Did Jesus exist?

[substand]

did you guys used to have html on? (i've noticed a bunch of html in here)

This might be a little off topic, since i didn't read the latest posts, but Dutchie said:


if Christ existed,

.... i took exception to that because from what I've read it is a well known fact that he did exist... it is also well know that what happened to him bibically happened historically. The only debatable point is if he was God's son (or was resurrected, etc)

[DontBeAfraid]

You are quite wrong about there ever being a historical jesus who lived the life described in the bible even if you say that he was just a person. The story of jesus in the bible is just a story and not a biography and you will be VERY hard pressed to prove otherwise. If you go to the "long thread/posts" forum you will find much information which reitirates what I have said.

Please if you can find some untainted sources proving a factual jesus christ please post it..... after you read the threads here first of course.

[substand]

what is considered an "untainted source," anything that shows Jesus never existed?

[evilwill]

The bible was written by King James. This presents many problems. First of all, he wasn't there to witness such events and was basing this on pieces of religious writing. So there is bound to be inaccuracies and omissions. Not to mention his beliefs would have influenced what he wrote.

These are just a few problems. For all we know, the whole thing could have been made up by a person, using actual places and events and the sort. Too much is unknown.

[lotrfan55345]

Remember, it's JEEBUS not Jesus.

Yes, Evilwill is correct.

[DontBeAfraid]

Untainted is any historical document written in that era, that that mentions jesus in a non-religious manner. Untainted would be a document which was written with only the goal of making a public record, not swaying opinions.

You would think that there would be more than zero for someone who is supposed to have been so great huh?

Even the parts of the bible that mention jesus were written well after his supposed existence.

[lazserus]

One of the bigger problems with the existence of Jesus is that no one really knows when he lived/died. They just know it was sometime during the Roman Empire prior to Constantine. If you do a lot of research on the Roman Empire you'll find a lot of mentions of Jesus, but no substantial dates. That's a big problem. However, Christianity is not the only religion to recognize Jesus' existence. The Muslims believe he was a prophet. Yet, Islam and Christianity are really not all that far apart.

[DontBeAfraid]

I found one reference to a "cristos", maybe you can point me in a more determined direction laz?

[lazserus]

Here are two links discussing the rise of Christianity during the Roman Empire. I consider these authors neutral for all intensive purposes. Maybe this will shed some light.

Religion in the Roman Empire (http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html)

Rome: The Late Empire (http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ROME/LATE.HTM)

[DarkAce]

I found one reference to a "cristos", maybe you can point me in a more determined direction laz?

If I remember correctly cristos is greek for messiah since the Bible was first translated into Greek that's where Christ comes from.

[Godsgifttomankind]

One of the bigger problems with the existence of Jesus is that no one really knows when he lived/died. They just know it was sometime during the Roman Empire prior to Constantine. If you do a lot of research on the Roman Empire you'll find a lot of mentions of Jesus, but no substantial dates. That's a big problem. However, Christianity is not the only religion to recognize Jesus' existence. The Muslims believe he was a prophet. Yet, Islam and Christianity are really not all that far apart.
These are very good points Laz,
The Qur'an which contains the words revealed by Mohamed, speaks quite extensively on the birth, life and death of Christ. It confirms and goes into detail about the virgin birth and explains how Jesus spoke of his birth, death and resurrection while still in the cradle. It chastises the Arab people for not having believed in Christ and further goes on to say that Mohamed is Christ.
Most people do not realize that Mohamed was illiterate and yet the words that were revealed through him explain things about the world that are only beginning to be understood in this age. Some of the things that are explained in the Qur'an are
Where sperm originates
Embryonic development
Movement of the constellations
When the fetal heart starts beating
The uniqueness of individual fingerprints
The effect of gravitational forces
The list is quite extensive in a great multitude of fields of understanding. The complexity of the writings is far beyond the grasp of a nomadic illiterate hunter such as was the man through which they were revealed. The Qur'an rebukes the Jews for worshiping Ezra and the Christians for worshiping Jesus. This is quite an interesting statement because most people are not aware of the role that Ezra played in reestablishing Judaism and the Bible says not to worship anyone other than God and yet Christianity has done with Jesus the same thing that Baal worshipers had done and been condemned for and that is worshiping the man that brought them the message in place of God.

[Chrisboe4ever]

Who is this "Jesus" you guys speak of? The name doesn't ring a bell. :p

[dutchie]

But.... are there any real references to Christ, dating back to the period during or just after his life?

[DontBeAfraid]

Laz your first link is to a banner and the second link doesnt talk about a factual "jesus" at all, it only mentions that some 300 years after this "jesus" was supposed to have existed that the religion of christianity was growing.

Im not debating that christianity existed, Im debating whether a certain "jesus" existed.

Dark, According to the few translators I have tried cristos doesnt translate to messiah but whether cristos is greek for messiah or not is irrelevent, it was only used as a name in the reference I saw for it.

[dutchie]

I found a dutch link, where it says that the word "crestos" literally means ointment or anointed. It's an old greek word, and was used centuries before Christ.

[dutchie]

And here is a link about the writings of Flavius Josephus:
http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm

[lazserus]

DBA, I edited the first link. It works now. The second link has to be read all the way through.


Constantine, however, had several problems with his new faith. The first was that there was no established doctrine. In fact, there were as many forms of Christianity as there were communities of Christians. The second was more pressing, for foundational Christianity was manifestly anti-political. Its founder, Jesus of Nazareth, consistently condemned worldly authority and insisted that the Christian life is a non-worldly, individualistic, non-political life. As a result, the foundational Christian texts are not only anti-Roman (for Judaea was part of the Roman Empire during the life of Jesus of Nazareth), but consistently dismissive of human, worldly authority. If Christianity were going to work as a religion in a state ruled by a monarch that demanded worship and absolute authority, it would have to be changed. To this end, Constantine convened a group of Christian bishops at Nicea in 325; there, the basic orthodoxy of Christianity was instantiated in what came to be called the Nicene creed, the basic statement of belief for orthodox Christianity. Constantine accomplished more, however, for the Nicene council also ratified his own power and Christianity would begin the long struggle, lasting to this day, between the anti-political ideas of Jesus of Nazareth and the Christianity that is compromised to allow for human authority and power. (A more thorough discussion of the Nicene Council and the history of Christianity in the late Empire can be found in the module, "Early Christianity")

If you the right kind of research you will clearly see that Jesus did, in fact exist. If you keep looking under religious references then you'll definitely get biased information. You won't find a lot of non-religious Hebrew texts about Jesus, because they didn't keep many records back then. At the same time, there's no way to find information on Jesus with out including religion, considering his entire life was devoted to religion. Everything he ever did was religious in nature. When you look up Albert Einstein you're not going to continually find where he played soccor as a child, you're going to see his work in physics.

[DontBeAfraid]

laz if I look up any HISTORICAL figure Im certain I will find what sports most played as kids, among many other things. Even very miniscual HISTORICAL figures. The further back in time I go looking the less Ill find however I sould expect to find much more than what I do find on "jesus of nazeroth" The text you showed me does not prove that "jesus of nazeroth" existed, it simply states such. It is also not a record written even NEAR the time he is supposed to have existed. For as famous as jesus supposedly was you would think that there would be much more written about him..... There is more written about me(medical records, jobs, credit) than there is about jesus.

We all know that the "founder of christianity" is jesus but why arent there any records? There are records of many things from that time.

All I want is a historian FROM THAT ERA to make reference to a "jesus" without calling him the messiah.

The link dutchie provided is more in the time frame I want and more of what Im looking for but unfortunately the text was either written as a religious text or altered by a religious interloper.

Did they keep records of the people they crusified?

[DontBeAfraid]

Just checked out the first link.... much of the same. It is not the proof Im looking for as it simply states that a jesus existed and that his existence was very shady to say the least.
IF there was a jesus then, at best, he went "unnoticed" by most historians of the time..... How odd that we would get more information on him many years after he died then while he was alive with no "new" information coming to the table..... Seems to me like its being made up.
Laz you arent really making the case for me.

[lazserus]

Laz you arent really making the case for me.
No body is going to make a case for you because you've made up your mind that Jesus was a fictional character. Provide me with absolute proof beyond a reasonable doubt that King Numitor of Alba Longa existed. You can't. The only thing you're going to find is what "someone says". They didn't have medical or dental records, social security numbers, or drivers license numbers. A census taken back then was vary vague and ambiguous. The only proof you'll find of people's existences are things written down by an outside observer. There are PLENTY of historical documents that say Jesus did exist, but you're not willing to accept a single one of them. There is no possible way for you to find any text on Jesus outside of religious text BECAUSE THAT'S ALL HE DID. That's like finding information on Marcus Antonius that is not political or military. You keep thinking it should be as easy to find detailed information on a 2000 year old person as it would be to find information on you or I.


All I want is a historian FROM THAT ERA to make reference to a "jesus" without calling him the messiah.
When you find me a historian from that era then I'll present you with your facts. You will NEVER find the name of a historian from that era. Also, there are two historical books that mention Jesus by name and say he is not the messiah. Old books of Judaism and Islam mention Jesus of Nazareth by name and neither believe he was the son of God.

[DontBeAfraid]

Laz I did make up my mind, but not before I looked for what I want and what I want WILL change my mind. I know they didnt keep maticulous records but there WERE records and I think that jesus should have been mentioned in more than zero non-religiuos records given his popularity. I'm not asking for anything beyond a reasonable doubt, I just want a "blurb".

When some new astro physicist comes up with some new theory(ie gravastars) do you just except it because somebody says so? I know you want solid proof, you would want more solid proof than I seek for this.

Now I will go seek these things you say I wont find. I will post again on my success/failure.

[DontBeAfraid]

not long looking
http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/cs/timelines/a/timehistorians.htm

Here is a list of greek/roman historians from before, during and after that era.
as you can see, titus livious was there for his "birth" but died before him. He made over 140 books recording the history of the time, I might not expect to find anything about jesus in his books as they dont cover the time he was supposed to have started claiming to be the king.
the next historian, tacatus, is from a couple decades after "jesus" was supposed to have died. I havent read his texts yet but I will guess if I get bored I will look through them for some mention of jesus, though I expect that others already have and would have made their findings public given the nature of this topic.

What the story of jesus looks like to me:
Someone made up a story and set it in a during a time when they knew it would be hard to varify or otherwise by the current historians of the time christianity began..... Just like the mormons, they however, made many other varfiably false historical claims.... wait so do the christians, my bad.



Well, laz. these are two historians from that era and region.... gemme what I want.

[Godsgifttomankind]

DBA,
It is ironic that you are searching so hard to prove that Jesus did not exist and yet there is a mountain of evidence that he did. This really makes me wonder as to your purpose.

There are much greater fields of endeavor out there than to prove the non existence of your supposed mythical man. The truth about Christ is hidden in your present and has to do with understanding the times that we live in. Studying Quantum Physics has a greater ability to show you the truth behind Christ then Historical text.

[DontBeAfraid]

gtmk you got it wrong, Im searching for proof that he DID exist, just as I search for proof of a god or gods.....

If there was truly a mountain of REAL evidence for his existence I WOULD beleive it, but there simply isnt.

[Godsgifttomankind]

gtmk you got it wrong, Im searching for proof that he DID exist, just as I search for proof of a god or gods.....

If there was truly a mountain of REAL evidence for his existence I WOULD beleive it, but there simply isnt.
There is proof in the word.Release yourselves, O nightingales of God, from the thorns and brambles of wretchedness and misery, and wing your flight to the rose-garden of unfading splendor. O My friends that dwell upon the dust! Haste forth unto your celestial habitation. Announce unto yourselves the joyful tidings: "He Who is the Best-Beloved is come! He hath crowned Himself with the glory of God's Revelation, and hath unlocked to the face of men the doors of His ancient Paradise." Let all eyes rejoice, and let every ear be gladdened, for now is the time to gaze on His beauty, 320 now is the fit time to hearken to His voice. Proclaim unto every longing lover: "Behold, your Well-Beloved hath come among men!" and to the messengers of the Monarch of love impart the tidings: "Lo, the Adored One hath appeared arrayed in the fullness of His glory!" O lovers of His beauty! Turn the anguish of your separation from Him into the joy of an everlasting reunion, and let the sweetness of His presence dissolve the bitterness of your remoteness from His court.

Behold how the manifold grace of God, which is being showered from the clouds of Divine glory, hath, in this day, encompassed the world. For whereas in days past every lover besought and searched after his Beloved, it is the Beloved Himself Who now is calling His lovers and is inviting them to attain His presence. Take heed lest ye forfeit so precious a favor; beware lest ye belittle so remarkable a token of His grace. Abandon not the incorruptible benefits, and be not content with that which perisheth. Lift up the veil that obscureth your vision, and dispel the darkness with which it is enveloped, that ye may gaze on the naked beauty of the Beloved's face, may behold that which no eye hath beheld, and hear that which no ear hath heard.

Hear Me, ye mortal birds! In the Rose Garden of changeless splendor a Flower hath begun to bloom, compared to which every other flower is but a thorn, and before the brightness of Whose glory the very 321 essence of beauty must pale and wither. Arise, therefore, and, with the whole enthusiasm of your hearts, with all the eagerness of your souls, the full fervor of your will, and the concentrated efforts of your entire being, strive to attain the paradise of His presence, and endeavor to inhale the fragrance of the incorruptible Flower, to breathe the sweet savors of holiness, and to obtain a portion of this perfume of celestial glory. Whoso followeth this counsel will break his chains asunder, will taste the abandonment of enraptured love, will attain unto his heart's desire, and will surrender his soul into the hands of his Beloved. Bursting through his cage, he will, even as the bird of the spirit, wing his flight to his holy and everlasting nest.

Night hath succeeded day, and day hath succeeded night, and the hours and moments of your lives have come and gone, and yet none of you hath, for one instant, consented to detach himself from that which perisheth. Bestir yourselves, that the brief moments that are still yours may not be dissipated and lost. Even as the swiftness of lightning your days shall pass, and your bodies shall be laid to rest beneath a canopy of dust. What can ye then achieve? How can ye atone for your past failure?

The everlasting Candle shineth in its naked glory. Behold how it hath consumed every mortal veil. O ye moth-like lovers of His light! Brave every danger, and consecrate your souls to its consuming flame. O 322 ye that thirst after Him! Strip yourselves of every earthly affection, and hasten to embrace your Beloved. With a zest that none can equal make haste to attain unto Him. The Flower, thus far hidden from the sight of men, is unveiled to your eyes. In the open radiance of His glory He standeth before you. His voice summoneth all the holy and sanctified beings to come and be united with Him. Happy is he that turneth thereunto; well is it with him that hath attained, and gazed on the light of so wondrous a countenance.

CLII. Thine eye is My trust, suffer not the dust of vain desires to becloud its luster. Thine ear is a sign of My bounty, let not the tumult of unseemly motives turn it away from My Word that encompasseth all creation. Thine heart is My treasury, allow not the treacherous hand of self to rob thee of the pearls which I have treasured therein. Thine hand is a symbol of My loving-kindness, hinder it not from holding fast unto My guarded and hidden Tablets.... Unasked, I have showered upon thee My grace. Unpetitioned, I have fulfilled thy wish. In spite of thy undeserving, I have singled thee out for My richest, My incalculable favors.... O My servants! Be as resigned and submissive as the earth, that from the soil of your being there may blossom the fragrant, the holy and multicolored hyacinths of My knowledge. Be ablaze as the fire, that ye may burn away the veils of heedlessness 323 and set aglow, through the quickening energies of the love of God, the chilled and wayward heart. Be light and untrammeled as the breeze, that ye may obtain admittance into the precincts of My court, My inviolable Sanctuary.

CLIII. O banished and faithful friend! Quench the thirst of heedlessness with the sanctified waters of My grace, and chase the gloom of remoteness through the morning-light of My Divine presence. Suffer not the habitation wherein dwelleth My undying love for thee to be destroyed through the tyranny of covetous desires, and overcloud not the beauty of the heavenly Youth with the dust of self and passion. Clothe thyself with the essence of righteousness, and let thine heart be afraid of none except God. Obstruct not the luminous spring of thy soul with the thorns and brambles of vain and inordinate affections, and impede not the flow of the living waters that stream from the fountain of thine heart. Set all thy hope in God, and cleave tenaciously to His unfailing mercy. Who else but Him can enrich the destitute, and deliver the fallen from his abasement?

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 319)

[DarkAce]

Dutchie's correct in saying it literally means anointed. I found this from searching:


The name Jesus is derived from a Greek rendering of the Hebrew name Joshua, or in full Yehoshuah (Yahweh is deliverance). The title Christ is derived from the Greek christos, a translation of the Hebrew mashiakh (anointed one), or Messiah. “Christ” was used by Jesus' early followers, who regarded him as the promised deliverer of Israel and later was made part of Jesus' proper name by the church, which regards him as the redeemer of all humanity.


Link:http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565222/Jesus_Christ.html

[DontBeAfraid]

You are about to make my ignore list ggtmk.... If i was a mod I would delete your thread as it is totally unrelated to the conversation.

[honeycomb]

God created Adam from no other human too - that doesn't make him God's son, right. so Adam was merely His creation, Jesus likewise. it's very simple. i just don't know why things are made complex by saying Jesus is God' son. it'll just rises many questions. the truth is simpler...

[Red Shift]

The bible was written by King James. This presents many problems. First of all, he wasn't there to witness such events and was basing this on pieces of religious writing. So there is bound to be inaccuracies and omissions. Not to mention his beliefs would have influenced what he wrote.

Then i propose we rewrite the bible Armageddon Online style!


Anyone with me?

...............................Anyone????

[mickydoolittle]

you're approaching blasephemy--no?

[Ghostrider ESP]

Jesus probably did exist as a person but was he the son of God, sent here to save us all? He probably thought he was, many people throughout history have. He could probably perform a few magical tricks as well that in those times would've looked like miracles but which today would be considered pure folly.
Tricks like feeding the 5000, walking on water, his own resurrection are probably grossly exaggerated.

[Red Shift]

you're approaching blasephemy--no?

I am approaching blasephemy in king james' oppinion! But who was he to decide? Apart from king?

The Armageddon Bible

Sounds like the end though don't it!?

[eyekwah]

he dident exsist he never did he never will ok just face it religoin is evil it causes thousands of deths every year




Mo righ's mo dhuchaich

[Keeblergiant]

I definitely think Jesus existed, although as nothing more than mere man. Time creates legends; time gave King Arthur the sword in the stone and allowed William Tell to shoot the apple off of his sons head...I see no reason why time cannot give a manipulator the ability to walk on water.

[RebornXmetalhead]

Woah too many posts to read, sorry I don't have much time. But I'll give you my opinion.

Jesus is not only a person mentionned in the Bible. He is also mentionned in the Qu'Ran (spelling?) but it says he was only an apostle, not the son of God.

I believe He sent Christ as a messenger, first of all to teach, then to bear humanity's sin and to die, who's blood would cleanse whoever believes He did that and that He was who He said He was. Lamb of God, perfect sacrifice.

The only way the term "God's son" could be explained would be by saying He is part of the Trinity. Holy Spirit, God, Christ, all three the same, but in different forms.

And to correct somebody here : King James did NOT write the Bible. There were versions of the Bible before King James, which were not as complete, but still contained lots of stuff. King James used SCHOLARS to translate all scripture they had with them, and to put them together into a single book to make it easier for the readers to get all of it at once. Scholars chose what would be part of the Bible and what wouldn't, and yes they could have added a bit of crap, or excluded some.

But the message remains the same.

[RebornXmetalhead]

he dident exsist he never did he never will ok just face it religoin is evil it causes thousands of deths every year




Mo righ's mo dhuchaich

How old are you kid? "religion causes thousands of deaths every year".. ok, well only 1 of those religions is focused on Jesus. And then there's another 50 that aren't.

Organised religion is bad imo. But how could you make such a claim? What makes you so sure He never existed? Just the fact that you don't like what religion sounds like?

Heh.

[DarkAce]

What does Jesus being mentioned in the koran have anything to do with his existence? And the muslims consider him to be a great prophet, not an apostle.
I believe Jesus was a judaism reformer who had many eastern influences and principles. Most of the later crap said about him was due to Paul and countless conjecture brought up by the influentials in the christian community over the years.

[Dr. X]

Sometimes you just have to laugh...*grin*
Ok, did George Washington exist? His name is on the Declaration of Independance. But did you SEE him write it? No, you didn't. You go by belief, by faith, that he was our first president.
Billl Gates created Microsoft and a bunch of stuff that we use daily, but did you SEE him create it? No. You go by what people, the media has said, yes? after all, most of the world can't be wrong, right?
Jesus existed, and I say that by faith, because when it really comes down to it, everything that you experience you have faith in, because you really don't know.
How do you know that chili dog you just bought doesn't have botulism? Because you believe the cook knew what he was doing, and wouldn't serve you a bad product.
You can say this document is tainted, or that King James wrote the Bible ( he didn't, he transcribed it). but just as ya'll say that you weren't there to validate what it says, ya'll weren't there to discredit it as well. Let's get real about that.
ANYTHING that was written by man is slanted in that authors perception. But that doesn't mean that God is not real. We are human, and we make mistakes, but God is there to watch and see how we react to our situations, and judges accordingly.

[DontBeAfraid]

after all, most of the world can't be wrong, right? wrong....

If you want to make comparisons please choose things that are comparable to the lack of proof for Jesus.... Bill Gates is WELL DOCUMENTED. So is Washington. They were both documented during their own lifetimes as well.....

[eyekwah]

hey as they say im entitled to wat i belive but i have been reading some threads latley and a book or so and apparently jesus did exsist and had a child with mary and ther is people with hi blood running through them this very day and religion did start most of the wars in the world actualy thers only one or two wars that wernt started by opposing religions sorry to put so many ands

[Mezurashi]

I know Jesus existed because Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus and I believe everything Oral Roberts tells me.

[johnb1]

Many historical proof that JESUS exist but we are more Blessed because we did not see our LORD Jesus Christ in the FLESH check this out. here Video Gallery Archive / How Authentic the Bible is!? http://www.theoldpath.tv/videos.aspx#top http://esoriano.wordpress.com/ask-bro-eli/

[Traveler]

The very calender that we work by is based on the birth of this man Jesus. Now I am sure that you are all going to come out with all you can to try and prove that he never was just as has been pridicted in the scriptures that you try to ridicule all the time.

But the fact remains that he sure had the Romans convinced that he existed and as the Romans lived nearer the time in question then I think that their recolections of the events are a lot more reliable than yours.

[DontBeAfraid]

How many other OLDER super heroes were born on the 25th of december Traveler? And why did we start on the 25th if your specific super heroes birth was the "beginning"?


But the fact remains that he sure had the Romans convinced that he existed and as the Romans lived nearer the time in question then I think that their recolections of the events are a lot more reliable than yours.Then why didnt ANY roman historians write about him DURING his supposed existance? Why does he only show up in roman history several hundred years AFTER the myth supposedly happened?

[Traveler]

How many other OLDER super heroes were born on the 25th of december Traveler? And why did we start on the 25th if your specific super heroes birth was the "beginning"?

Then why didnt ANY roman historians write about him DURING his supposed existance? Why does he only show up in roman history several hundred years AFTER the myth supposedly happened?

He does show up at an earlier date. Pilot was recalled to Rome so as to please explain why he allowed this Christ fellow to be crusified when it was in violation of Roman law.

[DontBeAfraid]

Pilot was recalled to Rome so as to please explain why he allowed this Christ fellow to be crusified when it was in violation of Roman law.Show me this happening in history texts that arent the bible. Seriously, find me any reference to any christ that was written in an original history book before its revised version a hundred years later....

Sorry, but your super hero was added in post-production just like the super heroes of today.... and just like most super heroes of today, yours is ALSO a rip off of earlier works.

[jeffweeder]

Then why didnt ANY roman historians write about him DURING his supposed existance?

There are some, but because they believed it was true, that somehow makes them invalid.
Jewish historians were more likely to record this history as it happened in Israel.
or
Maybe because he was exactly as the NT said he was.
What would they write, that he did all those things and really was the son of God?
Might have been a dangerous undertaking that threatened their careers , to take peoples eyes of Caesar...

[Traveler]

You need to take a closer look at what DBA is pushing here. He is in fact holding out absolutely nothing and then presenting that as proof that Jesus never was.

Jesus would only appear in the secular Roman records after the Christian movement had grown to such an extent that it was no longer confined to the back water province of Israel but was starting to change the face of the established state of Rome itself.

There are records of the early spread of this movement such as Joseph of Arametheia. The only problem is that it sounds very much like scripture even though it was never included in the bible cannon.

More interesting records are the complaints of the pagan religious leaders where were moaning about the departure of the pagan Gods after the crucifixion. All the temples that had been erected to their glory were now emptied of their deities and just hollow buildings.

But in true fashion of deception all references to Christ in early literature will be classified as religious in nation and therefore not acceptable. Naturally if all evidence is ruled out then all that is left is nothing so nothing gets held up as an authority. Naturally as the burden of proof rests in favor that Christ was it should be DBA that is required to prove that Christ did not exist and as he has no ability to do this he will strut around holding up his bunch of nothing and proclaiming in a loud voice that his nothing has to be disproved when if fact things should be the other way around.

But as we are in the last days deceptions will abound so bull shit is proclaimed credible while that of substance is shouted down. I don’t know why we even bother arguing. On Christs return it will become very clear what the realities on the ground really are.

[DontBeAfraid]

He is in fact holding out absolutely nothing and then presenting that as proof that Jesus never was.actually Im asking you to find jesus in a secualr history written during his time.


Jesus would only appear in the secular Roman records after the Christian movement had grown to such an extent that it was no longer confined to the back water province of Israel but was starting to change the face of the established state of Rome itself.Actually a secular reference would not need fear any reprisal at all as it would just be a reference to a supposed mad man who was crucified for challenging the powers that be. The reason no such thing exists until long after the christians came to majority power is becuase they couldnt paste him into the history books until then.


There are records of the early spread of this movement such as Joseph of Arametheia.I dont debate that there were early christians... dont change the subject.


But in true fashion of deception all references to Christ in early literature will be classified as religious in nation and therefore not acceptable.Incorrect. Only the religious references to the sun of god are classified as religious. Ill accept the secular reference when you find me one. FYI, I spent a LONG time searching for this so good luck.


Naturally as the burden of proof rests in favor that Christ wasMy arguement is that there is no secular evidence that this christ existed. The burden is on YOU to produce some if you contend that its obvious that he did. You claim you have more proof of your super heroes existance then others have of their super heroes existances and that is why you believe in your god and not theirs. I see the same weak evidence for both christ and hercules and ask you to prove that your christ is more real than hercules if you are so convinced. No, the burden is yours as you are the one making the positive claim.


his nothing has to be disproved when if fact things should be the other way around. You need a quick lesson in logic:
Positive claims can be proven... like claiming something exists.
Negitive claims can not be proven, like claim that something absolutely cannot exist.
My claim is that so far, there has been no secular reference to jesus found from his era. And thus your POSITVIE claim that he existed is suspect. Prove your positive claim here genius.


On Christs return it will become very clear what the realities on the ground really areAre you threatening me with hell again?

[alpha]

Jesus was mortal and was a prophet. He travelled all over the World spreading the word of God. He was called Yahoshua ben Jospeh, not Jesus Christ, that came later when Paul colluded with the Romans to incorporate the divine faith.

Jesus is mentioned in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. He had to have existed, its just Christians have been fed BS from the Vatican for the last 2000 years!

If the missing gospels were released and translated Christians might actually wake up to the fact he was just a prophet. Albeit a very very important person.

[iulian28ti]

Jesus was mortal and was a prophet. He travelled all over the World spreading the word of God. He was called Yahoshua ben Jospeh, not Jesus Christ, that came later when Paul colluded with the Romans to incorporate the divine faith.

Jesus is mentioned in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. He had to have existed, its just Christians have been fed BS from the Vatican for the last 2000 years!

If the missing gospels were released and translated Christians might actually wake up to the fact he was just a prophet. Albeit a very very important person.

Thanks for quoting me so smoothly :cool03:

[alpha]

great minds must think alike then Julian.

If Christians admitted that Yahoshua was just a prophet and Jesus Christ never existed and THEY made him up to be the son of God then we might get somewhere !

But unless the mainstream media promote this FACT and the Vatican lie down and die and give all their money to the development of the 3rd World then we're going to be stuck in this dogma until a global catastrophe wipes religion off the face of the map for ever!

The global populous in ALL faiths should get together to DEMAND the releasing of the missing gospels and for the Christian church to come clean (and the Freemasons to do the same!!)

The masons could sink the Christian church, I say they do it now!

[jeffweeder]

great minds must think alike then Julian

Rarely do.
Although humble minds may think alike.

I dont know how you or others can just consider Jesus as an prophet....He himself admitted to more, and theres much more to him than can be contributed to any ordinary prophet.
I dont care what the catholics say about, Idont care what mainstream christains have to say about it.
I care about what he said about it. I accept his testamony about who he was and what it means to be a man.

[DontBeAfraid]

Which book in the bible was written by jesus himself? Hell, did he write even one sentence in it himself?

[jeffweeder]

Which book in the bible was written by jesus himself? Hell, did he write even one sentence in it himself?

His life wrote the story, but you doubt that it was written properly.
Thats fair enough, but personnally and sincerely, I dont see a reason to doubt the authenticity and accuracy of what really happened. You have 4 accounts by different people on his life (the Gospels), plus you have his life documented throughout the old testament, which was completed 400 years before Jesus was born.
The things documented about this character in the OT ,could only apply to one person in history.

I dont want to believe a whole lot of rubbish ya know, but theres no way i cannot believe what ive seen.

[DontBeAfraid]

So your answer was: "Not a single sentence."

?

[Flynn]

His life wrote the story, but you doubt that it was written properly.
Thats fair enough, but personnally and sincerely, I dont see a reason to doubt the authenticity and accuracy of what really happened. You have 4 accounts by different people on his life (the Gospels), plus you have his life documented throughout the old testament, which was completed 400 years before Jesus was born.
The things documented about this character in the OT ,could only apply to one person in history.
All four of those accounts disagree with each other, so which one are you suppose to believe? After a spending 30 seconds on google I came up with the following contradictions:


Jesus’ Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem with Animals:
Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem had to adhere to prophecy, but which one?

Mark 11:2-7, Luke 19:30-35 - Following Jesus’ instructions, the disciples bring him one animal
Matthew 21:2-6 - Following Jesus’ instructions, the disciples bring him two animals
John 12:14 - Jesus doesn’t instruct the disciples at all and gets a single animal himself

Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, John 12:14 - Jesus rides a single animal when entering Jerusalem
Matthew 21:7 - Jesus rides two animals at the same time

Jesus Cleanses the Temple:
Jesus’ cleansing of the Temple is regarded as symbolic of the overturning of Judaism, but the gospels differ on important details:

Mark 11:15-17 - Jesus cleanses the Temple at the beginning of Passion week
Matthew 21:12-13 - Jesus cleanses the Temple during the Passion week, at the end of his career
Luke 19:45-46 - Jesus cleanses the Temple at the beginning of Passion week
John 2:13-16 - Jesus cleanses the Temple near the beginning of his career, well before the Passion

Jesus and the Fig Tree:
Before entering Jerusalem, did Jesus curse a fig tree and cause it to wither because it didn’t have any fruit? Luke and John don’t mention this; Matthew and Mark do mention it, but don’t agree on the details:

Mark 11:20-21 - Jesus’ disciples don’t notice that the tree has withered until the next day
Matthew 21:19-20 - Jesus’ disciples notice that the fig tree withers immediately after being cursed and are amazed

Location of the Anointing of Jesus:
Where was Jesus anointed with oil? Matthew and Mark agree, Luke does not. John doesn’t mention it at all:

Mark 14:3, Matthew 26:6-13 - Jesus is anointed at the house of a leper named Simon, in Bethany
Luke 7:36-38 - Jesus is anointed in Galilee at the house of an unnamed Pharisee

How was Jesus Anointed?:
What part of the body was Jesus anointed on? Matthew and Mark say one thing, Luke and John say another:

Mark 14:3, Matthew 26:7 - Jesus is anointed with oil is poured on his head
Luke 7:38, John 12:3 - Jesus is anointed with oil poured on his feet

Who Anoints Jesus?:
Who does the anointing of Jesus? Matthew, Mark, and Luke all agree, but John doesn’t:

Mark 14:3, Matthew 26:7, Luke 7:37 - Jesus is anointed by an unnamed woman
John 12:3 - Jesus is anointed by Mary

Reactions to Jesus’ Anointing:
Jesus was anointed with expensive oil, so not everyone was happy about the apparent waste. Matthew, Mark, and John all describe different people as upset; Luke doesn’t mention this at all:

Mark 14:4 - “Some” reproach the unnamed woman who anoints Jesus
Matthew 26:8 - The disciples reproach the unnamed woman who anoints Jesus
Luke 7:39 - An unnamed Pharisee thinks that this is wrong because the woman is a sinner
John 12:4-5 - Judas Iscariot reproaches Mary for anointing Jesus

Overall Sequence of Events During the Passion Week:
The Passion Week plays a central role in Christian beliefs, but the gospels don’t agree on the correct sequence of events:

Mark, Matthew - Triumphal Entry, Cleansing of the Temple, Anointing at Bethany
Luke - Triumphal Entry, Cleansing the Temple, Daily Teaching in the Temple
John - Cleansing the temple (long before Passion Week), Supper with Lazarus, Triumphal Entry, no Cleansing of the Temple

[alpha]

His life wrote the story, but you doubt that it was written properly.
Thats fair enough, but personnally and sincerely, I dont see a reason to doubt the authenticity and accuracy of what really happened. You have 4 accounts by different people on his life (the Gospels), plus you have his life documented throughout the old testament, which was completed 400 years before Jesus was born.
The things documented about this character in the OT ,could only apply to one person in history.

I dont want to believe a whole lot of rubbish ya know, but theres no way i cannot believe what ive seen.

hoodwinked Jeff! you've been hoodwinked!

There are more than 20 gospels missing from the Bible, all of them hidden by the Romans and still hidden to this day although most of them were found and still lie in museums hidden from view! That is fact Jeff! Don't you want to know what those gospels say about Jesus. In particular, Thomas and Mary!?

The Bible today is about as authentic as a Rolex from a lucky-lucky man on a beach in Spain!

[johnb1]

Which book in the bible was written by jesus himself? Hell, did he write even one sentence in it himself?

The whole BIBLE itself..., and everything that you see and the unseen that are good is written....,,

2 Corinthians 3:3

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.



FOCUS and STEADY on the BOOKS is my journey and challenge I maybe a newbie in this forte or field that i cannot understand all or DIE early....

FAITH TRUST & the ULTIMATE LOVE...is written in my MIND and HEART..
Unexplainable isn't it? My heart has EYES and EARS. you can say this is a mental delusion.. but GOD's know ME and I now GOD

FOCUS AND STEADY = Archer Battle Realms

UNLOCK all the secrets and mysteries in this WORLD through all gathered data and code

Mmmm....The answer is in the BIBLE also

the human brain is amazing but you got to always screw your brain tighten you might get insane or overwhelm in all we/you learn.

synchronizing in the flow of nature our life stream makes us understand everything but unexplainable because there is a human error, It can be explained by who? .... Daniel 12:9-10 Mark 4:11-12 Ecle 17:16-17

1 BIBLE
2 Dictionary
3 Medical Books
4 Business Books
5 Angels and Demons
6 Bible Code
7 Famous writers ad Books
8 Guinness World Book
9 World History
10 Encyclopedia
13 Language and Translations and Symbols
14 Myths, fairytale, fables, legend........etc.

11 Issues World News

12 Showbiz
13 Tabloids
14 Comics
15 etc.......

INTERNET Has a very very VAST of Information.
and right now THE What's on the screen on THE PC but be Cautious and Careful Watching..

1. Gathering 2. Analyzing 3. Coding 4. Debugging 5. Dumping 6. rejecting
7. back to 1

Maybe i did not read carefully but it is crystal clear that we are in different beliefs... this issue made this forum great...I will learn more and can get along to flow of the forum .

It is so CHALLENGING in life that we are searching for the real thing that is unseen that GOD PROMISE to US...O2 AIR/OXYGEN it is seen or Not, cold,heat it is unseen or not or do we feel it..of course we feel it....literally and spiritually...all of them fade away..... 1 thing does not fade away .... LOVE?


For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33

Mark 4:11-12 Daniel 12:9-10 2timothy 3:13 John 7:17

Ecclesiastes 17:16-17 Think Beyond...and Parallel...


Example: Heaven and Earth --> there is something Beyond on Heaven and there is something meaning that the word and implies.

BIBLE always have the answer When it comes to antiquity, Literally and Spiritually PROVEN... we're just reading it right? (^^,) but reading it is just like a mirror of our life in the PAST PRESENT and FUTURE to come....am I right? NO!!!! the BIBLE is right not me....

[jeffweeder]

hoodwinked Jeff! you've been hoodwinked!

Great care and common sense hath been taken to avoid being hoodwinked.
20 missing Gospels is what would do the hoodwinking.
Why so many accounts of the same story?
One is usually enough, but we have four personalised accounts of his life--written for a reason and to a particular audience.
Matt writes to a Jewish audience and appeals to them by references to their OT.
Mk writes for a roman audience
Luke to the Greek
John focuses on his Judean ministry and his diety, more like a Spiritual account.

Flynn says that there are many differences in these accounts.
Ill be back to show you something about that later....

[Flynn]

The whole BIBLE itself..., <lots of incoherent rambling>
Are you on crack? Your rambling makes absolutely no sense. It reads like the verbal diarrhea of a strung out junkie who had one too many tabs of LSD.

[johnb1]

Are you on crack? Your rambling makes absolutely no sense. It reads like the verbal diarrhea of a strung out junkie who had one too many tabs of LSD.

All of you will understand one day what I have POSTED.......with your own mistakes (^^,) tells something Beyond and Parallel.......Just like what I did.

[Flynn]

I doubt I will ever understand what you posted because you write in a language that only has a vague and passing resemblance to the queen's English.

[jeffweeder]

Ok Errol, here ya go.



Jesus and the Fig Tree:
Before entering Jerusalem, did Jesus curse a fig tree and cause it to wither because it didn’t have any fruit? Luke and John don’t mention this; Matthew and Mark do mention it, but don’t agree on the details:

Mark 11:20-21 - Jesus’ disciples don’t notice that the tree has withered until the next day
Matthew 21:19-20 - Jesus’ disciples notice that the fig tree withers immediately after being cursed and are amazed


MK 11
As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up.
21 Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."

MATT 21
18 Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.
19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.
20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"

MK 11
On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry.
13 Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
14 He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.




How was Jesus Anointed?:
What part of the body was Jesus anointed on? Matthew and Mark say one thing, Luke and John say another:

Mark 14:3, Matthew 26:7 - Jesus is anointed with oil is poured on his head
Luke 7:38, John 12:3 - Jesus is anointed with oil poured on his feet


Reactions to Jesus’ Anointing:
Jesus was anointed with expensive oil, so not everyone was happy about the apparent waste. Matthew, Mark, and John all describe different people as upset; Luke doesn’t mention this at all:

Mark 14:4 - “Some” reproach the unnamed woman who anoints Jesus
Matthew 26:8 - The disciples reproach the unnamed woman who anoints Jesus
Luke 7:39 - An unnamed Pharisee thinks that this is wrong because the woman is a sinner
John 12:4-5 - Judas Iscariot reproaches Mary for anointing Jesus

For one thing the unamed pharisee is named, his name is ...yep, Simon.
And Jesus answered him, "Simon---see lk 7:40-

Some say head, some emphasise the crying and tears and the kissing of feet, but Jesus refered to his whole body being annointed for burial.,not just his head and feet


But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me.
7 "For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.
8 "She has done what she could; she has anointed My body beforehand for the burial.
9 "Truly I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her."

and here we are talking about it..amazing
They all wrote in their own particular style and i see no controversy.
He was annoited from head to foot as the laws of gravity would have drawn the oil down his body.
some took up the story of annointing is head, while others focused on her crying at his feet .
They all complain at the waste, either in relation to the poor,or her unworthyness.




Overall Sequence of Events During the Passion Week:
The Passion Week plays a central role in Christian beliefs, but the gospels don’t agree on the correct sequence of events:

Mark, Matthew - Triumphal Entry, Cleansing of the Temple, Anointing at Bethany
Luke - Triumphal Entry, Cleansing the Temple, Daily Teaching in the Temple
John - Cleansing the temple (long before Passion Week), Supper with Lazarus, Triumphal Entry, no Cleansing of the Temple



Johns cleasing of the temple is at the beginning of his ministry.-note the differences in what he said to them.................
John focused on the Judean part f his work,
Other gospels focus on his Gallilean and judean.

The essense of the 4 gospels is exactly the same....

[johnb1]

The essense of the 4 gospels is exactly the same....[/QUOTE]



Hello Bro..(^^,) Want to know some interesting answers on your questions to add it up,, It may be awkward to tell this to you. because I'm only a newbie I very sorry for my Intrusion for
referring a person to you...first of all I am shy to approach you...like THIS.

ASK MY LEADER... BRO ELI SORIANO and TRY HIM maybe he can answer you more meaningful deeply and amazing...


GOD BLESS YOU and THANKS TO GOD TO GOD BE THE GLORY for what you reach a great years of searching and learning I have learn many on your POST..(^^,)


http://esoriano.wordpress.com/ 1 Thessalonians 2

[jeffweeder]

Hello Johnb1

What do mean that you are a newbie?.......To the faith or 2 the forum?

Why mot invite Bro Eli to come and share at this forum?




GOD BLESS YOU and THANKS TO GOD TO GOD BE THE GLORY for what you reach a great years of searching and learning I have learn many on your POST

Just my 2 cents worth John.
A hurricane couldnt blow me away from what i think is the obvious conclusion to this question.

[johnb1]

YES we WILL you can also POST a comment and QUESTION on BRO ELI's WEB blog

http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

[jeffweeder]

ok, sounds good, you can ask me any question you want if you like, and see how i measure up against Bro Eli.

Gods best to you John

[iulian28ti]

Which book in the bible was written by jesus himself? Hell, did he write even one sentence in it himself?

I agree with this. Since the bible was written by other people, they could have just used the words of Jesus and add some "patches" to it to fit "Religious OS":ohmy:

[johnb1]

I agree with this. Since the bible was written by other people, they could have just used the words of Jesus and add some "patches" to it to fit "Religious OS":ohmy:

REALLY PROVED TO US (^^,) WE GOT OUR BIBLE and EDUCATIONAL FACTS & AUTHENTICATED THINGS related to all our Confusions and WHAT HAVE YOU GOT?

It is just for now is just like this SOMEDAY YOU AND ALL OF US ONEDAY WILL SEE(^^,)

MARK 4:11-12 <---- 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven

PATCHES YOU SAY (^^,) It is more than a written BROTHER

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

THINK BEYOND AND PARALLEL (^^,) GOD BLESS and TAKE CARE ALWAYS
I'm not claiming anything for you all to believe me (^^,) I am just like everyone else a sinner a man . I have Done My PART Just like WHAT GOD IS CALLING US.

PROVERBS 1:23

PROVERBS 1:22-33

22 "How long will you simple ones [a] love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

23 If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.

24 But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

25 since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

26 I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-

27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.

28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.

29 Since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the LORD,

30 since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,

31 they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;

33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm."

Does this Word of GOD make you ANGRY (^^,) In my olds DAYS yes I don't like
GODLY THINGS what I like is BAD BAD BAD BAD THINGS.

[iulian28ti]

The Bible
- available in many versions and translations. Last version dates around 300 AC, meaning around the First Council of Nicaea, which was a political-driven gathering
- incorporates writings and images from other ancient religions and cults dating up from 7000 BC.
- lacks 52 gnostic gospels
- presents historical forgeries
- presents inconsistency
- presents non-rational thinking and denies science
- has the same attributes as tales
- presents synoptics
- it is a source of religious hatred, but is supported to this day. It's illogical to support something leading to a bad thing.
- it is a moralizing text without which the religious community would stop functioning.

[johnb1]

Even IF it LACKS 52 gnostics GOSPELS (^^,)BIBLE is still Complete....

ISAIAH 34:16

Look in the scroll of the LORD and read:
None of these will be missing,
not one will lack her mate.
For it is his mouth that has given the order,
and his Spirit will gather them together.


DO NOT LOOK ALWAYS on WHAT YOU SEE (^^,) THINK BEYOND AND PARALLEL

Q. Do we see air or do we feel it
Do we see LOVE or ANGER unless if we DO IT
Can we reach GOD unless if We DIE
Can we undestand all the things in this earth? just like KING SOLOMON? is KING SOLOMON is REAL? Have we seen a GHOST or A spirit GOOD or BAD.

Do we feel HAPPY and SAD cmofort or PAIN? (^^,)

Your Presentation of EVENTS AND FACTS are TRUE I cannot DENY IT. but what's inside of of it or the real sory on that time of it is TRUE.

DOES TIME connive with the DEVIL to FRAUD and THE GOOD DAYS is WITH THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY SHINING BRIGHTLY as SYMBOLIC TRUTH.

IS SATAN is LIGHT? but not BRIGHT LUCIFER TURNS to WICKEDNESS FROM GOOD TO BAD and ALREADY JUDGE and COMDEMED by GOD.

JESUS CHRIST is THE BRIGHT LIGHT! Are we PUNISHED NOW? do we have a chance to escape this JUDGEMENT?

I JUST TOLD BEFORE BEFORE THE MYTHS AND TALES THE BIBLE EXIST FIRST.....(^^,)

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

HOW about that? After telling all of you all this I humbly Aplogize and say I'm Sorry (-_-) I do not mEant to HURT all your Feelings LET's GET Along for EDUCATIONAL discussion for the sake of the FUTURE of MANKIND.

[iulian28ti]

Even IF it LACKS 52 gnostics GOSPELS (^^,)BIBLE is still Complete....
the Bible is complete, because it's book, but the teaching is not.


Look in the scroll of the LORD and read:
None of these will be missing,
not one will lack her mate.
For it is his mouth that has given the order,
and his Spirit will gather them together.
sorry. you use circular logic. again :ohmy:. bible says god says so, thus god says it. no external proof or reason.

and you just make yourself a fool by saying

DO NOT LOOK ALWAYS on WHAT YOU SEE (^^,) THINK BEYOND AND PARALLEL
that refers to logic, to good logic, not fallacies, including irrelevant data.

[johnb1]

HOW irrelevant I am? what is this FORUM about what's the ROOM FOR? (^^,)
even now I can use your links and your POST as My evidence also to support my TOPIC
haven't you think about that (^^,) because I want all of us agreed someday in one UNDENIABLE TRUTH BELIEF WHEN? ---> AFTER DEATH the PRIZE of ETERNAL LIFE and SECOND DEATH......

YOU DID NOT answer all my QUESTIONS it is unfair as for all of you here I follow the RULES in AO and ADMIT my MISTAKES..

You always explained as a Specialist NOT a Generalist to HELP other PEOPLE to be FRUITFUL in their LIVES and do GOOD THINGS not BAD also I being sometimes Arrogant
for I defend MY BASIS THE BIBLE WHOLE ITSELF but your BASIS only FEW see-through for the OTHERS
Only I search and research eagerly what you want me to BELIEVE.(^^,)

It's OK I've got along way to GO to meet all of you in the HALF-WAY or maybe on the Crossroad

JERIMIAH 6:16

[iulian28ti]

man, the only evidence you provide is the bible. i agree there is room for more than just historical facts to prove/disprove the existence of jesus, but you still go in circles

The bible says God exists. M is P
Assume God is the author of the bible. S is M
Therefore, God exists. S is P

This is where the circularity kicks in. If you would have payed attention to the logics classes instead of Bro Eli, you would understand from the first place.
The conclusion is used to convince you the minor premise is true. This is a fallacy.
We can use C as P2, but it would still be a fallacy, because we would not have a syllogism.

Now towards the question.

Q. Do we see air or do we feel it
Sight and touch are human senses. God is not material thus the analogy cannot be applied.

Do we see LOVE or ANGER unless if we DO IT
Everything exists. Emotions are states of mind, not materials, nor spirits. The analogy does not apply.

Can we reach GOD unless if We DIE
This is what we are talking about, a sentient god and the religious belief. An analogy cannot be applied. Again you're going in circles. You're trying to use an unproved conclusion to prove me the conclusion can be proved.

Can we undestand all the things in this earth?
We have been given a ~80 year medium life expectancy. It is enough time to learn everything that can be learned about the place we live in.

IS SATAN is LIGHT?
I consider deities as personifications of good, evil and nature's laws, so it's relative.

but not BRIGHT LUCIFER TURNS to WICKEDNESS FROM GOOD TO BAD and ALREADY JUDGE and COMDEMED by GOD.
That star never hurt us. Even the name and mystical implications say it's not a bad guy.

Lucifer: lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring". Light bringer.:cool03:

[johnb1]

WOW getting more (^^,) meaningful alright GO GO GO.

GOODBYE AND GOOD BLESS (^^,) ARIGATO, SAYONARA TAKE CARE ALWAYS

Sincerely yours in Christ Jesus our LORD and SAVIOR,

Brother Johnb1