What truly would founders think of modern America?

[HorrorReporter]

America's founders wanted journalists to keep a constant check on government--and times in the 1700s were a hell of a lot meaner and more cruel than today's reporters. If Ben Franklin was alive today, however, something tells me he would be a blogger and love it. And something makes me think even more that the founders would want the bloggers to watch the reporters as the reporters 'watch' the officials..

The founders may not have a Facebook.. But I think, again, a lady-loving Ben Franklin would have a Myspace, pimped out with sparkles and glitter. Maybe.

I think all of them would be very surprised that African Americans and women can vote and have freedom.

What state do you think they'd live in? I say New York City for Ben Franklin, a farm for George Washington, and maybe Vegas for Thomas Jefferson?

[James Random]

The same thing the Bauhaus would think of it: Horrific.

[Sirius]

I think they would be happy that we are still evolving as a country.

[Goldmoon]

I would think that they would say, everything is going according to plan.

[Cartesiantheater]

I think many of them would be both surprised and upset that we had a black president.

I do think they would be glad about our scientific progress as a nation, and, after the initial shock to their system, they would appreciate how we took their progressive ideas and expanded them.

Some of them would be upset at the power of the military on one hand, but thankful that the nation could protect itself so well on the other.

Some would be upset at blurring of power from the individual states to one collective whole.

Most of them would be happy about how we have maintained the three branches of power, and certainly they would be glad about how we have amended the constitution as we as a people saw fit, as they intended.



Basically, I think it'd be a mixed affair. They love and hate some, like some, and would be indifferent to some.

[Freddy]

Jefferson would be upset with industrialization and the loss of family farms.

Washington would be pleased with our large standing army.

Dr. Franklin would love Las Vegas and other fun spots that cater to his liberal ways..

Madison would likely be pleased that the USA is still together, but like Jefferson he would think that the federal government has grown to large.

John Adams would probably be happy thet the Alien Enemies Act 1798 was still on the books and being used to deport criminal illegal aliens.

Hamilton would be pleased with the US business, this present crisis excepted. The massive federal debt would make even him cringe.

[Nasik]

And good ol' Abe Lincoln would be horrified, but maybe not surprised:



"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

[Cartesiantheater]

And good ol' Abe Lincoln would be horrified, but maybe not surprised:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)



Hmmm... I didn't know that the Republican hero ever made such a quote. This is striking. And will go into my anti "ENRON" rhetoric box.

[Raptor Witness]

They would see Satan's fingerprints all over it, and marvel why God has not destroyed it already.

Franklin would be the rare exception, I expect, having cultivated enough of his own flaws to imagine mercy ... for the elect's sake.

[Traveler]

The foundation the country was built on is on its way out , I say that with a great deal of sadness. The power that it has at its disposal will be in the hands of its trators. I say that with a great deal of fear.

[James Random]

Interesting to note that none of you Americans seem to even know what the Bauhaus is :P

[Freddy]

Hmmm... I didn't know that the Republican hero ever made such a quote. This is striking. And will go into my anti "ENRON" rhetoric box.
This site says the quote is bogus.

"The quote was attributed to Lincoln as early as 1896 Purportedly in a letter to Colonel William F. Elkins (21 November 1864) after the passage of the National Bank Act (3 June 1864), these remarks were attributed to Lincoln as early as 1896 but were denounced as a "bold, unblushing forgery" by John Nicolay, Lincoln's private secretary and biographer.[4] They are further declared to be bogus by Merrill D. Peterson in his book Lincoln in American Memory (1994)[2] and by Thomas J. DiLorenzo at lewrockwell.com. [3]"


http://www.de-fact-o.com/fact_read.php?id=110

[Traveler]

Of course they will say they were bogus. Lincon is no longer here to say otherwise.

The fact is that those words are an embarrisment so they have to go. After all the big boys want to be seen and held up as the good boys.

[Nasik]

This site says the quote is bogus.

"The quote was attributed to Lincoln as early as 1896 Purportedly in a letter to Colonel William F. Elkins (21 November 1864) after the passage of the National Bank Act (3 June 1864), these remarks were attributed to Lincoln as early as 1896 but were denounced as a "bold, unblushing forgery" by John Nicolay, Lincoln's private secretary and biographer.[4] They are further declared to be bogus by Merrill D. Peterson in his book Lincoln in American Memory (1994)[2] and by Thomas J. DiLorenzo at lewrockwell.com. [3]"

Interesting. From the link offered at the website you provided, it shows that Lincoln, in fact, made similar such statements:



final Lincoln tidbit, although it pertains to one very specific case:

"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."
speech to Illinois legislature, Jan. 1837.
See Vol. 1, p. 24 of Lincoln's Complete Works,
ed. by Nicolay and Hay, 1905)


Here is a cross-reference (http://www.humanitiesweb.org/human.php?s=h&p=c&a=p&ID=25840)to that speech.

One of the source materials offered at the website (an apparent PDF of a 1896 NY Times Article claims he never said the first quote or anything like it ever - we know that's not exactly true)

As for Nicolay, I wonder how accurate his claims are - he aspired to be the only official biographer of Lincoln - and seems, when cross-referencing the other so called debunkers, seems to be the main source of their information:


But another presidential confident, Alexander McClure was less kind, later arguing that Nicolay "was a good mechanical routine clerk" whose "removal was earnestly pressed upon Lincoln on more than one occasion because of his want of tact and fitness for his trust, and only the proverbial kindness of Lincoln saved him from dismissal."6 By the time McClure wrote that evaluation, he and Nicolay were engaged in a major dispute over their recollections of President Lincoln's role in removing Hannibal Hamlin from the 1864 ticket.


I find it interesting that the book "The Real Lincoln" is written by economist not a history professor.

Maybe Nicolay can't help but be bitter that he missed some crucial texts in what was supposed to be his seminal work - who can say, maybe he's right?


Of course they will say they were bogus. Lincon is no longer here to say otherwise.

The fact is that those words are an embarrisment so they have to go. After all the big boys want to be seen and held up as the good boys.

Agreed. It is difficult, at this juncture, Nicolay seems to be the main disseminator of the fact that this quote was not attributed to Lincoln. On the face of it, we have confirmed speeches where he makes similar statements - it's not accurate to say, "he'd never say anything like that"

[phedrereine]

Agreed. It is difficult, at this juncture, Nicolay seems to be the main disseminator of the fact that this quote was not attributed to Lincoln. On the face of it, we have confirmed speeches where he makes similar statements - it's not accurate to say, "he'd never say anything like that"

I agree, too.. And even if he didn't say it, I can't imagine him being completely happy with just how powerful corporations have become. I think most of the founding fathers would be a bit uneasy, in fact...

I really wonder what they would think of the "American Dream" and how it has helped lead to the current state of the economy. We have stayed faithful to capitalism - too faithful, I would say - and it has affected how we see the world and given so many of us this sense of entitlement. I think they would be proud of how far we've progressed in some ways and what we've accomplished, but they might see us as jaded and complacent..



Interesting to note that none of you Americans seem to even know what the Bauhaus is :P

Or no one particularly agrees with you, or has anything to add. :vbroll:

God, you're ridiculous.

[James Random]

Well phed. That just goes to show your complete ignorance toward your own country's history doesn't it. Who is the more ridiculous? The brit that knows more about your country's history than you do? Or the person who knows very little about the History of Modern America and actually lives in it?

Stop being a brown noser. It does not suit you.

[phedrereine]

Well phed. That just goes to show your complete ignorance toward your own country's history doesn't it. Who is the more ridiculous? The brit that knows more about your country's history than you do? Or the person who knows very little about the History of Modern America and actually lives in it?

Stop being a brown noser. It does not suit you.

LOL. And now you make up random insults that have nothing to do with anything and make no sense. All because you get your feelings hurt because no one responds to your particular comment. Grow up.

[James Random]

Thanks for confirming what I thought.

[Skygirl]

Interesting to note that none of you Americans seem to even know what the Bauhaus is :P

The only Bauhaus I know of is the school of design in Germany. I'm particularly fond of anything produced there aside from their pottery.

[James Random]

The only Bauhaus I know of is the school of design in Germany. I'm particularly fond of anything produced there aside from their pottery.

The very same. :)

[Skygirl]

The very same. :)

OH NOS! I meant I am NOT particularly fond of anything produced there aside from their pottery.

I like their idea of incorporating all artforms into one large artform.

[olddragon]

What does artistic design have to do with the founding fathers, or have I missed something completely?
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/whistle-1.gif

[Skygirl]

What does artistic design have to do with the founding fathers, or have I missed something completely?
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/whistle-1.gif

OD, It has EVERYTHING to do with it :ohmy:

[olddragon]

OD, It has EVERYTHING to do with it :ohmy:

If that's the case, they would be very upset at the shear size and power, of the central government.
Something they faught hard to limit, by holding out most power, for the states.

It's intended purpose, does suite it's present form.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/hoppingmad.gif

[James Random]

If that's the case, they would be very upset at the shear size and power, of the central government.

It's intended purpose, does suite it's present form.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/hoppingmad.gif

The Bauhaus ran away from a government much like that that runs the US today for starters.

But wherever you go in the US in your daily life, particularly in large cities, I doubt you'll come across a piece of architecture or design (from the 50's onwards) a product, marketing, printing, advertising that hasn't, in some way, been inspired by the Bauhaus.

[Freddy]

I find it interesting that the book "The Real Lincoln" is written by economist not a history professor.
That would be Thomas J. DiLorenzo which is sometimes written by his detractors as Di-Liar-enzo. His book was not well received by Lincoln scholars. See link below.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.736/article_detail.asp

[phedrereine]

Thanks for confirming what I thought.

Confirming what? That people may not agree with you or have anything to add? I fail to see how you can deduce that you know more about American history than I, or anyone else who has posted here, from that.


The Bauhaus ran away from a government much like that that runs the US today for starters.

And you think everyone will agree with you that the U.S. government is very much like the Nazi government? It is debatable.

[James Random]

For confirming your ignorance, Phed.


And the Bauhaus weren't escaping from Nazi's. They were escaping from Totalitarians. THe Nazi's came later. :)

[Nasik]

That would be Thomas J. DiLorenzo which is sometimes written by his detractors as Di-Liar-enzo. His book was not well received by Lincoln scholars. See link below.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.736/article_detail.asp

Great link Freddy thanks. You have a talent for providing interesting and germane links on a range of topics.

The link you offered was a good read. I think the authors showed enough omissions and errors to put the sum of DiLorenzo's work in question.

[Freddy]

Great link Freddy thanks. You have a talent for providing interesting and germane links on a range of topics.

The link you offered was a good read. I think the authors showed enough omissions and errors to put the sum of DiLorenzo's work in question.
You are welcome.

While Lincoln was not the saint that many believe him to have been, he certainly was not the devil that DiLorenzo made him out to be in his book.