The Mysterious Map of Piri Rei

[The Wicked Priest]

The Piri Re'is Map is an anomalous map drawn in the 15th Century which appear to represent better information about the shape of the continents than should have been known at the time. Furthermore, this information appears to have been obtained at some distant time in the past. It shows the coastline of Antarctica when it was "ice free". The last time it was ice free was 6,000 years ago.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj22/ciscojer/pirireis.jpg


Here is a big, super high-res picture of the map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Piri_reis_world_map_01.jpg

The Piri Re'is map is most interesting because of the attribution of the source of its information, and the extraordinary detail of the coastal outlines.

The Piri Re'is map was found in 1929 in the Imperial Palace in Constantinople. It is painted on parchment and dated 919 A.H. (in the Islamic calendar), which corresponds to 1513 AD. It is signed by an admiral of the Turkish Navy named Piri Ibn Haji Memmed, also known as Piri Re'is. According to Piri Re'is, the map had been assembled from a set of 20 maps drawn in the time of Alexander the Great.

If the information on this map was passed on since the time of Alexander, it must have come from the library of Alexandria. How had it been being passed on BEFORE then?



Here is a summary of some of the most unusual findings about the map:

* Scrutiny of the map shows that the makers knew the accurate circumference of the Earth to within 50 miles.

* The coastline and island that are shown in Antarctica must have been navigated at some period prior to 4,000 B.C. when these areas were free of ice from the last Ice Age.

* The map is thought to be one of the earliest "world maps" to show the Americas. Early scholars suggested that it showed accurate latitudes of the South American and African coastlines - only 21 years after the voyages of Columbus! (And remember, Columbus did NOT discover North America - only the Caribbean!) Writing in Piri Re'is own hand described how he had made the map from a collection of ancient maps, supplemented by charts that were drawn by Columbus himself. This suggests that these ancient maps were available to Columbus and could have been the basis of his expedition.

* As can be seen below, an azimuthal projection ( looking at the globe from a point above the globe), from the point above Cairo, Africa (Egypt) shows that the Piri Reis map corresponds more or less with the lower right quarter of this map if one rotates it some 20 degrees counter clockwise.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/piri_cairo1.gif
http://www.world-mysteries.com/piri_cairo2.gif


http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/index.htm


Is it possible that a civilization mapped the Earth accurately 6,000 years ago?


.

[The Wicked Priest]

One school of thought about the Piri Re'is map is the 'Atlantis in Antarctica' thesis. The chief proponents of this are Rand and Rose Flem-Ath in their book When the Sky Fell, though there are others. The Flem-Aths buy into both Hapgoods' Sea Kings and Polar shift thesis. In the latter, Hapgood claimed that the inclination of the Earth's axis of rotation shifted suddenly in the year 9,500 B.C. causing Antarctica to move hundreds of miles to the south.

Albert Einstein agrees with this :
Charles Hapgood first came to public attention in the mid-1950s with his theory of earth crust displacement, a radical geological idea which attracted the curiosity and support of Albert Einstein. The Einstein-Hapgood correspondence is a forgotten page in the history of science. We obtained these letters (ten from Einstein to Hapgood) from Albert Einstein's Archives in the Fall of 1995. They show, for the first time, just how extensively Albert Einstein was involved in assisting Charles Hapgood in the development of the theory of earth crust displacement.

In his second reply (24 November 1952) to Hapgood, Einstein wrote that the idea of earth crust displacement should not be ruled out "apriori" just because it didn't fit with what we wanted to believe about the earth's past. What was needed, Einstein claimed, was solid "geological and paleontological facts."

For six months, Hapgood gathered geological evidence to support the idea of an earth crust displacement. On the 3rd of May 1953 he forwarded thirty-eight pages of this evidence to Einstein. Central to his argument was Hapgood's evidence that Lesser Antarctica was ice-free at the same time that North America lay smothered in ice. Einstein responded (8 May 1953):

"I find your arguments very impressive and have the impression that your hypothesis is correct. One can hardly doubt that significant shifts of the crust have taken place repeatedly and within a short time."
http://www.lauralee.com/rflemath/e-h.htm

[DaveyDoes]

Millions of years our planet has been here and I think things like this show us (current humanity) how vain we are to believe that we are the brightest and best that has ever been. It's exciting to even imagine that there were others capable of things that we've only recently become capable of doing with GPS, satellite imaging and computers. Hundreds of great civilizations could have risen and fallen only to be buried so deep or lost in such obscurity or cloaked in legend that we could never tell what was really going on with them. I love when "proof" pops up that throws a wrench of our understanding of this planet and it's real history.
Wonderfully supportive of Atlantis, Mu or trans-planetary migration theories.

[The Wicked Priest]

Millions of years our planet has been here and I think things like this show us (current humanity) how vain we are to believe that we are the brightest and best that has ever been. It's exciting to even imagine that there were others capable of things that we've only recently become capable of doing with GPS, satellite imaging and computers. Hundreds of great civilizations could have risen and fallen only to be buried so deep or lost in such obscurity or cloaked in legend that we could never tell what was really going on with them. I love when "proof" pops up that throws a wrench of our understanding of this planet and it's real history.
Wonderfully supportive of Atlantis, Mu or trans-planetary migration theories.

Exactly, great post!

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

[Fyhre]

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

I saw that. Animals took over once again and thrived. It was like we were a figment of our own imaginations. That show was spine-tingling.

[Mezurashi]

This map first came to my attention via the book 'Fingerprints Of The Gods' by Graham Hancock -- in this book Hancock makes all sorts of crazy-sounding suggestions about possible alternate versions of history which we've forgotten. The Piri map is part of his overall concept, which (in that book) was that the Earth's crust could shift in one piece as well as in pieces, which produce the fault lines which produce earthquakes when there's a pressure release. Hapgood was also referenced as well - interesting stuff.

surprisingly it also helped make apparent to me that the 'science' of Egyptology has become as much a religion than anything else - one Does Not Question the findings of the Egyptologists. because part of Hancock's ideas are that the Pyamids at Giza weren't built by Egyptian at all ... that sort of thing.

anyways, passions run high on both sides of the issue - I was once buried under net links as forms of Proof that Hancock was wrong. only problem was, all these net links led me to articles that had that air of sanctimony -- that odious air of pure knowledge and infallibility that only results from zealotry. in short, the 'Bible Thumpers' were throwing their good book at me to 'prove' that 'God' exists.

it's hard for some people to let go of their notions of 'what is.' and some of these people are skilled at using credible sounding dogma to support the 'accepted' version of things ... just as snake oil salesmen can deftly weave a web of convincing sounding lies to sell you on a false concept ... just as guys like Icke can go from football commentator (in the UK) to 'respected' theorist ...

much as I like the idea of the possible implications of the Piri map on our long view of history I also try to hold on to the notion that although I can think up weird things - the universe is weirder than I can ever imagine ... so I try to think as weird as I can ...

[Nu Kua]

No mystery to me, since I am a firm believer in the "ancient astronaut (http://www.world-mysteries.com/aa.htm)" theory of early human development on earth. (early to us, at least)
Obviously, there was a time in history that is ancient to us where people were air born.
Hence all of the stories of "gods and goddesses" who were flying hither and yon on chariots or wings or whatever.
I mean, what of the Nazca lines and drawings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_lines) that can only make sense from way high in the sky?
How were so many sacred sites aligned exactly to the 30th parallel?


I love old maps.

[The Wicked Priest]

This map first came to my attention via the book 'Fingerprints Of The Gods' by Graham Hancock -- in this book Hancock makes all sorts of crazy-sounding suggestions about possible alternate versions of history which we've forgotten. The Piri map is part of his overall concept, which (in that book) was that the Earth's crust could shift in one piece as well as in pieces, which produce the fault lines which produce earthquakes when there's a pressure release. Hapgood was also referenced as well - interesting stuff.

surprisingly it also helped make apparent to me that the 'science' of Egyptology has become as much a religion than anything else - one Does Not Question the findings of the Egyptologists. because part of Hancock's ideas are that the Pyamids at Giza weren't built by Egyptian at all ... that sort of thing.

anyways, passions run high on both sides of the issue - I was once buried under net links as forms of Proof that Hancock was wrong. only problem was, all these net links led me to articles that had that air of sanctimony -- that odious air of pure knowledge and infallibility that only results from zealotry. in short, the 'Bible Thumpers' were throwing their good book at me to 'prove' that 'God' exists.

it's hard for some people to let go of their notions of 'what is.' and some of these people are skilled at using credible sounding dogma to support the 'accepted' version of things ... just as snake oil salesmen can deftly weave a web of convincing sounding lies to sell you on a false concept ... just as guys like Icke can go from football commentator (in the UK) to 'respected' theorist ...

much as I like the idea of the possible implications of the Piri map on our long view of history I also try to hold on to the notion that although I can think up weird things - the universe is weirder than I can ever imagine ... so I try to think as weird as I can ...

I'm with ya. I too first heard of this while reading "Fingerprints"... didn't have to get too far in the book because he opened with it. The most convincing argument in that book was the dating of the Sphinx, though. Robert Schock's water erosion theory is rock solid.

And you are right about Egyptology. Zahi Hawass, the head of antiquities in Egypt has his mug all over Discovery too, the "happy Egyptian" puppet of the Egyptian government. The Egyptian government wants us to believe that Egyptians built the pyramids, when they probably didn't. Even Zahi knows this. On Art Bell's show one night, psychic Sandra Brown mentioned when she was in Egypt, Zahi told her that he knows for a FACT the Giza complex is much, much older than he reports.

[The Wicked Priest]

No mystery to me, since I am a firm believer in the "ancient astronaut (http://www.world-mysteries.com/aa.htm)" theory of early human development on earth. (early to us, at least)
Obviously, there was a time in history that is ancient to us where people were air born.
Hence all of the stories of "gods and goddesses" who were flying hither and yon on chariots or wings or whatever.
I mean, what of the Nazca lines and drawings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_lines) that can only make sense from way high in the sky?
How were so many sacred sites aligned exactly to the 30th parallel?


I love old maps.

Welcome back, Nu Kua!

I've read "Chariots of the Gods" and "The 12th Planet", so I've looked into the ancient astronaut theory. I don't know... I'm more of an Atlantis kinda guy.

Who knows, maybe there is truth in both, but either way. who can argue with this guy:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/peru/images/nazca-astronaut-nc-200h.jpg

[JenaS62]

Welcome back, Nu Kua!

I've read "Chariots of the Gods" and "The 12th Planet", so I've looked into the ancient astronaut theory. I don't know... I'm more of an Atlantis kinda guy.

Who knows, maybe there is truth in both, but either way. who can argue with this guy:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/peru/images/nazca-astronaut-nc-200h.jpg



I am firmly in the ancient astronaut corner. Great find WP - absolutely fascinating!

[Harry61]

Exactly, great post!

I watched a special on Discovery called "After Humans" (I think), and it talked about what the Earth would look like if the human race just vanished. They hypothesized that in 1,000 years, no one would even know we even existed, because there would be virtually nothing left.

I saw that show too, it was interesting. And what a great post you have going here.

I beleive in out side or shall I say out of this world help in developing our skills. And Daveys point on how vain we all are, so true and so sad to think about sometimes.

Today as I was shopping, I started to notice the little things I take advantage of, like the cost of bread. Well, I decided to start making my own bread instead of paying for the costs of delievery, and advertising etc. As I was telling my neighbor about this, she said. I bet half the world doesn't remember how to make bread from scratch. Or many things that have fell by the "way side".

If we just look around our home, what would we be able to survive on? If you take the average person living in la la land as we know it now, they probably wouldn't be able to do some of the "little" things. The map probably took a decade to make but well worth it.

There are many lost arts and I believe that humans have lost most of the common sense values we once had.

I like this one WP, you make AO shine sometimes!

[The Wicked Priest]

Thanks Harry.... what a great compliment!

I get reminded of how tough it would be to survive whenever my power goes out during a storm. I would have a really hard time living off the land, that's for sure. If the worst happens, I'll just have to follow the smell of fresh baked bread and look for the chick in the Larry Johnson jersey!:yumyum:

[phedrereine]

Wow.

This is fairly blowing my mind. It's hard to believe anyone could have sailed to Antarctica in 4000 B.C., isn't it?

Not even the Vikings could have dreamed of reaching that far! I know they settled Greenland and Leif Eriksson led the first old world expedition to present day New England and Canada... in 1000 A.D.

But 4000 B.C. . . We're not even talking about Sumeria. This was before then. We're talking Early Bronze Age. This was before the birth of writing, so we think. Cuneiform script existed, maybe, barely... The Sumerians traded expansively in the Persian Gulf; we've found artifacts of obsidian to suggest that. They had sail boats and river boats. There's no way in hell that they could have sailed halfway across the Atlantic, let alone to Antarctica.

*sits and broods*

It's true that if there was a place where these maps could have been procured and safely stored, it was the Library of Alexandria. They had so much we'll never know. It was an international powerhouse of knowledge. The philosophers and scholars there studied everything from astronomy to critical analysis to Homer. They had thousands upon thousands of scrolls shelved away, and always went scouting for more at fairs and from ships. But how could 20 maps have survived together through four different conquerings/burnings? And how did they fall into someone's lap in 1513?

And what's this about Antarctica being iceless in the Ice Age? Hahaha! Oh, I'm lost. If that's the case, then could it be that it iced over again later than we think, and so it wasn't mapped out until much later than 4000 B.C.? But much later is still much too early!!!

This is a mystery. I don't understand it at all! It could be because it's 3:00 A.M. Do you think? No. It's a mystery. Discover the truth, I will. Yes. After I sleep.

[The Wicked Priest]

It's not that hard to believe... the human timeline just has to be re written a little. And it should be.

Take the Sumerians... it's hard for me to believe is that a people just under one thousand years removed from cavemen, could know complicated astronomy, mathematics, metal working, glass blowing.... ect

It's really not hard to believe, if you believe the human race had a helping hand.

[phedrereine]

We know Cro-Magnons had more complex brains than Neanderthals, and they started to appear about 43,000 B.C. Maybe they were even more advanced than we think, and maybe Mesopotamian civilization and innovation shaped itself even sooner than we think, too.

But it's still incredibly difficult for me to believe a civilization from the Tigris/Euphrates river valley could have accomplished this feat. And that was the birth of civilization. Do you think an unknown civilization from elsewhere could have managed it? And from what area? And why are there no other records of it? Hmm.

Now.. Native Americans crossed over here from Eurasia about 10,000 B.C. It's possible that those who migrated to South America could have been within reach to investigate Antarctica. But there is absolutely no way this information could have made it back to Macedonia or wherever in the time of Alexander. Maybe Piri Re'is was mistaken about that fact. Afterall, he drew this map in 1513 and had no way to know for sure where and when the information originated. It's not like they had carbon dating then. We don't have a single one of these maps today, which means any guess as to their origin is suspect.

I just think some factual information about these maps was misplaced along the way.

In any case, do you think the sketching of the landmass beneath the ice was more of an estimate of what could not be seen, and so was coincidental? Then it could be any time.

It's just really difficult for me imagine anyone from the Eastern Hempisphere in 4000 B.C. having the capability and foresight to make this very long voyage. Imagine the extraordinary navigational knowledge they would have had to have. And also, the provisions. How would they know anything about storing provisions on such a long voyage? And how would they deal with the currents around Antarctica, nothing that they were used to from home? And such an unprecedented voyage would have been taxing for those on board. (Magellan had to deal with a few mutinies and the fear and cabin fever of his crew all before reaching South America. It's a miracle they made it to the Philippines. That was in the 16th century, with the best ships of the time and the backing of the Spanish Crown.) And not only would they have had to make it there, but back again, with the maps intact. I would like to believe that we were capable of more in the past than we give ourselves credit for, but there just isn't any evidence to support the ability of such an undertaking.

A helping hand? That's an interesting idea, although it creeps me out. lol. What do you mean, in particular?

[The Wicked Priest]

We know Cro-Magnons had more complex brains than Neanderthals, and they started to appear about 43,000 B.C. Maybe they were even more advanced than we think, and maybe Mesopotamian civilization and innovation shaped itself even sooner than we think, too. I think they did develop sooner.


But it's still incredibly difficult for me to believe a civilization from the Tigris/Euphrates river valley could have accomplished this feat. And that was the birth of civilization. Do you think an unknown civilization from elsewhere could have managed it? And from what area? And why are there no other records of it? Hmm. This was no ordinary civilization. They appeared as a fully developed civilization almost overnight. Their knowledge of science was amazing... too amazing. In fact, their system of mathematics is BETTER than ours. It's based on 60 and it's much easier to use(maybe Cart or someone can explain this better, because I suck at math).

A lot of people on this board believe that aliens passed on knowledge to early humans, but I believe there is truth in the Atlantis myth. Not so much the sunken continent part, but the advanced civilization with the high science part. Maybe it was in Antarctica....maybe the Bimini Coast.


Now.. Native Americans crossed over here from Eurasia about 10,000 B.C. It's possible that those who migrated to South America could have been within reach to investigate Antarctica. But there is absolutely no way this information could have made it back to Macedonia or wherever in the time of Alexander. Maybe Piri Re'is was mistaken about that fact. Afterall, he drew this map in 1513 and had no way to know for sure where and when the information originated. It's not like they had carbon dating then. We don't have a single one of these maps today, which means any guess as to their origin is suspect. Why are you so sure of the fact that info couldn't reach Alexandria? Did you know how the Library of Alexandria acquired all of it's books? By decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books and scrolls in their possession. These writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. The originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the previous owners. Most travelers had maps.... it makes perfect sense. Maps are an amazing thing really... even if you can't read, you can understand a map. And anyone who traveled, rich or poor, carried a map.


I just think some factual information about these maps was misplaced along the way.

In any case, do you think the sketching of the landmass beneath the ice was more of an estimate of what could not be seen, and so was coincidental? Then it could be any time. You cannot estimate where a river bed is under an ice sheet that is a 1/2 a mile thick. http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/16465_.html


It's just really difficult for me imagine anyone from the Eastern Hempisphere in 4000 B.C. having the capability and foresight to make this very long voyage. Imagine the extraordinary navigational knowledge they would have had to have. And also, the provisions. How would they know anything about storing provisions on such a long voyage? And how would they deal with the currents around Antarctica, nothing that they were used to from home? And such an unprecedented voyage would have been taxing for those on board. (Magellan had to deal with a few mutinies and the fear and cabin fever of his crew all before reaching South America. It's a miracle they made it to the Philippines. That was in the 16th century, with the best ships of the time and the backing of the Spanish Crown.) And not only would they have had to make it there, but back again, with the maps intact. I would like to believe that we were capable of more in the past than we give ourselves credit for, but there just isn't any evidence to support the ability of such an undertaking. Don't underestimate the knowledge of ancient people. The great pyramid of Giza cannot be duplicated by 21st century technology. And our 21st century arrogance tells us the Egyptians built the Pyramids without the brains to invent the wheel first. Right...


A helping hand? That's an interesting idea, although it creeps me out. lol. What do you mean, in particular? Passed on technology from an ancient civilization, sometime before or during the ice age.

[phedrereine]

Why are you so sure of the fact that info couldn't reach Alexandria? Did you know how the Library of Alexandria acquired all of it's books? By decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books and scrolls in their possession. These writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. The originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the previous owners. Most travelers had maps.... it makes perfect sense. Maps are an amazing thing really... even if you can't read, you can understand a map. And anyone who traveled, rich or poor, carried a map.

Alexandria's reach was undeniably vast. As far as Asia, Europe and Africa are concerned, I do not doubt that Alexandria obtained scrolls that had traversed throughout them all. But South America? I can't believe it. I can't see how anyone was sailing to South America at this time and there is no evidence or information to suggest that this was possible, whether you're talking about China, Mesopotamia or Europe... I don't buy that ship building was advanced enough to complete such a journey and a return to boot.


Don't underestimate the knowledge of ancient people. The great pyramid of Giza cannot be duplicated by 21st century technology. And our 21st century arrogance tells us the Egyptians built the Pyramids without the brains to invent the wheel first. Right...

That would be a flaw in our thinking. lol.

In any case, I do feel that they were much more knowledgeable than we think, but not that much. How could an expedition have sailed to Antarctica and returned without any sort of impact at all on the future? There are no records of any other attempts, are there? And such an undertaking would have had to have been supported by someone powerful. It would have been very risky. If they had the capability to sail that far, then they had very impressive and advanced naval knowledge indeed. They should have been able to gain themselves an empire, or at least raid as the Vikings did, or have some sort of great influence. They certainly would have been able to produce objects to leave behind for us to find. We have no inklings of anything like that, and if one civilization had been able to do something like that, why did it take the others thousands of years to catch up?

I believe in the Atlantis myth, too, but I believe that that was the Minoan Civilization... 1600 B.C., give or take. Thera is a worthy instigator of the myth. But who knows? Another mystery.

In the end, there are no certainties for or against it, because we simply have no proof of anything. And it's true that so little is known of ancient history. We can only guess. Something major could have happened to wipe out this information and cut off knowledge of its existence from the rest of the world. I don't know.

[Beatnik Bob]

It's really a shame though that The Great Library was destroyed, and no copies were made. Supposedly, there was a three volume history of the earth there writen down by a Babylonian priest who recieved visions from "the gods". Whether his stuff were true or not, i see its loss as a travesty.

But great thread by the way! :2thumbs: I only want to add that I recently read the Hindu Epic poems the Ramayana and Mahabaratah, passed down for thousands of years before being writen down.
The Mahabaratah desribes a great "god" war, where in one scene a great explosion happens, and it is described JUST LIKE a nuclear bomb blast. It desribes a flash that "vaporized the birds and beasts" and was blinding to look at. And after the explosion there was such contamination in the food and everything that people died uncounted, and threw themselves into the water...

And both books describe flying ships of the "gods" shaped like silver discs. Rama (the hero of the Ramayana) captures one after defeating Ravana, and flys all round the world. (an interesting concept considering people of that time werent supposed to know the world wasnt flat).
Another note on hindu culture:
They seem to have a deep and ancient understanding of the universe in their old literature that shouldnt have been known:

Literature talks of space and galaxies, when cultures thought the earth was enveloped by a huge dark blanket, and the stars were little holes.

They talk of the gods conquering many worlds, and once a tyrant human king went forth and started enslaving people of other planets. This is interesting because humans "didnt know" that there were other landmasses like earth at that time. And they shouldnt have suspected the planets to be little more than small balls in the sky, who were there for looks.

What's even more fascinating is that Tibetans have thousands of untranslated scrolls in their keeping. Imagine what might be learned of our past if the ancient languages are desciphered?

But anyway, i get off on subjects like this....i should stop. :shy:

[Nu Kua]

Mahabaratah, passed down for thousands of years before being writen down.
The Mahabaratah desribes a great "god" war, where in one scene a great explosion happens, and it is described JUST LIKE a nuclear bomb blast. It desribes a flash that "vaporized the birds and beasts" and was blinding to look at. And after the explosion there was such contamination in the food and everything that people died uncounted, and threw themselves into the water...

And both books describe flying ships of the "gods" shaped like silver discs. Rama (the hero of the Ramayana) captures one after defeating Ravana, and flys all round the world. (an interesting concept considering people of that time werent supposed to know the world wasnt flat).
Another note on hindu culture:
They seem to have a deep and ancient understanding of the universe in their old literature that shouldnt have been known:

Literature talks of space and galaxies, when cultures thought the earth was enveloped by a huge dark blanket, and the stars were little holes.

They talk of the gods conquering many worlds, and once a tyrant human king went forth and started enslaving people of other planets. This is interesting because humans "didnt know" that there were other landmasses like earth at that time. And they shouldnt have suspected the planets to be little more than small balls in the sky, who were there for looks.


These are among the several reasons I feel most comfortable with the ancient astronaut thing. Many, many old tales speak of the 'gods" flying, allude to other planetary bodies, and to skip about a little, the word "heaven" from the Sumerian script originally meant "sky" or "up there", not a place like a "paradise".

But the other stuff is cool, too. I wonder sometimes if the story of Atlantis isn't another retelling of the flood event.

[Beatnik Bob]

But the other stuff is cool, too. I wonder sometimes if the story of Atlantis isn't another retelling of the flood event.
I think both Atlantis and ancient astronauts are true. They can coexist. Atlantis just means we lost everything long ago in an armageddon of some sort.

[The Wicked Priest]

But South America? I can't believe it. I can't see how anyone was sailing to South America at this time and there is no evidence or information to suggest that this was possible, whether you're talking about China, Mesopotamia or Europe... I don't buy that ship building was advanced enough to complete such a journey and a return to boot.


In any case, I do feel that they were much more knowledgeable than we think, but not that much. How could an expedition have sailed to Antarctica and returned without any sort of impact at all on the future? There are no records of any other attempts, are there? And such an undertaking would have had to have been supported by someone powerful. It would have been very risky. If they had the capability to sail that far, then they had very impressive and advanced naval knowledge indeed. They should have been able to gain themselves an empire, or at least raid as the Vikings did, or have some sort of great influence. They certainly would have been able to produce objects to leave behind for us to find. We have no inklings of anything like that, and if one civilization had been able to do something like that, why did it take the others thousands of years to catch up?

As far as shipbuilding goes, I do think it's possible, and I think they did it. The proof is in the Piri Rei flavored pudding.


I believe in the Atlantis myth, too, but I believe that that was the Minoan Civilization... 1600 B.C., give or take. Thera is a worthy instigator of the myth. But who knows? Another mystery. I disagree... Thera was no Atlantis, but as you say, who knows.


In the end, there are no certainties for or against it, because we simply have no proof of anything. And it's true that so little is known of ancient history. We can only guess. Something major could have happened to wipe out this information and cut off knowledge of its existence from the rest of the world. I don't know. I think the major event was the ice age. The Sphinx in Egypt has been dated by some reputable geologists to 10,000 BC. That for me is proof of an advanced ancient civilization, but I agree more evidence is needed to re write history.

[Beatnik Bob]

Actually, I just wanna know how the coast lines seem recognizable if Antarctica ISNT covered in ice. :huh?:
Right? Cuz all the melted ice would go somewhere... :dunno:

[TC]

The theories written depicting a shift by the earths crust by both Hapgood ( Theory of Earth Crust Displacement) and Velikovsky ( Earth in Upheaval) would explain an ice free continent suddenly thrown into a polar geographical location, but both are highly debated.

The Minoan having a very advanced culture for their time ( ceramic water pipes and flush toilets some 3500 years ago) and their sudden demise with the catastrophic eruption of Thira ( todays Santorini) would be more than enough to propagate a story of a submerged culture, seeing as the tidal surge was over 800ft high when it reached Crete.

Neolithic evidence of human existence some 8,000 years old on the northern Orkney island group would suggest a possible land bridge between England and Europe. And the same geological formation of chalk cliffs exposed on both sides of the channel confirm an obvious subsidence of a huge amount of land mass.


When the Aswan Dam was being built across the Nile, test drilling to find bed rock had revealed its the original depth and floodplain, some 240 ft lower than its present elevation. This obviously begs the question as to the depth of the Mediterranean ( or even its existence) during past millenia, and the corresponding exposed land and island groups.

All of these possibilities question our current theories as to this planets geologic past and its effect on human history, we are surrounded by evidence of enormous upheavals and the obvious consequence on human culture. Where the snag arises, is our opinion of dates, some suggest hundreds of thousands of years prior to mans first appearance, while others claim the possibility of only tens of thousands.

[lazserus]

The last time [Antarctica] was ice free was 6,000 years ago.
Hmm, I don't think so. Antarctica has always been near the southern pole. It broke away from Gondwana maybe 160 million years ago, heading south. The Cretaceous Period was "ice-free" but we're talking no less than 60 million years ago. If I am not mistaken, ice began covering the planet [again] some 20 million years ago. By 20 million years ago, the continents were more or less close to where they are now, with the exceptions of India and Australia. (Yes, I know India is not a continent, but before it was considered one before it slammed into southern Asia.) I know I'm nitpicking and it looks as if I'm picking a fight, but I'm not. I'm just correcting you. After the break up starting in the Triassic, Antarctica stayed at the pole and was one of the first land masses to freeze after the K/T boundary. Even with modern technology, we can only guess the rock contents buried below dozens of miles of ice on the polar continent. What I'm saying is, Antarctica was not free of ice 6,000 years ago. Not 10,000 years ago. Not 20,000 years ago. And not 10 million years ago. I'm all for ice-free Earth, but becareful how you spin this shite.


The theories written depicting a shift by the earths crust by both Hapgood ( Theory of Earth Crust Displacement) and Velikovsky ( Earth in Upheaval) would explain an ice free continent suddenly thrown into a polar geographical location, but both are highly debated.
Debated because the hypotheses explaining the phenomena (especially Hapgood's) is nothing short of absurd. It's simple physics, which is related in the way of isostatic rebound. As ice disappears the weight allows the earth to heave up. Hapgood's concept of an immediate displacement of the planet's crust is a joke. You can't sling the surface of the earth over 3,000 kilometers in the blink of an eye. At least not without outsourcing. You'd need an impact from an object nearing the size of the moon to do that and life wouldn't be here if that happened in Hapgood's timeframe. The records I presume you're referring to have been long explained without the radical theories of Hapgood et al.


Neolithic evidence of human existence some 8,000 years old on the northern Orkney island group would suggest a possible land bridge between England and Europe. And the same geological formation of chalk cliffs exposed on both sides of the channel confirm an obvious subsidence of a huge amount of land mass.
I can dig it. If I remember correctly, Orkney is like a bowl of Corn Flakes. There are scattered flakes of islands and some are populated and some aren't. The Scottish Highlands aren't known for volcanics, so I assume Orkney isn't volcanic in nature. I haven't the foggiest idea the sediment in the Orkney Islands, but if we assume it's sand or lime, there's no reason to think it wasn't once all one chunk of land. Actually, if the primary sediment is limestone or shale, it would make perfect sense for it being broken up. But I'm just throwing bullshit out here.

[The Wicked Priest]

Hmm, I don't think so. Antarctica has always been near the southern pole. It broke away from Gondwana maybe 160 million years ago, heading south. The Cretaceous Period was "ice-free" but we're talking no less than 60 million years ago. If I am not mistaken, ice began covering the planet [again] some 20 million years ago. By 20 million years ago, the continents were more or less close to where they are now, with the exceptions of India and Australia. (Yes, I know India is not a continent, but before it was considered one before it slammed into southern Asia.) I know I'm nitpicking and it looks as if I'm picking a fight, but I'm not. I'm just correcting you. After the break up starting in the Triassic, Antarctica stayed at the pole and was one of the first land masses to freeze after the K/T boundary. Even with modern technology, we can only guess the rock contents buried below dozens of miles of ice on the polar continent. What I'm saying is, Antarctica was not free of ice 6,000 years ago. Not 10,000 years ago. Not 20,000 years ago. And not 10 million years ago. I'm all for ice-free Earth, but becareful how you spin this shite.
No spin, my friend... and I'll always welcome opposing viewpoints. I think the only point you can correct me on is "ice free". Let me clarify... Antarctica hasn't been 100% ice free in millions of years. This is very true. But it's proven that the Antarctic climate has been through warm spells where most of the coastline was ice free. Hapgood's crust displacement theory may have holes, but ice cores don't lie.


The Historical Atlas of Canada states: “Between 5000 and 2000 BC climatic warming reached a maximum: lichen woodland and boreal forest extended north of their modern limit; grassland, parkland, and deciduous woodland were more extensive than now.”‡

† The Ice Chronicles, Paul Andrew Mayewski & Frank White, p. 121.

‡ Historical Atlas of Canada, Vol. I, Harris, 1987, plate 4.

Thus, Greenland could have been circumnavigated during two different periods within the past 6,000 years. Given what is known of early civilizations, the most likely period when someone might have sailed around Greenland would have been during the second warm period from 900 BC to 600 AD. Presumably, during this period both the North Sea and the waters surrounding Antarctica were warmer.
http://www.nymapsociety.org/FEATURES/TRAGER.HTM

More evidence of a modern, warm Antarctica
http://www.co2science.org/subject/m/summaries/mwpantarctica.php
http://www.physorg.com/news95953592.html

[lazserus]

No spin, my friend... and I'll always welcome opposing viewpoints. I think the only point you can correct me on is "ice free". Let me clarify... Antarctica hasn't been 100% ice free in millions of years. This is very true. But it's proven that the Antarctic climate has been through warm spells where most of the coastline was ice free. Hapgood's crust displacement theory may have holes, but ice cores don't lie.


http://www.nymapsociety.org/FEATURES/TRAGER.HTM

More evidence of a modern, warm Antarctica
http://www.co2science.org/subject/m/summaries/mwpantarctica.php
http://www.physorg.com/news95953592.html
No offense, but I don't find your sources credible. I won't tell you I am not open to the idea that earth was exposed along the borders of Antarctica some 6 kilos ago, but there's nothing substantial here for that. It looks a lot like regurgitated data from professional sources. But who's to say it's regurgitated?

I can go with the tales of sailing around the tip of Greenland (which is controversial in itself, considering the Arctic wasn't sailed until the 19th century). The early Medieval ages experienced warm temperatures in places we'd today find ridiculous. On the other hand, there was the Little Ice Age, which lasted a few hundred years. With that climate hiccup, there is no way that anyone could sail over the northern tip of Greenland during the late Medieval period and early Renaissance.

I'm up for debate. I'm just not yet convinced. But, we're straying from the topic. I didn't mean to do that. I'm analytical and tend to disect stuff.

[James Random]

Actually, the man is right. Both of the polar regions have experienced warm periods over the times in which the ice and snow had receded far enough to reveal coastlines.
It is accepted fact that the Vikings discovered Greenland and Iceland, which is why they are named thus. The original intention was to throw of would be land-hoarders by deterring them from a place called 'iceland' which was, in fact, quite green and lush.

[TC]

This planet has experienced several ice free periods. But these presided our 30,000 year foot print, what we do have is the current and vary precise data with ice cores, which have a 400,000 year record of this planets interglacial periods.

So geologically we have only one window that this map could have been made based on an ice free pole. A period prior to the earliest 400,000 core date of existing ice. Everything after that period has had a continued ice cover in the region of Vostok which lays within the Australian Antarctic territory.

[Reef Badlaw]

This planet has experienced several ice free periods. But these presided our 30,000 year foot print, what we do have is the current and vary precise data with ice cores, which have a 400,000 year record of this planets interglacial periods.

So geologically we have only one window that this map could have been made based on an ice free pole. A period prior to the earliest 400,000 core date of existing ice. Everything after that period has had a continued ice cover in the region of Vostok which lays within the Australian Antarctic territory.

Unless the Ancient Astronauts' cam-technology 'photographed' the land-mass under the ice, which became part of Columbus' collected chart-data. -Or Reis'. Both guys assumed the americas' coastlines were actually Asia. If the AA's left any written-info behind, besides 'photos', it doesn't really make itself definitively known via the map's various notations/translations.

The map-notations are mundane in-context, but fascinating 500-years later...
'Monsters' are probably unclassified creatures.

[tahn1000]

THAT IS A MAP OF THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA....

turn it on it's side.

[Doc Velocity]

You know, Antarctica probably holds more secrets under two miles of ice than any other continent. I bet you that there is ALL KINDS of anthropomorphic bullshit buried under that ice.

I still think that a very highly sophisticated civilization existed on this planet in prehistory. Like, VERY sophisticated, capable of terraforming the planet, capable of interstellar travel (no Plan 9 from Outer Space, please), and entirely capable of surviving to the present day.

Now... Hold on. Let's see... Yeah, why not? Why not consider that the motherfucking dinosaurs actually did evolve into a highly intelligent species??? I mean, we got their fucking bone record there and it just stops at 65 million years. Okay, an asteroid, perhaps.

But, no.

While some of you think I'm a mean old racist bigot because I talk about a Caucasian civilization in prehistory(phhht), you will no doubt cringe when I suggest that the goddamned dinosaurs evolved into something HIGHER than Humans.

I think that's what happened.

The dinosaurs had over 600 million years to fuck around. Are you telling me that, in that amount of time, those creatures did not become very highly intelligent? More intelligent than us?

As a species, we're only about 200,000 years old, and our evolution from a shrew into a human being took about 7 million years.

Fucking drop in the bucket.

The dinosaurs reigned on this planet for over 600 million years, and you're telling me that Evolution didn't squeeze out fucking self-awareness and high intelligence until we humans arrived on the scene?

Give me a MF break.

It happened, maybe several times. High non-human intelligence has walked on this planet before us. Hi-tech civilizations, too.

People are so crazy about UFOs being extraterrestrial, but the probability is that the occupants of UFOs today are descendants of the dinosaurs.

Ancient civilizations may coexist with us on the planet. As we speak.

So, yeah, let's line up the flame-throwers and let's set a bunch of thermite bombs (tip o' the hat to John Capenter) and just EXPOSE the bones of Antarctica. I bet there's some wild stuff down there, for sher.

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

the dinasaurs and any other similarly ultraviolet sensitive animal died out when the atmosphere was covered with a fine layer of dust. their metabolisms simply failed in the reduced uv exposure.

oh, and i repeat, that is a map of the MEDITERRANEAN SEA. nothing mysterious here folks - move on and get over it.

[GamerGal]

http://forums.armageddononline.org/did-humans-originate-t24657.html?t=24657&highlight=Map

Old topic on this.

[Doc Velocity]

I forgot to ask, was the map authenticated?

One thing I fucking hate (enjoy) is when some greedy black marketeer makes all the right connections in the archaeological world and forges an artifact that fires up the talking heads.

Delicious.

There must be a master website exclusively for Hoaxters, right? I mean, where hoaxters gather and chew the fat, as it were, exchanging hoax ideas?

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

seriously, does nobody know geography?

[Doc Velocity]

Old topic on this.

You're so cute, GG, with your commie propaganda thread. :brainfart:

— Doc Velocity

[Fut004]

THAT IS A MAP OF THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA....

turn it on it's side.

How about you make an image showing this to us?



Now... Hold on. Let's see... Yeah, why not? Why not consider that the motherfucking dinosaurs actually did evolve into a highly intelligent species??? I mean, we got their fucking bone record there and it just stops at 65 million years. Okay, an asteroid, perhaps.

Nah, the Dinos died off.
Their relatives evolved into birds. Some birds are extremely smart though, like Grey Parrots, but I don't think that this is anywhere close to what you're trying to suggest.



The dinosaurs reigned on this planet for over 600 million years, and you're telling me that Evolution didn't squeeze out fucking self-awareness and high intelligence until we humans arrived on the scene?


By your logic Crocodilians would be by far the most intelligent things on earth, seeing how they're just as old as Dinosaurs. But they're little more than walking mouths.

[TC]

Umm the Antarctic ice sheet has existed sense the Pliocene , roughly 5 million years. And you have to think that anything so profound as an exposed polar continent would be the focus of research at the highest levels. ( unless you believe in conspiracies on that magnitude...

[Doc Velocity]

By your logic Crocodilians would be by far the most intelligent things on earth, seeing how they're just as old as Dinosaurs. But they're little more than walking mouths.

By your logic, every creature evolves into an intelligent bipedal hominid.

No, doofus, the Crocodilians are just survivors, like the Coelacanthe... They hit their ceiling and stayed there.

I'm talking about millions and billions and trillions of opportunities for high intelligence to evolve over 600 million years.

But it didn't?

It didn't evolve until WE came along? Bullshit.

You can look at Evolution and see where certain unique characteristics emerged time and time again across many entirely different species. For example, the power of flight has independently evolved multiple times, in the insect world, the reptile world, the avian world and in the mammal world.

Bipedalism has evolved multiple times in unrelated species, for another example.

So, what makes us think that WE are the only occurrence of high intelligence on Earth? I think we're surrounded by evidence of multiple iterations of non-human high intelligence over the ages.

I think the UFOs are home-grown. They LIVE here. Always have, long before we climbed out of the trees and started eating charred meat.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

seriously, does nobody know geography?

Obviously about as much as you do. The Pri Reis maps most accurate comparison is to the eastern coast of South America

http://www.theastralworld.com/ancient-mysteries/pics/piri-reis-overlay.jpg

Unless you are confusing it with purported Atlantean maps which usually do depict the Mediterranean.

And yes Virginia, ancient map makers often curved the maps to fit the media they were writing on.

[Fut004]

By your logic, every creature evolves into an intelligent bipedal hominid.

How do you figure? Nothing I've said even remotely resembles this.
Way to show everybody how much of a dipshit you actually are.

[TC]

If we know for a fact that we have a documented 400,000 years of continuous ice pack...

it stands to reason that any advanced race would have produced something far more detailed... if they had the ability to see under this ice... rather than a questionable renaissance version of a coast line.

[Doc Velocity]

How do you figure? Nothing I've said even remotely resembles this.
Way to show everybody how much of a dipshit you actually are.
I'm running rings around you, you ignorant drop-out product of socialist education.

— Doc Velocity

[Fut004]

I'm running rings around you, you ignorant drop-out product of socialist education.

Oh, so you're one of those completely delusional AO members who lives in a fantasy world. It's too bad you weren't around to meet EQ, I bet you guys would have got a long great.

[Doc Velocity]

If we know for a fact that we have a documented 400,000 years of continuous ice pack...

it stands to reason that any advanced race would have produced something far more detailed... if they had the ability to see under this ice... rather than a questionable renaissance version of a coast line.

Ah, but what if it wasn't an advanced race that created the map, but actually us hairless apes drawing the maps, based on descriptions from a third, more highly-advanced party? A teacher species that would guide us so far, instructing us in navigation techniques, farming, medicine, shit like that.

Then the teacher species retreated, promised to return some day (to see if we had developed anything of value), leaving us on our own.

Whereupon, we hairless apes construct these elaborate and convoluted descriptions of a benevolent GOD, even a messiah, who once visited us but then retreated to a faraway land, a paradise.

It's a common tradition among aboriginals the world over.

I think that's the fucking little nut of truth at the core of the religions and ancient human folklore on Earth, triple-distilled over the millennia into the bullshit we have today.

— Doc Velocity

[Doc Velocity]

Oh, so you're one of those completely delusional AO members who lives in a fantasy world. It's too bad you weren't around to meet EQ, I bet you guys would have got a long great.

Which translates to: "I feel so totally PWNED, my inflamed anus is gaping."

— Doc Velocity

[lycanox]

Ok. This stupid rethoric stops here. And Fut, remove the signature.

Lets get back to debating.

[tahn1000]

Obviously about as much as you do. The Pri Reis maps most accurate comparison is to the eastern coast of South America

http://www.theastralworld.com/ancient-mysteries/pics/piri-reis-overlay.jpg

Unless you are confusing it with purported Atlantean maps which usually do depict the Mediterranean.

And yes Virginia, ancient map makers often curved the maps to fit the media they were writing on.

you know, people will believe the stupidest things. CRETE!!! get a map people, get a clue and get a grip on REALITY.

.... and yes - for the none too bright crete is the clue.

am i the only one here who studied ancient history and geography at school?

[Reef Badlaw]

The 2 translations of the map-comments concerning 'Antarctica';

And in this country it seems that there are white-haired monsters in this shape, and also six-horned oxen. The Portuguese infidels have written it in their maps. . . .

and

This country is a waste. Everything is in ruin and it is said that large snakes are found here. For this reason the Portuguese infidels did not land on these shores and these are also said to be very hot.

Both Edgar Rice Burroughs and Howie Lovecraft took these notations and ran wild with them, creating glittering fictions of lost civilizations/jungles in ice. Yet neither notation mentions 'ice'. Okay, the Mediterranean's had no concept of pack-ice. But the phrase 'everything is in ruin' is juxtaposed with 'very hot', without mentioning 'everything is in ruin because it is very cold'.

I believe that 'a lost something or other' exists under the Antarctic-pack.

Another mysterious aspect to the map-comments, are the 'torn-off notes' near what would be modern-day Nigeria, on the African-coastline;

.... On this shore a tower
.... is however
.... in this climate gold
.... taking a rope
.... is said they measured

Talk-about a brain-teaser...

[one14am]

Ok. This stupid rethoric stops here. And Fut, remove the signature.

Lets get back to debating.

Thanks. The deteriorating commentary led to less and less credibility on all parts.

[Rabid1]

you know, people will believe the stupidest things. CRETE!!! get a map people, get a clue and get a grip on REALITY.

.... and yes - for the none too bright crete is the clue.

am i the only one here who studied ancient history and geography at school?
You made the claim, instead of ranting like a child try to prove it. Crete would no be able to match on more than 4 points. Explain why a map of a known area would have so many notes about unknown things? The maker would be a laughing stock? Why wouldn't Reis simply mark it as a map of Crete since he was known for his maps of the Mediterranean?

[Ningishiddza]

seriously, does nobody know geography?


THAT IS A MAP OF THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA....

turn it on it's side.

NOTE TO SELF: Never let tahn1000 sit in the navigator's seat.


I forgot to ask, was the map authenticated?

It was verified by Professor Charles Hapgood of Keene College in 1960, then again by the US Naval Observatory at Annapolis, Maryland in 1974, then again in 1976 by the US Air Force Space Command, who had this to say:


"We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513."

It is an azithumal map. None existed on Earth prior to the 1960s. Why? Because the only way to construct an azithumal map is to be at high altitude. The map was made from 90-105 miles above the Earth's surface with the map's origin or center point at Cairo (Egypt) although one of the civilian employees at the US Naval Observatory who studied the map (and happened to be a Jesuit priest) stated later on a radio show the actual origin point is the Gizeh Plateau (about 30 miles west of Cairo).

The real question is who was capable of sub-orbital flight 500+ years ago.

Well, actually about 8,000 to 10,000 years ago, since that was the last time the western ice shelf was free of ice.

The Orontius Finneaus Map is also an azithumal map taken from a lower orbit, about 80-95 miles above Earth directly over the south pole.

Hapgood believed the map was a copy of 2 or more other maps, and the US Naval Observatory also came to the conclusion that it was at least 3 copies of the same map. I suppose you could reasonably speculate that there were numerous copies of the original map, that those copies became lost, damaged or destroyed, and that someone managed to collect enough copies of the map to make a limited reconstruction (the original map is presumed to be a complete azithumal map of Earth), and they did that several centuries before Admiral Re'is got hold of it.

Ptolemy's Mapus Mundi also shows the coasts of China, South America (the west coast no less) and parts of the Antarctic coast line. It is believed to be an azithumal map as well, but to my knowledge that has not been verified.


Umm the Antarctic ice sheet has existed sense the Pliocene , roughly 5 million years. And you have to think that anything so profound as an exposed polar continent would be the focus of research at the highest levels. ( unless you believe in conspiracies on that magnitude...

There are a number of studies that now dispute that.


Abstract: We present evidence for the absence of the George VI Ice Shelf during a brief period in the mid-Holocene and during one or more earlier interstadials or interglacials. Barnacle Bathylasma corollcorme shells
sampled from ice shelf moraines at Two Step Cliffs on Alexander Island have been dated to c. 5750-6000 cal yr BP(C. 6550-6850 cal yr BP) and imply seasonally open water in the George VI Sound during this period. Other
shells are beyond the range of radiocarbon dating and imply open water during one or more previous interglacial or iiiterstadial period, prior to 40 000 cal yr BP. Our results show that the ongoing collapse of some Antarctic Peninsula ice shelves is not unprecedented.


Unlike the East Antarctic ice sheet, which lies on generally aseismic continental crust that shows little volcanic activity6, the West Antarctic ice sheet (WAIS) lies over a crustal rift that has volcanism on its flanks and associated elevated geothermal heat flux6,7. Indeed, several active volcanoes outcrop above the ice sheet4 and the most recent eruption from these occurred at 7.5 kyr BP (ref. 4). However most of theWAIS is blanketed by a thick ice sheet and so far only a few subglacial volcanic centres have been inferred from geophysical data1,2,8. Most of these are highly eroded and may be relict features8, but one, Mount Casertz, shows signs of recent activity. It has an associated surface depression, indicating high geothermal heat flux1, was the focus of recent earthquake activity9 and is believed to produce subglacial water that is responsible for rapid ice flow nearby3.

The age of the eastern ice sheet has been misinterpreted by the "Stabilists" who claim the ice sheet is over 2 Million years old. The "Dynamists" got it right --- the ice isn't more than 2 Million years old.


E. Middle Miocene to Pliocene (15-2 Ma)
Just how permanent the East Antarctic Ice Sheet has been over
the past fifteen million years has become one of the most contentious
questions debated today among Antarctic specialists.

Here's the evidence for the Dynamicists, which is based on what is known as the Sirius Group of sediments:


For example, non-marine and brackish species from Patagonia, South America, have been recovered in some quantity in ice cores at the South Pole.119 Not well explained by eolian (wind) transport, however, is how marine diatoms, particularly those clumped together in large clusters or
those too large to be entrained by wind, wound up within and not just on the surface of eroding outcrops of the Sirius Group.120


The Sirius Group contains a rather diverse set of thick glacial and stratified sediments (including those from fluvioglacial, glacialmarine, fiord, and lacustrine [lake] environments), that suggest many advances and retreats of inland ice through gaps in the Transantarctic Mountains.121 A wide variety of well-preserved evidence122 (e.g., twigs, leaves, moss, pollen, seeds, and insects) has been put forth to support warmer climates when these deposits were laid down.

For example, the Beardmore Glacier area (Fig. 1) contains finger-sized pieces of mature but stunted Northofagus wood that suggest mean annual temperatures of -12oC,123 which is about 20o C warmer than presently in that area.124

As stated by proponents for the Dynamicist view, “it appears that there were brief intervals during the Pliocene when the refrigerator door was left
open.”136


Obviously about as much as you do. The Pri Reis maps most accurate comparison is to the eastern coast of South America

That isn't a comparison.

An azithumal map must be compared with another azithumal map, not a Mercator Projection, or Conic Scale Projection.

The shapes of the contintents in an azithumal map are highly distorted because you are at high altitude looking down on Earth (a spheroid) and also due to the focal length of the lens used, whether that lens is the human eye or a photo-optic lens for a camera (and yes the distortion will be different for someone with 20/20 vision than someone with 20/80 vision).

The distortion of the continents also varies by location. Look at LOST Season 5 when they're in the Lamp Post, that's an azithumal map, but the origin is probably Latitude 30°n at some longitude, then look at a north polar projection azithumal map then look at the Re'is map.


If we know for a fact that we have a documented 400,000 years of continuous ice pack...

For the eastern ice sheet perhaps. Because of the glacial cycle, the way glaciers themselves work, it is believed that the ice can never be more than 420,000 years old, although ice could have occupied that space for 1 Million+ years.


We compute the age field for the Antarctic ice sheet with both methods for a time-dependent simulation driven by a 242200 year surface temperature history derived from stable isotope data of the Vostok deep ice core, and discuss the differences of the age computation schemes. Emphasis is put on two regions: (i) western Dronning Maud Land (DML), where reconnaissance for a deep ice core within the European Project for Ice Coring in Antarctica (EPICA) is currently carried out, and (ii) the eastern part of central East Antarctica with the deep-ice-core locations Vostok and Dome C (the former completed, the latter currently drilled within EPICA).


The Vostok deep ice core is as deep as it gets, and it only goes back 242,200 years. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the uncorrupted data goes back only 242,200 years. The ice itself is at least 400,000 years old.


During the current interglacial, the grounding line of the West Antarctic ice sheet in the Ross embayment is thought to have receded from the mouth of the Ross Sea to near its present position between 14 000 and 7000 years ago (Thomas & Bentley, 1978; Kellogg & Truesdale, 1979).


Another mysterious aspect to the map-comments, are the 'torn-off notes' near what would be modern-day Nigeria, on the African-coastline;

.... On this shore a tower
.... is however
.... in this climate gold
.... taking a rope
.... is said they measured

Talk-about a brain-teaser...

Are you sure that isn't a quatrain from one of the useless "centuries" in Nostradamus?

[Rabid1]

NOTE TO SELF:
That isn't a comparison.

An azithumal map must be compared with another azithumal map, not a Mercator Projection, or Conic Scale Projection.



That is if you accept that as a theory, not just another example of people taking modern technology or ideas and applying it to older ideas or objects. Unfortunately Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed is not with us to explain how the map came to be written or what source maps he used so "all" of this is just speculation.

[tahn1000]

You made the claim, instead of ranting like a child try to prove it. Crete would no be able to match on more than 4 points. Explain why a map of a known area would have so many notes about unknown things? The maker would be a laughing stock? Why wouldn't Reis simply mark it as a map of Crete since he was known for his maps of the Mediterranean?

well, how many points of reference do you need, rabid? because i'm up to 15. and if anyone cares to look at the larger version, the writing is cursive arabic, and the map dates no earlier than the ottoman empire.

[tahn1000]

i've spent as much time as i am prepared to on this thing. if it isn't enough, then so be it. i can't help what people want to believe. what you're looking at is an ottoman era map, lousily done and really only accurate between turkey and egypt. probably if the ajoining coast was there it would have been better accuracy-wise too.

you will note, i've identified ISLANDS and CITIES.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/tahn2000/Piri_reis_world_map_01-1.jpg

and for good measure, the sailing ships (galleons) of the ottoman empire

http://warandgame.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/galla1500.jpg?w=300
http://ottomanmilitary.devhub.com/img/upload/osmanli_kartpostal_91_1.jpg

you may compare them to the decorative illustrations on the map.

[tahn1000]

NOTE TO SELF: Never let tahn1000 sit in the navigator's seat.
.... at least i'd manage to keep us all on the right side of the planet, which i suspect the us military might fail at...


It was verified by Professor Charles Hapgood of Keene College in 1960, then again by the US Naval Observatory at Annapolis, Maryland in 1974, then again in 1976 by the US Air Force Space Command, who had this to say: "We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513."

[Doc Velocity]

i've spent as much time as i am prepared to on this thing.

Giving up, and yet you haven't learned a thing. Here's a 1513 Piri Reis map of the Mediterranean...

http://forums.armageddononline.org/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=1214

Looks like the Mediterranean is fairly accurately depicted. The other map has nothing to do with the Mediterranean. Case closed.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

well, how many points of reference do you need, rabid? because i'm up to 15. and if anyone cares to look at the larger version, the writing is cursive arabic, and the map dates no earlier than the ottoman empire.

From what I see you are saying 15 things are what you say they are. That is not comparison, that is just stating a claim and drawing on a map. A comparison would be of two maps like the one I referenced above. You also dodged the questions I posed to you, so I will give you a couple more.

When did Christopher Columbus chart Crete? The Reis map notes it used Columbus' charts as reference.






i've spent as much time as i am prepared to on this thing. if it isn't enough, then so be it.


Then allow me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/tahn2000/Piri_reis_world_map_01-1.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/1rabid1/mapmed.jpg


Gee your right, the similarities are spooky! :doh:

[lycanox]

That is a map of the entire European continent. Which are often puzzled together with the aid of other maps. While the other is a detail map of the region.

Its thus fairly unfair to rule out the other because they also had a better map back then.

[tahn1000]

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU PEOPLE WANT? there are SYMBOLS marking the cities, on the piri res map. I DIDN'T HAVE TO MAKE IT UP OR DRAW ANOTHER MAP. it's on that map - a badly hand drawn map - WITH THESE HAND DRAWN SYMBOLS TO MARK CITIES IN EGYPT, ON CYPRUS, AND MUGLA IN TURKEY (which used to be an important city in that era).

the next thing you are going to tell me is that the antarctic, as well as having no ice in some mysterious dark UNCONFIRMED past, "SPOOKILY" also had cities on it. and the american coast had these islands by it and they exactly matched the turkey and cyprus towns.



oh, and rabid - the piri rei map is a hand drawn SAILORS MAP of the eastern half of the mediterranean sea. so why are you comparing it to a modern, computer generated map of the ENTIRE REGION. so you can reinforce your own delusions, perhaps? and the same goes for doc velocity's efforts.

[Goldmoon]

Thanks for all the info. Interesting stuff.

Blessings in the coming times.

[Rabid1]

the next thing you are going to tell me is that the antarctic, as well as having no ice in some mysterious dark UNCONFIRMED past, "SPOOKILY" also had cities on it. and the american coast had these islands by it and they exactly matched the turkey and cyprus towns.



oh, and rabid - the piri rei map is a hand drawn SAILORS MAP of the eastern half of the mediterranean sea. so why are you comparing it to a modern, computer generated map of the ENTIRE REGION. so you can reinforce your own delusions, perhaps? and the same goes for doc velocity's efforts.


Wow when you make stuff up you really go all out. My comparison is a section matched to what you claim the Piri map to be. It is from an original chart, created by J. F Dessiou Master of the Royal Navy, reproduced around 1835. I am pretty sure they didn't have computers back then, unless those pesky assended masters enticed him with an Apple II and a gas genny?? This (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/1rabid1/25422.jpg)would be the entire region.

From Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed himself in the notations:

In this age, no one has seen a map like this. The hand of this poor man [Piri Reis] has drawn it and completed it from about twenty charts and mappaemundi.

But of course you ignore the notations (http://www.turkeyinmaps.com/piri.html) on the map, once again.

Care to show us where the cannibal tribes of the Mediterranean were? How about when Columbus went to Spain to get ships to search for a western trade route to India by going east into the Mediterranean? How did Antillia get in the Med when it was know (believed) to be in the Atlantic, far west of Portugal?

Also since you have missed it. Piri Reis was no doodler his charts were known for accuracy and details. He eventually became the Chief Admiral of the Ottoman Navy.

[Doc Velocity]

and the same goes for doc velocity's efforts.

The map I provided is another Piri Reis map from the SAME YEAR as the mystery map (1513 AD). Why would the Mediterranean and Aegean be PROPERLY depicted in my map but completely distorted and unrecognizable in the mystery map?

Two maps from the same year. By the same cartographer.

Obviously the mystery map DOES NOT depict the eastern Mediterranean, Tahn. Here's a quarter, go buy a good lawyer and sue your public schooling system.

— Doc Velocity

[Reef Badlaw]

Here's a complete translation of every notated-comment on the map;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/pirikey.htm

[tahn1000]

The map I provided is another Piri Reis map from the SAME YEAR as the mystery map (1513 AD). Why would the Mediterranean and Aegean be PROPERLY depicted in my map but completely distorted and unrecognizable in the mystery map?

Two maps from the same year. By the same cartographer.

Obviously the mystery map DOES NOT depict the eastern Mediterranean, Tahn. Here's a quarter, go buy a good lawyer and sue your public schooling system.

— Doc Velocity

perhaps you are not aware the piri reis MEANS SEA CAPTAIN. so there is nothing conclusive to be drawn by the claim that they are both piri reis maps. and i KNOW the map depicts greece and italy - just not the least bit accurately. whoever drew the map joined the two peninsulars together for a start.

assuming Ibn Haji Mehmed isn't a common name - there is the only other surviving map attributed to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis


Here's a complete translation of every notated-comment on the map;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/pirikey.htm

and rabid - DON'T READ THE ABOVE LINK!

"IV. This map was drawn by Piri Ibn Haji Mehmed, known as the nephew of Kemal Reis, in Gallipoli, in the month of muharrem of the year 919 (that is, between the 9th of March and the 7th of April of the year 1513)."

so, NO CHANCE of antartica being without ice.


besides, both of you have AVOIDED the issue of the the islands and CITIES which were marked by symbols AND IDENTIFIED by me on the map.

[Doc Velocity]

so there is nothing conclusive to be drawn by the claim that they are both piri reis maps. and i KNOW the map depicts greece and italy - just not the least bit accurately. whoever drew the map joined the two peninsulars together for a start.[/URL]

No, you're saying that two contemporary maps of the eastern Mediterranean don't even remotely resemble each other.

In the map I supplied, the Mediterranean and Aegean are quite well depicted. I'm saying that Mediterranean cartographers of the year 1513 were WELL ACQUAINTED with the contours of the Med and Aegean Seas.

So WHY would a Mediterranean cartographer in the year 1513 INTENTIONALLY draw up an unrecognizable map of the Med and Aegean?

Your argument doesn't make sense.

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

cartographer..... did you not see that piri reis means "SEA CAPTAIN". not a cartographer, just a captain of the sea. it's a HAND DRAWN map, clearly, and probably for his own travels only.

NOW, come up with a story about why the cities and islands i have identified match if it really is the american coastline.

[Doc Velocity]

cartographer..... did you not see that piri reis means "SEA CAPTAIN". not a cartographer, just a captain of the sea. it's a HAND DRAWN map, clearly, and probably for his own travels only.

Maybe this is too hard for you... Anyone who draws maps, regardless of their other ventures, is a cartographer practicing cartography, and especially when those maps are to be used repeatedly for purposes of trade, okay, they must mesh at least marginally with other maps of the age. There must be a point-to-point relationship, yes?

Otherwise the map is useless.

No, the mystery map does not even come close to being a useful representation of the eastern Mediterranean. You would be hopelessly LOST in the Med if you used this map.

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

yeah, but there's those that draw from memory, and those trained to actually draw maps. i think SEA CAPTAINS would fall into the former catagory, don't you?


AND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, i used it to identify all those towns and islands, didn't i? what do you mean "useless". YOU might get lost, without any sea faring experience and expecting to hit south america.

[Rabid1]

perhaps you are not aware the piri reis MEANS SEA CAPTAIN. so there is nothing conclusive to be drawn by the claim that they are both piri reis maps. and i KNOW the map depicts greece and italy - just not the least bit accurately. whoever drew the map joined the two peninsulars together for a start.

assuming Ibn Haji Mehmed isn't a common name - there is the only other surviving map attributed to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis



and rabid - DON'T READ THE ABOVE LINK!

"IV. This map was drawn by Piri Ibn Haji Mehmed, known as the nephew of Kemal Reis, in Gallipoli, in the month of muharrem of the year 919 (that is, between the 9th of March and the 7th of April of the year 1513)."

so, NO CHANCE of antartica being without ice.


besides, both of you have AVOIDED the issue of the the islands and CITIES which were marked by symbols AND IDENTIFIED by me on the map.

As useless as your entire quote is I had to leave it in as evidence to how thick you really are.

I guess the first thing is I never claimed this map to be of Antarctica, that to me is a silly as the Mediterranean. Well thinking that it's a map of the Med is way on top. I never avoided your claim of the cities and landmarks. I stated that all you have done is drawn things on map and claimed them to be something. Anyone could take a coastal map and do the same thingbecause guess what? Coast lines have inlets and bays and islands that if you really stretch your imagination can be strikingly similar, although this is not the case here. When shown a comparison that shows your interpretation in no way fits the geography you claim you simply stamp your feet and claim you are still right because it was poorly drawn. The only avoidance going on her is you, again, refusing to try to explain how the notations on the map fit your theory. Mainly because you can't but that doesn't make them go away.

Now from your own link:

Piri Reis (full name Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed, reis/rais is Turkish for captain) was an Ottoman Kaptan-ı Derya, geographer and cartographer born between 1465 and 1470 and died in 1554 or 1555. He is primarily known today for his maps and charts collected in his Kitab-ı Bahriye (Book of Navigation), a book which contains detailed information on navigation as well as very accurate for its time charts describing the important ports and cities of the Mediterranean Sea.(comment insert: could that be DOC's map?? Impossible, right?) He gained fame as a cartographer when a small part of his first world map (prepared in 1513) was discovered in 1929 at Topkapı Palace in Istanbul. His world map is the oldest known Turkish atlas showing the New World, and one of the oldest maps of America still in existence in the world.


What's that? America? How embarrassed are all those scholars going to be when they know Tahn has proven them wrong!!!

Notice the caption of the comparison?


Comparison between a modern projection of South America and Piri Reis's version. Wow, really?

Once again, just like other topics you argue you point on "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" which just doesn't cut it. Your own link says you are wrong.

[Fut004]

Once again, just like other topics you argue you point on "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" which just doesn't cut it. Your own link says you are wrong.

Nicely done, Rabid.
I just wanted to quote that in hopes that Tahn will read it again, and it'll actually sink in.

[tahn1000]

except you dickheads STILL have't identified ANYWHERE that the piri reis map identified CITIES AND ISLANDS on or near by the so- called america, HAVE YOU. and you can't, either. BECAUSE IT ISN'T A MAP OF THE AMERICAN COASTLINE.

[tahn1000]

You made the claim, instead of ranting like a child try to prove it. Crete would no be able to match on more than 4 points. Explain why a map of a known area would have so many notes about unknown things? The maker would be a laughing stock? Why wouldn't Reis simply mark it as a map of Crete since he was known for his maps of the Mediterranean?

you laid down the gauntlet, vapid. i answered. now lets see you do the same.

[Rabid1]

except you dickheads STILL have't identified ANYWHERE that the piri reis map identified CITIES AND ISLANDS on or near by the so- called america, HAVE YOU. and you can't, either. BECAUSE IT ISN'T A MAP OF THE AMERICAN COASTLINE.

There are no cities on the map you only assume they are, by ignoring the notations on the map.


you laid down the gauntlet, vapid. i answered. now lets see you do the same.

No you haven't answered any questions about what the map says and what you imagine it is. Again where were the cannibal tribes of the med around Greece and Italy at that time? Why would a known respected cartographer make such a crappy map?

BUT I think I know why you refuse to try to answer

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/1rabid1/troll.jpg

[Reef Badlaw]

Yep... just interjecting that Archimedes was still a pretty big influence in 1512. -And the Antikythera mechanism, salvaged from the Aegean in 1901, probably containing as many as 72 gears/dials, could be set to track every year-cycle known to civilization, could predicts the positions of the moon/Mars/Venus, contained the Greek Zodiac-positions, calculated eclipses, and even predicted the future dates of the Olympics. It was probably constructed within 100-to-150 BCE. I forget when Archimedes went wreathe city... 210 BCE?

Some scholars think that the Antikythera-mechanism was a duplicate of Arch's own original design, which may've perished when Rhoads was thrashed. So by 1490, map-making wasn't exactly a rainy-day coloring-book experiment.

[tahn1000]

just shows how much of an idiot you are vapid, and just as vacuous when it comes to backing up your claims. you CAN'T identify even a single island as being one off the american coast, can you?

and there are symbols, marked on the map, which AS I HAVE IDENTIFIED as part of OVER 25 POINTS OF REFERENCE - whereas you can't even come up with one - which you (and i can only assume it's because you don't want to see them as they are blatently obvious) refuse to accept because then you would be wrong, wouldn't you?

[Rabid1]

just shows how much of an idiot you are vapid, and just as vacuous when it comes to backing up your claims. you CAN'T identify even a single island as being one off the american coast, can you?

and there are symbols, marked on the map, which AS I HAVE IDENTIFIED as part of OVER 25 POINTS OF REFERENCE - whereas you can't even come up with one - which you (and i can only assume it's because you don't want to see them as they are blatently obvious) refuse to accept because then you would be wrong, wouldn't you?


LOL Ok maybe aliens have been messing with your brain because that is starting to look like the only explanation for your thought process. :abduct:

Again you completely ignore the notations on the map, ignore that what you tried to link previously says your wrong, and try to blame all that on me being wrong. Sure Thing, well not really. You keep blabbing about the symbols you have identified but the notations already explain those areas and more yet you refuse to acknowledge that. Because then you would have to explain things like when did the Turkey live naked, When the Ionian Sea was called the Mare d'Espagna, or when did Columbus look for the new world in the Mediterranean?

You have tried attacking the map maker :eek: , posted a link as proof of your idea being correct :huh?: , and yet you continue.

But still you are correct to a party of one so that must mean something. :schizo:

[tahn1000]

rabid - put up or shut up. YOU'RE the one who challenged me to identify features on the map - and i did.

stop your squealing and do the same - if you can.

[Rabid1]

rabid - put up or shut up. YOU'RE the one who challenged me to identify features on the map - and i did.

stop your squealing and do the same - if you can.

It has already been done. The links to the translations, to the maps wiki all show you are wrong. You have yet to address/explain any of the notations or explain how they could possible fit your idea of the map. They are there, you cannot ignore them. Do you really believe anyone would think you are the only person on the planet to see this and would accept you erroneous interpretation as reality?

You made a claim, you assigned value to things on a map that already had value by the cartographer, you ignore the fact that the map is a compilation of many other maps and then choose to ignore the references from that to the new world.

You simply have proven once again there are people who want to believe something regardless of reality.

But please http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYQX_fXdiHUoy7kO8awENsDD7VtdxwZ fCFNL94dQf0dJIEnfvN Keep trollin' trollin' trollin'

[tahn1000]

name the islands, loser. see if you can!

[Rabid1]

name the islands, loser. see if you can!

What you want me to make up names like you did? Ok One is Tahiti, one is Tonga, and one is Kaua'i. Do I need to pick certain ones off the map to match the names? I could use Coney too.

Now since you still don't get it, you never made a comparison you wrote on a map and called it what you want it to be, with no comparison to any other map. When reproductions of original maps were shown to you in respect to your claim in comparison, they don't match up at all. Yet you claim then that the Piri Reis map is poorly drawn map and tried to claim those reference maps were computer drawn, rather than accept you idea doesn't work. You can't or won't produce comparison so instead you deny.

From the comparison I posted Piri against South America we will number the dots 1 - 14

1 Dominican Republic
2 Puerto Rico
3 Could be San Lucia or Martinique
4 Trinidad
5 Mouth of the River Corentyne Guyana
6 Mouth of the Amazon/Amazon Delta
7 Bay of San Marcos
8 Roughly the Ponta do Seixas in what is now Paraiba
9 Rio De La Plata
10 Rio Negro
11 Valdes Peninsula
12 Puerto Deseado
13 Falkland Islands
14 Mitre Peninsula/Le Maire Straight

Another thing about this piece of his world map. He says he used multiple older charts as source material which can be seen in the Caribbean because it has the same errors as Columbus' charts, What some people take as possibly Cuba is more likely the Southern tip of Florida, once assumed to be an island.

[tahn1000]

MAP, dipshit!

i can run off a list of names too. but i didn't. I POINTED OUT WERE THEY WERE IN THE MAP. now you do the same.

[Rabid1]

MAP, dipshit!

i can run off a list of names too. but i didn't. I POINTED OUT WERE THEY WERE IN THE MAP. now you do the same.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Seriously????




From the comparison I posted Piri against South America we will number the dots 1 - 14

1 Dominican Republic
2 Puerto Rico
3 Could be San Lucia or Martinique
4 Trinidad
5 Mouth of the River Corentyne Guyana
6 Mouth of the Amazon/Amazon Delta
7 Bay of San Marcos
8 Roughly the Ponta do Seixas in what is now Paraiba
9 Rio De La Plata
10 Rio Negro
11 Valdes Peninsula
12 Puerto Deseado
13 Falkland Islands
14 Mitre Peninsula/Le Maire Straight



OK OK OK!

I will type this slow for you:
T..a..h..n.........I......p..o..s..t..e..d......a. .....m..a..p......t..h..a..t......s..h..o..w..e..d ......p..o..i..n..t..s......o..f......c..o..m..p.. a..r..i..s..o..n......b..e..t..w..e..e..n......S.. o..u..t..h......A..m..e..r..i..c..a......a..n..d.. ....t..h..e......P..i..r..i..m..a..p...../stop

T..h..e......l..i..t..t..l..e......r..e..d......d. .o..t..s......w..i..t..h......l..i..n..e..s......b ..e..t..w..e..e..n......t..h..e..m......a..r..e... ...t..h..e.....d..o..t..s......I......a..m......t. .a..l..k..i..n..g......a..b..o..u.t...../stop

I..f......y..o..u......s..t..a..r..t......f..r..o. .m......t..h..e......t..o..p......a..n..d......w.. o..r..k......y..o..u..r......w..a..y......d..o..w. .n......i..t......w..i..l..l......h..e..l..p...../stop

[tahn1000]

which map are you referring to????

[tahn1000]

oh i see. you are not attempting to actually identify islands, nor any of city symbols. just hazarding a guess and playing "pin the donkey".

[Rabid1]

oh i see. you are not attempting to actually identify islands, nor any of city symbols. just hazarding a guess and playing "pin the donkey".

"pin the donkey"? Is that some Aussie sex thing? Instead of obsessing over the Caribbean I used the same comparison map points and identified them with Google Earth, using the whole continent something that will not hold up in your "idea". Would it really be necessary to list the islands between points 2 and 3? Like SE from 3 (notice I didn't ignore the legend and turn the map on it's side ignoring north?) would likely be the Virgin Islands, Anguilla, St Kitts, Antigua, Quadelupe, and Dominica. West from those you can see Jamaica and likely the coasts of Honduras and Nicaraqua. Again the scale is off similar to Columbus charts which were part of the reference material Reis used to make his world map. Do not forget (tho' I am sure you will choose to ignore) that this was part of a larger world map.

Now you have still yet to show a comparison, refute or even acknowledge the notes describing the locations, and ignored the opinion of your own link that says you are wrong. While on par for you it does not prove a thing in your favor. You still remain a convinced party of one, unless the voices in your head agree with the rest of the world.

[tahn1000]

bullshit!!

firstly, saying some island could be referring to this, or that, or that, or that IS NOT PROVING POINTS OF REFERENCE AT ALL.

secondly i EXACTLY identified both cities and islands. and you are yet to do the same - because you can't.

[tahn1000]

oh, and by the way, those symbols on the map which you CONTINUE to live in denial of? well i've made you a legend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/tahn2000/pirilegend.jpg

study it in good health.

[Rabid1]

bullshit!!

firstly, saying some island could be referring to this, or that, or that, or that IS NOT PROVING POINTS OF REFERENCE AT ALL.

secondly i EXACTLY identified both cities and islands. and you are yet to do the same - because you can't.

Do you understand comparison? The word or concept? Because you have yet to do that once. I can see exactly is something you misunderstand.

Yes you marked some spots on the map and claimed them to be something. Yet you still have not compared them to the real thing. You haven't even tried. Both my section of a Mediterranean chart and Doc's chart from the same cartographer show it is not possible. If it is, prove us wrong.



Definitions of comparison:

the act of examining resemblances; "they made a comparison of noise levels"; "the fractions selected for comparison must require pupils to consider both numerator and denominator"

relation based on similarities and differences

qualities that are comparable; "no comparison between the two books"; "beyond compare"





firstly, saying some island could be referring to this, or that, or that, or that IS NOT PROVING POINTS OF REFERENCE AT ALL. (edit: you mean like you did?)


When you have to pee do you have to ask someone how to find your own bathroom? If you can't look at the comparison (there is that word you are choking on again) map I posted and look SE between 2 given points or west from same then you are being deliberately dumb or are hopeless. I gave you the points and the names of the islands in order.

[tahn1000]

you gave squat, vapid. i've both interpreted the map, understood and provided the legend by which cities were identified on the map, and to make it incredibly easy for anyone to understand i've taken that same map, and identified by letters and numbers actual locations which can be verified and confirmed using any other map or reference book.

[Rabid1]

you gave squat, vapid. i've both interpreted the map, understood and provided the legend by which cities were identified on the map, and to make it incredibly easy for anyone to understand i've taken that same map, and identified by letters and numbers actual locations which can be verified and confirmed using any other map or reference book.


Yes you have and you have done it by taking a map, turning it 90' ignoring north, and creating a map that cannot compare in any way to any map of the region including one written by the same cartographer, nor can you come up with any reason why he would make a copy that cannot match up except in your mind. You refuse explain why you ignore the notes on the map nor explain them in any way. You are like watching a retard eat Nitro Wings, funny at first, but ultimately sad.

If I ignore the established north on a map I can do the same thing you did but at least I could take an image of a map and it would reasonably fit, with no made up excuses that the cartographer had a bad day.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/1rabid1/mymap.jpg

Notice I even gave "a comparison" map as reference.

But in reality the map I used was South Carolina's South East border, I didn't even need a coastline.

http://www.theusaonline.com/states/images/state-outline-maps/southcarolina-outline.gif

[Doc Velocity]

Yes you have and you have done it by taking a map, turning it 90' ignoring noBut in reality the map I used was South Carolina's South East border, I didn't even need a coastline.

http://www.theusaonline.com/states/images/state-outline-maps/southcarolina-outline.gif

I call RACISM!!..... because you depict South Carolina as all white.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

I call RACISM!!..... because you depict South Carolina as all white.

— Doc Velocity


It's black around the edges.....

[tahn1000]

Yes you have and you have done it by taking a map, turning it 90' ignoring north,

and just how is north marked on that map, vapid? you only ASSUME where north is to suit your own empty argument.

[Rabid1]

and just how is north marked on that map, vapid? you only ASSUME where north is to suit your own empty argument.

Because of the orientation of Reis own hand written legend, the fact that there is no mystery to this map it is know to be part of his first world map, that has only been debated by you ( literally you are the only person on the planet determined it is of the Mediterranean ), and the orientation of the legend at the bottom left corner of the map with the small arrow indicating north at the top that was added sometime after the entire map was presented to the Sultan.

I was really hoping you would actually read some of the evidence given but as usual you just ignore what you don't to believe is real. This was presented in other evidence you chose to ignore and I was really hoping you would catch it, but how does 95 points of reference showing the amazing accuracy Ries achieved in a compilation of an area he had never been to.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/pirigrid3.gif

[tahn1000]

EXCEPT.... that doesn't explain the cities in the supposed "west africa". and that fact that the so-called region of CUBA in reality is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE THE PIRI MAP. in fact NONE of the islands are geographically similar, and the GULF OF MEXICO isn't even there. what's more, none of the rivers match either, including the west african rivers. anyone with a modern atlas can see that even taking in consideration the exaggeration of the coast line NOTHING MATCHES.

and what "legend", exactly, are you talking about?

[Rabid1]

and that fact that the so-called region of CUBA in reality is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE THE PIRI MAP. in fact NONE of the islands are geographically similar, and the GULF OF MEXICO isn't even there.

This gave me a good chuckle as you map looks nothing at all like the geographical region yet you use this as an argument? I guess 95 points of reference, come even in West Africa, laid out in grids using rough longitude and latitude are just someones whimsy. You must live in a constant state of denial.



and what "legend", exactly, are you talking about?


If you don't bother to read the material given or understand the topic maybe you should just let the adults talk.


Legend
An explanatory table or list of the symbols appearing on a map or chart.

The legend is written by Reis and marked with Roman Numerals describing the various locations and how the map came about written to be read with the orientation of north.

This is a portolan map made from a compilation of older chart of a largely unexplored region of the world. I have referred to and the source material states that common errors can be seen in certain of these maps. Given what he worked with Reis results are almost miraculous. Some maps of the era depicted the gulf as open sea and a path to the Orient. Others Florida was an island. Reis achieved a more than reasonable scale given his source material.

Here are examples of charts and maps from that time. I don;t think any of them were source material for Reis but most people will get it.


http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/310.jpeg

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/307.jpg

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/309.JPG

[tahn1000]

stop trying to be clever (because you're failing miserably) and point out where the legend which shows "north" is on the piri reis map. i'm sure you have some kind of paint or image program - USE IT.

your other attempts at defending the impossible i will ignore for now, it's hard to argue against nonsense.

[Rabid1]

stop trying to be clever (because you're failing miserably) and point out where the legend which shows "north" is on the piri reis map. i'm sure you have some kind of paint or image program - USE IT.

your other attempts at defending the impossible i will ignore for now, it's hard to argue against nonsense.


You know you are either

http://moderateleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/failedtroll.jpg

or

http://files.sharenator.com/super_retard_Dont_laugh-s460x347-39636.jpg

It get's tiring spoon feeding a troll. If you cannot see the legend on the bottom or Reis hand written legend then it is not my problem. I apologize if I don;t speak delusional well.

[tahn1000]

you never can give a straight answer, can you? it's always childish insults from you.

[Rabid1]

you never can give a straight answer, can you? it's always childish insults from you.

A normal person wouldn't need a straight answer or make so many demands while dodging anything asked of them.

Tell me you can't see the handwritten legend on the left or the legend at the bottom? Also notice the compass symbols in the ocean? Notice the darker heavy line at the 12 O'clock point?


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj22/ciscojer/pirireis.jpg

[crclever]

I see them too Rapid. This is a map of the eastern coast of south america and western africa. Tahn1000, i looked at the map the way you did and i could see what you were talking about . turned sideways like that the africa bulge does resemble lybia and the nile delta, but i see nothing that resembles greece or italy in any way shape or form. i think Tahn that you should agree to disagree. you have your opinion and we have ours. that's the nice thing about sites like this, we can each express our differing opinions in an open manner as long as we are nice about it.

[TC]

Well we have isotope studies that can be within 99% of being correct. And with these studies we can effectively date the polar ice to around 140,000 years, this is also backed by the layers of volcanic ash and dust within the ice that has been dated to coincide with known geological dates regarding eruptions. Big point here.

Ice compresses in depth, to the point that effective dating becomes impossible to verify, thus the realm of factual dates being limited to around 140,000 years. And unbroken core samples show an uninterrupted ice sheet that dates within these parameters.

To be fair in this assessment, the distance ice sheets have traveled during the last 50,000 years is calculated into the dating to be sure any given core is an uninterrupted and continuous composite.

So within these established dates, we can be quite positive that no exposed land surface could have existed after the 50,000 year boundary, as the last glacial maximum was coming into full effect, lasting right up to the late Pleistocene/ Holocene era.

The current location of the antarctic ice sheets is roughly the same as it existed during the early Holocene ( age of man) even with the little ice age period during the middle ages which showed a marginal expansion of continental ice.

So the Holocene period (age of man) would have a continuous ice sheet covering the antarctic continental surface. If one is suggesting a map drawn during the last 50,000 years, being accredited to an "extraterrestrial" view of continental shoreline, then one should know that during this period, that sea levels would have been some 100 meters ( 300ft) lower, due to the massive volume of water needed to create the continental ice sheets. An entirely different coastal outline would have existed.

[Rockytrawn]

There have been lots of suggestions about migration from Europe to the Americas, but I have always wondered about it going the other way - there are prehistoric shell mound burials with red pigment over the site of the body along both the Americas and the coasts of northern Europe. Horses supposedly began their evolution in the Americas and then end up in Europe, Africa and Asia, along with elephants etc. I suspect humans were much more adept at travel then they are given credit for.


Also, Columbus was using maps from the Vatican Library, and his Nagivators included the Pinson' brothers who were map makers, from Portugoal under Henry the Navigator. they came up with the 'orange peel' view that lead to the concept of a globe.. They continued to explore and make maps of the coast of South America after Columbus settled down back in Spain... They could not have contributed to the Anarctic maps...but it would be worth checking out the Vatican chart rooms to see just how old some of their collection is...