What Will Historians Say About Us (The United States)?

[Singularity]

This being Armageddon Online, I doubt I'll have to convince too many people that the US is not an immortal state. We are militarily the most powerful of our time, nobody's disputing that, but our economic supremacy is slipping, and culturally, well, let's just say that we may not be within the event horizon of the black hole, but we're starting to feel the pull.

So a thousand years from now, when only scholars will speak the English language, what do you suppose they might say about us?

Maybe that we overextended ourselves? That our civilization was built upon energy consumption that was unsustainable? Maybe they'll note that we would never have reached our level of achievement without our imperialist policies.

Or will it go the other direction? They might say that because literacy and learning were placed in such high regard, maybe we'll be the new standard by which the following ones will be judged, much like ancient Greece. Maybe they'll say that we hadn't yet created an enlightened society, but that's what the majority of us were working towards.

Or maybe the post-apocalyptic world, filled with a combination of mutants and former vault dwellers will think of us as the ancients who were both technically more advanced than they can imagine, but ultimately unable to control what we have wrought.

What will they say about our architecture? Personally, I think that it's too utilitarian. Buildings in our culture are not art, they're functional.

What about our form of government? Democracies are nothing more than mob rules, but we balance it with a court that is supposed to protect the rights of the minority.

What will they say about our technical achievements? It is true that almost all of us have electricity, indoor plumbing, computers, refrigerators, washing machines, and automobiles. Will future generations have all of these things, or will these things all seem primitive to them?

Discuss.

[dcg123]

That was quick! She would have lasted longer if she wouldn't have paid her suitors.

[gordon]

What Will Historians Say About Us (The United States)?

I will tell you all what the Historians would say about the (United States Of America) that would be, Atleast the (United States Of America) had the BALLS TO STANDUP to defend what is right. The (United States Of America) does know what is best for the world.

[Singularity]

I will tell you all what the Historians would say about the (United States Of America) that would be, Atleast the (United States Of America) had the BALLS TO STANDUP to defend what is right. The (United States Of America) does know what is best for the world.

So genocide against the native inhabitants was right? Slavery was right? Starting an unprovoked war of aggression in Iraq was right? Being the only country to use not one but two nuclear weapons during war time was right? Fighting a war in Vietnam for no reason other than conflicting ideologies was right? Usually history doesn't look favorably on these sorts of things, but then when we occasionally pull our heads out of our asses, we can be a force for good as well, such as when we helped stop Hitler and Japan, and actually spent the time and money to rebuild the countries we destroyed.

[gordon]

So genocide against the native inhabitants was right? Slavery was right? Starting an unprovoked war of aggression in Iraq was right? Being the only country to use not one but two nuclear weapons during war time was right? Fighting a war in Vietnam for no reason other than conflicting ideologies was right? Usually history doesn't look favorably on these sorts of things, but then when we occasionally pull our heads out of our asses, we can be a force for good as well, such as when we helped stop Hitler and Japan, and actually spent the time and money to rebuild the countries we destroyed.

Being the only country to use not one but two nuclear weapons during war time was right?

such as when we helped stop Hitler and Japan,

Your saying it is wrong for America to use the two nukes, then you say it was ok to stop Japan.

Most of those of what YOU mentioned IS still being done today, in today's world by other countries. Where is the U.N when the world needs help? Nowhere. So who is there to help? America.

[Singularity]

Your saying it is wrong for America to use the two nukes, then you say it was ok to stop Japan.

How is it contradictory to say that it was right to stop Japan, which attacked us without provocation, and that it was wrong to use nukes on them. There are these other weapons we can use, which don't cause massive damage to the environment and cause massive suffering from radiation poisoning after they've been used. They're called conventional weapons, and we used them to great effect against Hitler. Many agree that using nukes removed our moral superiority in this matter, particularly when talking about banning the things or keeping them from falling into the arsenals of countries that are currently non-nuclear.


Most of those of what YOU mentioned IS still being done today, in today's world by other countries. Where is the U.N when the world needs help? Nowhere. So who is there to help? America.

So you support the notion that it's up to the US to police the world? Why is that our responsibility? Countries tend to fail when they become militarily overextended. One of the big signs of an impending collapse is a major economic crash.

[gordon]

The American Goverment should stop playing games if they really want to fix the problem about the 'collapse is a major economic crash."

Congress should allow the use of the 'Secret American Toys' to be used openly, so the world knows who IS the world police.

[Singularity]

The American Goverment should stop playing games if they really want to fix the problem about the 'collapse is a major economic crash."

Congress should allow the use of the 'Secret American Toys' to be used openly, so the world knows who IS the world police.

Since this forum is about history, you should go back and look to see what usually happens to nations that have a habit of dominating through force. Particularly, see the Assyrians, the Romans, and the Toltecs. It usually doesn't work out that well for them. Everybody around them ends up hating them and as soon as they catch a sign of weakness, they pounce.

Also, all governments in North, South, and Central America are American governments. It is only through arrogance and ethnocentrism that we call ourselves Americans to the exclusion of everybody else who lives on this side of the globe.

[Boson]

I think in 1,000 years they won't be focused on the minutiae, it will read more like this;

The United States was best remembered for giving birth to the Internet, the first global communications system allowing people all over the word instant interpersonal communication. It was there that people realized that we are one race, one people, one community, one species, sharing one planet with finite resources.

In the 21st century the world was in chaos. Economic crisis and global instability brought the world to the brink of destruction. Using the power of the Internet, the population banded together and used their collective power to outlaw war and forced governments to dismantle their weapons and eliminate their armies.

From that point in history mankind began to work collectively to solve the problems of the era. The monies and equipment formerly dedicated to military might were redirected to the production of food and shelter for the entire population. The new spirit of cooperation amongst the world’s population brought technological, medical, and social advances so quickly that poverty, hunger, and disease were eliminated in less than one generation.

Thus began the age of enlightenment, prosperity and peace we have enjoyed for the last 900 years.

[lycanox]

The United states did not invent the Internet. CERN did.

[Boson]

The United states did not invent the Internet. CERN did.

"The Internet" was a DARPA project.


The Internet as we know it today, in the mid-1990s, traces it origins back to a Defense Department project in 1969. The subject of the project was wartime digital communications. At that time the telephone system was about the only theater-scale communications system in use. A major problem had been identified in its design - its dependence on switching stations that could be targeted during an attack. Would it be possible to design a network that could quickly reroute digital traffic around failed nodes? A possible solution had been identified in theory. That was to build a "web" of datagram network, called an "catenet", and use dynamic routing protocols to constantly adjust the flow of traffic through the catenet. The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) launched the DARPA Internet Program.


The "http" part of it, years later, was credited to CERN.


The idea of hypertext has been around for more than a decade, but in 1989 a team at the European Center for Particle Research (CERN) in Switzerland developed a set of protocols for transferring hypertext via the Internet. In the early 1990s it was enhanced by a team at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) at the University of Illinois - one of NSF's supercomputer centers. The result was NCSA Mosaic, a graphical, point-and-click hypertext browser that made Internet easy. The resulting explosion in "Web sites" drove the Internet into the public eye.

http://www.freesoft.org/CIE/Topics/57.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

[lycanox]

"The Internet" was a DARPA project.

The "http" part of it, years later, was credited to CERN.
The use of web pages and HTML://www.something.something is what defines the internet.
And since DARPA didn't use that yet. It is simply not the internet but something else that preceded the internet.

Otherwise you might as well call the telephone/telegram and post network or smoke signals the internet.

[MaximumPain]

So genocide against the native inhabitants was right?
Slavery was right?
Starting an unprovoked war of aggression in Iraq was right? Nope those are all bad but the USA is certainly not the first and will probably not be the last commit such nasty acts.

Being the only country to use not one but two nuclear weapons during war time was right? I understand and agree with the reasoning on this one an invasion of the Japanese islands was estimated to cost a million American casualties and countless more Japaneses casualties many of them civilians using those bombs saved millions of lives and gave us a look at the horror that those weapons would bring if used in mass.



Fighting a war in Vietnam for no reason other than conflicting ideologies was right? There is an argument out there that simply by fighting the north that communism was checked. I dont fully agree with the statement but I feel its worth mention.


Usually history doesn't look favorably on these sorts of things, but then when we occasionally pull our heads out of our asses, we can be a force for good as well, such as when we helped stop Hitler and Japan, and actually spent the time and money to rebuild the countries we destroyed.
America has done a lot of good around the world. As far as empires go we have been pretty good compared to Rome, the Mongols, the Spaniards. Even the English have some genocides and war crimes in their history. We have come a long way to have these standards that would have been laughed at 100 years ago.

History will not be kind but will probably not be as harsh as we think regarding the actions of America. I dont think that George Bush will get very good treatment however and neither will our corporations but then again they say the winners write the history so who knows?

[MaximumPain]

The use of web pages and HTML://www.something.something is what defines the internet.
And since DARPA didn't use that yet. It is simply not the internet but something else that preceded the internet.

Otherwise you might as well call the telephone/telegram and post network or smoke signals the internet.

Your reaching there Lycanox. America was the first to create a connected back bone that spanned a nation with redundant connections. The internet is a series of routers, computers and connecting media that was working before anyone was using HTML.

[Nasik]

Since this forum is about history, you should go back and look to see what usually happens to nations that have a habit of dominating through force. Particularly, see the Assyrians, the Romans, and the Toltecs. It usually doesn't work out that well for them. Everybody around them ends up hating them and as soon as they catch a sign of weakness, they pounce.

Also, all governments in North, South, and Central America are American governments. It is only through arrogance and ethnocentrism that we call ourselves Americans to the exclusion of everybody else who lives on this side of the globe.


I agree with you. It's worthy to note that common enemies can sometimes make strange bedfellows.

I wonder, because our societies today seem to evolve (or devolve) at a much faster rate, how long do you think the historians will say was the reign of the US Empire.

[Goldmoon]

Honestly, I don't think we have 1000 years...

But hypothetically, if there was still life on Earth, they would say that not just the US, but all countries, nearly destroyed the planet, they brought nature to a state of unbalance that was almost irreversible. They would say that the turn of the century was perilous.

By that time, we would be well off this planet, we would have space stations, other planets, ways to travel to other star systems. But the problem is, we will destroy ourselves before we can even get off this one. The timing is perfect with this system.

[lycanox]

Your reaching there Lycanox. America was the first to create a connected back bone that spanned a nation with redundant connections. The internet is a series of routers, computers and connecting media that was working before anyone was using HTML.
Nonsense. the internet is the use of HTML. And not just the use of wires or other means to connect signals.
If we go by your standards. The telegraph or the telephone would be the internet too.



I agree with you. It's worthy to note that common enemies can sometimes make strange bedfellows.

I wonder, because our societies today seem to evolve (or devolve) at a much faster rate, how long do you think the historians will say was the reign of the US Empire.
I would say roughly 75 years. Asuming they still survive for 10 years.

[iulian28ti]

Nonsense. the internet is the use of HTML. And not just the use of wires or other means to connect signals.
If we go by your standards. The telegraph or the telephone would be the internet too.

HTML is the language upon which web pages are built.
HTTP is the protocol through which these pages are transferred.
Besides HTTP there are many other networking protocols.

What differs an internet network from a telephone network is the way how connections are established. To be more explicit, the wonder of the internet is that it does not require only one gateway, it can manually or dynamically reset its gateway, its server. This way, if one fails, and if the infrastructure exists, it can connect through the others. This differs in many network types and protocols.

Here's a quick look.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/NetworkTopologies.png

[Mezurashi]

back to topic --

The United States of America was the First Nation in History to put down, In Writing, as Part of it's Constitution, the concept that All Persons are Equal under God and the Laws of Man.

forget the mess that's been made of that basic concept, forget my anti-Americanism, forget even my deep and abiding racism (which I admit to at the same time I try to keep it in check) ...

the USA was the First Nation in Human History to not only Conceptualize the idea of Full Equality - they had the balls to put it down in writing.

we can argue for ever about the failings and shortfalls and all that ... but when I think of the whole existence of the USA I keep coming back to that basic precept of the initial founding.

All the Social Evolution we've seen in the past 200+ years owed something to that idea and that document.

(and remember, this is coming from a self-proclaimed anti-Imperialist, anti-American)

[lycanox]

Yet it still took more than 100 years before they actually started following that rule and groups like woman and african americans gained equal rights.

[Mezurashi]

Yet it still took more than 100 years before they actually started following that rule and groups like woman and african americans gained equal rights.

as I said, "we can argue for ever about the failings and shortfalls and all that ... but when I think of the whole existence of the USA I keep coming back to that basic precept of the initial founding."

regardless of their track record - the Fact remains that the USA was still the first to Put It Down In Writing ...

I am most certainly NOT promoting the USA as a paragon of virtuous action, or intent.

compared to previous 'Social Compact Evolutions' this was the first one that Did Not Specify 'Land Owners, Nobility or Clergy' as being anything but just like the rest of us.

and the THREAD TOPIC was what will the Historians say about the USA 1000 years from now.

so I took that and went with it - I hadn't realized that you were inacapable of abstract thought.

from now on, Lycanox, I will make sure everything I post is ONLY about your particular POV and try to prevent my stepping your sensitive toes ... lol, yeah, right ...

or are you just trying to stir shit up for its own sake? :w00t:

[Nasik]

So a thousand years from now, when only scholars will speak the English language, what do you suppose they might say about [the US]?

There's some foreboding in your question!

If we suppose that the US falls (as did Rome) what will be said about it will likely be written by the victors. Who the victors are and they way in which the US falls will invariably impact their narrative.

We know (from experience) that victors (even the intelligensia within the victorious societies) are poor historians. They are often biased in their recounting of history. It is difficult to find, for example, an American Historian today lauding the actions of the then Soviet Union during the cold war era - I'm sure they're are some around but they are the pariahs of academia.

So that's the first important thing - the assumption that whatever is written will be written by an outright enemy of the US or at least, a rival, and so, the narrative will likely be negatively biased.

What would they write?

My guess is that they would write that the US suffered from imperial overreach - that in its hubris for global hegemony it made fatal errors. Likely, it will trace certain key events that set into motion its eventual demise. It may also discuss at length the steady corruption of its hedonistic and self-centered population; and, probably, in the end conclude - whatever happened to it - it had coming and it will be a lesson in the future for why gunboat diplomacy and unbridled capitalism needs to be avoided (if you value a peaceful and egalitarian planet that is).

[kadunk]

america will never be history
however.....anyone that tries will be history
where did this come from..

[DontBeAfraid]

where did this come from..Your face hole?

[Assassin X]

Your face hole?
Your find his face hole hot don't you? Admit it! :P

[HindSight]

LOOK BACK ON HISTORY

The Place: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
The Theme: DEMOCRACY [aka rule by the mass mob]
The Nature: violent [the devil incarnate]
The Personality: Schizophrenic [believing itself to be THE world power, a self-made god]
The Spirit: to be number One at all costs

In our look back in history today, we will examine not only the physical geo make-up of the central portion of North America, but also the culture of that region during the beginning of the 21st century. Readers are cautioned that the following content contains violence and may not be suitable for persons under the age of Adult.

Geological: At the turn of the century, the central portion of North America was still one solid land mass. This region was divided into fifty-plus sub-regions known as States. Collectively those States were known as ‘The United States’. Open prairie lands were covered by a substance known as ‘cement‘. This powdered solid rock pushed back all nature into the smallest patches of arable land, while the people of that culture invented combustion engine machines that spewed deadly poisons into the atmosphere. The human population was wildly out of control over the entire globe, with unimaginable numbers in the 20s BILLION range. This people had a fascination with putting fire into the air. Inventions such as factories, automobiles, airplanes, rockets, ‘defense systems’, ‘space programs’ literally extracted the resources from the ground, burned said resources on the surface, then sent such poisonous gases and smoke and pollutants into the air. Like piss-ants, they stacked their housing one atop another to empirical heights and called such dwellings ‘skyscrapers’. Anyone of intelligence would think they would realize the simplest laws of the physics of the earth would cause such structures to fall down. When the earth retaliated [gravity, earthquakes, seaquakes], like faithful ants, they would build their collapsed mounds again. They were a culture that held firm beliefs in the motto: why walk when you can ride? They would attach four wheels to anything that could move and hop on. They would ride their wheels over the paths made of powder rock. These paths they called highways.
So if one could surmise an image of this central region, one need only picture a gray flat land, covered in hard powered rock, with structures reaching the clouds and its people riding on platforms with four wheels. Beneath the ground, one should think of titanic holes and tunnels where the natural minerals and soils and dirt were literally pulled out from under this colossal weight known as cement and cities and metropolises and gross over-populations. There were no indigenous animals, no wildlife, no natures greenery, and no room for ‘natural‘ living. Even the mountains were destroyed, laid in tracks for skiing, and covered with the masses of humans. The holes under the ground were then filled with human excrements and yet more of their machines on yet more powdered paths of rock known as ‘subway systems’. The unsolid ground could not sustain such weights and the entire civilization collapsed in on itself when tectonics shifted, nudging the main land mass. Their ‘state of the art’ cultures often fell like a House of Cards: domino-style. We can only wonder: What were they thinking??? Our segment continues tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[HindSight]

LOOK BACK ON HISTORY: Segment #2

The Place: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
The Theme: DEMOCRACY [aka rule by the mass mob]
The Nature: violent [the devil incarnate]
The Personality: Schizophrenic [believing itself to be THE world power, a self-made god]
The Spirit: to be number One at all costs

In our last segment, we looked at the physical traits of the region known as The United States. We discussed the flattening of the land, the covering of that land with the substance known as cement, their destruction of wild life and nature, and their caveman-like fascination with putting fire into the sky while riding on four wheels and things that fly. The earth retaliated and brought down their House of Cards.
Now let us examine their political beliefs. The ‘nation’ - and I use the term loosely - was called a ‘republic’ yet dominated by ‘democracy’ - supposed rule by the mass mobs. This led to a ‘government’ to try to control the masses, which led to an Elite Few who attempted to control the government, which led to cries of New World Order [which tried to control the Elite], which led the masses to accuse the Elite of being power hungry, which led to rule by mass mobs through violence and over-throws, which led to the creation of a government to try to control the masses …. And so went the vicious circle of politics: a dog chasing its own tail.
There existed a thing called ‘religion’ - a belief, as in prehistoric days - of yet another thing called ‘God’ or gods. The definition of religion is: the creation of a means to blame something or someone else for the actions/events caused by Man himself. The second definition was: when an action/event could not be explained by Man, blame it/credit it to the imaginary god/gods. When questioned concerning their actions, usually the first words out of their mouths were: ‘God told me to do it!’ Thus all responsibility for Man’s actions were shifted to something that no one could prove … or disprove … existed. At the very least it could be said these peoples preferred their imaginary worlds or virtual worlds to the true world around them. While they lived in their imaginations, picturing themselves to be more than flesh animals, above nature itself and creation itself, they destroyed the very planet that was keeping them alive. Again: one can only wonder: What were they thinking … or were they thinking at all? Historical evidences proves: not at all. Man lived his life very UNCONSCIOUS of the world around him.
And what did they do to the creature called Man? A common theme was that if a chemical existed, lets inject into Man and see what happens to him! If the chemical did not exist, lets invent it and inject into Man and see what happens to him! The common illusion was that Man itself was a spiritual creature, so whatever it did to the body that housed itself was simply a means to escape the body [or improve it] and get the true Man [the spirit] ‘closer to God’ - the creature not proven to exist at all. Go figure.
Man altered his own DNA to [in his own opinion] good and bad results. Oh we are doing it to increase our life cycle! Oh we are doing it to ‘cure’ the diseases [we created in the first place by interbreeding, abandonment of sexual responsibility, polluting our environment, so forth and so on]. History records that the creature Man, when he ran out of lesser lives to destroy [flora, fauna, plants, animals, things that were alive], turned on himself in the never-ending quest to be his own God. Games of ‘who is King of the mountain’ led to world wars, destruction of the world, billions of deaths, attempts at world dominance … and starvation and disease for those ‘lucky enough’ to have ‘survived’. Man now dwelled in the Hell he had created. In his attempt to be God, he had in fact, become Satan. The King of the Mountain Game was played by none better than this region we are examining: The United States, known today as The Devil Incarnate. Again we caution our viewers that parental guidance is advised. We will continue our segment on tomorrow’s broadcast. Stay tuned.

[HindSight]

LOOK BACK ON HISTORY: Segment #3

The Place: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
The Theme: DEMOCRACY [aka rule by the mass mob]
The Nature: violent [the devil incarnate]
The Personality: Schizophrenic [believing itself to be THE world power, a self-made god]
The Spirit: survival at all costs
The Question: Has the dog finally stopped chasing its own tail

We have looked at the geological land mass, now broken into five pieces. We have examined the rise and fall of The United States through its erroneous scientific miscalculation, its House of Cards, its mistreatment of the land mass it lived on, its political structure, and its belief system. After the third great fire that virtually left the region in ashes, destroyed, a new emergence of man began. This time it began through its other half: the woman.
The males of Man had lived their lives as if they were Baby Bam-Bam of The Flintstones. If something moved, they ready their big sticks wearing their caveman clothes: BAM BAM! They smashed it, destroyed it. It was the female of Man that finally put her hands on her hips and looked at the males and said: ‘What the fuck are you doing?’ “Bam Bam!” was the males usual answer. ‘Bam Bam my ass’, was her normal response.
So let’s move forward now. The beliefs in religions continued as females took control. The males, of course, thought the world was no place for women - until the males destroyed themselves and left the women to outnumber the males, easily four to one. The males cried ‘foul!’ and tried to psych the women out by saying the women needed the men to procreate. The women responded with ‘ever heard of immaculate conception?’ We have a god, we don‘t need mortal men. And if you haven’t heard of that, we did all that DNA testing and we have the knowledge to combine two DNA strands and create children in a nifty invention called a test tube. Sperm is no longer needed.’
The Males became obsolete.
So the later half of the millennium was dominated by the female of the species; the female gaining control of religions, politics, and what remained of the earth. How is this possible that the female went from property to sex slave to world power? You guessed it - the failed military (and the successful DNA) experiments of The United States. The U.S. dominated the world in both fields. Their experimenting came back to bite them in the ass: dog chasing its own tail. Tomorrow we exam the later half of the millennium and what happened in this region known as the United States after the males fell. Gone were the days of ‘lets be number One’. Arriving were the days of ‘lets figure out how to survive: THE AGE OF SCIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE’. We will examine the explosion of scientific discoveries that lead to true space exploration beyond our solar system, the restoration of the planet, the shedding of false belief systems, the harnessing of electro-magnetic power fields encompassing the earth itself, ’free’ energy, and the beginning of the understanding of creation [how the universe works on the physical level, also known as Understanding The Big Bang: the ‘DNA‘ of the Universe].
We will examine how the Age of Man became the age of Tribal Man, became the age of Arable [farmer] Man, became the age of Village Man, became the Age of City Man, became the age of local-Governing Man, became the Age of National [political] Man, became the Age of Global [dominence] Man, became the Age of Solar Man [exploration of the solar system via telescopes and satellites, circuit 1960s], became the Age of Galactic Man [exploration of the galaxies via telescopes and satellites and eventually true space exploration, circuit late 20th, earily 21st centuries], which WILL lead to us into the coming Age of Universal Man [modern 2800s to to early 3rd millennium].
When you go home tonight, the question I want you to ask yourself is: has the dog finally learned to stop chasing its own tail? Did it take the United States, The Devil Incarnate, The Great Satan which knocked us all down and nearly destroyed the earth ... for us to finally awake from our illussions and see ourselves? We will explore this answer tomorrow.
Stay tuned.

[Beatnik Bob]

I think we will be remembered, not for our politics as much, but mostly for our culture. I think we'll be remembered as the inventors of jazz, blues, rock, techno, hiphop, etc.

We'll be remembered as the inventors of baseball and basketball...the creators of mass commercialism, the internet, and the computer.

[bluenose_ian]

I think we will be remembered, not for our politics as much, but mostly for our culture. I think we'll be remembered as the inventors of jazz, blues, rock, techno, hiphop, etc.

We'll be remembered as the inventors of baseball and basketball...the creators of mass commercialism, the internet, and the computer.

Remembered for the invention of Rock?

Are you sure about that.

please explain where you think the origins of Rock came from.
Techno too for that matter.

[Traveler]

You may be looking at this wrong.

The Greek empire was the top dog for a while and then they succumbed to the Romans. But the fact remains that the Greeks are still here but lacking the influence they had as an empire.

However the things that the Greeks discovered and developed remain and still have an influence over our civilization 2000 years later. Same thing can be said for the Romans.

The US will fall as a world power and their sphere of influence will pass away but the land will remain occupied by the survivors that will probably recall their glory days. But another empire will grow up in its place because power does not like a vacuum. Unfortunately the next will be the beast empire that will depend on the technology the yanks developed to empower itself.

The US will be known as a civilization that had the greatest potential but squandered its power through greed and a loss of moral ethics. There would never have been a financial melt down if those trusted with the power of control had the moral fortitude to be honest in their dealings. But now it is too late. Its passing into history has already begun and the chances of recovery slim to none. Too many enemies waiting for a chance for pay back. Unlike the Russians they will not be granted the space of time needed to recover.

[Beatnik Bob]

Remembered for the invention of Rock?

Are you sure about that.
Well, since americans invented the electric guitar...and were the first to use it for an original sound..
Also, blues originated here. And the first rock and roll originated here. As far as the term "rock n roll" goes, I think that was coined somewhere in ohio. Not sure where.
But as far as I am aware, that may have been the only thing ohioans have ever really done. :D
(Just kidding! Any ohioans on the board, please don't lynch me. I respect your great contribution to rock...even if all you did was name it).

But also, if you come over to chicago, there's a whole museum dedicated to rock. They sell chicago blues CDs for tourists, etc. And talk about how rock started in places like chicago and st. louis..the places that had before been the jazz capitals.


Techno too for that matter.
Americans invented the synthesizer.
Also, I view techno as an offshoot of disco, funk, etc. It's definitely american...
If it wasn't american, I wouldn't be able to think of a single other country on the planet that could have invented it...
Well, actually, I suppose my first guess would be britain if americans hadn't invented it...

But then again, was techno that popular in britain when it was invented (70s?)? Because whenever I think about british 70s music, I think of rock..
Did they like techno back then?

[bluenose_ian]

Well, since americans invented the electric guitar...and were the first to use it for an original sound..
Also, blues originated here. And the first rock and roll originated here. As far as the term "rock n roll" goes, I think that was coined somewhere in ohio. Not sure where.
But as far as I am aware, that may have been the only thing ohioans have ever really done. :D
(Just kidding! Any ohioans on the board, please don't lynch me. I respect your great contribution to rock...even if all you did was name it).

But also, if you come over to chicago, there's a whole museum dedicated to rock. They sell chicago blues CDs for tourists, etc. And talk about how rock started in places like chicago and st. louis..the places that had before been the jazz capitals.


Americans invented the synthesizer.
Also, I view techno as an offshoot of disco, funk, etc. It's definitely american...
If it wasn't american, I wouldn't be able to think of a single other country on the planet that could have invented it...
Well, actually, I suppose my first guess would be britain if americans hadn't invented it...

But then again, was techno that popular in britain when it was invented (70s?)? Because whenever I think about british 70s music, I think of rock..
Did they like techno back then?

lol ok, Yes The Electric Guitar was invented in the USA and Blues originated from the deep south , which was probally where the guitar solo's came from.

Suppose its a matter of perspective on exactly who the first rock band was, Blues influenced alot of Rock and Roll, Rock n Roll influenced Rock.

But the first Rock Band, Surely you cant nick that from The Brits, Cream or Black Sabbath was surely the first Rock Band?


Disco! thought it would have been the Bee Gees in the 70's, but nah your right, it came from New York Disco scene in the 60's

Techno mid to late 80s, surely that was euro and came from the party Islands, damn, no it didnt, came from Detroit but with a mix of flavour from Europe which was influenced by disco so we can share that invention.

Have the lot lol , just dont nick our Rock Bands.

[Beatnik Bob]

lol ok, Yes The Electric Guitar was invented in the USA and Blues originated from the deep south , which was probally where the guitar solo's came from.
Nah, it was the "flight from the south."
African americans were leaving the south after WWI to find better jobs, less discrimination and...no KKK.

Like jazz, blues started in the north/midwest. :D


Suppose its a matter of perspective on exactly who the first rock band was, Blues influenced alot of Rock and Roll, Rock n Roll influenced Rock.
As you may know, I despise wikipedia. It is an intellectual whore. :D

But in this case, I checked the sources, and found the article to be accurate. At least for the portions I'm quoting. :vbroll:


FROM LINK: Rock and roll (often written as rock & roll or rock 'n' roll) is a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s, primarily from a combination of the blues, country music and gospel music. Rock and roll began achieving popularity in the 1960s on every part of the globe. Though elements of rock and roll can be heard in country records of the 1930s, and in blues records from the 1920s, rock and roll did not acquire its name until the 1950s. An early form of rock and roll was rockabilly, which combined country and jazz with influences from traditional Appalachian folk music and gospel.

And as it turns out, we got to colonize you guys. :;):


FROM LINK: In the 1950s, Britain was well placed to receive American rock and roll music and culture. It shared a common language, had been exposed to American culture through the stationing of troops in the country, and shared many social developments, including the emergence of distinct youth sub-cultures, which in Britain included the Teddy Boys. Trad Jazz became popular, and many of its musicians were influenced by related American styles, including boogie woogie and the blues. The skiffle craze, led by Lonnie Donegan, utilised amateurish versions of American folk songs and encouraged many of the subsequent generation of rock and roll, folk, R&B and beat musicians to start performing. At the same time British audiences were beginning to encounter American rock and roll, initially through films including Blackboard Jungle (1955) and Rock Around the Clock (1955).


FROM LINK: American rock and roll acts such as Elvis Presley, Little Richard and Buddy Holly thereafter became major forces in the British charts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll


But the first Rock Band, Surely you cant nick that from The Brits, Cream or Black Sabbath was surely the first Rock Band?
I don't know a lot about british rock bands, so I had to look that one up...and according to what I read, black sabbath formed in 1968.

Now Im not an expert on music, but elvis was definitely kicking it in the 50s...

And I remember hearing about how mccartney was inspired by elvis.


Disco! thought it would have been the Bee Gees in the 70's, but nah your right, it came from New York Disco scene in the 60's
Naturally. Havn't you seen american gangster? Disco's been around..

But historically, we've always been about 10+ years ahead of you guys when it comes to music. :D

I wonder what we'll invent next...before we don't exist anymore. :yikes:


Techno mid to late 80s,
Don't ask why, but I was watching "Mortal Combat" a couple days ago (it came on HBO)...and it had a richly techno soundtrack. :grin
It was in 1980 I think.
And generally, a genre has to have already been around for about 5 years, before it is put on the soundtrack to a movie. It has to have some time to actually develop into that genre.
Like it was decades before they started playing rock on mainstream radio, and decades more before any foreigner was exposed to it.

Id say it was about the same with techno. It probably didn't hit international status until the mid-1980s. But you know, if a tree falls in the woods and a brit doesn't hear it, it still fell. :D

(Heh, juuust messing with you).

[Beatnik Bob]

Like I said, I don't know a ton about british bands, so I looked into Cream...

And I found out that they had quite a few blues songs, including one written by Muddy Waters.
(By the way, I love muddy waters. If I use pandora, they are in my top 5 station picks).

http://www.chicagobluesguitar.com/Muddy_Waters%20copy.html


FROM LINK: The Rolling Stones named themselves after Waters' the song,Rollin Stone," (also known as "Catfish Blues," which Jimi Hendrix covered as well).Cream covered his song Rollin and a Tumblin” "" on their 1966 debut album Fresh Cream as Eric Clapton was a big fan of Muddy Waters when he was growing up, and influenced Claptons music career . The song was also adapted by Bob Dylan in the album "Modern Times." One of Led Zeppelin’s biggest hits, Whole Lotta Love "", is based upon the Muddy Waters hit, "You Need Love,"

I had no idea that was where the Rolling Stones got their name though. :vbroll:

[Singularity]

You may be looking at this wrong.

The Greek empire was the top dog for a while and then they succumbed to the Romans. But the fact remains that the Greeks are still here but lacking the influence they had as an empire.

Thoughtful post, but of course I'm going to nit-pick it a bit.

For starters, the Greeks were a civilization, not an empire - at least not until Phillip II conquered all of Greece in the 4th century BC, and then his son Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world after his death. There were a couple hundred years where Ancient Greece was part of one quarter of the empire Alexander carved out when he went to Asia and knocked out the Persians and everything else short of India and China. However, that was the very end of a very long period in human history that we refer to as Ancient Greece, and yes, it was conquered by the Roman empire. Prior to that there was the Delian League and the Pellopennesian league, which stood opposed to one another during the classical age, but neither of those qualified as an empire because they were composed of autonomous city-states.


However the things that the Greeks discovered and developed remain and still have an influence over our civilization 2000 years later. Same thing can be said for the Romans.

Very true, though much of that was lost with the fall of the Romans and wouldn't be with us today had it not been preserved by the Muslims. That aside, once Europe's renaissance took place, we found Aristotle and the other philosophers and tried to reconcile their reason-based philosophy of life with the faith-based philosophy promoted by the church. It was accomplished by Thomas Aquinas, and required quite a bit of mental gymnastics.

Aside from inheriting logic from the Greeks, we also inherited their mythology, which lives on almost as a cultural overlay. How many cultural icons of today are drawn from the Greeks? The Apollo theater, the names of the planets (which are Roman variants of the Greek god's names), much of our language, etc. etc. I have a whole lecture on audio that goes into just how much of our culture is descended directly from the Greeks and is taken for granted.


The US will fall as a world power and their sphere of influence will pass away but the land will remain occupied by the survivors that will probably recall their glory days.

This is likely. Western influence has only been dominant for five centuries, and it's very likely that something will rise up and seize dominance from us at some point.


But another empire will grow up in its place because power does not like a vacuum. Unfortunately the next will be the beast empire that will depend on the technology the yanks developed to empower itself.

I agree that there will probably be another empire, and I'm not convinced that it will be located on the land mass we call North America. We could very easily fracture and exist as several regions. In fact, I'd say that we're composed of several different cultural regions already: the south, the midwest, the east coast, the west coast, and of course the north central. Then there's Canada, which is like USA minor, with French.

If the US falls, and if it happens to take the rest of the world with it, I'm not convinced that our computer tech will survive. True, most of it is manufactured in Asia, so there's a chance, but the survival of that tech is dependent upon consumers. Remove the consumer base and it will wither away. You can see this in history with the disappearance and re-emergence of language during the Greek dark ages, and the fact that the Roman Empire literally forgot how to create the super-realistic sculptures that were invented by the Greeks. I could totally see technology regressing if the world suffers a Roman-scale collapse.


The US will be known as a civilization that had the greatest potential but squandered its power through greed and a loss of moral ethics.

That's highly debatable. I agree that it is squandering its potential through greed. Watch Capitalism: A Love Story and then try to tell me that what we have today is an equitable distribution of wealth. That said, the move to make the laws more permissive to lifestyles that are not mainstream while moving away from the control of the church is progress.


There would never have been a financial melt down if those trusted with the power of control had the moral fortitude to be honest in their dealings.

Definitely true. Business rewards sacrificing long-term sustainability for short-term gains, ie. bubbles.


But now it is too late. Its passing into history has already begun and the chances of recovery slim to none. Too many enemies waiting for a chance for pay back. Unlike the Russians they will not be granted the space of time needed to recover.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. I think it's one outcome that is possible, but there are other possibilities as well. The devaluing of the dollar simply means that the value of our currency might one day achieve parity with other currencies throughout the world. This means that the total wealth individuals in this country possess might even out with people throughout the rest of the world. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, but getting there is going to be a painful process. Another possible outcome is that we recover from this, much as we did in the early '80s. I believe that in order for that to happen, companies must be forced to make the creation of American jobs a priority. Until they stop getting rewarded for eliminating US jobs, we are going to be facing a weak economy.

Of course right now I'd argue that corporations have the kind of influence that nations once held. In almost every case, the people in power are put there by various corporations in exchange for those people using their power and influence to help them protect them. The people vote on whichever candidate strikes their fancy, but the bottom line is that once elected, most politicians aren't going to challenge the corps. Health care is one of the few cases where we've seen it happen and look at the pushing back, the bloody ruckus, and the outright lies that we're seeing from the right in order to protect the current broken system. It's a load of bullshit, but it's the exception that proves the rule of how corporations own the US government.

As for payback - as long as we remain the largest, most powerful military power, the US will be fine against foreign governments with an axe to grind. The problem comes when our debt has bled us dry and we're forced to stop investing in our military. That's how empires fall.

[Beatnik Bob]

Alexander carved out when he went to Asia and knocked out the Persians and everything else short of India and China.
Even india was affected.

Modern hindi actually has quite a few greek words in it, because of the invasion of alexander.

[weederbro]

'Also, I view techno as an offshoot of disco, funk, etc. It's definitely american...
If it wasn't american, I wouldn't be able to think of a single other country on the planet that could have invented it...
Well, actually, I suppose my first guess would be britain if americans hadn't invented it...'(Bob)


I'm surprised that Kraftwerk didn't get a nod as perhaps the greatest influence on techno, who probably inspired bands like Depeche Mode ('Just Can't Get Enough'), Soft Cell ('Tainted Love'), Ultravox, Human League ('Love Action'), Gary Numan ('Cars'), Cabaret Voltaire and Orchestral Manouvers in the Dark ('Enola Gay')etc.
A bit later you see Erasure reflecting a bit more of a disco flava and Bronski Beat emerging (More of a pop flava),
And you can't ignore Eurythmics ('Sweet Dreams') and definitley not New Order ('Blue Monday').

I think these bands are nearer to the family tree of Techno than Disco and Funk, I mean, just listen to them!
Techno just hardened the grooves, dropped vocals and technology helped a lot to evolve the general sound of Techno and Dub (my fave) :)

[Beatnik Bob]

I'm surprised that Kraftwerk didn't get a nod as perhaps the greatest influence on techno
Wasn't techno already in existence by the time they used it, though?


Techno just hardened the grooves, dropped vocals and technology helped a lot to evolve the general sound of Techno and Dub (my fave) :)
You like dubstep! Whaaaat?

That's awesome man.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Um-VnJrvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8GI19QR20A

Heyoka, virtual boy, and kraddy are probably my favorite steppers. :D

Of course, ratatat is too, but I'm not sure how dubstep he is. :vbroll:

[bluenose_ian]

Check this out:dubstep!


Cool vid Beatnik, very trippy, like the 2nd one, has a feel of drum and bass to it.


Gary Numan ('Cars'),

yeh weederbro,bands like this int heearly 80's was defo an influence on the techno/ electronic sound,

which in itself has influenced many others to remix this song, love checkin youtube on the different mixes on just this song alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwgud48pdnw&feature=related

Not heard of Kraftwerk though, shall have to check that out.

sorry to the OP, LOL, Its becoming a techno thread.

[phedrereine]

But the first Rock Band, Surely you cant nick that from The Brits, Cream or Black Sabbath was surely the first Rock Band?

Actually, Black Sabbath is considered to be the first heavy metal band. Led Zeppelin was coined "heavy blues" but straddles the line, as well.


Techno mid to late 80s, surely that was euro and came from the party Islands, damn, no it didnt, came from Detroit but with a mix of flavour from Europe which was influenced by disco so we can share that invention.

Kraftwerk is the "father" of electronic dance music. They were on the scene in the very early 70's, and ahead of their time by about a decade. And they were inspired by the experimental music scene in Germany at the time (krautrock, which combined a lot of influences, including psychedelia, classical and a minimalist, mechanical sound). They didn't get as much credit as they deserved in the U.S., at least, because Afrika Bambaataa made a bigger breakthrough here when he sampled parts of their song Trans Europe Express for Planet Rock. But yeah, Kraftwerk formed the foundation in shaping techno in the 80's and trance in the 90's (Goa trance really started in the 80's, though), not to mention the New Wave era and the New Romantics (Visage, Ultravox, Human League) that were so predominant in 80's popular synth music.

We have rock and roll to thank for all of it, though, and if you want to get technical, Africa to thank for rock and roll. The music African Americans brought over gave us the beats and rhythms that gave way to gospel, jazz, rhythm and blues and the big band era. Little Richard and Bo Diddley were among the very first rock and roll stars, but it was Elvis who brought rock and roll to whites on a broad scale. He was pretty true to the raw, gritty spirit of rock and roll, too, until he switched to RCA records.



Back to the topic.

I wonder if historians will be able to see just how many traces of American culture infiltrated the entire world, and perhaps they will wonder if we weren't too whorish in selling our culture out of corporate greed to the point were we didn't have a distinct identity anymore. I have often wondered if, in some way, that will help bring about our downfall.

[Beatnik Bob]

We have rock and roll to thank for all of it, though, and if you want to get technical, Africa to thank for rock and roll.
I see rock as a join effort, actually. The whole concept of "blues" (as in a melodious ballad that is sung to a rhythm) was done by irish immigrants.

After rickenbacker made the electric guitar, it was used for the same things the acoustic guitar had been used for, only this time it had a different feel.

So then you had irish blues sung to an electric guitar.
Then, african americans added new types of drum beats, and a new raw vocal style, that made rock what it is today.

It was definitely a joint effort though...if either group had been absent, rock would be drastically different. Ballad, blues and the electric guitar are as much apart of rock as the emotional and raw vocals, and "rocking" drum beats.


Which is one of the things I think is most beautiful about america, (and maybe another thing it will be remembered for). The fact that people can come together and produce something that neither would have been able to produce on our own, is spectacular.

We need eachother. It gives new meaning to "e pluribus unum."

[weederbro]

Yes ian, I think I should have included Devo and Thomas Dolby and even Yazoo too.
I have to say though that I prefer Numan's original version of Cars.

Bob! nice clips and grooves, Thanks mate! I listen to a lot of stuff which I never get around to finding out who they are.
Listening to Kid Kenobi at present which isn't particularly Dub or D&B...:)

[medicvet]

Look there was an influence called Boogie that some say were among the origins of rock n' roll...rockabilly was where it was at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaX1NkE3rmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgN0D6AkUTk&feature=related

[Grutzez]

quick deviation back to the original topic :

'I will tell you all what the Historians would say about the (United States Of America) that would be, Atleast the (United States Of America) had the BALLS TO STANDUP to defend what is right. The (United States Of America) does know what is best for the world.'

hmm. balls? we ran from britain because we didn't want to pay taxes or attend church. we ruthlessly killed the rightful owners of the country in an unfair fire fight, and now consider ourselves noble because we let them whither away in trailer parks on small plots of land that should have been theirs for thousands, millions of more years, naturally progressing. instead, we're also now murdering their home, poisoning their land. we don't belong here, and if things go the way they are, which they will, we won't be america much longer. historians might say we're a bastard race. it would be a fair assesment, in all senses. the vikings, and the chinese before them knew enough to leave things be, to live and let live. ohh, but i do love the all american version of chinese food. especially the radio active orange chicken. omg....so good.

[Beatnik Bob]

historians might say we're a bastard race. it would be a fair assesment, in all senses.
That was the general nazi criticism as well...Americans were called a "mongrel people."

I'm actually proud of that characterization though.
I'm not ashamed that america is the cultural melting pot of the world. :thumbs:


the vikings, and the chinese before them knew enough to leave things be, to live and let live.
Like how the vikings raped, plundered, pillaged, and murdered all along northern europe...and helped contribute to the downfall of the carolingian empire.
(..That seems to be what they're chiefly known for, too).

And the chinese naval fleet went out to collect slaves from asia and africa...

[phedrereine]

hmm. balls? we ran from britain because we didn't want to pay taxes or attend church. we ruthlessly killed the rightful owners of the country in an unfair fire fight, and now consider ourselves noble because we let them whither away in trailer parks on small plots of land that should have been theirs for thousands, millions of more years, naturally progressing. instead, we're also now murdering their home, poisoning their land. we don't belong here, and if things go the way they are, which they will, we won't be america much longer. historians might say we're a bastard race. it would be a fair assesment, in all senses. the vikings, and the chinese before them knew enough to leave things be, to live and let live. ohh, but i do love the all american version of chinese food. especially the radio active orange chicken. omg....so good.

Mez already said that as much as he holds America in contempt for its numerous flaws and offenses, we did have the balls to stand up and work for a better standard of freedom and equality than the world knew at the time. Of course it wasn't perfect, not by a long shot. But it was better than anyone else had done at that point. And considering how young of a nation we were (and are still), and how much we accomplished in so short a time in achieving that equality, compared to the long history of slavery and oppression in other nations... I mean, it's really striking.

And the Vikings and the Chinese let things be? lol. I guess we won't go into the ravages committed by the Vikings and how they raided all over Europe into North Africa, or the struggles of Taiwan or Tibet against China... or how Vietnam was under Chinese rule for a thousand years... nah, let's not get into that.

[Grutzez]

gahh alright *hangs head* grutzez's lesson for today: think before you type after not sleeping well. yeah, the vikings and the chinese did all those lovely horrible things, just like the rest of the human race. and of course we have a certain amount of balls, we have to, dont we?
yeah, i enjoy the melting pot aspect, it makes for tolerance as much as intolerance, and brings new experience. im still sticking to the chinese food as my number one love though ;}

[phedrereine]

gahh alright *hangs head* grutzez's lesson for today: think before you type after not sleeping well. yeah, the vikings and the chinese did all those lovely horrible things, just like the rest of the human race. and of course we have a certain amount of balls, we have to, dont we?
yeah, i enjoy the melting pot aspect, it makes for tolerance as much as intolerance, and brings new experience. im still sticking to the chinese food as my number one love though ;}

Who doesn't love Chinese food? Yum...

But it's true, human beings seemingly have the equal potential to do vile things, indiscriminate of nationality. I think geographic location and the opportunity provided by natural occurrences and events allow separate cultures to evolve in different ways, but when it comes down to it... it seems all societies contribute their own horror and atrocities to the world... but they also contribute their own inventions, wonders and beauty, too...

[Grutzez]

agreed. its easiest to see in the way the languages developed.

[J. Magnum]

Greetings

What an interesting thread... one I have thought of myself from time to time...

Assuming there will be scholars in hundreds of years...:prayer::wink: It is such a shame that America - indeed so much of our entire civilization - has so much conflict and suffering embedded in its history. Sadly, it seems humans are unable to avoid these problems. So, maybe scholars in the future will be sick of talking about all the bad stuff - because there will be HEAPS - and decide to spend a bit of time dwelling on the good...

For example: yes, ROCK AND ROLL - though it's roots lie deep within those of other cultures, it was the good old USA that created rock STARS by giving it to us via radio and television. They were the ones who decided to plug it in and TURN IT UP!! Regardless of what happened after the mid 1950's, it was ROCK AND ROLL that allowed everything to come after it - and damn, there has been some good stuff since. Still, it was those early days that paved the way for so much of the world's popular culture as we know it. (This topic fascinates me really, I mean, when you listen to that early stuff the number one message is that a guy needs a car and a girl to marry. I guess if you give him a house and a couple of years with that high school sweetheart you end up with an image of the good old middle class :wink:)

America gave us style. Forget recently, but when America was at its strongest, it was the creator of style. No other country has influenced fashion, architecture and transport design the way America did in the first half of last century.

I could go on, but there is so much that the US has contributed to the world. The sad part is that it seems most of the greatness is already in the past. I love America, and really hope to get a good look at it in person one day, but right now, from over here, it looks like the boofheads that run the place have been doing dodgy stuff for a long time, and the clock it ticking.

But as usual, the peanuts who caused the problem will drag everyone but themselves down, and it will be left up to the good citizens of America to clean up the mess. And I think it will be this that is remembered.:wink:

[iolo]

I should think that most historians will say that plutocracy doesn't work because the very rich who control it detach ordinary people form their natural feelings into a yearning for lots of lots of stuff, guarded buy lots of lots of guns. The USA will be an interesting but rather embarrassing lesson in the way 'freedom' destroyed a very talented population who never thought their values through.

[lycanox]

Well to write down the last decade to the points that are actually worth remembering in the long run. It will likely look something like this.

2000 - 2009.
GWB president.
War on Terrorism.
911.
Start of worldwide Economic collapse.
First elected black president barrack Obama.

2010 - 2011.
Japan earthquake.

[lazserus]

The United States is not entirely unique. Similar republics have existed throughout history all over the world (mostly Western). The "Founding Fathers" of the U.S. Constitution and the Republic was a team made up of atheists, protestants, agnostics, British sympathizers, blah and blah. And for the most part, there was an argument over various socialist means of governing the body (capitalism as we know it came much later).

In any case, today's U.S. is absolutely nothing like 1950s U.S., or 1940s U.S., or 1930s U.S., and I can go on and on per decade as far back as 1860. Before 1860 changes made weren't decadally drastic like those of the 20th century. The U.S. didn't actually exist until around 1793, and even that date is questionable.


I should think that most historians will say that plutocracy doesn't work because the very rich who control it detach ordinary people form their natural feelings into a yearning for lots of lots of stuff, guarded buy lots of lots of guns. The USA will be an interesting but rather embarrassing lesson in the way 'freedom' destroyed a very talented population who never thought their values through.
I can't say I disagree with your distaste of the plutocratic issues that now and have infested U.S. politics for more than a century. To some degree the U.S. is modeled from Rome, and in retrospect we all know the Roman Empire was a political cesspool.

Despite the U.S. political arena and its wide range of financial corruption, America has offered much to global culture in so many ways: language, fashion, entertainment, etc. If the U.S. was an absolute scab on global culture, there wouldn't be a McDonald's or Burger King available in every major city around the world, nor would blockbuster Hollywood films turn up as currency in third world countries. And let us not forget the multitude of global offices the U.S. created or helped create.

One could easily call the U.S. a bane on the world, but use the same retrospect and consider the world without it. Consider WWI, WWII, the extensive operations in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia. Let us not also forget the vast number of developments in military technology that began in the U.S. and expanded, such the aircraft carrier, UAV, etc.

I think after the collapse of the U.S. (every government eventually fails), historians will look at facts. And they will use similar techniques our own do today. In retrospect we can describe all the reasons Rome failed. We can even go so far as to say it was predictable more than a century before A.D. 476. But I assure you it wasn't obvious to them.

[Beatnik Bob]

I can't say I disagree with your distaste of the plutocratic issues that now and have infested U.S. politics for more than a century. To some degree the U.S. is modeled from Rome, and in retrospect we all know the Roman Empire was a political cesspool.

[....]

I think after the collapse of the U.S. (every government eventually fails), historians will look at facts. And they will use similar techniques our own do today. In retrospect we can describe all the reasons Rome failed. We can even go so far as to say it was predictable more than a century before A.D. 476. But I assure you it wasn't obvious to them.
Rome is viewed rather positively in retrospect. It's architecture is honored, its culture, and military.
Nearly everything about it seems to be viewed positively, despite its bloody history of warfare, violence, and suppression.

How the U.S. will be remembered seems to be a parallel. The U.S. invented the skyscraper and modern architecture. U.S. architecture can now be seen from Beijing to Johannesburg. The entertainment industry will probably be remembered quite positively, as were the Roman arena games.

The one great thing Rome achieved was a lasting peace throughout their land, the 'PAX ROMANA.' Likewise, the U.S. has ensured general peace on the globe.

China, for example, doesn't take Southeast Asia even though they could. And Europe hasn't fought a real war since WWII (Balkan conflict doesn't qualify, in my opinion).

The U.S. defined the modern world. And I'm pretty sure it will be remembered for this. As humans always view everything positively in retrospect.

[J. Magnum]

The U.S. defined the modern world. And I'm pretty sure it will be remembered for this. As humans always view everything positively in retrospect.[/QUOTE]

Good call.

What worries me is, where the U.S.(as stated by someone earlier on in the thread) built their empire on the idea of freedom and liberation for all men, the newly awakening empire of China doesn't seem to have the same charming appeal...:wink:

Growing up over here, the message I got as a kid from the U.S. was "bigger, faster, stronger", and you always seemed to do it with a smile. Of course, things have gotten a tad out of hand in the 20 years since then, and if I had a dollar for everytime I heard the phrase "Only in America"...:wink: but I guess that's just the way it's turned out. As said above, in retrospect, at least in most parts of the world, I am of the belief that most of what will be remembered will be done so in a positive light.:humpin:

[lycanox]

Claiming the US defined the western world is a bit much. Europe pretty much has completely different views on politics and ideological issues. Not to mention culture.

[J. Magnum]

One word.

FONZIE. :humpin:

[iolo]

The one great thing Rome achieved was a lasting peace throughout their land, the 'PAX ROMANA.' Likewise, the U.S. has ensured general peace on the globe.



I think that would be very difficult to back. What lasting peace, where, has the US achieved? Unlike Rome it has never faced the implications of what it does, trying to pretend its Empire is just (enforced) 'democracy'. And by 410 A.D., by the way, the British were so pissed off with Rome they chucked out the imperial authorities, rightly or wrongly. Imperialism grows weaker and weaker as time goes on. Worth remembering.

[lycanox]

Last time I checked, the romans were only peaceful because the Germans wiped out their army.

[Beatnik Bob]

Claiming the US defined the western world is a bit much. Europe pretty much has completely different views on politics and ideological issues. Not to mention culture.
I said modern world, not "western" world.


Unlike Rome it has never faced the implications of what it does,
So I suppose the economic troubles are just... a farce?

Every empire faces the implications for what it does. Otherwise they wouldn't fall. Unless you believe that the States have never or will never "fall?"

[UVsaturated]

I think in 1,000 years they won't be focused on the minutiae, it will read more like this;

The United States was best remembered for giving birth to the Internet, the first global communications system allowing people all over the word instant interpersonal communication. It was there that people realized that we are one race, one people, one community, one species, sharing one planet with finite resources.

In the 21st century the world was in chaos. Economic crisis and global instability brought the world to the brink of destruction. Using the power of the Internet, the population banded together and used their collective power to outlaw war and forced governments to dismantle their weapons and eliminate their armies.

From that point in history mankind began to work collectively to solve the problems of the era. The monies and equipment formerly dedicated to military might were redirected to the production of food and shelter for the entire population. The new spirit of cooperation amongst the world’s population brought technological, medical, and social advances so quickly that poverty, hunger, and disease were eliminated in less than one generation.

Thus began the age of enlightenment, prosperity and peace we have enjoyed for the last 900 years.

Right on man. We are on the verge of this. However, before all this there will be a sign in the sky of the Christ return, and the nations will still try to do it their way. Then the anti Christ will rise, the man Ron Paul.

[Bob]

In 1000 years the only trace left of the USA will be etched in stone.

[Confuzion]

In 1000 years, the USA will probably be remembered for the first manned moon landing, internet and the two only uses of nukes against civilian targets.

Most empires are remembered by what they achieved, not the wars they fought.

[Beatnik Bob]

1000 years really is not that long of a time.

[Lillith]

1000 years really is not that long of a time.

True. But still long enough to be forgotten, or barely rememberd by the new nations and societies that will replace us. We will be of the same significance as we study those of 1000 ago. Archiac has beens. Marginal suceesses comparitavely speaking. We think, were so great! lol

People will be concerned, first and foremost about themselves, their plights and problems...and daily living - just a we are

[Beatnik Bob]

True. But still long enough to be forgotten, or barely rememberd by the new nations and societies that will replace us. We will be of the same significance as we study those of 1000 ago. Archiac has beens. Marginal suceesses comparitavely speaking. We think, were so great! lol

People will be concerned, first and foremost about themselves, their plights and problems...and daily living - just a we are
Well, I see it this way...

1000CE really wasn't that long ago, and we know a great deal about the empires of that time. And today, we keep records that are much more thorough. Almost anything that ever happens on a day-to-day basis is preserved. Our records for the U.S. are hugely extensive. And whether people like it or not, empires are modeled after each other. Rome wasn't forgotten, and the U.S. system was modeled after, and is a perfection of, Rome. Likewise, there will undoubtedly be future political modelings/perfections of the U.S.
Already, the E.U. seeks to model itself after the U.S. The main difference is they lack a strong federal presence in Brussels.

[Moishe3rd]

Roads.
Communications.
(Inventions?)

Entertainment Culture.

Idealism.
The reformatting of Christian ideology.
The resurgence of Jews.

These will be the main focus of how the US will be remembered in 1,000 years in terms of material accomplishments or philosophical legacies.