Magic and Christianity

[brodyhyde]

I have a queston regarding Magick. If Someone is a Christian can they practice Magick as long as they believe everything comes through God. Elijia, Moses, Aaron, Josua, Elisha...Why can't Magick be seperate frm Witchcraft?

[Traveler]

Magic= power gained and wielded by self in self interest = bad

Miracles = power from God with man of God standing in the gap serving Gods interests = good

[lycanox]

Offcource they can. Why not?
Magic is completely neutral. It can be used for good and evil.

The only reason why christianity is so biased against it is because they used to genocide people that used it before.
But in reality, there is plenty of magic in christianity as well.

[DaSoviet]

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…”
-Deuteronomy 18:9-12a
Whoops, guess not.

[Fut004]

Miracles = power from God with man of God standing in the gap serving Gods interests = good

What if "God" grants a human the ability to use "Magic"?
Would it still be bad?

I think the only reason Magic is bad for Christians is because it takes attention away from their God. He's a very selfish and jealous being, so anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.

[DaSoviet]

So anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.
Got it in one mate!

[lycanox]

Whoops, guess not.
That doesn't necessary include the use of magical rituals.

Just the believe in other gods and religions.

[DaSoviet]

That doesn't necessary include the use of magical rituals.

Just the believe in other gods and religions.

Did you not read it...


or one who conjures spells

[olddragon]

Christens are against anything that may challenge them as absolute.
God does not care.

[lycanox]

Did you not read it...


The description in Deuteronomy would outlaw every religion. Even christianity.
If you take it that way.
Its probably far more likely that it was just saying that you go to hell if you don't follow christianity.

[Nu Kua]

You can't really go on the Official Bible to give the answer as to whether or not Christians would use "magic", because so much of it was edited and hacked by the early Catholics. Much of the early Christian writings that were omitted do contain mystical esoterica.

Prayer is a form of magic, if done correctly. You need an emotional connection to the subject matter, a strong sustained visualization of the desired result, project that as if it were already true and then let it go - "give it to "God"- and you've set it up.
It's important to "forget about it", meaning, to stop worrying, because worrying expressed doubt, and doubt closes the mind and the heart. Since all material or physical changes have to begin first as a longing charged with an idea of how to obtain what you want or need, it's important to remain open to possibilities.

Magic and/or the power of God travels the path of least resistance.

There are several studies of how people are affected by the prayers of others, and also of the changes that take place in the brain during prayer or a mystical experience. I think there are so many levels of consciousness that many aren't aware of, and a web of energy that we can connect to and create from- if it is within the realm of possibility.

[DaSoviet]

So let me get this straight.

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?

[lycanox]

They can call it every name they want. But it stays magic.
And lots of things in the bible and christianity can be considered just that.

[Nu Kua]

So let me get this straight.

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?


Yes.
History proves me correct- the Bible as we know it now is nothing more than an overly edited, cut and pasted collection of dubiously authored writings chosen by humans with political motives to maintain the ignorance and subjugation of the common people, in order that they may continue to be submissive to the rule of the Catholic church.
Even if it had of initially been the "word of God" you can hardly make that claim today with a straight face, once you've done the research. And the only reason people believed it was ever THE Word of GOD is because that is what they were told to believe.

For instance, the concept of the Holy Trinity wasn't introduced as an official concept until the Council of Nicea, under Constantine, about 325 AD. It was taught that as God was of three, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, so were the heads of the church- Bishop, Priest, and Deacons... and as God was to be obeyed without question in all of his three manifestations, so were the leaders and the authority of the Church.
The laity did not even have their own copies of the Bible- the Bible wasn't allowed to be printed in ther language of the commoners, even those who could read. Only the three teirs of the church hierarchy were allowed the translations- and then they told the laity what was said and what God expected of them.
If it wasn't for Martin Luther, we'd be in even more of a mess today than what we are.

Yeah there are shreds of truth remaining, a bit of historical accuracy and some true beauty, as well. I enjoy the Bible- but if people want to gain a real understanding of what the early Christian movement was all about, and of the diversity of thought and practice among the earliest followers of the message, they simply must take the time to peruse as many of the earliest documents as they can, and gain their own truth of the situation and teachings from that.

[DaSoviet]

So we can all come to the conclusion that everyone is safe to practice magik.

Yet at the same time, run the risk of not being allowed into Heaven?

[lycanox]

Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.

[DaSoviet]

Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm an Atheist. I'm all about letting people have personal freedom's in all that.

I just think it's kinda like having double standards. For example the Bible states that Gays are an abomination.

Yet some Gays have the urge to campaign to get married with God as their witness in a church... See where I'm coming from?

[Nu Kua]

The Holy Bible is not the best guide to being a good Christian and advise on certain aspects should be sought elsewhere, even though the Bible is "the word of God"?

I thought about this a few minutes while cooking breakfast- actually, the Bible as it is would be the best guide to being a "good Christian" as that is what the average Christian uses for a guidebook.
The other writings, documents, letters, ect that were condemned as heresy are where one would look who is looking for the whole truth. Somebody said "If you want the truth, see what the heretics have to say."
The Old Testament of the Christian Bible is almost word for word the same as the Tanakh.
Yet why not also read and learn of the Jewish mystical traditions as well?
Take some of the early Jewish works (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/index.htm)- such as the Zohar and the Sepher Yezirah, the Qabala.
There's some High Magik, right there, buddy...

I think, if we were to compile a collection of books that might be considered "the word of God" we should include those. But it wouldn't be meet to teach people how to be in charge of their own lives, without going through the authority of the Church, now would it?


Don't get me wrong guys, I'm an Atheist. I'm all about letting people have personal freedom's in all that.

I just think it's kinda like having double standards. For example the Bible states that Gays are an abomination.

Yet some Gays have the urge to campaign to get married with God as their witness in a church... See where I'm coming from?

Yes, I do see where you are coming from. Those Gays have the audacity to use their own minds to discern what "God is Love" actually means. They are obviously not content to bow to the rule of the Church.

[brodyhyde]

They can call it every name they want. But it stays magic.
And lots of things in the bible and christianity can be considered just that.


Assuming the direct the rituals to god and company, yes.

But you can probably raise the same question about being gay, premarital sex, abortion and such.


I thought about this a few minutes while cooking breakfast- actually, the Bible as it is would be the best guide to being a "good Christian" as that is what the average Christian uses for a guidebook.
The other writings, documents, letters, ect that were condemned as heresy are where one would look who is looking for the whole truth. Somebody said "If you want the truth, see what the heretics have to say."
The Old Testament of the Christian Bible is almost word for word the same as the Tanakh.
Yet why not also read and learn of the Jewish mystical traditions as well?
Take some of the early Jewish works (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/index.htm)- such as the Zohar and the Sepher Yezirah, the Qabala.
There's some High Magik, right there, buddy...

I think, if we were to compile a collection of books that might be considered "the word of God" we should include those. But it wouldn't be meet to teach people how to be in charge of their own lives, without going through the authority of the Church, now would it?



Yes, I do see where you are coming from. Those Gays have the audacity to use their own minds to discern what "God is Love" actually means. They are obviously not content to bow to the rule of the Church.


I think youu guys are right on. If you really think about it, A human is the one that wrote down that the bible is the word of God, yet the bible tells us that all men are fallible, so how can you really trust that the Bible is giving you the whole story. Read the Gospel of James DaSoviet, it is one of the Nag Hammadi texts, and tell me what you think. As far as Magick goes, Read 2 kings 2:8

"8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground."

[Traveler]

Sometimes I find it hard to believe what I am reading, truly judgment falls on the generation that is ready for it.

Ok, give this some consideration.

No mortal man can move in the supernatural under their own strength. To do requires that they tap into a power source external to themselves.

Now there are two spiritual forces at work in this world and they are in opposition to one another. The one is greater but not so easily available as it has a whole lot of conditions attached. The other is more readily available but carries a delayed price that is not normally considered when invoked.

The first comes from God and will only operate in the interests of God. But is the most powerful

The second will cater to the individual and feed the individuals desires and greed etc but in the end will consume that individual. This is the one you consider neutral but the fact is that it cares not what you use it for so long as you use it because it opens the door to use you which is what its objective is

You choose!

[weederbro]

To a bible reader, it is obvious that the NT is intimately linked with the OT. The NT teachings do not contradict the Old, just FUlfil. The NT as it is, is what was arrived at by many a good man who were right to be fussy when it came to what was accepted into the canon. You can't elevate the NT to greater heights by adding anything. It reveals Jesus for who He was, a fulfilment of God's promises.

When reading Irenaus I hear Paul's concern regarding the importance of teaching correct doctrine. Teachings suggesting pantheism or other things not characteristic of the Word, were treated as they should have been. Things like,' For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven' are soooo not right.
Traveler is right about the distinction between magic and miracle. The Father is trying to protect you. No one dances with the devil and gets away clean...

[lycanox]

But isn't praying to ask god for a miracle, similar to asking the spirits for a miracle.

It stays magic. Only this time the power comes from god.

[weederbro]

I presume that people interested in this kind of thing believe there is a spirit realm.

The one who claims to be THE ONE GOD is SPIRIT

He tells us that spirits' rebelled and are hell bent on screwing over the children (us) using half truths and dirty tricks, and as it turns out, the apostate church in all its forms.

He warns us against 'hanging' with them. The price?

everlasting seperation in outer darkness, no friends to party with.

A person who believes in the spirit world would surely have to think twice?
Or be pretty confident that the spirit he was playing with didn't have a FATHER!

[Nu Kua]

One can practice magick and not believe in spirits.

Magick works through the levels of a "connecting web" that every living thing alive is connected to. This is known by many names but like God is somewhat undefinable. It is something like a consciousness. I wish I could show you the pictures in my mind, because I find the words lacking but the visual is full.
Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever we might name it, like mushrooms that emerge from mycellium.
Prayer also works along this level of connectivity, as long as it is the proper type of prayer, which does not involve passively begging God for a miracle.

As for the spirit mind in general, because events on this level often triggers often strong emotional responses, because it is hard to reach in this day and age of constant outward stimulation and noise, as well as the fact that often the communication on this level is not language based but is instead symbol based, we've mistakenly come to the conclusion it is "mysterious" and supernatural, somehow weird and untrustworthy.

It is none of those things.

[olddragon]

I can not explain it as well as all of you have.
Take my word for it, there is magic in our being.
Most people have suppressed these thoughts because of religion.
Or you get the eye roll, if you say you believe it.

[brodyhyde]

One can practice magick and not believe in spirits.

Magick works through the levels of a "connecting web" that every living thing alive is connected to. This is known by many names but like God is somewhat undefinable. It is something like a consciousness. I wish I could show you the pictures in my mind, because I find the words lacking but the visual is full.
Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever we might name it, like mushrooms that emerge from mycellium.
Prayer also works along this level of connectivity, as long as it is the proper type of prayer, which does not involve passively begging God for a miracle.

As for the spirit mind in general, because events on this level often triggers often strong emotional responses, because it is hard to reach in this day and age of constant outward stimulation and noise, as well as the fact that often the communication on this level is not language based but is instead symbol based, we've mistakenly come to the conclusion it is "mysterious" and supernatural, somehow weird and untrustworthy.

It is none of those things.


I can not explain it as well as all of you have.
Take my word for it, there is magic in our being.
Most people have suppressed these thoughts because of religion.
Or you get the eye roll, if you say you believe it.


Most Christians speak of Magick as if praying isn't the same thing. Praying is trying to use God to manifest reality. In magick, the God in both its male and female aspect are Invoked. The same way Christians Invoke Jesus in Prayer.

[weederbro]

'Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever ..'(quote NuKua)

The 'energy source' according to the Father is Spirit.
Praying by the Spirit isn't the same as a magic incantation, that's why it's forbidden, and strongly.
Of course not believing the Father's authority, one has to speak of 'energy sources' that enable someone to materialise in some way the object of their magic.
There is a presumption of knowledge about the workings of the 'energy', that it elicits the directive against it's use.

[brodyhyde]

'Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever ..'(quote NuKua)

The 'energy source' according to the Father is Spirit.
Praying by the Spirit isn't the same as a magic incantation, that's why it's forbidden, and strongly.
Of course not believing the Father's authority, one has to speak of 'energy sources' that enable someone to materialise in some way the object of their magic.
There is a presumption of knowledge about the workings of the 'energy', that it elicits the directive against it's use.

I'm not sure I understand how magick and prayer are different.

When you pray, you ask the father for whatever it is you wish, for someone to get better from being sick lets say. The person is petitioning for something.

So what is the difference if someone has realized that God has already given us all the ability to change our world, the same way we can alter reality through speaking, lets say. Look at what hitler did with just words. I guess what i'm saying is that to me, the ability to change things, mentally is the same as changing things physically. When i was a child everyone told me that God helps those who help themselves.

Please elaborate on the distinction for me. Thanks.

[weederbro]

Prayer is the petitioning of The Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, (according to the NT). These prayers are supposed to align 'with the will of the Father'.

Magic isn't.

[olddragon]

Hey bro, forget prayer a min.
Do you ever have a deep feeling inside you of power?
It seems to me that it is sub conscious thought trying to come to the surface.
To me it is magic trying to come back into our consciousness.
I'm sure you or NK could explain it better.

[Nu Kua]

'Everything that eventually manifests on the material/physical plane has its beginning from this energy source or whatever ..'(quote NuKua)

The 'energy source' according to the Father is Spirit.
Praying by the Spirit isn't the same as a magic incantation, that's why it's forbidden, and strongly.
Of course not believing the Father's authority, one has to speak of 'energy sources' that enable someone to materialise in some way the object of their magic.
There is a presumption of knowledge about the workings of the 'energy', that it elicits the directive against it's use.

What I am talking about goes beyond mere semantics.
It has nothing to do with forbidden incantations, nor the calling up of spirits.

Understand also when I say manifests, I do not mean as if, right before your very eyes suddenly an object appears out of nowhere. That is TV show magick.
What I am talking about I do not even like to call magick, because of all the incorrect associations that are attached to the word.

Many people are not aware just how our thoughts and inner visions really do affect the life around them. Where you are now is a direct result of your patterns of thought and your emotional make-up.
I am not talking about the thoughts you make yourself think, I am, talking about the ones that run continuously seemingly of their own volition. These are the thoughts that set our course in life, and the reasons why are the very reason that "magick" and also, if done correctly, "prayer", also work.

These are also the same laws behind the teaching that the mind, body, and spirit all reflect one another- every aspect of the health of your body is a reflection of your mind and emotions. I am not speaking of anything spooky or supernatural here. There have been studies documenting how hour emotions have an effect on our DNA even from a distance. I'll find the links and books.


Praying often itself IS an incantation, it surprises me you don't quite see that.
Many little Baptist children still recite this incantation over their dinner every night:

"God is Great, God is Good!
Let us thank Him for our food!
By His hands, we all are fed,
Give us Lord our Daily Bread,
Amen."

with the teaching that if thanks is not given before every meal, God might see us as ungrateful, and take away our future meals.

(I'm not trying to be funny, this is how I was raised and many of my nieces and nephews are being raised the same way.)

[weederbro]

Hi olddragon,
I think I've revealed what I think is the difference between scriptural prayer and magic.
As to 'power', I see it as the Holy Spirit stirring...... each to his own....


Hi Nu Kua!,
All I can say about memorised prayers is that the Father doesn't want formulas when you communicate with Him. It would be disappointing if we, when communicating with each other, resorted to propaganda type comments, rather than sharing our hearts. What passes for 'christianity' isn't always scriptural.

I remember a time when walking through the park on my way to work, I would 'recite' the Lord's prayer. I'd do this every day. After three or four days I realised I'd slow down at the part, 'and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us..' I realised that I had a block on that one, and went my way the wiser. Then I realised that every line could be considered in this way and I had to be aware of falling into rote utterances.

[Jake99]

Yes.
History proves me correct- the Bible as we know it now is nothing more than an overly edited, cut and pasted collection of dubiously authored writings chosen by humans with political motives to maintain the ignorance and subjugation of the common people, in order that they may continue to be submissive to the rule of the Catholic church.
Even if it had of initially been the "word of God" you can hardly make that claim today with a straight face, once you've done the research. And the only reason people believed it was ever THE Word of GOD is because that is what they were told to believe.

QUOTE]

I agree but even the confused version of the bible has the information god wants to convey contained within it. I was taught internally while being given external information and it put me on a path where I performed magic and created miracles almost daily. Illusions are different from magic in that they trick you into seeing something that was staged and not real. Magic is when you apply knowledge and action and gain a miraculous result. The world was flat and only birds could fly and the planet could never be united under one government led by one man. My mind and my plan to save the world is so far ahead of what mankind can imagine and yet it is such an easy transition into the new world if you believe in the man who comes to save you.

[QUOTE=DaSoviet;204569]
I just think it's kinda like having double standards. For example the Bible states that Gays are an abomination.

Yet some Gays have the urge to campaign to get married with God as their witness in a church... See where I'm coming from?

Marriage is reserved for those who intend to breed and it is a commitment to the children that come from that union of two into one.

The gays are still heavily populated in the catholic church and their followers call them "Father and Holy Father" which I stand against.


Sometimes I find it hard to believe what I am reading, truly judgment falls on the generation that is ready for it.

Ok, give this some consideration.

No mortal man can move in the supernatural under their own strength. To do requires that they tap into a power source external to themselves.

Now there are two spiritual forces at work in this world and they are in opposition to one another. The one is greater but not so easily available as it has a whole lot of conditions attached. The other is more readily available but carries a delayed price that is not normally considered when invoked.

The first comes from God and will only operate in the interests of God. But is the most powerful

The second will cater to the individual and feed the individuals desires and greed etc but in the end will consume that individual. This is the one you consider neutral but the fact is that it cares not what you use it for so long as you use it because it opens the door to use you which is what its objective is

You choose!

I totally agree. The kingdom I have explained has many rules that are currently broken as if it were exceptable to do so. Do you have any idea how many current jobs will be lost and gone forever in the world supergoverning system I have been preaching about? And do you realize that all the jobs that need to be done will have all the manpower and materials that satan once controlled available to do gods work instead and what that new mission will turn this planet into. I will give you a hint: That simple system change will lead to a state of paradise on earth within a short period of time. And that super government is as far from mans ways as you can possibly get.

The choice is up to this generation and I pray that you will join me and choose wisely before you elect another wolf in sheeps clothing.

[Crimepunisher]

The choice is up to this generation and I pray that you will join me and choose wisely before you elect another wolf in sheeps clothing.

But I like wolves...I do, dammit.


Do you have any idea how many current jobs will be lost and gone forever in the world supergoverning system I have been preaching about?

Wouldn't that lead to an economic collapse? Unless currency is worthless in this new world of yours, sorry if I missed that ranting.


Marriage is reserved for those who intend to breed and it is a commitment to the children that come from that union of two into one.

So women who are barren and men who are impotent shouldn't be allowed to marry?

[Traveler]

This is what the Christian bible says about this subject

[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
[13] Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
[14] For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

To say that the Catholics changed the bible is not correct because this is from the old testament and this was preserved by the Jews.

To say that Prayer is the same as the dark arts is BS as again there is a difference between the two and the instruction is not to suffer a witch to live.

But what this thread has done is show just how far down the path of deception the world has traveled. What I see is the start of the opening of the fifth seal of revelation.

9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

There can be little doubt that there is a growing hatred being developed against the Christians and Jews world wide. You will see the fulfillment of this event in your life times, but it is only after this that things will stop going the worlds way. This is the event that will mark the closing of the age of grace. After this there will no doubt in anybodies mind that there is a God but by then the dye will have been cast and the results sure to follow.

[lycanox]

And how would you explain the plagues of Egypt. The parting of the red sea, the healing Jesus performed and such. Sounds like magic too me.

The bible only forbids the magic rituals performed for other gods than god. If the magic comes from god itself, things are perfectly fine.
You can call it a prayer or miracle or what you like. But basically it is still magic.



1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

2.
a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
b. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

[Assassin X]

Ok well I think this subject is silly but whatever.

There no magic in Christianity. In old testament miracles happened and stuff like that. But that was during times when important events were going on. Stuff like that doesn't happen. As in we won't see seas split or water turn to wine...well not on its own lol.

About the only thing that happens today is miracles and those have skeptics everywhere but I have seen them. The second thing would be preachers that perform miracles. Those are usually fake since most are out to make a buck but there are rarely ever preacher that have a gift from god. And its really complicated.

And so for "real" magic. At least how I was raised we believe that witchcraft, voodoo, the dark arts are all very real. We have local convents (SP?) where warlocks and witches meet. And when us christians happen to be at the same spot as them (in public) and they are dressed normally (as in normal street clothes) we get the weirdest feeling ever. Its indescribable. Its like feeling a evil presence. And its only around the ones that are ACTUALLY into it not the pretenders. And they can tell we sense it.

Same goes for people into Voodoo or other dark arts. My uncle I have always loved. Well we hadn't heard from him in awhile and he came over one day after being gone for months and when I opened the door I felt so weird I said "Oh my god what they hell are into. Your making me sick!" He actually broke down and said he was in New Orleans and getting deep into voodoo. He got out of it eventually. My mom felt it too.

Its not actually that people know this stuff. Its demons give them powers if you give yourself to evil. Theres nothing magical about it. While alot of possession videos are fake. I have seen some that are very real. I have witnessed one that was real. I can't even describe it.

Anyways so take that however you will. Even if you want to say God does not exist. Evil does. And it is very dark and it is out there.

[Traveler]

And how would you explain the plagues of Egypt. The parting of the red sea, the healing Jesus performed and such. Sounds like magic too me.

The bible only forbids the magic rituals performed for other gods than god. If the magic comes from god itself, things are perfectly fine.
You can call it a prayer or miracle or what you like. But basically it is still magic.


As pointed out earlier, the source of the power is the problem. practice magic you pay the price later. There are two spiritual forces at work in the affairs of men that are in opposition to eachother. We have been caught up in the cross fire but there can be little doubt from what has been said on this thread which side the majority are aliening themselves with.

This is to be expected as broad is the highway that leads to destruction and many are those that walk along it but narrow is the path that leads to life and few are those that find it.

[lycanox]

However, the term magic can be applied to any supernatural way to achieve a goal. Both good and evil.
Regardles on what the source or how it is achieved. Its just what the term means.

What you are talking about is the difference between good and bad magic.

[Jake99]

This is to be expected as broad is the highway that leads to destruction and many are those that walk along it but narrow is the path that leads to life and few are those that find it.

The path that leads to life is the one that the strange and unusual man is walking and if you fall in behind him and walk in his shoes you will see the eternal life that he promises to give you.


But I like wolves...I do, dammit.

I like wolves too they have been proven to be an important part of the food chain, but not the ones in sheeps clothing who sit in the seat of power and devour, lead and judge.

Wouldn't that lead to an economic collapse? Unless currency is worthless in this new world of yours, sorry if I missed that ranting.

Currency is dirty, heavy and corruptable it would be eliminated and all finances and transactions would be done in electronic credits. The debts to the banks would be forgiven so the currency and banks would be immediatly out of business and would have no value or control over the people.

So women who are barren and men who are impotent shouldn't be allowed to marry?

You bring up a good point and the first question I am having difficulty answering. What separtes barren and impotent people from homosexuals is nothing so to concieve a child turns a civil union into a marriage. You can divorce from a civil union but not from a marriage unless the children are successfully on thier own. That is not to say that the subject is closed, I see a tough issue, civil unions should get the same rights to a homemaker and a wage earner that way everyone can have proper support at home. We will have to see if there are still those who turn to homosexual behavior when stress is removed from life. Those who would be considered adoptable parents by way of capable thinking skills and income level could become married even if they were of the same sex because a marriage supports children and a civil union is just 2 people being considered as one.




[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

I am the prophet that comes from the midst of thee and I left hundreds of wonderful miraculous works and biblical prophecies in my wake just as the bible said the Messiah would. Not one bit of magic but the results were magical, you go on a holiday weekend and when you come back to work it has been completly remodled and all the problems are gone just like that about 12 times. When you add up all the times I turned water into wine it fills alot of books and yet water and wine was just a comparison of before and after Jake99 sped past and blessed the operation with knowledge. I almost single handedly designed and dictated the resconstruction and automation of Hostess Cake and was involved in some Wonder Bread operational upgrades. One unbelievable idea and repair after another installed until hundreds of problems dissapeared permanently. I was given complete creative control of the biggest most complicated baking business in the U.S. and I raised the bar untill the performance charts and graphs went straight up out of sight and stayed there.

But what this thread has done is show just how far down the path of deception the world has traveled.

The world was not ready for the system that Jesus was proposing since it required the Internet and improved technology in order to work.

[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I have been hard at work for many decades setting the table for the fall of Satan. I got my foot on his head at Y2K when I dragged his evil carcass into court and punched his teeth in along with his friends at the same time and then I asked the court to unconditionally surrender to me through my lawyer and in writting

There can be little doubt that there is a growing hatred being developed against the Christians and Jews world wide. You will see the fulfillment of this event in your life times, but it is only after this that things will stop going the worlds way. This is the event that will mark the closing of the age of grace. After this there will no doubt in anybodies mind that there is a God but by then the dye will have been cast and the results sure to follow.

The Christians and Jews tried to crucify the Messiah at Y2K and they pollute and promote war and waste, They are the moneychangers, soldiers and salesman that Jesus wanted never in the temple again and guess who has control of the planet and has led it to the brink of destruction. The narrow path I want the world to get on behind me leads to everlasting peace and prosperity on earth. The wide road that Hillary,Barack and McCain want to show you more of is Satans driveway and it leads to hell on earth.

[Mistress]

What if "God" grants a human the ability to use "Magic"?
Would it still be bad?

I think the only reason Magic is bad for Christians is because it takes attention away from their God. He's a very selfish and jealous being, so anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.

The god of the christians is often referred to as the jealous god. Selfish, greedy and prone to tantrums. You can tell what a god is like by looking at the deeds of thier followers.

[weederbro]

'The god of the christians is often referred to as the jealous god. Selfish, greedy and prone to tantrums. You can tell what a god is like by looking at the deeds of thier followers.'(Quote: Mistress)

That is the most arrogent load of tosh I've read for a while. Thank goodness it was brief.

The truth is, you'll never see the Father as He actually is, that would take a purity of heart that our species has apparently lost. Replaced by the delusion that we are the be-all and end-all of creation, and smart enough to hoe our own row.
Well look around. We're cleverer than ever before, materially comforted and comparitively free, yet we're staring Armageddon in the face and everything that once was held as sacred is being flushed down the toilet. Rebellion and smart -mouthed ignorance in a great 'dumbing down'.
This is where we're at, 'WE' are idiotconsumeregomaniacs and the Father is LIFE, PURITY and LOVE.
(If the paradigm is in fact true)
From HIS way in Eden, to our way since. Yeah we're really great arn't we?

GET OVER YOURSELVES.
Magic is bad because it comes from ego and materialism, and involves unseen powers that are in opposition to the Father's will.
There's no 'dancing with the devil' and getting away with it.
For long....

[Nu Kua]

Weederbro, all you have to do is read the Bible and see how Mistress came to that conclusion.
God is even quoted as saying it himself.

Exodus 25:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.


Deutoronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Nahum 3:12
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

These are only four verses I chose out of many that speaks of an insecure God with an obviously fragile ego who seems to be afflicted not only with bi-polar disorder, but with anger management issues as well.

"Magic is bad because it comes from ego and materialism" is an arrogant load of tosh, frankly, because not only does it show a lack of understanding about what "magic" really is, it also shows that you assume that everybody who understands how to work with it would only use it for greedy purposes. As a former Wiccan, I can tell you from direct experience that we were taught not to ever ask for "free money" simply because you learn that energetically speaking, nothing is free- everything involves a give and take. People in a tight situation were encouraged to work for understanding and work for employment or increased sales, ect, depending on the unique and individual situation, but never for a hand-out. During the many years I spent practicing, most "magic" I partook in or worked with others was for energy work or healing, or increased understanding of all sides of an issue.
Just like prayer.
Some people pray hard for more money, does that mean that all prayers are from greedy materialistic bastards?
Some people even pray for revenge on their enemies. Does this mean that all prayerful people are vengeful at heart?


When you speak of magic, you are speaking from a grossly misinformed stance.
I think that people tend to have a network TV idea of what magic is, and of the type of people who chose to work with it.
Wiccans, for instance, do not believe in Satan, at all, because most are too intelligent to fall for that fairytale- the only religions that have themselves a Satan to contend with are the monotheistic religions- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity; note too, these are the most violent of religions.

[Jake99]

Nahum 3:12
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

These are only four verses I chose out of many that speaks of an insecure God with an obviously fragile ego who seems to be afflicted not only with bi-polar disorder, but with anger management issues as well.

"Magic is bad because it comes from ego and materialism" is an arrogant load of tosh, frankly, because not only does it show a lack of understanding about what "magic" really is, it also shows that you assume that everybody who understands how to work with it would only use it for greedy purposes. Wiccans, for instance, do not believe in Satan, at all, because most are too intelligent to fall for that fairytale- the only religions that have themselves a Satan to contend with are the monotheistic religions- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity; note too, these are the most violent of religions.



If you have seen me you have seen god for I was made in his image. I was tested for bi-polar and anger management issues in so many ways that the doctors concluded that I was the most intelligent person they ever tested.

I never lost my cool under extreme pressure and I always maintain my wrath against the enimies of god in a way that is firm and fair.

Satan is not a being but a direction and the world is being led by Satan. I take vengeance on my foes in situations that no other person would dare to challenge. I stand against all religions and holidays due to the violence, waste and worshipping of other than god the creator.

I never profited from the magic and the miracles I created because what I am here to give is knowledge of things mankind does not know and that I give for free.

[olddragon]

Jake you can not be him.
Jeremiah is here!!!!!

[brodyhyde]

Satan is not a being but a direction and the world is being led by Satan.

How can the world be led by a direction, Jake? :dunno:

[Jake99]

Change the rules and the mission statement to non profit, unified globally, standardized with no land or business owners and presto like magic you get the New World spoken about in the bible. Mankind is being guided in the wrong direction by 180 degrees which is why this is called Satans world.

[iulian28ti]

Magic= power gained and wielded by self in self interest = bad

Miracles = power from God with man of God standing in the gap serving Gods interests = good

LOL, Jesus was trying to raise his rating, that's all :D

[Lightmind]

Weederbro, all you have to do is read the Bible and see how Mistress came to that conclusion.
God is even quoted as saying it himself.

Exodus 25:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.


Deutoronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Nahum 3:12
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

These are only four verses I chose out of many that speaks of an insecure God with an obviously fragile ego who seems to be afflicted not only with bi-polar disorder, but with anger management issues as well.

"Magic is bad because it comes from ego and materialism" is an arrogant load of tosh, frankly, because not only does it show a lack of understanding about what "magic" really is, it also shows that you assume that everybody who understands how to work with it would only use it for greedy purposes. As a former Wiccan, I can tell you from direct experience that we were taught not to ever ask for "free money" simply because you learn that energetically speaking, nothing is free- everything involves a give and take. People in a tight situation were encouraged to work for understanding and work for employment or increased sales, ect, depending on the unique and individual situation, but never for a hand-out. During the many years I spent practicing, most "magic" I partook in or worked with others was for energy work or healing, or increased understanding of all sides of an issue.
Just like prayer.
Some people pray hard for more money, does that mean that all prayers are from greedy materialistic bastards?
Some people even pray for revenge on their enemies. Does this mean that all prayerful people are vengeful at heart?


When you speak of magic, you are speaking from a grossly misinformed stance.
I think that people tend to have a network TV idea of what magic is, and of the type of people who chose to work with it.
Wiccans, for instance, do not believe in Satan, at all, because most are too intelligent to fall for that fairytale- the only religions that have themselves a Satan to contend with are the monotheistic religions- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity; note too, these are the most violent of religions.

Good post NK

Weederbro et al...
Can you not see, that this is not the actions or beliefs of a loving God. These are the behaviours of a self-serving institution, one that seeks to claim monopoly of "Good", whilst disempowering it's own members. It claims sole right of communication, with the "One God", sole right of translation, sole right of distribution, and of course sole right of Judgement. If you enhance the power of the institution, you are called a Saint and your magic is "Good". If you seek to undermine it's power or authority, you are a sinner and your magic is "Evil". This is a very HUMAN mechanism, a behaviour pattern that is evident in many Multi-national corporations today.
Do I go to Hell for writing these words? Are my morals so base? Is this an arrogance supreme? If it is, and I recant these words, am I then saved?

Truth is mate, the Christian church drew a line many, many years ago. It backed itself into a corner, and now has no where to run. The sheep have become far more sophisticated, and far less mono, than the sheperd. What we see now, is the last desperate gasps of "Apocalyse is nigh!" and some of these "wise" and "good" people are praying to God and hoping for it to happen!

And you wanna lecture us, sinners, about evil intent..... Remove the beam from thine eye!

[Jake99]

I want to show the world techno magic in a way that no one other than I have even imagined. Turning Water into Wine is a simple systematic process improvement that multiplies resorses. You have to theoretically Walk on Water or have knowledge that others do not have to perform miraculous works which is what I have specialized in doing in the past. Animals will breed and crops will grow at highly efficient rates if we manage the planet with respect and the big picture in mind.

[Crimepunisher]

I want to show the world techno magic in a way that no one other than I have even imagined.

So you're the next Aphex Twin?

[Nonfiction]

Whoops, guess not.


“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” -Deuteronomy 18:9-12a


The drawing of lots to choose an apostle, could be categorized as something similar to "reading the tea leaves." I think the bottom line is what is the purpose of the activity. Is it to defraud, or is it real power, for some real good purpose? Why cast lots, why not just ask God and have him verbally respond? I see the same thing in Jesus' criticism of His generation being able to discern the weather, but not the time of His coming. The clairvoyants knew who He was, and who the disciples where. Which raises an interesting point. If you have the spiritual gifts to see things others cannot, what harm is there in using these to do something helpful?

For those who don't know the story of what I'm talking about.

"So they drew lots for them, and when the lot fell on Matthias, he was enrolled with the eleven apostles." - [Acts 1:26] (http://bible.cc/acts/1-26.htm)

I don't think "magik" is a replacement for prayer, and this is the real problem with using it.

[Ciretose10]

Sound Great, but me and you both know that the key to the type of power that you are trying to show the world is derived from illegal force that does not have a legal right to rule in this world without a earth suite (body). So in turn you have gladly shared yours with him. Sounds like it would now unleash its fury on mankind and you are afraid of it because deep inside you know you can’t control it so you look though the scriptures to justify it and yet you still don’t see. The Lord has already spoken on this matter and said “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” -Deuteronomy 18:9-12a I REPEAT “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” -………………. Can you hear me now!

[Zenith]

What if "God" grants a human the ability to use "Magic"?
Would it still be bad?

I think the only reason Magic is bad for Christians is because it takes attention away from their God. He's a very selfish and jealous being, so anything that makes him look less mighty is bad.I don't agree. I believe in a God who loves all the souls he creates and he doesn't spite anyone who chooses to believe something/someone else. He is perfect. Envy and selfishness are both sins and God is not a sinner. He's a lover, not a fighter. ::):

[Serr]

Just one thing I want to mention here is that the Bible describes everything as having a spiritual principality behind it. Such as, a person having the ability to "see" can do it either through the spirit of God or through a familiar spirit. So the Bible acknowledges that some people are gifted with abilities that most are not. However the channel that they use to attend to this gift is what makes it either good or bad. The question is "Do you tap into the spiritual realm through the spirit of God or through the other side?" Hope this helps.

[proffett]

Ceremonial magick has been around for aeons, as has mundane magick. Long before the Bible was ever in existence, before any text, holy or not, were ever conceived. As a mystic, I know, as did the ancients, that all things, living and not, seen and unseen have an energy signature. Magick is simply the manipulation of this divine energy. Within the Bible and gnostic texts alike there are references to the use of Magick. Jesus and St. Mary Magdalene were both adepts. They each taught in circles, they made talismens and charms, they blessed and banished and served the Sacred Spirit. Taking it one step further, Jesus was the physical manifestation of the God and Mary was the physical embodiment of the Goddess, combined they are the divine androgeny that are still worshipped today in Paganism, Neopaganism and Wicca.

Skip ahead to the creation of Christianity as a dogmatic church controlled religion. The ancient ways were eraticated and magick was relocated to the realm of Satanism. Why? Because if you have a wise woman or a shaman who brings prosperity to their region without the use of the Church's God then no one in that region will convert. It's more like a business plan than salvation. Christianity is akin to Walmart, purging it's competition and packaging it's product in nicely adorned and easily obtainable boxes.

Magick was no longer needed and is thus outside of the box and over the ages has been targeted as evil. Even though, in it's purest form, it is anything but evil.

[rdhdangel]

i do believe magick can be used for evil intent, or used with the intent of good but infact it is just plain evil no matter how its use intendend, not because of what the person wants in the desired affects to be but because what it opens the heart and soul of that person to. gives an opertunty for evil to enter either in spirit form or evil intention in the heart of the human. that is what is seen in alot of occults and that is what they were way back then. magick that is beyond human understanding and has to be summend or requires a ritual can get way out of control way too fast. which is why that passage in dueteronomy strickly forbid it as being destable to god.

as far as magick coming natrually from god, same thing as clairvionce. we all have natrual intution just some are stronger than others and more devoloped/understood than others because of the phobias created from their church, or their afraid of how others will view it, or it not being believed. jesus even had clairvionce, its written in the gospels. jesus even said, "my will is not my own, but the father. i do nothing except by the will my father." so god had to be directing him and telling him through his spirit/clairvionce. religions teach that for gods active force to be in ur life u have to go to church and have a religion. its a way of getting control over people and getting money. but i believe that gods active force works through the individual human spirit (not church or religion), used to communicate certain things and can be used for prayer. u certainly dont need to be a wiccan, or part of religous group to use that form of 'magick' or whatever u would like to call it. its comes directly to and from god. can be a dream, vision, or gut feeling.

dont confuse it with clairvioyence from god with omens or fortunetelling, they are easily confused as being the same thing. they are not. fortune telling or omens originate from cult practices, and was considered spiritism/demonism back then. now its formed into look into my crystal ball and u will know ur future....or another example is vodoo magick.

thats my take on it, before u guys tear me apart, and correct me, let me say my prayer to god and hope its not too bad.

[Goldmoon]

I was once wiccan, I practiced rituals, I was obsessed with Magick. I always had symbols, items, an athane, everything. Made circles to practice in. It was mostly in search of self-empowerment. Little did I know at the time, I was actually practicing Idolatry, Sorcery, and inviting massive curses into my own life in the process. I thought I had it all figured out, and I was "cool" and accepting of everything and anything. I thought everything I was doing was good, and natural, liberating to all people. I thought I was representing nature, I never saw anything as evil. But I was using Magick, the symbolic language of the fallen angels, and lucifer.

One man always used to tell me, witchcraft is real, he had studied eastern religions for over 20 years, and he told me, yes, control magic is real, he gave me many examples of strange magical acts, performances, etc... But, he always said, there is something much more powerful than that. I never got what he meant, but I knew he was talking about the Christian God, I hated the Christian God and all Christian people, and so I always just carried on with my ways and my sorceries, and my self empowerment & sigil magick in the occult. It was all about me.

It was only until a few years later that I finally started to see the truth, and the power and grace of the true God. It was really hard to look past all the tricks, but eventually everything can be simply thrown away. All I needed was myself and God. Actually myself for God. Not any false God, but the Creator God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the God of Israel.

Prayer.

[UVsaturated]

Actually myself for God. Not any false God, but the Creator God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the God of Israel.

Prayer.

Yes, the one who lives within you. For God does not need you to worship an image, but can dwell within you if you can see what is wicked and what is not. For this I am talking about within yourself, not outside of yourself.

The ultimate deception has occurred that God has been bound and chained within you as a small voice. While you are busy in the world you are never paying attention to the spirit within you which is the real life. Left long enough and it dies and brings the body with it. The ones who know are counting on a rebirth within themselves, to which everyone will be blessed.

[Goldmoon]

Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed
1 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake.2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore.3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
"Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died.7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."
10 His disciples came and asked him, "Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?"
11 He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets* of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.13 That is why I use these parables,

For they look, but they don't really see.
They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.

[Goldmoon]

Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed
1 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake.2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore.3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
"Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died.7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."
10 His disciples came and asked him, "Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?"
11 He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets* of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.13 That is why I use these parables,

For they look, but they don't really see.
They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.

16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn't see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn't hear it.

18 "Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don't understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.21 But since they don't have deep roots, they don't last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word.22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God's word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God's word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!"

[Jake99]

Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed
1 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake.2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore.3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
"Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died.7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."
10 His disciples came and asked him, "Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?"
11 He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets* of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.13 That is why I use these parables,

For they look, but they don't really see.
They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.

Jesus demonstrated with symbolism in order to stimulate the mind into waking up to the realities, possibilities and oportunities for a better World.

I have been saying I am the Messiah of the Bible for many years and only a few people have understood me.

[Assassin X]

I don't know if this was mentioned but its simple to tell whats good and whats bad.

All powers that came through God...well came through God. Not of this earth. So those are good.

Any other powers came from Satan. Now you would say but can you prove that? Well Satan is the ruler of earth. Hence if you want to use spells, voodoo...etc. It all comes from one source....satan.

I'll use wiccans. And I hate to do it because we have some at AO. But they believe in the god of the earth. And according to christians the god of the earth is Satan. I wrote about this somewhere else. So therefor when you talk about spells and all you talking about using them because you got your power from teh god of the earth... Satan. Hence its bad.

Assuming of course you believe in christianity. If not then it doens't matter because you can beleive what you want.

I personally could care less because I am here to enjoy life with people...Athiests, Wiccans...whoever. Well assuming your house isn't filed to the brim with what you believe in. I don't want feel akward. But other then that I accept people. Alot of christians don't because even mention of anything non christian is like some big ass sin.

Our one friend won't even learn about egyptians because of what they worship. He thinks you will go to hell if you do, kinda like you are idolizing the egyptian beliefs over your own. How stupid. Your just learning about something.

[proffett]

I don't know if this was mentioned but its simple to tell whats good and whats bad.

All powers that came through God...well came through God. Not of this earth. So those are good.

Your general assumption here is flawed. There is negative on Earth, in the Universe, and within every being. Negative = Bad to us simple humans, however negative is just the opposite of positive. We gave it the "bad" connection. There is yin energy and yang energy in everything. Therefore even God, has the ability to to be Yang or negative. However, God is completely in balance with yin/yang. A good illustration is that God is the balancin point of a fulcrum.


Any other powers came from Satan. Now you would say but can you prove that? Well Satan is the ruler of earth.

According to who? The Bible? Hmm.. Ok. I'll pay along for this one. Let's say Satan is yang energy, here on Earth we are dominated by this negative energy. Wars, famines, genocide, dis-ease.. The list just goes on and on doesn't it? The trick that adepts use is transforming this negative energy into positive energy. If more people bothered perhaps this place would be such a shit storm.


Hence if you want to use spells, voodoo...etc. It all comes from one source....satan.

*Sigh*... Christian indoctrination anyone? Are you aware that Satan was created by man to convert the heathens? It was used as a means to suppress ancient esoteric knowledge that masters, healers, pagans and others used on a daily basis.

Are you familiar with daily affirmations? Basically, the idea is to wake up daily and affirm to yourself that you are special, worthy or loved. It is a way to strengthen yourself mentally, to handle stress and to visualize what you want in life.

Are you aware of the law of attraction? That if believe you are happy you will be and happiness will come to your life and fill you? If you believe you are rich ( spiritually and physically) you will bring forth that wealth to yourself?

Both above examples are spells or charms. And they work. Are they inherantly evil? Of course not. They are simply ways of transforming negative into positive and thus bringing that back to the originator.


I'll use wiccans. And I hate to do it because we have some at AO. But they believe in the god of the earth. And according to christians the god of the earth is Satan. I wrote about this somewhere else. So therefor when you talk about spells and all you talking about using them because you got your power from teh god of the earth... Satan. Hence its bad.

You're mistaken here. I speak from the view of a master, however, I will not deny that many teeny-bop kids dabble in this ideaology because of the allure and secrecy that surrounds the Occult. Wiccan's worship the Divine however it manifests. We worship nature because the divine created it, we revere the skies because the Divine created it, we appreciate ourselves because we were created by the divine as well. We celebrate the idea that everything is holy, everything is part of the matrix of creation and everything is sacred. Although it is touted as an Earth- based philosophy, technically, it is an appreciation of our world (both seen and unseen parts) that brings us close to The All.



Assuming of course you believe in christianity. If not then it doens't matter because you can beleive what you want.

There are many paths that lead to salvation. Just don't persecute me again. I'm tired of dying for your "god".


Alot of christians don't because even mention of anything non christian is like some big ass sin.

Isn't that funny? Most of Christianity, if not all, originates from other ancient cultures, myths and Occult beliefs.


Our one friend won't even learn about egyptians because of what they worship. He thinks you will go to hell if you do, kinda like you are idolizing the egyptian beliefs over your own. How stupid. Your just learning about something.

And this is exactly why most Christians remain blind to the truth.

[DontBeAfraid]

Golkdmoon, DONT SPAM THE BOARDS WITH DISCONNECTED SCRIPTURE! I have a bible, I dont need you to post it here for me. If you have something to say that is related to the discussion then say it. If you want to read your bible to people then go start a fucking church.

[Assassin X]

Well like everything else every side is gonna say thats not true. Christians say one thing, Wiccans another, Jewish another, Buddhist another....etc. It doesn't mean I am wrong or you are, neither does it mean I am right are you are. It just means we believe what we believe. However I do believe the only answer to who is right is when you die and of course we will never know the turth there since its kinda hard to come back from death. And thus the never ending battle continues on. lol.

[DontBeAfraid]

However I do believe the only answer to who is right is when you die and of course we will never know the turth there since its kinda hard to come back from death.You need to expand on this thought AssX. Follow it to its logical conclusions. Not here on the boards but in your own personal life. Enlightenment will come in the form of the realization that "you dont know".

[proffett]

Well like everything else every side is gonna say thats not true. Christians say one thing, Wiccans another, Jewish another, Buddhist another....etc. It doesn't mean I am wrong or you are, neither does it mean I am right are you are. It just means we believe what we believe. However I do believe the only answer to who is right is when you die and of course we will never know the turth there since its kinda hard to come back from death. And thus the never ending battle continues on. lol.

That's true. We all have different views. I simply don't want my beliefs to be dragged through the mud due to misconception and deceit.. again.. and again..and again..

[J. Cruise]

I don't agree. I believe in a God who loves all the souls he creates and he doesn't spite anyone who chooses to believe something/someone else. He is perfect. Envy and selfishness are both sins and God is not a sinner. He's a lover, not a fighter. ::):

Okay, so "the christian 'god" is in fact a sinner.

Guilty of: Wrath (first born's of Egypt anyone? The flood of Noah?... if you believe in all this crap anyways.. and that all goes against the whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment too!)

Lust ( he made pregnant a mortal woman... and never called her again that bastard!!!...., which broke his "thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" commandment)

Pride (he deffinitely has the need to feel more important than EVERYTHING else)

Sloth (modern interpretation: the failure to utilize one's talents and gifts) I mean he was pretty active in "shaping humanity" for what 4k years or so (according to "young earth" fanatics) and then just stopped trying! lol tisk tisk....

Now were those commandments just for us? Cuz that would make him a hypocrite and I sure wouldn't wanna follow one of them! :humpin:

Now on to the other nutjob... Goldmoon:


I was once wiccan, I practiced rituals, I was obsessed with Magick. I always had symbols, items, an athane, everything. Made circles to practice in. It was mostly in search of self-empowerment. Little did I know at the time, I was actually practicing Idolatry, Sorcery, and inviting massive curses into my own life in the process. I thought I had it all figured out, and I was "cool" and accepting of everything and anything. I thought everything I was doing was good, and natural, liberating to all people. I thought I was representing nature, I never saw anything as evil. But I was using Magick, the symbolic language of the fallen angels, and lucifer.

Well I'd say you weren't a very good Wiccan if you were only in search of "self-empowerment" in fact I'd say that you were a terrible Wiccan. It's not about "self-empowerment", it's about being one with everything around you, and learning from the life energies that flow thru every living thing, not trying to become some super powerful "war mage" or something of the like.

If anything the "self-empowerment" that you achieve in Wicca is released back into the world by the good deeds you do. Let me ask you this: If I recite a spell to help my grandfather in the healing process he's in after surgery for cancer does that make me a bad person? Am I going to "hell" for trying to help my family from a rather painful ordeal? Or if I use my healing ability to take away the cramps my wife has during her pregnancy, does that make me evil? Because if so then I'm really screwed! lol Wiccan's help people, maybe in a stranger way than you'd like, but that's what they do.

Now as for the whole "Lucifer" thing, you might want to do a bit more research on that, clearly you don't know your own "faith" since only once is the name "Lucifer" written, and it was a mistranslation. There's a whole thread about it somewhere around here.. I'll find it later!


One man always used to tell me, witchcraft is real, he had studied eastern religions for over 20 years, and he told me, yes, control magic is real, he gave me many examples of strange magical acts, performances, etc... But, he always said, there is something much more powerful than that. I never got what he meant, but I knew he was talking about the Christian God, I hated the Christian God and all Christian people and so I always just carried on with my ways and my sorceries, and my self empowerment & sigil magick in the occult. It was all about me.

That statement right there proves you were not a true Wiccan!


It was only until a few years later that I finally started to see the truth, and the power and grace of the true God. It was really hard to look past all the tricks, but eventually everything can be simply thrown away. All I needed was myself and God. Actually myself for God. Not any false God, but the Creator God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the God of Israel.

Prayer.

Okay, I can't stand all this "false" god crap, that was all done by the catholic church to breed fear of damnation if people didn't agree, "god" is "god" no matter what name you call it by! Isn't it funny how Muslims believe in one "god" Jews believe in one "god" and Christians believe in one "god" but none of them can agree that it's the same "god"??? All because of marketing and power, that's what religion brings to the world: Greed! No greater tool has ever been used for greed than religion! Hell just look at the Vatican if you don't believe that!

Maybe one day you will all wake up and realize that you are all "praying" to the same "god" and it really isn't gonna care what name you call it by! You'll be lucky if it doesn't bring down it's wrath on you for being idiots the whole time and arguing symantics about its name! lol.... you religious people always make me laugh! I don't think I'll ever understand...:dunno:

But this is just my :0.02:

[DontBeAfraid]

Well I'd say you weren't a very good Wiccan And I would say that goldmoon isnt a very good LIAR! Lying about EVER being a wiccan makes baby cheesewiz cry goldmoon.

[olddragon]

All I needed was myself and God.

One day you will realize that all you need is yourself.

[Goldmoon]

These guys are hilarious...

[Assassin X]

This is why debating is pointless. Everyone thinks their view is right and everyone has to have the last word since after all they are right. Be like me and be smart enough to walk away without having to say anything else. I agree to disagree on somethings and move on.

[iulian28ti]

Jesus demonstrated with symbolism in order to stimulate the mind into waking up to the realities, possibilities and oportunities for a better World.

I have been saying I am the Messiah of the Bible for many years and only a few people have understood me.


The only problem is.... After resurrecting, jesus left to heaven, yet you stay.
You are not jesus.

[Jake99]

The only problem is.... After resurrecting, jesus left to heaven, yet you stay.
You are not jesus.

I am back from the right hand of the father after ascending and descending from his presense. It is all symbolic just like the entire Bible and the crucifixion. I acted out the same story as Jesus lived and I am back to tell about it.

[proffett]

I am back from the right hand of the father after ascending and descending from his presense. It is all symbolic just like the entire Bible and the crucifixion. I acted out the same story as Jesus lived and I am back to tell about it.

AYE!! I say, the great (and beautiful) Proffettess has had a vision, a realization of sorts.

Listen as I proclaim his glory. Angels will sing songs of the Holy Patisserie God!!

Jake is the Messiah, for we have verbally crucified him time and again and yet he coninues to exist!!

All hail the King of Croisants and the lord of Lemon Meringue.

/ patronization.

Now.. who says we break out the nails and planks and try the literal interpretation??