A big shout out to all you lost souls... [Archive]

autryn2

Mar 12th, 2004, 8:44 AM

Dutchie, I posted the question before leaving from work (I got stuff to do at home too).

D.B.A. Proof is a thing that is the opposite of faith. If there was conclusive, unshakeable proof, where would the need for faith be? What would it profit you to have faith if you were already given the proof in advance? Its like buying a car or winning a starting spot on a team... if its given to you, what have YOU done? (nothing).

LOTRfan: The garden of eden was perfect until man (and woman) made it different by their decisions. Also, your responses seem to imply that in your perfect world we (all of us) should have no responsibility for our actions. Why??? We're either beloved or not based on what WE do... that's fair, isn't it???

M.S.M.: Don't worry, you're not the first to insult Jesus...

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37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
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You REALLY must not believe! For myself, I'd be afraid to declare against Jesus (and therefore God Himself) in such an insulting manner. God sends a gift to you... a chance for you to be saved, and you spit in His eye. You may think that I'm typing this with anger against you but I'm not (I promise). I'm typing with a sense of dread (for you)... you see, you haven't insulted God with your mockery.... you've insulted yourself. There will come a time when you will look back on this and be ashamed. (no, I'm not shocked)

No doubt my response will inspire many of you to reply with "where's all the Christian love and forgivness???" or something similar... (it amazes me how you people look for a loophole and come up with that crap, as if because God offers forgiveness for sins to those who have faith and repent then you should have a free ride after turning your back on God... it doesn't work that way). We're responsible for our actions. Thinking otherwise is the delusion.

prezhorusin04

Mar 12th, 2004, 10:30 AM

I want to respond, but am not going to..Only with this..
Obviously, someone was very inspired by "The Passion"

i knew this thread wasn't for me, when it started in the condescending manner of "A message to all Lost souls"..
You're certainly not the judge of our souls..Nor a fictional Jesus figure..i could literally post 50 pages of info showing you, telling you things, that SHOULD seriously make you question your "faith", but i don't want to get into that.. :bs:

prezhorusin04

Mar 12th, 2004, 10:43 AM

From:
www.davidicke.com

"It is evident that there was no single historical person upon whom the Christian religion was founded, and that "Jesus Christ" is a compilation of legends, heroes, gods and godmen. There is not adequate room here to go into detail about each god or godman that contributed to the formation of the Jewish Jesus character; suffice it to say that there is plenty of documentation to show that this issue is not a question of "faith" or "belief." The truth is that during the era this character supposedly lived there was an extensive library at Alexandria and an incredibly nimble brotherhood network that stretched from Europe to China, and this information network had access to numerous manuscripts that told the same narrative portrayed in the New Testament with different place names and ethnicity for the characters. In actuality, the legend of Jesus nearly identically parallels the story of Krishna, for example, even in detail, as was presented by noted mythologist and scholar Gerald Massey over 100 years ago, as well as by Rev. Robert Taylor 160 years ago, among others. The Krishna tale as told in the Hindu Vedas has been dated to at least as far back as 1400 B.C.E.33 The same can be said of the well-woven Horus mythos, which also is practically identical, in detail, to the Jesus story, but which predates the Christian version by thousands of years.

The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed.

Adad of Assyria
Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules" and Zeus of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat of Siam
Hesus of the Druids
Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character
Indra of Tibet/India
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Mithra of Persia
Odin of the Scandinavians
Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple )
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Bilingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of the Bonzes

The Major Players

Buddha
Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.

The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."
He was of royal descent.
He crushed a serpent's head.
He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
He was transfigured on a mount.
Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.
He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd", the "Carpenter", the "Infinite and Everlasting."
He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."

Horus of Egypt
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one" .The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys" .
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child"- and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions

Mithra, Sungod of Persia
The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

Krishna of India
The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna.

Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One")
His father was a carpenter.
His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
He was of royal descent.
He was baptized in the River Ganges.
He worked miracles and wonders.
He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
"He lived poor and he loved the poor."
He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

prezhorusin04

Mar 12th, 2004, 10:45 AM

Prometheus of Greece
The Greek god Prometheus has been claimed to have come from Egypt, but his drama took place in the Caucasus mountains. Prometheus shares a number of striking similarities with the Christ character.

Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.
He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
He was called the Logos or Word.
Five centuries before the Christian era, esteemed Greek poet Aeschylus wrote Prometheus Bound, which, according to Taylor, was presented in the theater in Athens. Taylor claims that in the play Prometheus is crucified "on a fatal tree" and the sky goes dark:

"The darkness which closed the scene on the suffering Prometheus, was easily exhibited on the stage, by putting out the lamps; but when the tragedy was to become history, and the fiction to be turned into fact, the lamp of day could not be so easily disposed of. Nor can it be denied that the miraculous darkness which the Evangelists so solemnly declare to have attended the crucifixion of Christ, labours under precisely the same fatality of an absolute and total want of evidence."

Tradition holds that Prometheus was crucified on a rock, yet some sources have opined that legend also held he was crucified on a tree and that Christians muddled the story and/or mutilated the text, as they did with the works of so many ancient authors. In any case, the sun hiding in darkness parallels the Christian fable of the darkness descending when Jesus was crucified. This remarkable occurrence is not recorded in history but is only explainable within the Mythos and as part of a recurring play.

The Creation of a Myth
The Christians went on a censorship rampage that led to the virtual illiteracy of the ancient world and ensured that their secret would be hidden from the masses, but the scholars of other schools/sects never gave up their arguments against the historicizing of a very ancient mythological creature. We have lost the arguments of these learned dissenters because the Christians destroyed any traces of their works. Nonetheless, the Christians preserved the contentions of their detractors through the Christians' own refutations.

For example, early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you." Interestingly, a previously strident believer and defender of the faith, Tertullian later renounced Christianity.

The "Son" of God is the "Sun" of God
The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the "Mythos," as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th ("Christmas"). This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":

The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
Contrary to popular belief, the ancients were not an ignorant and superstitious lot who actually believed their deities to be literal characters. Indeed, this slanderous propaganda has been part of the conspiracy to make the ancients appear as if they were truly the dark and dumb rabble that was in need of the "light of Jesus." The reality is that the ancients were no less advanced in their morals and spiritual practices, and in many cases were far more advanced, than the Christians in their own supposed morality and ideology, which, in its very attempt at historicity, is in actuality a degradation of the ancient Mythos. Indeed, unlike the "superior" Christians, the true intelligentsia amongst the ancients were well aware that their gods were astronomical and atmospheric in nature. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle surely knew that Zeus, the sky god father figure who migrated to Greece from India and/or Egypt, was never a real person, despite the fact that the Greeks have designated on Crete both a birth cave and a death cave of Zeus. In addition, all over the world are to be found sites where this god or that allegedly was born, walked, suffered, died, etc., a common and unremarkable occurrence that is not monopolized by, and did not originate with, Christianity."

DontBeAfraid

Mar 12th, 2004, 11:09 AM

You accepted the story of jesus as truth autryn, and I dont know why. I have faith that my gameboy will start if I put new batteries in it and switch the power button.... I dont KNOW for certain that it will but I have faith that it will because it ALWAYS does. I have faith that if I put a drink in the fridge for a few hours it will be cold when I get it out, I dont KNOW it will be cold but I have faith that it will be sinse it always is. I cant have faith in something that hasnt proven itself.

By your logic though you could just as easily have your kind of 'faith' in anything. Were you born a christian? Are you a born again christian? If so what were you prior?

LOL prez..... the demons wouldnt let you let it go. :Bdevil:

Chris4334

Mar 12th, 2004, 12:47 PM

should have no responsibility for our actions

The worst thing we can do on this planet, theoretically, is kill someone. But since we all have immortal souls according to Christianity, what's the big deal about supposed "sin"? Nothing on this planet is worth a dime: everything that matters is in heaven. Why does someone deserve an eternity of suffering for "killing" someone? All they've done is hurried that person on to the next world.

Now don't you all go and kill someone now! I still think murder is wrong, but not for the selfish reason, implied in Christianity, of avoiding sin (and therefore assuring my place in heaven.)

I believe there is something after this life - maybe another life here? - but I refuse the position of the Bible. We're here to learn as far as I'm concerned. Someone who commits murder is certainly going to learn something in the end. I don't presume to know anything about the "end", but if I die and find out God is sending people to hell, I will protest. I would rather go to hell for eternity than remain in heaven, knowing countless masses of people are suffering because of what they did (and probably regret).

RavenWhitefang

Mar 12th, 2004, 2:42 PM

""if absolute power corrupts absolutely, what about god?""

lotrfan55345

Mar 12th, 2004, 3:02 PM

I like Herbal Essences shampoo.

Edge

Mar 12th, 2004, 4:35 PM

Dutchie, I posted the question before leaving from work (I got stuff to do at home too).

M.S.M.: Don't worry, you're not the first to insult Jesus...

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1.You REALLY must not believe! For myself, I'd be afraid to declare against Jesus (and therefore God Himself) in such an insulting manner. God sends a gift to you... a chance for you to be saved, and you spit in His eye.

2.You may think that I'm typing this with anger against you but I'm not (I promise). I'm typing with a sense of dread (for you)... you see, you haven't insulted God with your mockery.... you've insulted yourself.

3.There will come a time when you will look back on this and be ashamed. (no, I'm not shocked)

4.We're responsible for our actions. Thinking otherwise is the delusion.

Well this is my simple reply.

1. Your right there I REALLY do not believe because that is due to the lack of proof and the actions of organised religion over the past 4000 years of existance. Also I'd more likely to do other things to his non-existant eye if I had a chance (and if It actually existed).

2. First off there isn't any anger in that post of yours. Secondly by insulting something which (in my mind at least) doesn't exist I'm insulting myself? Thats like saying that because someone hates Dodos, they hate themselves. See where I'm going with this one?

3. I doubt it, especially given my taste in humour.

4. Are you trying to say that we have no free will of our own, that we merely react to the situation around us? Or are you saying that we don't really think and that proof is irelevant?

Also Dutchie I was only offering to save you the effort (and replace them with simlar product placement type adds minus the gore).

And yay we have simlies again!

:evbat:

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 12th, 2004, 7:36 PM

Because the proof for your brand of god is just as lacking as the proof for every other brand of god that humans have worshipped.
DBA the proof of the existence of God is right in front of us and in fact it is us.

D.B.A. Proof is a thing that is the opposite of faith. If there was conclusive, unshakeable proof, where would the need for faith be? What would it profit you to have faith if you were already given the proof in advance? Its like buying a car or winning a starting spot on a team... if its given to you, what have YOU done? (nothing).
This is a cop out!
There is more evidence of the existence of God, than there is of the absence of God.
Faith is what you do after your initial understanding and proof.

If he was perfect; how does imperfection (us+devil) come from total perfection?
What perfectly posed questions
Let us first clear up a few misconceptions to do with the devil, the devil is not some mysterious hidden creature that goes around enticing people to do evil; The only force that comes into play on us is our natural body and it's desires. We were created two fold physical and spiritual, it is our spiritual nature that must overcome the physical so that we can blossom to the greatness that awaits us. If God was not perfect, why would we strive to become like him?

Also, why is there a place with utter imperfection(hell) in his creation?
Hell is a place were we can become aware of how much greater and more desirable it is to be with the ones that we love. It is like a time out for those that do not want to play nice!

Also, why would he send his beloved creations (us) to hell? Wouldn't he forgive us and absorb our "evil" with his perfection?
The big picture here comes to our freewill, we have to want to be perfect.

It is time to use logic reason and understanding to know God and not all of this confusion, fear and misconception.

The first thing that we have to know in order to recognize God is what God looks like, since God is not a physical being like you and I we need to recognize the attributes of God. Since we know that we are imperfect and God is perfect and we were created in the likeness of God. We must examine ourselves for our imperfections or something that is easier, examine others for their imperfections. As we mature it is easier and easier to see the imperfections of others, it is the awareness of these imperfections that prove that perfection is possible. For if we did not believe that perfection was possible then we would see and recognize people as just being who they are without having any expectation of perfection.
God is perfect in regards to Love, generosity, kindness, patience, honesty, etc. Thus it is that true followers or servants of God can be recognized by their high quality of perfections in these areas and immature or false adherents can be recognized by their wickedness and opposite representation or lack of these qualities.

VegasRonin

Mar 13th, 2004, 1:26 AM

Please don't attempt to start a debate either please, these are just my views, no matter how flawed they may seem to you
Whoa keratas! If you don't want to debate your views, then you're definitely in the wrong place. We debate and argue for entertainment around these parts. This community is agnostic, Atheist, Christian,Jewish,Pagan, and sometimes Muslim. The Muslims haven't stuck it out so far. :smokin:
As I've stated before, the closest label for me is Agnostic. This doesn't totally describe me either. I believe in a God but nothing like any organized religion has described. Heaven and Hell doesn't fit into anything I believe either, but an afterlife does. I don't frown on Mel Gibson for making money off of a Religion. Don't see the movie if you don't want to. :devsmoke: I do find offensive (Mildy) any depiction of a good person (Real or not) in a negative manner but will defend your right to do so. As for my views? They change periodically. God, Satan, Nature, and or evolution isn't done with me yet. :mad:

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 13th, 2004, 12:44 PM

Whoa keratas! If you don't want to debate your views, then you're definitely in the wrong place. We debate and argue for entertainment around these parts. This community is agnostic, Atheist, Christian,Jewish,Pagan, and sometimes Muslim. The Muslims haven't stuck it out so far.
VR, I am hurt that you did not include me in your list. I guess that I will have to take a step back on God's timeline and start expounding upon the teachings of Mohamed. Since Heaven and Hell have become one of the central issues of conversation and debate let us start there and then maybe we can go into biological science and astronomy. Before I start though I would like everyone to be aware that Mohamed was illiterate, thus lacking the ability to either read or write.
He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a
thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with
bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of
the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as
quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe
without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will
fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the
bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming
from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in
interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see
themselves safe.

They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast
with us and also do good deeds with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell)
anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' Allah
will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find
some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs.
So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and
Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find
faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will
recognize and return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in
whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so
they will take out all those whom they will recognize."

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 9)

The words revealed to Mohamed clearly show that Hell is a physical place or is it more a place within our own understanding that is created by our choices.
The bridge that is spoken about above is a bridge of understanding and recognition. It is the very bridge that the Pharisees in the time of
Christ were not able to crossover, as was the case with the Ummayds in the time of Mohamed. It is the same bridge that continues to ravage humanity and not allow people to bridge the gap between the knowledge of men and the knowledge of God. Many people have crossed over that bridge and work diligently to pull people out of the fires of Hell but there own knowledge and understanding keep them from accepting the out reached hand. We all can see and recognize the degradation and depravity of the world around us but fail to recognize our role in fanning the flames or quenching the fire. Many believe that they are going to escape(rapture) and so it does not matter what they do, others feel helpless and powerless and have given up. Then there are those that have been given clear concise instructions, the blueprint for the nation of man, the prescription to heal the infirmities of humanity. A plan written and revealed by God.
How is it possible to know that it was revealed by God and not the imagination of man?
The most obvious is that it is spoken of and understood by every person on the face of the earth. This is quite a statement to make but given time I can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt. I can show you based upon what is written upon your heart and mind.
I can show you based upon the teachings of Noah and the aboriginal peoples of the world.
I can show you based upon the teachings of Moses and the Jewish traditions
The teachings of Christ and Christianity
The words revealed to Mohamed and Islamic Tradition
The teachings of Buddha and Buddhist Tradition
The teachings of Krishna and Hinduism
The teachings of Zoroaster
The Mayans, The Egyptians, The Greeks, The Romans and the Ashanti Traditions
It is based upon logic understanding and reason, there is no blind adherence.
We were given the gifts of logic and reason and intelligence to be able to see and understand the things of this world as well as all the other worlds of God.
We are no longer in darkness, the dark ages ended when God came and turned on the light and delivered those that were captive unto freedom. The oppression of the world is being eliminated but there is still lots of work to be done to improve and get a handle on the conditions of the world. Humanity still has some tough days ahead and there is consequences for poor management of the earth and failure to deal with the conditions that we have created. Everything that has happened and is about to happen will have an affect of eliminating barriers of all types so that mankind can work together to eliminate the problems that had the potential of Destroying us all.

lazserus

Mar 13th, 2004, 2:03 PM

Time for logic to trample through this party. Where to even begin.

out to all you lost souls...
First of all, you don't gain respect by opening your entire argument with insults. That's the biggest problem people have with Christians - arrogance. They're so caught up in the whole "I'm right, everyone else is dead wrong" concept no one can take them seriously or respectfully. One of the most major Christian contradictions is intolerance/tolerance. Christians are some of the most intolerant people (minus fanatical Muslims) the world has seen yet they teach tolerance in their own holy book. You will never understand the opposing theists if you can't get past your own arrogance.

This perfect God concept. This is completely absurd. The Christian belief in a perfect God comes with so many loop holes and contradictions that new Christians are bred ignorant. Perfection is not a real aspect, but a fantastical aspect that is different within each person. Some of the characteristics one may think someone is perfect could be atrocities to another. This has to do with our idea of free will, which contradicts Christian mythology. Perfection is a dynamic characteristic that lies within the eye of the beholder. Autryn's idea of perfect could be complete bullshit to someone like DBA or myself. You can't use an arbitrary adjective to describe something with such precision.

The garden of eden was perfect until man (and woman) made it different by their decisions.
You're not going to get anyone's attention by bringing fables in to support your ideals. Adam and Eve were not real beings, nor did anything in that story really happen. The story is designed to be a moral story, not an exact interpretation of what truly happened. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden wasn't designed to explain man's origins.

The last creates an ongoing problem with Christians. They don't know a damned thing about their own theology. They follow so strictly what a book says, which has been altered an unimaginable amount of times throughout history, with out even knowing the history of the book itself. That's why there are now so many fundamentalists running around thinking the world is just 10,000 years old and there was actually an ark that saved every species on the planet. You can be religious with out being stupid. Literal interpretations are for people who can't think for themselves.

Also, your responses seem to imply that in your perfect world we (all of us) should have no responsibility for our actions.
Wow, and the logic slips right through the cracks on this one. YES, IN A PERFECT WORLD WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS. In a perfect world people wouldn't do wrong so there is no responsibility needed. However, that world would have to be absent of all emotion. Once again, perfection is arbitrary and can never be achieved in its true definition.

DBA the proof of the existence of God is right in front of us and in fact it is us.
This would be a good sentence if the word "proof" wasn't used. "Support" would be a better word. Everything you see may support the existence of God for you, however the very fact that God doesn't NEED to exist for what we see to happen supports (not proves) the idea that there is no God. God is not necessary for things to happen. As long as you can believe that and still believe in God, you can be classified as a rational theologian.

There is more evidence of the existence of God, than there is of the absence of God.
This is not true by any means. If this were true, there wouldn't be a decreasing Christian population and a raising atheist/agnostic population. My previous response explains this. This proof is proof within yourself.

Everyone needs to really think about what they think on this topic and why they think those things. No one has the right to tell another person they are wrong or even doomed for believing in something. A theist has every right to believe in what he or she chooses, whether it be in a God or in a piece of bark, or even not to believe in anything at all. That's the problem with organized religion. They're so caught up in trying to make everyone believe in what they think is the right way to believe instead of practicing what they preach - free will. How is it my free will if you're cramming your religion down my throat and telling everyone that your way is the right way. Stop contradicting yourselves - If God gave mankind free will, why is the religious man so caught up in denying it to his fellow man? For you to say we have free will, but then say we haven't a choice you put yourself in a ridiculous situation. If God gave us free will, then isn't it up to us to decide for ourselves? Not you, not God. Us. We decide for ourselves. If God doesn't like our decision, then he shouldn't have given us the freedom to make that decision.

By the way, I'm not atheist.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 13th, 2004, 3:26 PM

Hello Lazserus,
I truly appreciate the depth of your replies and the passion of your arguement.

Time for logic to trample through this party. Where to even begin.

This perfect God concept. This is completely absurd. The Christian belief in a perfect God comes with so many loop holes and contradictions that new Christians are bred ignorant. Perfection is not a real aspect, but a fantastical aspect that is different within each person. Some of the characteristics one may think someone is perfect could be atrocities to another. This has to do with our idea of free will, which contradicts Christian mythology. Perfection is a dynamic characteristic that lies within the eye of the beholder. Autryn's idea of perfect could be complete bullshit to someone like DBA or myself. You can't use an arbitrary adjective to describe something with such precision.
Your explanation of the varieties of perfection is if I can put it in familiar terms perfect. To explain so well the complexities of perfection and realize the variations that exist speaks volumes of the complexity of God. This is proof within itself and yet you recognize it not.

This would be a good sentence if the word "proof" wasn't used. "Support" would be a better word. Everything you see may support the existence of God for you, however the very fact that God doesn't NEED to exist for what we see to happen supports (not proves) the idea that there is no God. God is not necessary for things to happen. As long as you can believe that and still believe in God, you can be classified as a rational theologian.

This is not true by any means. If this were true, there wouldn't be a decreasing Christian population and a raising atheist/agnostic population. My previous response explains this. This proof is proof within yourself.
The decreasing Christian populations are a proof of God for the exact reasons that you have stated. People fail to see God within Christianity and refuse to follow a religion based on adherence to defunct laws and the understanding of Men.

Everyone needs to really think about what they think on this topic and why they think those things. No one has the right to tell another person they are wrong or even doomed for believing in something. A theist has every right to believe in what he or she chooses, whether it be in a God or in a piece of bark, or even not to believe in anything at all. That's the problem with organized religion. They're so caught up in trying to make everyone believe in what they think is the right way to believe instead of practicing what they preach - free will. How is it my free will if you're cramming your religion down my throat and telling everyone that your way is the right way. Stop contradicting yourselves - If God gave mankind free will, why is the religious man so caught up in denying it to his fellow man? For you to say we have free will, but then say we haven't a choice you put yourself in a ridiculous situation. If God gave us free will, then isn't it up to us to decide for ourselves? Not you, not God. Us. We decide for ourselves. If God doesn't like our decision, then he shouldn't have given us the freedom to make that decision.
Wow Laz,
That is quite some expression coming through in your words, I get the feeling that you think that we are still in the dark ages. I can understand your hostility to wards intolerance of any kind but I think this was just a discussion about the representation of Heaven and Hell.
As to the question of freewill, we have more freewill than we are aware and less freewill than we think. Life is like a huge labyrinth and were we end up is based upon the directions that we take and the choices that we make, the person that seeks understanding will attain unto a place of understanding, the person that seeks conformity will attain unto a place of conformity, the person that seek compassion will attain unto a place of compassion and the on that seeks unto a life of intolerance will attain unto intolerance. We are all going to leave this physical plane with the qualities that we acquire here and it is important to help others along the path with words of encouragement but of all our actions must speak louder than our words.

David

lazserus

Mar 13th, 2004, 4:16 PM

I truly appreciate the depth of your replies and the passion of your arguement.
Thank you. As do I appreciate yours.

Your explanation of the varieties of perfection is if I can put it in familiar terms perfect. To explain so well the complexities of perfection and realize the variations that exist speaks volumes of the complexity of God.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It speaks volumes of the complexity of my mind. Free will, remember? God didn't think this for me, I decided on this alone. Perfection is just a word. An individual's conception of perfection is imagination, not divinity.

The decreasing Christian populations are a proof of God for the exact reasons that you have stated.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying people convert to Islam from Christianity, or to Buddhism (which is Godless) because of Christian flaws. There are more and more atheists and agnostics than there were before. I'm not saying that this debunks theology, I'm just saying that your reasoning of proof didn't hold water.

I get the feeling that you think that we are still in the dark ages.
Christians are just as intolerant today as they were 1000 years ago. The difference is that society has evolved to no longer allow stake burnings and the likes. I'm not saying every individual Christian is an intolerant bigot. I'm saying Christianity as a whole is filled with bigotry - think about what's taught to the followers. Christianity isn't the dominant religion of the world because it's the right path, it's because the Christians conquered. If the Muslims would have done the same (not only that, but were willing to change with time) they would be the dominant religion. I'm not blaming God for the choices man made, I blame man for believing his path is more righteous than the other. Organized religion is a disease, festering in the bowels of human society and it will be man's ultimate demise.

Men need to not follow blindly with out questioning the men before them. The teachings of free will should be adhered to and people should decide for themselves by using their own eyes and ears, just like I think you do. I've seen a lot of your ideas and I believe they're all original and that you came to those conclusions by having an open mind and making your own decisions of what you believe. None of your thoughts presented on this forum (at least how interpret them) appear to be tainted by the societal urge to conform.

I can understand your hostility to wards intolerance of any kind but I think this was just a discussion about the representation of Heaven and Hell.
The way the original post was presented seems to inquire how atheists or agnostics can be so blind to not recognize God. It's a very Gnostic question.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 13th, 2004, 5:05 PM

Thank-you Laz for your kind remarks,

I really want to reiterate the comments that I was making in regards to Christianity. You are correct in all of your comments and I agree that people are moving away from Christianity in search of God. That does not mean that they are attaching themselves to other recognized groups but are waiting to see God with their own eyes. They are waiting to be harvested by God himself and not a man made version of God but God manifest in man.

I've seen a lot of your ideas and I believe they're all original and that you came to those conclusions by having an open mind and making your own decisions of what you believe. None of your thoughts presented on this forum (at least how interpret them) appear to be tainted by the societal urge to conform.
I wish that I could say that these Ideas were original and that they are mine, they have been around since even before man came into existence. They are the same that was revealed to Adam, Noah, Moses and all the other manifestations of God. They are mine because of my conformity to the will of God and my endless love to know the truth. The greatest gift that I was given was the ability to listen and use logic and reason to understand what was presented. I came to an understanding years ago that everything has a purpose and a reason for it's existence and if you search long enough and hard enough the reason will be revealed to you.

VegasRonin

Mar 13th, 2004, 6:28 PM

Somewhere down the line, I missed the fact that Godsgifttomankind is Muslim. So the community is broader than I thought. Which reinforces my original point. :respect:

keratas

Mar 13th, 2004, 7:13 PM

In hindsight, my 'no debating' comment seems totally ridiculous, but I did do it as I have been braindead the last few days and my arguments would have holes like swiss cheese.

evilwill

Mar 13th, 2004, 7:15 PM

these Ideas were original and that they are mine, they have been around since even before man came into existence.

So where do you propose these ideas came from?

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 13th, 2004, 8:19 PM

Somewhere down the line, I missed the fact that Godsgifttomankind is Muslim. So the community is broader than I thought. Which reinforces my original point.
Sorry VR to confuse you but the Muslims, consider me as an offense to their understanding because I am a Bahai.

So where do you propose these ideas came from?
They came from God through his mouth piece Baha'u'llah

The point is that they are not new but are being reintroduced because mankind continues to misrepresent the word of God that has been given to them in the past. The conspiracy that prez is showing everyone in regards to Christ is the conspiracy of God to try and keep mankind on the true path and mankind's continued desire to follow their own desires.

VegasRonin

Mar 13th, 2004, 8:26 PM

Uh okay, this is my last correction. :Blbl: There's a Bahai temple not too far away from me. I've often wondered what it was? I have no idea about the faith.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 13th, 2004, 8:43 PM

Uh okay, this is my last correction. :Blbl: There's a Bahai temple not too far away from me. I've often wondered what it was? I have no idea about the faith.
I appreciate your effort in correction
The basics
Oneness of God - we all worship the same God
Oneness of Religion - all comes from the same God
Oneness of Mankind - we are all the children of God
Equality of Women and Men
Harmony of Science and Religion - they are two fingers of the same hand
INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE TRUTH - there is no clergy

VegasRonin

Mar 13th, 2004, 9:37 PM

Sounds cool. I could live with those, except one but I'll keep my mouth shut on that. :devsmoke:

Chris4334

Mar 14th, 2004, 11:33 AM

Harmony of Science and Religion - they are two fingers of the same hand

Try suggesting that one to an Iranian woman.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 14th, 2004, 4:46 PM

Try suggesting that one to an Iranian woman.

Hello Chris,
Please clarify your remarks as it was an Iranian woman that clarified many of these things for me. I have a great admiration for Iranian culture and given time Iran will be transformed from what you see of it today.

lazserus

Mar 14th, 2004, 11:50 PM

Hello Chris,
Please clarify your remarks as it was an Iranian woman that clarified many of these things for me. I have a great admiration for Iranian culture and given time Iran will be transformed from what you see of it today.
You're on the breach of political heresy here. Iran isn't puppies and roses. It's pretty messy there.

VegasRonin

Mar 15th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Yeah it is Laz but I think she refering to the huge pro-west movement that is taking shape amongst the youth. If they can make to mature adulthood, the prospect of real change is possible.

Chris4334

Mar 15th, 2004, 5:13 AM

Please clarify your remarks as it was an Iranian woman that clarified many of these things for me. I have a great admiration for Iranian culture and given time Iran will be transformed from what you see of it today.

I guess I'm not so trusting in progess as you are.

Religion and science = Church and State. No matter how harmonious they are, they must remain apart. Period.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 15th, 2004, 10:00 AM

You're on the breach of political heresy here. Iran isn't puppies and roses. It's pretty messy there.
What country is not messy?
The difference with Iran is that for the last 160 years the leadership has been suppressing and attempting to annihilate any one with these ideals. The selfless devotion to these standards and the refusal to be intimidated by an oppressive leadership has made quite an impression on the peoples of Islam. The majority of the people are ready for a change, it a minority that is attempting to maintain old standards. The people have lived what they do not want and seen the example of what they do want and once the wave begins it will move across like an earthquake shaking and destroying the foundations of the old ways and raising up a new standard which has been covered by the dirt of oppression.

Yeah it is Laz but I think he is referring to the huge pro-west movement that is taking shape amongst the youth. If they can make it to mature adulthood, the prospect of real change is possible.
What you see is not a pro-west movement but a pro-liberty movement, there is a great difference.

I guess I'm not so trusting in progress as you are.

Religion and science = Church and State. No matter how harmonious they are, they must remain apart. Period.
There is faith involved with this but you have to remember that my mind was educated in the scientific arena and I base everything on logic, reason and understanding. I trust because I have a clear road map of the progress of Humanity, this has nothing to do with what men do. We can look all over the world to see what men are doing, they follow their own natural desires they are as predictable as my dog. It is a matter of understanding that we learn from our mistakes, no matter how painful those mistakes may be, we also learn from the example of the people around us. The examples of leadership that most of us see cause us some discomfort, we know and understand that there are better ways to lead but few of us take the step to put in practice the things that we know in our hearts are right. The old way was to lead by command while we know that we need to lead by example. To be a great leader you have to be able to look after the lowest man and yet the systems that we see look after the people at the top. Example has shown us that removing the leadership creates chaos, even in the political arena. Therefore the changes that need to happen are individual because it is a government of the people. When we move to change the world will change around us, it takes time and patience.
The religion and science as well as the church and state problems are all based around fundamental adherence to the letter of the Law and are prevalent in every walk of life. If you are driving along in your car in a 55mph zone and get pulled over for doing 56mph is that justice or just intolerance?
Intolerance is a characteristic of men and is something that we all need to overcome, we are taught to do or say things in a certain way if someone does things differently that bothers us and we react to it. The true is that people see the example better than they hear it and so bringing up differences only causes contention but being who you are is more attractive. Good people are manifestations of goodness and not people that enforce the Law and make people conform to standards that they themselves are not willing to adhere to. Faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds and it is this spirit that is talked about when looking at religion and science, it is using your good judgment to advance science that is not going to destroy us and our environment as well as using the logic and reason of science to explain things rather than trusting in vain imaginations or superstitions. Science is a wonderful gift and we must use it to the fullest to explain everything in the world around us including understanding the force that gives us our existence which most people recognize as God. It can be quantified and understood in the same way that that we look at Gravity or Light. It is only confusion and ignorance that keep us from recognizing the truth of things.

VegasRonin

Mar 15th, 2004, 8:43 PM

What you see is not a pro-west movement but a pro-liberty movement, there is a great difference. I beg to differ. If left to their own devices, with no example from the West. Then they continue the way they have for thousands of years.

lazserus

Mar 15th, 2004, 9:20 PM

I'm with VR on this. Western culture has always been more progressive.

dutchie

Mar 16th, 2004, 9:25 AM

Donsun

Mar 16th, 2004, 12:15 PM

I'll have what Dutchies having and make it a double! :toast:

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 16th, 2004, 3:27 PM

You'll have to help me out here, GGTM. Bahai... Is that a bit like Sufi? We have a Sufi temple in the village of Katwijk, on the coast.

Isn't it true that both of these religions want to combine all faiths into 1 universal belief, where there is only one God, and we're all his (or her) kids? I'd say it's a bit of an opportunistic faith: just combine all the good stuff from a load of churches and mold that into something universally applicable. What exactly is then God?!? It's nothing more than a form some of us need to fill out to get through life and hopefully into a blissful afterlife... God is really the make-up on the face of eternity, while eternity is nothing more than the period between two big bangs...
Hey Dutchie those is big words but I did get a bang out of them,

At this moment I can not answer your Sufi question but I can say that every Religion of the past has taught of a time when all of humanity would be united under one banner and that would be God.
In Judaism and Christianity it is the King of Kings, the Lord of hosts
In Buddhism it is Maitreya Buddha
In Hinduism it is the new incarnation of Krishna
In Zorastrianism the advent of 'Shah-Bahram'
The message is not a new message, and while most people see it as a combination of old teachings this is not the case. It is in reality the very same message that was given to everyone of the prophets of the past. The only difference between what was revealed in the past and what has been revealed in this day is the maturity of Humanity. Humanity has lived through the growth stages that any man sees in their life time. Birth, Infancy, Adolescence and finally maturity. We are just coming out of the dark ages of Adolescence and moving into the Age of enlightenment. You can ask just about anyone and they will tell you we are in a special time. Christianity is praying everyday for the return of Christ and for the issuing in of God's Kingdom when every tongue confess and every knee shall bow.

Eternity is just that Eternity and Big Bangs are spread through out eternity.

In reference to this physical world everything has a beginning and everything has an end but in order for us to exist there has to be a beginning without a beginning and an end without an end. Something that has no beginning and no end is known as a circle or a cycle. It exists perpetually with different time marks to differentiate and give reference, thus we will be celebrating spring a time of rebirth and a new beginning for the world around us. In the physical world there is thousands upon thousands of examples of the cyclical nature of life. If you knew where to look you could find just the same number of civilizations buried in the different layers of the earth. The same evidence that we are slowly uncovering on the outer periphery of the inhabited regions of the earth can also be found in greater abundance in the temperate zones. It is these areas that will be of great focus in the future as the earth is shaken and the plates shift and rise to reveal to Humanity the mysteries that are hidden there in.
Humanity has no idea what is happening in the world around us but the time is coming very soon, when every person will watch with amazement to see what will be revealed right before their eyes.

dutchie

Mar 17th, 2004, 3:07 AM

Humanity has no idea what is happening in the world around us but the time is coming very soon, when every person will watch with amazement to see what will be revealed right before their eyes.
Yeah, right. And what might that be, oh wise one?!?

(why is it that the religious ppl - and apparently it doesn't make any difference to what denomination they belong - always use this kind of swollen pathos lingo?!?)

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 17th, 2004, 6:38 AM

Thank-you Dutchie,

Yeah, right. And what might that be, oh wise one?!?

(why is it that the religious ppl - and apparently it doesn't make any difference to what denomination they belong - always use this kind of swollen pathos lingo?!?)
You are right I deserved that one.

It is far too easy to get caught up in the excitement, when I should be more sober and respectful to the people I am addressing but it just proves that I am human just like everyone else. I am not special, what is special is the knowledge and understanding that has been shown to me.
It is like a great physicist like Einstein, who labors for years to gain understanding on issues and then the wonder of his discovery falls on deaf ears.
The passion of the moment causes you to say things that take away from what you want to represent rather than assist.
I have been chastised for my indiscretion but it does not minimize the profoundness of my statement. It is not that people can not recognize what is happening, it is more that they are too distracted. It is like a pick pocket working a crowd, if you were to pay attention you would see and understand exactly what is happening but since there is so many distractions he works his trade.
The same can be said of the world today, this board is based upon the name of a great battle Armageddon and yet there are so many theories and understandings about that battle that the truth about it could be presented right in front of you and the chances of it being recognized is almost infinitesimal. This is due to the nature of man, if we look at the nature of a true scientist, we see someone that is presented a problem and goes about to try and prove it. Human nature is the exact opposite of this we approach things from the opposite point does what is presented agree with what I know and understand then if yes accept it, if no reject it. If that had been the approach of any of the great thinkers we would still be in the dark ages. Science is exploration, it is following something till you can not go any further and then back tracking and carrying on.
If I say to you I can explain the importance of this word, how it relates to our time, who the players are in the battle and what it means to us all. The automatic reaction is impossible, I don't know and understand this so anyone claiming to understand this is a fraud and a liar. In the meantime if it is your desire to mock my words without any understanding, I have a book to finish and then you will have the opportunity to pay for the words that you could have received for free.

dutchie

Mar 17th, 2004, 9:54 AM

Thank-you Dutchie,

You are right I deserved that one.

It is far too easy to get caught up in the excitement, when I should be more sober and respectful to the people I am addressing but it just proves that I am human just like everyone else. I am not special, what is special is the knowledge and understanding that has been shown to me.
It is like a great physicist like Einstein, who labors for years to gain understanding on issues and then the wonder of his discovery falls on deaf ears.
The passion of the moment causes you to say things that take away from what you want to represent rather than assist.
I have been chastised for my indiscretion but it does not minimize the profoundness of my statement. It is not that people can not recognize what is happening, it is more that they are too distracted. It is like a pick pocket working a crowd, if you were to pay attention you would see and understand exactly what is happening but since there is so many distractions he works his trade.
There. Now you're doing it again! That whole flap of text just to say: "Yeah you're right Dutchie, I got carried away. Let me switch to English now..."

The same can be said of the world today, this board is based upon the name of a great battle Armageddon and yet there are so many theories and understandings about that battle that the truth about it could be presented right in front of you and the chances of it being recognized is almost infinitesimal. This is due to the nature of man, if we look at the nature of a true scientist, we see someone that is presented a problem and goes about to try and prove it. Human nature is the exact opposite of this we approach things from the opposite point does what is presented agree with what I know and understand then if yes accept it, if no reject it. If that had been the approach of any of the great thinkers we would still be in the dark ages. Science is exploration, it is following something till you can not go any further and then back tracking and carrying on.That is vague to say the least. I take it that you mean: "scientists take an approach based on reasoning, while we should regard the matters concerning God with the heart".

If I say to you I can explain the importance of this word, how it relates to our time, who the players are in the battle and what it means to us all. The automatic reaction is impossible, I don't know and understand this so anyone claiming to understand this is a fraud and a liar. In the meantime if it is your desire to mock my words without any understanding, I have a book to finish and then you will have the opportunity to pay for the words that you could have received for free.Are you building in a safeguard towards me questioning your points of view? That's hardly in the spirit of this board, GGTM.
Finally: what is the point you are trying to make in this post in relation to previous posts?

lazserus

Mar 17th, 2004, 10:36 AM

if it is your desire to mock my words without any understanding, I have a book to finish and then you will have the opportunity to pay for the words that you could have received for free.
Ah, and the arrogance I so frequently mentioned steps in, once again. Religious folk always seem to put their feet in their mouth. There's no way they can have a logical conversation, because it always turns into a contest of arrogance. Religious people always think they know better and know more than those who aren't. However, their logic is always tainted by arrogance and "words of wisdom" written by men thousands of years ago.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 18th, 2004, 8:40 AM

Ah, and the arrogance I so frequently mentioned steps in, once again. Religious folk always seem to put their feet in their mouth. There's no way they can have a logical conversation, because it always turns into a contest of arrogance. Religious people always think they know better and know more than those who aren't. However, their logic is always tainted by arrogance and "words of wisdom" written by men thousands of years ago.
I do not believe that I am guilty of arrogance as much as a poorly finished sentence. What I was trying to say was please do not prejudge what I am presenting without first trying to get an understanding of were I am coming from.
We are all guilty of arrogance to one extent or another but I prefer to call it pride in the knowledge and understanding that we receive. Arrogance is when you close your ears and refuse to listen to any one else's point of view because you yours is the only answer, while clearly you are in error. The difference here is that myself just as you have studied hard to understand the world around us and are now presenting the things that we have learned. You have learned from countless number of great thinkers just as I have, men that span our history. My greatest understanding comes from one teacher, whom we know and recognize to be a manifestation of God. He lived in this age and through him God has revealed the truth of all things, it is through that same quickening spirit that man has made the huge advances that we see before us. Agnostics claim that God created the world and then abandoned it but I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that in fact God has not left us to our own devices to destroy the world but is in fact at work in the world to bring about his promised kingdom.
From the lord's prayer
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

I do not follow word attributed to men but those that have been revealed by God, the same God that all humanity worships, the God that gave us Christ as one of his prophets and the people took as their God, just as their ancestors had taken Baal as their God. It was Elijah that came and challenged the priest and prophets of Baal and conquered them on the mountain of God. It is in keeping with that spirit that the Battle of Armageddon is being fought. The physical battle was fought at the end of the first world war, a war which saw the fall of the oppressive kingdoms of the world and the decline of the fortunes of the Royal families. The battles that we see raging in the world are deadly but looking back at US history we see that it takes destructive power to eliminate repressive and controlling powers from within peoples hearts. The American Civil war was just such a deadly force but without that war the American people would not have changed their thinking and allowed people to be free to make their own choices.
It is sad that it takes such force to allow peoples to have freewill but that is the way of mankind when we follow our own desires.

dutchie

Mar 18th, 2004, 9:06 AM

My greatest understanding comes from one teacher, whom we know and recognize to be a manifestation of God. He lived in this age and through him God has revealed the truth of all things, it is through that same quickening spirit that man has made the huge advances that we see before us. And who might this manifestation of God be?!? And why didn't you mention his or her name right away?

Agnostics claim that God created the world and then abandoned it but I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that in fact God has not left us to our own devices to destroy the world but is in fact at work in the world to bring about his promised kingdom. :yeah: PROOF PROOF PROOF!!!!! And beyond a reasonable doubt above that!!! SHOW IT TO US!!!!!

I do not follow word attributed to men but those that have been revealed by God, the same God that all humanity worships, the God that gave us Christ as one of his prophets and the people took as their God, just as their ancestors had taken Baal as their God. It was Elijah that came and challenged the priest and prophets of Baal and conquered them on the mountain of God. It is in keeping with that spirit that the Battle of Armageddon is being fought. :dunno: you have me puzzled, here GGTM, I thought you were going to show us some proof, and in stead you start to write utter jibberish...

The physical battle was fought at the end of the first world war, a war which saw the fall of the oppressive kingdoms of the world and the decline of the fortunes of the Royal families. The battles that we see raging in the world are deadly but looking back at US history we see that it takes destructive power to eliminate repressive and controlling powers from within peoples hearts. The American Civil war was just such a deadly force but without that war the American people would not have changed their thinking and allowed people to be free to make their own choices. So? What relation does that statement have to the one before that?
It is sad that it takes such force to allow peoples to have freewill but that is the way of mankind when we follow our own desires.IMO the world would be a much better place if ppl followed their desires in stead of their leaders, their dogmatics and their fanatics...

Sad... Again I have not been convinced.... :ohmy:

DontBeAfraid

Mar 18th, 2004, 11:24 AM

Agnostics make no claims about the existence of any god.

I think you mean (deists) claim god made stuff and split.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 18th, 2004, 12:35 PM

And who might this manifestation of God be?!? And why didn't you mention his or her name right away?
The word Baha'i is an Arabic word and it means a follower of the Glory or a shortened version of a follower of Baha'u'llah - Baha meaning glory and Allah meaning God, thus the title is The Glory of God just as Christ means The Messiah.
Thus in saying that I am a Baha'i, I have mentioned it but now it is clearer.
PROOF PROOF PROOF!!!!! And beyond a reasonable doubt above that!!! SHOW IT TO US!!!!!
This is quite a challenge that you have made and it is possible to be done using logic reason and understanding. It can be quite complex and it can be quite simple it all depends on your point of reference. The best way to do this is through a field that is in you understanding and to elaborate based on your understanding and not elaborating on something that you have no knowledge of. In other words you present the challenge and I will explain it to you so that you can judge based on that and continue till your questions for the areas that can be used to explain all this are greater than you or I realize.

you have me puzzled, here GGTM, I thought you were going to show us some proof, and in stead you start to write utter jibberish...
This may not be a field that you understand and thus at this point it is of no use for us to discuss but for someone else, when they follow through and see the representations that are made and comprehend the final argument everything becomes clear. There again it is important to reference from the point of a subject that you understand and that is not gibberish to you.

So? What relation does that statement have to the one before that?
The point of all that I presented was to understand the importance of how all the events in the past one hundred and forty years have and continue to set the stage for the development of a organic cohesive global society. A society based upon individual importance and harmony and not based upon the dictates of any Human Leadership. This society can be compared to the human body where each organ is responsible for it self and the others that are around it and plays an integral part of the whole. When one organ does not function properly the whole body suffers. The individuals know and understand their responsibilities and respond based upon their hearts and not based on some oppressive leadership or corrupted power.

IMO the world would be a much better place if ppl followed their desires in stead of their leaders, their dogmatics and their fanatics...

Sad... Again I have not been convinced....
The changes are coming about so just such a thing can happen but it is based upon the heart and the soul. Desires can be a very derogatory term for children follow their desires and think little of the people around them but when we follow our heart, we do more for others and think less about our own selfish needs. We know how important family is and looking after our children, while in fact the world is just one big family that has suffered greatly because of the greed of the heads of the different households.

lazserus

Mar 18th, 2004, 9:01 PM

Sorry, guy. Quoting religious scripture is by no means any form of truth. It's biased and has no meaning outside the writer's own beliefs.

dutchie

Mar 19th, 2004, 1:08 AM

This may not be a field that you understand and thus at this point it is of no use for us to discuss but for someone else, when they follow through and see the representations that are made and comprehend the final argument everything becomes clear. There again it is important to reference from the point of a subject that you understand and that is not gibberish to you.

So now I'm stupid, eh?!? Too dim to see the marvelous truth behind your writings... Lazserus was right, you ARE arrogant... :wlink:

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 19th, 2004, 8:38 AM

So now I'm stupid, eh?!? Too dim to see the marvelous truth behind your writings... Lazserus was right, you ARE arrogant... :wlink:
Dutchie there was no reference in there to you being stupid, My comment was for you to pick a subject, for it is possible that biblical theology may not be a subject of interest to you. I could go through and explain things from a biblical stand point but if the Bible is gibberish to you then let us talk in your language. This just seems like a rational thing to do, pick a subject you know and understand and then you would see clearly the wisdom; to discuss any other subject has no meaning to either of us.

It would seem that this is more an endurance test for patience than a look at any particular subject matter, so let us all cut through the personal attacks and move on to the subject at hand.

dutchie

Mar 19th, 2004, 8:53 AM

Hey, now you're twisting it around! You announced proof, and gave none; you were asked to tell us about a manifestation of God in this age; again you avoided to give a straight answer; then you already judged me to be someone who is probably not very much interested in the Bible, while I gave absolutely no indication not to be interested in what you would have to say... And last but not least you accuse me of personally attacking you, while the only thing I said in your disadvantage was that I think your posts do carry some load of arrogance. A test for your patience?!? How about mine?

Move on to the subject at hand: The Big Shout to all you lost souls....
I think I made very clear what my answer to the Big Shout is. Do me a favor and re-read your first post to me, about my big words, and all. If I read it correctly I'd have to say that is the point where you tried to deviate from the road laid out in the threadtitle and first post under that.
And the gibberish was not in the scripture you used (a little bit of the prayer) but in the things you said after that.

Your posts are very fuzzy, GGTM, to say the least. Again I am not trying to attack you, I'm trying to get you to tell me what it is you want to say, what message you are trying to convey here.

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 19th, 2004, 12:25 PM

Thank-you Dutchie for your clarity on this matter and let us move onto the subject at hand.

Being that the subject is Lost Souls lets start there.

To say that anyone is a lost soul contradicts the power of God. How can God be all knowing and all wise if even one of his children is lost. Being lost therefore is a human perspective, a judgment call not only against people of different understanding but also against the ability of the eternal father to direct his children. Not only is this presumptuous, it can also be proved to be false.
Every individual is guilty of making mistakes for as human beings non of us are perfect but at the same time we are able to recognize mistakes. It is difficult to accept our own errors and indiscretions but it is very easy to measure and understand such actions of others. We continually judge and measure the actions of the people around us based on a scale from very bad to very good, from arrogant to humble, from greedy to generous, etc. What is the instrument that we use to do this measuring?
The part of our body that measures these levels is our heart or also known as our soul. The heart does not act of it's own accord but receives guidance from it's direct connection to God through a conduit or connection known as the Holy Spirit. This connection can be compared to the connection that your computer has to the Internet but on a far larger scale for it connects every living soul, those on the earth and those in all the worlds of God. It is a very powerful instrument that God uses to continually guide us along in our growth and understanding. The soul also has characteristics similar to that of a muscle that must be used or exercised in order to improve it's ability. The soul has also been compared to a mirror that reflects the qualities of God, in order to take advantage of what the soul has to offer we need to clean and polish it. This is done through our actions, when we listen to our heart and do as our heart dictates rather than following our own desires.
This is something that does not need a lot of explanation since we all have felt badly after doing something to someone that our heart has told us that this was not correct. There is one point that is quite often overlooked and that is when we see something we do not like in someone else it is usually a reflection of ourselves, it therefore is very important to do a lot of self reflection in these matters and strive to show forth the qualities that we expect of others, which includes overlooking the short comings of others and focusing to see their good qualities. We can only change other people by first changing ourselves to be an example to others.
The complexity of the soul when examined carefully is an amazing example of the organization of the world around us. Clearly to have such organization proves the existence of a great power, a power that is continually at work in the world around us. That power can be calculated and understood, when you take the time to examine it; it is a force far greater than the force of Gravity and the common term for it is God.

lazserus

Mar 19th, 2004, 1:11 PM

The complexity of the soul when examined carefully is an amazing example of the organization of the world around us. Clearly to have such organization proves the existence of a great power, a power that is continually at work in the world around us. That power can be calculated and understood, when you take the time to examine it; it is a force far greater than the force of Gravity and the common term for it is God.
Unfortunately, you are inaccurate here. Unless you're talking about human organizations, the world only exists because of entropy, the lack of organization.

That power can be calculated and understood, when you take the time to examine it; it is a force far greater than the force of Gravity and the common term for it is God.
Within the lines of faith, not observable fact. This great power you speak of has no measurable consequences outside the limits of one's own faith. Though devout religious people sling faith around as if it were to be an explanation for everything, it's really used in context with "we have absolutely NO evidence of a higher being besides what this little book tells me and what my personal beliefs consist of." Having faith may be truth enough for the quasi-zealous, but it has no bearing on men of logic.

substand

Mar 19th, 2004, 2:25 PM

dutchie

Mar 19th, 2004, 4:14 PM

I haven't read what you have to say, but since you're arguing with Laz, I'd probably agree with you and not him
:bs: :amaz: Why????

DontBeAfraid

Mar 19th, 2004, 4:38 PM

Must be the difference between conservative(laz) and uber-conservative(subs)

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 19th, 2004, 5:02 PM

I haven't read what you have to say, but since you're arguing with Laz, I'd probably agree with you and not him =)... But i found this extremely funny with a handle like Godsgifttomankind:

heheh
Thank-you for your reply substand,

You are correct to say that that title could be taken as being arrogant if the title was a reference to me. The title was set-up originally to post on another board about the great things that God is doing in the world. It was to intone a sense of honor, for the great gifts that have been presented to mankind in this age. It is as much about me as a drop of water is to the ocean. I have kept it to try and continue the continuity of the message, even though people misinterpret it as speaking about my own greatness.
I am honored by the mire fact of being able to present such a message to people, it is about equivalent of being chosen to be the kings standard bearer. I am a servant chosen by God to wave the flag of God and repeat the words that have been presented to me. The Lord has come in the fullness of His Glory!

Godsgifttomankind

Mar 19th, 2004, 5:59 PM

Unfortunately, you are inaccurate here. Unless you're talking about human organizations, the world only exists because of entropy, the lack of organization.

Within the lines of faith, not observable fact. This great power you speak of has no measurable consequences outside the limits of one's own faith. Though devout religious people sling faith around as if it were to be an explanation for everything, it's really used in context with "we have absolutely NO evidence of a higher being besides what this little book tells me and what my personal beliefs consist of." Having faith may be truth enough for the quasi-zealous, but it has no bearing on men of logic.
Laz,
You speak of this every time you post, it has to do with the quote of Einstein and that of innate knowledge or intuition. The human mind is able to grasp and understand things because of this great power and each person is able to understand it better than any of the thousands of theories that men have been presented. Entropy only explains half of the activity that takes place in the world, it is like saying the clock is ticking without looking at how the clock got to the point where it was able to be ticking. Things have to be collected together in order for them to spread apart.

In order for chaos to evolve from order there had to be order to evolve from. Where did the order come from?
The organization that I am talking about is the continued cycles that we see everywhere that we look, everything is either growing or else it is decaying and yet entropy explains only the decaying process and not the process of growth. There are other processes that science at present is unable to explain the main one being perception. How is it that we perceive differences such as color and how is it that we perceive differences in people. We can recognize good and bad, in the same way that we recognize darkness and light and yet these fundamental properties of the existence of Man are ignored in any equations that are represented. The intuitive mind that relies on innate knowledge is completely forgotten and yet it is that mind that is responsible for everything that we have and everything that we are.