and:If you used graceful inqueries abut my beliefs that would be a whole other note..

If I kept going round about with unbelievers what would change exactally?, please enlighten me...

Even so, DBA is correct. That's a cop out. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with why we don't believe. To sum up why for me and most of us:

1.) Scientific evidence contradicts claims made by the Bible.

2.) The God described in the Bible is not Moral.

That's pretty much it, for me. I can't worship a God who's holy book is contradicted by observation and who isn't moral.
Today 9:06 PM

1.)Where? Just because you don't understand biblical science doesn't mean it's not there....
2.) and that is what you think about my God, that is your belief.Believe what you want you wont hear any arguments from me...

Cartesiantheater

Jun 13th, 2007, 9:41 PM

1.)Where? Just because you don't understand biblical science doesn't mean it's not there....

Well, the only thing that comes to mind at this moment is the "6000 year old Earth" thing (addmittedly this is not explicitly expressed in the Bible). There are SO many dating techniques that agree with each other to within a few percentage points and agree in their dissagreement that the Earth is 6000 years old. Also, again that Bible doesn't explicitly deny it, but evolution. There is SO much evidence for it. Oh, and some of the physically impossible things, like the world wide flood, and say, plants being created before the sun (yes, DAY was made, but NOT the sun- don't get me started on how you can't have one without the other- modern cosmology understands pretty well how the sun formed, and it WAN'T after plants)

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

I mean, that implies to me that the sun wasn't made until after the plants. But I guess it's in how you interpret it.

2.) and that is what you think about my God, that is your belief.Believe what you want you wont hear any arguments from me...

Well my point is that THOSE reasons I listed are WHY I don't believe your God. You claimed that it was because we unbelievers are afraid of accountability- which is utter crap.

If we were unbelievers because we didn't want to be accountable it would imply that we in fact DO believe, we just want to rebel. Which is INSANE because rebellion leads to eternal torment. We just don't believe because we feel the evidence runs counter to the existence of THAT God.

That was all I was saying.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 10:18 PM

i don't know how old the earth is and the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, personally I think or believe if you will, that the earth is very, very, very very, very, very, very very, old. anyone looking at Cherokee Mountian can see that that just didn't happen over nightBUT and this is a very big but, I refuse to believe it's 48,000,000,00,000 years old either, Face the facts CT nobody KNOWS how very old it is.

Well my point is that THOSE reasons I listed are WHY I don't believe your God. You claimed that it was because we unbelievers are afraid of accountability- which is utter crap.

If we were unbelievers because we didn't want to be accountable it would imply that we in fact DO believe, we just want to rebel. Which is INSANE because rebellion leads to eternal torment. We just don't believe because we feel the evidence runs counter to the existence of THAT God.

That was all I was saying.
But, you believe certian things about my God, (ie he's not moral)that aren't true!!!!! That I knowbecause I have a relationship with him. I have to say that you definately know more about Science than I do, will you concede that I know more about my God than you do?

Cartesiantheater

Jun 13th, 2007, 10:43 PM

i don't know how old the earth is and the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, personally I think or believe if you will, that the earth is very, very, very very, very, very, very very, old. anyone looking at Cherokee Mountian can see that that just didn't happen over nightBUT and this is a very big but, I refuse to believe it's 48,000,000,00,000 years old either, Face the facts CT nobody KNOWS how very old it is.

Sure no one KNOWS but we DO have a VERY good estimate that is backed by a lot of evidence.

But, you believe certian things about my God, (ie he's not moral)that aren't true!!!!!

Well, by my definition of moraility it is not moral to send people to hell or to let little children drown in a global flood. If you are saying your God DIDN'T/DOESN'T do these things that perhaps I might be wrong about him.

That I knowbecause I have a relationship with him.

You should tell him that he's got some serious reputation issues then.

I have to say that you definately know more about Science than I do, will you concede that I know more about my God than you do?

Well, that's quite possible, although I have known Christians that knew less about their faith than I do, you probably know more about him than me.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:00 PM

Sure no one KNOWS but we DO have a VERY good estimate that is backed by a lot of evidence.

Well, by my definition of moraility it is not moral to send people to hell or to let little children drown in a global flood. If you are saying your God DIDN'T/DOESN'T do these things that perhaps I might be wrong about him.

You should tell him that he's got some serious reputation issues then.

Well, that's quite possible, although I have known Christians that knew less about their faith than I do, you probably know more about him than me.

Thank you! I apreciate that you think you could know more about christianity than a few christians, I also know more about hinduism than some Hindus. I think he knows how his reputation appears.. could he change it, yes, will he change it? definately!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:05 PM

will you concede that I know more about my God than you do? If you start answering my questions about it I might. Instead you have chosen to call me irresponsible. If you cant answer my questions about your god then why should I believe you know more about it than I?

Does this god control the punishment for failure of its tests?

If you believe that "hell" exists then the answer to the preceding question has deep implications pertaining to your god. If even ONE person is in any lasting hell the implications are the same.

jeffweeder

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:28 PM

You should tell him that he's got some serious reputation issues then.

Its actually a weird mixture.
I have presented another side of the story--him willingly stepping onto the stage of human existence to free us from death. He knew how he would die, but there were people destined to hell, and he came to provide an open door.

He wants all people everywhere to love properly.

The guidelines have always been there---dont steal, dont kill , dontcovet, etc

People send themselves to hell.
God has shown that he will do anything to get you to repent of things that offend the laws of love and good will.

What do we do with people who are out to steal hate kill rape and con you with lies.

They pretend to like you but all the while theyre plotting to take you for everything.
What do we do with people like this.?

You have to remove them from the community dont ya.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:34 PM

If you start answering my questions about it I might. Instead you have chosen to call me irresponsible. If you cant answer my questions about your god then why should I believe you know more about it than I?

If you believe that "hell" exists then the answer to the preceding question has deep implications pertaining to your god. If even ONE person is in any lasting hell the implications are the same.

did you read what I wrote? Hell is for satan and his demons? Hello?!? (sigh)DBA I don't even know why you keep resopnding, I said I wasn't talking to you. you haven't asked Any valid questions. what is you want me to answer.?. Just type it in the form of a question and I will answer it.

Does this god control the punishment for failure of its tests?

Oh you mean this query?
what sort of tests are you speaking of?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:35 PM

You have to remove them from the community dont ya.If you arent all powerful and you cant just change them then sure thats one option.....

Of course if you were all powerful and you made these poeple, it could be argued that you made them wrong INTENTIONALLY; I mean, sinse you are all powerful and dont make mistakes....

It seems that if you are all powerful and dont ever make mistakes then, from any point of view, you created things simply to torture them. Its sad that a person could worship something like that.

He knew how he would die, but there were people destined to hell, and he came to provide an open door.Because when you are all powerful; this type of charade is certainly needed..... [end sarcasm]

you haven't asked Any valid questions.Just as well, you havent answered any.

Cherisa

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:42 PM

Just as well, you havent answered any.

Well, I am good at mind reading if there is something to read!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 13th, 2007, 11:46 PM

Read the thread and answer the questions in it.

jeffweeder

Jun 14th, 2007, 12:12 AM

If you arent all powerful and you cant just change them then sure thats one option.....

Of course if you were all powerful and you made these poeple, it could be argued that you made them wrong INTENTIONALLY; I mean, sinse you are all powerful and dont make mistakes....

The intention was that man be in Gods image.
God made man to fellowship with him, so he had to make him free.

It seems that if you are all powerful and dont ever make mistakes then, from any point of view, you created things simply to torture them. Its sad that a person could worship something like that.

I wouldnt want to worship a god like that and i dont.
People make mistakes, but God has provided grace--forgiveness by bearing the torture for all, so we dont have to.

He wouldnt have done this if he was hellbent on torturing you.

Havoc Angel

Jun 14th, 2007, 12:31 AM

jeffweeder

Jun 14th, 2007, 1:25 AM

Sending anyone to hell for all eternity for the sins comitted in a lifetime is infinitly out of proportion. The sins are limited, but the punishment is infinite.
Your god is not just.
Your god has no forgivness.
Your god is cruel.

He doesnt send anyone to hell, he forgives because he is just.
Why ignore how God ultimately dealt with the situation.
He went to hell/ death, to free anyone that wanted out.
What your saying on this thread about God doesnt make sense, in light of the epilogue of the book and what he ultimately did.

Youve quite simply misunderstood him---havent you.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 14th, 2007, 5:06 AM

He doesnt send anyone to hell, he forgives because he is just.So you are saying that no one is in hell....? Thats cool with me then. Though, I still have a problem with anything being in hell, this includes any entity that your god created, including its "angels"; including your "devil" should you believe in one. There is no reason for a just god to send one of its creations to eternal torture when it could as easily fix it.

jeffweeder

Jun 15th, 2007, 4:25 AM

So you are saying that no one is in hell....?

no not saying that--hell exists

Thats cool with me then. Though, I still have a problem with anything being in hell, this includes any entity that your god created, including its "angels"; including your "devil" should you believe in one. There is no reason for a just god to send one of its creations to eternal torture when it could as easily fix it

As i said he has fixed it, but people decide they want to go there...You think God should overide peoples will and force them into heaven?

Love is a two way street, we must embrace it, we must decide what we like and what kind of person we are.

We are not robotic, we live it out..on a razors edge.

Terrifying aint it.

Havoc Angel

Jun 15th, 2007, 4:43 AM

And what if I decide to be free and not go to hell and not go to heaven? Has God prepared some other place for those who reject either 'choice' given to them?

How can you speak of God giving out free will when the choices are either love me and get eternal bliss or don't and get tortured for all eternity? This sounds more like blackmail from a narcisstic tyrant to me...

DontBeAfraid

Jun 15th, 2007, 5:14 AM

As i said he has fixed it,Ive had it with the double talk for a while. A perfect all powerful being created something.... THAT NEEDED FIXING? If you dont understand that the very idea is retarded then there is probably not enough blood in your brain.'

You think God should overide peoples will and force them into heaven?I think a perfect all powerful being cant possible make any mistakes. This means that it creates people knowing full well that they will be tortured for all eternity in hell; Indeed it could only have created them with this future on purpose. Again if you dont understand why this is the logic yo udescribe then make sure that you are getting enough air.

Terrifying aint it.Terrifying is the fact that you and many like you could worship and love such a DISGUSTING idea of a god. You worship and love something that creates things simply to torment them for eternity. Indeed you worship your own devil and you dare not question it, not out of love but, out of fear.

You and your idea of god can go fuck yourselves.

jeffweeder

Jun 15th, 2007, 5:47 AM

And what if I decide to be free and not go to hell and not go to heaven? Has God prepared some other place for those who reject either 'choice' given to them?

How many places do you think there are?

First-there was only god=1 place
Man created in Gods image.

satan wants to set up his throne also =2places

He interferes with Gods creation-captures them through the will of man--through deception/trickery.
Man goes from place 1 to place 2, trapped in the death that manifested itself in creation.

Jesus , as promised, came along, rejected the serpents voice ,yet was killed.
Death came about by us listening to that serpent, so when JC found himself in death, the charge didnt hold, as he ignored that serpent all his days.( 40 days in a row at one point)
He rose from the dead obviously.

So no matter how you look at it, it just has to be a bit better news at what happens when death takes hold.

If this figure called satan has the power, what hope you got of living in peace or loving your neighbour? You expect justice or mercy from a cold blooded murderer?
he gonna set you free?
BUT--- if Jesus has the power over death, the possibilities of being forgiven--if you want to be---are enormous.

its not called the good news for anything...

Havoc Angel

Jun 15th, 2007, 5:56 AM

Thanks for your explanation, Jeffweeder, I think I'll stick with my belief in infinity, it's not so...stifling.

Bogles my mind how an infinite being, like a god could only create so few places and it even more boggles my mind how an all powerful being is unable or unwilling to eliminate an adversary that he created himself (Lucifer) while showing that he is able and willing to destroy and kill off parts of his creation when it goes wrong...

jeffweeder

Jun 15th, 2007, 6:26 AM

Bogles my mind how an infinite being, like a god could only create so few places and it even more boggles my mind how an all powerful being is unable or unwilling to eliminate an adversary that he created himself (Lucifer)

In Gods house there are said to be many dwelling places, but its his domain.1 place

He was willing and able and he did rendor that domain powerless...
Theres a fixed day when this in time shall be realised.

DBA

Have you ever made a mistake?

and if you did was this Gods fault?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 15th, 2007, 7:13 AM

and if you did was this Gods fault?Did god know I was going to commit the "mistake" before it made me?

If nothing is beyond this gods control then absolutely it was its fault. If my mistake was beyond this gods control then this god is NOT all powerful.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 3:26 PM

What? Nobody is willing to defend their monster god anymore?

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:08 PM

Sorry but I have a problem with that. If God exists he designed an extremely complex universe whose finer laws we are just now getting a grasp on. He is obviously a logical and exceptionally intelligent being (to put it lightly) if he did that. How could it not make sense then? Everything else in his universe does! Yet he is willing to send innocent, kind, caring, and selfless people to hell because they are Hindu or Muslim? Sorry, I don't buy it.

There is a flaw in this argument because you have never understood the original message in the first place.

This earth has been separated from God through sin. That is why you do not see very much of him and when you do it normally ends up with someone dead.

The entire earth is in a fallen state. We will get our day of judgment at the end but this is nothing more than a formality.

The only way to come to God is to first deal with the sin problem. Under the old testament this was achieved through using a sacrifices as a proxy to take the punishment for the persons sins thus enabling them to approach God.

In the Christian case it is using Christ as the sacrifice as a one time event so that the dept of sin can be washed away.

In other words for a religion to actually work you need a covenant that provides a way to deal with sin, and it has to be one that God sets in place so that it will be acceptable to him and hold validity on the day of judgment.

Now you will notice a curious trait here on this forum. Those that are for Christ display a faith that defies all logic and they will stick to it no matter what you present before them in the form of reasoned argument.

On the other side of the coin you have all the agnostics etc here that who seem to be under a spirit of dissolution and totally blinded and dead to anything of a spiritual nature. It is as if their mental faculties have been hijacked and they have been preprogrammed to reject God. They are incapable of accepting any form of testinomy or witness from the Christians.

There is a reason for this!

Those that have accepted the sacrifice of Christ and submitted themselves to his rule now have a relationship of varying degrees with the spirit of God and have the experience to prove it. They know what they have seen and experienced and have the demonstrations of Gods power in the form of answered prayer to encourage them in the face of this worlds reactions to them.

Those that have rejected the idea of Christ are of course cut off from any form of relationship with God's spirit. When they attempt to pray they are basically talking to fresh air. They will observes and experience no form of the supernatural in their lives with the result that they will think that it is all a load of self delusion. After all that is just what they have observed. They are in fact spiritually dead in their sins.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:17 PM

I think, maybe christians dont know the meaning of omniscience and omnipotence.

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:24 PM

What? Nobody is willing to defend their monster god anymore?

I see you have been having a bit of a field day while I've been distracted elsewhere.

Placed any bets on how long they will last before you manage to drive them off?

Well from your perspective God will be an all powerful monster, the fear of God is but the beginning of wisdom so you must be progressing some there.

But pay attention to what I say here! Over the years I have observed that those who go out of there way to oppose the things of God and the way to salvation that he himself set in place always eventually find themselves walking into desolation. :sick:

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:36 PM

eventually find themselves walking into desolation.Well then. If your god is all loving then it wants to save me. If its all powerful then it is capable of saving me. So if it is all powerful AND all Loving I will be saved. If I am not saved thenyour god is either not all poerful or not all loving or neither.

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:46 PM

I think, maybe christians dont know the meaning of omniscience and omnipotence.

Yes we do know what that means.

But the one that has this form of power at their disposal does not have anything to prove and does not have to display that power in some form of obscene ego trip.

I also note that you have quoted me in your signature. No problem but quote the rest or all you will have is propaganda.

Or have you grown so desperate that you need to stoop so low?

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 6:51 PM

Well then. If your god is all loving then it wants to save me. If its all powerful then it is capable of saving me. So if it is all powerful AND all Loving I will be saved. If I am not saved thenyour god is either not all poerful or not all loving or neither.

The question is do you want to partake of this salvation and submit yourself to the rulership of Christ.?

A qualifier in the selection process was placed there for a reason. Those that wish to have anything to do with God have to show that they want to. And the rejections from the worlds adherents will will ensure that you are willing to pay the price for it.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 7:06 PM

I also note that you have quoted me in your signature. No problem but quote the rest or all you will have is propaganda.

Or have you grown so desperate that you need to stoop so low?I suppose yo udont know what propaganda means either. Either way, the quote is not taken out of context the meaning as read in my signature is the same as the meaning it had in your post. Besides, sigs have a max length.

But the one that has this form of power at their disposal does not have anything to prove and does not have to display that power in some form of obscene ego trip. Naw, it only has to display this "power" while murdering mankind, forcing people to kill their own children, killing its own child and sending people to be eternally tortured. Are you not capable of looking at big pictures or do you choose not to?

The question is do you want to partake of this salvation and submit yourself to the rulership of Christ.?No, the question is: If your god is powerful then how can you imagine a situation in which an entity ends up in hell against your gods wishes. Read the other way; everything in hell is there because your god created hell and puts things in it. So, if your god is all loving then why does it put things in hell?

to cut you off at the pass:
If people "choose" hell(ridiculous I know, but tahts what you were about to type) and that is against your gods wishes then your god is not all powerful as people are beyond your gods power.

Cant wait to watch you prove my sig, your quote, correct.

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 8:21 PM

Sin is like a cancer invading creation, it is a slow poison that will spread and eventually destroy all that it affects.

If you develop cancer in your body, what do you do to it?

Do you say poor cancer, I must not harm you for you are a part of me. I will live with you and nurture you because I am a loving person and will forgive you for infecting all the other cells in my body and destroying them.

Or do you do the rational thing and cut the cancerous cells out of your body so that they cannot spread and do more harm.

God has stated that the nations of this world are but dust on the scale of things, Thus indicating that we pale to insignificance in comparison to all the other issues at stake.

Do you think that God is not a rational being and will not take action to protect his creation, even if it means the destruction of that which is already infected so as to protect the rest?

As for quoting me out of context in your signature, I see that you will stoop so low but you will find that this will also be a stumbling block for you later. No one of integrity is going to praise you for it .

As for the accusations that you are directing towards God for being so ruthlesness in the way he is dealing with this rebellious world, This is born out of your self centeredness as your primary thoughts are about you, yourself and what you want with no regard as to how others are affected. Even when looking at things on a cosmic scale.

At least God made a plan so as to extend a life line to the inhabitants of this world so that they could be rescued before the cure is administered. He did not have to do that!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 8:41 PM

Please explain how my quote is out of context? You said exactly whats there and it maintains exactly the same meaning. The only intellectual dishonesty going on here is you pretending that I misquoted you.

As for your explanation you are admitting that your god is not all powerful nor is it perfect.

Do you think that God is not a rational being and will not take action to protect his creation,This is where we begin to get silly. Your all powerful perfect god created everything right? Everything including that which it is "protecting" its creation from. Still following?

even if it means the destruction of that which is already infected so as to protect the rest?More sillyness! An all powerful being with no limits could simply fix the infection if it wanted to. Apparently that is beyond your gods power so it must amputate.

This is born out of your self centeredness as your primary thoughts are about you, yourself and what you want with no regard as to how others are affected.Yes, lets pretend to know each other. And no matter what you think of me, you must admit that if your god is all powerful and doesnt make mistakes then I am EXACTLY as your god intended me to be.

Even when looking at things on a cosmic scale. On a cosmic scale I realize that I am meaningless. You on the other hand imagine yourself to be of such great importance that your imaginary ruler of existence has taken a special interest in you.

At least God made a plan so as to extend a life line to the inhabitants of this world so that they could be rescued before the cure is administered. He did not have to do that!Other things it did not have to do:
Torture anything for eternity; I imagine it could simply fix the mistakes that it should not have been capable of making in the first place.

Please, ask your god and then convey to me an answer for these questions. Try not to use any analogies or scenarios that put limits on your god which you claim it does not have.

You are wrapped up in arguing your retarded stance with me; my goal was to get you to analyze your retarded stance. But, like you said in my sig, you are not capable of reason.

Traveler

Jun 16th, 2007, 9:44 PM

Cartesiantheater

Jun 16th, 2007, 10:00 PM

This is the other part of the quote that should be included to keep my words in your signature in context.

On the other side of the coin you have all the agnostics etc here that who seem to be under a spirit of dissolution and totally blinded and dead to anything of a spiritual nature. It is as if their mental faculties have been hijacked and they have been preprogrammed to reject God. They are incapable of accepting any form of testinomy or witness from the Christians.

Well, my humble opinion here is that the above is incorrect. I for one reject your God PRECICELY because I use logic and reasoning. No one has explained how YOUR God can be all loving, all powerful and send people to hell without making logical contradicitons... but there is one thing.

We do NOT reject the SPIRITUAL off hand. That is a lie. We reject CHRISTIANITY- because it's God is not moral, based on the evidence examined thus far. I have little problem with the existence of a God. Just not YOURS.

There is nothing incorrect in what I have said in the last few posts. You are attempting to ridicule them because you do not understand the nature of the conflict that is going on.

Uh... our side has not made logical contradictions. Our side does not expect the other to abandon REASON. Your beliefs are in contradiction with themselves. If you want to abandon reason and logic, that's your call. But we do not ask you to to accept our argument. We ask you to EMBRACE reason and logic.

You have yet to answer the contradiction exposed in your belief. Cherisa and Jeff have said that maybe God DOESN'T send people to hell. That is much more than you have done. You're still preaching a logical contradiction.

Just MHO.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 16th, 2007, 10:22 PM

This is the other part of the quote that should be included to keep my words in your signature in context. Both sides of this coin maintain their meaning alone and without the other. So it is fair to say that they are indeed two seperate coins and that neither in their entirety lose any context when quoted alone. So again the only dishonesty here is you pretending that I misquoted you.

You are attempting to ridicule them because you do not understand the nature of the conflict that is going on.I ridicule them because they are not consistent with reason, They are in fact contradictory to logic. These contradictions dont bother you though because:

"Now you will notice a curious trait here on this forum. Those that are for Christ display a faith that defies all logic and they will stick to it no matter what you present before them in the form of reasoned argument."

Not my fault if you never bothered to read it.I dont want an article, I want an explanation as to why you claim your god is all powerful but freely place limitations on that power when trying to sell it as a loving entity.

As for your dislike of God. Go tell him yourself, Why must I be your messenger boy? I am not expressing any opinion of any god that may or may not exist. I am expressing my dislike of your dishonesty about any god which may or may not exist. But you are not being dishonest with me, as I have little trouble in the areas of logic; you are being dishonest with yourself. Instead of examining the questions and coming to reasonable conclusions you make meaningless analogies that dont apply to the situations at all and divert your attention away from the inconsistencies(all powerful + all loving cannot = hell) and toward the sign(me, in this instance) that points to them. You should know, however, that even if you managed to uproot and discard of the warning sign that it would not affect the dangers to which it points. So is it your intention to willfully place people in danger? To willfully have people sacrifice their reason? Is this behavior modeled after your monster god? Or is your monster god modeled after your evil behavior?

So do you have answers? Or just more distractions?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 1:01 AM

This all loving idea has been dealt with before.

Go back and look at the scriptures and see where the statements of all loving and merciful are used. Who is God talking to and under what circumstances.

Then explain where the all loving came in during Noah's flood or when he drowned the Egyptian army in the Red sea. Obviously the loving part is selectively applied.

Is it not the same God that stated that vengeance is mine and I will repay. In fact is this not the same God who has declared judgments upon America for the sins it has promoted throughout the world. Or do you really think that the sun just got hotter on it's own and the Yanks just happened to become the focus of hate from the rest of the world.

There is no contradiction despite the manner in which you have managed to confuse the others. God is all loving and merciful to those that turn to him or put their trust in him but he is ruthless to those that set themselves up in opposition to him or his authority.

You have taken the one statement about the love and forgiveness of God, ignored the context in which it was used and then presented it as a contradiction in Gods behavior so as to make fools out of those who have been drawn to him.

As for God being all powerful. He is the one who decided where and when that power is used, not you! You may not like the way that he is going about things but you are not the one making the choices are you? Or is the clay going to presume to tell the potter in what manner it is to be made?

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 17th, 2007, 1:31 AM

There is no contradiction despite the manner in which you have managed to confuse the others. God is all loving and merciful to those that turn to him or put their trust in him but he is ruthless to those that set themselves up in opposition to him or his authority.

... So, he's clannish, basically. That's not really special.

You have taken the one statement about the love and forgiveness of God, ignored the context in which it was used and then presented it as a contradiction in Gods behavior so as to make fools out of those who have been drawn to him.

*sigh* Okay, Traveler, look.

You believe God sends non-believers to Hell? Yes or no? If yes, continue.

You believe Hell is an eternity of torment? Yes or no? If yes, continue.

If a man allows millions of people to be tortured forever, despite the fact that he could free them, with almost no sacrifice of himself, would you call that man loving?

It's not so much the fact it's totally inaccurate. The torturer in question could have some very close friends, family he cares about dearly. He could very well be "loving". But if someone said, "Yeah, that guy's got a heart of gold, even if he does cause people to be horribly afflicted forever," I'd pretty much call that bullshit. Wouldn't you? If not, I gotta say, that says a lot about you and your religion.

As for God being all powerful. He is the one who decided where and when that power is used, not you! You may not like the way that he is going about things but you are not the one making the choices are you?

If God is "good", then he has to be held to an ethical standard. If God isn't held to an ethical standard, he's not a good being. It's just that simple. Sure, God has all the power, and he could very well screw everyone over without fear of recourse, but that would mean he's a selfish prick, so why should I follow him?

And to follow your example - say I have the power to walk through flames unscathed. Now say I happen to be near a burning building, and I spot someone trapped inside, trying to get out. I can't get hurt here, so should I try to help? After all, why should I? It's MY power, to do with as I wish. So you can't blame me for choosing not to use MY power, right?

Wrong. It's heartless and cruel, and anyone with the slightest hint of empathy would be able to see that.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 1:33 AM

So you concede that your god does not love me. In fact it hates most people. Seems an odd game for an omnipotent entity to play. Please tell me why I should and how you could worship such an evil entity. My guess is fear, well.... DontBeAfraid.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:06 AM

Ok let me explain it this way.

The house is on fire, but the people inside the house are being held as hostages and can't see the flames. They are unaware of the danger that they are in.

You do have the power to walk through the flames but the house belongs to your enemy and to enter it is to violate a law that must not be broken.

So what do you do?

You call out to the people that are in the house and warn them of the danger and then point out to them a safe passage out. Tell those who are in the house and who have heard you to warn the others who have not.

But the bottom line is that they have to listen to you and get out themselves. You cant force them to leave because you do not have jurisdiction over that property that is in the authority of your enemy.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:09 AM

So now your god is not only not loving but also not powerful enough to enter its enemies home. An enemy and home which it created.... Or does your god lose its alpha omega status with your next explaination?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:26 AM

The law maker is required to obey his own laws or those same laws will loose their validity. Either you have the rule of law or you have might makes right. Only one concept can prevail.

Hence the nations of this world are but dust on the scale of things.

To redeem something back means that you must of lost possession of it in the first place. That is why Christ is also known as the worlds redeemer.

Now you can go and take it back by force but that would be tantamount to theft would it not.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:39 AM

You do have the power to walk through the flames but the house belongs to your enemy and to enter it is to violate a law that must not be broken.

So, God isn't omnipotent? He's bound by laws he cannot break, therefore he is powerless against those laws, therefore he is not all-powerful.

The law maker is required to obey his own laws or those same laws will loose their validity.

Now we're getting somewhere! What is the validity of this law in the first place?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 3:56 AM

Either you have the rule of law or you have might makes right.It seems to me that torturing someone for all eternity for not doing as you wish would fall under might makes right.

jeffweeder

Jun 17th, 2007, 4:01 AM

Now we're getting somewhere! What is the validity of this law in the first place?

It appears to have something to do about what love means.

Its true, there are somethings that God cannot do---like lie

He is all powerfull because he can decide not to lie

People have a problem with it, I have a problem with it.

Spiritual truth and laws and the meaning of life are defined by what love is.

Not all people want to love...........for love to mean something is up to us. We are participants, and we have a certain amount of responsibility to make the decision to love.
to not be a participant in love is hell

Cherisa

Jun 17th, 2007, 11:46 AM

It appears to have something to do about what love means.

Its true, there are somethings that God cannot do---like lie

He is all powerfull because he can decide not to lie

People have a problem with it, I have a problem with it.

Spiritual truth and laws and the meaning of life are defined by what love is.

Not all people want to love...........for love to mean something is up to us. We are participants, and we have a certain amount of responsibility to make the decision to love.
to not be a participant in love is hell
I love that , that is brilliant!

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 11:51 AM

Not all people want to love...........for love to mean something is up to us. We are participants, and we have a certain amount of responsibility to make the decision to love.
to not be a participant in love is hell

But why can't we change our minds at some point? Why can't we refuse love at one time and then later accept love?

Another thing. "Outside are the dogs, the blah blah blah sinners blah blah blah" why does this "outside" have to be a lake of fire? Maybe there IS no hell, but merely a city with God and his people inside and then everyone else outside? (ie no eternal torment).

And why can't people change their mind at a certain time? Why does it ALL have to be decided in physical life- this INFINITELY short amount of time (compared to eternity)?

The answer to all these whys of course is, it DOESN'T have to be that way... so... think about that.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:28 PM

So, God isn't omnipotent? He's bound by laws he cannot break, therefore he is powerless against those laws, therefore he is not all-powerful.

Now we're getting somewhere! What is the validity of this law in the first place?

This universe keeps its order because it is bound by its physical laws of nature. Should nature stop responding to those laws chaos would soon follow.

Now when I use the word law you guys think along the lines of societies laws that are made by a parliament. These laws can be broken but the results of breaking them is very limited. Someone suffers a loss and another gets the blame and a court hands down a punishment.

There is no interlinking between these laws. Each country can have their own. The geographical limit of those laws covers a limited area of jurisdiction.

However Gods laws are not afforded this form of luxury. Everything is interlinked. They hold the fabric of reality in place. When broken it has a ripple effect. The laws that God introduced are not to maintain control like the laws of the state but are designed to maintain a harmonious order for the smooth flow of the creation.

Even the simpler laws that were introduced in the old testament may seem like a lot of do's and don't s but they in fact produce a specific behavioral pattern that keeps things stable. This is why things like witchcraft are so wrong, it cause a disruption in the order that require a form of compensation elsewhere which results in harm somewhere along the line. You get the picture! Cause and effect, equal and opposite reactions.

Now satans rebellion is based on a manipulation of this law and he is using the human race as a shield to protect himself. If God wipes him out then he has to wipe us out as well. The law has to be equally applied or you wind up with a divisional structure in creation which will breed its own problems.

Now God has put a plan in place to rectify this wrong and preserve the human race, its called salvation, but our active participation is required on an individual basis for it to work. God is not going to sacrifice the rest of creation just for us but he will counteract the damage that satan has done. Now the course of events are required to continue to its logical conclusion, hence our history has been divided up into a series of ages. But it is your free will that will decide your own ultimate fate.

Havoc Angel

Jun 17th, 2007, 2:37 PM

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 3:08 PM

If God is omnipotent then even the laws that hold the universe together can be changed without adverse effects. Omnipotence means anything can be done any way God sees fit. That's omnipotence.
If anything God put those laws in place because he wanted them there, not because he is required to have them there.
Your attempts to justify the tyrannical laws bear no substance.

Omnipotence also means that you have a choice on how you wish to deal with an issue

God chose to deal with it this way, Earth is in quarantine at the moment, the rest of the universe is watching and learning from our mistakes.

You may think that what God is doing is terribly harsh but none of us have the big picture. You say God is a monster because of his actions but how does this weigh up in comparison to what?

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 3:53 PM

Should nature stop responding to those laws chaos would soon follow.
Yes, because nature is not all powerful.

When broken it has a ripple effect. Maybe so, put it God is all-powerful than he should be able to change the laws without adverse effects.

Even the simpler laws that were introduced in the old testament may seem like a lot of do's and don't s but they in fact produce a specific behavioral pattern that keeps things stable. So you feel that all the laws set down in the Bible are beneficial some way? Okay. Explain to me how Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is beneficial.

You say God is a monster because of his actions but how does this weigh up in comparison to what?In comparison to human actions. I don't care how much of a big picture you have, putting a good person in eternal physical torment because they weren't raised to believe in the right religion isn't moral, whether you are human or God. An all-powerful God could do that, but he sure the hell wouldn't be all-loving.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 4:26 PM

Yes, Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Please explain it.

If a man finds a virgin that is not betrothed and rapes her and they are found; Then the man who raped her will give the girl's father fifty pieces of silver, and she will be his wife; because he "humbled" her he must be forced to live with her until she dies.

Yeah, can we say BARBARIC? This is flat out not moral.

Oh the pain! What a punishment for RAPING someone! Oh my... and you know, it's probably GOOD for the girl... after all, who would want a non-virgin? (= sarcasm if you're too stupid to see that, nazi fems)

Yeah, if your God wrote that or dictated it he is a sick evil bastard. Period.

Now ask yourself why we don't convert.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:05 PM

So you feel that all the laws set down in the Bible are beneficial some way? Okay. Explain to me how Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is beneficial.

You could not have picked a better verse to demonstrate just how far our modern society has strayed from its original roots.

The whole section there deals with the subject of marriage, fornication and rape.

The basic building block of society is supposed to be the family unit, but we are slowly slipping into terrine because the governing structures has used its influence to stress out the family unit and break it down and then begun to replace it with itself. Like it or not the west is becoming communist from within.

Children are not to be conceived out of wedlock, A child born into a stable family unit matures into a stable adult. A child born from rape results in a child that will always be an outcast and rejected. How many people will be affected or hurt when that child finally snaps and cuts loose.

To be betrothed or engaged is to commit to a future family unit. To rape a woman in that state is to steal another mans future bride and forever pollute that relationship which will affect the relationship between the parents and the parents with the children. Getting rid of the culprit prevents much of the future violence and family feuds that would otherwise develop if left alone.

In the case where the woman is not betrothed you basically have a situation where a forced consummation has occurred. In which case is required to pay damages to the family of the woman and then you are required to meet your responsibilities and provide for that woman and the offspring that results from that union.

If you look at our set up today you can see just how far removed we now are from how things ought to be. So much so that now this is looked upon as barbaric. Right has been made wrong and wrong presented as right!

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:09 PM

To be betrothed or engaged is to commit to a future family unit. To rape a woman in that state is to steal another mans future bride and forever pollute that relationship which will affect the relationship between the parents and the parents with the children. Getting rid of the culprit prevents much of the future violence and family feuds that would otherwise develop if left alone.

Do you not see how sick and evil that sounds? The woman is the VICTIM and you are implying that she is somehow "spoiled" by the rape- somthing she had NO control over. If a man is obsessed with a woman's chastity that's one thing. But to hold her responsible for something she cannot help is disgusting. It shouldn't matter.

In the case where the woman is not betrothed you basically have a situation where a forced consummation has occurred. In which case is required to pay damages to the family of the woman and then you are required to meet your responsibilities and provide for that woman and the offspring that results from that union.

And that is all he is required to do huh?

Uh traveler, you ARE aware that the RAPED WOMAN is FORCED TO MARRY HER RAPIST right?

Don't you dare try to wiggle out of this. Answer the question:

Is it morally right to make a raped woman marry her rapist?

This is a YES or NO question. No apologetics required. It is black and white.

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:15 PM

You could not have picked a better verse to demonstrate just how far our modern society has strayed from its original roots.You're kidding, right? You think it is okay to force a women to marry the man who attacked her, held her down, and forced her to have sex with him? Do you have any freaking idea on what rape does to a women?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:22 PM

In comparison to human actions. I don't care how much of a big picture you have, putting a good person in eternal physical torment because they weren't raised to believe in the right religion isn't moral, whether you are human or God. An all-powerful God could do that, but he sure the hell wouldn't be all-loving.

Again you have got it wrong but you dance your little dance and point the crooked finger so as to justify your hate for God!

On the day of judgment the books are opened. One of them is the book of life. There is no indication as to how thick that book is but there are names written into it. Those who have their names in there do not end up in the fires but they will have to face the judgment and be judged according to their works.

Those who are in Christ will not be partaking in this day of judgment because they have already been judged through Christ.

So much for your presumptuous statement!

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:25 PM

Again you have got it wrong but you dance your little dance and point the crooked finger so as to justify your hate for God!

On the day of judgment the books are opened. One of them is the book of life. There is no indication as to how thick that book is but there are names written into it. Those who have their names in there do not end up in the fires but they will have to face the judgment and be judged according to their works.

Those who are in Christ will not be partaking in this day of judgment because they have already been judged through Christ.

So much for your presumptuous statement!

Yeah, you completely dodged her point. Nice. And expected.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:32 PM

Ever wondered what happens to the man who is forced to marry the woman he raped. No one will be in a hurry to repeat that mistake!

In practice the woman remains where she wills, her family or his or with him, her choice. But he is required to be the provider for the rest of his or her days and all he has in return is a wife that hates him.

Get the picture!

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:32 PM

Again you have got it wrong but you dance your little dance and point the crooked finger so as to justify your hate for God!Let me make this clear. I don't hate God. I don't hate Christ. I believe I can't prove or disprove the existance of the former, but I do lean slightly towards theism. I also cannot prove or disprove the existance of the later, but I have great respect for him, "Son of God" or not. His teachings are some of the greatest out there. So don't put words in my mouth. I do not hate God. I hate the concept of God so many religions have created. You twist him around to fit your needs. You create your exclusive religions that practice intolerance and condemnation of anyone who is different. It is you who has lost sight of what this life is about. It's not about adhering to some stupid religious doctrine. It's supposed to be about loving each other and helping each other through life. Yet to many of you (and I don't just mean the Christians, but they are the prominent ones on this board) are too obsessed with the whole "if you aren't Christian you are going to be eternally tortured in hell by are all-loving and merciful God". Well, you know what I say to that? Bullshit. You might be narrow minded, but God isn't. If He exists, he is so much greater than you are acknowledging, yet you try and put him in a box with your stupid religion. You can take your presumptuous statement and shove it.

Ever wondered what happens to the man who is forced to marry the woman he raped. No one will be in a hurry to repeat that mistake!Oh that poor man. However will he live with a wife that hates him, despite the fact that he can always just rape her again and again as long as he lives? His suffering is just so great compared to the women who will spend the rest of her life miserable because of something that WASN'T HER FAULT!!!

Get the picture!Yeah, I get the picture. You are saying it's alright for a man to rape a women because he will be "punished" by then having a wife that hates him. You have no comment on the wife who will have to live out her life with the man who has ruined everything for her. There is a reason rape is called a fate worse than death, yet not only do you ignore the emotional and psychological damage to the women, you advocate forcing her to marry the man. That is one of the most sadistic things I've ever heard.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:34 PM

Ever wondered what happens to the man who is forced to marry the woman he raped. No one will be in a hurry to repeat that mistake!

Oh my!!!! the PAIN!!!!

In practice the woman remains where she wills, her family or his or with him, her choice. But he is required to be the provider for the rest of his or her days and all he has in return is a wife that hates him.

Get the picture!

That is not written in your Bible. And SHE CAN'T MARRY ANYONE ELSE!!!!!!!!!

Because she is raped she CANNOT START A FAMILY WITH A MAN SHE LOVES!@!@@

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT MORALLY TRAVELER?

Yes or No. Is it moral to force a woman to marry her rapist?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:37 PM

Yeah, you completely dodged her point. Nice. And expected.

The point has not been dodged. Its plainly explained.

Those who are raised in the wrong religion will be judged according to their works. Did they help the people around them or did they rob the people around them. They will be required to face this judgment on their own merit,

Those in Christ escape it.

How much plainer can it be?

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:40 PM

The point has not been dodged. Its plainly explained.

Those who are raised in the wrong religion will be judged according to their works. Did they help the people around them or did they rob the people around them. They will be required to face this judgment on their own merit,

Those in Christ escape it.

How much plainer can it be?

Sammy pointed out that hell and and all-loving God are logical contradictions- and she asked why if a HUMAN did the SAME THING he would be evil, but somehow your God is ammune to that moral standard. You dodged it. And you're ignoring my questions:

Is it morally right for a raped woman to be foreced to marry her rapist? and

Because she is raped she CANNOT START A FAMILY WITH A MAN SHE LOVES!@!@@

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT MORALLY TRAVELER?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:49 PM

Oh my!!!! the PAIN!!!!

That is not written in your Bible. And SHE CAN'T MARRY ANYONE ELSE!!!!!!!!!

Because she is raped she CANNOT START A FAMILY WITH A MAN SHE LOVES!@!@@

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT MORALLY TRAVELER?

Yes or No. Is it moral to force a woman to marry her rapist?

Go back and look closer to the wording

If a man finds a virgin that is not betrothed and rapes her and they are found; Then the man who raped her will give the girl's father fifty pieces of silver, and she will be his wife; because he "humbled" her he must be forced to live with her until she dies.

It says "rapes her and they are found"

Note that she is not reporting that she has been raped. They have to be found out. In the old order rape and fornication are lumped together. As in casual sex. There was a certain amount of compliance on her part to begin with.

Next do not misquote.

The bible says that he cannot divorce her. Not her leave him. The rope that binds is around him, not her.

Now stop ranting and get it right

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:55 PM

There was a certain amount of compliance on her part to begin with.
You are fucking kidding me. Really, you have to be joking.

She is raped, but because she didn't tell anyone, she isn't compliant. Do you know how sick that is? Can't you imagine how she might be afraid of reporting something in a society where a women is only worth something if she is a virgin? But what exactly do you mean "they have to be found out"? What if someone catches him in the middle of the act? They've been found out! She has to marry him, even though he was RAPING her!

The bible says that he cannot divorce her. Not her leave him. The rope that binds is around him, not her. I don't buy that. In that society, I bet it was pretty hard for a wife to leave a husband, no matter what the reason. Besides, he has still ruined her life, even if she leaves him. She would never have been able to marry again, possibly to a man she loves, and have children with him. She is doomed to a life of shame and being an outcast because she is no longer worth anything.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:56 PM

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:56 PM

Go back and look closer to the wording

If a man finds a virgin that is not betrothed and rapes her and they are found; Then the man who raped her will give the girl's father fifty pieces of silver, and she will be his wife; because he "humbled" her he must be forced to live with her until she dies.

It says "rapes her and they are found"

Note that she is not reporting that she has been raped. They have to be found out. In the old order rape and fornication are lumped together. As in casual sex. There was a certain amount of compliance on her part to begin with.

BULLSHIT.

Contrast that with the earlier verse. The key here is that if a girl is raped where no one could save her then she would've cried out but no one could stop it. But if "they are found" it means to them that she didn't cry out or didn't cry out loud enough to stop the rape and therefore she is punished for it. She is STILL raped, but becuase the men who wrote the Bible assumes that women being raped will always cry out for help she is held responsible. But what if she is threatened into silence? You know what happens Traveler? SHE WON'T CRY OUT! And because of that, she is FORCED TO MARRY HER RAPIST.

This has NOTHING to do with fornication YOU are the one twisting the Bible.

Next do not misquote.

The bible says that he cannot divorce her. Not her leave him. The rope that binds is around him, not her.

Oh, the rope is not around her yet she has to marry him?

Now stop ranting and get it right

Take your own advise. Answer the questions.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 5:57 PM

Now I get whats going on here

This is an old verse you guys have used before to tie the Christians up in knots and to make fun of them,

Now you can't understand why it's not working anymore.

Go haul another one out your gummy bag.

Go read my last post. Your defense is not working because the point of that scripture is that if a woman doesn't cry out loud enough to be heard she is as responsible for the rape as the rapist is.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT?

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:00 PM

This is an old verse you guys have used before to tie the Christians up in knots and to make fun of them, You wish. I'm not making fun of them. I am just pointing out the absurdity in some parts of the Bible. I know many Christians who would look at that verse and admit that it's wrong and a product of a different time and that we are now enlightened enough to know that a women's only worth isn't her virginity.

Now you can't understand why it's not working anymore.Working? I'm not trying to get anything to "work". I just cannot imagine why you are defending a rapist against his victim.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:05 PM

You are fucking kidding me. Really, you have to be joking.

She is raped, but because she didn't tell anyone, she isn't compliant. Do you know how sick that is? Can't you imagine how she might be afraid of reporting something in a society where a women is only worth something if she is a virgin? But what exactly do you mean "they have to be found out"? What if someone catches him in the middle of the act? They've been found out! She has to marry him, even though he was RAPING her!

Go back and look at the rest of the verses so as to keep things in context. Or are you pulling another DBA here?

If she is actually being raped as in force then she is instructed to cry out for help and others are duty bound to answer.

The idea of crying out for help is to prevent the rape and stop the unwanted conceptions in the first place.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:07 PM

Go back and look at the rest of the verses so as to keep things in context. Or are you pulling another DBA here?

If she is actually being raped as in force then she is instructed to cry out for help and others are duty bound to answer.

The idea of crying out for help is to prevent the rape and stop the unwanted conceptions in the first place.

Nice dodging there. That's what I said traveler. I DID state the context. Now you are LYING. YOU claimed the word "rape" meant fornication. Are you BACKPEDDLING now?

WHAT IF SHE IS THREATENED INTO SILENCE? GUESS WHAT? SHE'S HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR HER RAPE!

WHAT IF SHE DOESN'T SCREAM LOUD ENOUGH? GUESS WHAT? SHE'S HELD RESPOSIBLE FOR HER RAPE!

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT?

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:10 PM

The idea of crying out for help is to prevent the rape and stop the unwanted conceptions in the first place.What if no one hears her? What if the rapist is covering your mouth? Do you know how hard it is to scream when a man two or three times as big as you has his hand covering your mouth with all his strength? It's pretty fucking hard. Plus, these women's lives are probably being threatened. These men probably had weapons and threatened to use them the instant she made noise. And just because someone is "duty bound" to answer doesn't mean it's going to happen. Your logic is full of holes.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:11 PM

Oh, while we're at it...

22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

Translation:
If a man marries and then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT?

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:12 PM

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:14 PM

As I have shown you before. It is the rapist that is required to shoulder the responsibilities, not her.

There is nothing in that scriptures that says that she has to marry him. She can still refuse. But unless she says no then he is the one that remains stuck with her and there is no backing out for HIM!

Oh, then why does it say SPECIFICALLY

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

SHE SHALL BE HIS WIFE. It SAYS that Traveler. That is what your Bible says. It does not say "she has the OPTION to be his wife" does it? I didn't right it and I didn't twist it. I presented it EXACTLY as it is written. It says what it says. Quit twisting scripture to hide the evil in it.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:16 PM

How did traveler get a "pass" on my questions? He still hasnt answered any of them except for "how can you think this or that?" question. To which the answer was:

"Now you will notice a curious trait here on this forum. Those that are for Christ display a faith that defies all logic and they will stick to it no matter what you present before them in the form of reasoned argument."

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:16 PM

As I have shown you before. It is the rapist that is required to shoulder the responsibilities, not her.Yes, the poor rapist. Forget the woman who will be scared for the rest of her life.

There is nothing in that scriptures that says that she has to marry him.I kind of doubt that she is going to be given much of a choice. If she is not a virgin, she is "spoiled goods". No one else is going to want to marry her.

She can still refuseWhere in the Bible does it say that? Like I said, a woman is only worth her virginity during that time. If she doesn't marry that man who raped her, she is "ruined". So, she can marry him and be miserable her entire life by living with the man who raped her, or she can refuse (which I highly doubt she could do, but I'll ignore that for a second) and spend the rest of her life alone and an outcast. What a great choice for someone who was the VICTIM of something that WASN'T HER FAULT!!!

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:24 PM

So this is the next one out the gummy bag.

NO problem I will deal with it another day

But there is enough here to point out that the opposition to the idea of God here on this forum is not based on the fact that you have no belief in God but that you actually hate the very idea of him and only use the science story as a tool to vent that haterid upon those servants of the Lord who come on here unsuspecting of the malicious response that they will receive.

No doubt over time you are going to throw every one of your unfavorite verses at me with the result that it will not be long before the other Christians have all the answers to them.

But you guys just keep on trucking, your pit awaits you, after all you are digging it yourselves.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:27 PM

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:27 PM

But there is enough here to point out that the opposition to the idea of God here on this forum is not based on the fact that you have no belief in God but that you actually hate the very idea of him and only use the science story as a tool to vent that haterid upon those servants of the Lord who come on here unsuspecting of the malicious response that they will receive.You wish. I do not hate the idea of God. We do not use science as a tool. I think it's possible for science and God to work together without any problems. It's you who put the limitations on God's power.

But you guys just keep on trucking, your pit awaits you, after all you are digging it yourselves.Well, I'd rather live in the pit with CT than worship a God who supports eternal punishment and rape.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:31 PM

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Traveler, that means HE CANNOT DIVORCE HER. It does NOT mean she has an OPTION to marry him.

YOUR BIBLE SAYS THE FOLLOWING:

and she shall be his wife

IT DOES NOT SAY SHE HAS THE OPTION TO BE HIS WIFE, DOES IT?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 6:34 PM

Traveler, excellent ungraceful exit. To the point though, I have no belief in any gods. I do hate YOUR idea of a god.You use YOUR idea of god toexcuse horrible behavior. One example might be how you recently used it to excuse rapists and shift the blame for the crime unto the victim. Saying its her fault for not screaming loud enough? You are retarded.

Traveler

Jun 17th, 2007, 9:06 PM

Traveler, that means HE CANNOT DIVORCE HER. It does NOT mean she has an OPTION to marry him.

YOUR BIBLE SAYS THE FOLLOWING:

IT DOES NOT SAY SHE HAS THE OPTION TO BE HIS WIFE, DOES IT?

Now days you are encouraged to engage in fornication. Back then it was taboo.

Sex outside of a formal marriage arraignment is just plain wrong.

Live with it.

Or do you think that the old laws laid out in the scriptures must be abandoned by the rest of us just because society has changed for the worst.

Look at what has now happened since those laws were cast aside.

Family units are breaking down all over the place. The younger generation is looking on marriage as am obsolete institution.

Family ties mean almost nothing now.

Kids talk about all their fathers and are all screwed up in their value systems.

The only thing that keeps the population in check is the muscle of the law, without it they would go mad max because they no longer have the self control and commitment to community that they should have. Now days every time a natural disaster occurs its a looting spree instead of looking for those in trouble and helping.

Material wealth has now exceeded a man worth, more than his ability's.

And you want to take the values of a system that has produced that and then use it as a measure to pass judgment on the old.

Get real.

The results of casting aside the old ways has now become obvious to all. Now you can keep on trying to discredit the rules that God laid out because you feel that you are wiser than he but I for one do not accept what you wish to replace it with because what it has produced is not something good, it is something bad.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 17th, 2007, 9:11 PM

Now days you are encouraged to engage in fornication. Back then it was taboo.

Sex outside of a formal marriage arraignment is just plain wrong.

Live with it.

Dude, that passage has NOTHING AT ALL to do with fornication. IT IS ABOUT RAPE. Quit trying to deny it.

Or do you think that the old laws laid out in the scriptures must be abandoned by the rest of us just because society has changed for the worst.

Yes, when they say that girls who are raped must marry their rapist.

Honestly Traveler this is sad. You and your Bible cannot withstand the beating it is getting, so you have to claim it is saying something it is not.

THAT VERSE HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH FORNICATION. IT IS ABOUT RAPE.

Your Bible basically boils down to this on the subject: If the RAPE VICTIM is being raped in the city and cannot scream loud enough to stop it she is required to marry her rapist. PERIOD. Live with it.

Sammy56

Jun 17th, 2007, 9:14 PM

Traveler, your opinion on fornication is not what we are arguing about. This is about rape. Whether right or wrong, fornication is consenting. Rape isn't. It's forced and causes extreme emotional and psychological damage when it's done to a person. Your Bible doesn't seem to care about that. It wants to force a woman to marry her rapist, force a woman to spend the rest of her life as either an outcast or married to a person who RAPED her.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 17th, 2007, 9:18 PM

The only thing that keeps the population in check is the muscle of the law, without it they would go mad max because they no longer have the self control and commitment to community that they should have. Now days every time a natural disaster occurs its a looting spree instead of looking for those in trouble and helping. You amuse me traveler.You prefer the punishment for rape to be marriage more than you prefer the civil society of today. What has made you so afraid of everything?

Traveler

Jun 18th, 2007, 1:32 AM

It would seem that none of you have seen the implications of this.

To be found out means that she becomes pregnant and can no longer denie it.

But this you have missed, this is from where we get our own customs from and is reflected in many of our own laws on how to handle these types of situations.

The manner in which we conduct our engagement with the rings is derived from here. Not all tribes follow these customs.

When some guy knocks a girl up he is expected to do the right thing and marry her. That practice comes from here. In other nations the ownership of the child belongs to the womans family but because we derive our customs from these verses we ensure that the child is legitimate instead.

It is only since the free love hippy movement that things have changed.

In our courts the father of the child is held responsible for the material support of the child. That law derives from here.

Now why do we no longer stone the offenders. The answer is simple, This law was given to the Holy Nation, The nation that God was to call his own and through which his power was to flow and be demonstrated to all the other nations. The standard of holiness in this nation was to be higher than the rest, hence the severity of the law.

But also keep in mind that the basic family unit was of such high priority in Gods laws that it carried these consequences that you so object to.

You would do better to look at what the law was designed to achieve so as to understand why it was there.

But that doesn't really interest you does it? Your agenda is elsewhere.

jeffweeder

Jun 18th, 2007, 1:51 AM

25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 but unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing;

This looks like rape,-justice done to the woman;

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

Is this rape?
Whats this and "they be found" mean?
Surely the girl is going to say something anyway, because when she does eventually marry, she may find herself in this situation---

{20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones,}
to be avoided at all costs.;

If someone raped my daughter i would give him 50 rocks---to the head and body) not 50 shekels of silver.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 18th, 2007, 1:54 AM

When some guy knocks a girl up he is expected to do the right thing and marry her. When a guy RAPES a girl and she becomes pregnant the right thing to do is for them to get married? You are sick.

Now why do we no longer stone the offenders. The answer is simple, This law was given to the Holy Nation, The nation that God was to call his own and through which his power was to flow and be demonstrated to all the other nations. The standard of holiness in this nation was to be higher than the rest, hence the severity of the law.

But also keep in mind that the basic family unit was of such high priority in Gods laws that it carried these consequences that you so object to.

You would do better to look at what the law was designed to achieve so as to understand why it was there. So you think that stoning a woman for being raped and not marrying her rapist is right and holy.... You are sick.

You know why stoning women was really encouraged back then? It was to keep them in "there place"; not to help encourage family units.... You are sick.

But that doesn't really interest you does it? Your agenda is elsewhere.My agenda is HUMANE. It involves keeping sick peopel like you from power.

You would do well to see a psychiatrist.

Funny thing for me to ask you how you could excuse the horrendous behavior of the god you believe in wasnt it. I mean you not only excuse it but you condone it. Quite hypocritical for you to condemn the "sins" of your gods make believe enemies let alone the "sins" of any mortal person while encouraging the savage murders of rape victims. You are gross.

edit:

This looks like rape,-justice done to the woman;Good save Jeff. Traveler, why werent you aware of this?

jeffweeder

Jun 18th, 2007, 2:29 AM

But why can't we change our minds at some point? Why can't we refuse love at one time and then later accept love?

you can, we all do, but you need time to do it

And why can't people change their mind at a certain time? Why does it ALL have to be decided in physical life- this INFINITELY short amount of time (compared to eternity)?

We grow down here, we define who we are over time and by choice.
But when eternity comes you are what you are with no time to change it.

So these are critical days in which to aquire Spiritual standing that last and define your eternal afterlife.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 18th, 2007, 2:39 AM

But when eternity comes you are what you are with no time to change it.Thats beyond silly jeff. Eternity = no time? Quite ridiculous.

jeffweeder

Jun 18th, 2007, 2:51 AM

Thats beyond silly jeff. Eternity = no time? Quite ridiculous.

haha why?
you think God is controled by time.? the spirit world is controled by time?

I see it as the now moment that never stops

22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

No sun no moon no time....

DontBeAfraid

Jun 18th, 2007, 3:09 AM

No sun no moon no time....Time is not related to the sun or the moon. But if there is any perception of experience then there would be some way to distinguish one moment from the next. If there is any distinction between the moments then that would be time. If there is no distinction then what you are saying is that there would be nothing. With distinction from one moment to the next there is no experience and if nothing is being experienced then there is nothing.

Sammy56

Jun 18th, 2007, 3:31 AM

When some guy knocks a girl up he is expected to do the right thing and marry her. I guess my father should of married my mother, although there was the small inconvenience of his wife in the way. So, your solution doesn't always work.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your statement, even if not applied to rapists. People make mistakes, and even if the sex was consensual, forcing them to marry will probably make both their lives and the lives of their child unhappy. Better for the two to remain friends and be involved in the child's life than marry and hate each other if that is the case. You seem to have this idea that marriage would solve all these problems Traveler, but I totally disagree. Marriage should be between two people who love each other. If they don't, it will cause nothing but an unhappy family. Of course, in the case of rape, as I have said over and over in this thread, forcing that girl to marry her rapist is cruel, unethical, and morally wrong, whether the girl is pregnant or not.

To be found out means that she becomes pregnant and can no longer denie it. Just because she didn't tell anyone doesn't mean it was consensual. Again, imagine being a female in that time. Your ONLY worth was your virginity and if it was stolen from you, you are considered worthless, even if it was against your will. Who wouldn't want to try and hide it?

DBA was right. These laws weren't used to "strengthen society". They were to keep women in their place of inferiority to men. Maybe you are getting the idea that because I say this verse is evil means I feel the entire Bible is evil. Not at all. The Bible is full of a lot of wisdom, especially in the teaching of Christ. You will never see me deny that. But I think you need to see the Bible for what it really is: A book written thousands of years ago by a patriarchal society who engaged in activities (such as subjugating women, owning slaves, etc.) that today's society realizes is wrong and who had a limited world view.

jeffweeder

Jun 18th, 2007, 3:36 AM

Maybe in the spirit world you can experience everything -in a moment.

lk 4
5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 18th, 2007, 4:57 PM

Maybe in the spirit world you can experience everything -in a moment.Ive thought about this, and the only analogy Icome up with is having memories implanted. Then you would seem to experience many moments in one. But still, in order for any reflecting of he memories to be done and even the realization of the new memories you still have to progress from one moment to the next.

Traveler

Jun 18th, 2007, 6:38 PM

Is this rape?
Whats this and "they be found" mean?
Surely the girl is going to say something anyway, because when she does eventually marry, she may find herself in this situation---

{20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones,}
to be avoided at all costs.;

If someone raped my daughter i would give him 50 rocks---to the head and body) not 50 shekels of silver.

Thats what I've been pointing out from way back but you will notice that their attention is locked on the verse before.

They took your first statement as confirmation of of their stand but their minds did not register the second statement. I suspect that there is a lot of what I have posted that has not been absorbed.

But to carry on with the topic it should also be noted that an illegitimate child is not allowed to enter the congregation for the next ten generations. That will entail a whole lot of people that are going to suffer the consequences of this action for a very long time. When comparing the needs of the one against the needs of the many, the hard line attitude in this matter starts to come into perspective.

When God set about establishing a holy nation he left no loopholes for sin uncovered.

Traveler

Jun 18th, 2007, 6:45 PM

This is the other part of the post I made from which DBA obtained the quote from me for his signature.

Looking over the last few posts it would seem that I have been proved correct in this observation as well.

"On the other side of the coin you have all the agnostics etc here that who seem to be under a spirit of dissolution and totally blinded and dead to anything of a spiritual nature. It is as if their mental faculties have been hijacked and they have been preprogrammed to reject God. They are incapable of accepting any form of testinomy or witness from the Christians."

Sammy56

Jun 18th, 2007, 9:35 PM

But to carry on with the topic it should also be noted that an illegitimate child is not allowed to enter the congregation for the next ten generations.That's is just as sick as your forcing a woman to marry her rapist. It's not a child fault that she/he is illegitimate. Why punish the child for what the parents did?

It is as if their mental faculties have been hijacked and they have been preprogrammed to reject GodI don't reject God. I've said that over and over. I do, however, reject your petty ideas that are unethical and wrong.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 18th, 2007, 11:04 PM

This argument is going too fast for me to really sink my teeth in, but I'm gonna address the translation issues on this verse, because no one else is.

The more "friendly" version of the verse (from Jeffweeder) doesn't say "rape". It says, "to lay hold of, to lay with". So you could argue that isn't necessarily rape...

... But, uh, what does it really mean, then?

I hear the words "lay hold of," I hear, "to seize, to grapple, to contain, to impose". None of these are necessarily violent words, but there is an implication of struggle here. Add the idea of struggle with sex (which "to lay with" does imply) you get a picture of someone being sexually approached with force. Which is rape.

I can accept the idea that this might not actually be talking about rape, but only if there's some other translation which makes solid sense in its place. "Rape" isn't spelled out here, but I don't see any other way to read this verse.

Also, I hate to reply to this, but...

"On the other side of the coin you have all the agnostics etc here that who seem to be under a spirit of dissolution and totally blinded and dead to anything of a spiritual nature. It is as if their mental faculties have been hijacked and they have been preprogrammed to reject God. They are incapable of accepting any form of testinomy or witness from the Christians."

From these Christians, or from any Christians?

Because there's a guy whose blog I visit regularly, who is an evangelical Christian, and who I think is incredibly awesome and wise. So I can gain wisdom from Christians in general. The problem comes from the fact that I can't seem to gain wisdom from any Christians here.

I didn't want to be the first to say it, but maybe the problem here isn't me?

Just putting that out there. And I feel justified, because when I joined this forum, I was pretty well-known for defending Christianity even though I wasn't a Christian. It'd be nice to see someone who is Christian stepping up to the plate. And if someone has, please point out to me where and how. Seriously. I'm here to learn. Teach me.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 18th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Thats what I've been pointing out from way back but you will notice that their attention is locked on the verse before.

Ok, are you retarded? (yes I'm being mean- because NO ONE will answer the main questions about hell and all loving with LOGIC)

When reading the Bible we look at the CONTEXT. The previous verse was about a rape in which the girl was in a location where her scream would not be heard. Because of this she is spared condemnation because she " didn't commit a sin deserving of death."

In the next verse it is talking about a sexual act that involves a man "laying hold of" a girl (which as philfoehle pointed out implies struggle) in a place where she COULD cry out. Thus it stands to reason that the verse is talking about a situation where the girl did not cry out, and the reasoning by these men suggests that because she didn't cry out it was consensual. Do you understand this?

Now, what if the man forced her into silence? She is still raped but is forced to marry him. The real problem here is the criteria that rape is defined by. It's only rape if the girl cries out loud enough to be heard.

And just so you know, my paster, Maury Davis (a VERY VERY fundementalist preacher, has said the verse is about RAPE- but the reason she is to marry the rapist is because it's the only way she'll be taken care of, being worthless and all (and there may be doubt). In fact MANY preachers have said that. That was your defense earlier- but it is still crap- because the girl's virginity should not be the only measure of her worth.)

They took your first statement as confirmation of of their stand but their minds did not register the second statement. I suspect that there is a lot of what I have posted that has not been absorbed.

You did not read the whole verse and take it in context. Can't do that with scripture.

But to carry on with the topic it should also be noted that an illegitimate child is not allowed to enter the congregation for the next ten generations. That will entail a whole lot of people that are going to suffer the consequences of this action for a very long time. When comparing the needs of the one against the needs of the many, the hard line attitude in this matter starts to come into perspective.

That is BARBARIC. It is unfair to punish the child. If this is your Holy law, your God is evil.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 18th, 2007, 11:46 PM

In the next verse it is talking about a sexual act that involves a man "laying hold of" a girl (which as philfoehle pointed out implies struggle) in a place where she COULD cry out. Thus it stands to reason that the verse is talking about a situation where the girl did not cry out, and the reasoning by these men suggests that because she didn't cry out it was consensual.

Actually, no, it's worse than that. It's not saying that a girl who cries out is okay. The first of these situations is about rape taking place in the "field", i.e. where there's no one around to hear the girl screaming. If the girl is engaged, she gets the benefit of a doubt (Deut 22:27 For the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.)

The second situation... I'm not entirely sure how to read this. We know the second raped girl wasn't engaged, but I'm not sure if this means an unengaged girl raped in the fields, or an unengaged girl raped anywhere. Not sure which, but either way the girl in question marries her rapist.

Either way, it's not the crying out that's the issue here, exactly. (That does come up, but it's a separate issue.) The question is whether the rapist is violating the marriage contract. If he's not, it's basically no harm, no foul.

Incidentally, if an engaged girl is raped within city limits and doesn't scream for help, she's put to death with her rapist. Charming.

jeffweeder

Jun 19th, 2007, 4:23 AM

So I can gain wisdom from Christians in general. The problem comes from the fact that I can't seem to gain wisdom from any Christians here.

Well thanks for the encourgement.................., ill try to communicate this if it kills me, and yes if only i was better at it.

So PF would you like to introduce us to this superman evangelist, sounds like i need all the help i can get.

I step up to the plate....any qu?

I can assure you my heart is in this, and ill try to be Christs ambassador.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 5:02 AM

ill try to communicate this if it kills me, and yes if only i was better at it.Jeff, for the most part you convey you thoughts without sounding silly or using too much double think. This is why I actually give consideration to what you post.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 19th, 2007, 8:13 AM

You're right, Jeff, you do step up, and it's wrong of me to suggest you don't. My apologies. I just get frustrated when someone suggests I'm a bigot or an idiot because I don't automatically subscribe to the party line.

But again, yes, you're right. I'm overgeneralizing. There are plenty of Christians on here whose opinions I respect, and you are one of them.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 6:11 PM

Ya know I think I just figured it out, because if "they"(generality of unbelievers, no one in particular here!) were to believe in God, an all powerful ,Holy, Creator of the universe, then they would, become accountable. They would have to accept that there are spiritual laws that you must obey, they would understand their sinful nature, and their lives would change. Once they made a commitment to God, they would then realize that their free will was fully gone! once you choose God you can't unchoose him, it dosen't work thataway. when you have a relationship with God things change, you might get laughed at, belittled, humiliated, spat upon, cursed andcussed. But those things are from people... You get something that is worth enduring all of those things for.. you get Joy that flows from a wellspring that never runs dry, you get an everlasting love that makes all earthly relationships pale by comparison, you get a peace that the world does not understand that flows from his Holy fingertips straight into the center of your being.. Once you have experienced this ,your life will never be the same ,I guarentee it...
I am climbing down off my soap box here, and I will never participate in a prove God debate again.. You either want him or you don't, if you don't..why argue? It's not going to persued any of us who have gained just these top three that he is not there and we are not called according to his divine plan, If you do want to know God and his Love Peace and Joy and a million other things he has to offer and are even the slightest bit curious how to recieve them shoot me a PM and we will go from there...

Thanks, I was womdering when a believer was gonna answer my initial question. :bounce: Good answer too. You nailed it, IMHO.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 6:22 PM

Good answer too. You nailed it, IMHO.Yes, she recited the cookie cutter answer htat christians give each other for this question. Problem is, its not correct.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 6:33 PM

I love that , that is brilliant!

I concur Cherisa. Oh, BTW, it's good to be back. I was away for a bit.......obviosly.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 6:53 PM

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 6:58 PM

Do you have anything at all to add to the discussion eyeball?

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:00 PM

Yes, she recited the cookie cutter answer htat christians give each other for this question. Problem is, its not correct.

And I have accepted the fact that you don't understand what it is that you are saying because YOU are blinded by your own pride. So, it's all good, GOD still loves you and so do I.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:03 PM

Do you have anything at all to add to the discussion eyeball?

Not really anymore. I gave up trying to explain it to ya's, it seems pointless. GOD will hafta convince you of the truth. I have let it go, but, I started the post, and I can add my :0.02: whenever I feel the need. Any other questions DBA??

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:04 PM

So you dont have any answers to any questions. You dont even have the courage to try and answer any of them. Maybe its best this way, you would probably fail miserably.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:08 PM

So you dont have any answers to any questions. You dont even have the courage to try and answer any of them. Maybe its best this way, you would probably fail miserably.

And your probably right about that, but, I will answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. I do not claim to have all the answers. I also don't want to figure it all out. I know what I know and that is all there is to it. I believe what I believe, and that makes me what I am. Who are you DBA? What do you identify with? Do you know your purpose? Just curious.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:15 PM

Who are you DBA? What do you identify with? Do you know your purpose?I am who I am. Identity? Purpose? These things change with the time.

There are 150+ posts in the thread, many of htem contain questions that have yet to be answered. Read the entire thread and give a couple of them a go.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:20 PM

I am who I am. Identity? Purpose? These things change with the time.

There are 150+ posts in the thread, many of htem contain questions that have yet to be answered. Read the entire thread and give a couple of them a go.

How bout this, I don't want to go back through all that and pick one, why don't YOU ask me one and lets see if I can help you out.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:21 PM

I am who I am. Identity? Purpose? These things change with the time.

Nice question dodging yourself.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 7:37 PM

Nice question dodging yourself.

That was the answer. You think its possible to sum up the whole of a person in one post? If I ever write an autobiography Ill give you a copy. Deal.

How bout this, I don't want to go back through all that and pick one, why don't YOU ask me one and lets see if I can help you out.How about you READ THE FUCKING THREAD and join the conversation.

allseeingeye

Jun 19th, 2007, 8:34 PM

That was the answer. You think its possible to sum up the whole of a person in one post? If I ever write an autobiography Ill give you a copy. Deal.

How about you READ THE FUCKING THREAD and join the conversation.

Kinda rude huh? I've read the thread, when you are redy to ask me a question just lemme know.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 8:52 PM

Sinse you dont want to answer any of the questions ALREADY in the thread Ill ask you this:

Why did you create this thread if you werent interested in any of the real answers to your original question. What was the point of asking how you might help convince non christians that you are right if you were only ever planning on giving a pat on the back to the christians who responded with the regurgitated, stereotypical-christian non answer of "They actually KNOW we are right but they are afraid of it because they dont want to be responsible....."? Are there not enough places where christians can pat themselves on the back while looking down their hypocritical noses at me?

Do you understand my question?

Cherisa

Jun 19th, 2007, 10:08 PM

I have read the entire thread and participated in it to an extent, I have seen no legitimate inquiries from you. really.
You do a thing with your posts that I call "word salad". You never ask a direct question and you don't want an answer.The questions are baited and misleading. Your disambiguation is not contributing to the furtherance of anything valid you wish to know!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 10:57 PM

No legitimate inquiries? Word Salad? Please explain, I asked several questions and a few I repeated.

You never ask a direct question and you don't want an answer.
Just becuase you WONT answer or you dont like the answer doesnt mean I dont want you to answer.

The questions are baited and misleading.The questions are the ones that make me dislike many versions of christianity. The questions I ask are questions that I have a hard time believing christians dont ask themselves.

Your disambiguation is not contributing to the furtherance of anything valid you wish to know!Actually I have learned a great deal about just how much evil certain christians are are prepared to turn a blind eye to. Worse than that, just how much most are prepared to not merely ignore but CONDONE! I do not mislead with my questions, I use them to lead your thoughts, and hopefully answers, to the correct aspect of my confusion.

That means that when I ask qustions about how your god could do this or that, I dont want the answer "god works in mysterious ways" or "we cant understand god". I mean, there would be no inqueries if christians werent always pretending to know all about their god in the first place. When I ask those questions its because I want to know how you, as a moral human, could condone such evil. With most non answers I learn that many many christians are simply engaged in double think(thanks orwell) and that they dont really condone it but through fear or some other mechanism cant question it or break the double think. Other times however, like with traveler, I learn that deep down the person is just kinda evil themselves. No double think going on, just a genuine two-face.

And I took a glance at the rest of the thread and I asked several point blank questions.

Cherisa

Jun 19th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Okay so you want to know why God kills babies or if he is so loving why do people burn in hell. I think those questions have been answered many ,many, many times, possibly not to your satisfaction, but then the world does not revolve around you. so you are just like a child, but why? Becuse.. But why...God doesn't need proving. now, kiss the afro :afro:

DontBeAfraid

Jun 19th, 2007, 11:41 PM

The questions have yet to be answered with anything more than a dodge... like your post.

Okay so you want to know why God kills babies or if he is so loving why do people burn in hell.These are close to my questions but not quite, so Ill rephrase them then you can answer directly maybe?

How can you call your god ALL loving and ALL powerful if anyone is in hell?

How can you think that you have freewill if your god knows your path?

So you are just like a child, but why? Becuase.. But why...Because Is not an acceptable answer when you are talking about eternal torture.... If you can simply shrug off the idea that your god tortures anyone for all eternity then it is because you are a bad person.

In your case, Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are simply engaged in double think because you dont seem all that evil and so its much easier for you to pretend that the idea of eternally torturing someone can somehow coexist with being all loving and perfect. Its sad that your religion has destroyed your brain and prevents you from critical thought..... it really is.

Traveler

Jun 20th, 2007, 4:27 AM

No legitimate inquiries? Word Salad? Please explain, I asked several questions and a few I repeated.

Just becuase you WONT answer or you dont like the answer doesnt mean I dont want you to answer.

The questions are the ones that make me dislike many versions of christianity. The questions I ask are questions that I have a hard time believing christians dont ask themselves.

Actually I have learned a great deal about just how much evil certain christians are are prepared to turn a blind eye to. Worse than that, just how much most are prepared to not merely ignore but CONDONE! I do not mislead with my questions, I use them to lead your thoughts, and hopefully answers, to the correct aspect of my confusion.

That means that when I ask qustions about how your god could do this or that, I dont want the answer "god works in mysterious ways" or "we cant understand god". I mean, there would be no inqueries if christians werent always pretending to know all about their god in the first place. When I ask those questions its because I want to know how you, as a moral human, could condone such evil. With most non answers I learn that many many christians are simply engaged in double think(thanks orwell) and that they dont really condone it but through fear or some other mechanism cant question it or break the double think. Other times however, like with traveler, I learn that deep down the person is just kinda evil themselves. No double think going on, just a genuine two-face.

And I took a glance at the rest of the thread and I asked several point blank questions.

No DBA I;m not being two faced and I am not being evil. There is a part of the social aspect that you have never encountered here in the west so you will not be aware of it but I will try to put it into perspective so you can see how this all ties in.

When these laws were given it was to a culture that was still practicing the old tribal laws very similar to what is still found in primitive cultures to this very day.

In these old cultures a female always belongs to someone. They are never cut loose and left to drift like a male because they have a value attached to them in that they are the ones that are capable of the production of children and as such represent the future strength in numbers of any particular clan or group. The more females you have the greater your future security. As in your kids represent your pension plan. Only problem was that any male in the clan could breed off of them.

In other words a female is something special unlike our present culture where they are not in short supply and are considered equal or in most cases the competition in the work place. Under equality they have no special significance attached to them other than their individuality.

Now it was into this old tribal culture that these laws were introduced and they were designed to produce specific objectives.

1. This was to be a holy nation that was to be different from the nations around them and they where not to intermix their blood lines in any way. They were to stay separate.

2. To ensure the survivability of this nation it was to use many separate and individual family groups as its basic building block. Not a case of a tribe to raise a child but a family to raise a child. That way if the nation gets scattered only complete building blocks move, not broken pieces. That way the rebuilding of the original social structure is almost instantaneous where ever a group of these blocks come back together.

3. Now God knew that bad things were going to happen so he needed to make provision to discourage in the first place and if that didn't work, then eliminate the problem altogether so that it could not fester and spread thus contaminating the structure.

Hence we have these laws that seem so harsh but make sense when you look at what they are designed to achieve. Remember that God avoided the abomination of the prison system because of the damage it does to the prisoners but introduced the concept of the bad lands instead where the criminal could literally take himself out of society without the psychological damage that interment produces. IT was always a case of either make restitution in the form of damages or banishment from the society and in worst cases, just kill the offender outright and be done with it.

Now adultery and rape was guaranteed to break down these family units and was to be discouraged at all costs, hence it carried the death penalty. You cannot have a holy nation that is rampant with STD's. But fornication can be repaired with the less less violent method of forming a separate family unit out of the situation.

The cry out part in these laws is to distinguish between what is adultery and what is rape. The cry out part does not have to be during the act, it can also be after the deed is done and it gets reported. These laws force the issue to come into the open where it has to be dealt with and can't remain hidden. The stoning ensures that other are discouraged from doing this type of thing in the future.

Traveler

Jun 20th, 2007, 5:08 AM

These are close to my questions but not quite, so Ill rephrase them then you can answer directly maybe?

How can you call your god ALL loving and ALL powerful if anyone is in hell?

How can you think that you have freewill if your god knows your path?

.

The first question

God has left satan to do his thing for a while and look at the result. He has the whole of his creation to take into consideration when weighing it up against the needs of an individual human. Now if you have a whole lot of little Hitlers or Pol Pots running around loose for all eternity what is going to be their combined effect on the rest of creation. Look at the terrible situation on this earth and imagine it on a cosmic scale!

Now the unfortunate thing is that the human was originally designed to be eternal in nature. That means that once the human soul has developed it can't be destroyed. Hence the scriptures are warning us to save our souls and satan is out to entrap our souls, neither has any real interest in our temporary bodies.

Now you tell me! What is God to do with a soul that is eternal in nature and can't be destroyed, if he cant let it run loose in the rest of creation because of the damage it will do? It has to be placed somewhere because it can't be gotten rid of.

Now for the second question

So what if God knows your path? You are still the one that decides to walk it, no one else is choosing your steps for you!

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 20th, 2007, 5:27 AM

He has the whole of his creation to take into consideration when weighing it up against the needs of an individual human.

And it's impossible for him to protect creation without torturing people forever?

Now if you have a whole lot of little Hitlers or Pol Pots running around loose for all eternity what is going to be their combined effect on the rest of creation. Look at the terrible situation on this earth and imagine it on a cosmic scale!

So, why can't God redeem Hitler, rather than torturing him forever?

And if this is a decision to protect the universe, why is Christianity the cut-off? Are you telling me Gandhi is a danger to celestial society, but Ferdinand II of Aragon is exactly the kind of guy God wants as a neighbor?

Now the unfortunate thing is that the human was originally designed to be eternal in nature. That means that once the human soul has developed it can't be destroyed.

... Can't?

God... can't? Omnipotent God... can't?

Do you not see the problem here?

What is God to do with a soul that is eternal in nature and can't be destroyed, if he cant let it run loose in the rest of creation because of the damage it will do?

Heal the damaged soul, obviously.

Think about it. You're a doctor, dealing with a cancer patient who has a tumor in his arm. The cancer has sunk into the bone, and will spread to the rest of the body if it isn't stopped. However, you've got an invention which will completely eradicate all the cancerous cells, with 100% accuracy. Do you use your invention, or do you chop off the arm?

Flynn

Jun 20th, 2007, 7:25 AM

satan is out to entrap our soulsWhy does Satan need souls?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:48 AM

Now you tell me! What is God to do with a soul that is eternal in nature and can't be destroyed, if he cant let it run loose in the rest of creation because of the damage it will do? It has to be placed somewhere because it can't be gotten rid of.Now Im quite sure traveler doesnt know the meaning of omnipotent. Its sad really. Its also sad that traveler recognizes that the suggestions in the bible were for a time in the past and that the suggestions dont really apply to the world today, but he argues for their implementation.

Traveler aside from the religious wars stemming from the middle east the world is doing quite well.

Traveler do you have any answers to the question:
How can you call your god ALL loving and ALL powerful if anyone is in hell?
That dont invlove changing the question to be a about a non-omnipotent god?

So what if God knows your path? You are still the one that decides to walk it, no one else is choosing your steps for you!If I can never take any steps that your god doesnt know Im going to take then I dont have freewill. Only its illusion. If I do have freewill then your god CANT know what I will do next and is therefore not omnipotent.

Traveler it occurs to me that you might have some breathing room to argue here if you would flat out admit what all of your answers have already implied: You dont believe that your god is omnipotent.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 20th, 2007, 1:06 PM

If I can never take any steps that your god doesnt know Im going to take then I dont have freewill.

I don't know if that's true. It could just be an issue of adding up the factors. Humans are the product of their upbringing, their genetics, their environments and (possibly, theoretically) their souls. An omniscient being should be able to add up all the influences and figure out what you're going to do in any given situation. So, it's not a case of people not being allowed to make choices, just a case of those choices being really, really predictable.

nrj

Jun 20th, 2007, 1:22 PM

I don't know if that's true. It could just be an issue of adding up the factors. Humans are the product of their upbringing, their genetics, their environments and (possibly, theoretically) their souls. An omniscient being should be able to add up all the influences and figure out what you're going to do in any given situation. So, it's not a case of people not being allowed to make choices, just a case of those choices being really, really predictable. The thing is, god created me and knew I was going to reject him and be thrown into hell once I die. Therefore, I didn't choose to be thrown into hell, because if I had a choice between not ever being born or be thrown into hell at the end of my life, I would choose not to be born.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 20th, 2007, 1:32 PM

The thing is, god created me and knew I was going to reject him and be thrown into hell once I die.

I reject the idea of Hell for this very reason. So that really isn't an issue for me. If God exists, he knew you wouldn't believe in him, but he's omnipotent and infinitely loving, so I doubt he'd get his panties in a bunch over it.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:24 PM

as said by DBA:

Why did you create this thread if you werent interested in any of the real answers to your original question.

Dude, I am interested in the answers, thats why I created the thread. I knew why I didn't believe in GOD at one point in my life, and believe me, I HATED GOD and everything to do with religion, and still, am not a big fan of religion. I wanted to know why alot of other folks don't believe in GOD.

I have a good idea why most people don't or can't believe. Most of the time it is human pride and arrogance that prevents them from believing in GOD. It is our fallen nature, the "flesh" that keeps us questioning GOD in all His Glory. I have asked the same questions as you at one point DBA, I have been there.

I still have questions that bounce around in my head. Like I said before, I don't claim to have all the answers, and I am still questioning GOD. But that is only human. Does not make me a hippocrite, does not make me a bad person, it is ok to question the Almighty GOD, he can take it, believe me.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:30 PM

An omniscient being should be able to add up all the influences and figure out what you're going to do in any given situation. So, it's not a case of people not being allowed to make choices, just a case of those choices being really, really predictable.Now you have realized that your freewill may very well be an illusion congrats.

If everything behaves in a certain way and you were somehow able to add up all the behaviors and know what was going to happen next then nothing can happen that isnt already predestined to happen. That is, if you know all the rules of bahavior for everything in existence and nothing could break those rules then everything is predestined and nothing has "free will".

If the god can know what path everything will take then it is NOT just making predictions it is knowing the future. If it knows the future there is no free will. Assuming the god is omniscient, like christians are, then it knows the path of every element of existence from beginning to end and therefore there is no free will.

If the god is only guessing, even if incredibly accurate, then it is not omniscient.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:30 PM

As said by DBA:

What was the point of asking how you might help convince non christians that you are right if you were only ever planning on giving a pat on the back to the christians who responded with the regurgitated, stereotypical-christian non answer of "They actually KNOW we are right but they are afraid of it because they dont want to be responsible....."?

Ok, if you look at the original question, I asked nothing about help convincing others. As a matter a fact, the question I posed to the non-believers (which obviosly is you) was why don't you believe and why is it so hard to believe.

To all the Christians on this sight. Why is it so hard to PROVE GOD as I have so miserably tried to do in a recent thread? I know I probably wasn't anointed to try and do it, I definately wasn't called to do it, and I know I don't need to defend GOD or Yeshua, they can do that by themselves. Is the unbeleivers heart so hard that they can't accept it as truth? That GOD loves them and wants to have a relationship with them. Why is it so hard to believe? What makes them want to lash out and want PROOF that He exists? Someone help me wit htis age old question. Give me your input. All you unbeleivers, lemme ask ya this. Why don't you beleive? Is it so hard to believe that there is a GOD that created Everything? Just curious.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:33 PM

Now you have realized that your freewill may very well be an illusion congrats.

You are one arrogant man. It is pointless to even try and talk to you. Good luck in life buddy.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:52 PM

I knew why I didn't believe in GOD at one point in my life, and believe me, I HATED GOD Hating a god is NOT the same as not believing in one.

I have a good idea why most people don't or can't believe. Most of the time it is human pride and arrogance that prevents them from believing in GOD. It is our fallen nature, the "flesh" that keeps us questioning GOD in all His Glory. You are such a load of crap. Again you think Im not going to notice you parroting your dogma. Guess what buddy, this particular dogma is not in place because its the truth, its in place to help prevent people like you from questioning their faith. In essence this particular dogma is calling all people who question your faith or dont share your beliefs selfish assholes.

I have asked the same questions as you at one point DBA, I have been there. You have NOT experienced the awareness that I currently do. This is evidenced by your admission of "hating god". You cant hate someone you dont believe exists. You maybe had a poor lot at one point in your life and you blamed your god. But you always believed. There are so many things in your life that you will never question and never will.

I(and many like me), on the other hand, have gone through the trouble of examining our very foundation and reforming more reasonable conclusions. I dont hate your god, I cant, thats like hating the easter bunny. I hate the behavior caused by your belief in your god. I hate the smug attitude you display due to your religious dogma; such as your certainty that nobody really lacks belief in your god.

why don't you believe and why is it so hard to believe. I believe that gravity will keep me on the planet barring extreme effort on my part. I believe that if I touch a hot stove I will feel pain. I believe that when I am thirsty, if I drink, it will quench my thirst. I believe these things because they are persistant and reliable and can be used to help me guess the future(in reguards to the specific acts themselves).

Belief in a god does nothing for me. The reason I dont believe is because I have no reason to. I do have reason to believe that a hot stove will burn me.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 2:54 PM

You are one arrogant man. It is pointless to even try and talk to you. Good luck in life buddy.yes, admitting that I might not have freewill makes me arrogant...

List of words christians dont know the meaning of:
1. Persecution
2. omnipotent
3. moniscient
4. Arrogant

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 3:02 PM

yes, admitting that I might not have freewill makes me arrogant...

List of words christians dont know the meaning of:
1. Persecution
2. omnipotent
3. moniscient
4. Arrogant

And presumptuous. I know what each of those mean, you are the one that has no clue. You are blinded by something that stares you in the face and blateantly LAUGHS at you. The devil laughs at you, he has you right where he wants you. I question GOD, true, but that does not make me believe that He isn't real. I have faith that He knows what He is doing. I do not see the Big picture, but at least I am open to it.

I have hope too, if someone I know dies, I have hope that i will see them again in heaven. What do you have? Do you have that HOPE DBA??

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 3:24 PM

I question GODliar.... thats a sin according to you.

The devil laughs at you, he has you right where he wants you.I dont submit to your doctrine of fear. Your threats of eternally torturing me are useless and silly and very very christian. Its sickening really.

I know what each of those mean,You see, your answers to many of my questions indicate that you dont really know what they mean. Or at least that you think their meanings are more flexible than they really are.

I have hope too, if someone I know dies, I have hope that i will see them again in heaven. What do you have? Do you have that HOPE DBA??Are you asking what I believe happens after I die? Have you ever considered that if you are never going see a person again and their presence on this earth will not affect you again that they are the same as dead to you. That guy or girl that you said goodbye to so long ago because your ways were parting never to cross again is equivalent to any dead person.

Do I hope to see loved ones in heaven? I have no belief in hell so in that form I must say no to the question. If I change the question to : Do I hope to see loved ones after I die? I cant answer, I dont have an answer. As I am I can only guess at my future until the point of death. Just like I cant recall anything before my birth(actually my first memory was at like 3-4 years old). As such I can say that I will miss the person until I die and beyond that all bets are off.

I dont need your belief in a god to experience and question my own existance.

Cherisa

Jun 20th, 2007, 4:01 PM

The thing is, god created me and knew I was going to reject him and be thrown into hell once I die. Therefore, I didn't choose to be thrown into hell, because if I had a choice between not ever being born or be thrown into hell at the end of my life, I would choose not to be born.

You don't have a choice about existing until you exist now that you exist you can choose to stop exisisting at any point in time...

DBA , I will get around to your inqueries when I have more time.Thank you for your patience..

Sammy56

Jun 20th, 2007, 5:20 PM

It is our fallen nature, the "flesh" that keeps us questioning GOD in all His Glory.Are you saying that questioning God is sinful? Maybe not, but that's what I think you are implying. That's crap. How can you not question God? Questioning isn't a bad thing. It's how you learn. I have never spoken to God face to face. All I "know" about God (assuming he exists) it what I've learned from the religions of the world. I'm damn well going to question them. Never believe something blindly. It's one of the stupidest things you can do. Always question and find out for YOURSELF. You're beliefs will be stronger that way.

I knew why I didn't believe in GOD at one point in my life, and believe me, I HATED GODDo you mean you hated the idea of God? Because, if not, that is a contradictory sentence. I don't see how you can logically hate something that exists. And just because you hated and didn't believe in God doesn't mean that's how all atheists feel. Some just don't find the idea of God necessary to their lives. It's a different way of thinking.

why don't you believe and why is it so hard to believe.Atheist probably don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Christianity and some other major religions. Whether you admit it or not, it paints God as a very cruel entity who sends people for eternal torment for sins that are disputed themselves. While I am agnostic, not atheist, I understand exactly why they don't believe in God and don't blame them in the least.

Traveler

Jun 20th, 2007, 7:04 PM

I notice that many of you are making the assumption that God knows what you are going to do through probabilities.

Just a short correction on that point.

According to what is indicated from the scriptures God is outside of our time line. He is unaffected by the paradoxes that we are subject to. The recorded scriptures indicate that he sees the beginning from the end. In other words he is located at th end of time looking down the time stream to the beginning. From this vantage point he is able to see what each individual has done, is doing and is going to do.

That does not mean that he is in any way interfering in what we are doing, we are still the ones doing it, he is simply in the position to have observed everything that we have done through out our entire lives. After all if we did not have the free will to start with then we could not be held accountable for our actions could we.

As for why he allows those that will never believe to continue, Well even the unbeliever will have an influence on those around them. In many cases the unbelief of the one will be a learning experience for the other that does believe.

Now as I have already been painted as the bad guy here I will throw out another tidbit to get you really throthing at the mouth. I picked up a little side verse that indicated why it is a lake of fire that becomes the final end for those who set themselves up against their God.

You are made up of a body, soul and spirit. A type of three in one. The spirit and soul are very closely interlinked but the spirit part of you still belongs to God regardless of what you think of him. The reason for the lake of fire is to burn the soul away from the spirit. In other words it will be a purification process for the spirit so as to be cleaned of the worthless soul. The soul remains in the fire but the spirit, once cleaned returns back to God from whence it came.

Like I said before, there is a reason for everything!

Traveler

Jun 20th, 2007, 7:29 PM

I reject the idea of Hell for this very reason. So that really isn't an issue for me. If God exists, he knew you wouldn't believe in him, but he's omnipotent and infinitely loving, so I doubt he'd get his panties in a bunch over it.

I keep pointing this out to you guys but for some reason it never seems to sink in.

God never made any claim to be infinitely loving

He made it quite clear that revenge belongs to him, He will repay his enemy's.

Like us God has the full range of emotions, or more to the point we are like him with the full range of emotions.

Now he may be motivated by love to do many of the things that he does but the love that he displays for the one may be to the detriment of the other. When God lead his holy nation to the promised land did he display love to the Philistines that were there at the time. Certainly not. He instructed the Israelite to not only slaughter them but their livestock as well.

But this needs to be noted as well. When Abraham first entered the promised land it was not handed over to him or his descendants until 400 years later. Thats why it was called the promised land, it was given in a promise that was to be met later. The reason being that the inhabitants at that time had not yet filled up their measure of sin.

Judgment only falls on the generation that is ready for it. Until that time the nation is left in peace. No nation is exempt, even the holy nation, when they went off the rails later they got burned as well. Do not think that our current civilization is not subject to this as well.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 8:06 PM

liar.... thats a sin according to you.

Your a fool. I never said anything to that effect. Your reaching and grasping for something to argue about. I will not participate in conversations with you any more. See ya.:bye:

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:12 PM

*sigh* Every time I go to work.

I have a good idea why most people don't or can't believe. Most of the time it is human pride and arrogance that prevents them from believing in GOD.

Now, I'm a pretty firm believer in God. I like to think that counts for something, even if I'm not a Christian.

But I'm also pretty clear on the idea that saying, "Atheists don't believe in an invisible being in the sky? What ARROGANCE!" is, uh, pretty silly. I'm aware that, if not for historic and emotional backing, the idea of God would be absurd. That's why we're believers. Some people prefer to stick to logic, and that's not arrogance. That's reacting to a logical world with logic.

If everything behaves in a certain way and you were somehow able to add up all the behaviors and know what was going to happen next then nothing can happen that isnt already predestined to happen. That is, if you know all the rules of bahavior for everything in existence and nothing could break those rules then everything is predestined and nothing has "free will".

Fair enough, but I suspect you could apply this to many atheistic schools of thought. Although I can't remember why we started this discussion, so that could be irrelevant. Just sayin'.

Ok, if you look at the original question, I asked nothing about help convincing others. As a matter a fact, the question I posed to the non-believers (which obviosly is you) was why don't you believe and why is it so hard to believe.

WTF? That's not true at all.

To all the Christians on this sight. Why is it so hard to PROVE GOD as I have so miserably tried to do in a recent thread?

You're aware we can go back and look at previous posts, right? You might double-check before you say this sort of thing next time.

You are blinded by something that stares you in the face and blateantly LAUGHS at you. The devil laughs at you, he has you right where he wants you.

Blaming the devil for human psychology is the act of someone who has no idea what he's talking about. And who has no desire to actually find out, which is far worse.

I notice that many of you are making the assumption that God knows what you are going to do through probabilities.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm only mentioning possibilities. I'm well aware that I don't know exactly how God operates - I'm human, I could hardly be arrogant enough to presume to grasp his plan.

And if God plays us around the world like a giant chessboard, I don't really have a problem with that. Of course, I believe in a loving God, so I don't have one hell of a lot to worry about in the long-run.

According to what is indicated from the scriptures God is outside of our time line. He is unaffected by the paradoxes that we are subject to. The recorded scriptures indicate that he sees the beginning from the end. In other words he is located at th end of time looking down the time stream to the beginning. From this vantage point he is able to see what each individual has done, is doing and is going to do.

That does not mean that he is in any way interfering in what we are doing, we are still the ones doing it, he is simply in the position to have observed everything that we have done through out our entire lives.

... Of course, that still means my decisions have, in God's view, already been made. So if you accept DBA's definition of free will (which, granted, I'm not sure I do), we don't have free will.

That's the trick with time travel. God can't change what happens in this world, obviously. He already knows where I end up. Which means that every decision I'll ever make is already determined. Which means my path is predestined. Thus, destiny.

Frankly, I think the whole discussion is irrelevant in terms of ethics. Unless God is actively controlling our decisions, we're still making the decisions, whether said decisions were already mapped out or not.

... And, of course, I have to wonder where you came up with this theory. Is it biblically based? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm honestly curious.

You are made up of a body, soul and spirit. A type of three in one. The spirit and soul are very closely interlinked but the spirit part of you still belongs to God regardless of what you think of him. The reason for the lake of fire is to burn the soul away from the spirit. In other words it will be a purification process for the spirit so as to be cleaned of the worthless soul. The soul remains in the fire but the spirit, once cleaned returns back to God from whence it came.

And God can't come up with a purification process that doesn't leave the soul to suffer eternally?

God never made any claim to be infinitely loving

1 John 7: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

These verses shows that the Christian God is defined by love. Because God himself is infinite, anything that defines him must by necessity be infinite as well. You are wrong.

... But that's no fun. Let's logic this sucker. *grins and rubs his hands together*

Okay, Traveler, let me explain why God doesn't have to be infinitely loving. He only has to be loving, period.

God is, according to you, omnipotent. Correct? This means he has infinite powers. Correct?

Now, can we also agree that, if God is omnipotent, there can be no other omnipotent being or force, correct? Otherwise, God and this other force might meet, at which point we would have a unstoppable force/immovable object paradox. And because no other creature can be omnipotent, they cannot have infinite powers. Therefore, they must have finite powers, meaning it would take God a finite amount of power to destroy, imprison or change them. Correct?

Now. What is a finite number - any finite number - divided by infinity?

The answer - it is infinitesimal. Therefore, it would take God an infinitesimal amount of his power to destroy, imprison or change anything, correct?

Now, here's the tricky part. Assume for a second that God, like us, measures worth of effort by what can be gained. If God wants to protect us, it is because he loves us. So, in order to expend an infinitesimal amount of power on our behalf, he must have at least an infinitesimal amount of love for us. Correct?

And it's impossible to get a value smaller than infinitesimal without hitting zero. Correct?

So, if God loves us - even to such a small degree that we cannot comprehend how little he loves us - he would expend the energy to save us. Because the energy it would take is such a trifling to him, it does not even exist as an actual fraction.

Please feel free to point out flaws in my logic. But also, please don't dismiss this out of hand. I'd really like you to think about this.

Sammy56

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:30 PM

These verses shows that the Christian God is defined by love.Curse you Philosopher. I tried finding a verse to support omnibenevolence, but I didn't have any luck. Show off. :D

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:33 PM

Curse you Philosopher. I tried finding a verse to support omnibenevolence, but I didn't have any luck. Show off.

Well, if it makes you feel better, I messed up the subject-verb tense agreement there. "Verses shows"? What the hell was I thinking?

DontBeAfraid

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:37 PM

Your a fool. I never said anything to that effect. Your reaching and grasping for something to argue about. I will not participate in conversations with you any more. See ya.Sorry, I assumed you subsribed to the ten commandments sinse you are a christian. I was unaware that there was a christian sect that believes lying is different than bearing false witness.... Either way you have never questioned your belief in your god, only whether or not you like it.

edit: and btw, you are not the first christian to cow out of proving your gods perfection to me. No, just like many before you, you have found the crossroads where you must begin to think and decided to turn around and go home instead....lol
Fair enough, but I suspect you could apply this to many atheistic schools of thought.Indeed it does, but Im not going about claiming the existance of two mutually exclusive realitites. My answer to freewill is that I know I have at least the illusion of it even if everything can be predetermined.

Now he may be motivated by love to do many of the things that he does but the love that he displays for the one may be to the detriment of the other. When God lead his holy nation to the promised land did he display love to the Philistines that were there at the time. Certainly not. He instructed the Israelite to not only slaughter them but their livestock as well. I see, your entire foundation for worshipping your god is out of fear of its mood swings; out of the ffear that your god weill take revenge on you should you disobey it, even though you can ONLY ever do what it knew you would before it made you..... How insane is that.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:45 PM

As said by Sammy:

Are you saying that questioning God is sinful? Maybe not, but that's what I think you are implying.

Not what I am implying at all Sammy. I was saying that I have questioned GOD and I still do, IT is human nature too, It is a good thing to question HIM! :)

Do you mean you hated the idea of God? Because, if not, that is a contradictory sentence. I don't see how you can logically hate something that exists. And just because you hated and didn't believe in God doesn't mean that's how all atheists feel. Some just don't find the idea of God necessary to their lives. It's a different way of thinking.

No, I HATED GOD Sammy, it is not contradictory. To say I hated Ice Cream but love chocolate ice cream would be contradictory. I hated GOD because I love to do the evil things NOT of GOD. I certainly was not an Athiest, I would lean more towards a Satanists if I had to label what I was before I got Saved.

Never believe something blindly. Again, I agree wholeheartedly with this Sammy.

it paints God as a very cruel entity who sends people for eternal torment for sins that are disputed themselves.

Ok, this seems to be the big stumbling block here. GOD is a Rightious and Holy GOD. NO sin can come before Him or it will perish, that is why Satan was cast out of Heaven. At this point Satan became ruler of the earth. He Hates GOD and wants to take out GODS fav creation, Mankind. So Satan has his way with us to take us all to Hell with him through sin. GOD knows that is Satans plan and send Yeshua down to redeem mankind from that sin. At this point Mankind has a choice. Believe in the Christ or follow satan. Those that believe are redeemed and saved, those that don't follow satan into hell. Look, I know it sucks and it does not seem fair to us, I'm with ya on that. Life is not fair though. GOD is fair and has the way out through the Shed Blood of Yeshua. It's all about GOD's LOVE. He LOVES us and does not want us to perish, Thus the Messiah to redeem us from our sin. Through Him GOD does not SEE our SIN, even tho the Devil is standing there accusing you, God does not see it cause Yeshua is sayin, "Look pop, he is innocent"

WTF? That's not true at all.

uh, yes it is. I said nothing about help convincing. I was asking the believers why it's so hard to PROVE GOD. I mean, you cannot see Him or touch Him. But I know he is there. Some folks do not believe that He even exists.

Sammy56

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:53 PM

Believe in the Christ or follow satan. Your logic here is so black and white. Why can't someone not follow Christ (ie, follow a different religion) and be a good person? Just because you aren't Christian doesn't make you a follower of Satan.

Not what I am implying at all Sammy. I was saying that I have questioned GOD and I still do, IT is human nature too, It is a good thing to question HIM! :) My apologies for misunderstanding than.

No, I HATED GOD Sammy, it is not contradictory.You said you didn't believe in God and than you said you hated him. The two are mutually exclusive. You cannot hate something you don't believe in.

allseeingeye

Jun 20th, 2007, 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by allseeingeye (in the first post)
To all the Christians on this sight. Why is it so hard to PROVE GOD as I have so miserably tried to do in a recent thread?

You're aware we can go back and look at previous posts, right? You might double-check before you say this sort of thing next time.

Uhh, yes I understand that, ya think I'm stupid or something? The question does not even pertain to you, and it still says absolutely nothing (at least as I am reading it) that I was asking for help in CONVINCING others about GOD. So shush.

You said you didn't believe in God and than you said you hated him. The two are mutually exclusive. You cannot hate something you don't believe in.

Fair enough, and good point. I see now why the confusion. Sorry. I meant hate. I get the jimmy fingers sometimes when I type and think.

Your logic here is so black and white. Why can't someone not follow Christ (ie, follow a different religion) and be a good person? Just because you aren't Christian doesn't make you a follower of Satan.

It is black and white, and it is that simple. No other religions have a redeemer that is still alive and sitting on the right hand side of GOD in the throneroom. It is Scriptural, the only way to the Father is through the Son. No other religions can get you there. It is impossible. So yeah, sorry, that poor Hindu woman that worships a cow and sling cow poo on her floor will perish for not believing in Christ. It sucks, but that is the way GOD has it set up. I think that if they have never heard of Yeshua that they may be spared, ignorance is bliss right? But for those that have heard, they have been told and now have a choice to make. It sucks, I agree with everyone of ya. But God is still right. He is still Just and Holy and Rightous. He can not have sin come before Him. Period.

Blaming the devil for human psychology is the act of someone who has no idea what he's talking about. And who has no desire to actually find out, which is far worse.

actually it is a spiritual thing and I'm sure you don't understand.

1 John 7: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

These verses shows that the Christian God is defined by love. Because God himself is infinite, anything that defines him must by necessity be infinite as well. You are wrong.

... But that's no fun. Let's logic this sucker. *grins and rubs his hands together*

Okay, Traveler, let me explain why God doesn't have to be infinitely loving. He only has to be loving, period.

God is, according to you, omnipotent. Correct? This means he has infinite powers. Correct?

Now, can we also agree that, if God is omnipotent, there can be no other omnipotent being or force, correct? Otherwise, God and this other force might meet, at which point we would have a unstoppable force/immovable object paradox. And because no other creature can be omnipotent, they cannot have infinite powers. Therefore, they must have finite powers, meaning it would take God a finite amount of power to destroy, imprison or change them. Correct?

Now. What is a finite number - any finite number - divided by infinity?

The answer - it is infinitesimal. Therefore, it would take God an infinitesimal amount of his power to destroy, imprison or change anything, correct?

Now, here's the tricky part. Assume for a second that God, like us, measures worth of effort by what can be gained. If God wants to protect us, it is because he loves us. So, in order to expend an infinitesimal amount of power on our behalf, he must have at least an infinitesimal amount of love for us. Correct?

And it's impossible to get a value smaller than infinitesimal without hitting zero. Correct?

So, if God loves us - even to such a small degree that we cannot comprehend how little he loves us - he would expend the energy to save us. Because the energy it would take is such a trifling to him, it does not even exist as an actual fraction.

Please feel free to point out flaws in my logic. But also, please don't dismiss this out of hand. I'd really like you to think about this.

Interesting PF, this is a good point, however, it is ONLY human logic and pales in comparison to GOD's logic.

Augustine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo), in his City of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God), argued that God could not do anything that would make God non-omnipotent:

For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.V.10.html
Thus Augustine argued that God could not do anything or create any situation that would in effect make God not God. I agree with the love thing, for the most part.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 21st, 2007, 12:27 AM

It is black and white, and it is that simple. No other religions have a redeemer that is still alive and sitting on the right hand side of GOD in the throneroom. It is Scriptural, the only way to the Father is through the Son. No other religions can get you there. It is impossible.

Through God, all things are possible. Don't presume to limit him.

It sucks, but that is the way GOD has it set up.

I don't understand this at all. You were just talking about how it's a GOOD thing to question God, but when it comes to eternal torture of 67% of the planet, you shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, guess he knows best. Oh well."

Is there a reason - an actual, solid, understandable reason - why this decision is so arbitrary? Nothing anyone has put forward has made any sense to me. (And no, it's not because I'm an idiot, or spiritually dead. Pick another reply.

actually it is a spiritual thing and I'm sure you don't understand.

Wrong. Very, very wrong.

God has created a world of logic. And according to the texts, he is a God of love. Why would he defy both of those edicts to give control to beings who are endlessly malevolent, and which cannot be logically perceived? It doesn't make any sense.

Spirituality is the art of connection. Connection to God, connection to fellow man, connection to the world. To use spirituality as an excuse to ignore someone's arguments - deciding, rather than listen to him, to accuse him of being manipulated by dark spirits, merely because he doesn't agree with you - is so self-contradictory as to be mind-boggling.

And you support this because it makes you superior. Here's a hypothetical you'll ignore: what if you died, and you found out that Buddhists are the only ones destined for heaven, and the rest of us are tortured forever? Would you accept that as the design of God?

Your lack of empathy is horrifying. Jesus said, love your neighbor. Consigning us to Hell, is that love?

Interesting PF, this is a good point, however, it is ONLY human logic and pales in comparison to GOD's logic.

... Headache. God.

God has placed us in a world of logic, where cause and effect rules. Am I supposed to ignore that? If this life has any meaning, the very basis for this world cannot be totally useless. According to your argument, it is.

Edit: I also had to point this out.

I think that if they have never heard of Yeshua that they may be spared, ignorance is bliss right?

He can not have sin come before Him. Period.

You realize you're contradicting yourself here, right? If God can't abide sin (again... can't?), and Christians are the only ones who are not sinful, then God can't abide non-Christians, whether they're aware of their sin or not. You can't have it both ways.

Unless you're implying that non-Christians are only sinful once they've heard of Christianity and rejected it. In which case, why send Jesus at all? That's just dooming people to Hell.

nrj

Jun 21st, 2007, 12:30 AM

You don't have a choice about existing until you exist now that you exist you can choose to stop exisisting at any point in time... But, wouldn't that be suicide, wich would take me to hell as well?

That does not mean that he is in any way interfering in what we are doing, we are still the ones doing it, he is simply in the position to have observed everything that we have done through out our entire lives. After all if we did not have the free will to start with then we could not be held accountable for our actions could we. That's exactly what I'm talking about! Let's take me as an example: god knew, from the second he created my great-great-great-great-grandmother that her grand-grand-grand-grand-son would reject him. So, in effect, he knew I would be tortured in hell for all eternity, and he could've steered this off by simply not having me born. But, instead, I had no say about it, so basically I have to submit to a belief I don't want to belong to or be tortured forever. If christianity's right, that is.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 21st, 2007, 3:26 AM

Be careful PF, once you back eyelids into a corner concerning logic or her inability to read the opening post she will somply start ignoring you....

and can one of the mods condence her mulitple consequtive posts into one? I hate seeing the count jump up ten posts only to find that my excitement that the conversation is fast progressing is misplaced because some A-hole thinks I like to see ten posts consisting of 3-4 words rather than 1 post with 25.

Cherisa

Jun 21st, 2007, 7:59 AM

Your logic here is so black and white. Why can't someone not follow Christ (ie, follow a different religion) and be a good person? Just because you aren't Christian doesn't make you a follower of Satan.

Technically they can,in God's world as long as they don't sin, sins are the 10 commandments.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 21st, 2007, 2:34 PM

and can one of the mods condence her mulitple consequtive posts into one?

Done and done. First time I've moderated something since I've been back.

But, yeah, allseeingeye? Try not to make so many posts in a row - you can go back and edit your previous post rather than adding several new ones. It clutters the hell out of the forum.

Cherisa

Jun 21st, 2007, 7:29 PM

But, wouldn't that be suicide, wich would take me to hell as well?

.
yes, suicide.. But that is technically when your choice began, before that it was someone else's choice. You mama yo daddy

allseeingeye

Jun 24th, 2007, 8:46 PM

Technically they can,in God's world as long as they don't sin, sins are the 10 commandments.

This is so hard to do though. Noone, and I do mean noone, but Yeshua could pull this one off.

as said by P.F.:

Through God, all things are possible. Don't presume to limit him.

I'm not limiting him, in any way shape or form. It is those with religion (or that think they are all that) that limit GOD. I have a relationship with Him. I stand humbled before the Son of Man.

I don't understand this at all. You were just talking about how it's a GOOD thing to question God, but when it comes to eternal torture of 67% of the planet, you shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, guess he knows best. Oh well."

Is there a reason - an actual, solid, understandable reason - why this decision is so arbitrary? Nothing anyone has put forward has made any sense to me. (And no, it's not because I'm an idiot, or spiritually dead. Pick another reply.

Well, I have asked him about this, never heard anything back. So I dunno, tell ya what P.F., why don't you humble yourself before the Lord and ask Him yourself. I don'y have an answer for why 67% of the planet will be sent to the lake of fire.

Wrong. Very, very wrong.

God has created a world of logic. And according to the texts, he is a God of love. Why would he defy both of those edicts to give control to beings who are endlessly malevolent, and which cannot be logically perceived? It doesn't make any sense. (It does not hafta make sense, it is GOD. His ways are not our ways. He thinks on a much higher scale than we could even fathom. He makes the smartest man on planet earth look like a labotomized cadaver.)

Spirituality is the art of connection. Connection to God, connection to fellow man, connection to the world. To use spirituality as an excuse to ignore someone's arguments - deciding, rather than listen to him, to accuse him of being manipulated by dark spirits, merely because he doesn't agree with you - is so self-contradictory as to be mind-boggling.(ok, I see what you are saying, ever stop to think that there may be a difference between each individuals spirit though. I have a spirit in me that is profoundly different from the spirit that is in you. If a spirit is not from GOD, being the Holy Spirit, then it is a spirit of the world. That spirit is from the ruler of this world, which, is not GOD's spirit.)

And you support this because it makes you superior.( I certainly do not think that, I am nothing without Yeshua) Here's a hypothetical you'll ignore: what if you died, and you found out that Buddhists are the only ones destined for heaven, and the rest of us are tortured forever? Would you accept that as the design of God? (I would, but, I know for a fact that they do not have it right. Our faith is based on the finished work of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord Yeshua. The Buddist think that if you act right and think right you can work your way into heaven. If we could work our way into heaven, then we would not have needed Christ at all.)

Your lack of empathy is horrifying. Jesus said, love your neighbor. Consigning us to Hell, is that love?
(Whoa bub, I never said anything about consigning any to anywhere. You have made your choice, not me. You must suffer the consequences, not me. I am merely trying to tell ya what I have learned to spare your soul from the lake of fire. It is up to you now what you do with it, not me. Curious, what would my lack of being able to understand your emotions be horrifying to you? Am I supposed to put myself in your shoes to feel what it is that you are feeling because you don't believe in the Salvation Message of Yeshua?) Just curious.

God has placed us in a world of logic, where cause and effect rules. Am I supposed to ignore that?(NO!) If this life has any meaning, the very basis for this world cannot be totally useless. According to your argument, it is. (Yeah, never said anything to that effect. All I said was that your puny logic is but a speck before GOD. Mine is even worse. I don't know what you think I am trying to do here, but I can assure you it is not malicious any in way. Stop reading more into what I am saying. Your putting words into my mouth and twisting my words into your meaning.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allseeingeye
I think that if they have never heard of Yeshua that they may be spared, ignorance is bliss right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allseeingeye
He can not have sin come before Him. Period.

You realize you're contradicting yourself here, right? If God can't abide sin (again... can't?), and Christians are the only ones who are not sinful,(wow, you really are ignorant huh? first off, EVERYONE is sinful, just because I am a Christian does not mean I don't sin or any other Christians for that matter. What we have is Yeshua next to us telling GOD that He bore those sins for us and GOD does not recognize them.) then God can't abide non-Christians, whether they're aware of their sin or not. You can't have it both ways. (Indeed you can't, I was throwing that out there to ruffle your feathers, worked like a charm too. Love ya man. :naughtyy: It says that everyone will have heard about Christ and have made a choice before He comes back to Judge the wicked. EVERYONE! Noone will be left out. )

Unless you're implying that non-Christians are only sinful once they've heard of Christianity and rejected it. In which case, why send Jesus at all? That's just dooming people to Hell (ok, again, people doom themselves to Hell by not doing something so simple as believing that they are sinners and need a Saviour, which GOD was loving enough to provide, then inviting Him into your heart so that it can be changed. It's not "Christianity" that they are rejecting, it is Yeshua that is rejected. Christianity is just a label. It describes a belief system.

As said by DBA:

Be careful PF, once you back eyelids into a corner concerning logic or her inability to read the opening post she will somply start ignoring you....

Wow dude, what is your deal, you got a beef with me man. Shut your pie hole if you got nothing nice to say, didn't your momma teach you any manners. He has logic, your just ignorant. If you don't have anything usefull to add to the post, hush down.

and can one of the mods condence her mulitple consequtive posts into one? I was merely following a complaint from another post saying to not make em so flipping long, sorry to have invaded your precious count DBA. Got any other complaints? :vbroll:

But, yeah, allseeingeye? Try not to make so many posts in a row - you can go back and edit your previous post rather than adding several new ones. It clutters the hell out of the forum.June 21st, 2007 6:59 AM

You bet and sorry, didn't realize it was a major deal to do that. My bad. :wink:

Sammy56

Jun 24th, 2007, 9:08 PM

I don'y have an answer for why 67% of the planet will be sent to the lake of fire. I do. It's because the "God" you worship is cruel and unethical. No moral God would throw his own living creation into everlasting torment. I couldn't do that to my worst enemy, let alone someone I love. That makes me more moral than your "God".

allseeingeye

Jun 24th, 2007, 9:49 PM

I do. It's because the "God" you worship is cruel and unethical. No moral God would throw his own living creation into everlasting torment. I couldn't do that to my worst enemy, let alone someone I love. That makes me more moral than your "God".

Obviosly, you have all the answers. Please, tell me more oh great Sammy. Why don't you humble yourself before GOD and ask Him yourself. My GOD is........... ya know, I will not defend Him, I don't need to. Lemme ask all ya'll this. If He doesn't exist or whatever it is that you think, then why spend so much time trying to DISPROVE Him?? Surely it does not matter if He isn't real or is such a mean GOD. Why go there? What is it yopu worship Sammy. Surely you have something that you Idolize and pay omage too. Drugs, ciggarettes, your job?? What?

Besides, we don't know for a fact that it is everlasting torment do we? Traveler seems to think something that I have never heard of before. It will need to backed up with some scripture though before I buy it, but it is worrth looking into.

I love all the responses I got from this.. talk about dodging a truth!

Augustine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo), in his City of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God), argued that God could not do anything that would make God non-omnipotent:
For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.V.10.htmlThus Augustine argued that God could not do anything or create any situation that would in effect make God not God.

Makes sense, no?

Cartesiantheater

Jun 24th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Obviosly, you have all the answers. Please, tell me more oh great Sammy. Why don't you humble yourself before GOD and ask Him yourself.

Well, let's see. For starters YOUR God didn't even love YOU enough to answer YOU when YOU asked it...

My GOD is........... ya know, I will not defend Him, I don't need to.

More like you CAN'T.

Lemme ask all ya'll this. If He doesn't exist or whatever it is that you think, then why spend so much time trying to DISPROVE Him?? Surely it does not matter if He isn't real or is such a mean GOD.

Because often times you people (EDIT- "you people" = fundementalist conservative brainwashed Christians)are mean, judgemental, and treat your children who see through the lies like shit. Also, you brainwash little kids at a young age and deprive them of the knowledge of our scientific frontiers because it conflicts with your fundementalist doctrine. Also, you ridicule gay people, or go around with your propaganda saying "it IS a choice- they are just sexual divients" etc because you are bigots.

But want to know the GREATEST reason many of us want to "disprove" your God? Because YOUR God makes the REAL God look like crap (if he does exist). Your God INSULTS both the hypothetical creator AND human beings.

Why go there? What is it yopu worship Sammy. Surely you have something that you Idolize and pay omage too. Drugs, ciggarettes, your job?? What?

(Sorry to speak for you Sammy)

Sammy admires the beauty of creation in the cosmos, and thinks highly of the REAL God that might have designed them. She is unsure of his/her/its existence, but she KNOWS that the REAL God is not a homocidal maniac/masochist (i.e., YOUR God)

Besides, we don't know for a fact that it is everlasting torment do we? Traveler seems to think something that I have never heard of before. It will need to backed up with some scripture though before I buy it, but it is worrth looking into.

That would be the only redemption for your God.

I love all the responses I got from this.. talk about dodging a truth!

Yes, I know. You keep dodging the logical conclusion one must draw about God if he indeed DOES send people to hell for all eternity. You bury your head in the sand... you close your "all seeing eye" to the truth.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 24th, 2007, 10:48 PM

Wow dude, what is your deal, you got a beef with me man. Shut your pie hole if you got nothing nice to say, didn't your momma teach you any manners. He has logic, your just ignorant. If you don't have anything usefull to add to the post, hush down.My Beef? you lie about questioning your god.

You dont understand that freewill and a mechanism which can predict the future with 100% accuracy cannot coexist.

You assume that sinse I dont believe in your imagined god that I am an evil person and deserve to spend forever in hell. At the same time you simply shrug off your imagnined gods infinite evil when sending a person to hell.

I have a beef with the level of FEAR you show for a god that is said to be infinitely loving. You are so afraid of your god that you dare not even consider that hell is beyond the evil that a human can concieve.

I have a beef with your inability to understand that your humbleness before an infinite entity is entirely meaningless!

I do not sit about thinking of ways to disprove your god; you disprove it yourself with the very definition you give it. At most it can be said that I think of ways to show you that your definition is contradictory not only to this real universe but also in any hypothetical universe which could come into existance. I know that last sentence is over your head but I dont have time to explain why 2+2=4....

Should an everlasting loving god which manages to exist from moment to moment be the reality, Im sure it will forgive you for your fear.

Sammy56

Jun 24th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Obviosly, you have all the answers. I never claimed that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

. If He doesn't exist or whatever it is that you think, then why spend so much time trying to DISPROVE Him??Just because I am not Christian does not make you an atheist. I am not trying to disprove God. I lean towards theism. But I don't believe in your evil god who will throw a good person into hell by not being raised in the right religion.

Surely you have something that you Idolize and pay omage too. Drugs, ciggarettes, your job?? What? I find your comment offensive. I have never touched drugs or cigarettes in my life, but that matters not in this argument. Your holier than thou attitude ruins your credibility. You think you are better than me because of your faith. You hold your religion/faith, which worships a cruel God, important. Fine, that's your choice. But I hold my loved ones important and dedicate my life to making their lives better, not preaching hate and damnation.

Sammy admires the beauty of creation in the cosmos, and thinks highly of the REAL God that might have designed them. She is unsure of his/her/its existence, but she KNOWS that the REAL God is not a homocidal maniac/masochist (i.e., YOUR God)
Thank you CT. You are completely correct, although I doubt allseeingeye cares enough to read anything we write.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 25th, 2007, 1:00 AM

I'm not limiting him, in any way shape or form.

Saying that there's only one way for us to get to God implies there's only one way for him to reach us. Which is crap.

So I dunno, tell ya what P.F., why don't you humble yourself before the Lord and ask Him yourself.

I did.

I asked God, when I was asking these questions of myself for the first time, to put me at ease with the fact that two-thirds of the people on Earth would suffer forever if what I believed was true. He responded that I could never be at ease with such a fact, because to be so unconcerned with what happened to others would make me a sociopath at best.

That's why I left the church at fifteen, FYI.

I don'y have an answer for why 67% of the planet will be sent to the lake of fire.

Then why have you stopped asking? Are you honestly content to believe this? I don't understand how anyone could not have a problem with this.

It does not hafta make sense, it is GOD.

And God is unable to reason?

He thinks on a much higher scale than we could even fathom. He makes the smartest man on planet earth look like a labotomized cadaver.

I'm not arguing against that. Obviously it's true. But facts don't change when we get smarter.

Why do you think I used math terms here? Because honest math is inarguably true. Infinity is to finite numbers as finite numbers are to infinitesimal numbers. This is inarguable fact. That doesn't change when you get smarter, no matter how lofty your intelligence.

If a spirit is not from GOD, being the Holy Spirit, then it is a spirit of the world.

But God is the creator of all. So isn't every spirit of God?

I certainly do not think that, I am nothing without Yeshua

That's irrelevant, since even if you think you are nothing without Yeshua, you also think I am nothing without Yeshua. But you think you are more blessed than I am, which is my point.

Whoa bub, I never said anything about consigning any to anywhere. You have made your choice, not me.

But you have no ethical problem with my burning in hell, if I don't make the choice you think I should make. Right? So still, no love.

Yeah, never said anything to that effect. All I said was that your puny logic is but a speck before GOD.

Again - higher aptitude in logic doesn't change the actual facts that logic is based on. 2+2=4, and that doesn't change no matter how intelligent you are.

I'm not nearly as logical as God, no. But I have pointed out a contradiction in the logic of the God you believe in, a paradox.

God can extend logic beyond the point I can. But he's still part of that logic. So an actual paradox is still something that can't exist, unless you can explain why it isn't a paradox. And you can't.

ok, again, people doom themselves to Hell by not doing something so simple as believing that they are sinners and need a Saviour, which GOD was loving enough to provide, then inviting Him into your heart so that it can be changed.

Hmm...

Believing I am a sinner: Yup, I know I'm flawed. All set.

Need a savior: For what, exactly? To escape Hell? Why is Hell there in the first place?

This isn't logic. I've got no reason to believe Yeshua is a savior, except "People tell me," and people tell me a lot of stuff. So God is damning me to Hell because I'm not making the right random decision. Your God is still a prick.

Edit: And, of course...

Makes sense, no?

What makes sense? The idea that, if God were to confront sin, he'd no longer be God? No, that doesn't make a lick of sense, sorry.

allseeingeye

Jun 25th, 2007, 11:49 PM

ok, at this point I see the futility in even going on, My holier than thou attitude and cruel GOD are gonna stop arguing with whatever it is that you think, cause I don't really care. I was foolish for even thinking I can make a difference. I am but one voice trying to do something for GOD and as usuall have screwed it up. DBA you just an ass. Everyone else I am kewl with, altho I beleive ya'll hate me with every fiber of your being because I am a Christian. Fine, whatever. Ok, maybe not because I am Christian, but because I believe in a cruel and immoral GOD. Like I dsaid before, believe what you want, I was just trying to share with ya my opinion and all ya can do is tear me down for it, but everyone is entitled to there opinions, right?

Cherisa nailed it when she talked about word salad. I shoulda stopped wile I was ahead. But I am a glutton for punishment. Believe me, I was not trying to offend anyone (sorry Sammy) just trying to articulate my point, which evidently I am not very good at. I wish I would have been better educated and knew more about my GOD, He isn't as bad as ya'll think. So hopefully no hard feelings and please accept my humble apologies. Accept you DBA, you can die for all I care. (yeah yeah, I know not very christian, blah blah blah) He was just plain mean and deserves his fate. Prick! (now you have a reason for a beef against me) See ya in hell!

DontBeAfraid

Jun 25th, 2007, 11:57 PM

Accept you DBA, you can die for all I care. (yeah yeah, I know not very christian, blah blah blah) He was just plain mean and deserves his fate. Prick! (now you have a reason for a beef against me) See ya in hell!wow.... I cant stop smiling....

I know not very christianIncorrect sir; Your sentiment towards me is very very christian. But not at all christ like. And the difference therein is why not many take a shining to your religion.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 26th, 2007, 12:52 AM

Everyone else I am kewl with, altho I beleive ya'll hate me with every fiber of your being because I am a Christian. Fine, whatever. Ok, maybe not because I am Christian, but because I believe in a cruel and immoral GOD.

I doubt anyone here hates you. Even DBA is pretty equal-opportunity with his derision. I don't agree with your stance, and feel you haven't really thought it through, but it's nothing personal. I just don't agree.

... I am kind of wondering where Traveler got off to, though.

Sammy56

Jun 26th, 2007, 12:53 AM

Believe me, I was not trying to offend anyone (sorry Sammy) just trying to articulate my point, which evidently I am not very good at.Apology accepted. Just, in the future, please don't assume that because someone doesn't have religion, the drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. I know I'm 17 and that stuff is associated with people my age, but I'm not your typical teenager. Sorry, stereotypes feed my temper. I shouldn't have snapped at you, and I'm sorry as well.

allseeingeye

Jun 26th, 2007, 1:49 AM

wow.... I cant stop smiling....

Incorrect sir; Your sentiment towards me is very very christian. But not at all christ like. And the difference therein is why not many take a shining to your religion.

Arrogant ( is an adjective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective) that may refer to having excessive pride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride) in oneself. A person who is arrogant may exaggerate their own worth or importance in an overbearing manner.)

This describes you perfectly. it is undeniable at this point. I am almost sad that it has to be this way, your arrogance will be your downfall. You should wipe that smile off your face, cause in the end you will not be smiling, sorry bout your luck. I hope you never take a shining to any religion accept your self worship, which is also known as Luciferian.:bondage:
Modern Luciferianism

Modern Luciferianism and Modern Satanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Satanism) share many primary aspects. In both, practitioners self-identify with a super-personal essence that they view as embodying desirable characteristics. Both work towards employing these characteristics as a means of bettering the Self. However, these two groups differ in that Modern Satanists, particularly younger ones, are believed to actively engage in the sinister or diabolical aspects traditionally associated with the biblical Satan due to criticism received by people who do not know a great deal about Satanism. It is therefore incorrect that crimes, such as child kidnapping, human sacrifices, vandalism, and so forth, are committed by true Satanists. Contrary to popular belief, many Luciferians and Satanists alike do not worship the devil, but rather worship nothing except the divinity within themselves.

from what i gathered from your smug postings, this describes you to a tee, am I wrong?

Psalm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm) 10 verse 4:
`In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.` this is you as well. You can read more about your type of pride by cliking the word pride in the definition of your arrogance. just FYI
Apology accepted. Just, in the future, please don't assume that because someone doesn't have religion, the drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. I know I'm 17 and that stuff is associated with people my age, but I'm not your typical teenager. Sorry, stereotypes feed my temper. I shouldn't have snapped at you, and I'm sorry as well.

Sorry that you misunderstood me on that drinking and drug thing, I was just trying to find out what it is that you worshipped. For me it was work. It is known as idolatry. Anything can become an Idol. we are born with the instinct to worship something, Be it God or smokes or sports......see what i am asking now? the point was to see what it was you idolized. i wasn't saying you did those things. I seem to be way misunderstood here, at best, and definately religious, which I am not. I am not very good at putting my thoughts down in a post, i know what i want to say, I just can't sem to say it right, then ya get what i got going with DBA. He obviously has no clue where i am coming from.

P.S. I seperated these because I felt it necassary. The thing with DBA is a completely seperate issue, and needed to be seperate from the convo with Sammy.

As said by P.F.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allseeingeye
Everyone else I am kewl with, altho I beleive ya'll hate me with every fiber of your being because I am a Christian. Fine, whatever. Ok, maybe not because I am Christian, but because I believe in a cruel and immoral GOD.

I doubt anyone here hates you. Even DBA is pretty equal-opportunity with his derision. I don't agree with your stance, and feel you haven't really thought it through, but it's nothing personal. I just don't agree.

... I am kind of wondering where Traveler got off to, though.

And that is what makes america great, we can disagree. But we also need to agree to diagree right? Which I believe is what we have just done.......so...... yes. good then.

jeffweeder

Jun 26th, 2007, 2:17 AM

Quote:
Accept you DBA, you can die for all I care. (yeah yeah, I know not very christian, blah blah blah) He was just plain mean and deserves his fate. Prick! (now you have a reason for a beef against me) See ya in hell!

wow.... I cant stop smiling....

Quote:
I know not very christian

Incorrect sir; Your sentiment towards me is very very christian. But not at all christ like. And the difference therein is why not many take a shining to your religion.

ah DBA, You can be right sometimes---Christians are not Christ, and the possibility that Christians dont preach Christianity is not to be underestimated.

So what are you saying then?
Christ wouldnt squish you into the ground, like some Christians do...me being guilty myself of Christless rhetoric toward you.

Your right, so why make him out to be a monster who would find nothing more pleasurable than to throw your butt into hell.?

You just said yourself what kind of attitude Christ would have toward you.-one of tolerance.

Maybe we should just trust his Judgement a little more?

After all he supposedly went to hell for all when he didnt have to.
I mean those nails are long and thick. One rose thorn in my little finger is enough for me to avoid the bush.

He knew all about what was to happen to him, so the all powerful God did what he had to do, not 4 himself but for us who had died and found ourselves in a foriegn realm called death.
God certainly could have messed with laws surely, so why didnt he?
Death is a reality and the only way to overcome it was to be in it illegally.

If hell has to exist, then he went there first,,what kind of monster would do that?

Hell was a place prepared for Spiritual corrupting evil spirits, those that did not want to love , those that consider themselves better than anyone else.
Some people decide that they dont want to play ball / fair, and sfuck up society.

What ya going to do with such free willed beings?
I say send the barstads to siberia, away from the just society that we all crave.

It is done. We will live without them and there will be a golden future and justice will prevail.

cool huh, we gonna have peace-real peace.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 26th, 2007, 3:13 AM

Your right, so why make him out to be a monster who would find nothing more pleasurable than to throw your butt into hell.?I am not the one that makes your god out to be a monster Raptor. I have never advocated any belief in any hell raptor, did you miss that? If there is a god, I would find it hard to believe that it has much interest in torturing me forever.

This describes you perfectly. it is undeniable at this point. It describes us both. You for thinking you are immeasurable to me and damning me to hell; and me for knowing you are wrong. The difference is that I choose my words much more carefully in an attempt to better convey my thoughts to you.

from what i gathered from your smug postings, this describes you to a tee, am I wrong?Am I a satanist? not that Im aware of. Do I worship myself as a god? If I ever develope supernatural ability I might.... but until then, I feel human enough. Am I prideful or proud? Yes, in many respect. I take pride in many things, including my ability to communicate.

Also in my ability to recognize patterns. Would you like me to make you aware of a pattern we are both a part of right now? Well, like it or not:

Christian expresses disbelief in non christians lack of belief.
Christian asks for clarification of lack of belief
Non chistian lays out very clearly why non christian holds such a stance
Christian does not accept answer and instead decides that the non christian is only pretending because non christian would like only to continue being evil.

The last part of the pattern is the easiest one to predict. Not because it has any truth in it but because a very big part of your indoctrination is to close your eyes and ears and change your thoughts should they ever begin to question any of your dogmas foundations. Indeed, any questioning of your foundations, as percieved by you, is an attempt by satan to influence your soul.

Psalm 10 verse 4:
`In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.` Odd that your ever loving god would only have you if you are ashamed of yourself. I try not to define myself based on shame, though it IS human to regret.

P.S. I seperated these because I felt it necassary. It was a good call. Your posts are a good length.

If hell has to exist, then he went there first,,what kind of monster would do that?But this is not true according to your scripture. Your jesus could not have released any souls from hell if he was the first. btw, he was also not the first to die from crucifiction on a cross.

After all he supposedly went to hell for all when he didnt have to.Again we run into trouble with the meaning of the word omnipotent.

I doubt anyone here hates you. Even DBA is pretty equal-opportunity with his derision. I don't agree with your stance, and feel you haven't really thought it through, but it's nothing personal. I just don't agree.I argue with all sillyness eye, not just yours. Where pf and I differ though is that I am greatly disappointed with your lack of thouroghly examining your position while pf can shrug it off.

Its sad that your indoctrination was to such a degree that you have already labelled me an agent of satan for nudging you towards questions that should bother a generally good person; but that is where we are at.

jeffweeder

Jun 26th, 2007, 3:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jw
Your right, so why make him out to be a monster who would find nothing more pleasurable than to throw your butt into hell.?

I am not the one that makes your god out to be a monster Raptor. I have never advocated any belief in any hell raptor, did you miss that? If there is a god, I would find it hard to believe that it has much interest in torturing me forever.

Thats all well and good, but dont blame raptor for what i said

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW
If hell has to exist, then he went there first,,what kind of monster would do that?

But this is not true according to your scripture. Your jesus could not have released any souls from hell if he was the first. btw, he was also not the first to die from crucifiction on a cross.

This is according to what was written.

it was more about who died ...not how

As i see it written, this messiah was to come and be killed, but he never committed anything that warranted anything close to deserving death..Wasnt even in his jeans....genes like it is with everyone else.

The virgin birth may make some sense now as to how death couldnt hold him.

Truely a master plan that only God could bring to pass.
So when he died, there was no offense committed ,nothing in the genes that could make the guilty verdict stick.

ONLY one thing that can happen now--ressurection from the dead, control over death itself.

Look he is addressing you personally DBA;

REV 1

"Dont be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

allseeingeye

Jun 26th, 2007, 3:58 AM

I am not the one that makes your god out to be a monster Raptor. I have never advocated any belief in any hell raptor, did you miss that? If there is a god, I would find it hard to believe that it has much interest in torturing me forever.

It describes us both. You for thinking you are immeasurable to me and damning me to hell; Never did I damn anyone to hell, especially you, I don't think they would have ya, your too damn stubborn.and me for knowing you are wrong.How do you know I am wrong?The difference is that I choose my words much more carefully in an attempt to better convey my thoughts to you. Mad props to you, I am working on doing that better.
Am I a satanist?Again, do you actually read the post DBA, it says they are common in many ways but are different. not that Im aware of. Do I worship myself as a god? If I ever develope supernatural ability I might.... but until then, I feel human enough. Again, not saying your not human, just that you are into self worship. Am I prideful or proud? Yes, in many respect. I take pride in many things, including my ability to communicate. As do I ,altho working on the communication part. i have pride in alotta the things I do, butthere is a difference between pride in your work and being prideful and arrogant.

Also in my ability to recognize patterns. Would you like me to make you aware of a pattern we are both a part of right now? Well, like it or not:

Christian expresses disbelief in non christians lack of belief. More curiosity
Christian asks for clarification of lack of belief agreed
Non chistian lays out very clearly why non christian holds such a stance clearly, only in your eyes, and maybe in the eyes of others, not to me.
Christian does not accept answer and instead decides that the non christian is only pretending because non christian would like only to continue being evil. this is absurd. I accept whatever you want to believe, it is you that is bashing me for my belief in saying my god is this or that, at what point, ever in my posts did I attack your beliefs. You are dead wrong here old guy, plain and simple.

The last part of the pattern is the easiest one to predict. Not because it has any truth in it but because a very big part of your indoctrination What indoctrination are you speaking of here? that i believe in a loving God that wants my soul to goto heaven?is to close your eyes and ears and change your thoughts should they ever begin to question any of your dogmas that is a catholic thing, which I am not. foundations. Indeed, any questioning of your foundations, as percieved by you, is an attempt by satan to influence your soul. also BS, you can question my foundations all ya want, i have no problem with that, and i don't give satan that much credit.

Odd that your ever loving god would only have you if you are ashamed of yourself. I try not to define myself based on shame, though it IS human to regret. Odd that you would associate that scripture with shame. I don't define myself on shame, I define myself on who I Am in Yeshua.

It was a good call. Your posts are a good length. Yeah, we agreed on something.

But this is not true according to your scripture. Your jesus could not have released any souls from hell if he was the first. btw, he was also not the first to die from crucifiction on a cross.

Again we run into trouble with the meaning of the word omnipotent.

I argue with all sillyness eye, not just yours. Where pf and I differ though is that I am greatly disappointed with your lack of thouroghly examining your position while pf can shrug it off.

Its sad that your indoctrination was to such a degree that you have already labelled me an agent of satan for nudging you towards questions that should bother a generally good person; but that is where we are at. wow dude, you got some kinda thi9ng with indoctrination huh? I never said anything about you being an agent of satan, why are you so threatened by me and my beliefs? Are you saying i am not a good person? You are a real peice of work DBA. And yet you fascinate me with your way of thinking.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 26th, 2007, 4:25 AM

why are you so threatened by me and my beliefs?Threatened by your belief? Well, havent you already said that the answer to this is that Im afraid that I will have to give up being evil? You have. Though I know it will not be accepted I will tell you that I am not afraid of your religion.

Are you saying i am not a good person? You are a real peice of work DBA. People who cassually dismiss or even condone an existance of hell are bad people.

And yet you fascinate me with your way of thinking.Step out of the dark.

edit: yes sorry about calling you raptor jeff, that was not intended.

jeffweeder

Jun 26th, 2007, 4:40 AM

edit: yes sorry about calling you raptor jeff, that was not intended.

Doesnt matter, although raptor himself might be horrified at the thought.
Now what about the rest of what i was trying to convey...........any thoughts about this God being nailed down for all those unfortuanates in hell?
Even if you hate the thought of hell....like me... this is certainly a spanner in the works of God wanting people to be in hell.
Doesnt make sense that he does now, but the place cant cease to be a reality due to the energies that exist..........And bad energy does exist dont it.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 26th, 2007, 5:04 AM

An omnipotent god does not need a hell. A loving omnipotent god would not have one.. At this point you must either reavaluate the existence of hell or reavaluate how you define god.

If you remove omnipotents from your gods definition then it makes sense to entertain your entire idea of it needing to sacrifice itself to redeem us. Until you do that though the conversation will remain silly as there are obviously BETTER ways if given unlimited power.

jeffweeder

Jun 26th, 2007, 6:52 AM

Christianity defines itself in this way.
God was murdered by men who thought they were serving God.
But all they were doing was spewing religous rhetoric.

God may be all powerful, but its against the rules for God to come barging in and get people to make the right choice.

Its a two way street this love thing.

We must take hold and partake of it for it to be real and meaningful.
This is what God wants.--your wife or husband wants the same thing.--your heart.

wouldnt you prefer that your spouse willingly gave his/her heart to you?
Or would you prefer God used his omni powers to make the choice for her/him ?

Cuts like a knife doesnt it

Its only going to mean the world to you, be special ,if people do it with their own volition. Any thought of God manipulating it to be so seems absolutely meaningless to me.

Cherisa

Jun 26th, 2007, 7:19 PM

I find it hysterical, how seething and hateful you are toward christians, YET(!) you do spend most of your free time arguing with them. are you still upset that I became a mod?

To Sammy,PF, CT.. I think it was really sweet of you guys to apologize to ALL...He really hasn't been here long enough to know the personalities that go along with this forum.

All, there is an ignore button go to user profile click on ignore this user and you won't have to read anything DBA posts..

DontBeAfraid

Jun 26th, 2007, 8:18 PM

are you still upset that I became a mod?I dont remember publicly stating such but its true, I would much rather Jeff become a mod than you. He has a level head while you are extremely emotional.

I find it hysterical, how seething and hateful you are toward christians, YET(!) you do spend most of your free time arguing with them.I dont hate the christian, I hate the doctrine. Or at least I hate the parts that encompass two exclusive realities.

All, there is an ignore button go to user profile click on ignore this user and you won't have to read anything DBA posts..Your answer to me questions is to suggest I should be ignored? How christian of you..... Not that Im worried though, you are too weak to ignore me.

Cherisa

Jun 26th, 2007, 8:59 PM

I dont remember publicly stating such but its true, You threw a complete hissy fit... I'm emotional?

I dont hate the christian, I hate the doctrine. Or at least I hate the parts that encompass two exclusive realities.You hate everything Christian. tell the truth here..

Your answer to me questions is to suggest I should be ignored? How christian of you..... Not that Im worried though, you are too weak to ignore me. More word salad... I am not going to be ignoring you, I was telling All that HE could if he so choose..

There is no reason to answer any of your inqueries as that you have no real desire of any answer that comes from a christian, It only adds to your narcssistic supply

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/personality_disorders/narcissism/faq76.html

allseeingeye

Jun 26th, 2007, 9:40 PM

Threatened by your belief? Well, havent you already said that the answer to this is that Im afraid that I will have to give up being evil? You have. Though I know it will not be accepted I will tell you that I am not afraid of your religion.

People who cassually dismiss or even condone an existance of hell are bad people.

Step out of the dark.

edit: yes sorry about calling you raptor jeff, that was not intended.

Indeed, you are an interesting man DBA, your kinda growing on me actually. Will you be my friend? I have never labeled you as evil for one thing, I believe that is something that you have done. You have no reason to be afraid of my (religion?) faith. It is actually all about love. (and your rebuttle will be the whole GOD and hell thing, I got ya figured out, please spare me from having to read it again.) Hell is real, the devil is real, God gave us a choice, the ball is in your court, oh wait, it's back in mine, nope here it comes to you again........etc....etc...etc... can we just agree to disagree and be friends bub. I don't wanna argue with ya anymore. Can we call a truce, at least till I get a bug in my bonnet and wanna pose another thread?

I find it hysterical, how seething and hateful you are toward christians, YET(!) you do spend most of your free time arguing with them. are you still upset that I became a mod?

To Sammy,PF, CT.. I think it was really sweet of you guys to apologize to ALL...He really hasn't been here long enough to know the personalities that go along with this forum.

All, there is an ignore button go to user profile click on ignore this user and you won't have to read anything DBA posts..

ya I know cherisa, I seen it, however, I do not fear DBA or his hateful rhetoric, i am really interested in what he has to say, so I will pass on the ignore thing. But thanks for the heads up. :cool03:

DontBeAfraid

Jun 26th, 2007, 10:34 PM

Can we call a truce, at least till I get a bug in my bonnet and wanna pose another thread?Whenever youre ready. edit: You will neeed to start with a satisfactory explaination of hell though. One that neither limits your gods abilities or its love.... unless you want to change your definition of god.

You hate everything Christian. tell the truth here..Somewhere in my word salad you will find exactly which parts I hate. Im using a razor here, not a grenade.

There is no reason to answer any of your inqueries as that you have no real desire of any answer that comes from a christian,Actually only a christian can answer them. Thus far not a single person has given me an answer that doesnt contradict their definition of their god.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 27th, 2007, 2:59 AM

To Sammy,PF, CT.. I think it was really sweet of you guys to apologize to ALL...

Not to cause a ruckus, but I didn't apologize for anything.

Do I hate the guy? No. I don't hate anyone. But I still think that condoning torture is a disgusting, immoral stance. I don't hold it against allseeingeye personally, because it's a common enough viewpoint that I guess there must be something that draws people to it. But I'm not going to apologize for saying it's a horrible and wrong viewpoint. Know why? It's a horrible and wrong viewpoint.

And you have to understand that the reason I've been so vehement on this issue is because of what's happening in current events, and people's viewpoints on it. I'm so damn sick of people hearing about things like Guantanamo Bay, and going, "Well, they are terrorists, so what's the big deal?" (Yes, actual response I've heard to GB.) This belief - the belief that we have the right, nay, the divine right to rob people of their humanity and dignity - is abhorrent to me. And when I see a "Christian" stance like this one, one which defends that way of thinking, I tend to get a little bit, uh, fucking enraged.

Yes, I know not all Christians believe this. But enough do. Enough that we should be VERY WORRIED about what that says about us as a people.

I'm not backing down because "we need to respect other people's opinions" or any such thing. I'm backing down because allseeingeye has made it abundantly clear that he won't listen to logic, and there's not much point in me yammering on to someone who's made up his mind and won't change it. If someone else actually wants to discuss, I'll gladly step up. In the meantime, there's not much point in discussing it.

The fact of the matter is, torture is wrong. Dehumanizing people is wrong. And the belief that a benevolent God will gleefully torture people for eternity is utterly wrong. But if you want to go on believing it... well, not much I can do.

Actually only a christian can answer them. Thus far not a single person has given me an answer that doesnt contradict their definition of their god.

Meanwhile, the guy who is spouting "hateful rhetoric" ("benevolent, omnipotent God does not torture" != hateful rhetoric) seems to realize that torture and love do not really go together. And now I'm gay for DBA. Thank you and good night.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 27th, 2007, 5:49 AM

("benevolent, omnipotent God does not torture" != hateful rhetoric)!(most people know what '!=' means)

And now I'm gay for DBA.You have good taste.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 27th, 2007, 5:58 AM

!(most people know what '!=' means)

Sucks to be them.

Eh, fine. Translated: "Benevolent, omnipotent God does not torture" does not equal hateful rhetoric. Or, y'know, is not hateful rhetoric. Whatever floats your boat.

You have good taste.

Hey, nothing like a guy who will give you a swift kick in the ass when needed. Thank ya kindly.

Flynn

Jun 27th, 2007, 6:32 AM

!(most people know what '!=' means)

Actually how would most people know what ! means? In my discrete math classes we always used ~ as the NOT operator. The only reason I know what it means is because I'm a programmer, and ! is the standard NOT operator in pretty much every programming language known to man.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 27th, 2007, 6:37 AM

Actually how would most people know what ! means? In my discrete math classes we always used ~ as the NOT operator. The only reason I know what it means is because I'm a programmer, and ! is the standard NOT operator in pretty much every programming language known to man.

To be fair, I'm not a programmer. I've seen that used enough online that I figured it had become more-or-less commonly recognized. That's actually how I learned it in the first place, so...

DontBeAfraid

Jun 27th, 2007, 6:57 AM

Actually how would most people know what ! means? In my discrete math classes we always used ~ as the NOT operator. The only reason I know what it means is because I'm a programmer, and ! is the standard NOT operator in pretty much every programming language known to man.

I would think you might have noticed

!(most people know what '!=' means)

Flynn

Jun 27th, 2007, 7:26 AM

I would think you might have noticedI did notice, and I understood what you meant. I just misphrased the question. Happens a lot to me, I'm much better with bits than words.

This actually brings back a lot memories from discrete math. Such as NOTing English sentences. The NOT of "Everybody wears glasses" is actually "There is at least one person who does not wear glasses", and not "Nobody wears glasses" like most people would expect.

Although I do tend to fudge up logical operators sometimes. Just yesterday actually I put != when I meant ==. I caught it about 2 minutes later though.

(BTW == is equals, = is assignment, another common mistake is to forget the second equal sign when doing comparisons)

Cherisa

Jun 27th, 2007, 9:04 AM

And you have to understand that the reason I've been so vehement on this issue is because of what's happening in current events, and people's viewpoints on it. I'm so damn sick of people hearing about things like Guantanamo Bay, and going, "Well, they are terrorists, so what's the big deal?" (Yes, actual response I've heard to GB.) This belief - the belief that we have the right, nay, the divine right to rob people of their humanity and dignity - is abhorrent to me. And when I see a "Christian" stance like this one, one which defends that way of thinking, I tend to get a little bit, uh, fucking enraged.

I think anyone look at GB with spiritual eyes can tell GB is not a christian....can you say lucifarian? Hello? yeah , but to you those are the good guys..

OP Don't Be Afraid Actually only a christian can answer them. Thus far not a single person has given me an answer that doesnt contradict their definition of their god. God himself couldn't answer them to your satisfaction.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jun 27th, 2007, 2:25 PM

I think anyone look at GB with spiritual eyes can tell GB is not a christian

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't mean GB as George Bush there, I meant Guantanamo Bay. I thought that'd be clear from context, but of course when we're discussing politics, GB is gonna sound like George Bush. Wasn't thinking.

can you say lucifarian? Hello? yeah , but to you those are the good guys..

Please clarify - I don't understand what you're saying.

God himself couldn't answer them to your satisfaction.

... Lame.

Could we not go the, "Yer jus jellus!" route on this, please? It's an important question, one people should actually think about, not dismiss with ridiculous accusations.

allseeingeye

Jun 27th, 2007, 4:34 PM

Hey PF, I will look into the whole hell thing and see if I can come up with a resonable explanation. I could give you a couiple of analogies now, but I will wait and make sure I am totaly on the up and up first.

I do agree with you on one thing though, torture is bad, hurting people is bad. I was even asking my Wife the other day, because I agree with ya'll, about "why hell" and got no real good answer. I will ask folks at work though. Ha, kinda funny, and I'm sure DBA will get a kick outta this, I work at a church. It's non-denominational, but a church none the less. I will grill some pastors and fellow workers on this subject and get back with ya.

DBA......I do apologize for my wishing you to die and all that, I really don't have any hostile feelings towards you, you can do with that what you will, I just had to ask ya for forgiveness........that is the christian thing to do and it is sincere.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 27th, 2007, 5:10 PM

I just had to ask ya for forgiveness.....You dont need to apologize for making me laugh. Its something I like doing.

Cartesiantheater

Jun 27th, 2007, 7:17 PM

This is pure Gospel... :noevl:

Allseeingeye's/ etc's loving message from God...
Lake of Fire... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZ5rE8ujcA&mode=related&search=):D

(meatpuppets orginally)

allseeingeye

Jun 28th, 2007, 1:32 AM

This is pure Gospel... :noevl:

Allseeingeye's/ etc's loving message from God...
Lake of Fire... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZ5rE8ujcA&mode=related&search=):D
(meatpuppets orginally)

Good song, altho not very accurate. I am doing a study on this very thing right now, it is very interesting what i have learned. I will be sharing it soon. prolly in a new thread. Ready DBA?

as said by DBA

You dont need to apologize for making me laugh. Its something I like doing.

fair enough.

as said by PF:

And the belief that a benevolent God will gleefully torture people for eternity is utterly wrong.

Got me thinking about that one, come to find out he wouldn't, I'll explain this as soon as I am done studying it, kewl?

as said by DBA:

An omnipotent god does not need a hell. A loving omnipotent god would not have one.. At this point you must either reavaluate the existence of hell or reavaluate how you define god.

I cannot redefine God, So I will clear up the misconception of hell. Seems we all have our own notion of what hell is or what it's not.

You are absolutely right DBA God does not need a hell or would even have one.

I will be starting a new thread on the Hell issue.

medicvet

Jun 28th, 2007, 2:21 AM

Okay..from the Bible, let me defend my own personal belief in God as I understand God..

GOD IS LOVE.

got it.

You CAN question God..even Jacob wrestled with him and was actually rewarded. ;)

And do those of other faiths go to heaven..why it's in the book of Mathew..

(paraphesed by moi)

Many will come up at the end when they are dead and say 'hey, I went to church, I prayed, I fasted, I tithed, yada, yada, yada. Christ will say...did you feed the hungry..did you clothe the naked, did you visit the sick and imprisoned? if not..I DON'T KNOW YOU.

Many will say why are we going to heaven..we never worshiped as have been told we have to to avoid hell. Christ will say..did you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and in prison..

INSASMUCH AS YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO THE LEAST OF THESE, YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME.

and they will be welcomed..those who haven't..they will be tossed into a 'lake of fire'.

hmmm..

Now many Christians I know equate separation from God as being hell, and the lake of fire to be figurative and not literal.

Others who claim they are more 'literal' in their interpretations..I wonder how many insides of prisons they have been into to visit? Just sayin..

And I do worship GOD. I do NOT worship an eternal deity that creates a mortal creature with no true comprehension of eternity to suffer for an eternity. sorry, can't do it..my God is one of love.

I do not understand a lot of things in life..I do not understand why all this suffering of the innocent. But on good days I have enough faith..just that little 'mustard seed', so to speak, that when I die I will have my question of WHY answered, and that will be my heaven, because I will finally have a full understanding of God and will be eternally grateful for that.

www.uua.org

Oh and I was mostly raised WASP'ish by the way..predominately Lutheran, to be precise, but have a lot of experience in 'full gospel' churches.

I turned away from and hated God for a long time..especially when I had a son who was born on Christmas Day only to die less than six months later from a genetic illness..an infantile form of muscular dystrophy called Werdnig -Hoffman syndrome.

But I never felt as hollow when hating God as I did for the brief periods of time in my life when I doubted God's existence.

So I believe in God..may not have as small a definition as that of some, but that is because my definition of God has grown..not because God has grown. ;)

just sayin..