Genocides of the past and present...

[Hoodlum]

Ive been doing aproject in school on other Genocides besides Nazi Germany and i have been researching Guatemala. I dunno about you guys but before this i havent heard much about this because like other Genocides, have been covered up or been hushed by the media. Nanking, Nanjing, Guatemala, Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia and many others have occured and i havent heard much about them.

I found this topic to be extremely disturbing and wondered, why or how could any person go through with this?

"Children were often beaten against walls, or thrown alive into pits where the bodies of adults were later thrown; they were also tortured and raped. Victims of all ages often had their limbs amputated, or were impaled and left to die slowly. Others were doused in petrol and set alight, or disembowelled while still alive. Yet others were shot repeatedly, or tortured and shut up alone to die in pain. The wombs of pregnant women were cut open. Women were routinely raped while being tortured."

"One 10-year-old Mayan boy, holding his baby brother, was accosted by a patroller, a man from a nearby town: 'I'm taking you back home to work for me. But the baby can't come, he's too small.' Then the man sliced the infant in two."

"It is estimated that up to 200,000 people were killed between 1966 and 1990, including the many thousands who died or 'disappeared' in the genocide of Mayan Indians."

Another extremely ANGERING thing i discovered was that the United States had known about this occuring and did nothing to stop it, in fact they helped with the process...

"Throughout the period of the genocide, the USA continued to provide military support to the Guatemalan government, mainly in the form of arms and equipment. The infamous guerrilla training school, the School of the Americas in Georgia USA, continued to train Guatemalan officers notorious for human rights abuses; the CIA worked with Guatemalan intelligence officers, some of whom were on the CIA payroll despite known human rights violations. US involvement was understood to be strategic - or, put another way, indifferent to the fate of a bunch of Indians - in the wider context of the Cold War and anti-Communist action."

I wonder day by day, what could we do about such things? Please help me with this...


(Source) http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_guatemala1.html

[dutchie]

"Throughout the period of the genocide, the USA continued to provide military support to the Guatemalan government, mainly in the form of arms and equipment. The infamous guerrilla training school, the School of the Americas in Georgia USA, continued to train Guatemalan officers notorious for human rights abuses; the CIA worked with Guatemalan intelligence officers, some of whom were on the CIA payroll despite known human rights violations. US involvement was understood to be strategic - or, put another way, indifferent to the fate of a bunch of Indians - in the wider context of the Cold War and anti-Communist action."
Oh what a GREAT COUNTRY.... :eww:

Over a million died in Cambodia under Pol Pot, over 20 million (20,000,000) russians died by the hands of Germans.

How many native Americans died?

It's a mad world. :bncry:

[Hoodlum]

Its so hard to understand how these things could ever happen? Do people find happiness in killing people brutally? If you think about YOUR OWN life and how significant it is, and you family and loved ones imagine millions of those significant lives ripped apart in a bloody gory messy massacre...

its almost impossible to think about it, because those are just numbers, but try to think of 20,000,000 bodies or 1,000,000 tortured murdered cambodians

what hope is there my friends?

[Hoodlum]

[quote]How many native Americans died?[quote]


"By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand."

Of course the United States plays this off and says that it was caused naturally by poor diets or their own demise...

How ****ing sickening!

[dutchie]

That makes them roughly twice as bad as the Germans.... You'd never imagine something like that, would you?

You paint a powerful picture, Hoodlum. And it is true, of course. By default there is NO difference between the most powerful and rich person in this world or a beggar from the slums of Bogota. In the end we leave this world with exactly the same luggage, our Soul. If I am not mistaken, someone on the board has this in his or her signature.

[Hoodlum]

Well i thank you dutchie for your feelings toward my thread. I really agree with you on the matter of the soul, were all exactly alike. Ill post more later.

[lotrfan55345]

... To add to this a little bit, we are studiing "Minnesota History" (my state) and there is just roughly one paragraph about the treatment to the indians out of a 250 paged textbook. :bs:

[lazserus]

Oh what a GREAT COUNTRY....
There's no winning with Europeans. It's either "stay out of everyone's business" or "help the rest of the world". I wish people would make up their minds. No offense, of course. It's just like that here. We have people in our own country who piss and moan that we're not helping other people and then when we do, we're fighting an "unjust war".

Hoodlum, you forgot about Kosovo and Bosnia. Both countries had genocide problems and the US stepped in and tamed things. Hell, we're still in both places now keeping the peace. It was a religious based genocide in Kosovo and a tribal in Africa. Genocide in Africa is as common as smoking reefer in Amsterdam. It's very sad. My girlfriend grew up in Africa and she tells me stories all the time about it.

On the Native Americans -- over 80% were slaughter by Europeans. The Americans didn't finish them off until almost 100 years after the Revolutionary War. A very large chunk of American Indians were slaughtered by the Spanish Catholics.

[dutchie]

There's no winning with Europeans. It's either "stay out of everyone's business" or "help the rest of the world". I wish people would make up their minds. No offense, of course. It's just like that here. We have people in our own country who piss and moan that we're not helping other people and then when we do, we're fighting an "unjust war".

No no Laz, you got me all wrong; the sarcasm was directed at a thread by the title "America is the best country in the world". I was merely mocking the absurd and senseless superiority that was displayed there...


Hoodlum, you forgot about Kosovo and Bosnia. Both countries had genocide problems and the US stepped in and tamed things. Hell, we're still in both places now keeping the peace. It was a religious based genocide in Kosovo and a tribal in Africa. Genocide in Africa is as common as smoking reefer in Amsterdam. It's very sad. My girlfriend grew up in Africa and she tells me stories all the time about it.

On the Native Americans -- over 80% were slaughter by Europeans. The Americans didn't finish them off until almost 100 years after the Revolutionary War. A very large chunk of American Indians were slaughtered by the Spanish Catholics.
That's a strange statement: the majority of Americans are Europeans by ancestry... It is very a opportunistic attitude to claim "we're Americans" when world domination is the issue, and then declare yourself to be "Europeans" when it's about the annihilation of all native Americans...
It is a shame you don't get into that thing about the Mayans... What were the Americans at that moment, Europeans or Americans???
:bs: :grin

[lazserus]

I understand that all Americans are Europeans by ancestry, but all Europeans are African by ancestry. We can play the ancestry game back to star dust and get no where.

It is very a opportunistic attitude to claim "we're Americans" when world domination is the issue, and then declare yourself to be "Europeans" when it's about the annihilation of all native Americans...
You've got it all wrong. Majority of the Native American population had been cut down by the Spanish and the French. Majority were Spanish. I can call them Europeans because America wasn't settled yet, thus there were no such thing as Americans. The genocide started with settling Catholic Europeans. However, what's worse is that even after we Americans became a sovereign nation, to separate from the Europeans, we followed the European path and continued where they started almost 400 years earlier. We, too aided in the destruction of the American Indian. Where do we draw the line between American and European? When we won our freedom from the British -- that would be the simplest. Are the Scottish not worthy of being called Scotsman? They were, of course, Norse by ancestry.

[SeekNDestroy]

And the English contain plenty of French and German blood (shudders).

Seriously guys, what does it matter who killed all those native Americans? It was none of us, and it doesn't make us any better if people from another country did it. None of us is responsible for things before we were born.

[dutchie]

I guess you could not be more right, Mike. :D

[lotrfan55345]

BUT, in my viewm we should view the "slaughtering" wrong. It seems my classmates dont care a lick about that... though it could just be blamed on youth ignorance. :bounce:

[Hoodlum]

well its not wether we worry about the past but fight agaionst any form of this we ever find. The biggest problem is these occurances are kept in a hush. I dont know what we could ever do, because there are so many ignorant assholes that like to make up a dream and say, Ohh that isnt happening or Oh that never happened, to block it all out just so they can feel better about the world but the truth is the world is a horrible place, not to mention the US Government, you have to accept it, and its just going to get worse. Thats where we have to come in. Fight against whats wrong whether it be with violence (fire vs fire) or words.

Another boggling statement, when you are dying in the future from lack of resources, so our others , would it be wrong to kill another for your own benefit? or should everyone resort to self sacrifice.

Deep sad thoughts... :nono:

[SeekNDestroy]

well its not wether we worry about the past but fight agaionst any form of this we ever find. The biggest problem is these occurances are kept in a hush How do you mean? Find one person that hasn't heard of the holocaust. It's not at all hard to find out about these things if you're interested.

[lotrfan55345]

if you're interested

No one is. :bncry:

[Godsgifttomankind]

This is a part of a presentation prepared by the governing body of the Baha'i Faith. It is entitled 'The Century of Light' the portion that I have chosen deals particularly with Genocide and in particular the Holocaust. The whole article talks about the preparations of the last century, the calamity and it's causes and to present an understanding of were the world is going. I apologize that it is a little long.

God Himself has indeed been dethroned from the hearts of men, and an idolatrous world passionately and clamorously hails and worships the false gods which its own idle fancies have fatuously created, and its misguided hands so impiously exalted.... Their high priests are the politicians and the worldly-wise, the so-called sages of the age; their sacrifice, the flesh and blood of the slaughtered multitudes; their incantations, outworn shibboleths and insidious and irreverent formulas; their incense, the smoke of anguish that ascends from the lacerated hearts of the bereaved, the maimed, and the homeless.79

5.37
Like opportunistic infections, aggressive ideologies took advantage of the situation created by the decline of religious vitality. Although indistinguishable from one another in the corruption of faith they represented, the three belief systems that played a dominant role in human affairs during the twentieth century differed sharply in their secondary and more conspicuous characteristics to which the Guardian drew attention. In denouncing "the dark, the false, and crooked doctrines" that would bring devastation on "any man or people who believes in them", Shoghi Effendi warned particularly against "the triple gods of Nationalism, Racialism and Communism".80

5.38
Of Fascism's founding regime, created by the so-called "March on Rome" in 1922, little need be said. Long before it and its leader had been swept into oblivion during the concluding months of the second world war, Fascism had become an object of ridicule among the majority of even those who had originally supported it. Its significance lies, rather, in the host of imitators it spawned and which were to proliferate throughout the world like some malignant series of mutations, in the decades since then. Fuelled by a manic nationalism, this aberration 61 of the human spirit deified the state, discovered everywhere imaginary threats to the national survival of whatever unhappy people it had fastened upon, and preached to all who would listen the notion that war has an "ennobling" influence on the human soul. The comic opera parade of uniforms, jackboots, banners and trumpets usually associated with it should not conceal from a contemporary observer the virulent legacy it has left in our own age, enshrining in political vocabulary such anguished terms as desaparecidos ("the disappeared").

5.39
While sharing Fascism's idolatry of the state, its sister ideology Naziism made itself the voice of a far more ancient and insidious perversion. At its dark heart was an obsession with what its proponents called "race purity". The single-minded determination with which it pursued its murderous ends was in no way weakened by the demonstrably false postulates upon which it was based. The Nazi system was unique in the sheer bestiality of the act most commonly associated with its name, the programme of genocide systematically carried out against populations considered either valueless or harmful to humanity's future, a programme that included a deliberate attempt literally to exterminate the entire Jewish people. Ultimately, it was Naziism's determination that a "master race" of its own conception must rule over the entire planet which was principally responsible for fulfilling 'Abdu'l-Bahá's prophetic warning of twenty years earlier that another war, far more terrible than the first, would ravage the world. Like Fascism, Naziism has left a detritus in our own time. In its case, this takes the form of a language and symbols through which fringe elements in present-day society, demoralized by the economic and social decay around them and made desperate by the absence of solutions, vent their impotent rage on minorities whom they blame for their disappointments.

5.40
The false god that the Master was moved to identify explicitly, and the one denounced by name by Shoghi Effendi, had demonstrated its character at its outset by brutally destroying, during the latter part of World War I, the first democratic government ever established in Russia. For long years, the Soviet system created by Vladimir Lenin succeeded in representing itself to many as a benefactor of humankind and the champion of social justice. In the light of historical events, such 62 pretensions were grotesque. The documentation now available provides irrefutable evidence of crimes so enormous and follies so abysmal as to have no parallel in the six thousand years of recorded history. To a degree never before imagined, let alone attempted, the Leninist conspiracy against human nature also sought systematically to extinguish faith in God. Whatever view of the situation political theorists may currently hold, no one can be surprised that such deliberate violence to the roots of human motivation led inexorably to the economic and political ruin of those societies luckless enough to fall under Soviet sway. Its longer-term spiritual effect, tragically, was to pervert to the service of its own amoral agenda the legitimate yearnings for freedom and justice of subject peoples throughout the world.

5.41
From a Bahá'í point of view, humanity's worship of idols of its own invention is of importance not because of the historical events associated with these forces, however horrifying, but because of the lesson it taught. Looking back on the twilight world in which such diabolical forces loomed over humanity's future, one must ask what was the weakness in human nature that rendered it vulnerable to such influences. To have seen in someone like Benito Mussolini the figure of a "Man of Destiny", to have felt obliged to understand the racial theories of Adolf Hitler as anything other than the self-evident products of a diseased mind, to have seriously entertained the reinterpretation of human experience through dogmas that had given birth to the Soviet Union of Josef Stalin -- so wilful an abandonment of reason on the part of a considerable segment of the intellectual leadership of society demands an accounting to posterity. If undertaken dispassionately, such an evaluation must, sooner or later, focus attention on a truth that runs like a central strand through the Scriptures of all of humanity's religions. In the words of Bahá'u'lláh:

Upon the reality of man ... He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self.... These energies ... lie, however, latent within him, even as the flame is hidden within the candle and the rays of light are potentially present in the lamp.... Neither the candle nor the lamp can be lighted through 63 their own unaided efforts, nor can it ever be possible for the mirror to free itself from its dross.81
5.42
The consequence of humanity's infatuation with the ideologies its own mind had conceived was to produce a terrifying acceleration of the process of disintegration that was dissolving the fabric of social life and cultivating the basest impulses of human nature. The brutalization that the first world war had engendered now became an omnipresent feature of social life throughout much of the planet. "Thus have We gathered together the workers of iniquity", Bahá'u'lláh warned over a century earlier. "We see them rushing on towards their idol.... They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light."82 64

(Commissioned by The Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p. 59)

[Strife]

I’m sure that those who take part in the murdering genocides don’t have a sense of humanity in them, the same for those who witness or have the information to make a difference to these problems. Killing your enemy in war by firing a bullet at them to stop them is one thing, but torturing your ‘enemies’ or the innocent lives who are caught in the middle because they are the enemy’s people, is just sadistic and beyond comprehension for me to understand. What drives people to go that far, lord knows. I know currently that North Korea does have some prison camps where they hold prisoners, and one of the sickest stories that I’ve ever heard. Like hoodlum mentioned, they had raped women, and had them face horrible deaths. Those who were pregnant, some were tied against trees, shot at their stomach, or had their stomachs cut open with their unborn children die instantly, while they died with them. It’s sad really… I mean really, what drives people to go over their conscience limit to do such thing?

[mickydoolittle]

Its so hard to understand how these things could ever happen?

have you forgotten that you are surounded by humans?

And the number of those killed in Guatemala is mucg closer to 700,000 than it is 200,000.

Do more research.

While your at it, research about the Tsutsi massacre. Clinton KNEW about this and did absolutely jackshiit--yeah, that's right, he and his cabinet did jacksihit. He was not a good man.

Or how about Croatia? Again...Clinton knew and did precisely jackshiit.

[mickydoolittle]

No no Laz, you got me all wrong; the sarcasm was directed at a thread by the title "America is the best country in the world". I was merely mocking the absurd and senseless superiority that was displayed there...


However, inspite of my grandly magnificent country's flaws, we're still better. :respect:

[Hoodlum]

Sir its not a question of whether we know about these occurances in history, but what has happened many times is these Genocides are kept secret while they are happening. Clinton didnt inform anyone that there was a country killing its people in horrible ways, which im convinced that 80% of the time our country knows about these things happening and doesnt do shit. I think the leader that decides to do nothing to help is near as horrible as those committing the murders.

[dutchie]

Can't help smiling at ya, Micky whenever you react to my postings....
Basically you're a great guy, but I can't help smiling at your exaggerated nationalism. Holland is always better anyway. Show me your windmills, your wooden shoes, your Gouda cheese, your Philips, you Smit Tak salvaging company.... :smokin:

[dutchie]

BTW, again I was kidding you... (for all not so attentive readers)
:bearhug:

[Hoodlum]

Well i think a very good idea would be to actually interview a person that helped with a genocide...

maybe we could get some answers WHYYYYYY????

and then we could each pick a weapon of choice and have at iT!!

wooooooooooooooooo! :boxer:

[dutchie]

Well, you guys have Saddam. We could ask him.

[lazserus]

I think we're too busy sticking mechanical mice in his bunghole. :french:

[mickydoolittle]

Yea AMERICA! No genocides here. :liar: :ohmy:

[Hoodlum]

I demand a personal meeting with Saddam Hussein!!! PResident Bush! I demand his presence!!

[geedubyah]

I demand a personal meeting with Saddam Hussein!!! PResident Bush! I demand his presence!!

You demand of me? How dare you. Shame on you. I'm a very important man. I answer no demands aside from those of my own. I want a pretzel.

See that you remember this or I'll have black helicopters circling above your house and soldiers in jack-boots marching lockstep to take you away to GITMO.

Now run along and know that I and my father are taking care of Saddam.

Be wary. Be very wary.

[Hoodlum]

Saddam is not your personal play toy, i know you have had many trips to fondle him acouple times but he likes it too much...

could you just please go lose the election so we can not be raped by N Korea and China

thanks ya spoiled bratty old fairy

[lotrfan55345]

We should enact a Genocide all stupid people.


George, I'm surprised, you called Saddam by his correct name and not "Sabama Bin Laden" or "Osama Hussain" or something of the like. :thumbs:

[dutchie]

We should enact a Genocide all stupid people.


George, I'm surprised, you called Saddam by his correct name and not "Sabama Bin Laden" or "Osama Hussain" or something of the like. :thumbs:
Yeah, but he omitted the "I approve of this message" statement :ohmy:

[lotrfan55345]

Yeah, but he omitted the "I approve of this message" statement :ohmy:

Yeah, but he had a TV with LARGE letters that he was looking at during the shooting.... Then after that, he watched the "Telletubies" on said TV.

[geedubyah]

You may think I am the dumbest person in the Whitehouse since Jimmy Carter, but I'm the president of the free world while you're in a semi-detached flat calling for my blood.

If it wasn't for me, you'd all be forced into practicing islam and kissing the ass of saddam and the iraqi's not to mention giving 'ol osama a tender reach-around.

You owe me your first born and you should offer that with a smile.

You don't feel so smug now, do you?

Just remember, my dad was the HEAD of the CIA and an ex-president. We can do many things don't you know. . .

[lotrfan55345]

>You are not the leader of the free world, nor the United States. The LEADERS of the Illuminati are.

>Saddam was never a threat to the United States, or the rest of the world for than matter, and never will be. I know it's hard for our tiny, acorn sized brain to comprehend, but bare with me.

>You and your father are only in that position because of several secret societies, aka: Illuminati, Skull&Bones, Free Masons

[Godsgifttomankind]

Yea AMERICA! No genocides here.
I think you meant to say 'Yea AMERICA! we quietly go about our genocides.
Do you forget what the civil war was about and the actions of the KKK?
Have you forgotten about your own ancestors?

Lotrfan,
You gravely under estimate the threat that existed in Iraq, it has nothing to do with the threat of Islam or the threat to the US but has everything to do with global freedom and oppressors of all types. The message is clear to the world, do not think that oppression of any type can continue, any excuse can topple an oppressive leadership. The US was just as much a pone in the game of global freedom. China is on the verge of a major change and the actions that they have been witness to, has created some unsettling thoughts for their leadership. The leadership is in survival mode and is being forced to rethink their potentials for maintaining power.

Your quoting that there are secret societies that control the destiny of the world is unfounded. There are secret societies and they are conspiring to control the world but I serve the greatest conspirator of all and that is God. God's plan is far greater then any ideas that could be conceived by any of these societies. God knows the heart and mind of every person on the earth and has a far greater control than any of even the greatest of leaders could possibly ever hope to command. If you doubt what I say wait and see what happens, as the earth is shaking and the foundations are crumbling, you will become aware of the ones that have been chosen to lead and the ones that are only after their own best interests.

[dutchie]

GGTM, I don't know if you had noticed, but we were just having a bit of fun in this thread.

Of course I realise that the place for this is the off-topic section, but sometimes the mods cut everyone some slack.

So: give it a rest. Have a drink :alcoholic, relax :sleeping: and leave the :crazy: be..