Universe is not expanding,only galaxies are expanding...

[Energy]

Theory of the Big Bang says that space has been expanding.But there is no observational proof of that.Space stands still,and it's not moving(at least that I know of).So,we have 2 choices:1.space has stopped expanding-that's why it stands still;2.our most powerful Earth's radio-telescope can "see" 14 billion light years away these,present days-and there is still no sign of the end of our universe,I mean there's no end of the space.So,is it possible that space is truly infinite-with no beginning and end,or Hubble didn't reach capacity the end of space,and thus the end of of our universe?If space is finite sooner or later we should circle the space much like on Earth.Earth is finite,but without boundaries.I personally don't think space/universe is finite,until it's proven that it's like Earth-finite,with no boundaries.ONLY GALAXIES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM US,NOT THE UNIVERSE/SPACE ITSELF.
Just because Hubble "sees" 14 billion light years away,I started to have some doubts:I started to think that space is indeed infinite,with no boundaries-correct me if I'm wrong.
What if there's a flaw in Big Bang theory-galaxies are moving away from each other,and therefore they are all expanding,but NOT space,space stands still,because it is already infinite,with no boundaries at all?Because I haven't seen a single clue that space expands at all,none of these astronomers that I know of,haven't proved that space expands-where is the observational proof that intergalactic is expanding and where is the observational proof that space outside all galaxies is expanding-is space made of dark matter-and does this dark matter prove that even space,and therefore the universe is expanding?
Any thoughts,theories,recent discoveries that support or not support these statements?
Any help is welcome,thanks!

[lazserus]

The universe is finite with no boundaries. New data compiled from observation shows that the universe is most likely in the shape much similar to a soccer ball. In theory, if one were to set out and travel along a geodesic in any given direction, that person would eventually end up where he started. Of course we haven't found the end of the universe because there are no observable boundaries to find. What we have found is the beginning of the universe. Every year we find more and more evidence SUPPORTING the big bang.

The biggest problem with an infinite universe is the vexing issue of an infinite amount of matter - that conflicts with observable data.

The thread The Universe is Finite (http://www.armageddononline.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7670#post7670) explains most of this and also includes a link that better explains everything. In case you don't want to read the thread (which is short) I've included the link as well.

http://www.space.com/scienceastrono...cer_031008.html

[Energy]

Originally posted by lazserus
The universe is finite with no boundaries. New data compiled from observation shows that the universe is most likely in the shape much similar to a soccer ball. In theory, if one were to set out and travel along a geodesic in any given direction, that person would eventually end up where he started. Of course we haven't found the end of the universe because there are no observable boundaries to find. What have found is the beginning of the universe. Every year we find more and more evidence SUPPORTING the big bang.

The biggest problem with an infinite universe is the vexing issue of an infinite amount of matter - that conflicts with observable data.

Energy:There's the problem,you don't need to have matter,space can be infinite with zillions of forms of energy.Only energy is undestroyable and uncreateable,really.


The threadThe Universe is Finite (http://www.armageddononline.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7670#post7670) explains most of this and also includes a link that better explains everything. In case you don't want to read the thread (which is short) I've included the link as well.

http://www.space.com/scienceastrono...cer_031008.html [/B]

[lazserus]

I cleaned up the post so it was a little easier to read. I almost didn't catch your response.


Energy:There's the problem,you don't need to have matter,space can be infinite with zillions of forms of energy.Only energy is undestroyable and uncreateable,really.
Matter is merely a different state of energy. Energy as well takes up space and has a density. Did you read the article?

Apparently majority of the astrophysicists out there support the big bang. If the big bang never happened then we wouldn't have the CMB, there wouldn't be a cosmic expansion and there wouldn't be black holes. Galaxies aren't expanding, the space between the galaxies is expanding. We've got observational data of this. Hubble saw this in the early 20th century and we confirmed it in 1997.

[Energy]

Originally posted by lazserus
I cleaned up the post so it was a little easier to read. I almost didn't catch your response.


Matter is merely a different state of energy. Energy as well takes up space and has a density. Did you read the article?

Energy:I agree,but both space and time are forms of energy.If you mean on the usable energy spread across the universe,that's OK.But,both space and time are forms of energy,really.I saw on some website where American goverment,secretly tries to,use the energy from space of the universe.So,space is the form of energy,as well as time.The entire universe is an form of energy.That's why the everything could have begin and have an end.

Apparently majority of the astrophysicists out there support the big bang. If the big bang never happened then we wouldn't have the CMB, there wouldn't be a cosmic expansion and there wouldn't be black holes. Galaxies aren't expanding, the space between the galaxies is expanding. We've got observational data of this. Hubble saw this in the early 20th century and we confirmed it in 1997.

Energy:I agree.But the question is does space between the galaxies and all the space we see through most powerful radio-telescopes on Earth,only matter is expanding(particles are expanding,but not the space between these particles,this is something that science needs to prove).It has never been proven,as far as I know,that space between the galaxies is expanding.And you're saying that galaxies are not expanding,but they DO expand,as well as the matter in empty space,not the space itself.Hubble only saw that galaxies are moving away from us,as well the expansion of interstellar matter,but I have never seen a single proof that space is expanding.Astronomers simply are trying explain something they have never proven,there's no sign that space is epanding,only iinside energy and matter.what they call space is interstellar matter between the galaxies that are moving away from us,but astronomers never saw IN WHAT matter,galaxies and energy are expanding-in space.

[Energy]

Originally posted by Energy
Energy:I agree.But the question is does space between the galaxies and all the space we see through most powerful radio-telescopes on Earth,only matter is expanding(particles are expanding,but not the space between these particles,this is something that science needs to prove).It has never been proven,as far as I know,that space between the galaxies is expanding.And you're saying that galaxies are not expanding,but they DO expand,as well as the matter in empty space,not the space itself.Hubble only saw that galaxies are moving away from us,as well the expansion of interstellar matter,but I have never seen a single proof that space is expanding.Astronomers simply are trying explain something they have never proven,there's no sign that space is epanding,only iinside energy and matter.what they call space is interstellar matter between the galaxies that are moving away from us,but astronomers never saw IN WHAT matter,galaxies and energy are expanding-in space.

Energy:The space between the matter is not expanding,only matter is.For example:Elementary particles which form matter,which are basically fundamental parts and builders of the known universe are expanding too,moving away from us,but the space between them stands still,it is umoveable.

[Energy]

Originally posted by Energy
Energy:The space between the matter is not expanding,only matter is.For example:Elementary particles which form matter,which are basically fundamental parts and builders of the known universe are expanding too,moving away from us,but the space between them stands still,it is umoveable.

Energy:I meant to say that space "is immoveable" and it doesn't expanding,not "umoveable"-I wrote that word wrong,so for extra safety I've corrected myself.

[lazserus]

only matter is expanding(particles are expanding,but not the space between these particles,this is something that science needs to prove).
This is not true. Matter does not expand. Unless you're using "expansion" as relative to trajectory and velocity (e.g. movement) then you're way off target. There's no such thing as expanding matter. Trying to prove that matter is in an expansive state is like trying to prove that pink leprechauns are orbiting around every human on the planet.

It has never been proven,as far as I know,that space between the galaxies is expanding.
As I said before, it has been proved. When Hubble first observed galaxy red shifts, the common belief was that celestial objects should be blue shifted from gravity. Hubble's observations supported the opposite, that the galaxies were moving away from us at a relatively high velocity. Then in 1997 we observed a supernova that was red shifted much more than it should have been, supporting it moving away from us at an accelerated speed that would suggest relativistic velocities.

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/March03/Branch/paper.pdf

The link above explains Type Ia supernovae the Hubble Constant along with the expansion of the universe.

[Hvyarms]

This is not true. Matter does not expand. Unless you're using "expansion" as relative to trajectory and velocity (e.g. movement) then you're way off target. There's no such thing as expanding matter. Trying to prove that matter is in an expansive state is like trying to prove that pink leprechauns are orbiting around every human on the planet.

Ohhhh... but they are laz.... plotting and spinning around us... every second. Those evil leprechauns and their pinkish smiles. Why must they torture us... WHY I ASK YOU WHY.

[Energy]

Originally posted by lazserus
This is not true. Matter does not expand. Unless you're using "expansion" as relative to trajectory and velocity (e.g. movement) then you're way off target. There's no such thing as expanding matter. Trying to prove that matter is in an expansive state is like trying to prove that pink leprechauns are orbiting around every human on the planet.

Energy:Sorry,but the scientists have already proved that matter does expand.Galaxies are forms of matter and they expand,the gas and the dust are expand too,and they are forms of matter and they do expand,ask and normal scientist.If matter has been expanding after the Big Bang explosion,it expands.I really don't know what are you trying to prove.Any documentary,I've seen it was said that matter and energy were expanding,after the Big Bang explosion,so the only thing today that might be is matter and energy stopped expanding,but I'm not sure if they completely stopped to expand..The space between quarks has never expanded,it has been always there,stood still.That proves that matter-if it was created in the Big Bang,has been expanding to a certain degree,it stopped increasing in space,but space itself has never been expanding or crunching.That's the basic thing,None can prove otherwise.


As I said before, it has been proved. When Hubble first observed galaxy red shifts, the common belief was that celestial objects should be blue shifted from gravity. Hubble's observations supported the opposite, that the galaxies were moving away from us at a relatively high velocity. Then in 1997 we observed a supernova that was red shifted much more than it should have been, supporting it moving away from us at an accelerated speed that would suggest relativistic velocities.

Energy:Again it has been proven the expansion of matter.Gas and dust are matter,galaxies are matter,everything is matter,and since this is expanding,therefore the logical conclusion is that matter has been increasing,not space,space has always been there.


http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/March03/Branch/paper.pdf

The link above explains Type Ia supernovae the Hubble Constant along with the expansion of the universe.

[DontBeAfraid]

I think you guys are saying the same thing... What I think energy means is that matter is spreading not that it is actually getting bigger.

[Energy]

Originally posted by DontBeAfraid
I think you guys are saying the same thing... What I think energy means is that matter is spreading not that it is actually getting bigger.

Energy:This is what I meant to say.The matter is spreading IN space,because there the space between the matter,that it doesn't expand,it simply stands still and that same space is immovable,and infinite.

[AngelTV]

If the big bang did occur then there should be a shock wave spreading out at the outer reaches. Like a ripple in a pond. It wouldn't dissapate because in space a force continues infinitely. You would think it would be a big shock wave. Or is there no shock waves in space due to no medium to travel through.

[Energy]

Originally posted by AngelTV
If the big bang did occur then there should be a shock wave spreading out at the outer reaches. Like a ripple in a pond. It wouldn't dissapate because in space a force continues infinitely. You would think it would be a big shock wave. Or is there no shock waves in space due to no medium to travel through.

Energy:Yes,but astronomers can't see this wave spreading across the entire infinity.Their telescopes have limits,you know...

[lazserus]

Originally posted by AngelTV
If the big bang did occur then there should be a shock wave spreading out at the outer reaches. Like a ripple in a pond. It wouldn't dissapate because in space a force continues infinitely. You would think it would be a big shock wave. Or is there no shock waves in space due to no medium to travel through.
For starters, you can't think of the big bang as an actual explosion. There was a "shock wave", but not along the lines that you're thinking. This shock wave is actually low frequency light that fills our entire universe. When the big bang occurred, there was no matter or even energy as we measure now. It was just plasma energy. Plasma is nothing more than light at extremely short wavelengths (high frequency). The Cosmic Microwave Background is the remnant of the big bang. This is our "shock wave". Light doesn't slow down as time goes by, but it loses energy, hence the wavelength gets longer and the frequency drops. As of now, the frequency is at the microwave level.

[Energy]

For starters, you can't think of the big bang as an actual explosion. There was a "shock wave", but not along the lines that you're thinking. This shock wave is actually low frequency light that fills our entire universe. When the big bang occurred, there was no matter or even energy as we measure now. It was just plasma energy. Plasma is nothing more than light at extremely short wavelengths (high frequency). The Cosmic Microwave Background is the remnant of the big bang. This is our "shock wave". Light doesn't slow down as time goes by, but it loses energy, hence the wavelength gets longer and the frequency drops. As of now, the frequency is at the microwave level.

Yes,and you can't say that there wasn't energy,since the big bang would never occur if there wasn't energy to start the Big Bang.

[fanman123]

The universe is expanding because the energy from the big bang has yet to transform into another from of energy since energy cannot be destroyed, and to our knowledge there is nothing in space to stop the energy from expanding. Unless someday the universe runs into a "wall" or some other force so powerfull that can somehow stop energy its self which is impossible to our knowledge. Once that happens the universe will start to contract and will become the little extremely dense ball that it once was. After sometime it will most likely be triggered by something and another big bang will happen. So it is possible that we could be the third, fourth, fifth or possibly billionth universe to have ever existed.

[lazserus]

Once that happens the universe will start to contract and will become the little extremely dense ball that it once was.
The chances of the universe contracting in a "big crunch" is slim to none. Recent data (as in within the last 7 years) has shown us there isn't enough matter in the universe (including dark matter) to halt the expansion.

[static_cling]

I have a question that is a little off topic and maybe you guys can help. I understand the red shit theory that supports the big bang theory, but I am a little confused by the evidence. If I remember right the red shift is greater the farther a galaxy is away from us, and less for a galaxy that is closer to us. But the increased distance also means that the galaxy,as we see it, is farther back in time, where as the one that is closer is less detached from our time. So is it correct to say that a galaxy 50,000,000 light years away WAS moving away from us 50,000,000 years ago, we have no idea what it is doing now, we can only speculate as do what it is doing now. I'm sure there is a explination for that , if anyone could let me know I would appericate it.

[dutchie]

I have a question that is a little off topic and maybe you guys can help. I understand the red shit theory that supports the big bang theory, but I am a little confused by the evidence. If I remember right the red shift is greater the farther a galaxy is away from us, and less for a galaxy that is closer to us. But the increased distance also means that the galaxy,as we see it, is farther back in time, where as the one that is closer is less detached from our time. So is it correct to say that a galaxy 50,000,000 light years away WAS moving away from us 50,000,000 years ago, we have no idea what it is doing now, we can only speculate as do what it is doing now. I'm sure there is a explination for that , if anyone could let me know I would appericate it.Red shit is something you get from eating beetroot.. :grin
No seriously... I have had this discussion before: imaging the universe being a ball of dough, with lots of raisins mixed through. Now imagine we are one of those raisins, either on the surface of the ball, or deep inside, that makes no difference. Now imaging the dough rising (actually expanding) in a warm place. From the spot where our raisin is, it will seem as if ALL RAISINS ARE MOVING AWAY FROM US. This is most easily understood when you picture us sitting on the surface of the ball. And that is exactly what is happening here, in an expanding universe all lumps of matter are moving away from eachother. When you regard space as being the emptyness between the stars, then that space is NOT expanding, it simply has no boundaries. Now we're entering the realm of philosophy: in a universe where ALL matter is bound together in one point of unlimited denseness, time and space lose all significance, and could be regarded as non-existing. This is the state of the universe before the Big Bang.

[Red Shift]

My name is pretty appt here!

Any way i think what you are saying is correct static_cling! We know what it was doing all those years ago but we have no idea now! So yes you have got it in one!

[dutchie]

A very simple law of physics says that a weightless object in an empty environment will keep its speed forever, unless when drawn from that path by gravity or collision with another object. A galaxy moving away from us 50,000 years ago, will most probably still continue to do so, until it last star has turned to a ball of rust.

[lazserus]

Right. Newton's laws of motion state that in a perfect vaccuum an object (massive and massless) will remain in motion until another force is applied.