Swine flu jab link to killer nerve disease - Study

[MetalMilitia]

Well, this one won't be moved ;)


A warning that the new swine flu jab is linked to a deadly nerve disease has been sent by the Government to senior neurologists in a confidential letter.

The letter from the Health Protection Agency, the official body that oversees public health, has been leaked to The Mail on Sunday, leading to demands to know why the information has not been given to the public before the vaccination of millions of people, including children, begins.

It tells the neurologists that they must be alert for an increase in a brain disorder called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), which could be triggered by the vaccine.

GBS attacks the lining of the nerves, causing paralysis and inability to breathe, and can be fatal.

The letter, sent to about 600 neurologists on July 29, is the first sign that there is concern at the highest levels that the vaccine itself could cause serious complications.

It refers to the use of a similar swine flu vaccine in the United States in 1976 when:

* More people died from the vaccination than from swine flu.
* 500 cases of GBS were detected.
* The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times.
* The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with GBS became clear.
* The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected.

Concerns have already been raised that the new vaccine has not been sufficiently tested and that the effects, especially on children, are unknown.

It is being developed by pharmaceutical companies and will be given to about 13million people during the first wave of immunisation, expected to start in October.

Top priority will be given to everyone aged six months to 65 with an underlying health problem, pregnant women and health professionals.

The British Neurological Surveillance Unit (BNSU), part of the British Association of Neurologists, has been asked to monitor closely any cases of GBS as the vaccine is rolled out.

One senior neurologist said last night: ‘I would not have the swine
flu jab because of the GBS risk.’

There are concerns that there could be a repeat of what became known as the ‘1976 debacle’ in the US, where a swine flu vaccine killed 25 people – more than the virus itself.

A mass vaccination was given the go-ahead by President Gerald Ford because scientists believed that the swine flu strain was similar to the one responsible for the 1918-19 pandemic, which killed half a million Americans and 20million people worldwide.

Swine flu vaccines being prepared

The swine flu vaccine being offered to children has not been tested on infants

Within days, symptoms of GBS were reported among those who had been immunised and 25 people died from respiratory failure after severe paralysis. One in 80,000 people came down with the condition. In contrast, just one person died of swine flu.

More than 40million Americans had received the vaccine by the time the programme was stopped after ten weeks. The US Government paid out millions of dollars in compensation to those affected.

The swine flu virus in the new vaccine is a slightly different strain from the 1976 virus, but the possibility of an increased incidence of GBS remains a concern.

Shadow health spokesman Mike Penning said last night: ‘The last thing we want is secret letters handed around experts within the NHS. We need a vaccine but we also need to know about potential risks.

‘Our job is to make sure that the public knows what’s going on. Why
is the Government not being open about this? It’s also very worrying if GPs, who will be administering the vaccine, aren’t being warned.’

Two letters were posted together to neurologists advising them of the concerns. The first, dated July 29, was written by Professor Elizabeth Miller, head of the HPA’s Immunisation Department.

It says: ‘The vaccines used to combat an expected swine influenza pandemic in 1976 were shown to be associated with GBS and were withdrawn from use.

‘GBS has been identified as a condition needing enhanced surveillance when the swine flu vaccines are rolled out.

‘Reporting every case of GBS irrespective of vaccination or disease history is essential for conducting robust epidemiological analyses capable of identifying whether there is an increased risk of GBS in defined time periods after vaccination, or after influenza itself, compared with the background risk.’

The second letter, dated July 27, is from the Association of British Neurologists and is written by Dr Rustam Al-Shahi Salman, chair of its surveillance unit, and Professor Patrick Chinnery, chair of its clinical research committee.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206807/Swine-flu-jab-link-killer-nerve-disease-Leaked-letter-reveals-concern-neurologists-25-deaths-America.html#ixzz0OIrMU3PO

[calliope]

It refers to the use of a similar swine flu vaccine in the United States in 1976 when:

* More people died from the vaccination than from swine flu.
* 500 cases of GBS were detected.
* The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times.
* The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with GBS became clear.
* The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected.

Concerns have already been raised that the new vaccine has not been sufficiently tested and that the effects, especially on children, are unknown.

But the herds of cattle don't object. Why should we?

(Oh, and.... :admin:rocks!!)

[HorrorReporter]

real question: How many in here are thinking about getting it? My mother in law is.. she is about 77 and regularly gets a flu shot..

[James Random]

I'm most certainly not.

[lycanox]

Actually the estimated chance of developing Guillain-Barre Syndrome is a lot smaller than actually dying of the flue.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/meningococcal/GBS/en/index.html

So it would still be silly to avoid the vaccine due to this.

[James Random]

Actually the estimated chance of developing Guillain-Barre Syndrome is a lot smaller than actually dying of the flue.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/meningococcal/GBS/en/index.html

So it would still be silly to avoid the vaccine due to this.


Well i'll tell you what. You take it and be happy. If you drop down dead we'll know to keep away from it, wont we? :D

[JenaS62]

real question: How many in here are thinking about getting it? My mother in law is.. she is about 77 and regularly gets a flu shot..


I'm not getting it and will do all possible to ensure that my kids don't get it either. I've never gotten a flu shot in my life and I've only had the flu once about 12 years ago. I lived.

[uki]

it seems the evidence is mounting that this "swine flu" and the vaccination measures being set into place are not in our best interests... why anyone would want to get stuck with this bullshit is beyond me, well... not really...


Two cases of swine flu resistant to the drug Tamiflu were diagnosed over the weekend, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Saturday. Tamiflu and Relenza were the only two medications that had thusfar proven effective in treating the virus (also known as H1N1), which already proved resistant to other seasonal flu remedies.

Tamiflu had been particularly popular, as it is ingested orally. Relenza, which is inhaled, is therefore not recommended for patients with respiratory conditions. Both drugs work by disabling an enzyme the virus needs in order to grow. Many governments in the world, including Israel's, have stockpiled Tamiflu in large quantities since the swine-flu pandemic began.

Reports of Tamiflu-resistant strains of swine flu began in late June. In patients with weakened immune systems the virus might stay active for longer periods, acquiring resistance to Tamiflu and potentially spreading to others.

At the end of June, a representative of the Swiss pharmaceutical company Roche, which manufactures Tamiflu, said a Danish patient infected with a strain of the virus was not responding to the medicine. Earlier studies on Tamiflu indicated that 0.4 percent of adults and 4 percent of children afflicted with normal seasonal flu were likely not to respond to the drug.


read more... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107725.html

[Nu Kua]

Check out this 60 Minutes segment (http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_56521.shtml), from 1976, about this.

I tried to link directly to the vid but can't seem to, but it's easily viewed from the site.

As far as the Tamiflu story above, yeah, they knew before they sold their stockpiles to the all that this was not going to be effective against h1n1. In fact, i think it was 2006 or 07, Tamiflu was causing the company to lose stock value due to its ineffectiveness, especially when compared to another version of the flu shot.
So this flu scare has enabled Tamiflu to still make some more of their money back.

[lycanox]

Flue strains that are being immune to Tami flue treatment have become very common in the last years. And the Mexican flue is probably a descended of a virus that was close to developing this immunity. And is now developing the immunity itself once in a while.

But this is not something new as building up resistance versus medicines is simply what microorganisms do. And is thus not some kind of weird conspiracy to sell medicines.

[uki]

Flue strains that are being immune to Tami flue treatment have become very common in the last years. hmmmm... so one has to wonder why the press for a vaccination that won't be effective...


And the Mexican flue is probably a descended of a virus that was close to developing this immunity. such as a bio-genetically engineered version...


And is now developing the immunity itself once in a while.nature finds a way...


But this is not something new as building up resistance versus medicines is simply what microorganisms do.so why the rush to stick people with what will most likely do more harm than good??


And is thus not some kind of weird conspiracy to sell medicines.and thus another reason for you to stfu already. ::):

[lycanox]

hmmmm... so one has to wonder why the press for a vaccination that won't be effective...
Tamiflu is not the same as a flue vaccine.



such as a bio-genetically engineered version...
nature finds a way...
Mutations like these and pandemics are nothing more than the effects of Influenza and Humanity trying to survive on the same planet.

There is no reason to suggest that the virus is not natural.



so why the rush to stick people with what will most likely do more harm than good??
For each million people vaccinated. Only 2,5 will actually get serious sick due to GBS.
Which is a lot lower than what we currently see the virus doing.

So your claim is quite incorrect.

[uki]

Tamiflu is not the same as a flue vaccine. so you are suggesting that a regular flu shot might work differently?


Mutations like these and pandemics are nothing more than the effects of Influenza and Humanity trying to survive on the same planet. so by this reasoning, mankind should stop making any type of vaccination so that there would be a natural balance between mankind and nature??


There is no reason to suggest that the virus is not natural.of course it is natural, the question is wether or not was manipulated to skip a few generations.


For each million people vaccinated. Only 2,5 will actually get serious sick due to GBS. and are there any OTHER side-effects to be given consideration?


Which is a lot lower than what we currently see the virus doing. what we do see are more people advertly effected by the vaccination, rather than the swine flu itself.


So your claim is quite incorrect.ah, but what about that little voice of fucking opposition? for every action, there is an EQUAL and opposite reaction. deny that one fucktard. ::p:

[calliope]

For each million people vaccinated. Only 2,5 will actually get serious sick due to GBS.
Which is a lot lower than what we currently see the virus doing.

So your claim is quite incorrect.

But it isn't just GBS. There is much much more in the arena of negative effects from this vaccine, as well as others.


If you watch television, you may have caught an ad about lawsuits pertaining to mesothelioma. It is said mesothelioma is a result of asbestos exposure, but research reveals that 50% of the current mesotheliomas being treated no longer occurs due to asbestos but rather the SV-40 virus contained in the polio vaccination. In addition, according to researchers from the Institute of Histology and General Embryology of the University of Ferrara, SV-40 has turned up in a variety other tumors. By the end of 1996, dozens of scientists reported finding SV40 in a variety of bone cancers and a wide range of brain cancers, which had risen 30 percent over the previous 20 years.

The SV-40 virus is now being detected in tumors removed from people never inoculated with the contaminated vaccine, leading some to conclude that those infected by the vaccine might be spreading SV40.

The first swine flu vaccine, polio vaccines, smallpox vaccine, anthrax vaccine, hepatitis B vaccine, and most recently Lyme disease vaccine that crippled approximately 750,000 people within months of its release and prior to its recall by the FDA contain “vaccine-injury certainty,” explains Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz.

Horowitz continues:

Most people fail to realize all vaccines carry a list of ingredients that typically increase human disease and death (i.e., morbidity and mortality). These include toxic elements and chemicals such as mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and formalin (used to preserve corpses), MSG, foreign genetic material, and risky proteins from various species of bacteria, viruses, and animals that have been scientifically associated with triggering autoimmune disorders and certain cancers. A growing body of scientific evidence strongly suggests vaccines are largely responsible for increasing cases of autism and other learning disabilities, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, Lupus, MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, asthma, hay fever, allergies, chronic draining ear infections, type 1 autoimmune diabetes, and many, many more pandemics. These chronic ailments are said to require long-term medical care for the patients’ management causing toxic side effects resulting in America’s leading killer — iatrogenic disease. That is, vaccines and other pharmaceutical industry inventions are literally killing or disabling millions with little effort on the part of government officials and their drug industry cohorts to arrest this scourge.

http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/37660

Ok, all that said, it's fine to dispute this with official propaganda statistics, but really, let's examine who actually benefits on each side of the debate.

Is it the multi-billion $$ pharmaceutical companies, the medical-industrial complex, that effectively killed homeopathic universities and practices, due to competition from a much less invasive and very inexpensive form of healing? Governments, who can utilize such fabricated "pandemics" to institute greater forced control and compliance from a growing population of educated and independent citizens?


On the other side of the debate -- who benefits, and how? Do doctors who risk their livelihoods and professional standing benefit in any monetary way, or otherwise, from dissemenating information about the harms and dangers of vaccines? Perhaps modest income from a book or website, but how much more would they accumulate by toeing the party line the AMA demands with fascist-like rule? The AMA has effectively shut down many forms of alternative medicine, including homeopathy, chiropractic, naturopathy, et al -- therapies that prove extremely successful, with drastically decreased profit, and much fewer harmful effects than allopathic medicine, for precisely this reason -- their benefits far surpass those of allopathy, and keep people much healthier (but perhaps not so compliant, eh?)

I mean, what in the world is the benefit to people who try to expose the truth? Increased personal danger from corporations/governments with enormous stakes in these measures? Ridicule and harassment from the establishment?

The glaring discrepancies in the gains and motives of each side of this debate are very apparent, and should be a wake-up call to everyone who cares about his/her society, family, health and freedom.

[lycanox]

so you are suggesting that a regular flu shot might work differently?
Tamiflue is an antiviral given to combat an already ongoing flue infection.
Flue vaccinations prevent flue infections.


so by this reasoning, mankind should stop making any type of vaccination so that there would be a natural balance between mankind and nature??
of course it is natural, the question is wether or not was manipulated to skip a few generations.
Actually the status quo is a virus infection that causes no symptoms.
As the virus itself is not really interested in getting you sick. As it would mean that your body start defending itself. Or that if you die. It will lose it host.

Problem is however that once in a while, the virus mutates in a more dangerous form that destroys this balance. Resulting in a pandemic and epidemics.


and are there any OTHER side-effects to be given consideration?
None that are of any mayor concern.


what we do see are more people advertly effected by the vaccination, rather than the swine flu itself.

\ah, but what about that little voice of fucking opposition? for every action, there is an EQUAL and opposite reaction. deny that one fucktard. ::p:
Evidence please. As the data from the WHO tells another story.

[Sirius]

Tamiflue is an antiviral given to combat an already ongoing flue infection.
Flue vaccinations prevent flue infections.


Thats not exactly true, it is not 100% effective.

[uki]

None that are of any mayor concern.you mean "major" concern... anyways... no concern of whom?? the people vaccinated or those who are legally exempt from liablity?

[calliope]

and are there any OTHER side-effects to be given consideration?

None that are of any mayor concern.

Of major concern: yes there are. See the other posts in this thread.

Also, I'd like to state that for all my disagreement with vaccines, the AMA and allopathic medicine, in general, mostly due to their fascist control over all healing methods, I do utterly believe that such elements do have a very important place in the world.

I am very grateful for numerous instances in my life that involved modern, mainstream medicine. I do not criticize all aspects of mainstream medical practices, practitioners and researchers in the least.

They serve a very crucial necessity in society. I love that we have biologists such as Lycanox, keeping us safe from dangers we don't even know exist. Technology does so much toward making life comfortable and bearable enough that we are able -- all of humanity, as opposed to a select privileged few -- to progress in areas such as spirituality, knowledge and myriad others.

But there has to be a balance, in allowing the good effects to outweigh the negative, and allowing differing approaches to exist, in harmony, and alongside such technological advances as allopathic medicine. And not allow the powerful aspects of such technology to overrun and control our lives, rather than to enhance them.

[lycanox]

But it isn't just GBS. There is much much more in the arena of negative effects from this vaccine, as well as others.

Ok, all that said, it's fine to dispute this with official propaganda statistics, but really, let's examine who actually benefits on each side of the debate.
And still the decease has already proved a lot more dangerous than the entire US vaccination program combined.



Is it the multi-billion $$ pharmaceutical companies, the medical-industrial complex, that effectively killed homeopathic universities and practices, due to competition from a much less invasive and very inexpensive form of healing? Governments, who can utilize such fabricated "pandemics" to institute greater forced control and compliance from a growing population of educated and independent citizens?


On the other side of the debate -- who benefits, and how? Do doctors who risk their livelihoods and professional standing benefit in any monetary way, or otherwise, from dissemenating information about the harms and dangers of vaccines? Perhaps modest income from a book or website, but how much more would they accumulate by toeing the party line the AMA demands with fascist-like rule? The AMA has effectively shut down many forms of alternative medicine, including homeopathy, chiropractic, naturopathy, et al -- therapies that prove extremely successful, with drastically decreased profit, and much fewer harmful effects than allopathic medicine, for precisely this reason -- their benefits far surpass those of allopathy, and keep people much healthier (but perhaps not so compliant, eh?)

I mean, what in the world is the benefit to people who try to expose the truth? Increased personal danger from corporations/governments with enormous stakes in these measures? Ridicule and harassment from the establishment?
There is always someone making a profit out of something. That is how capitalism works.

You might as well claim that Katrina was caused by the companies that build water pumps and such. Or that the people that suffered from the tsunami in Indonesia should reject aid because some of the companies that supply those made a nice profit from it.




The glaring discrepancies in the gains and motives of each side of this debate or very apparent, and should be a wake-up call to everyone who cares about his/her society, family, health and freedom.

On the other side of the debate is a growing amount of people that have completely lost touch with reality.

That believe that taking a vaccination always equate to getting sick. Despite the extremely low chance of that actually happening and the amount of people that get saved from a horrible decease each year thanks to the vaccine.

People that continually continue making false claims like the one about autism. Despite it being disproved countless of time and lacking any real scientific basis.

People that endanger their children by allowing them to remain vulnerable for dangerous deceases. Because they cant get over the fact that the companies are making money out of it or are believing some kind of conspiracy theory.

You see, it is not pro vaccination side that is having a shady agenda.
But the people from the anti vaccination side that are always trying to scare people away from a perfect normal medical procedure.

Unless you can prove that the vaccine is actually more dangerous than the flue virus itself. You simply have no point here.

[calliope]

And still the decease has already proved a lot more dangerous than the entire US vaccination program combined.

Actually, it hasn't.



There is always someone making a profit out of something. That is how capitalism works.

And that is why we have checks and balances, and good regulatory bodies in place, to protect consumers. Fascist rule for one element is quite harmful, except to those who benefit.


You might as well claim that Katrina was caused by the companies that build water pumps and such. Or that the people that suffered from the tsunami in Indonesia should reject aid because some of the companies that supply those made a nice profit from it.

Nope, apples and oranges. The injured parties benefitted after the fact. And actually, I can, unequivocally, claim that contractors and the military-industrial complex did and do contribute to the death and misery of millions of war victims for the express purpose of profit and control.


On the other side of the debate is a growing amount of people that have completely lost touch with reality.

According to those who have a vested interest in creating a reality that suits their greedy objectives.


That believe that taking a vaccination always equate to getting sick. Despite the extremely low chance of that actually happening and the amount of people that get saved from a horrible decease each year thanks to the vaccine.

This is questionable, with a lot of research that proves otherwise.


People that continually continue making false claims like the one about autism. Despite it being disproved countless of time and lacking any real scientific basis.

People that endanger their children by allowing them to remain vulnerable for dangerous deceases. Because they cant get over the fact that the companies are making money out of it or are believing some kind of conspiracy theory.

People don't mind successful companies. But when profits and societal control endanger their children, which has proved the case again and again, they mind very much. Again, the people pointing out these dangers have absolutely nothing to gain, except personal endagerment and harassment.


You see, it is not pro vaccination side that is having a shady agenda.

Actually, they do.


But the people from the anti vaccination side that are always trying to scare people away from a perfect normal medical procedure.

Scare away, for what reason? There is no other reason, except to save humanity from power-hungry interests that do not have the best interests of humanity in mind.



Unless you can prove that the vaccine is actually more dangerous than the flue virus itself. You simply have no point here.

There is adequate evidence in this thread already, or else intelligent people would not be interested in posting here. And there is just much a point for my being here as there is for you.

[uki]

And still the decease has already proved a lot more dangerous than the entire US vaccination program combined. you mean disease?? which one is more deadly than the vaccination program?


There is always someone making a profit out of something. That is how capitalism works. so do away with the need for profit...


You might as well claim that Katrina was caused by the companies that build water pumps and such. Or that the people that suffered from the tsunami in Indonesia should reject aid because some of the companies that supply those made a nice profit from it. actually you are not too far from the truth here...


On the other side of the debate is a growing amount of people that have completely lost touch with reality. reality as defined by who?? (gotta love the synchronicity here)


That believe that taking a vaccination always equate to getting sick.so making yourself sick with a vaccination is better than getting sick naturally? why make yourself sick to begin with?


Despite the extremely low chance of that actually happening and the amount of people that get saved from a horrible decease each year thanks to the vaccine. how do you know it was the vaccination that protected them from the percieved disease that they might get?


People that continually continue making false claims like the one about autism. Despite it being disproved countless of time and lacking any real scientific basis. which real scientific basis disproved the vaccination-autism link?


People that endanger their children by allowing them to remain vulnerable for dangerous deceases. and does this make them a criminal for simply allowing nature to take its course?


Because they cant get over the fact that the companies are making money out of it or are believing some kind of conspiracy theory.but companies make money on people being sick... it's no conspiracy theory... if people weren't getting sick, there would be no money to be made.


You see, it is not pro vaccination side that is having a shady agenda.
But the people from the anti vaccination side that are always trying to scare people away from a perfect normal medical procedure. but didn't you say that drug resistant viruses are the result of man intereferring with nature? maybe there wouldn't bbe such a global population epidemic if people would stop meddling in the affairs of nature... remember... nature finds a way and if there are too many retards on the planet, nature will find a way to kill them all off eventually - it's retarded to meddle with nature.


Unless you can prove that the vaccine is actually more dangerous than the flue virus itself. You simply have no point here.unless you can prove that vaccination is relatively harmless, i have made my point already. :angel:

[lycanox]

It is very simple.

All your side has to do is provide concrete evidence that this years flue vaccine is going to kill or hurts more people than the virus itself. Despite this not being the case even with seasonal flue.

Untill that point. This is in my eyes nothing more than just another conspiracy theory.

[uki]

It is very simple. of course this is most certainly why you make it so difficult...


All your side has to do is provide concrete evidence that this years flue vaccine is going to kill or hurts more people than the virus itself. Despite this not being the case even with seasonal flue. whoa... ummmmmmmmm... so you mean this years swine flu is just gonna be in the seasonal flu shot? are people getting vaccinated for swine flu every year?


Untill that point. This is in my eyes nothing more than just another conspiracy theory.then move the thread to conspiracy theories. :2fu:

[MetalMilitia]

Well it's killing roughly 1 / 112...

I know it targets people like me (age group), but I think I could tell it to piss off and beat it the fair and square way. The only season I ever got influenza was the year I got the shot.... earlier in the summer. I'm not crying OMG CONSPIRACY - I just trust that natural immunities some times need to simply happen. Putting all the shit in ya weakens it all.

I'm not agreeing 100% with either side, but if the injections WERE to be made mandatory (not saying they will be) - I would never let anyone give me something I don't want. I think that's where most of the hostility comes from. The idea that it could be imposed or applied via force to people - I think that's where everyone differs.

[MetalMilitia]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/16/swine-flu-tamiflu-helpline-paracetamol

The government rejected advice from its expert advisers on swine flu, who said there was no need for the widespread use of Tamiflu and suggested that the public should simply be told to take paracetamol.

An independent panel set up by the Department of Health warned ministers that plans to make the stockpiled drug widely available could do more harm than good, by helping the flu virus to develop resistance to the drug.

But ministers pressed ahead with a policy of mass prescription, fearing the public would not tolerate being told that the millions of doses of Tamiflu held by the state could not be used during a pandemic, one of the committee members has told the Guardian.

"It was felt ... it would simply be unacceptable to the UK population to tell them we had a huge stockpile of drugs but they were not going to be made available," Professor Robert Dingwall, a member of the Committee on Ethical Aspects of Pandemic Influenza, said.

[Abyssal_Worm]

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFlu/idUSTRE56T63E20090730

"The concerns:

*Will a vaccine against a swine-like virus cause more adverse reactions than a seasonal flu vaccine?

*Will special additives called adjuvants cause reactions?

*Will the vaccines contain thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative that critics say might cause problems?

*Is it dangerous to vaccinate against both seasonal flu and the new H1N1 flu at the same time?"


Those are some of the questions that were asked at this conference from late July. The last question is one I find interesting. It would be a hell of a note for someone to get both vaccines and have an adverse reaction that led to a permanent disability or worse.

Though I did find this promising...
"More recently, fears center on thimerosal, taken out of most vaccines after activists claimed it could cause autism -- a link discredited by many scientific studies but one that some vocal activists say is still valid.

Instead of fighting the perception, Schuchat said the CDC will roll with it. "There will be thimerosal-free formulations available for those people who are interested in that sort of preparation," she said."


Is all of concern overrated?
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFlu/idUSTRE57A5ZY20090811

"The team analyzed 14 global or regional flu pandemics during the past 500 years and found past pandemics patterns vary widely. They said two other flu pandemics in the 20th century -- in 1957 and 1968 -- made just a single, seasonal appearance, and generally did not become significantly more serious in the early years of their circulation.

"Whatever happened in 1918 and 1919 for whatever reason was pretty clearly a one-off event. It's the only time in the 500 years that that pattern occurred," Morens said"

Better safe than sorry, so gearing up a vaccine does sound rational...so long as it is safe. Guess we'll find out in the next few weeks as the GSKs and such will begin reporting the data they are collecting. Hopefully this is one of those viruses that just doesn't mutate into something real nasty...

[Nu Kua]

It is very simple.

All your side has to do is provide concrete evidence that this years flue vaccine is going to kill or hurts more people than the virus itself. Despite this not being the case even with seasonal flue.

Untill that point. This is in my eyes nothing more than just another conspiracy theory.

I'd like to see concrete evidence that the swine flu hype is going to kill or hurt more people than Anything Else in the History of disease- as it is so often promoted. Less than 1,000 people have been proven to have actually died from this so far. I already know 4 people who tested positive for the virus and who lived through it, just like one lives through most flu's.
We can't provide concrete evidence of what is going to happen in the future- that is subjective thinking. We can, though, look at the past history of this sort of thing, as well as compare the media and political techniques of this push to other types of events.

Again, what bothers me is the whole Shock Doctrine thing being played out here. They are rushing to get this vaccine that is to save us from the virus when there is no damning evidence that it is a horrid thing- just like there was a rush to bomb the guts out of Iraq, to 'save us' from weapons of mass destruction that were rumored to be there, a rumor pumped up by false evidence manufactured by war mongers.

[lycanox]

I'd like to see concrete evidence that the swine flu hype is going to kill or hurt more people than Anything Else in the History of disease-

as it is so often promoted. Less than 1,000 people have been proven to have actually died from this so far. I already know 4 people who tested positive for the virus and who lived through it, just like one lives through most flu's.
We can't provide concrete evidence of what is going to happen in the future- that is subjective thinking. We can, though, look at the past history of this sort of thing, as well as compare the media and political techniques of this push to other types of events.

Again, what bothers me is the whole Shock Doctrine thing being played out here. They are rushing to get this vaccine that is to save us from the virus when there is no damning evidence that it is a horrid thing- just like there was a rush to bomb the guts out of Iraq, to 'save us' from weapons of mass destruction that were rumored to be there, a rumor pumped up by false evidence manufactured by war mongers.
Just compare the amount of people that die because of normal seasonal flue with the amount of people that suffer severe negative side effects due to the entire vaccination program. And it is easy to see that the risk of dying or getting seriously ill is higher if you dont take the vaccines.

Now what we are dealing here with is not normal seasonal flue. But a virus completely unknown to our immune system. Which makes it even more dangerous than normal seasonal flue. We know for a fact that the first wave is the least lethal one compared with the following waves. So this harmless appearance could change drastically in the following months.

The possible result. Just look up the Spanish flue for a worst case scenario.

[James Random]

So, lycanox, why is it my wife's family are telling us that Australia has all but stopped administering tamiflu because people seem to be getting ill after they've been given it?

And this:

Tamiflu turned my children into hallucinating, sobbing wrecks (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1206215)

Children should not be given tamiflu, Relenza - study (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25912853-401,00.html)

Report: Tamiflu may increase abnormal acts (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04/19/Report-Tamiflu-may-increase-abnormal-acts/UPI-37321240170426/)

Tamiflu: Harm Outweighs Benefits To Children (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Tamiflu-Report-Says-Children-Should-Not-Be-Treated-With-Anti-Viral-Drug/Article/200908215357628?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Conte nt_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15357628_Tamiflu_Report_Says_Children_ Should_Not_Be_Treated_With_Anti-Viral_Drug)

Keep using Tamiflu, top doctor urges parents, as he admits children may suffer nightmares and nausea (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203345)

We're hearing nothing but bad things from tamiflu and, for once, it's not just the papers scaremongering. It's experts coming forward it genuine concern and saying that paracetamol would be far better to take than tamiflu.

Experts lycanox. Something you are not.

[James Random]

oh and in a quiet corner of google i found this

Tamiflu ingredients price hike (http://www.silobreaker.com/tamiflu-ingredients-price-hike-5_2262303374378532864)

So. Soon as mass production started the prices hiked. Someone's just out to get $$$ out of this.

[lycanox]

However we are talking about the flue vaccination here.
Not about Tamiflu.

Which is a completely different medicine thus completely off topic to this debate.

[MetalMilitia]

Just compare the amount of people that die because of normal seasonal flue with the amount of people that suffer severe negative side effects due to the entire vaccination program. And it is easy to see that the risk of dying or getting seriously ill is higher if you dont take the vaccines.

Now what we are dealing here with is not normal seasonal flue. But a virus completely unknown to our immune system. Which makes it even more dangerous than normal seasonal flue. We know for a fact that the first wave is the least lethal one compared with the following waves. So this harmless appearance could change drastically in the following months.

The possible result. Just look up the Spanish flue for a worst case scenario.

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/Hearts.medical.mistakes.2.1122508.html

"There's a frightening prediction about what will happen to many Americans who seek medical care.

Thousands will end up dead because of errors and hospital infections, according the Hearst Corp.

But there are ways to protect yourself and your family.

CBS 2's Jim Williams reports.

When we go into the hospital we assume we are in good hands, getting treated by highly trained medical professionals.

And to be fair, the vast majority of us do get the care we need without problems caused by doctors and nurses

But the number is alarming. According to an investigation by the Hearst Corp., 200,000 Americans will die this year from preventable medical errors and hospital infections."

------------------------------------------------------

Great system we have ;)

That's 1/1750 dying from preventable stuff and outright mistakes. How about (at least the US) fixes shit we know we can fix first - then later on we can get pumped full of stuff that my immune system would likely squash in the first place.

[Tired Old Man]

Hey MM
I'm sure a lot of people like yourself in the UK will not take the shot even if mandatory.
So you don't take the shot but come down with the flu. And you need treatment.
Do you think you'll still get it ? Understand I'm basing this on stories I've heard in the news here.
I guess this would depend on how many people didn't take the shot and how bad it could get.
Can you still get the flu even if you take the shot? Just asking.

[MetalMilitia]

Hey MM
I'm sure a lot of people like yourself in the UK will not take the shot even if mandatory.
So you don't take the shot but come down with the flu. And you need treatment.
Do you think you'll still get it ? Understand I'm basing this on stories I've heard in the news here.
I guess this would depend on how many people didn't take the shot and how bad it could get.
Can you still get the flu even if you take the shot? Just asking.

I'm honestly not preaching one way or the other - but it's untested, the UK health panel listed all the above mentioned concerns, and no one cares. The side effects were dismissed by the government, even though the health panel says there COULD be long lasting nasty side effects.

I run a site about the end of the world, and disasters - you'd think if 1 person was gonna jump on the hype wagon - it would be me. I'm NOT in the UK (obviously) - but I don't buy into the hype.

Yes, it does hit my age group badly, yes it is lethal.... I'd still rather take my chances and sit home and recover. Basically what they're doing this year could be up to 3 shots, 1 seasonal and 2 for swine flu. The only summer I got the seasonal shot - I ended up with that version of influenza of that year. I'd rather just tough it out, call me crazy.

[medicvet]

NJ does not count I guess. NJ always gets a bad rap. I'm glad I escaped from there years ago. It's probably one of the only states that you need to pay to leave but can get in to for free.

Wait a minute...you have to pay to leave New Jersey?

[Sirius]

about 34,000 people a year in the United States die from the seasonal flu. You can get the flu shot, still get the flu and still die. There is no guarantee that a flu shot will keep you from getting the flu. Influenza (flue) mutates every year, sometimes our bodies are able to fight it off, but not always.

Here are some types of Influenza

Influenza A
This genus has one species, influenza A virus. Wild aquatic birds are the natural hosts for a large variety of influenza A. Occasionally, viruses are transmitted to other species and may then cause devastating outbreaks in domestic poultry or give rise to human influenza pandemics.[14] The type A viruses are the most virulent human pathogens among the three influenza types and cause the most severe disease. The influenza A virus can be subdivided into different serotypes based on the antibody response to these viruses.[15] The serotypes that have been confirmed in humans, ordered by the number of known human pandemic deaths, are
H1N1, which caused Spanish flu in 1918, and the 2009 flu pandemic
H2N2, which caused Asian Flu in 1957
H3N2, which caused Hong Kong Flu in 1968
H5N1, a current pandemic threat
H7N7, which has unusual zoonotic potential[16]
H1N2, endemic in humans and pigs
H9N2
H7N2
H7N3
H10N7

Influenza B
This genus has one species, influenza B virus. Influenza B almost exclusively infects humans[15] and is less common than influenza A. The only other animals known to be susceptible to influenza B infection are the seal[17] and the ferret.[18] This type of influenza mutates at a rate 2–3 times lower than type A[19] and consequently is less genetically diverse, with only one influenza B serotype.[15] As a result of this lack of antigenic diversity, a degree of immunity to influenza B is usually acquired at an early age. However, influenza B mutates enough that lasting immunity is not possible.[20] This reduced rate of antigenic change, combined with its limited host range (inhibiting cross species antigenic shift), ensures that pandemics of influenza B do not occur.[21]


Influenza C
This genus has one species, influenza C virus, which infects humans, dogs and pigs, sometimes causing both severe illness and local epidemics.[22][23] However, influenza C is less common than the other types and usually only causes mild disease in children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

[calliope]

We are talking about the vaccine.
And not about Tami flu.

Its like bringing up a list of car crashes to prove that flying is unsafe. And than claim the figures are relevant because they are both about transportation.

Actually it's quite relevant, as the discussion at hand revolves around the fact that the medical-industrial complex has profit as its priority. So illustrating that yet another facet of the swine-flu "scare" is that pharmaceutical big business is scamming even more $$ from swine flu sufferers is very relevant, in considering the enormous profit to be made from the "scare" prompting the vaccines as well. Tamiflu has shown to be very detrimental to a large number of esp children, and yet we sweep that alarming fact under the proverbial rug also.

[calliope]

Just to reiterate and update my previous note:




Also, I'd like to state that for all my disagreement with vaccines, the AMA and allopathic medicine, in general, mostly due to their fascist control over all healing methods, I do utterly believe that such elements do have a very important place in the world.

I am very grateful for numerous instances in my life that involved modern, mainstream medicine. I do not criticize all aspects of mainstream medical practices, practitioners and researchers in the least.

They serve a very crucial necessity in society. I love that we have biologists such as Lycanox, keeping us safe from dangers we don't even know exist. Technology does so much toward making life comfortable and bearable enough that we are able -- all of humanity, as opposed to a select privileged few -- to progress in areas such as spirituality, knowledge and myriad others.

But there has to be a balance, in allowing the good effects to outweigh the negative, and allowing differing approaches to exist, in harmony, and alongside such technological advances as allopathic medicine. And not allow the powerful aspects of such technology to overrun and control our lives, rather than to enhance them.

[MetalMilitia]

The guardian UK (online paper) is doing a great job with these kinda updates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/17/swine-flu-tamiflu

Side effects of the race to beat swine flu


A giant experiment started in England on Thursday 23 July. The algorithm-driven free "prescription" of Tamiflu through the National Pandemic Flu Service is without precedent. A giant experiment started in England on Thursday 23 July. The algorithm-driven free "prescription" of Tamiflu through the National Pandemic Flu Service is without precedent. Never before has an antimicrobial agent been used on such a vast scale without medical control.

It could be said that policymakers have only themselves to blame for making this inevitable. Pronouncements about pandemic planning in recent years – and the plan itself – for all practical purposes redefined a pandemic as a horror-laden event in which mortuaries would be overflowing, with people dropping dead in the street and normal civic functions grinding to a halt. So it is not surprising that when swine flu met the standard pandemic criterion – community spread in more than one continent – WHO was lobbied (unsuccessfully) by the UK to postpone its declaration and incorporate severity into its definition.

But in spite of all the subsequent pronouncements that swine flu is mild for most, causing an illness no worse than seasonal flu (which rarely hits the headlines and whose sufferers rarely get Tamiflu unless they are in high-risk groups), it appears that policymakers still considered that the public wanted more to be done. And the perception of Tamiflu as a life-saving cure – however overblown – has defined the necessary action.

The pandemic plan caused the government to buy lots of Tamiflu. A cynic might say that not using up a big stockpile with a finite shelf life when there is a use for it would be an affront to the tidy civil service mind, which has a horror of untidiness and leaving loose ends and which is driven by the need to prevent waste at all costs.

There is no doubt that Tamiflu brings benefits. The earlier it is given the greater they are. The ideal is to take it before the onset of symptoms. Even after a couple of days it shortens the illness by a day or so. It is less certain how effective it is in preventing the development of severe complications, although it is reasonable to assume that it may reduce their frequency. Its effect in reducing the transmission of the virus from person to person is probably not very great. Influenza virus sufferers are excreting virus before the onset of symptoms so taking Tamiflu a day or so later means that they will already have had plenty of opportunities to infect their close contacts.

So the benefits to be expected from giving Tamiflu – even on a grand scale – are real, but limited. And there are downsides. Some will experience side effects. These are well known. Nausea and vomiting has been taken up by the tabloids. In most of the anecdotes it is impossible to know whether the symptoms have been caused by the drug, or by the influenza for which the complainant was being treated.

The big worry is that the exuberant and poorly controlled use of Tamiflu will hasten the appearance and spread of resistant mutants. It used to be thought that these were feeble viruses that spread poorly. No longer. H1N1 seasonal viruses that are highly resistant and effective spreaders suddenly appeared throughout Europe in the 2007-2008 winter flu season. Only time will tell whether swine flu will go down the same road. As a general principle the use of a single antimicrobial agent sooner (if poorly controlled) or later (when under medical control) selects for resistance. Exceptions are few and far between. So the operations of the National Pandemic Influenza Service carry a big risk. The race is between resistance and the vaccine.

It could be said that policymakers have only themselves to blame for making this inevitable. Pronouncements about pandemic planning in recent years – and the plan itself – for all practical purposes redefined a pandemic as a horror-laden event in which mortuaries would be overflowing, with people dropping dead in the street and normal civic functions grinding to a halt. So it is not surprising that when swine flu met the standard pandemic criterion – community spread in more than one continent – WHO was lobbied (unsuccessfully) by the UK to postpone its declaration and incorporate severity into its definition.

But in spite of all the subsequent pronouncements that swine flu is mild for most, causing an illness no worse than seasonal flu (which rarely hits the headlines and whose sufferers rarely get Tamiflu unless they are in high-risk groups), it appears that policymakers still considered that the public wanted more to be done. And the perception of Tamiflu as a life-saving cure – however overblown – has defined the necessary action.

The pandemic plan caused the government to buy lots of Tamiflu. A cynic might say that not using up a big stockpile with a finite shelf life when there is a use for it would be an affront to the tidy civil service mind, which has a horror of untidiness and leaving loose ends and which is driven by the need to prevent waste at all costs.

There is no doubt that Tamiflu brings benefits. The earlier it is given the greater they are. The ideal is to take it before the onset of symptoms. Even after a couple of days it shortens the illness by a day or so. It is less certain how effective it is in preventing the development of severe complications, although it is reasonable to assume that it may reduce their frequency. Its effect in reducing the transmission of the virus from person to person is probably not very great. Influenza virus sufferers are excreting virus before the onset of symptoms so taking Tamiflu a day or so later means that they will already have had plenty of opportunities to infect their close contacts.

So the benefits to be expected from giving Tamiflu – even on a grand scale – are real, but limited. And there are downsides. Some will experience side effects. These are well known. Nausea and vomiting has been taken up by the tabloids. In most of the anecdotes it is impossible to know whether the symptoms have been caused by the drug, or by the influenza for which the complainant was being treated.

The big worry is that the exuberant and poorly controlled use of Tamiflu will hasten the appearance and spread of resistant mutants. It used to be thought that these were feeble viruses that spread poorly. No longer. H1N1 seasonal viruses that are highly resistant and effective spreaders suddenly appeared throughout Europe in the 2007-2008 winter flu season. Only time will tell whether swine flu will go down the same road. As a general principle the use of a single antimicrobial agent sooner (if poorly controlled) or later (when under medical control) selects for resistance. Exceptions are few and far between. So the operations of the National Pandemic Influenza Service carry a big risk. The race is between resistance and the vaccine.

[calliope]

On the other side of the debate is a growing amount of people that have completely lost touch with reality.

That believe that taking a vaccination always equate to getting sick. Despite the extremely low chance of that actually happening and the amount of people that get saved from a horrible decease each year thanks to the vaccine.

People that continually continue making false claims like the one about autism. Despite it being disproved countless of time and lacking any real scientific basis.

People that endanger their children by allowing them to remain vulnerable for dangerous deceases. Because they cant get over the fact that the companies are making money out of it or are believing some kind of conspiracy theory.

You see, it is not pro vaccination side that is having a shady agenda.
But the people from the anti vaccination side that are always trying to scare people away from a perfect normal medical procedure.

Unless you can prove that the vaccine is actually more dangerous than the flue virus itself. You simply have no point here.

It's really quite reckless to place the burden of proof on the consumer to prove that injecting our bodies full of poisons is dangerous and unconscionable.

Dr. Jonas Salk, after the initial failure of his polio vaccine testified that the polio vaccine caused much much more harm than it prevented:

Jonas Salk, inventor of the Polio Vaccine, testified in 1977 that the 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

2) The Centers for Disease Control admitted that ALL US cases of polio after 1979 were caused by the VACCINE.

Polio: 1921 caused 7229 deaths, in 1956 it dropped to 1654 deaths, a 77% decrease BEFORE the VACCINE.

Influenza: 1916 caused 54,283 deaths, in 1971-75 it dropped to 491 deaths, a 99% decrease BEFORE the VACCINE.

Additionally, large drops in other disease death rates occurred long before vaccines were introduced. From 1900 to 1963, death rates from measles had declined from 13.3 per 100,000 to 0.2 per 100,000 a 98% decrease. From 1900 to 1949, death rates from whooping cough declined from 12.2 per 100,000 to 0.5 per 100,000, a 96% decrease. From 1900 to 1949, death rates from diphtheria declined from 40.3 per 100,000 to 0.4 per 100,000, a 99% decrease. Each decrease was before the vaccine was introduced.

These are clear and major changes in death rates for these diseases well before any vaccines were introduced. Again, we saw 96% to 99% drops in rates BEFORE A VACCINE WAS INTRODUCED FOR THAT ILLNESS. Do you still think it is right for vaccine makers to claim responsibility for this change?

So if vaccines can only be credited with about a 1 to 4% influence on the decreased rates of these diseases, then what caused the drop? During those time frames we got better sanitation, clean food and water, and better access to health care and antibiotics that cured some of the illnesses.

from http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:6TFXlPlu3WUJ:www.laserpainreliefinf o.com/files/july_07_nl_final.doc+the+sanctity+of+human+blood,+ jonas+salk&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[elkia]

great post calliope...this is how disease works.. it preys on the weak and unhealthy. And depending on how you care for yourself before and while you are sick all effects the outcome.
I really do not think that any one disease would kill that many people to effect the population of the planet as a whole that drastically with or without vaccines.
The vaccines themselves(as calliope stated)kill alot of people also... they are not always the life-savers that they are made out to be.

[MetalMilitia]

Excellent points above 2 posts....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1207270/A-nurses-refuse-swine-flu-jab.html


Up to a third of nurses will say no to the swine flu jab because of concerns over its safety, a poll has found.

NHS workers are first in line for the vaccine, but a survey of 1,500 nurses found many will reject it.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1207270/A-nurses-refuse-swine-flu-jab.html#ixzz0OXakAYPZ


Outright reject - that's people in the medical profession saying no over safety issues. I understand it does help tons of people, as Lyca mentioned, but this is a clear cut case where people don't want anything imposed on them.

[lycanox]

It's really quite reckless to place the burden of proof on the consumer to prove that injecting our bodies full of poisons is dangerous and unconscionable.I don't. I place the burden's of proof on medical institutes to actually proof or disproof the link.

People with no medical education should not make any claims about the effects of a medicine at all. Unless they are quoting actual experts.



Dr. Jonas Salk, after the initial failure of his polio vaccine testified that the polio vaccine caused much much more harm than it prevented:

Jonas Salk, inventor of the Polio Vaccine, testified in 1977 that the 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

2) The Centers for Disease Control admitted that ALL US cases of polio after 1979 were caused by the VACCINE.
Which proves that polio has been eradicated in the west thanks to the vaccine. And its spread is stopped because other people are vaccinated.


Polio: 1921 caused 7229 deaths, in 1956 it dropped to 1654 deaths, a 77% decrease BEFORE the VACCINE.
And aside of the vaccine caused Polio. The decease h

Influenza: 1916 caused 54,283 deaths, in 1971-75 it dropped to 491 deaths, a 99% decrease BEFORE the VACCINE.

Additionally, large drops in other disease death rates occurred long before vaccines were introduced. From 1900 to 1963, death rates from measles had declined from 13.3 per 100,000 to 0.2 per 100,000 a 98% decrease. From 1900 to 1949, death rates from whooping cough declined from 12.2 per 100,000 to 0.5 per 100,000, a 96% decrease. From 1900 to 1949, death rates from diphtheria declined from 40.3 per 100,000 to 0.4 per 100,000, a 99% decrease. Each decrease was before the vaccine was introduced.

These are clear and major changes in death rates for these diseases well before any vaccines were introduced. Again, we saw 96% to 99% drops in rates BEFORE A VACCINE WAS INTRODUCED FOR THAT ILLNESS. Do you still think it is right for vaccine makers to claim responsibility for this change?
Just the effects of other scientific discoveries.


So if vaccines can only be credited with about a 1 to 4% influence on the decreased rates of these diseases, then what caused the drop? During those time frames we got better sanitation, clean food and water, and better access to health care and antibiotics that cured some of the illnesses.
Preventive health care should always be prioritized over curing it when it is too late. Poor regions of the world don't have access to health care.
And without vaccinated protections. The extra amount of people that get sick will cause an serious amount of pressure on the already crowded health care system.

Antibiotics use should be used as little as possible due to the build up of resistance. And the other treatments often have more sever side effects than the vaccination itself.

Besides, would you really rather face a dangerous decease or an intense antibiotic cure like Tamiflu. Over an preventive injection which only has a one in million chance of producing severe side effects.

Not to mention that we would still have the dangerous decease small pocks to worry about.

[calliope]

I don't. I place the burden's of proof on medical institutes to actually proof or disproof the link.

But their agenda overrides this necessity. Again, please refer to the post that examines exactly what each side of the debate has to gain. The ones making the money/government policy have huge stock in vaccinations, for a myriad of reasons. The ones, including many medical doctors, have nothing to gain, except our health and livelihood, and personal endangerment, harassment.


People with no medical education should not make any claims about the effects of a medicine at all. Unless they are quoting actual experts.

That's actually what is being done.



Which proves that polio has been eradicated in the west thanks to the vaccine. And its spread is stopped because other people are vaccinated.

Not really.


"Jonas Salk's polio vaccine only lasted for 17 months because of all the deaths and paralysis it caused. Its replacement was the Sabin oral vaccine, which has been in use ever since. Here's what Albert Sabin, MD, inventor of that vaccine, had to say 30 years later: "Official data has shown that the large scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases for which they were supposed to provide immunization. In essence it was and is a failure."

From The Sanctity of Human Blood


PREDISPOSING HOST-FACTORS

Dr. Geffen is Medical Officer of Health for St. Pancras, and in his address from which the foregoing has been quoted he had some very interesting things to say about the importance of predisposing factors in the host as compared with that of the infecting virus. He gave a list of four main host factors which predispose a person to developing the disease:

(1) Operations for the removal of tonsils and adenoids.

(2) The condition of pregnancy.

(3) Undue exertion, fatigue and chill.

(4) Small injuries such as the inoculation of vaccines, injection of drugs like penicillin. In these cases paralysis is usually observed in the limb which has received the trauma.

A large amount of inquiry, he said, had convinced Gaylord Anderson, Professor of Public Health in Minnesota, U.S.A., of the following facts:

(a) Persons with bulbar type of polio give a history of removal of tonsils and adenoids more frequently than do persons with other forms of poliomyelitis.

(b) If a person who has had tonsillectomy develops poliomyelitis, the likelihood of bulbar involvement is 4 times as great as in one where the tonsils are in situ.

(C) The higher proportion of bulbar cases in tonsillectomised persons occurs at all ages and regardless of the time that has elapsed since operation.( Dr. R. V. Southcott (Med. Jour. .Aust. 1953. ii. 281) believes that a child whose tonsils were removed at the usual age of 5-7 yrs suffers trauma to the nerves of the pharynx which increases susceptibility to bulbar poliomyelitis for at least ten years. In an outbreak in South Australia in 1947-48 he found that in 35 out of 39 cases of bulbar poliomyelitis the patient had been tonsillectomised).

(d) The higher proportion of bulbar cases in older persons is due primarily to absence of tonsils rather than to age per se.

The theory is that any injury to the body causes changes in the nerve-cells supplying the part so that they are rendered less able to resist infection with the virus. Dr. Geffen has himself observed that persons contracting polio after appendicectomy develop paralysis of the abdominal muscles or even of the muscles of the intestine. He is convinced that the injection of diphtheria-pertussis vaccine not only localises the paralysis of persons infected with virus but also increases the attack-rate. There can be little doubt, therefore, that even the vaccination of children against poliomyelitis itself may provide the very conditions which favour an attack and so increase the incidence of the disease. And this risk is by no means confined to the first injection. As a correspondent in the Lancet (March 6, 1954. p. 516) pointed out: "A child who is injected three times is at risk three times; there is replication of exposure..."

CONFIRMATORY EXPERIMENTS

NEEDLESS to say Dr. Geffen is able to cite numerous experiments on animals, performed by various research workers, which lend support to his contentions, though clinical experience had already provided all the evidence required by any truly scientific standard. We are told, for instance, that D. Bodian of Baltimore had in 1954 performed some experiments in connection with poliomyelitis following injections. They consisted in injecting the virus directly into the hearts of cynomolgus monkeys. Paralysis occurred in 50 per cent. of monkeys so treated and in at least 20 per cent. the initial paralysis affected the facial muscles. If, however, the monkeys were first injected with various irritant substances, including gelatin, cortisone, penicillin, or diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus vaccine within one to three weeks prior to the intracardiac injection of the virus, not only was there an undue proportion of cases where paralysis affected the limb receiving the injection. but that instead of 50 per cent, of the monkeys developing poliomyclitis the proportion was increased to 80 per cent.

He also referred to experiments which showed that castration in monkeys induced a greater susceptibility to the intra-nasal inoculation of the virus. It also appears that in spite of the fact that it had been a matter of clinical observation that human beings suffering from a deficiency of Vitamin B6 have a lowered resistance to infection, a considerable number of monkeys were subjected by Bodiant [Bodian D. (1948) .Amer. Jour. Hygiene. 48, 87-93.] to an investigation in which they were deprived of this vitamin (pyridoxin) and then exposed to infection. The results seemed to confirm clinical experience.

It is interesting to note that another predisposing factor to severe paralysis which has come to light is lumbar puncture for the withdrawal of cerebro-spinal fluid. A correspondent in the Lancet (May 29, 1954, p:l133) called attention to the danger of spinal puncture in cases of frank or suspected cases of poliomyelitis.

A predisposing factor which, [b]it was pointed out by another correspondent in the Lancet (May 29, 1954, p. 1133), may be of equal importance to tonsillectomy and other minor surgical operations is the extraction of teeth. He asks if it would not be wise to postpone extractions in children whenever possible during any period of poliomyelitis prevalence.

Just the effects of other scientific discoveries.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/bayly.html


Preventive health care should always be prioritized over curing it when it is too late. Poor regions of the world don't have access to health care.
And without vaccinated protections. The extra amount of people that get sick will cause an serious amount of pressure on the already crowded health care system.



This is a very skewed perspective. Enormous amounts of $$ are poured into vaccinating the populations of third world countries...when this money could so well be spent in enhancing their health infrastructure in so much more inexpensive, and health pro-active ways. In much of my reading I've seen the questioning of this bizarre practice -- not helping these regions in any other way except to pump their children, with already ill-functioning immune systems -- full of loads of vaccines that don't actually cure anything. It really doesn't make any sense whatsover, if one approaches the matter from a logical perspective. Such as, how living and sanitary conditions may be improved for so much less the cost than mass vaccination programs.


Antibiotics use should be used as little as possible due to the build up of resistance.

Agree 100%. The healing potential of much less expensive and harmful methods far exceeds the effect of antibiotics. Ths includes homeopathy, naturopathy, natural antibiotics -- and numerous other solutions. All providing much strengthened health and immune systems, without the detrimental effects of antibiotics. These alternatives, however, are severely limited by the AMA and other governing bodies. One thing -- they are relatively cost-free. No profit here. So they are automatically dismissed.


And the other treatments often have more sever side effects than the vaccination itself.

Severe side effects are the result of all allopathic druggery. Which is compounded when a comprised immune system (exacerbated by rounds of life-depleting vaccinations) is assaulted with them.


Besides, would you really rather face a dangerous decease or an intense antibiotic cure like Tamiflu. Over an preventive injection which only has a one in million chance of producing severe side effects.

The statistics show otherwise, though mostly hidden and obscured. Tamiflu is just an expensive extract of elderberry, compounded with some dangerous toxins, to hike up its cost. Taking elderberry as a preventative is a much preferable and inexpensive alternative.

[lycanox]

[QUOTE]But their agenda overrides this necessity. Again, please refer to the post that examines exactly what each side of the debate has to gain. The ones making the money/government policy have huge stock in vaccinations, for a myriad of reasons. The ones, including many medical doctors, have nothing to gain, except our health and livelihood, and personal endangerment, harassment.
Nonsense. That is like suggesting that the entire red cross is secretly hoping for a disaster so they get more donations.

The majority of the people that work on the vaccines are hard working people that do their best to help mankind like the rest of us. Their salary is not dependent on the results. And what do they get as a result.

They get called murderers. Greedy baby poisoners and sometimes even attacked by radical vaccine doubters.


That's actually what is being done.
Mostly by the against camp do.

That article you linked for example. Is from a chiropractor.





Not really.


This is a very skewed perspective. Enormous amounts of $$ are poured into vaccinating the populations of third world countries...when this money could so well be spent in enhancing their health infrastructure in so much more inexpensive, and health pro-active ways. In much of my reading I've seen the questioning of this bizarre practice -- not helping these regions in any other way except to pump their children, with already ill-functioning immune systems -- full of loads of vaccines that don't actually cure anything. It really doesn't make any sense whatsover, if one approaches the matter from a logical perspective. Such as, how living and sanitary conditions may be improved for so much less the cost than mass vaccination programs.
However the small pocks vaccine proved to be quite successful in the extermination of that decease.


Agree 100%. The healing potential of much less expensive and harmful methods far exceeds the effect of antibiotics. Ths includes homeopathy, naturopathy, natural antibiotics -- and numerous other solutions. All providing much strengthened health and immune systems, without the detrimental effects of antibiotics. These alternatives, however, are severely limited by the AMA and other governing bodies. One thing -- they are relatively cost-free. No profit here. So they are automatically dismissed.

So please provide evidence that that could cure small pocks and polio without negative side effects. And is cheaper than the vaccine.


Severe side effects are the result of all allopathic druggery. Which is compounded when a comprised immune system (exacerbated by rounds of life-depleting vaccinations) is assaulted with them.
And back the the vaccinations weaken the immune system conspiracy again.


The statistics show otherwise, though mostly hidden and obscured. Tamiflu is just an expensive extract of elderberry, compounded with some dangerous toxins, to hike up its cost. Taking elderberry as a preventative is a much preferable and inexpensive alternative.Taking the vaccination, which in most countries will be free. Is even more cheaper. Without having to resort to dangerous substances like tamiflu.

[calliope]

Nonsense. That is like suggesting that the entire red cross is secretly hoping for a disaster so they get more donations.

The example of the military/industrial comples and contractors making billions from deliberate pseudo-wars is actually a better example.


The majority of the people that work on the vaccines are hard working people that do their best to help mankind like the rest of us. Their salary is not dependent on the results. And what do they get as a result.

I'm sure they believe in what they're doing. Medical schools eliminate every path of healing that is not allopathic. As stated before, the AMA practically criminalized and forced homeopathic universities out of the country, so that they could inculcate allopathic druggery into medical schools, with no competition from other healing ways.



Mostly by the against camp do.

That article you linked for example. Is from a chiropractor.

The people questioning vaccines are quoting statistics and medical professionals, in the medical profession -- such as Jonas Salk -- who have solid evidence for their concerns. Including the chiropractor, who is also very knowledgable about the human body.


So please provide evidence that that could cure small pocks and polio without negative side effects. And is cheaper than the vaccine.

Apparently you have skipped over my previous post, and are arguing only to prove your superiority over me, rather than to reach any valid conclusion about the truth. I'm not arguing to try to win some kind of competition. You are being specious and dismissive. Much of what I've already posted proves that vaccines did not "cure" (made them worse in fact) these illnesses, but you have glossed over all of it.



And back the the vaccinations weaken the immune system conspiracy again.

This isn't a conspiracy when there is so much evidence to attest to the truth of this matter.


Taking the vaccination, which in most countries will be free. Is even more cheaper. Without having to resort to dangerous substances like tamiflu.

It isn't free, it's paid for with tax money. And you have ignored the facts about tamiflu as well. The part about using elderberry, of which tamiflu is a derivative combined with dangerous chemicals, which is available in natural form, as a precaution against the flu.

[calliope]

Some Facts:

In 1871-2, England, with 98% of the population aged between 2 and 50 vaccinated against smallpox, experienced its worst ever smallpox outbreak with 45,000 deaths. During the same period in Germany, with a vaccination rate of 96%, there were over 125,000 deaths from smallpox. (The Hadwen Documents)

In Germany, compulsory mass vaccination against diphtheria commenced in 1940 and by 1945 diphtheria cases were up from 40,000 to 250,000. (Don't Get Stuck, Hannah Allen)

In the USA in 1960, two virologists discovered that both polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV 40 virus, which causes cancer in animals as well as changes in human cell tissue cultures. Millions of children had been injected with these vaccines. (Med Jnl of Australia 17/3/1973 p555)

In 1967, Ghana was declared measles free by the World Health Organization after 96% of its population was vaccinated. In 1972, Ghana experienced one of its worst measles outbreaks with its highest ever mortality rate. (Dr H Albonico, MMR Vaccine Campaign in Switzerland, March 1990)

In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)

In the 1970's, a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. (The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)

In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk, who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts”)

In 1978, a survey of 30 states in the US revealed that more than half of the children who contracted measles had been adequately vaccinated. (The People's Doctor, Dr R Mendelsohn)

In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times! (BMJ 283:696-697, 1981)

The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

In the USA, the cost of a single DPT shot had risen from 11 cents in 1982 to $11.40 in 1987. The manufacturers of the vaccine were putting aside $8 per shot to cover legal costs and damages they were paying out to parents of brain damaged children and children who died after vaccination. (The Vine, Issue 7, January 1994, Nambour, Qld)

In Oman between 1988 and 1989, a polio outbreak occurred amongst thousands of fully vaccinated children. The region with the highest attack rate had the highest vaccine coverage. The region with the lowest attack rate had the lowest vaccine coverage. (The Lancet, 21/9/91)

In 1990, a UK survey involving 598 doctors revealed that over 50% of them refused to have the Hepatitis B vaccine despite belonging to the high risk group urged to be vaccinated. (British Med Jnl, 27/1/1990)

In 1990, the Journal of the American Medical Association had an article on measles which stated:

“Although more than 95% of school-aged children in the US are vaccinated against measles, large measles outbreaks continue to occur in schools and most cases in this setting occur among previously vaccinated children." (JAMA, 21/11/90)

In the USA, from July 1990 to November 1993, the US Food and Drug Administration counted 54,072 adverse reactions following vaccination. The FDA admitted that this number represented only 10% of the real total, because most doctors were refusing to report vaccine injuries. In other words, adverse reactions for this period exceeded half a million! (National Vaccine Information Centre, March 2, 1994)

In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue, a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

On November 2nd, 2000, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) announced that its members voted at their 57th annual meeting in St Louis to pass a resolution calling for an end to mandatory childhood vaccines. The resolution passed without a single "no" vote. (Report by Michael Devitt)

"If vaccines are ineffective, then whether they are safe or not becomes totally irrelevant."

The United States legal standard applied to vaccines defines them as "unavoidably unsafe products that are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use". The reason why vaccines are unsafe, or in other words harmful, is that they are made up of chemicals and other elements that are poisonous to the body.


Some of these chemicals and elements include formaldehyde, which is commonly used to embalm corpses and is a known carcinogen (capable of causing cancer), thiomersal, a derivative of mercury which is a toxic heavy metal, and aluminum phosphate which is a toxin used in deodorants. Other toxic ingredients include phenol (carbolic acid), alum (a preservative), and acetone which is a volatile solvent and a deadly poison used in fingernail polish remover.

Vaccines contain not only poisonous chemicals but also foreign proteins such as chick embryo, calf serum, rabbit brain tissue and monkey kidney cells. These foreign proteins can trigger numerous allergic and inflammatory reactions and can produce anaphylactic shock in susceptible infants.

When these vaccine ingredients enter the child's bloodstream (either through injection or taken orally), the child's body will take immediate action to eliminate these poisons either through the normal organs of elimination or through acute reactions such as fever, swelling or skin rashes. As long as these latter reactions are not suppressed through drugs, it is possible for the child's body to eliminate these vaccine poisons thereby ensuring that no long-term damage will occur.

However, should the child have insufficient vitality to mount an eliminative reaction, or should the eliminative reaction (fever, swelling, skin rash) be suppressed with drugs, then the vaccine poisons will be retained within the body's tissues. It is the retention of these vaccine poisons that, in susceptible infants, can trigger or at least contribute to the development of illnesses such as: juvenile diabetes, autism, asthma, neurological disorders, leukemia, and even crib deaths.

In many children, the retention of vaccine poisons within the body may not cause any acute or noticeable symptoms, but it will cause a lowering of the child's vitality, which in turn, weakens and impairs its intellectual, creative, and imaginative powers, its physical energy and strength, and all of its internal metabolic functions and immune activities. What this means is that the child will operate at a level well below its true potential.

The toxic build-up within the child's body and the subsequent depletion of its vitality through vaccines, drugs, fluoridated water, food additives, processed foods, pesticide residues, atmospheric pollutants, electromagnetic radiation and other adverse factors in the lifestyle makes the child more susceptible to chronic disease at an earlier age. It is worth noting that the dramatic rise in childhood cancer, autism, juvenile diabetes, asthma, and neurological disorders over the past fifty years has directly coincided with the era of drugs, vaccines, fast foods, malnutrition, and chemical poisons in our food, water, and environment.

http://www.youarebeingpoisoned.com/vaccines.html

[calliope]

The reason there are protests against vaccine developers, and even hostility, is that people's children ARE DYING from substances that they are told are necessary for their health.


In the USA, the cost of a single DPT shot had risen from 11 cents in 1982 to $11.40 in 1987. The manufacturers of the vaccine were putting aside $8 per shot to cover legal costs and damages they were paying out to parents of brain damaged children and children who died after vaccination. (The Vine, Issue 7, January 1994, Nambour, Qld)

from the above article.


Parents are watching their children suffer and die in the most unnecessary and mind boggling way, so of course they are upset at those who manufacture and profit from these vaccines:



A 1985 federal report prepared for the United States Institute of Medicine concluded that if 3.6 million American children receive three pertussis vaccinations each as recommended, 22 to 36 of those infants will suffer permanent brain damage each year from the vaccine.

This vaccine is intended to prevent whooping cough, mind you — a disease which can now be treated with commonly available antibiotics. Though in fact, even the level of that "protection" is highly debatable. In a recent outbreak of whooping cough in Cincinnati, more vaccinated children came down with the disease than children who'd received no shots.

Nor is the pertussis vaccine alone. Right up to his death in 1995, Jonas Salk warned "The live virus against measles and mumps may produce side effects such as encephalitis." And the oral polio vaccine now favored in America over the safer Salk vaccine actually caused 94 cases of polio in this country between 1969 and 1982, according to the same USIM report.

Donna Burns of Gardner, Mass., whose son Ryan had been normal until he received his recommended pertussis shots, but who immediately thereafter developed high fever, screaming, and swelling of the head and brain, leading to his permanent partial disability (epilepsy, hearing loss, motor problems, learning disabilities) says more than 18,000 permanent damage claims have been filed under the federal Vaccine Compensation Act.

At one point, after she and her witnesses gave statements in Ryan's case, "The stenographer told us she knew exactly what we were going to say because all the cases are the same."

This is why the law in most states instructs that children can be given such shots only after the parent or guardian has provided written, "informed consent."

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Health_Care/vaccination_parade.htm

[proffett]

Lycanox, you dismissed a chiropractor and his views. I have all but gone on to med school, I didn't for a myriad of reasons, one being I realized I was just another puppet of the medical complex. I sought a more naturopathic path. You are, from what I have read a biologist, not a Doctor of Medicine either, so your views shouldn't count by your own logic.

In pre-med I was inundated with companies like Merck, Bayer, GSK and Pfizer bringing the students goodies and hosting conventions for their companies, pandering to the closed minds of the medical students and peddling their wares like door to door sales men out to make some moola, not out to save lives as your romantic view of Big Pharma suggests... Do you get paid well to suckle from their teats?

At the veterinary clinics I worked at EVERY ONE OF THEM had Pharmaceutical companies come out to sell us on new treatments, vaccines and other products. After we began using Advantix (a topical flea and tick medication) because of a seminar we attended we noticed several of our feline patients in the houses with the canines who were treated with Advantix fell ill and some actually died. Come to find out, Advantix is lethal to felines and the cats shouldn't even be in the same area as the dog for up to a week after having the treatment applied. Are those cats their owners and we, their caretakers, came to love just casualties of new treatments?

Another example from my days of being a veterinary technician was the amount of felines who developed injection site cancers from the FVRCPC vaccine. This vaccine is to be given at three week intervals up to 12 weeks of age and then repeated yearly. The type of tumor the cats would get are the most aggressive sarcomas I have ever witnessed. Instead of eliminating the vaccine or making it safer, the companies who manufactured the vaccine began to emphasize the importance of vaccinating the cats below the hip so if a sarcoma developed, the leg could be amputated and the felines life saved, but at what cost? Surely the owners and not the Vaccine companies would have to foot the $3000 bill for pre-op testing, anesthesia, surgery, recovery, hospitalization and monitoring, not to mention the pain medications...



Certainly there are people in a lab somewhere doing good and I commend them all. But Pharmaceutical Companies are driven by one thing, and it ain't your health...

[lycanox]

The reason there are protests against vaccine developers, and even hostility, is that people's children ARE DYING from substances that they are told are necessary for their health.

Parents are watching their children suffer and die in the most unnecessary and mind boggling way, so of course they are upset at those who manufacture and profit from these vaccines:Correction only one out of a couple of million children are actually dying. Whish would be a lot more if we didn't invent vaccinations.

Let them protest against real issues. Instead of harrashing doctors. And making scaremongering websites like the one you posted.

Anyone can make lists of that. Perhaps I should make one about all the toxic materials you breath in in nature and suggest to ban forrests.
Or one about all the food poisoning related deaths to scare people away from eating.

No medicine is 100 percent safe. Even common things like water paracetamol and oxygen are linked to deathly side effects. But this is simply a risk people must accept if they want to avoid the much bigger decease related risk.

There is no conspiracy to keep things under wraps. New vaccines and supplements are being tested each day. Only few of them make it past the innitial safety tests. And the people doing those tests are not NeoNazies and the like. They are just people that are trying to help the world getting rid of another nasty problem. They dont get payed for each successful result. They get payed regardless the vaccine works or not.

Unfortunately it appears that only an actual outbreak among unvaccinated people seems to be the only thing those people understand.

[lycanox]

And now for some real data.


* Diphtheria
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
Cases in 2003: 1
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Hib (<5 yrs old)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
Cases in 2003: 259
Decrease in cases per year: 98.8%

* Measles
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
Cases in 2003: 56
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Mumps
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
Cases in 2003: 231
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Pertussis (whooping cough)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
Cases in 2003: 11,647
Decrease in cases per year: 92.1%

* Polio (paralytic)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Rubella
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 47,745
Cases in 2003: 7
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Smallpox
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 48,164
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Tetanus
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 1,314
Cases in 2003: 20
Decrease in cases per year: 98.5%




Disease-Related Risks

Measles
Pneumonia: 1 in 20 Encephalitis: 1 in 2,000 Death: 1 in 3,000

Mumps
Encephalitis: 1 in 300

Rubella
Congenital Rubella Syndrome: 1 in 4, (if woman becomes infected early in pregnancy)

Adverse Effects ofVaccination (MMR Vaccine)
Encephalitis or severe allergic reaction: 1 in 1,000,000


Disease-Related Risks
Diphtheria
Death: 1 in 20

Tetanus Death: 3 in 100

Pertussis
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 20

Adverse Effects ofVaccination (DTP Vaccine)
Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 100
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 1,750
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
Death: None proven

Source and a lot more vaccine myths debunked. (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu00.html)

[calliope]

Smallpox:

Reasons Physicians Accepted or Declined Smallpox Vaccine, February Through April, 2003

Andrea L. Benin, MD , Louise Dembry, MD, Eugene D. Shapiro, MD, Eric S. Holmboe, MD

Address correspondence to Dr. Benin: IE-61 SHM, P.O. Box 208088, New Haven, CT 06520-8088 (e-mail: andrea.benin@yale.edu).

Received from the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program (ALB, ESH), Department of Epidemiology and Public Health (LD, EDS), Department of Medicine (LD), Department of Pediatrics (EDS), the Children's Clinical Research Center (EDS), Yale Primary Care Internal Medicine Residency Program (ESH), Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Conn.

Copyright © 2004 by the Society of General Internal Medicine

J GEN INTERN MED 2004; 19:85–89.
ABSTRACT

From February to April 2003, we performed an e-mail-based survey to assess responses of physicians at Yale University to being offered smallpox vaccine.

Of 58 respondents, 3 (5%) had been or intended to be vaccinated. Reasons cited for declining vaccination included: belief that benefits did not outweigh risks (55%), belief that the vaccination program was unnecessary (18%), desire to wait and see what side effects occurred in vaccinees (11%), and worries about compensation or liability (7%). Most (94%) considered risks to themselves, family, or patients in their decision. Only 3% thought a smallpox attack in the next 5 years was likely or very likely. Physicians did not accept the smallpox vaccine because they did not believe the potential benefits were sufficient.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118783724/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[calliope]

WHO SMALLPOX ERADICATION SUCCESS RECONSIDERED
R Obosawin MD

Although smallpox is apparently now accorded to the history books,
it will be necessary to re-examine the issue of this disease having been universally eradicated, with particular reference to the WHO eradication campaign. An honest look at this question is of considerable importance, as the current worldwide UCI-EPI program gains much of its legitimacy and inspiration from this widely acclaimed success story.

A strong challenge to this now popular view, is reflected in the post-campaign findings of medical researchers like Buttram and Hoffman:

Most people probably credit the smallpox vaccine with playing the major role in recent eradication of smallpox throughout the world, but let us examine the facts. In the article 'Vaccines a Future in Question,' statistics showed that less than 10 percent of children in developing countries have received vaccines.

They went on to comment that with this level of coverage, the WHO campaign was not a real factor in the eradication. Data obtained in their broad based research also led them to conclude that "mass smallpox vaccination was not necessary for the eradication of smallpox.110

In further examining this question from a longer historical perspective, it became readily apparent that the WHO claim did not at all square with the earlier data, i.e., historical smallpox eradication efforts. If we go back as far as the last century, we discover that Creighton's independent research findings as published in the Ninth Edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, strongly contradict the effectiveness of mass smallpox immunization programs. A few revealing excerpts follow: . . . in Bavaria in 1871 of 30,742 cases 29,429 were in vaccinated persons, or 95.7 percent.

Notwithstanding the fact that Prussia was the best re-vaccinated country in Europe, its mortality from smallpox in the epidemic of 1871 was higher (69,839) than any other Northern state.

According to a competent statistician (A. Vogt), the death-rate from smallpox in the German army, in which all recruits are re-vaccinated, was 60 percent more than among the civil population of the same age . . . although re-vaccination is not obligatory among the latter.

It is often alleged that the unvaccinated are so much inflammable material in the midst of the community, and that smallpox begins among them and gathers force so that it sweeps even the vaccinated before it.

Inquiry into the facts has shown that at Cologne in 1870 the first unvaccinated person attacked by smallpox was the 174th in order of time, at Bonn the same year the 42d, and at Liegnitz in 1871 the 225th.

111 As we move on into the earlier part of this century we find the same dismal picture of increased susceptibility correlated with increased vaccination coverage. Dettman and Kalokerinos describe a visit they paid to the Philippines about 15 years ago: . . . We were fortunate enough to address their own medical (and) health officials where we reminded them of the incidence of smallpox in formerly "immunized" Filipinos. We invited them to consult their own medical records and asked them to correct us if our own facts and figures disagreed. No such correction has been forthcoming, and we can only conclude that between 1918-1919 there were 112,549 cases of smallpox notified, with 60,855 deaths. Systematic (mass) vaccination started in 1905, and since its introduction case mortality increased alarmingly. Their own records comment that "The mortality is hardly explainable."

112 Speaking at a 1973 environmental conference in Brussels, Professor George Dick admitted that in recent decades, 75 percent of those that have contracted smallpox in Britain, have had prior a history of vaccination. In that "only 40%" of children were vaccinated (and at most 10 percent of adults), such figures clearly indicate that the vaccinated--as in the much earlier historical record--continue to show a higher tendency to contract the disease. Dick also admitted that smallpox had been eradicated in certain tropical countries without mass vaccination.

113 (Table VIII reveals that in the 16 year period preceding the year the WHO eradication campaign was launched--38 additional countries had ceased to report any smallpox cases.)

114 A. Hutchison writing in the Journal of the Royal Society in 1974, referred to the smallpox vaccines "lack of potency" and the inadequacies of other measures for containment, in his words, "I have given details of the various outbreaks of smallpox in Britain and where they were diagnosed.

These clearly indicate that the (preventive) measures are most ineffective.

115 An article in the New Scientist indicates that "The smallpox family of viruses is genetically unstable," and that new viral strains which threaten the "WHO smallpox eradication programme, could emerge anywhere.

116 It is thus of interest that in a 1980 article in the Australasian Nurses Journal, Dettman and Kalokerinos pointed out that electron-microscopy cannot distinguish between the various "poxviruses.

117 (According to D, de Saving of IDRC, as of 1990 DNA sequencing can make the distinquishment.

What is not known though, is whether this has any bearing on the reporting of the various "pox" diseases worldwide.) This fact led them to raise a vitally significant question "as to whether smallpox may be declared conquered, (it's estimated that only 10 percent of the world population actually received the vaccine) with the possibility of it masquerading under the guise of a similar pox." Their line of evidence and reasoning is summarily stated: . . . we claim that if the evidence is honestly evaluated that smallpox has actually been prolonged and that the so called protective vaccinations actually put the recipient at risk from . . . the disease itself. Authorities now realize this and the 'top world' countries are making vociferous protests about third world countries continuing use of smallpox vaccination because (a) suddenly it has become recognized that it is an extremely dangerous procedure, (To give some idea of the vaccine's dangers, it was reported--in the late sixties--that annually, roughly 3,000 children were experiencing varying degrees of brain damage due to the smallpox vaccine; and according to G. Kiftel in 1967, smallpox vaccination damaged the hearing of 3,296 children in West Germany, of which 71 became totally deaf.117) and (b) it has now been conquered. The ultimate in ingenuity. . . .

118 In turning to recognized textbooks on human virology and vertebrate viruses we find that attention has been given since 1970 to a disease called "monkeypox," which is said to be "clinically indistinguishable from smallpox." Cases of this disease have been found in Zaire, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Liberia, and Sierra Leone (by May 1983, 101 cases have been reported). It is observed that " . . . the existence of a virus that can cause clinical smallpox is disturbing, and the situation is being closely monitored."

119 (For a highly detailed account of the history of this disease and efforts to eradicate it, which further corroborates these observations, see, Razzell P., The Conquest of Smallpox, Caliban Books, United Kingdom, 1977.)

http://www.ptakchiropractic.com/custom_content/108556_immunizations.html

I don't know, but if you were one of the parents of the 3000+ children who suffer from severe brain damage [b], I seriously doubt that you would be so blase' and careless about the children who suffer such tragedies and death, [I]all the time, as due only to the mere "side-effects" of crippling the populations immune systems with dangerous vaccinations.

These are not lies or propaganda -- they are FACTS, and it's super amazing that such information is so irrevelant to you, that you simply dismiss all of it with a clinical flick of the wrist, and state they're a good thing, overall. If it were your own child, you would not be so unconcerned, I promise you.

[calliope]

You've essentially stomped your foot and pouted that you are right, and every MD risking his profession and his life protesting the harm of vaccines is wrong....doctors who genuinely care abou the harm being done to babies, children and all future generations everywhere. But because you have some sort of investments in these companies, you must, or something to that effect, all these MDs are lying.....and why? For the purpose of receiving huge monetary gains or fame? QUITE the opposite.

Your dismissal of every fact and statistic posted here, without even addressing them, shows that your arrogance regarding this matter is the driving force behind your refusal to even discuss these facts.



Correction only one out of a couple of million children are actually dying. Whish would be a lot more if we didn't invent vaccinations.

Untrue. The facts attest differently.


Let them protest against real issues. Instead of harrashing doctors. And making scaremongering websites like the one you posted.

The number of MDs against vaccines is much more valid than the propaganda you provide, after you've ignored the very valid concerns established everywhere by MDs and medical researchers in so many repuatable sources.


Anyone can make lists of that. Perhaps I should make one about all the toxic materials you breath in in nature and suggest to ban forrests.
Or one about all the food poisoning related deaths to scare people away from eating.

Yes, good idea. Then we would know how really dangerous it is to go and inject enormous amounts of these toxic substances into the undeveloped bodies and immmune systems of NEWBORN BABIES. Most fully grown doctors refuse to take these same vaccines, knowing how extremely toxic they are.


No medicine is 100 percent safe. Even common things like water paracetamol and oxygen are linked to deathly side effects. But this is simply a risk people must accept if they want to avoid the much bigger decease related risk.

There is no conspiracy to keep things under wraps. New vaccines and supplements are being tested each day. Only few of them make it past the innitial safety tests. And the people doing those tests are not NeoNazies and the like. They are just people that are trying to help the world getting rid of another nasty problem. They dont get payed for each successful result. They get payed regardless the vaccine works or not.

Unfortunately it appears that only an actual outbreak among unvaccinated people seems to be the only thing those people understand.

Nope, not true at all.

Please take note:


Proponents of vaccines are quick to cite the polio vaccine and the eradication of smallpox as being the two great benchmarks of vaccination. Those that oppose vaccination, however, argue that infectious disease mortality rates in the U.S. and England declined steadily before the advent of vaccinations due to improved sanitation, hygiene and diet. If these two vaccines were responsible for the decline of polio and the eradication of smallpox, how did these epidemics end at the same time in European countries who refused to vaccinate against the diseases?

Even the WHO (World Health Organization) admits, disease and mortality in Third World countries have no direct correlation with immunization procedures or medical treatment, but are closely related to the standard of hygiene and diet.

A Scientific American article in 1973 revealed similar findings: “over 90% of all contagious diseases were eliminated by vastly improved water systems, sanitation, living conditions, and transportation of food.” Mass vaccination did not appear on the scene until a century after the decline in infectious diseases started (1850-1940), but inoculations were, and still are given full credit.


Did you know that there has never been a formal study performed in the United States which compared vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children and adults yet we have been inoculating ourselves since the 1920’s. Not the FDA, not the CDC, not the medical community. Finally such a study was performed in New Zealand. This was a country where vaccination was mandatory and no longer is. Reported in the prestigious Journal of Epidemiology this study focused on the number of doctor office visits children had relating to asthma and a variety of other allergic diseases.

In the vaccinated group 23.1% were seen before the age of 10 for asthma. Another 30% were cared for for a variety of other allergic diseases. In the unvaccinated population not one child under the age of 10, zero %, was seen for asthma or other allergic diseases. NOT ONE. They found these results to be true for 5 year olds as well as for the 16 year old group.


Across all socioeconomic, race , creed , religions etc.... AMAZING !!!


In the Feb./Mar 1994 Towsend Letter for Doctors an article entitled “Are Vaccines Generally Detrimental to the Human Defense System” can be found.

If vaccines are so effective in preventing disease why have epidemics occurred around the world following vaccination programs? In the Philippines “ after 10 years of compulsory inoculation against smallpox (25 million shots) over 170,000 got smallpox and 75,000 deaths were recorded between 1911 - 1920.”

In a 1996 article in the Journal Of Infectious Diseases, the authors state that “the growing number of vaccines and vaccine combinations will overwhelm the financial and technical resources available for thorough efficacy testing. The situation will likely require post-marketing surveillance to collect data formally provided by large scale trail.” In other words, they will use the uninformed public as test subjects and try these unproven and untested vaccines. It will also allow for more under reporting of adverse vaccine reactions.


http://www.ptakchiropractic.com/custom_content/108556_immunizations.html

[calliope]

And now for some real data.


* Diphtheria
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
Cases in 2003: 1
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Hib (<5 yrs old)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
Cases in 2003: 259
Decrease in cases per year: 98.8%

* Measles
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
Cases in 2003: 56
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Mumps
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
Cases in 2003: 231
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Pertussis (whooping cough)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
Cases in 2003: 11,647
Decrease in cases per year: 92.1%

* Polio (paralytic)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

etc etc etc etc etc........................

Source and a lot more vaccine myths debunked. (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu00.html)

Source -- Quackwatch:


Quackwatch (originally Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud, Inc.) is an AMA shill that took over from the Coordinating Conference on Health Information (CCHI) and the AMA's propaganda department called the Committee on Quackery when it had to disband. It only promotes and defends Allopathic medicine while attacking non-Allopathic. Obvious really, but it has been very effective, eg the Allopaths on Wikipedia add links to Quackwatch or similar Skeptic organisations all the time, to snipe at someone eg Viera Scheibner. Its pages are an excellent document as to the propaganda and mind set of the AMA, see their pages on Escharotics or vaccine deaths for example. Dr Barrett is a psychiatrist.


http://www.quackpotwatch.org The "quackbuster" operation is a conspiracy. It is a propaganda enterprise, one part crackpot, two parts evil. It's sole purpose is to discredit, and suppress, in an "anything goes" attack mode, what is wrongfully named "Alternative Medicine" It has declared war on reality. The conspirators are acting in the interests of, and are being paid, directly and indirectly, by the "conventional" medical-industrial complex.

Quackwatch (Operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D.) affiliate of the National Council Against Health Fraud. National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) http://www.hcrc.org/ncahf/ncahf.html Committee For The Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) http://www.csicop.org/ (CSICOP Fellow--Dr Barrett) Magazine---Skeptical Inquirer
...

Dr. Victor Herbert, Stephen Barrett and William Jarvis are on the Scientific Board of the American Council on Science and Health. Founded in 1978, this organisation is funded solely by the large pharmaceutical and chemical companies, the AMA and industry supported Foundations.

Although he didn't name the specific "professional societies" that endorsed and donated money to his group, he did state that such organizations as medical, dental, osteopathic, and pharmaceutical groups did help him set up his operation."...Barrett's specialty was attacking chiropractic, and, as the AMA News pointed out, Barrett's group was instrumental in helping to defeat legislation "requiring chiropractic coverage under Blue Shield."

http://www.whale.to/a/quackwatch.html

More:

Dr. Barrett, director of quackwatch, with funding sourced from the medical-industrial complex, uses harassment, intimidation, government bribes and smear campaigns to silence alternative medical therapies.


The Quackwatch / National Council Against Health Fraud Team led by Stephen Barrett has used threats of and SLAPP suits such as this one, to attempt to silence critics and exhaust their resources for years.

These tactics have been used by NCAHF/Quackwatch for years.

Read these links below:

A Modern-Day Witch Hunt
Julian Whitaker, M.D.

The NCAHF: Our Modern Witch Hunters

Is Your Doctor on the "Quacklist?"

As bad as it seems, calling the cops to silence contrary opinions is only part of the nefarious actions of certain NCAHF members. John Renner, M.D., from Kansas City, an active board member of the NCAHF, has maintained a list of over 2,500 physicians, Ph.D.s and others he deems to be quacks and frauds. To be on this list you just need to belong to an organization that is studying nutrition or any therapy not yet approved by the FDA.

There's a 1990 copy of the list containing 1,137 M.D.s and 52 people with double doctorates. Although the list does not appear to be in general circulation, it may have been supplied to insurance companies and state medical boards. The result could be that alternative physicians are financially blackballed, or put under additional scrutiny.

John Renner has even put Linus Pauling, Ph.D., on this quacklist. Dr. Pauling has been singled out by two authoritative sources as one of the top 20 scientists of all time, along with Aristotle, Galileo and Newton. The only other scientist selected from the 20th century was Albert Einstein. Imagine, John Renner, a relative "no-weight" compared to Dr. Pauling, labels the only person to be awarded two unshared Nobel prizes as a fraud.

Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

~~~~~~~~~~
Consumer Health Digest is a free weekly e-mail newsletter edited by Stephen Barrett, M.D., and cosponsored by NCAHF and Quackwatch. Where does one operation begin and the other end?

Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Board Chairman, Quackwatch, Inc., NCAHF Vice President and Director of Internet Operations

So the director and founder of quackwatch is nothing more than a medical-industrial propagandist, shill and thug, working for the medical sources who fund him, to stamp out all forms of alternative healing, other than allopathic medicine. He's not even a real psychiatrist, and lost his lawsuit attempting to smear an alternative medicine blog.


Watching the Quackwatch Watchers

Far from being healers in any way, Quackwatch is about ugly Smear Campaigns and SLAPP lawsuits to waste the time, energy, and resources of their many, many targets.

They wage War on every level possible, via Med Boards, meritless lawsuits, smear campaigns, harassing government agencies about those they wish to silence and filling Internet with lies.
...

Barrett is an author of the AMA’s Reader’s Guide to "Alternative" Health Methods. Surely he was remunerated by the AMA for this work."
...


much more on the fraudulent practices of Stephen Barrett: http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/QuackWatchWatch.htm

So, this is the biased "source" of your "real data"? All propaganda and extremely biased "research" when you look at the underlying source of this fraudulent website. Just more fascism, bullying and thuggery on the part of the medical-industrial complex.

And for what purpose except $$$$$$....and CONTROL.

[proffett]

More on Stephen Barrett, The Quackpot of Quackwatch.com



Stephen Barrett - Professional Crackpot...

The Internet needs health information it can trust. Stephen Barrett doesn't provide it...

Barrett is one of those people whose ambitions and opinions of himself far exceeds his abilities. Without ANY qualifications he has set himself up as an expert in just about everything having to do with health care - and more.

And this from a man who is a professional failure.

Records show that Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession. His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable. He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."

The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago, for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified." Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.

Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.

In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment. He was in his mid-50s at the time. He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.

It is obvious, that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations, turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.

It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.

And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."

Bitterness against successful health professionals is Barrett's hallmark. To him they're all "quacks." In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian.

Barrett, in his writings, says the same things, the same way, every time - change the victim and the subject, and still you yawn your way through his offerings. It's like he's filling out a form somebody gave him...

Take an overactive self importance, couple it with glaring failure and rejection in his chosen profession, add a cup of molten hatred for those that do succeed, pop it in the oven - and out comes Stephen Barrett - self-styled "expert in everything."

Barrett, we know, along with his website, is currently named, among other things, in a racketeering (RICO) case in Federal Court in Colorado.

He's also being sued for his nefarious activities in Ontario, Canada.

Barrett, in the Canadian case, has formally admitted, according to Canadian law, to a number of situations put to him by the Plaintiff, including:

"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."

"Barrett has interfered with the civil rights of numerous Americans, in his efforts to have his critics silenced."

"Barrett has strategically orchestrated the filing of legal actions in improper jurisdictions for the purpose of frustrating the victims of such lawsuits and increasing his victims costs."

"Barrett failed the exams he was required to pass to become a Board Certified Medical Doctor."


And this...




"Quackbusting" - is a Profitable Business...

Frankly, "quackbusting" is a profitable industry, and Stephen Barrett plays it to the hilt.

In a Canadian lawsuit (see below) Barrett admitted to the following:

"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."

Stephen Barrett testifies for money. He claims he's an "expert" in virtually everything. Those "expert witness" fees seem to be a significant part of Barrett's existence.

In a California Court case, former Barrett peer, and fellow Board Member of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF), William Jarvis PhD, testified, under oath, that Stephen Barrett and Robert Baratz conspired to use the NCAHF, without Board permission, as a Plaintiff in over 40 cases in California, where Barrett and Baratz were to testify as "expert witnesses," and get expert witness fees. The NCAHF Board was never consulted.

However, sometimes their plans fail.

One of those cases caused the NCAHF to be saddled with over $100,000 in legal fees awarded their victim - and the NCAHF doesn't have the money to pay that debt. In fact, the NCAHF is SO DESPERATE for funds it is being run out of a cardboard box in the back room of Robert Baratz's Braintree, Massachusetts hair removal and ear piercing salon.

Those type of cases Barrett involved the NCAHF in were considered so heinous that the people of California just passed an initiative (Proposition #64) banning this kind of lawsuit for all time.

Barrett's claim to be a Consumer Advocate is an insult to American consumers.

Organized Stupidity is the Hallmark of the Quackbuster Conspiracy...

Barrett, and his vacuous minions, like to spout off other stupid "rules" that they think should apply to health care - the application of which, has to make the scientific community shudder.

One of the other totally BRAINLESS statements Barrett, and his parrotts, like to to screech out is "It hasn't been double-blind studied!!"

The "double-blind study" is one of about 45 different kinds of scientific studies used, and approved for use, within the scientific community. It was designed for, and is usually restricted to, testing new dangerous drugs for the claims drug companies wish to make about their new laboratory produced products. Generally, in this type of study, you give half of the group the new pill, and the other half gets a sugar pill that looks just like the original. This type of study simply does not apply to new research. Never has, never will.

And worse, the "double-blind study" is considered to be heinous, and was banned by world government during the Helsinki Accord in 1964.

There's a lot more...

Barrett's Funding - TOP SECRET...

Barrett was cornered in a Federal case in the State of Oregon not long ago, and asked about his income. He testified that over the past two years he made a TOTAL of $54,000.

How then does he afford to carry on fourteen (14) separate legal actions at one time?

If each legal action cost him $100,000, that would come to 1.4 million dollars ($1,400,000).

How do you squeeze 1.4 million out of a $54,000 total income?

Good question...

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm

Above by Tim Bolen, consumer advocate and founder of the Bolen Report. An honest hardworking man of integrity fighting for the PEOPLE unlike Barrett of Quackwatch.

About sources author, Tim Bolen:



Tim Bolen...

Tim Bolen is a Crisis Management Consultant, and a Health Advocate, in the Health Care Industry. He's been in one form of Crisis Management, or another, since 1966. His hobbies, besides mountain hiking, and woodworking, are "war" and the tools and history of war.

His company, JuriMed - Public Relations & Research Group's business card says "Strategies for Government Besieged Health Professionals."

Bolen, in his Crisis Management role, specializes in the problems of cutting-edge health professionals.

In North America, innovation in health care is discouraged, and outright attacked, by the status quo. Bolen feels that this is a bad thing, and does something about it.

In his role as a Consumer Advocate he tirelessly examines the reasons why the North American Health systems are so poor, compared to other areas of the world - explains those reasons to the readers of his popular "Millions of Health Freedom Fighters - Newsletter," and suggests solutions.

Sometimes he just details what the powerful North American Health Freedom Movement, and others, are doing.

Bolen is the nemesis of the now failing "quackbuster" operation, and seems to take delight in frustrating their aims and humiliating their leadership. The "quackbusters," we know, were originally organized, and funded, by the pharmaceutical industry. But that original operation, Bolen believes, has fallen, because of losses in Court and other humiliations, on hard times and has been replaced by one run directly out of a New York ad agency.

Bolen has been invited to testify in both State and Federal Courts, and is considered by many to be an expert in the politics of health care in North America. He can be reached anytime at jurimed2@earthlink.net and jurimed@yahoo.com (use both).

[lycanox]

Sure, attack the source, but not the information. Which is well backed by official instantiations.

Like your sources from so called doctors which claim that just because they are a chiropractor, which doesn't involve knowledge off the immune system and vaccinations at all. Outright vaccination Hate sites that accuse the WHO and every other organization of attempting genocide. And continually recite information that is simply false.

But here is the WHO on the matter. Which are the world wide experts if it comes to public health.


Effectiveness and safety

All vaccines used for routine immunization are very effective in preventing disease, although no vaccine attains 100% effectiveness. More than one dose of a vaccine is generally given to increase the chance of developing immunity.

Vaccines are very safe, and side effects are minor ─ especially when compared to the diseases they are designed to prevent. Serious complications occur rarely. For example, severe allergic reactions result at a rate of one for every 100 000 doses of measles vaccine. Two to four cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio have been reported for every one million children receiving oral polio vaccine.
The cost-effectiveness of immunization

Immunization is considered among the most cost-effective of health investments. There is a well-defined target group; contact with the health system is only needed at the time of delivery; and vaccination does not require any major change of lifestyle.

A recent study estimated that a one-week "supplemental immunization activity" against measles carried out in Kenya in 2002 ─ in which 12.8 million children were vaccinated — would result in a net saving in health costs of US$ 12 million over the following ten years; during that time it would prevent 3 850 000 cases of measles and 125 000 deaths. In the United States, cost-benefit analysis indicate that every dollar invested in a vaccine dose saves US$ 2 to US$ 27 in health expenses.

Source. (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs288/en/index.html)



The general risks of vaccines

No vaccine is "perfect" — that is, no vaccine provides full protection against its target disease for every person who receives it and no vaccine is completely risk-free for every person who receives it. Experience has shown that most "adverse events" are not actually caused by vaccines; the majority are coincidental (occur at the same time but are not related), while others are related to preventable errors in the storage, handling, or administration of vaccines.

While vaccines can cause reactions, these tend to be minor, such as a sore arm, redness or minor swelling at the injection site, or low-grade fever. Extremely rarely, there are more serious consequences. For example, anaphylaxis (immediate, severe allergic reaction leading to shock) has been noted at a rate one per 1 million persons receiving measles vaccine and vaccine-associated paralytic polio occur in approximately 1 in 2.5 million Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) doses administered, The risk of these more serious reactions must always be weighed against the major benefits of protecting large numbers of people against serious and even life-threatening diseases.

Periodically, concerns about vaccine safety are raised that later prove to be unfounded. For example, there is no valid evidence of a causal link between measles vaccine and autism, a topic that has been extensively reviewed by the Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety and several other expert bodies. Similarly, no valid evidence has been found to support an alleged link between whole-cell pertussis vaccine and brain damage, or hepatitis B vaccine and leukaemia or multiple sclerosis.

Source. (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs295/en/index.html)


Measles mortality reduction: a successful initiative

WHO/J. Vandelaer

Measles deaths worldwide fell by 74% between 2000 and 2007, from an estimated 750 000 to 197 000. In addition, the Eastern Mediterranean region has cut measles deaths by a remarkable 90% — from an estimated 96 000 to 10 000 — during the same period, thus achieving the United Nations goal to reduce measles deaths by 90% by 2010, three years early.

The significant decline in measles deaths in the Eastern Mediterranean region was the result of intensified vaccination campaigns including in countries with hard-to-reach areas such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and the Sudan. In 2007, more than twice the number of children were immunized in the region through such campaigns as compared to 2006.

Continued progress depends on ensuring that all children receive two doses of measles vaccine including one dose by their first birthday, strengthening disease surveillance systems, and providing effective treatment for measles.

Source
(http://www.who.int/immunization/newsroom/measles/en/index.html)

[proffett]

Yet, getting influenza DOES render you 100% immune to it next time around... Sounds to me like getting sick now and then, without detrimental side effects is a better option.

I've looked at this from all angles and I am still 100% against vaccines. I'm not a hater, I don't use fear mongering techniques, nor do I support the idea that immunizations have a genocidal agenda. I am just a mother who believes that good hygiene, staying active, ingesting a well balanced diet and nurturing the spirit will support and enhance the immune system better than any miracle concoction in a vial.

[lycanox]

Yet, getting influenza DOES render you 100% immune to it next time around... Sounds to me like getting sick now and then, without detrimental side effects is a better option.
Which is exactly the principle behind vaccinations.


I've looked at this from all angles and I am still 100% against vaccines. I'm not a hater, I don't use fear mongering techniques, nor do I support the idea that immunizations have a genocidal agenda. I am just a mother who believes that good hygiene, staying active, ingesting a well balanced diet and nurturing the spirit will support and enhance the immune system better than any miracle concoction in a vial.
That is your choice. And mine is different.

But our concern about health is the same.

[proffett]

Which is exactly the principle behind vaccinations.

Except that according to your source, the WHO, vaccines are not 100% effective. Whereas having a dis-ease and recovering from it IS a 100% guarantee that your immune system will not allow you to get that dis-ease again. Why vaccinate and run the risk of ANY side effects, as small a risk it may be when nature provides her own protection?

It is, in my mind, much safer and more effective to practice all around well being, regulated by diet, exercise, spirituality and hygiene than to inject oneself with a dis-ease (live or not) that can cause serious and sometimes fatal consequences.

Perhaps some will die from getting a dis-ease, but those who don't live longer and healthier and will produce a new generation of healthier children to be ready for the next epidemic. I would much rather take my chances with coming down with a serious ailment than to vaccinate myself or my family.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, only as I see it, I didn't purposefully allow chemicals, contaminants and a virus into my body...



That is your choice. And mine is different.

But our concern about health is the same.

Certainly, just don't slander the naturopaths around here by naming us as cruel, ignorant, conspiracy theorists. Many of us have researched this topic until our eyes bleed and have come to this conclusion after days, weeks and even years of struggling with it. We are outcasts who go against the status quo, but yes, our goal is the health and well being of all humanity, beginning in our own homes.

[elkia]

Yet, getting influenza DOES render you 100% immune to it next time around... Sounds to me like getting sick now and then, without detrimental side effects is a better option.

I've looked at this from all angles and I am still 100% against vaccines. I'm not a hater, I don't use fear mongering techniques, nor do I support the idea that immunizations have a genocidal agenda. I am just a mother who believes that good hygiene, staying active, ingesting a well balanced diet and nurturing the spirit will support and enhance the immune system better than any miracle concoction in a vial.

Very well said, I completly agree...

[lycanox]

Except that according to your source, the WHO, vaccines are not 100% effective. Whereas having a dis-ease and recovering from it IS a 100% guarantee that your immune system will not allow you to get that dis-ease again. Why vaccinate and run the risk of ANY side effects, as small a risk it may be when nature provides her own protection?
You are forgetting about antigen drift. Which slowly changes the virus so it becomes less recognizable to the body. Which Influenza is very keen to do.

There is currently no way to avoid this problem. Regardless what the source of immunization is. And it is the sole reason why the flue comes back each year.


It is, in my mind, much safer and more effective to practice all around well being, regulated by diet, exercise, spirituality and hygiene than to inject oneself with a dis-ease (live or not) that can cause serious and sometimes fatal consequences.

Perhaps some will die from getting a dis-ease, but those who don't live longer and healthier and will produce a new generation of healthier children to be ready for the next epidemic. I would much rather take my chances with coming down with a serious ailment than to vaccinate myself or my family.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, only as I see it, I didn't purposefully allow chemicals, contaminants and a virus into my body...The problem is that the world is simply not sterile. And that even the most healthy person can get sick and die in the correct circumstances.

[proffett]

You are forgetting about antigen drift. Which slowly changes the virus so it becomes less recognizable to the body. Which Influenza is very keen to do.


I most certainly am not forgetting antigenic drift. Actually, this point is more in favor of not vaccinating. Why? Because influenza's virus genetic makeup is of RNA, which is more prone to mutation than DNA genes. Thus, if you are vaccinated for influenza A and it mutates, you're ass out, because the if the HA gene changes, so can the antigen that it encodes, causing it to change shape. If the HA antigen changes shape, antibodies that normally would match up to it no longer can, allowing the newly mutated virus to infect the body’s cells.

So what, a person has now been vaccinated with a compound that didn't do anything at all. This person took a chance of getting ill from the vaccine or having an allergic reaction for nothing. Not to mention allowing themselves to be inoculated with various other substances that are not naturally found in the body, some of which can be toxic.


There is currently no way to avoid this problem. Regardless what the source of immunization is. And it is the sole reason why the flue comes back each year.

And the Flu vaccine is a crap shoot at best!! So why not just take your chances of getting sick rather than getting a vaccine filled with garbage that may not even do anything at all.


The problem is that the world is simply not sterile. And that even the most healthy person can get sick and die in the correct circumstances.

Not to sound utterly harsh here, but the world may be a better place with fewer people... What happens when we reach a breaking point in population vs resources? What if we have reached critical mass? Shouldn't we allow nature to do it's part in this build in control mechanism we call evolution, the strong survive to produce stronger, healthier stock, the weak and frail parish...

[lycanox]

[QUOTE]I most certainly am not forgetting antigenic drift. Actually, this point is more in favor of not vaccinating. Why? Because influenza's virus genetic makeup is of RNA, which is more prone to mutation than DNA genes. Thus, if you are vaccinated for influenza A and it mutates, you're ass out, because the if the HA gene changes, so can the antigen that it encodes, causing it to change shape. If the HA antigen changes shape, antibodies that normally would match up to it no longer can, allowing the newly mutated virus to infect the body’s cells.

So what, a person has now been vaccinated with a compound that didn't do anything at all. This person took a chance of getting ill from the vaccine or having an allergic reaction for nothing. Not to mention allowing themselves to be inoculated with various other substances that are not naturally found in the body, some of which can be toxic.
Which like I said, counts for any form of immunization. Either by vaccine or natural contact.

Each year a person has to choose about facing the dangers of getting sick. (Which is dangerous for old people and weakened people.) And the dangers of the vaccine. Which only causes severe side effects on rare occasions.



And the Flu vaccine is a crap shoot at best!! So why not just take your chances of getting sick rather than getting a vaccine filled with garbage that may not even do anything at all.
Two reasons.

One, facing the decease is for certain population groups a dangerous endeavor. Don't forget that normal seasonal flue kills a couple of thousand people in the US.

Second. During the peak of the wave. the amount of people getting sick can severely hamper the community. Just think what could happen if half of the fire brigade is sick at home. Or the only few doctors that can do a heart operation and someone needs one asap. Companies may have to close a while because there is to little people to remain active etc.


Not to sound utterly harsh here, but the world may be a better place with fewer people... What happens when we reach a breaking point in population vs resources? What if we have reached critical mass? Shouldn't we allow nature to do it's part in this build in control mechanism we call evolution, the strong survive to produce stronger, healthier stock, the weak and frail parish...Are you going to tell the people that they should stay away from medicines because we are over quota on total population.

[proffett]

Which like I said, counts for any form of immunization. Either by vaccine or natural contact.

Again, this is why vaccines are unnecessary!! You know why immunizations are pushed on us Lycanox? Because they are the backbone of the Pharmaceutical companies and MD's offices!!!


Each year a person has to choose about facing the dangers of getting sick. (Which is dangerous for old people and weakened people.) And the dangers of the vaccine. Which only causes severe side effects on rare occasions.

Same thing as facing getting sick, there are fatalities on occasions.



One, facing the decease is for certain population groups a dangerous endeavor. Don't forget that normal seasonal flue kills a couple of thousand people in the US.

Second. During the peak of the wave. the amount of people getting sick can severely hamper the community. Just think what could happen if half of the fire brigade is sick at home. Or the only few doctors that can do a heart operation and someone needs one asap. Companies may have to close a while because there is to little people to remain active etc.

So natural immunity be damned here! The flu kills, yes. So do car accidents, swimming pools and professional sports. Sometimes bad things happen, but there is NO PROOF the influenza immunization works! I have never had a flu vaccine and I have had the flu two times IN MY LIFE. My parents get the vaccine yearly and get sick with symptoms after the vaccine and get sick at the peak of flu season as well...

Now, if people would wash their hands and stay home and rest Flu would not be the pandemic you are proposing here. It's common sense. But people have forgotten how to heal themselves or how to prevent illness without the magic touch of an MD, a fantastic cure in a vial or a miracle pill.



Are you going to tell the people that they should stay away from medicines because we are over quota on total population.

No, I was presenting a what if scenario. What if we circumvent nature? What if we are playing God? What are you suggesting? If we have the resources and ability to cure death we should? That's pretty selfish. We have to look realistically at sustainability even if it is an uncomfortable topic. Natural selection and evolution are just as important today as they were millions of years ago. Modern medicine does have it's place, don't misunderstand me, but sometimes sickness is a way for nature to improve upon our immune systems and make us stronger for the next round.

[proffett]

More sources citing the ineffectiveness of the influenza vaccine...



Why the Flu Vaccine Doesn't Work
A bit about immunology and biochemistry

By Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D., About.com

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) is looking at whether or not the flu vaccine is effective. Preliminary results indicate you'll get just as sick (with colds, flu, flu-like illnesses) if you got the vaccine than if you didn't. Why doesn't the vaccine work? In order to understand the answer, you'll need to understand some specifics about the flu vaccine and a bit about how immunity works.

Flu Vaccine Facts

There is no single virus that causes the flu; there is no one flu vaccine that protects against all of them. A flu vaccine is designed to confer immunity against the strains of flu that are expected to be most common and most serious. The vaccine is a sort of one-size-fits-all solution, even though there are more types of flu than covered by the vaccine and the flu types vary according to region. It takes time to produce vaccines, so a new vaccine can't be instantly produced when a new type of flu starts to cause problems.

The Vaccine and Immunity

The flu vaccine gives your body parts of inactivated flu viruses. These virus parts correspond to parts of proteins floating around in your body. When the virus part contacts a chemical 'match', it stimulates the body to produce the cells and antibodies that can remove this particular intruder. Antibodies are proteins that float in body fluids and can bind to specific chemical markers. When an antibody binds to a substance, it essentially marks it for destruction by other cells. However, an antibody for one type of flu won't necessarily bind to a virus part from another type of flu. You don't get protection against other viruses. A flu vaccine can only stimulate your immune system to protect you against the viruses in the vaccine, with some lesser protection against very similar ones.

Incomplete Protection Against Intended Targets

You may not even get protection against the intended virus. Why? First, because viruses change over time. The piece that was in the vaccine may not 'look' the same (chemically) as the real thing (months later, after all!). Second, the vaccine may not have given you enough stimulation to fight off the disease.

Let's review what's happened so far: the inactivated virus piece has found a chemical match in your body. This causes an immune response, so your body has started to gear up its production of antibodies and similar markers on cells that can mark the virus for destruction or kill it outright. It's like calling up an army for a battle. Will your body win the fight when the real virus comes to call? Yes, if you have enough defenses built up. However, you will still get the flu if:

* your body isn't fast enough producing a response
o get the vaccine and get exposed to the flu too soon (less than 2 weeks)
o too much time between vaccination and exposure (loses its effectiveness over time)
* you don't produce enough of a response
o overwhelmed by exposure to a high level of the virus
o your body couldn't recognize the initial virus piece (determined by genetics)
o your body didn't make enough antibodies/cells (common in older people or people with suppressed immune systems)
* the virus as changed beyond your body's ability to recognize it
* the part of the virus that was in the vaccine can't be detected by the body in the intact virus

Waste of Time?

Yes and no... the flu vaccine will be more effective some years than others. The CDC predicted that the vaccine developed for the winter of 2003/2004 wasn't going to be effective against most cases of the flu because the strains covered by the vaccine weren't the same as the strains that were common. Highly targeted vaccines work, but only against their targets! There's no point in accepting the risks of a vaccine for a disease you can't get. When the flu vaccine is on-target, it's more effective. Even then, the vaccine isn't perfect because it uses inactivated virus. Is that bad? No. A live vaccine is more effective, but much more risky.

Bottom line: The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from year-to-year. Even in a best-case scenario, it won't always protect against the flu. The CDC study didn't say that the vaccine didn't work; it says the vaccine didn't protect people from getting sick. Even with imperfect effectiveness, the vaccine is indicated for certain people. In my opinion, however, the vaccine isn't for everyone and certainly shouldn't be required for otherwise healthy people.

And from Virginia Hopkins Health Watch




Does the Flu Shot Work?
Why You Probably Don't Need a Flu Shot

A lot of you must have noticed by now that every fall there’s a flu scare—it’s the wrong strain of flu in the vaccination, or it’s a new, more virulent flu, or this year it was a shortage of the flu vaccine. The media eats up the scare value and panicky people stand in line for hours to get their shots.

First, let’s put flu vaccinations in perspective. What’s the worst that could happen if you get the flu? You could die. However, the chances of a healthy, middle-aged adult dying from the flu are astronomically small. There were only 272 flu/pneumonia-related deaths among people ages 5 to 49 between late 1990 and early 1998. During that same time period, about three times more people were struck by lightning. Furthermore, a healthy adult who is vaccinated still has about a 50-50 chance of getting the flu.

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) lumps together mortality (death) statistics for the flu and pneumonia, but even at that, more than 90 percent of flu and pneumonia-related deaths occur in people over the age of 65. Your risk of dying from illness related to the flu rises dramatically as you age—but this is complicated by the fact that most people that age have other underlying conditions, such as diabetes, heart and circulatory diseases, and significantly decreased immune function. Even at that, the estimated number of people over the age of 50 who die from flu-related illness and/or pneumonia each year is around 58, and over the age of 65 the number is about 915. A flu shot reduces the risk of getting the flu in the elderly by 10 to 30 percent, depending on which study you read.

How about kids? Among children in the U.S. age less than one year (the flu shot is not recommended for children under six months) to four years old, there were an estimated 38 pneumonia/influenza-caused deaths reported between late 1990 and early 1998. That’s an average of 4.75 deaths a year.

The very young, the very old and those with compromised immune systems, who supposedly need the flu vaccination the most, are the ones least likely to be able to mount a strong enough antibody response to fight off the flu. In other words, the flu shot is least effective in the populations who need it most.

Now that we can safely assume that your chances of dying of the flu are very small unless you’re among the frail elderly (and even then the flu shot protects you only 10 to 30 percent of the time), what’s really at issue is getting sick. That’s unpleasant and it’s a nuisance. Drink warming herbal teas and soups, stock up on kleenex, and hunker down for a few days. If you want to play the Pollyanna game and find something good in the flu, according to Philip Incao, M.D. there’s nothing like a few days of fever to cleanse the body and upgrade and reinvigorate the immune system.

And by the way, flu season is just getting underway, but so far the CDC reports a “very low” incidence of flu outbreaks.

http://www.virginiahopkinstestkits.com/flushot.html

[lycanox]

Again, this is why vaccines are unnecessary!! You know why immunizations are pushed on us Lycanox? Because they are the backbone of the Pharmaceutical companies and MD's offices!!!
And back with the financial conspiracy again.

Again, people in a weakened condition cant just get the flue like other people can without the nasty side effect of dying.



Same thing as facing getting sick, there are fatalities on occasions.
Except that only a couple of people die due to vaccinations each year.
While a couple of thousand people die of the flue.

The chance of survival is a lot higher with the shot than without.



So natural immunity be damned here! The flu kills, yes. So do car accidents, swimming pools and professional sports. Sometimes bad things happen, but there is NO PROOF the influenza immunization works! I have never had a flu vaccine and I have had the flu two times IN MY LIFE. My parents get the vaccine yearly and get sick with symptoms after the vaccine and get sick at the peak of flu season as well...
And your point is? National statistics paint a different picture.

And claiming that immunization does not work is like claiming that the entire human immune system does not work. As the vaccine uses that system to work.



Now, if people would wash their hands and stay home and rest Flu would not be the pandemic you are proposing here. It's common sense. But people have forgotten how to heal themselves or how to prevent illness without the magic touch of an MD, a fantastic cure in a vial or a miracle pill.

Are you now suggesting that all those people that died of the flue just died because they didn't washed their hands?


No, I was presenting a what if scenario. What if we circumvent nature? What if we are playing God? What are you suggesting? If we have the resources and ability to cure death we should? That's pretty selfish. We have to look realistically at sustainability even if it is an uncomfortable topic. Natural selection and evolution are just as important today as they were millions of years ago. Modern medicine does have it's place, don't misunderstand me, but sometimes sickness is a way for nature to improve upon our immune systems and make us stronger for the next round.
Do you dare to explain that to the families of the victims?

And medicine use is not unfamiliar in nature. Lots of animals are aware of antiseptic plants and tricks.


More sources citing the ineffectiveness of the influenza vaccine...



And from Virginia Hopkins Health Watch



http://www.virginiahopkinstestkits.com/flushot.html


And a rebuttal from the CDC.

How effective is the flu vaccine?


How well the flu vaccine works depends on how well the match is between the influenza (flu) vaccine and the types of flu viruses that are circulating that year. Scientists try to predict what strains (types) of flu viruses are most likely to spread and cause illness each year to put into the vaccine. In years when the vaccine strains and the virus strains are well-matched, the vaccine can reduce the chances of getting the flu by 70%-90% in healthy adults. The vaccine may be somewhat less effective in elderly persons and very young children, but vaccination can still prevent serious complications from the flu.

How effective is the flu vaccine in the elderly?

Among elderly persons not living in chronic-care facilities (such as nursing homes) and those persons with long-term (chronic) medical conditions (such as asthma, diabetes, or heart disease), the flu shot is 30%-70% effective in preventing hospitalization for pneumonia (a lung infection) and influenza. Among elderly nursing home residents, the flu shot is most effective in preventing severe illness, complications that may follow flu (like pneumonia), and deaths related to the flu. In this population, the shot can be 50%-60% effective in preventing hospitalization or pneumonia, and 80% effective in preventing death from the flu.

Because persons aged 65 years and older are at high risk for serious complications from the flu, it also is important that people who live with or care for those at high risk for serious complications get a flu vaccination.
How effective is the flu vaccine in children?

Because children less than 5 years of age are at increased risk of severe flu illnesses, children 6-59 months and the household contacts and caregivers of children 0-59 months are recommended to get the flu vaccine every year. Children less than 6 months of age are most at risk for having complications from flu. However, they are too young to get the flu vaccine. To protect these infants, it is very important that their household members and out-of-home caregivers be vaccinated against the flu.

The flu vaccine can prevent 66% or more influenza infections in young children, with even higher estimates for older children, when the vaccine strains are well-matched to the flu viruses causing illness. Vaccinating close contacts of children can also help decrease children’s risk of getting the flu.

Source (Center of Decease Control). (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm)

[uki]

(NaturalNews) A warning letter about the swine flu vaccine was leaked to the DailyMail over the weekend. Written by Professor Elizabeth Miller, head of the Health Protection Agency's Immunization Department, it warns neurologists that the influenza vaccine of 1976 was linked to a devastating neurological condition called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS). "The vaccines used to combat an expected swine influenza pandemic in 1976 were shown to be associated with GBS and were withdrawn from use," says the July 29 letter.

GBS can cause paralysis and death. One woman mentioned in the DailyMail story -- Hilary Wilkinson -- was stricken with GBS and had to be fed through a drip while needing a tracheotomy just to breathe. It took her three months in the hospital to learn how to walk and talk again. On the topic of the swine flu vaccine, she says today, "It makes me feel wary that the Government is rolling out this vaccine without any clear idea of the GBS risk, if any. I wouldn't wish it on anyone... I'm frightened to have the swine flu vaccine if this might happen again -- it's a frightening illness and I think more research needs to be done on the effect of the vaccine."



An 800 percent increase in GBS risk
A second letter has also surfaced with a warning about the swine flu vaccine. It's from the Association of British Neurologists and is authored by Dr. Rustam Al-Shahi Salman and Professor Patrick Chinnery. It says "Following the 1976 program of vaccination against swine influenza in the US, a retrospective study found a possible eight-fold increase in the incidence of GBS."

Adding to the concern, Dr. Tom Jefferson from the Cochrane Collaboration is on the record saying "New vaccines never behave in the way you expect them to. It may be that there is a link to GBS, which is certainly not something I would wish on anybody. But it could end up being anything because one of the additives in one of the vaccines is a substance called squalene, and none of the studies we've extracted have any research on it at all."


http://www.naturalnews.com/026866_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.htm l

i can't wait to step on up and get my shots... :vbroll:

and yes lycanox... vaccinations are all about money and nothing else.

[lycanox]

And the rebuttal from the WHO and CDC.


Over 5.4 million doses of tetravalent conjugated meningococcal vaccine were distributed in the United States since its introduction in 2005 through September 2006. During this time 17 cases of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) were reported among vaccinated persons. Analysis of these data suggests that there may be a small increased risk of GBS associated with vaccination (1.25 cases per million doses distributed [95%CI 0.058-5.993]), although there is substantial uncertaintly regarding this risk estimate (MMWR 55(41),2006 link see below). US authorities are continuing to monitor the situation and have not recommended changes to vaccination policy.

Source (WHO) (http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/meningococcal/GBS/en/index.html)

[proffett]

Check this shit out. Kids as guinea pigs. The parents who signed their babies up for this should be charged with at least child endangerment.




Kids roll up sleeves for H1N1 clinical trial
FREDERICK, Maryland (CNN) -- Andrew Stein, 10, and his brother, Nathan, 7, are having a typical end-of-summer vacation: hanging out at the pool, visiting their grandparents and waiting for the beginning of school.
Nathan Stein, 7, said getting some shots was worth it to help other kids.

But this week they're doing something most of their classmates will never do. The Stein brothers will be testing the new vaccine to prevent swine flu.

Because the younger population, from 6 months to 24 years, is at high risk of developing complications from the H1N1 virus, the National Institutes of Health is conducting a clinical trial specifically to make sure the vaccine is safe for children. Vaccine developers hope to get the doses out by mid-October, before the flu season really shifts into high gear.

Although both boys dislike needles, they are willing to make the sacrifice. "One boy that I knew at our school died from a type of the flu," said Andrew, frowning. "So I wanted to prevent that as much as I could."

The boys, who live in the suburbs between Baltimore, Maryland, and Washington, got their first inoculations at the vaccine satellite office in Frederick, Maryland. The trial is being conducted by the University of Maryland School of Medicine, one of 11 institutions across the country holding pediatric trials. Researchers will test the boys' blood, have them keep journals and make sure they have no severe reactions after each vaccine.

The pediatric studies are divided into two groups within the United States. Half the sites will be comparing reactions between the H1N1 shot and the seasonal influenza vaccines on kids; the others will be looking at the effectiveness of a two-dose vaccine. The Steins are enrolled in the dosage trial.

The data are crucial for developing a safe vaccine, said Dr. Karen Kotloff, who heads both the pediatric and adult trials at Maryland. "The purpose of the studies we are doing is to try to collect information that will help to inform policymakers about the best way to give the pandemic H1N1 flu vaccine," she said. "Whether we need one or two doses and what strength we need."

Before they received their shots, both boys, along with their parents, Christy and Eric Stein, got an explanation of the procedure and were warned about possible complications. Nancy Wymer, who coordinates the study, says the boys will receive two inoculations over six weeks and will continue to check in periodically over the following six months.Video Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports on the H1N1 clinical trial »

Neither brother gave more than a grimace as he rolled up his sleeve and took a shot for science. Andrew Stein said it was no big deal. "It was in and out, in a couple of seconds."

Why would parents have their children be part of such a trial? Most say to help other children. Christy Stein was involved in a pediatric trial for the swine flu vaccine in 1976 and understands what her sons are going through. But she also believes it's good for the country's public health. "I trust the people who are running the study," she said. "And I'm not concerned about it at all."

The studies are based on other influenza trials in the past. Many parents have already volunteered their children but openings still exist. Children 6 months to 35 months are needed, Kotloff said. "Like with any shot, children may have a sore arm. Your arm can be red...There might be some fever or achiness, but the symptoms go away in a couple of days.

"There can be allergic reactions, mostly rashes, but in some rare circumstances there can be severe allergic reactions," she added. "Each volunteer is informed about these possibilities, so it's up to the parents to make that choice."

The 11 main sites across the U.S, in nine states, are currently recruiting children for the vaccine trials. The two-dose vaccine tests are being conducted at the University of Maryland Baltimore; Duke University in Durham, North Carolina; Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri; Children's Hospital and Regional Medical Center in Seattle, Washington; and Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee.

And the trial comparing H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccines is at Hope Clinic, Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia; St. Louis University in Missouri; the University of Iowa in Iowa City; Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati, Ohio; Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas; and the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston.

Each location has a Web site to sign up if more children are needed.
advertisement

Andrew and Nathan are doing fine. They will keep a diary on how they feel and what, if any, reactions they have. Each was rewarded with a $40 gift card for his trouble. And even after being stuck with a couple of needles, Nathan Stein says it was worth it.

"Not just for the gift card," he said, "but for being able to help other kids."



Lycanox, I am finished arguing with you. I have my statistics from independent expert analysis and maternal instincts to back me up. You have a government agency and the Pharmaceutical companies.. I wonder which is more geared toward the overall health and well being of the world..

I will also have a personal interview with Tim Bolen, on "The Politics of Health, Money vs Wellbeing" featuring questions asked by the members here. A thread about this will follow in the next few days.


AND YOURE DAMN RIGHT IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY... EVERYTHING IS!!!! Even these little kids who their parents have pimped out to the Big Pharma got a monetary reward for their "efforts". Starting them early with the "do anything for money" ploy...Hope their shopping spree can make up for any unwanted side effects or fatalities that may occur.

[lycanox]

Check this shit out. Kids as guinea pigs. The parents who signed their babies up for this should be charged with at least child endangerment.
It is common practice. How else do you expect them to do the final test for children. Using midgets? Or do you want them to marked untested vaccines.

Besides, by the time they even begin human testing, vaccines have to pass a long and intensive animal test round. Its not for nothing that these so called horrible side effects only occur in very rare instances. If they were common, they would have been detected very early on.



Lycanox, I am finished arguing with you. I have my statistics from independent expert analysis and maternal instincts to back me up. You have a government agency and the Pharmaceutical companies.. I wonder which is more geared toward the overall health and well being of the world..

The Leading International Health organization from the UN is a hell better source than the arguments of some independent researches.





I will also have a personal interview with Tim Bolen, on "The Politics of Health, Money vs Wellbeing" featuring questions asked by the members here. A thread about this will follow in the next few days.


AND YOURE DAMN RIGHT IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY... EVERYTHING IS!!!! Even these little kids who their parents have pimped out to the Big Pharma got a monetary reward for their "efforts". Starting them early with the "do anything for money" ploy...Hope their shopping spree can make up for any unwanted side effects or fatalities that may occur.
Sigh, the money conspiracy again.
Fact, remains that vaccinations work and are an if not most important part of our medical arsenal. All the complains about money wont change that.

Besides, developing a good medicine and testing it for all those nasty things people complain about does cost money, a lot of money. You cant expect perfect work to cost nothing.

[James Random]

Lycanox has no idea what he's talking about. He's jut read it in a book and thinks it must be true. I would love to see what he makes of Alice in Wonderland.

The fact is that vaccines interfered with the immune system. Now the immune system is more than just antibocies, it's the whole body. From your brain to your blood. It's been proven that people with positive thinking have reversed various diseases in the past even though little research has been done into why.

Vaccines work on a faulty premise. they intricately stimulate the human system to create conditions for immunity from disease. This is ass backwards. They SHOULD stimulate the system to create antibodies which indirectly defend against disease.


It's also been known, in fact common, that people get the disease they were vaccinated for anyway. But for some reason nobody has ever looked at the vaccines. Why? Well, why should they need to? The Vaccines are infallible, right? Nobody ever bothers to examine the vaccine itself in the follow up because nobody has ever thought that they had to.

In England, when we had the smallpox, there were cities where there was no smallpox but nobody had been vaccinated. And conversely, smallpox arrived in cities where people had already been vaccinated anyway even though the smallpox had already been on the decline before the vaccine was introduced.

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the Polio vaccine. Remember when SV40 got into it?[1] Why did SV40 get into it? Because the Polio vaccine had been made using monkey's kidneys and so instead of getting polio the people who got vaccinated got SV40 instead. Great huh? Was this due to lack of knowledge or careless error? I'd say careless error. The kidneys should have been tested for disease themselves before being put into the vaccine. Strike 1.

The polio vaccine again popped up again sometime later when some scientists found the so called 'acanthamoeba' in it. A brain eating virus. Strike 2.

Take a wind back to the british MD who uncovered the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. He got fired from his job for finding said link. Now, why would that be do you think? Hm? Surely the medical profession would be patting him on the back? 'Good job old son. You saved many people lots of grief by finding that the vaccine was faulty!'
But no. No congratulations, no thanks. Just fired. Strike 3

What about when the Avian flu vaccine actually had Avian flu in it? Oops! Good job someone re-tested it before giving it to more people than they did! Thanks Baxter Internation for a great job on that vaccine (not). Strike 4.

What about the paracetamol that had AIDS in it? Hm? OOPS! Baxter International did another funny. Strike 5.

And what is the overall damaged caused? Well...nobody really knows. Because very little testing is done. Doctors automatically seem to assume that people do not come down with the diseases they're supposed to be protected from. It's circular reasoning that admits no fault. If someone gets hapatitis even after having the vaccine nobody ever assumes that the vaccine may have been at fault.

5 strikes and you lose lycanox. Vaccines are more dangerous than pharma will let on and they know it. They're out to make money and that's all it is.

Now fuck off.





[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV40

[lycanox]

Lycanox has no idea what he's talking about. He's jut read it in a book and thinks it must be true. I would love to see what he makes of Alice in Wonderland.

At least I studied real medical literature. Instead of plucking bits of information out of scaremongering conspiracy websites like you do.


The fact is that vaccines interfered with the immune system. Now the immune system is more than just antibocies, it's the whole body. From your brain to your blood. It's been proven that people with positive thinking have reversed various diseases in the past even though little research has been done into why.
The other 9.999999999% percent of the body has relied on its immune system do. And that other 1 percent probably influenced their immune system in a positive way.

There is no miracle wonder system that saves you when you think positive.



Vaccines work on a faulty premise. they intricately stimulate the human system to create conditions for immunity from disease. This is ass backwards. They SHOULD stimulate the system to create antibodies which indirectly defend against disease.
Which is exactly what happens in the human body when vaccinated.



It's also been known, in fact common, that people get the disease they were vaccinated for anyway. But for some reason nobody has ever looked at the vaccines. Why? Well, why should they need to? The Vaccines are infallible, right? Nobody ever bothers to examine the vaccine itself in the follow up because nobody has ever thought that they had to.
No cure has a 100% reliability. And the people that did got the decease anyway are far in the majority.


In England, when we had the smallpox, there were cities where there was no smallpox but nobody had been vaccinated. And conversely, smallpox arrived in cities where people had already been vaccinated anyway even though the smallpox had already been on the decline before the vaccine was introduced.

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the Polio vaccine. Remember when SV40 got into it?[1] Why did SV40 get into it? Because the Polio vaccine had been made using monkey's kidneys and so instead of getting polio the people who got vaccinated got SV40 instead. Great huh? Was this due to lack of knowledge or careless error? I'd say careless error. The kidneys should have been tested for disease themselves before being put into the vaccine. Strike 1.

The polio vaccine again popped up again sometime later when some scientists found the so called 'acanthamoeba' in it. A brain eating virus. Strike 2.

Take a wind back to the british MD who uncovered the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. He got fired from his job for finding said link. Now, why would that be do you think? Hm? Surely the medical profession would be patting him on the back? 'Good job old son. You saved many people lots of grief by finding that the vaccine was faulty!'
But no. No congratulations, no thanks. Just fired. Strike 3

What about when the Avian flu vaccine actually had Avian flu in it? Oops! Good job someone re-tested it before giving it to more people than they did! Thanks Baxter Internation for a great job on that vaccine (not). Strike 4.

What about the paracetamol that had AIDS in it? Hm? OOPS! Baxter International did another funny. Strike 5.

And what is the overall damaged caused? Well...nobody really knows. Because very little testing is done. Doctors automatically seem to assume that people do not come down with the diseases they're supposed to be protected from. It's circular reasoning that admits no fault. If someone gets hapatitis even after having the vaccine nobody ever assumes that the vaccine may have been at fault.
Vaccines are very througougly tested. If they test the theoretical testings and the animal testings. They have to pass control groups ranging in the thousands of people of various population groups.

If eventually something is found outside the tests.
It is either is incredibly rare. Or a mistake in preparation.



5 strikes and you lose lycanox. Vaccines are more dangerous than pharma will let on and they know it. They're out to make money and that's all it is.

Now fuck off.
Retarded logic. The food industry kills far more people with accidental infections and poisoning. Yet nobody complaints about people eating eggs, hamburgers and other risk foods.

Besides, If we take those measly 5 points of yours and compare it to the points of all the deceases being decimated in the west. And all the lives being saved by vaccination. They are nothing.

So why don't you fuck off.

[James Random]

So why don't you fuck off.


WOOT! I got him to flame me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On another note.

You own reasoning is retarded. It's a droning repetitive monologue of ignorance and stupidity. Sure you studied real literature, but what's to say that literature is correct? And no, i wasn't quoting what I read on some conspiracy website, I was quoting what I actually know about vaccines from the NEWS reports of the past.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicineCuttingEdge/story?id=5720092&page=1

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/02/11/35139.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf2u7j9FeVI

http://www.sv40foundation.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

In 1998, the National Cancer Institute undertook a large study, using cancer case information from the Institutes SEER database. The published findings from the study revealed that there was no increased incidence of cancer in persons who may have received vaccine containing SV40


http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/1989/aug/aug1989g.htm

Herbert Ratner, M.D., former director of public health in Oak Park, Illinois, and associate clinical professor of preventive medicine and public health at Stritch School of Medicine in Chicago, makes the following analogy between poliomyelitis and infectious hepatitis: "both diseases were in a state of natural decline when the Salk vaccine was introduced in 1955. Since the wide acceptance of the Salk vaccine was based primarily on the sharp decline in polio incidence, it is important to keep in mind that infectious hepatitis equally declined following the Salk vaccine.

Sorry pal, but you still fail.

[lycanox]

WOOT! I got him to flame me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I merely bounched the ball back.



On another note.

You own reasoning is retarded. It's a droning repetitive monologue of ignorance and stupidity. Sure you studied real literature, but what's to say that literature is correct? And no, i wasn't quoting what I read on some conspiracy website, I was quoting what I actually know about vaccines from the NEWS reports of the past.

And reading news reports are better than an actual education because?



http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicineCuttingEdge/story?id=5720092&page=1

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/02/11/35139.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf2u7j9FeVI

http://www.sv40foundation.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine



http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/1989/aug/aug1989g.htm


Sorry pal, but you still fail.
WHO still pawns sensationalist news reporters and wannabe doctors.


Effectiveness and safety

All vaccines used for routine immunization are very effective in preventing disease, although no vaccine attains 100% effectiveness. More than one dose of a vaccine is generally given to increase the chance of developing immunity.

Vaccines are very safe, and side effects are minor ─ especially when compared to the diseases they are designed to prevent. Serious complications occur rarely. For example, severe allergic reactions result at a rate of one for every 100 000 doses of measles vaccine. Two to four cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio have been reported for every one million children receiving oral polio vaccine.
The cost-effectiveness of immunization

Immunization is considered among the most cost-effective of health investments. There is a well-defined target group; contact with the health system is only needed at the time of delivery; and vaccination does not require any major change of lifestyle.

A recent study estimated that a one-week "supplemental immunization activity" against measles carried out in Kenya in 2002 ─ in which 12.8 million children were vaccinated — would result in a net saving in health costs of US$ 12 million over the following ten years; during that time it would prevent 3 850 000 cases of measles and 125 000 deaths. In the United States, cost-benefit analysis indicate that every dollar invested in a vaccine dose saves US$ 2 to US$ 27 in health expenses.

Source. (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs288/en/index.html)



The general risks of vaccines

No vaccine is "perfect" — that is, no vaccine provides full protection against its target disease for every person who receives it and no vaccine is completely risk-free for every person who receives it. Experience has shown that most "adverse events" are not actually caused by vaccines; the majority are coincidental (occur at the same time but are not related), while others are related to preventable errors in the storage, handling, or administration of vaccines.

While vaccines can cause reactions, these tend to be minor, such as a sore arm, redness or minor swelling at the injection site, or low-grade fever. Extremely rarely, there are more serious consequences. For example, anaphylaxis (immediate, severe allergic reaction leading to shock) has been noted at a rate one per 1 million persons receiving measles vaccine and vaccine-associated paralytic polio occur in approximately 1 in 2.5 million Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) doses administered, The risk of these more serious reactions must always be weighed against the major benefits of protecting large numbers of people against serious and even life-threatening diseases.

Periodically, concerns about vaccine safety are raised that later prove to be unfounded. For example, there is no valid evidence of a causal link between measles vaccine and autism, a topic that has been extensively reviewed by the Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety and several other expert bodies. Similarly, no valid evidence has been found to support an alleged link between whole-cell pertussis vaccine and brain damage, or hepatitis B vaccine and leukaemia or multiple sclerosis.

Source. (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs295/en/index.html)


Measles mortality reduction: a successful initiative

WHO/J. Vandelaer

Measles deaths worldwide fell by 74% between 2000 and 2007, from an estimated 750 000 to 197 000. In addition, the Eastern Mediterranean region has cut measles deaths by a remarkable 90% — from an estimated 96 000 to 10 000 — during the same period, thus achieving the United Nations goal to reduce measles deaths by 90% by 2010, three years early.

The significant decline in measles deaths in the Eastern Mediterranean region was the result of intensified vaccination campaigns including in countries with hard-to-reach areas such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and the Sudan. In 2007, more than twice the number of children were immunized in the region through such campaigns as compared to 2006.

Continued progress depends on ensuring that all children receive two doses of measles vaccine including one dose by their first birthday, strengthening disease surveillance systems, and providing effective treatment for measles.

Source
(http://www.who.int/immunization/newsroom/measles/en/index.html)

[olddragon]

WHO predicts 'explosion' of swine flu cases (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gGBK5q0LgRNjBQCvYaHi4SlH0RwgD9A75RKG0)


BEIJING — The global spread of swine flu will endanger more lives as it speeds up in coming months and governments must boost preparations for a swift response, the World Health Organization said Friday.

There will soon be a period of further global spread of the virus, and most countries may see swine flu cases double every three to four days for several months until peak transmission is reached, said WHO's Western Pacific director, Shin Young-soo.

"At a certain point, there will seem to be an explosion in case numbers," Shin told a symposium of health officials and experts in Beijing.
"It is certain there will be more cases and more deaths."
:nukilation:

WHO earlier estimated that as many as 2 billion people could become infected over the next two years — nearly one-third of the world's population.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/3ds.gifhttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/smilies-7.gif ::)): http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/hoppingmad.gif http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/getsmileyCAERRRWJ.gif http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/715io12.gif

"Developing countries like us, we have to fight this war without vaccines," said Mya Oo, deputy health minister of Myanmar. He urged pharmaceutical companies to consider selling the vaccines to developing countries at just above cost.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gif http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/smilie-banana12.gifhttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/smilie-banana12.gifhttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/smilie-banana12.gif

Pregnant women face a higher risk of complications, and the virus also has more severe effects on people with underlying medical conditions such as
asthma, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, autoimmune disorders and diabetes, WHO chief Margaret Chan said in a video address.

The last pandemic — the Hong Kong flu of 1968 — killed about 1 million people. Ordinary flu kills about 250,000 to 500,000 people each year.

Swine flu is also continuing to spread during summer in the northern hemisphere. Normally, flu viruses disappear with warm weather, but swine flu is proving to be resilient.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/crap.gif............................:doh: :noevl:

[olddragon]

Swine Flu Campaign Waits on Vaccine (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337_pf.html)
Only Third of Supply Is Expected for First Round of Vast Effort


Government health officials are mobilizing to launch a massive swine flu vaccination campaign this fall that is unprecedented in its scope
-- and in the potential for complications.

The campaign aims to vaccinate at least half the country's population within months.
Although more people have been inoculated against diseases such as smallpox and polio over a period of years,
the United States has never tried to immunize so many so quickly.

But even as scientists rush to test the vaccine to ensure it is safe and effective, the campaign is lagging.
Officials say only about a third as much vaccine as they had been expecting by mid-October is likely to arrive by then, when a new wave of infections could be peaking.

Among the unknowns: how many shots people will need, what the correct dosage should be, and how to avoid confusing the public with an overlapping effort to combat the regular seasonal flu.

To prepare, more than 2,800 local health departments have begun recruiting pediatricians, obstetricians, nurses, pharmacists, paramedics and even dentists, along with a small army of volunteers from churches and other groups. They are devising strategies to reach children, teenagers, pregnant women and young and middle-aged adults in inner cities, suburban enclaves and the countryside.

"This is potentially the largest mass-vaccination program in human history," said Howard Markel, a professor of medical history at the University of Michigan who is advising the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as it spearheads the effort.

Public health officials describe the effort as crucial to defend against the second wave of the Northern Hemisphere's first influenza pandemic in 41 years.

As schools reopen, the number of cases could jump sharply within weeks, sparking a second wave potentially far larger than the outbreak last spring. Although the swine flu appears no more dangerous than the typical seasonal flu, the new virus -- known as H1N1 -- is likely to infect many more people because most have no immunity against it.

The vaccine effort carries political risks for the Obama administration. "If the outbreak fizzles, they will be susceptible to being criticized for spending billions of dollars," said Harvey V. Fineberg, president of the National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine, which advises Congress about medical issues. "On the other hand, if this outbreak is early and severe and there isn't enough vaccine, they'll be criticized for under-preparation."

Officials stress that they are proceeding cautiously. A final decision to move forward will not be made until they get the results of clinical trials -- testing to determine safety and dosing -- and assess the virus's threat. But officials are confident the vaccine will pass muster and expect a campaign will be launched as soon as manufacturers deliver the first vials.
So is it a Political problem or a virus ? http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/laff.gif


"There's little doubt we're going to vaccinate people," said Anthony S. Fauci of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, who is leading the government's testing of the vaccine. "Who and when and exactly how -- we have to figure out."
Sounds like a hint of mandatory vaccinations....just to be safe, I'm sure. http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/smiley.gif


The campaign is haunted by memories of the government's ill-fated 1976 effort to vaccinate against swine flu.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/res.gif
The epidemic fizzled, but the vaccine was given to 40 million people and blamed for causing a rare paralyzing disorder known as Guillain-Barré Syndrome.
I see lots of trouble on the horizon....http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/715io12.gif


Another wild card will be whether the vaccine will be delivered with an "adjuvant" to boost its effectiveness or stretch limited supplies into more doses.
Adjuvants have been used in Europe, but the Food and Drug Administration has not authorized their use in the United States.

"This is an overreaction," said Barbara Loe Fisher of the National Vaccine Information Center, which opposes many vaccine policies. http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/girl_hospital.gif
"There is no national security threat here. Why are we operating like this? This is not polio. This is not smallpox."
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gif http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gif
Fears and misinformation about the vaccine are circulating, including inaccurate claims that it will be mandatory.
Really?


"I'm very concerned about the dangers of vaccines," said Janice Smith, 58, of Misawaka, Ind.,
who attended a public hearing Aug. 15, one of a series of meetings the CDC has sponsored to gauge public sentiment about the vaccine.

Authorities are adamant that vaccination will be voluntary, and they say there is no reason to think the vaccine will be any less safe than the usual flu vaccine.
An adjuvant will be used only if necessary and proven safe, they say.

To address concerns of pregnant women and parents with young children, some vaccine is being produced without a mercury additive. And because the short-term studies can identify only common, immediate side effects, the CDC will step up monitoring for rarer, serious complications such as Guillain-Barré.
Big fucking problem, so who get's the vaccine with the Mercury?http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gifhttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gifhttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bananadead.gif


"We're putting into place systems that are as good as we can have to identify problems quickly if they do occur," CDC Director Thomas R. Frieden said.
So after these problems are noticed,
how will it be reversed in the millions of vaccinated people,
that came before the problem, became apparent?????:prayer:


In the meantime, local officials are drafting plans tailored to their communities. The shots in the arms and squirts up the nose will happen in schools, medical offices, hospitals, public health clinics, workplaces, drug stores and at mass vaccination events, possibly including drive-through clinics in parking lots where people would stick their arms out their car windows for a stab.

:ack:

"It is clearly what we would call an all hands on deck," said James Blumenstock of the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials.


Public health departments "have suffered from decades of neglect and are now facing a fiscal crisis in many places where they have had to lay staff off, or furlough staff or freeze hiring," Frieden said. "So H1N1 has not come at a particularly good time."


Setting priorities for delivering the vaccines will bring other complications. The elderly, usually first in line for flu shots, will not be this time because they seem more resistant to the virus. But they remain a top priority for the seasonal shots.
That, or is it a way to get rid of them...http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/bwahaha.gif


Schools considering giving shots to children are making plans to get permission from parents and have to determine how best to line up anxious, rambunctious students.
This will go over just fine......http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/715io12.gif

The federal government has spent close to $2 billion to buy up to 195 million doses of vaccine and adjuvant, including the standard shots and the newer FluMist nasal spray vaccine made by MedImmune of Gaithersburg.
:noevl:
.
That could increase the cost to $5 billion for the vaccine alone. It would cost at least $9 billion to administer the vaccine to the entire population, according to the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials.
:0.02:

Experts are uncertain whether they will face a shortage of vaccine because of high demand or will have plenty of vaccine but little interest.

:dunno:

"People's enthusiasm will depend largely on what they see happening around them," Fauci said. "If we get into the fall season and we don't see an explosion of cases, people will be less enthusiastic. If they see a lot of young people and kids getting sick, people will be very enthusiastic about getting vaccinated."
:vomit::vomit::vomit:

The CDC is formulating a $4.8 million multimedia campaign to encourage people to get vaccinated
:rave:

Although the vaccine will be free, providers could charge about $15 to administer it -- a fee that will be covered by Medicare and many health insurance plans.
Sounds like another Medicare scam.:doh:



Experts also worry the swine flu will divert attention from the seasonal flu, which can cause serious illness. The more people who get both vaccines, the less likely the swine flu virus will mingle with one of the others to produce a more dangerous mutant. http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/Faint.gif

"We really don't want those ugly viruses mixing together," said Kim Elliott of the Trust for America's Health, a private nonprofit research and advocacy group.:thumbs:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/Smilies1.gif

[MetalMilitia]

Let's not beat around the bush on this issue: The swine flu vaccines now being prepared for mass injection into infants, children, teens and adults have never been tested and won't be tested before the injections begin. In Europe, where flu vaccines are typically tested on hundreds (or thousands) of people before being unleashed on the masses, the European Medicines Agency is allowing companies to skip the testing process entirely.

I is still against this idea....



#1 - The vaccine production was "rushed" and the vaccine has never been tested on humans. Do you like to play guinea pig for Big Pharma? If so, line up for your swine flu vaccine this fall...

#2 - Swine flu vaccines contain dangerous adjuvants that cause an inflammatory response in the body. This is why they are suspected of causing autism and other neurological disorders.

#3 - The swine flu vaccine could actually increase your risk of death from swine flu by altering (or suppressing) your immune system response. There is zero evidence that even seasonal flu shots offer any meaningful protection for people who take the jabs. Vaccines are the snake oil of modern medicine.

#4 - Doctors still don't know why the 1976 swine flu vaccines paralyzed so many people. And that means they really have no clue whether the upcoming vaccine might cause the same devastating side effects. (And they're not testing it, either...)

#5 - Even if the swine flu vaccine kills you, the drug companies aren't responsible. The U.S. government has granted drug companies complete immunity against vaccine product liability. Thanks to that blanket immunity, drug companies have no incentive to make safe vaccines, because they only get paid based on quantity, not safety (zero liability).

#6 - No swine flu vaccine works as well as vitamin D to protect you from influenza. That's an inconvenient scientific fact that the U.S. government, the FDA and Big Pharma hope the people never realize.

#7 - Even if the swine flu vaccine actually works, mathematically speaking if everyone else around you gets the vaccine, you don't need one! (Because it can't spread through the population you hang with.) So even if you believe in the vaccine, all you need to do is encourage your friends to go get vaccinated...

#8 - Drug companies are making billions of dollars from the production of swine flu vaccines. That money comes out of your pocket -- even if you don't get the jab -- because it's all paid by the taxpayers.

#9 - When people start dying in larger numbers from the swine flu, rest assured that many of them will be the very people who got the swine flu vaccine. Doctors will explain this away with their typical Big Pharma logic: "The number saved is far greater than the number lost." Of course, the number "saved" is entirely fictional... imaginary... and exists only in their own warped heads.

#10 - The swine flu vaccine centers that will crop up all over the world in the coming months aren't completely useless: They will provide an easy way to identify large groups of really stupid people. (Too bad there isn't some sort of blue dye that we could tag 'em with for future reference...)

http://www.naturalnews.com/026717_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.htm l

[lycanox]

#1 - The vaccine production was "rushed" and the vaccine has never been tested on humans. Do you like to play guinea pig for Big Pharma? If so, line up for your swine flu vaccine this fall...
Wrong (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/08/05/swine-flu-vaccine.html). Tests have already began.


#2 - Swine flu vaccines contain dangerous adjuvants that cause an inflammatory response in the body. This is why they are suspected of causing autism and other neurological disorders.
Wrong (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003673,00.html), no link between autism and vaccines have ever been found.


#3 - The swine flu vaccine could actually increase your risk of death from swine flu by altering (or suppressing) your immune system response. There is zero evidence that even seasonal flu shots offer any meaningful protection for people who take the jabs. Vaccines are the snake oil of modern medicine.

Wrong. Small Immune responses to other antigens (Except the HIV virus) do not hinder the immune response to Swine flue. Otherwise people would die if they get two deceases at the same time.

Vaccination (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/14/1373) are associated with a 27% reduction in the risk of hospitalization for pneumonia or influenza and a 48% reduction in the risk of death


#4 - Doctors still don't know why the 1976 swine flu vaccines paralyzed so many people. And that means they really have no clue whether the upcoming vaccine might cause the same devastating side effects. (And they're not testing it, either...)

Millions of people were vaccinated that time. Making even the risks back then extremely low.



#5 - Even if the swine flu vaccine kills you, the drug companies aren't responsible. The U.S. government has granted drug companies complete immunity against vaccine product liability. Thanks to that blanket immunity, drug companies have no incentive to make safe vaccines, because they only get paid based on quantity, not safety (zero liability).
Which has no relevance to the question about whether or not they work. And whether or not they are important.


#6 - No swine flu vaccine works as well as vitamin D to protect you from influenza. That's an inconvenient scientific fact that the U.S. government, the FDA and Big Pharma hope the people never realize.
Incorrect. The effectiveness of the body to fight deceases is dependent of lot of different variables. People should never rely on vitamins alone to fight of a decease. Especially if already in a weakened conditions.


#7 - Even if the swine flu vaccine actually works, mathematically speaking if everyone else around you gets the vaccine, you don't need one! (Because it can't spread through the population you hang with.) So even if you believe in the vaccine, all you need to do is encourage your friends to go get vaccinated...
Depends on the decease and effectiveness of the vaccine.


#8 - Drug companies are making billions of dollars from the production of swine flu vaccines. That money comes out of your pocket -- even if you don't get the jab -- because it's all paid by the taxpayers.
Nothing is free in the world. The red cross is making millions out of disasters like Katrina as well. Nor does this have anything to to with the effectiveness of the vaccine.


#9 - When people start dying in larger numbers from the swine flu, rest assured that many of them will be the very people who got the swine flu vaccine. Doctors will explain this away with their typical Big Pharma logic: "The number saved is far greater than the number lost." Of course, the number "saved" is entirely fictional... imaginary... and exists only in their own warped heads.

Standard Conspiracy/Religious self protection trick.
Any number that does not fit the theory must be a fabrication even from official instances. While any number that fits my theory, even from shady youtube videos and such must be correct.



#10 - The swine flu vaccine centers that will crop up all over the world in the coming months aren't completely useless: They will provide an easy way to identify large groups of really stupid people. (Too bad there isn't some sort of blue dye that we could tag 'em with for future reference...)
Standard Conspiracy/Religious ego trick.
Only Idiots believe in evolution. While we are smart enough to read in the bible about genesis.

[MetalMilitia]

It's the idea that we could be forced into something we want no part of.... maybe you're all for trusting the people in charge, but I for one would rather at least get crack at a policy/system.

Seasonal flu kills 36,000 - swine flu as estimated may kill 90,000 in the US. Yeah, that sucks - but learn to take care of yourself and then you won't be as high a target.

Better yet, let all yer friends get the vaccine so they can't contract it, then take a week off. You won't need it LOL.

You can debunk all the shit you want man, it's not a conspiracy / crackjob thing.... People having no choice in the matter is the bullshit aspect - and all the while Big Pharma is sitting back laughing at us and drooling on their profit margin.

But hey, if I was a German in 1933 odds are I'd think that new Chancellor coming in and his ideas were "nifty". That's what happens when you follow blindly and have no choice....

[MetalMilitia]

Also if it's tested and safe, why the fuck are 1/2 of the GP's (General practitioners) turning down the vaccine over "testing fears"


Up to half of family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu.

GPs will be first in the line for the jabs when they become available but many will decline, even though they will be offering the vaccine to their patients.

More than two thirds of those who will turn the jab down believe it has not been tested enough. Most also believe the flu has turned out to be so mild in the vast majority of cases that the vaccine is not needed.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208716/Half-GPs-refuse-swine-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html


A poll of doctors for Pulse magazine found that 49 per cent would reject the vaccine with 9 per cent undecided.

A separate survey for GP magazine found that 29 per cent would definitely opt out of having the jab, while a further 29 per cent were unsure. Just 41 per cent said they would definitely have the jab.

Of those who said they did not want to jab, 71 per cent said it was because of safety concerns.

I assume these doctors are incompetent according to you?

[lycanox]

There is currently absolutely no real indication that vaccination is going to be mandatory.

And the problem with doctors is that they are trained in a wide field. And have to send people to an expert if that isn't sufficient.
As a result. Few doctors are actually fully educated on the workings of vaccination or Influenza pandemics.

[MetalMilitia]

There is currently absolutely no real indication that vaccination is going to be mandatory.

And the problem with doctors is that they are trained in a wide field. And have to send people to an expert if that isn't sufficient.
As a result.

I'm gonna make the same analogy I made last night...

What those GP's are telling you, would be like the Goodyear Tire company NOT WANTING TO DRIVE ON THEIR OWN TIRES.

That's about the amount of faith they have, 50% would refuse to have goodyear tires on their car.

Think of it that way....

There is a damn good reason so many would turn it down, and it doesn't take an "expert" to see why. You say it's tested and safe, but clearly people in the medical field disagree. As for mandatory, don't be surprised when they propose the idea for public schools to simply handle the shot giving process - much like they have in the past.


Few doctors are actually fully educated on the workings of vaccination or Influenza pandemics.

Then why are they going to be the ones administering it?

I have some other examples of how so far advanced we are now...

Man collapses with ruptured appendix... three weeks after NHS doctors 'took it out'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208970/Man-collapses-ruptured-appendix--weeks-NHS-doctors-took-out.html#ixzz0PJUwyJ1Y

The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209034/The-babies-born-hospital-corridors-Bed-shortage-forces-4-000-mothers-birth-lifts-offices-hospital-toilets.html#ixzz0PJV2uJOB

These are the people you want in charge of jabbing you?

Comical....

[lycanox]

I'm gonna make the same analogy I made last night...

What those GP's are telling you, would be like the Goodyear Tire company NOT WANTING TO DRIVE ON THEIR OWN TIRES.

That's about the amount of faith they have, 50% would refuse to have goodyear tires on their car.

Think of it that way....

There is a damn good reason so many would turn it down, and it doesn't take an "expert" to see why. You say it's tested and safe, but clearly people in the medical field disagree. As for mandatory, don't be surprised when they propose the idea for public schools to simply handle the shot giving process - much like they have in the past.

Then why are they going to be the ones administering it?

I have some other examples of how so far advanced we are now...

Man collapses with ruptured appendix... three weeks after NHS doctors 'took it out'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208970/Man-collapses-ruptured-appendix--weeks-NHS-doctors-took-out.html#ixzz0PJUwyJ1Y

The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209034/The-babies-born-hospital-corridors-Bed-shortage-forces-4-000-mothers-birth-lifts-offices-hospital-toilets.html#ixzz0PJV2uJOB

These are the people you want in charge of jabbing you?

Comical....
Rather those. Than people with no medical education at all.

Besides, every industry has its flaws. The food industry has food poisoning/infection and the debate about health food.
The car industry has the debate whether or not those new tools that are supposed to make driving safer are distracting from driving
The educational system still has to decide what system works better.
And etcetera.

[MetalMilitia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxxYIeE0_p0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatreallyhappened.com%2Ftaxonom y%2Fterm%2F97&feature=player_embedded#t=67p

I know there's another thread, but I may as well include that in here.

I'd rather buy a case and quarantine myself.

I don't think you understand how unconstitutional these laws are, I cannot believe they pass them - and seemingly no one man's up (public figure) to argue against them.


Healthy Children Needed For Swine Flu Vaccine Research

http://www.wcpo.com/content/specials/2009/swineflu2009/story/Healthy-Children-Needed-For-Swine-Flu-Vaccine/qwizQGidz0ClWBr5QivW3A.cspx

Cincinnati Children's Hospital needs healthy children for swine flu vaccine studies.

Officials are looking for children who range from six months to nine-years-old to participate.

The studies are done in order to test investigational vaccines against the flu and swine flu viruses.

All volunteers will be paid for time and travel.

On Wednesday, a mother of four made all of her kids participate in the vaccine study.

"They're worried if kids aren't getting vaccinated that everyone's going to get it. A lot of kids don't practice washing their hands, putting sanitizer on their hands so the vaccine would be a very good thing," says Patricia Evers.

If you are interested you can contact the Gamble Program for Clinical Studies at Cincinnati Children's.

For something so tested and proven, you're reaching wrong answers on every aspect. Admitting in every way that it is completely untested, there are now LAWS IN PLACE and even people in the medical field are thinking about NOT GETTING THE SHOT.... It's gone from conspiracy to reality. Penalties for not getting it, or making it mandatory - what is the difference? You're punished in some way for not opting to get it, therefore the "nutjobs" have been right all along. They are passing laws saying that if you don't jab yer kid, with this untested shit (which 1/2 of GP's don't want) you can be considered a criminal.

Where is the conspiracy now?

Oh yeah, Michael Jackson - somehow killed. Go back to sleep, lol. Something that could kill 30-90,000 people, and the main headlines of every paper and news outlet reports on MJ.

[lycanox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxxYIeE0_p0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatreallyhappened.com%2Ftaxonom y%2Fterm%2F97&feature=player_embedded#t=67p

I know there's another thread, but I may as well include that in here.

I'd rather buy a case and quarantine myself.
That is your choice


I don't think you understand how unconstitutional these laws are, I cannot believe they pass them - and seemingly no one man's up (public figure) to argue against them.



For something so tested and proven, you're reaching wrong answers on every aspect. Admitting in every way that it is completely untested, there are now LAWS IN PLACE and even people in the medical field are thinking about NOT GETTING THE SHOT.... It's gone from conspiracy to reality. Penalties for not getting it, or making it mandatory - what is the difference? You're punished in some way for not opting to get it, therefore the "nutjobs" have been right all along. They are passing laws saying that if you don't jab yer kid, with this untested shit (which 1/2 of GP's don't want) you can be considered a criminal.


Where is the conspiracy now?

Oh yeah, Michael Jackson - somehow killed. Go back to sleep, lol. Something that could kill 30-90,000 people, and the main headlines of every paper and news outlet reports on MJ.
Again, those are just regulations being created to deal with a worst case scenario. As most likely the current pandemic made various cities and states take a second look at the emergency regulations and update it as necessary.

The creation of laws that allow the military to move into coastal areas to enforce martial law also seems like a bad evil conspiracy. Then Katrina came along.

Like I stated before. I am aware that these laws exist. There is however no indication that such emergency program is being planned anytime soon.

[medicvet]

I just watched that and was going to make a post on it, but it looked like someone beat me to the punch. ;)

This is the scariest piece of legislation that I have seen in a long damn time.

[MetalMilitia]

Two swine flu call centres are to close just weeks after opening because staff have been spending most of their time playing cards and board games.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money has been 'squandered' after around 1,200 workers were employed to deal with the expected deluge of anxious calls.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209817/The-swine-flu-centres-staff-play-cards-Trivial-Pursuit.html



WOW THIS THING IS OUTTA CONTROL EVERYONE RUN FOR YER LIVEZ!!!!!! DON'T FORGET TO MAKE SURE BIG PHARMA GETS YER MONEY FIRST.... ALSO THE WHO NEEDS MORE MONEY!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!!!



Stop eating up the hype...

[MetalMilitia]

Swine flu death rate similar to seasonal flu

http://www.reuters.com/article/email/idUSTRE58E6NZ20090916


The death rate from the pandemic H1N1 swine flu is likely lower than earlier estimates, an expert in infectious diseases said on Wednesday.

New estimates suggest that the death rate compares to a moderate year of seasonal influenza, said Dr Marc Lipsitch of Harvard University.

"It's mildest in kids. That's one of the really good pieces of news in this pandemic," Lipsitch told a meeting of flu experts being held by the U.S. Institute of Medicine.

"Barring any changes in the virus, I think we can say we are in a category 1 pandemic. This has not become clear until fairly recently."

The Pandemic Severity Index set by the U.S. government has five categories of pandemic, with a category 1 being comparable to a seasonal flu epidemic.

Friggin A - who was saying this all along?

I know it takes weeks to "gather" the impact of what it's going to do, and how many will die - still, pretty convenient how the new study comes out now that all the spending is done.

You're welcome big pharma, enjoy our cash :deadhorse: At least someones doing good while the economy is sucking ballsack.


As of June 4, 2009, Anne Schuchat, the Immunization Director of the CDC believed that little pandemic vaccine would be available by the fall, even if nothing goes wrong or delays production. The U.S. goal of pandemic plans is to make 600 million doses in six months, enough for two doses for each American, according to experts, with an estimated cost of $8 billion.



http://www.guzer.com/pictures/money-tp.jpg

[lycanox]

And your evidence that it is going to stay this way is?
Or are you too suggesting a don't do shit until the corpses are stashing up and the world economy is ruined approach.

And did you really have to move this whole conspiracy ridden threat back to politics and current events? Instead of just starting just another thread.

[MetalMilitia]

Of course I did, I said it wouldn't be moved. Aint making myself a liar ;)

Part of the reason the DB is so vast is cause people make 27 threads on 1 subject rather than pull up previous ones.

[James Random]

And did you really have to move this whole conspiracy ridden threat back to politics and current events? Instead of just starting just another thread.

Aww. Did lycatroll get pwned? Have a nice bone. There is no conspiracy in this thread, only factual evidence gatheed from various sources. Just because you do not hold any value to these resources because they're not from your bumsucking mates down at the WHO, it does not make it a conspiracy thread.

[uki]

I said it wouldn't be moved. Part of the reason the DB is so vast is cause people make 27 threads on 1 subject rather than pull up previous ones.and since this one won't be moved, we should make sure it stays at the top of the current events section simply because of the plethora of information thats all stuffed inside. ::):


Sept. 14 (Bloomberg) -- After being infected with swine flu, Brent Robb, a 34-year-old New Zealander with no pre-existing medical conditions, spent 11 days in a coma induced by doctors in a last-ditch effort to save his life.

A printer who liked to bike 12 miles a week for exercise, Robb lost two months of work while sick, and a sixth of his body weight. He survives as an example of a mystery hovering over the fast-moving pandemic that has spread to 177 countries in four months, yet causes little more than a fever and a cough in all but a select few.

Seasonal flu kills predominantly the frail elderly. Researchers are trying to determine why the H1N1 swine flu virus, much like the Spanish Flu of 1918, is lethal to a portion of young people in good health. The reason may involve a person’s genetics, or simply taking a deep breath just as a nearby infected person sneezes.

“That’s a question we have to find the answer to,” said Nikki Shindo, a Geneva-based doctor leading the World Health Organization’s investigation of swine flu patients.

Underlying conditions that can intensify the effects of flu include respiratory illnesses, especially asthma, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, a suppressed immune system, and even pregnancy. About 25 percent to 50 percent of severe cases worldwide involve healthy young and middle-aged people like Robb, according to WHO Director-General Margaret Chan.

Unpredictable Disease

It is a statistic that highlights how unpredictable the disease has turned out to be, said Ian Barr, deputy director of the WHO’s Collaborating Center for Influenza in Melbourne.

“People are happy to dismiss serious cases among people with underlying conditions,” Barr said in an interview. “It’s a wake-up call when healthy people are struck down.”

As many as 2 billion people, or 30 percent of the world’s population, may become infected by the new virus as it spreads globally, according to the WHO. Identifying those likely to recover without medical help and those who may become severely ill will help prioritize vaccination and drug treatment.

In Australia, the median age of people dying from seasonal flu is 83. With the H1N1 swine flu, it is 54 years, according to the government’s Aug. 28 influenza surveillance summary report. In New South Wales, Australia’s most-populous state, the majority of H1N1 patients in intensive-care units are 30 to 59 years old, the state government’s Sept. 9 weekly report notes.

Spanish Flu

A similar trend has been observed worldwide since the pandemic was discovered in April in Mexico. There, 70 percent of fatal cases were of people ages 20 to 59 years, Guillermo Ruiz- Palacios, head of infectious diseases at the National Institute of Medical Sciences and Nutrition in Mexico City, told global health experts today at the Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy in San Francisco.

Increased incidence of severe disease in young adults is “distinctly unusual for seasonal influenza” and a pattern not seen so markedly since the 1918 Spanish Flu, said Jonathan McCullers, an infectious diseases doctor at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital in Memphis.

“That was one of the hallmarks of that pandemic,” McCullers said today at the conference. “Young adults were really the hardest hit group.”

McCullers said a study beginning in November will analyze whether bacteria worsen the effects of flu.

Genetic Cause

Scientists at the San Francisco conference, the world’s biggest meeting of infectious disease specialists, are set to report on a study that sifted through blood test results from dozens of patients with complications in search of a common genetic cause.

Bad luck may also play a role, WHO’s Shindo said. Taking a deep breath or yawning immediately after an infected person nearby coughs or sneezes may enable large amounts of airborne viral particles to penetrate the lower lung, she said.

“There have got to be some host factors that are involved in terms of explaining why there are these rare, lethal pneumonias and why some folks don’t handle the virus at all well and the vast majority have an uncomplicated illness,” said Frederick Hayden, professor of clinical virology at the University of Virginia School of Medicine in Charlottesville.

Doctors haven’t been able to explain why Robb almost died while his partner, Susanna Gillies, and their 5-year-old son both escaped uninfected, Gillies said in an interview.

‘Couldn’t Shake It’

Robb’s illness began like most flu cases. Forty-eight hours after returning from a daylong business trip to Melbourne on July 9, he was laid up in bed.

“I just thought it was the flu, but I couldn’t shake it,” he said over the telephone from his home on the outskirts of Christchurch, New Zealand’s third-biggest urban area. “I started getting run-down, then came the body shivers and sweats, and I felt very tired with a major, major headache.”

Robb’s cough became so persistent on the evening of the fifth day of his illness that he moved to the sofa to avoid disturbing Gillies, he said. Having not eaten in days, he was pale, feverish and too weak to sit up, and panting rapidly, recalled Gillies, a 36-year-old bookkeeper.

“I just wasn’t able to take deep breaths,” Robb said.

His condition worsened the next day, said Gillies, who called New Zealand’s Healthline, a free 24-hour telephone medical advice service. “Twice they said they didn’t want to see him. There was nothing they could do for the cough. Just keep the fluids up,” she said.

Just before 5 p.m., when shops in Christchurch were preparing to close, Gillies called the hotline a third time.

Last Chance

“I thought this was my last chance to get something for him before the weekend,” she said. “Luckily they asked me more about his symptoms and said I should bring him in.”

Robb arrived at the clinic an hour later struggling to breathe with a temperature of more than 39 degrees Celsius (102 Fahrenheit), Gillies said.

“They thought he had pneumonia and told us to go straight to the accident and emergency department,” Gillies said.

Robb’s blood oxygen saturation was 58 percent, indicating his body was so dangerously starved of air that its tissues were being damaged.

He was taken that evening to intensive care, where he was sedated so a tube could be inserted into his airway for mechanical ventilation, and he was given Roche Holding AG’s antiviral drug Tamiflu, antibiotics and painkillers, Gillies said.

Back to Health

A week later, the breathing tube was inserted directly into Robb’s windpipe to avoid it damaging his vocal cords and to enable him to be brought out of the coma. Days later he was moved back to the wards and discharged on July 31. In less than three weeks, he had shed 13 kilograms (29 pounds) from his stocky, 75-kilo, 1.62-meter- (5’4”) tall frame.

In New Zealand, about one in seven people hospitalized with H1N1 have needed intensive-care treatment, the Ministry of Health said in a Sept. 11 statement.

In most cases, flu remains in the nose, throat and bronchi, where it causes a runny nose, sore throat and cough until the body’s immune systems eliminates it, usually within a week.

The pandemic strain is more adept than seasonal flu at infiltrating the lower branches of the airway, where it can cause complications such as those that occurred in Robb’s case, including viral pneumonia, said Stephen Toovey, a senior research fellow at London’s Royal Free and University College Medical School.

Viral Pneumonia

While the pandemic virus tightly latches onto cells in the upper respiratory tract like seasonal virus, it also attacks cells in the lungs, researchers at London’s Imperial College wrote in a study reported Sept. 10 in the journal Nature Biotechnology.

In severe cases, influenza can damage the capillaries surrounding the tiny grape-like sacs, known as alveoli, where gas is exchanged through the blood. Damaged alveoli can bleed, causing pulmonary hemorrhage and blood clots.

“What makes it go from the bronchus to the alveoli is the $64,000 question,” said John Nicholls, associate professor of pathology at the University of Hong Kong, who has studied how cells interact with viruses like the H5N1 bird flu strain and SARS. Previous bouts of flu, particularly caused by strains similar to the H1N1 virus, may give some protection, he said.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is investigating the mechanisms for severe disease, Nancy Cox, director of the Atlanta-based agency’s flu division, told the meeting in San Francisco today.

“When the virus gets into the lower respiratory, it appears to replicate extremely well,” Cox said. “It’s really puzzling.”

Inflammatory chemicals are produced by the immune system to fight the infection and repair the damage. An over-exuberant response can worsen the effect by filling the lungs with fluid and cause permanent scarring that restricts the lungs.

“Pathologically, it’s identical to what happens with H5N1 infection,” known commonly as bird flu, said Shindo, the WHO doctor. “Pathologists say if they weren’t told it was H1N1 they would diagnose H5N1 as the cause.”


article (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aA5k7CsfjJ2o)

[lycanox]

Aww. Did lycatroll get pwned? Have a nice bone. There is no conspiracy in this thread, only factual evidence gatheed from various sources. Just because you do not hold any value to these resources because they're not from your bumsucking mates down at the WHO, it does not make it a conspiracy thread.

Not really, I just cut the crap out and move that to the conspiracy sections. (http://forums.armageddononline.org/swine-flue-jab-t22040.html?t=22040)
And leave only the serious attempts to discuss the matter here.

And yes, doubting the WHO in favor of obvious conspiracy sites on the Internet is a conspiracy theory.
Just like doubting the official story around 911 and Roswell is.

[uki]

Not really, I just cut the crap out and move that to the conspiracy sections. (http://forums.armageddononline.org/swine-flue-jab-t22040.html?t=22040)
And leave only the serious attempts to discuss the matter here.

And yes, doubting the WHO in favor of obvious conspiracy sites on the Internet is a conspiracy theory.
Just like doubting the official story around 911 and Roswell is.so you are tweeking one of MM's threads to fit your wishes... hmmm... MM... what's your take on this? should posts in your thread be removed because lycanox believes they are conspiracy theories?

[lycanox]

I am just doing my job by moving conspiracy theories to the conspiracy forum.
And I left the post from both sides that at least try to seriously discuss the matter.

And again, if you don't want stuff moved to the conspiracy section. Than stop acting like it is all a big conspiracy.

[olddragon]

I am just doing my job by moving conspiracy theories to the conspiracy forum.
And I left the post from both sides that at least try to seriously discuss the matter.

And again, if you don't want stuff moved to the conspiracy section. Than stop acting like it is all a big conspiracy.

Sometimes you can do a job, TO WELL !:vomit:

[MetalMilitia]

Second wave of swine flu pandemic begins to hit US (http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/09/28/second_wave_of_swine_flu_pandemic_begins_to_hit_us/?s_campaign=8315)

After months of warnings and frantic preparations, the second wave of the swine flu pandemic is starting to be felt around the country. Doctors, health clinics, hospitals, and schools are reporting rapidly increasing numbers of patients experiencing flu symptoms.

Mercury limits suspended for H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine to improve access (http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2009_news/09-154.htm)

State health officials are taking steps to ensure Washington residents at highest risk for H1N1 (swine flu) infection have broad access to the new vaccine when its available. Secretary of Health Mary Selecky is temporarily suspending Washingtons limit on the amount of mercury (thimerosal) allowed in H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine given to pregnant women and children under three.

Doctor says H1N1 vaccine is Dangerous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHYZwiD_x9o

Forced Vaccines Refused By Nurses In New York
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7wBwOEsw2I

Btw, my sister had it last week.... she said it was like seasonal.... but worse fevers. She would be 16, so I think if she can kick it's ass - a lot of people can ;)

I'd still rather get it and just deal with it than jab something that "needs more testing". It's not safe, despite all the arguing here. Links to autism and muscle problems as opposed to being laid up a few days.... hmmm.....

[Sirius]

Knightmare told me last night she has swine flu.

[Mezurashi]

funny that a lot of the media around the Canadian Docs calling for further review and testing of the Vaccine has not been pounded to death on AO.

now that Canada has become home to the 'flaky docs who don't trust the Vaccine' I would have hoped we'd have reached more prominence on the AO radar.

and lyca, this is Not a conspiracy because Real Medical Doctors and Disease Specialists have been the ones blowing the trumpets ...

unless now it's the the case that Only Canadian Doctors are in on the Conspiracy.

so ... since the WHO is starting to split on this issue ...

is there a need for lyca anymore? roflmao (sorry, having myself a 'uki' moment there)

[MetalMilitia]

and lyca, this is Not a conspiracy because Real Medical Doctors and Disease Specialists have been the ones blowing the trumpets ...



I hadn't heard about NY making it mandatory... Seems those nurses don't want it - and if they refuse, they can lose their job. So now there is an actual case of 'forced' imposed - even if it's strictly for medical personnel - it's being 'forced'.

[lycanox]

Medical personal however are a high risk group for deceases.
A vaccination for a nurse is basically what a hard hat is for a construction worker.

And if they aren't vaccinated. We run the risk of a huge labor shortage in hospitals at the peak of an outbreak. Which could easily lead to dangerous situations.
Besides Flue shots are not the only vaccines mandatory.

[MetalMilitia]

All fine and dandy, but a hardhat isnt linked to autism and muscle disorders....

[lycanox]

Neither are vaccines linked to autism.

And the chance of actually getting GBS from the vaccine is one out of a million.
Which is very little compared with the amount of people dying from seasonal flue and other deceases with a existing vaccine each year.

Besides, since GBS is believed to be started by infections, the question is mood anyway.
As even if you refuse the vaccine. You will be infected by deceases anyway.
Unless you choose to live in a plastic bubble.

[James Random]

Neither are vaccines linked to autism. .

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[uki]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.how dare you criticize an "expert" in the field??? shame on you... vaccinations are safe for all!!! step right up and expose your arm today!! it's patriotic!!! do it for your family and your country... don't be selfish. ::):

[Perfectionist]

How To Kill All Conspiracy Nuts

Step 1) Force vaccinations against specific disease = all Nuts will refuse
Step 2) Release specific disease = all Nuts have no immunity so die

:D

It's a real shame there are no Doctors or Medical types on AO ...... AdminDude get of yo ass and recruit some qualified members ffs !! :toast:

[MetalMilitia]

MANDATORY IMMUNIZATIONS FOR 500,000 IN NY
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/mandatory-flu-vaccination-splits-workers-1.1481242?print=true

There is no conspiracy. They get the shot or risk getting fired.... That was the argument the whole time - FORCED.


Despite a planned rally in Albany Tuesday to protest a state regulation requiring health care workers be vaccinated against influenza — both seasonal and swine flu — New York’s top public health official predicts dissenters will ultimately extinguish their anger and roll up their sleeves.

The regulation, which was approved in August, comes with a stinging addendum: Get vaccinated or get fired.


Reed and Kristi Tramposch, both registered nurses in the neonatal intensive care unit at Stony Brook University Medical Center, say as parents of a child with an autism spectrum disorder, they oppose vaccination because of possible links to the neurodevelopmental condition.

I know American health care system sucks ass, but when you got nurses and doctors telling you such things - maybe you should listen.... and re-read the side effects of the 1976 debacle.


Gov't: Girl’s Autism-Like Symptoms Linked to Vaccines
Federal Officials Say Vaccines Worsened Condition That Led to Autism Spectrum Disorder in Georgia Girl - http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080306/vaccine-autism-debate-heats-up


(CBS) Because Alex Donnelly is autistic, he can't communicate normally or lead a normal life.

Yet he has some amazing abilities. When asked what the capital cities of Turkmenistan and Venezuela are, he can answer "Ashkerbad" and "Caracas" accurately.

His father claims Alex wasn't autistic - until he got certain vaccinations containing a mercury preservative. - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/22/eveningnews/main625458.shtml

Dude you could be right, but there's plenty of cases reported of problems immediately following certain vacs. Quite honestly, I'll go with the skeptics - let it be tested. Like I said, my little sis had it - and she was back in school 3-4 days? 3-4 days of agony over potential side effects for life.... that's not even a choice....

[AnneOminous]

It's not just in NY. I work in the medical industry in sourther Cali and healthcare workers here face mandatory vaccines as well. Just in the past two days I've gone into two hospitals that are requiring the vaccinations.

Wonder how it's all going to play out?

[MetalMilitia]

It's not just in NY. I work in the medical industry in sourther Cali and healthcare workers here face mandatory vaccines as well. Just in the past two days I've gone into two hospitals that are requiring the vaccinations.

Wonder how it's all going to play out?

Would you be one willing to get it right away?

[mtnmanjames]

NO WAY, NO HOW, will I get this vaccine.

[AnneOminous]

No. Not for me.

[Knightmare]

Why should i get it when i already have had swine flu? A simple serum level screen will reveal that. Or is that too much to ask for?

[lycanox]

MANDATORY IMMUNIZATIONS FOR 500,000 IN NY
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/mandatory-flu-vaccination-splits-workers-1.1481242?print=true

There is no conspiracy. They get the shot or risk getting fired.... That was the argument the whole time - FORCED.
Yes but they are medical employees. Whish already have to undergo forced immunizations for other deceases aswell.


I know American health care system sucks ass, but when you got nurses and doctors telling you such things - maybe you should listen.... and re-read the side effects of the 1976 debacle.
However there was no 2008, 2007, 2006 and so on debacle.
Yet those years too had succesfull vaccination programmes against the flue.



- http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080306/vaccine-autism-debate-heats-up

- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/22/eveningnews/main625458.shtml
It has been tested thorougly. And no link to autism or even an solid reason to suspect vaccines cause autism has ever been found. As no increase of autism has never been detected in a vaccinated population.



Dude you could be right, but there's plenty of cases reported of problems immediately following certain vacs. Quite honestly, I'll go with the skeptics - let it be tested. Like I said, my little sis had it - and she was back in school 3-4 days? 3-4 days of agony over potential side effects for life.... that's not even a choice....
Your sis may had 3-4 days of agony due to the flue. But others end up in life threatening conditions. Or even death.
Whish could have been prevented by a vaccine.

In the US. H1N1 has already killed more people in the first wave, than the vaccine ever will.

[MetalMilitia]

Ok. I see you're stubborn so how about some other vaccines... Oh look, a news story from THIS MORNING.

A 14-year-old schoolgirl has died shortly after being given the new cervical cancer vaccine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6236699/14-year-old-dies-after-being-given-cervical-cancer-jab.html


The teenager was one of four classmates who suffered side-effects at a school in Coventry after receiving the jab as part of the national immunisation programme.

The other girls suffered dizziness and nausea after being injected with Cervarix, which guards against the human papilloma virus (HPV), but did not need hospital treatment. The batch of vaccine has since been quarantined and the Medicines and Health care products Regulatory Agency is investigating.

I'm sure you'll just pick out this part:


"no link can be made between the death and the vaccine until all the facts are known and a post-mortem takes place."

Do you honestly think a 14 year old would just take ill and drop dead for no reason? Couldn't have been the vaccine right?

Jesus jackhammerin' Christ you are stubborn.

The medical field fucks up all the time.

Why else would you watch a commercial that talks about "how you can prevent this".... but at the end of the the commercial it rants of 30 things for side effects (as fast as possible I may add) - Then they casually say : ask your doctor if this is right for you.

Big Pharma does NOT WANT YOU HEALTHY. They don't want your body to think it's ok, and they do not want you using natural cures. That's bad for business.

Ill leave you with some legal drugs that mess people up - often worse than their problem:

CHANTIX - anti-smoking aid
"Nausea, sleep disturbance, constipation, flatulence, and vomiting."

ADVAIR - asthma treatment
"asthma related death"

VERAMYSYT - "treats allergy symptoms with a gentle fine mist that is scent-free."
"nasal sores, glaucoma, cataracts and nasal fungal infection"
More disturbingly, ads for Veramyst used to say, "The way VERAMYST works is not entirely understood." - AND THEY GIVE IT TO PEOPLE!?

ALLI - weight loss aid
"These changes may include gas with oily discharge, an increased number of bowel movements, an urgent need to have them, and an inability to control them."

FLOMAX - decreases symptoms from having an enlarged prostate (mainly frequent urination)
* runny nose
* dizziness
* decrease in semen

MIRAPEX - for "Restless Leg Syndrome"
"...hallucinations may occur..."
"...increased gambling, sexual, or other overpowering urges..."

You would be amazed at what is circulated legally, and supposedly working - but you're wrong about how 'sophisticated' you think medicine is. I trust my body to get through it, and I will isolate myself til it's run it's course. If you don't trust yourself, and have to rely on pumping all this shit in your system - then so be it. It's your life not mine....

[JenaS62]

I especially love the commercials for anti-depressants that state that side effects could be suicide. WTF?? LOL

[OTHERSIDER]

Swine Flu
Here is your perfect example of how power mongers are trying to control society.

[MaximumPain]

Swine Flu
Here is your perfect example of how power mongers are trying to control society.

Or is it your fear of the powermongers that drives you?

[lycanox]

Ok. I see you're stubborn so how about some other vaccines... Oh look, a news story from THIS MORNING.

A 14-year-old schoolgirl has died shortly after being given the new cervical cancer vaccine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6236699/14-year-old-dies-after-being-given-cervical-cancer-jab.html



I'm sure you'll just pick out this part:



Do you honestly think a 14 year old would just take ill and drop dead for no reason? Couldn't have been the vaccine right?

Jesus jackhammerin' Christ you are stubborn.

The medical field fucks up all the time.

Why else would you watch a commercial that talks about "how you can prevent this".... but at the end of the the commercial it rants of 30 things for side effects (as fast as possible I may add) - Then they casually say : ask your doctor if this is right for you.

Big Pharma does NOT WANT YOU HEALTHY. They don't want your body to think it's ok, and they do not want you using natural cures. That's bad for business.

Ill leave you with some legal drugs that mess people up - often worse than their problem:

CHANTIX - anti-smoking aid
"Nausea, sleep disturbance, constipation, flatulence, and vomiting."

ADVAIR - asthma treatment
"asthma related death"

VERAMYSYT - "treats allergy symptoms with a gentle fine mist that is scent-free."
"nasal sores, glaucoma, cataracts and nasal fungal infection"
More disturbingly, ads for Veramyst used to say, "The way VERAMYST works is not entirely understood." - AND THEY GIVE IT TO PEOPLE!?

ALLI - weight loss aid
"These changes may include gas with oily discharge, an increased number of bowel movements, an urgent need to have them, and an inability to control them."

FLOMAX - decreases symptoms from having an enlarged prostate (mainly frequent urination)
* runny nose
* dizziness
* decrease in semen

MIRAPEX - for "Restless Leg Syndrome"
"...hallucinations may occur..."
"...increased gambling, sexual, or other overpowering urges..."

You would be amazed at what is circulated legally, and supposedly working - but you're wrong about how 'sophisticated' you think medicine is. I trust my body to get through it, and I will isolate myself til it's run it's course. If you don't trust yourself, and have to rely on pumping all this shit in your system - then so be it. It's your life not mine....

They have stopped vaccinations with that batch. And are starting a investigation whether or not something went wrong in production.
Just like you occasionally hear with food products and the like.
(Which kill even more people each year.)

But at the moment, there is no reason to believe that the vaccine itself is unsafe. As the exaggerated response of the body is only seen in that particular group of people. And not in the entire community.

Besides, Cancer kills or ruins the lives of more girls each year than the vaccine does.

[MetalMilitia]

Never said it didn't, it's almost like you refuse to admit they release untested shit....

I'm not saying they are bad... not once.... I'm just telling people about the possible risks. I don't even see what we're arguing here? Other than a clash of opinions over a NEW and relatively untested vaccine being WIDELY handed out, I agree some are good - and some are bad.

This one seems NOT needed (i'd rather isolate myself and just deal with it) - and contains some pretty dangerous ingredients.

I trust that when I get it, my body won't fail and I have something good on tv to watch while I'm cooped up. Seems like a better alternative.

[uki]

Besides, Cancer kills or ruins the lives of more girls each year than the vaccine does.well thats just it then... cancer kills more girls than vaccinations so they must be safe...

you are a dumb fucker... aren't you?? lyca... LOL... nevermind... keep posting - i need my routine reminders to be thankful i am not you. ::):

[MetalMilitia]

I'm not against proven ones - the ones you get before school, and the ones you get around 7th grade - they are proven.

Did you know some school kids, according to what this will add, could get up to like 4 shots total?

twice for seasonal flu, twice for pandemic swine flu - not to mention all the others?

The only purpose of me making this thread is that it's a LOT OF SHIT to put in your body in a short period of time.

The only year I got influenza was the the following winter after getting the shot for it. It did nothing.... and my body killed it off naturally. I wonder why I got the shot in the first place.... oh yeah, that type was supposedly a "bully".

Say you're a 7th grader and your parents believe in all the shots as working 100%. Thats 1-2 seasonal, possibly 2 for h1n1, and tetanus within a year... it's a LOT... not to mention any other potential medication the kid may need or be on. (asthma, Ritalin, cold, sinus)

The potential for failure or serious side effects has got to increase the more things ya put in ya.

[uki]

it's a LOT...and there is absolutely NO evidence that lots of vaccinations are detrimental to ones health... :vbroll:

[Beatnik Bob]

Actually the estimated chance of developing Guillain-Barre Syndrome is a lot smaller than actually dying of the flue.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/meningococcal/GBS/en/index.html

So it would still be silly to avoid the vaccine due to this.

The 1976 swine flu vaccine killed more people than the actual flu. As MM said. The National Immunization Program was shut down.

And there are much better ways for you to stay healthy than to take a vaccine with such a high known risk. Like...eat well. Eat miso and take probiotics....take vitamin D...

Those things have no risk of killing you, AND they can effectively prevent H1N1.


But at the moment, there is no reason to believe that the vaccine itself is unsafe.
And there's no reason to believe the swine flu is UNsafe. An average of 40,000 people or so die per month from SEASONAL flu.

Worldwide since April....about 4,000 people have died from swine flu.


SO... You can either take a vaccine which could cause GB for a disease(H1N1) which doesn't even give allot of people symptoms.

OR... You can catch it, and get over it (like most people have). You have a larger chance of dieing in your car on the way to work than you do of dieing from the swine flu.

But if you honestly want to risk taking a vaccine that killed more people in 1976 than the disease it was meant to cure....I guess that's your sad decision.

[MetalMilitia]

They're upset over an ultimatum from the health department.

Workers are being told to either get the swine flu vaccine or lose their jobs.

New York is the first state in the country to mandate flu vaccinations for its health care workers. The first doses of swine flu vaccine will be available beginning next week. Much of it is reserved for state health care workers, but there is growing opposition to required inoculations.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/swine.flu.h1n1.2.1216352.html

Must be a reason all these health care professional don't want it? Or is it a... conspiracy?


"I don't even tend to the sick. I am in the nutrition field. They are telling me I must get the shot because I work in a health clinic setting," said Paula Small, a Women, Infants and Children health care worker.

Small said she will refuse, worried the vaccine is untested and unproven, leaving her vulnerable. In 1976, there were some deaths associated with a swine flu vaccination.

Registered nurse Frank Mannino, 50, was also angry. He said the state regulation violates his personal freedom and civil rights.

FORCED.... FORCED.... FORCED.

Forced?


"And now I will lose my job if I don't take the regular flu shot or the swine flu shot."

Yes, let's piss off the medical field when you most want them to help by forcing everything or making them lose their job.

This is exactly what I was talking about.....

and this is even better :

http://www2a.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/Isolation%20Order%20v3.pdf


If you fail to comply with this ISOLATION ORDER, you will be subject to prosecution pursuant to NCGS 130A-25, which provides for imprisonment for up to two (2) years, as well as pretrial detention without bail under NCGS 15A-534.5

Up to 2 years in jail if you refuse their orders.

Now think about this, a lot of people work through colds - and some through seasonal flu (I'll give you three reasons why they do.... #1 : $ #2 : $ and number 3 : $$$$$$$$$)

Could you imagine someone being jailed for 2 years for giving someone seasonal or a cold.... perhaps mono?

[Raptor Witness]

I especially love the commercials for anti-depressants that state that side effects could be suicide. WTF?? LOL

I've always thought that was a little odd too. Have you ever heard of anyone committing suicide after smoking a joint? Nature got it right the first time.

[AnneOminous]

And if mandatory for healthcare workers, surely airline employees and all food service workers, in addition to teachers, and oh... give me a second. I'll think of some others that simply MUST have the innoculation.

For the people, for the people.

[MetalMilitia]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_KIDS_DRUG_REACTIONS?SITE=NDBIS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


More than half a million U.S. children yearly have bad reactions or side effects from widely used medicines that require medical treatment and sometimes hospitalization, new research shows.

Children younger than age 5 are most commonly affected. Penicillin and other prescription antibiotics are among drugs causing the most problems, including rashes, stomachaches and diarrhea.

Parents should pay close attention when their children are started on medicines since "first-time medication exposures may reveal an allergic reaction," said lead author Dr. Florence Bourgeois, a pediatrician with Children's Hospital in Boston.

[MetalMilitia]

And if mandatory for healthcare workers, surely airline employees and all food service workers, in addition to teachers, and oh... give me a second. I'll think of some others that simply MUST have the innoculation.

For the people, for the people.

Military to get mandatory swine flu shots soon

You psychic?


U.S. military troops will begin getting required swine flu shots in the next week to 10 days, with active duty forces deploying to war zones and other critical areas going to the front of the vaccine line, a top military commander said Tuesday.

Air Force Gen. Gene Renuart also told The Associated Press that as many as 400 troops are ready to go to five regional headquarters around the country to assist federal health and emergency management officials if needed as the flu season heats up.

The Pentagon has bought 2.7 million vaccines, and 1.4 million of those will go to active duty military. National Guard troops on active duty are also required to receive the vaccine, as are civilian Defense Department employees who are in critical jobs.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g928uDiWtcnBFT28j5UfIeUXXuMQD9B1838G2

[lycanox]

The 1976 swine flu vaccine killed more people than the actual flu. As MM said. The National Immunization Program was shut down.Whish was in 1976. With scewed figures.
As we do not know how the virus would have behaved if allowed to spread.


And there are much better ways for you to stay healthy than to take a vaccine with such a high known risk. Like...eat well. Eat miso and take probiotics....take vitamin D...

Those things have no risk of killing you, AND they can effectively prevent H1N1.
There is no such thing as a high known risk for vaccinations.
And taking a vitamin tablet wont protect risk groups for the flue.



And there's no reason to believe the swine flu is UNsafe. An average of 40,000 people or so die per month from SEASONAL flu.
There is however also no reason to believe that swine flue is completely safe.

And we inoculate for seasonal flue as well. With success and very little side effect.


Worldwide since April....about 4,000 people have died from swine flu.

And Vaccines haven't even killed 10 people.


SO... You can either take a vaccine which could cause GB for a disease(H1N1) which doesn't even give allot of people symptoms.

OR... You can catch it, and get over it (like most people have). You have a larger chance of dieing in your car on the way to work than you do of dieing from the swine flu.
Actually the risk of catching GBS from swine flue is just as high as getting it from the vaccine. As GBS is caused by infections.




But if you honestly want to risk taking a vaccine that killed more people in 1976 than the disease it was meant to cure....I guess that's your sad decision.
And yet Swine flue has ahlready killed more people than the entire world vaccination program in its first wave.
And will continue to kill people that would have lived if they took the vaccine.




http://wcbstv.com/topstories/swine.flu.h1n1.2.1216352.html

Must be a reason all these health care professional don't want it? Or is it a... conspiracy?
They just fell for the same Anti vaccine conspiracy propaganda.

Dont forget that Nurses are not expertized in flue and vaccines. They just administer the shot.



FORCED.... FORCED.... FORCED.

Forced?
And why should I care. They work in a hospital.
The flue shot is not the only shot mandatory in there.



Yes, let's piss off the medical field when you most want them to help by forcing everything or making them lose their job.
Safety regulations are safety regulations. If you refuse to wear a hard hat in construction work, you will get fired as well.

And if they aren't vaccinated. The majority will be sick at home when we need them the most.


This is exactly what I was talking about.....

and this is even better :

http://www2a.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/Isolation%20Order%20v3.pdf



Up to 2 years in jail if you refuse their orders.

Now think about this, a lot of people work through colds - and some through seasonal flu (I'll give you three reasons why they do.... #1 : $ #2 : $ and number 3 : $$$$$$$$$)

Could you imagine someone being jailed for 2 years for giving someone seasonal or a cold.... perhaps mono?
That is a quarantine order. And dodging quarantine is indeed punishable by law for a very good reason.

And it is very likely set up just in case of a mutation that can not be allowed to spread. And note that it states that it is just a Draft.
Meaning that this is not even a official document.





Military to get mandatory swine flu shots soon

You psychic?



http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g928uDiWtcnBFT28j5UfIeUXXuMQD9B1838G2
Old strategic regulation. To prevent the military from being sick at home when they are needed.

But still not the much hyped mandatory vaccination for everybody.

[James Random]

are we still at this? The thread has degraded into this, fundamentally

Lycanox: No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox: No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox No it's not.

[Perfectionist]

are we still at this? The thread has degraded into this, fundamentally

Lycanox: No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox: No it's not
Everyone else: Yes it is
Lycanox No it's not.James Racist, it's called Debating :vbroll: ...... and BOTH sides have very valid points :cool14:

[Beatnik Bob]

Whish was in 1976. With scewed figures.
Prove the figures were skewed.


As we do not know how the virus would have behaved if allowed to spread.
The virus was allowed to spread, and more died of the vaccine than the virus.



There is no such thing as a high known risk for vaccinations.
There IS. That is why MM mentioned that messages were sent to neurologists about GB.
Normal seasonal flu vaccines don't do this so much.


And taking a vitamin tablet wont protect risk groups for the flue.
Actually it will. Because being able to overcome a flu requires a healthy immune system, and vitamins, phytochemicals, and many other things, help DO that without posing the risk of GB.
Not to mention, places that receive more solar radiation don't have flu breakouts. So taking vitamin D can increase your defenses more than or nearly as much as a vaccine can. (NOT TO MENTION vitamin D doesn't cause GB).

Sound like a healthy alternative? I should say so.


There is however also no reason to believe that swine flue is completely safe.
Well, if you look at it, nothing is safe. You could choke on a vitamin C tablet even.

But honestly? The risk of dieing in your car on the way to work is much higher than dieing from swine flu.

And why risk getting GB for something that isn't even going to kill you?

Yet you risk traffic every day...


And we inoculate for seasonal flue as well. With success and very little side effect.
Seasonal flu isn't swine flu. Nor do seasonal flu vaccines cause GB.


And Vaccines haven't even killed 10 people.
I assume you are talking about swine flu vaccines?

Well, duh lycanox. In the US swine flu vaccines won't even be available for the public until mid October.

But honestly, look at the historical precedent. H1N1 is similar enough to the 1976 strain to safely say that taking the swine flu vaccine in Oct. is probably not the best decision you could make...

Considering swine flu itself isn't even dangerous. Why would you take the risk of GB when the disease you are protecting yourself from is substantially harmless.

40,000 per month worldwide (from seasonal flu) and 36,000 deaths from auto casualties (in US) > than swine flu casualties since April (4000).

Do tha math.



Actually the risk of catching GBS from swine flue is just as high as getting it from the vaccine.
Actually, no.
Swine flu does not induce GB paralysis. At all. Neither does seasonal flu.

The vaccine DOES. (That you would say the risks were equal is somewhat...absurd).


As GBS is caused by infections.
That is a HYPOTHESIS. It is not clear exactly what causes GB. All health proffessionals can agree on for certain is that allot of the times a swine flu virus needle goes in and GB comes out.


And yet Swine flue has ahlready killed more people than the entire world vaccination program in its first wave.
That isn't saying much is it? Swine flu has killed like...nobody. Swine flu deaths are like up there with bee stings, rabies, and snake bites. :lol:

Which isn't saying much. I have seen no proof that swine flu is even a threat.

I HAVE seen proof that the vaccine can be dangerous though. I would prefer h1n1 over the vaccine, because with the vaccine my body has a greater chance of destroying it.

With the vaccine...I don't have any defense against GB. EVEN IF the threat of GB is small.


And will continue to kill people that would have lived if they took the vaccine.
If you are getting this worked up over the swine flu...maybe you should do something more constructive...like demand safer cars and more train systems to be put into use to curb automobile deaths...
...which kills MORE people than swine flu. Swine flu is the most hysterically funny "pandemic" hype.
And to think the CDC would actually JAIL people if they refuse to be quarantined for a harmless disease.

"Jail for mediocrity" should be the CDC's new campaign slogan.


They just fell for the same Anti vaccine conspiracy propaganda.
And YOU fell for the "swine flu is dangerous" propaganda.

WHO is the conspiracy theorist NOW? The guy who thinks the vaccine is bad because there's a small chance for GB?
OR
The guy who is paranoid to the extent that he thinks the vaccine is even worth taking. Or that swine flu is even dangerous. Or that it is reasonable that nurses should force it.


YOU sound like the conspiracy theorist to me.

[lycanox]

Prove the figures were skewed.

There was a vaccination program that hampered the virus.


The virus was allowed to spread, and more died of the vaccine than the virus.

It was not allowed to spread due to the vaccination program.


There IS. That is why MM mentioned that messages were sent to neurologists about GB.
Normal seasonal flu vaccines don't do this so much.
The Current H1N1 vaccine is basically the same vaccine as the seasonal vaccine.


Actually it will. Because being able to overcome a flu requires a healthy immune system, and vitamins, phytochemicals, and many other things, help DO that without posing the risk of GB.
Not to mention, places that receive more solar radiation don't have flu breakouts. So taking vitamin D can increase your defenses more than or nearly as much as a vaccine can. (NOT TO MENTION vitamin D doesn't cause GB).

Sound like a healthy alternative? I should say so.

Keeping a good diet is no guarantee for good health.
And people with HIV, cancer, immune suppressors, elderly are extra vulnerable to infections. And thus need all the protection they can get.

Besides, if we compare vaccines with food. The chance of getting seriously sick from food is a lot higher.

And as I pointed out earlier GBS is not caused by vaccination but by an infection. Thus the chance of getting GBS from swine flue is just as high as getting it from the vaccine.



Well, if you look at it, nothing is safe. You could choke on a vitamin C tablet even.

But honestly? The risk of dieing in your car on the way to work is much higher than dieing from swine flu.
Does that mean that we should just let those people die?


And why risk getting GB for something that isn't even going to kill you?

Yet you risk traffic every day...
The risk of getting GBS is just as high from any other source of infection. Including an flue infection. As from getting it from the vaccine.

So the idea that you can avoid GBS by refusing vaccination is absurd.


Seasonal flu isn't swine flu. Nor do seasonal flu vaccines cause GB.
The seasonal flue vaccine is the same as the pandemic vaccine.

And you can get GBS from every infection source.



I assume you are talking about swine flu vaccines?

[QUOTE]Well, duh lycanox. In the US swine flu vaccines won't even be available for the public until mid October.

But honestly, look at the historical precedent. H1N1 is similar enough to the 1976 strain to safely say that taking the swine flu vaccine in Oct. is probably not the best decision you could make...

Considering swine flu itself isn't even dangerous. Why would you take the risk of GB when the disease you are protecting yourself from is substantially harmless.

And you base the conclusion that the virus is harmless on what exactly?



40,000 per month worldwide (from seasonal flu) and 36,000 deaths from auto casualties (in US) > than swine flu casualties since April (4000).

Do tha math.
Again, Are you suggesting that we should ignore people dying due to a decease. While we have a cure?


Actually, no.
Swine flu does not induce GB paralysis. At all. Neither does seasonal flu.

The vaccine DOES. (That you would say the risks were equal is somewhat...absurd).

Again Infections cause GBS. Not the process of vaccination.
The only reason why vaccines cause the decease occasionally is because vaccines cause small infections.


That is a HYPOTHESIS. It is not clear exactly what causes GB. All health proffessionals can agree on for certain is that allot of the times a swine flu virus needle goes in and GB comes out.
The hypothesis is that an abnormal immuneresponce during an infection causes GBS.

And 1 out of a million is not a lot.



That isn't saying much is it? Swine flu has killed like...nobody. Swine flu deaths are like up there with bee stings, rabies, and snake bites. :lol:

Which isn't saying much. I have seen no proof that swine flu is even a threat.

Again, on what exactly do you base that swine flue is harmless.


I HAVE seen proof that the vaccine can be dangerous though. I would prefer h1n1 over the vaccine, because with the vaccine my body has a greater chance of destroying it.

A lot less dangerous than the virus do.


With the vaccine...I don't have any defense against GB. EVEN IF the threat of GB is small.


If you are getting this worked up over the swine flu...maybe you should do something more constructive...like demand safer cars and more train systems to be put into use to curb automobile deaths...
...which kills MORE people than swine flu. Swine flu is the most hysterically funny "pandemic" hype.
And to think the CDC would actually JAIL people if they refuse to be quarantined for a harmless disease.

"Jail for mediocrity" should be the CDC's new campaign slogan.

You are again suggesting that we should just people die while their dead can be prevented. Just because the decease hasn't killed a lot of people yet.

And dodging quarantine is illegal and punishable by law. It has nothing to do with what decease that person is carrying. As one of the reasons a person can be quarantined is because you don't know what decease a person is carrying.
Is in most





And YOU fell for the "swine flu is dangerous" propaganda.

Actually, I have not yet claimed one thing the World Health organization hasn't. And I have enough education on these matters to sort fact from fiction.


WHO is the conspiracy theorist NOW? The guy who thinks the vaccine is bad because there's a small chance for GB?
OR
The guy who is paranoid to the extent that he thinks the vaccine is even worth taking. Or that swine flu is even dangerous. Or that it is reasonable that nurses should force it.


YOU sound like the conspiracy theorist to me.
I would say you.
Because you are afraid of an side effect that strikes one out of a million people that have taken an vaccine. While you can get the same side effect from the real virus. You are willing to face a decease that has already shown to be far more dangerous than the vaccines.

[Beatnik Bob]

There was a vaccination program that hampered the virus.
Not really.


It was not allowed to spread due to the vaccination program.
It was allowed to spread EVEN with the vaccination program. Because for one, not everyone was vaccinated.

And you are MISSING the point. You say vaccines are a smart alternative to catching the swine flu. Yet more people died FROM taking the vaccine than from the flu itself.
So, skew or no "skew" the vaccine is dangerous.


The Current H1N1 vaccine is basically the same vaccine as the seasonal vaccine.
Except the seasonal flu vaccine hasn't been linked to GB to such an extent.



Keeping a good diet is no guarantee for good health.
So? That isn't the point.


Besides, if we compare vaccines with food. The chance of getting seriously sick from food is a lot higher.
I'm talking about vitamin D and phytochemicals (unlocked from foods like miso).
The chances of getting sick from vitamin D, if there are any, are extremely extremely low.


And as I pointed out earlier GBS is not caused by vaccination but by an infection.
That is a HYPOTHESIS.


Thus the chance of getting GBS from swine flue is just as high as getting it from the vaccine.
No.

Otherwise you would hear about people getting GB from normal seasonal flu vaccines just as much.

But you don't.


Does that mean that we should just let those people die?
If you die from something as harmless as the swine flu, there is a good chance you were going to die anyway.


The risk of getting GBS is just as high from any other source of infection. Including an flue infection. As from getting it from the vaccine.
People aren't sure what causes GB. It's THOUGHT to be a pathogen, and I can guess where you got your information about it.

But...no...


So the idea that you can avoid GBS by refusing vaccination is absurd.
No it is not absurd. Because vaccines are proven to cause GBS. Why don't you listen to what some health care professionals say?

Or read MM's links.


The seasonal flue vaccine is the same as the pandemic vaccine.
Not quite, because h1ni type A is different than many other "common" flu strains.


And you can get GBS from every infection source.
Who told you that?


And you base the conclusion that the virus is harmless on what exactly?
It's not very dangerous anyway. More people die from normal seasonal flu than from swine flu.


Again, Are you suggesting that we should ignore people dying due to a decease. While we have a cure?
There has been no preliminary testing done to show that it actually is a cure. So, no.


Again Infections cause GBS. Not the process of vaccination. You are basing your knowledge on something absurd.


The only reason why vaccines cause the decease occasionally is because vaccines cause small infections.
Then why isn't GB a problem with NORMAL seasonal flu vaccines?


Uhh...that's what I thought.


And 1 out of a million is not a lot.
It's a bit more than 1 out of a million.

In 1976 when the National Immunization Program was suspended, it was done because record high statistics of people were dieing from GB.

Over 100 in city in New Jersey I believe. A city of much less than a hundred million people.


Again, on what exactly do you base that swine flue is harmless.
I meant it isn't dangerous. Your death chance is higher from driving in a car.


You are again suggesting that we should just people die while their dead can be prevented. Just because the decease hasn't killed a lot of people yet.
People who are going to die would be weak enough that they would die anyway.


And dodging quarantine is illegal and punishable by law. It has nothing to do with what decease that person is carrying.
So if you get the common cold...and you dare dodge quarantine...that's TWO YEARS BABY!
Right?
Uhm...how is the "punishment fitting the crime" in this case?


I would say you.
Because you are afraid of an side effect that strikes one out of a million people that have taken an vaccine. While you can get the same side effect from the real virus. You are willing to face a decease that has already shown to be far more dangerous than the vaccines.
Then we're BOTH paranoid conspiracy theorists. Me for not wanting GB and you for blowing the risk of swine flu out of proportion.

Just DONT let me hear you say you aren't just as much paranoid as everyone else who you CALL paranoid.
That's all.

[lycanox]

Not really.


It was allowed to spread EVEN with the vaccination program. Because for one, not everyone was vaccinated.
There are very other actions that were taken back then. And the vaccination program did helped a lot to stop the spread.


And you are MISSING the point. You say vaccines are a smart alternative to catching the swine flu. Yet more people died FROM taking the vaccine than from the flu itself.
So, skew or no "skew" the vaccine is dangerous.
However still a lot less dangerous than the virus.
As the Numbers today clearly show.


Except the seasonal flu vaccine hasn't been linked to GB to such an extent.

All vaccines are currently linked to GBS. And the pandemic vaccine is practically the same as the seasonal vaccine.



So? That isn't the point.
You seem to be suggesting it.



I'm talking about vitamin D and phytochemicals (unlocked from foods like miso).
The chances of getting sick from vitamin D, if there are any, are extremely extremely low.
But a miracle cure for the flue it is not.



That is a HYPOTHESIS.

And currently the most important hypothesis that exist that explains the emergence of the decease.


No.

Otherwise you would hear about people getting GB from normal seasonal flu vaccines just as much.


But you don't.

People do catch GBS from other infections than the vaccine. Flue is a infective decease thus can cause GBS.

The only reason why you only hear about the vaccine one, is because that is the only one being hyped at the moment.




If you die from something as harmless as the swine flu, there is a good chance you were going to die anyway.
The flue is not harmless. It already kills thousands of people each year that could have been saved with a vaccination.



People aren't sure what causes GB. It's THOUGHT to be a pathogen, and I can guess where you got your information about it.

But...no...
Nope. Its believed to be an exaggerated autoimmune response attacking the nerves triggered by an infection.



No it is not absurd. Because vaccines are proven to cause GBS. Why don't you listen to what some health care professionals say?

Or read MM's links.
Because the chance of actually getting GBS from the vaccine is neglect able.
And you can also get the decease from practically every other type of infection.

Making it, despite what the fearmongeres want people to believe, not a good to avoid vaccines.


Not quite, because h1ni type A is different than many other "common" flu strains.
It is however still a flue virus.


Who told you that?
Practically every medical source.


It's not very dangerous anyway. More people die from normal seasonal flu than from swine flu.

Still not a reason to ignore people dieing because of it.


There has been no preliminary testing done to show that it actually is a cure. So, no.
Actually the vaccine has been tested as good as possible.



You are basing your knowledge on something absurd.
Than please explain how it is absurd.


Then why isn't GB a problem with NORMAL seasonal flu vaccines?

Uhh...that's what I thought.
Because it wasn't hyped back then.



It's a bit more than 1 out of a million.

In 1976 when the National Immunization Program was suspended, it was done because record high statistics of people were dieing from GB.

Over 100 in city in New Jersey I believe. A city of much less than a hundred million people.
Source please.



I meant it isn't dangerous. Your death chance is higher from driving in a car.

People who are going to die would be weak enough that they would die anyway.
Again suggesting that we should let people die because the disease is not cool enough.



So if you get the common cold...and you dare dodge quarantine...that's TWO YEARS BABY!
Right?
Uhm...how is the "punishment fitting the crime" in this case?
Dodging quarantine is dodging quarantine.

We cant create separate laws for breaking quarantine, because one of the purpose of the quarantine is quarantining people of which we dont know what they are infected with exactly.


Then we're BOTH paranoid conspiracy theorists. Me for not wanting GB and you for blowing the risk of swine flu out of proportion.


Just DONT let me hear you say you aren't just as much paranoid as everyone else who you CALL paranoid.
That's all.
Correction, you for blowing the GBS way out of proportion and claiming that people should be left to die despite an vaccine being available.

[Mezurashi]

currently in Canada we have a 'hold' put on mandatory Vaccination and the Canadian Medical Association is saying they have determined that the Fears Have Some Merit and that The Threat Of H1N1 has been Overrated.

this isn't from some media organ or some fringe doctors - this is from the National Medical body ...

methinks 'peer review' is now starting to find the flaws in the hype.

but maybe it's just that All Canadian Doctors are in on the conspiracy.

[lycanox]

Last time I checked. Canadian doctors do not have the ability to predict the future.
Making this statement nothing more than a description of the current situation.
For all we know, A mutation occurs, half of the population is dead next year and the Canadian board fired for downplaying the risks.

We have yet to wait for 3 or 5 years before we can safely conclude whether or not the current pandemic was a hype or not.
In the mean time it is important to remember that it was the news that hyped the pandemic. And not the official health instantiations. Which kept a skeptical opinion from the beginning.

[uki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMqYlnAiIUU

the demon winks at 5:55... i shit you not - he smirks then winks. :angel:

[MetalMilitia]

We have yet to wait for 3 or 5 years before we can safely conclude whether or not the current pandemic was a hype or not.

We have to wait 3-5 years to see if all these shots combined are safe =/

[uki]

We have to wait 3-5 years to see if all these shots combined are safe =/by then it'll all be a statistic...

[lycanox]

Not quite, as the vaccine is not a new vaccine.
But just another influenza vaccine containing only additives we are already familiar with.

It would be like claiming that if Sony switched the build in DVD players in TV's with build in Blue Rays. They would have to test again whether or not the TV is still safe to use.

[Beatnik Bob]

There are very other actions that were taken back then. And the vaccination program did helped a lot to stop the spread.
When the National Immunization Program was suspended in 1976, why is it the swine flu STILL wasn't dangerous?

And it didn't kill people. Why? Once the vaccines were repealed, shouldn't all hell have broken loose?


However still a lot less dangerous than the virus.
As the Numbers today clearly show.
Odd then how more people died from GB than swine flu even though the vaccinations were repealed.
From Dec. 1976 onward, we should have been getting some flu problems.

We did not.


And it was so ridiculous that the then-director of the CDC lost his job. :vbroll:

If the vaccine is carried out like I foresee, some people in high places are going to be FIRED.


All vaccines are currently linked to GBS.
Except GB isn't a problem with the seasonal flu vaccine. It just isn't.


And the pandemic vaccine is practically the same as the seasonal vaccine.
Except swine flu is a different virus strain. That makes all the difference apparently.


You seem to be suggesting it.
No, that isn't the point I am making.


But a miracle cure for the flue it is not.
The flu is not dangerous.

You have to already have some physical problem.


And currently the most important hypothesis that exist that explains the emergence of the decease.
Completely unverifiable though. So it is absolute conjecture.


People do catch GBS from other infections than the vaccine. Flue is a infective decease thus can cause GBS.
The flu itself can't cause it, but being injected with the virus itself can.

Because, GB is not transferred by sneezing or coughing...like influenza is.


The only reason why you only hear about the vaccine one, is because that is the only one being hyped at the moment.
Swine flu in general is overhyped. Since April (when swine flu emerged) more people have died of seasonal flu than swine flu.

Let's look at the figures...worldwide 40,000 people die per month.
In six months only 4,000 people died of swine flu.

AND apparently the CDC will have you jailed for 2 years if you don't want to be quarantined for having a disease less fatal than the common cold.


The flue is not harmless. It already kills thousands of people each year that could have been saved with a vaccination.
Those thousands of people each year were not going to be saved by any vaccine.
Because most people who die from the flu already had some other physical problem...a weak immune system, lack of exercise.

Nope. Its believed to be an exaggerated autoimmune response attacking the nerves triggered by an infection. [/Quote]
Yes.
So why even risk getting that over a disease which isn't going to kill you? "Thousands of people" is not a high statistic...it is down there with raccoon and snake bites...
So, who are you kidding? Swine flu is just not dangerous enough to even bother forcing people to risk GB.


Because the chance of actually getting GBS from the vaccine is neglect able.
Then why was the National Immunization Program suspended after people got GB from receiving a vaccine?

And why was the CDC director fired?


And you can also get the decease from practically every other type of infection.
No. Or prove it.


Making it, despite what the fearmongeres want people to believe, not a good to avoid vaccines.
The people who are over-hyping swine flu are the real fear mongers. And they are over-hyping it to the extent that they say you absolutely must take the vaccine.

People who are questioning the vaccine are not fear mongers. Hell, the very people who plan on distributing it are having second thoughts. Because GB is actually a serious threat, and GB is much worse than some disease like swine flu that only physically compromised people die from.


So stop being paranoid. If you are going to call swine flu a pandemic, and expect to be taken seriously, you should address the "serious pandemic" of snake bites.


It is however still a flue virus.
A fairly harmless one.


Practically every medical source.
Sources please.


Still not a reason to ignore people dieing because of it.
Of course not, but there's not much we can do about old age.
When you get old, you die, I know it's bad, but no one can live forever.


Actually the vaccine has been tested as good as possible.
Which obviously isn't good enough, because the CDC is having doubts.

Not to mention, I believe the 1976 vaccine was tested too.



Than please explain how it is absurd.
Because GB outbreaks occur from vaccinations.


Because it wasn't hyped back then.
Why are you hyping it now?





Source please.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/463869


FROM LINK: This surveillance uncovered a total of 1098 patients with onset of GBS from October 1, 1976, to January 31, 1977.
Bit higher than "one in a million" woudln't you say, lycanox?

Keep in mind this is out of the amount of people actually vaccinated--not everyone was vaccinated (far from it).

CLICK THIS: EVEN BETTER (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/2/105?ck=nck)


Again suggesting that we should let people die because the disease is not cool enough.
Nobody is being "let die" because hardly anyone is even dieing. You are being too paranoid.
Risking GB....is just not worth the risk. Because the risk of dieing from swine flu is so incredibly incredibly incredibly low.

3,900 people in SIX MONTHS WORLDWIDE. That's nothing. 7 times that number die from seasonal flu per month.


This hype is ridiculous, lycanox.


Dodging quarantine is dodging quarantine.
And there is reasonable and UNREASONABLE quarantine. Quarantining someone for sneezing and coughing a bit is simply unreasonable.

Because everyone gets the flu at some point in their life.

We cant create separate laws for breaking quarantine, because one of the purpose of the quarantine is quarantining people of which we dont know what they are infected with exactly.



Correction, you for blowing the GBS way out of proportion
I aint blowin it out of proportion. More people died in 1976 from vaccines than swine flu.
Seems to ME like we need a vaccine AGAINST the vaccine.

Do you wan't me to LIE about the statistics? Because I would prefer not to. The only people who HAVE been lieing are the people who keep talking about how dangerous swine flu is.

And what? 3,900 people have died in six months? I realize those months didn't coincide with flu season, but even SO, that is an incredibly small number, and judging by it, it's safe to say that this year only about 10,000 people will die worldwide.


and claiming that people should be left to die despite an vaccine being available.
Say what???

The vaccine actually poses a greater threat to their health, if past medical cases are anything to judge by.

Besides, its governments and medical people who are second guessing the vaccine.


Last time I checked. Canadian doctors do not have the ability to predict the future.
The same could be said about you, for over-hyping a disease less harmless than the normal flu.

[lycanox]

When the National Immunization Program was suspended in 1976, why is it the swine flu STILL wasn't dangerous?

And it didn't kill people. Why? Once the vaccines were repealed, shouldn't all hell have broken loose?
Because the virus was already eradicated by the vaccination and quarantine.
So we never will know how much potential it had.


Odd then how more people died from GB than swine flu even though the vaccinations were repealed.
From Dec. 1976 onward, we should have been getting some flu problems.

We did not.
Actually lots of people died from flue.



And it was so ridiculous that the then-director of the CDC lost his job. :vbroll:

Which later turned out unnecessary.


If the vaccine is carried out like I foresee, some people in high places are going to be FIRED.
And for what. accidentally hurting one person, despite saving thousands.



Except GB isn't a problem with the seasonal flu vaccine. It just isn't.
It is. The difference is that the GBS is not being hyped in seasonal vaccination or normal deceases. As it currently is.


Except swine flu is a different virus strain. That makes all the difference apparently.
Not really. As the virus is still a flue virus.
The only difference is that it is a lot less easier for the body to recognize it.



No, that isn't the point I am making.
Yet you claim that a virus that has already killed thousands of people in the first wave not dangerous.



The flu is not dangerous.
It killed people.


You have to already have some physical problem.
Only more reason to take a shot.



Completely unverifiable though. So it is absolute conjecture.

And you base that on what exactly?


The flu itself can't cause it, but being injected with the virus itself can.
GBS can not be injected. As it is an autoimmune disorder.

Its like suggesting that people can be infected with diabetes.


Because, GB is not transferred by sneezing or coughing...like influenza is.

However influenza can cause GBS. So if a person sneezes in your face. You can potentially get GBS.


Swine flu in general is overhyped. Since April (when swine flu emerged) more people have died of seasonal flu than swine flu.
Again suggesting that people should not be saved because the virus is not important enough.


Let's look at the figures...worldwide 40,000 people die per month.
In six months only 4,000 people died of swine flu.
During the first wave that we know of. When the virus was not widespread.
And did not hit the absolute poor regions in the world.


AND apparently the CDC will have you jailed for 2 years if you don't want to be quarantined for having a disease less fatal than the common cold.
Again law is law.

Do you have any idea what the purpose is of quarantine?



Those thousands of people each year were not going to be saved by any vaccine.
Because most people who die from the flu already had some other physical problem...a weak immune system, lack of exercise.
Again, if you prevent the flue, you prevent people from dying from it.

You cant let people die of preventable deseases just becouse they are old.



Yes.
So why even risk getting that over a disease which isn't going to kill you? "Thousands of people" is not a high statistic...it is down there with raccoon and snake bites...
So, who are you kidding? Swine flu is just not dangerous enough to even bother forcing people to risk GB.
Again, you can just as easily get GBS from the decease as the vaccine.
So the claim that you can prevent GBS by not taking the vaccine, is at best, complete bullshit.

And again, this virus has already show to be able to kill people in a weakened condition and occasionally healthy people.


Then why was the National Immunization Program suspended after people got GB from receiving a vaccine?

And why was the CDC director fired?
And they were scapegoats fired to please the public until further research was completed.
The WHO has later concluded that the chance of actually getting GBS from vaccines is so remote that it can be neglected.



No. Or prove it.

Here you go.


No one yet knows why Guillain-Barré—which is not contagious—strikes some people and not others. Nor does anyone know exactly what sets the disease in motion.

What scientists do know is that the body's immune system begins to attack the body itself, causing what is known as an autoimmune disease. Usually the cells of the immune system attack only foreign material and invading organisms. In Guillain-Barré syndrome, however, the immune system starts to destroy the myelin sheath that surrounds the axons of many peripheral nerves, or even the axons themselves (axons are long, thin extensions of the nerve cells; they carry nerve signals). The myelin sheath surrounding the axon speeds up the transmission of nerve signals and allows the transmission of signals over long distances.

In diseases in which the peripheral nerves' myelin sheaths are injured or degraded, the nerves cannot transmit signals efficiently. That is why the muscles begin to lose their ability to respond to the brain's commands, commands that must be carried through the nerve network. The brain also receives fewer sensory signals from the rest of the body, resulting in an inability to feel textures, heat, pain, and other sensations. Alternately, the brain may receive inappropriate signals that result in tingling, "crawling-skin," or painful sensations. Because the signals to and from the arms and legs must travel the longest distances they are most vulnerable to interruption. Therefore, muscle weakness and tingling sensations usually first appear in the hands and feet and progress upwards.

When Guillain-Barré is preceded by a viral or bacterial infection, it is possible that the virus has changed the nature of cells in the nervous system so that the immune system treats them as foreign cells. It is also possible that the virus makes the immune system itself less discriminating about what cells it recognizes as its own, allowing some of the immune cells, such as certain kinds of lymphocytes and macrophages, to attack the myelin. Sensitized T lymphocytes cooperate with B lymphocytes to produce antibodies against components of the myelin sheath and may contribute to destruction of the myelin. Scientists are investigating these and other possibilities to find why the immune system goes awry in Guillain-Barré syndrome and other autoimmune diseases. The cause and course of Guillain-Barré syndrome is an active area of neurological investigation, incorporating the cooperative efforts of neurological scientists, immunologists, and virologists.


http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/detail_gbs.htm (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/detail_gbs.htm)


The people who are over-hyping swine flu are the real fear mongers. And they are over-hyping it to the extent that they say you absolutely must take the vaccine.

A yes. A decease that has killed already thousands of people worldwide is scaremongering.
Yet claiming that those people can be ignored because the vaccine has a side effect that only occurs in 1 out of a million people is not.


People who are questioning the vaccine are not fear mongers. Hell, the very people who plan on distributing it are having second thoughts. Because GB is actually a serious threat, and GB is much worse than some disease like swine flu that only physically compromised people die from.
People that concider a one out of a million side effect a reason to ban a vaccine that could safe the life of thousands, Are scaremongering.

And again you are suggesting that the weak should be left to perish. Despite having a vaccine to safe their lives.


So stop being paranoid. If you are going to call swine flu a pandemic, and expect to be taken seriously, you should address the "serious pandemic" of snake bites.
And if you want to be taken seriously. You should stop eating and breathing. As the chance of getting seriously sick of that is a lot larger than the vaccine.



A fairly harmless one.
Again, It is out there killing people.


Sources please.
Just check the internet.



Of course not, but there's not much we can do about old age.
When you get old, you die, I know it's bad, but no one can live forever.
People from old age that die of the virus could easily live for another ten year in good health. If they took the vaccine.


Which obviously isn't good enough, because the CDC is having doubts.

The CDC has allowed the vaccine.


Not to mention, I believe the 1976 vaccine was tested too.
Not on a million people. Which would have been necessary to detect this GBS side effect. Because it is so fricking rare.




Because GB outbreaks occur from vaccinations.
THey also occur during infections with lots of other pathogens.
Vaccines are simply not the only cause of GBS.



Why are you hyping it now?

Correction. You are the one hyping it now.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/463869

Bit higher than "one in a million" woudln't you say, lycanox?
That are the old figures.
And still low enough to completely neglect them.



Keep in mind this is out of the amount of people actually vaccinated--not everyone was vaccinated (far from it).
And you have to take into account the people that got the decease from alternative sources.


CLICK THIS: EVEN BETTER (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/2/105?ck=nck)
But also outdated.



Nobody is being "let die" because hardly anyone is even dieing. You are being too paranoid.
Risking GB....is just not worth the risk. Because the risk of dieing from swine flu is so incredibly incredibly incredibly low.
Again, the chance of dieng of the flue is still a lot larger than the chance of getting GBS from the vaccine. Especially among weakened people.

Besides. If we were to believe you. there are litterally millions of people with GBS in the US alone. Well in reallity more people die or seriously suffer from the flue each year.



3,900 people in SIX MONTHS WORLDWIDE. That's nothing. 7 times that number die from seasonal flu per month.
For whish we also vaccinate.



This hype is ridiculous, lycanox.
No your idea that we should let people die due to some extremely rare side effect is ridiculous.



And there is reasonable and UNREASONABLE quarantine. Quarantining someone for sneezing and coughing a bit is simply unreasonable.
The problem however with quarantine is that you can only know at the end of the quarantine whether or not it was reasonable or unreasonable.



Because everyone gets the flu at some point in their life.
Your point. Everybody gets in situation that can result in GBS even more.



I aint blowin it out of proportion. More people died in 1976 from vaccines than swine flu.
Seems to ME like we need a vaccine AGAINST the vaccine.

Do you wan't me to LIE about the statistics? Because I would prefer not to. The only people who HAVE been lieing are the people who keep talking about how dangerous swine flu is.
It is out there killing people.
Regular flue is already dangerous. And we vaccinate for that.
Pandemic flue is even more likely to kill people.



And what? 3,900 people have died in six months? I realize those months didn't coincide with flu season, but even SO, that is an incredibly small number, and judging by it, it's safe to say that this year only about 10,000 people will die worldwide.
Less people died in the first day of world war 2.
Should we ignored the nazies. back then.

Less people died in the 911 attacks. Guess that wass all hype too and it was not necessary to implement bans on bringing knives on board planes.

You are looking at numbers in a current event.
Its only 3600 now because we stopped counting. And because we are only at the beginning of the pandemic.



Say what???

The vaccine actually poses a greater threat to their health, if past medical cases are anything to judge by.
Lets see. a couple of people catching GBS syndrome. Versus a couple of thousand people dieing due to the flue in the US.

You have a severe lack of of judgement in past medical cases.


Besides, its governments and medical people who are second guessing the vaccine.
Yet it still received the Ok.



The same could be said about you, for over-hyping a disease less harmless than the normal flu.
At least I am not bluntly ignoring the disaster.
If anything. normal flue actually proves that this disease is dangerous.

[Beatnik Bob]

Because the virus was already eradicated by the vaccination and quarantine.
So we never will know how much potential it had.
It was not eradicated. Health professionals say the "threat did not materialize."
Not that many people were even vaccinated.

Some flus just aren't dangerous and they never were going to be....like the swine flu.


Actually lots of people died from flue.
Not as many as died form GB. And no, lot's of people didn't die from the flu either.
STOP being paranoid. If you wan't to start a conspiracy thread about how dangerous swine flu is....go to the conspiracy section. This section does not require your false opinion that swine flu is even remotely dangerous.


Which later turned out unnecessary.
Who are you to make that judgment?
And yes, the director deserved to be fired because he released an untested vaccine that hurt more people than it saved.

The PURPOSE of a vaccine is to prevent a threat, not create a new one.

At THAT rate, we are going to need vaccines to save us from vaccines.


And for what. accidentally hurting one person, despite saving thousands.
ONE person? It was a BIT more than that, and you know it.

You obviously think 3,900 people dieing from swine flu in six months is allot. And that's great.
But in 1976 over 1000 people got GB. So if you think a small number like 3,900 in 2009 is allot, why are you then comparing over 1000 people getting GB in 1976 as a "small chance."


It is. The difference is that the GBS is not being hyped in seasonal vaccination or normal deceases. As it currently is.
Provide a statistic please that proves seasonal flu vaccines bring GB too.


Not really. As the virus is still a flue virus.
Which is why you are not in the medical field (thankfully).

Because by that logic taking the seasonal flu vaccine would protect you from the swine flu.

Is that true? Absolutely not. Taking a seasonal flu vaccine is not even claimed to prevent swine flu.


The only difference is that it is a lot less easier for the body to recognize it.
The difference is....an extremely harmless disease is having a vaccine sold for it that has a small chance of giving you GB.

The chances of dieing from GB are estimated to be one in 100,000. The chances of dieing from swine flu are one in 10 million.

YOUR choice.


Yet you claim that a virus that has already killed thousands of people in the first wave not dangerous.
That is correct, you need to 1. stop hyping it. 2. don't blow it out of proportion.
It has killed only 3,900 people worldwide in SIX MONTHS. That is absolutely NOTHING.

You need to take your argument to the conspiracy section because it absolutely does not belong here.


It killed people.
Pencils kill people. So does the common cold. So we should then quarantine people who get the common cold under a penalty of 2 years? Where exactly are you coming from lycanox?


Only more reason to take a shot.
You have physical problems? Are you obese? If that is the case then maybe you should take a shot.

But keep in mind, the chances of dieing from GB are a bit higher. You have a 1/100,000 chance in dieing from GB.
And you have a 1/10,000,000 chance of dieing from swine flu.

Swine flu just isn't dangerous. Look how many people died from it out of how many people got it.


And you base that on what exactly?
The fact that health professionals are in disagreement over what causes GB. I'm not going to debate with you about what causes the disorder, all I can say is that outbreaks of GB have followed vaccinations--particularly so in swine flu.


GBS can not be injected. As it is an autoimmune disorder.
But GB outbreaks, for whatever reason (and medical people aren't in agreement as to why this is) have followed swine flu vaccinations more than any normal flu vaccination.


Its like suggesting that people can be infected with diabetes.
Nobody is suggesting any such thing.


However influenza can cause GBS. So if a person sneezes in your face. You can potentially get GBS.
GB is not a communicable disease.

So now YOU are suggesting you can get diabetes from being "sneezed" on...


Again suggesting that people should not be saved because the virus is not important enough.
When the vaccine is probably more dangerous than the disease itself....I would say yes. Don't do it.

Look how many people died from the disease? People who were already sick died. LMAO.


During the first wave that we know of.
Stop making it sound like it is a pandemic. It is not anywhere near it.


When the virus was not widespread.
And did not hit the absolute poor regions in the world.
Actually? It has hit poor countries in the Americas very hard. And how many people have died in the latin americas from swine flu over the course of SIX MONTHS? Uh, about 3000.

How many people die in the US alone of the NORMAL flu in ONE month? Uh, 3000.

So...


Again law is law.
So you are saying quarantining someone for having a disease as harmless as the cold at the penalty of 2 years is....okay? What?


Do you have any idea what the purpose is of quarantine?
Yes, you quarantine people for dangerous diseases that kill allot of people. Swine flu is not a dangerous disease. Syphilis kills more people. Maybe we should quarantine people with syphilis?


Again, if you prevent the flue, you prevent people from dying from it.
What's there to even prevent? I have a greater chance of dieing while I'm driving than from dieing from a desease as harmless as swine flu.

Please take your discussion to the conspiracy section if you want to talk about swine flu being dangerous.

(Which is ironic, considering you have apparently moved threads before that you deemed "conspiratorial" yet you are being incredibly paranoid).


You cant let people die of preventable deseases just becouse they are old.
Why should we let them die? I agree. We should not let them. But you are blowing swine flu out of proportion.
Those people ARE NOT going to die from the swine flu. I repeat, they will not even die from the swine flu.

What the REAL question you should be addressing, is why people should be allowed to drive when that threat is 10 times that of swine flu.


Again, you can just as easily get GBS from the decease as the vaccine.
Prove it/source.

Because you cannot get GB from being sneezed on. There is no evidence to even suggest as much.


So the claim that you can prevent GBS by not taking the vaccine, is at best, complete bullshit.
If it was such "bullshit" why did over a thousand get it in 1976?

And if it was such bullshit why is the CDC worried about it?


WHY are people in high places having second thoughts?

And they were scapegoats fired to please the public until further research was completed.
The WHO has later concluded that the chance of actually getting GBS from vaccines is so remote that it can be neglected. [/Quote]
The chance of getting it is about as remote as dieing from swine flu.

So I ask you...if you would get the vaccine to keep from getting a disease that barely kills anyone. Why not, on the same token, NOT get a vaccine to keep from getting a disorder like GB that has a very small risk of killing you as well?


Both are completely harmless. I wan't you, lycanox, to think about every argument you can as to why people should take the vaccine.
And now use every argument to show why people should not take the vaccine because of the risk for GB.

You see? Both risks are so negligible that there is as much cause to take the vaccine as there is to NOT take it.
Can we agree on that then? Because neither of them are honestly that much of a risk.


A yes. A decease that has killed already thousands of people worldwide is scaremongering.
When you say "worldwide" and you say "thousands" and you say "pandemic" and you say "six months."

YOU are being a scaremonger.
If swine flu was actually dangerous it would have killed AT LEAST 100,000 people worldwide by now. But it hasn't even killed 5,000.

But as it stands, swine flu is about as likely to kill you as the seasonal flu.

Just because it has killed thousands of people on the globe does not make it dangerous in the least. It's considerably less dangerous than cars even.


Yet claiming that those people can be ignored because the vaccine has a side effect that only occurs in 1 out of a million people is not.
I already proved that wrong. The chance of getting GB is higher than 1 in a million.

Read the link in my previous post. For your statistic to be true OVER A BILLION PEOPLE in the US would have had to be vaccinated.

But for one, the US doesn't even have a billion people, and in 1976 our whole population wasn't even vaccinated.


So take your conspiracy theories....to the conspiracy section.


People that concider a one out of a million side effect a reason to ban a vaccine that could safe the life of thousands, Are scaremongering.
Right...Thank you for giving me this opportunity to feel amused.


And if you want to be taken seriously. You should stop eating and breathing. As the chance of getting seriously sick of that is a lot larger than the vaccine.
You are telling a joke? "Stop eating and breathing."

Are you trying to be an idiot?


Again, It is out there killing people.
Pencils kill people. So does the common cold. We should put people with the common cold into quarantine right?


Just check the internet.
No. SOURCES PLEASE.

Provide sources that prove that "every doctor recognizes the threat."

Why is that not true? Well for ONE Mez just made a post about how Canadian health professionals don't want to vaccine in Canada necessarily.

And yet they are health care professionals...


People from old age that die of the virus could easily live for another ten year in good health. If they took the vaccine.
Or they could not take the vaccine and live just as long. You need to stop being a paranoid con artist and wake up to the fact that swine flu is 10 times LESS dangerous than driving in automobiles.

Yet those same old people you want to "protect" (not to mention they haven't been labeled as a high risk group) drive cars.


The CDC has allowed the vaccine.
Correction: The FDA allowed the vaccine on Sept. 15.

And the CDC is having second thoughts about it.


Correction. You are the one hyping it now.
Hyping what? GB? I already know the risk of GB is low, but hell, so is the risk for swine flu.
So if you are going to blow all kinds of shit out of proportion (like swine flu) I can turn right back at ya and use your logic to suggest that we should fear GB.

AND IT IS THE CDC THAT IS HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS IN LIGHT OF GUILLAIN-BARRE. NOT ME.


But also outdated.
No, it is not outdated. Because 1976 wasn't even that long ago. Diseases behave the same way then as they do now.


No your idea that we should let people die due to some extremely rare side effect is ridiculous.
You KEEP saying "let people die" as if swine flu is actually a threat.

There are over 6 billion people on this planet. 3,900 died from swine flu in six months.

And 40,000 died from SEASONAL flu in ONE month.

Now, tell me, what percentage of 6.5 billion is "3,900?" It's not very much is it? It's been half a year now and a small percentage have died.


So would you kindly stop being overly melodramatic by saying "let people die" when it is clear that the chance of you dieing from swine flu is simply just too low.


The problem however with quarantine is that you can only know at the end of the quarantine whether or not it was reasonable or unreasonable.
It's pretty unreasonable to quarantine for something as harmless as the cold.


It is out there killing people.
Regular flue is already dangerous. And we vaccinate for that.
Pandemic flue is even more likely to kill people.
Then obviously swine flu is NOT a pandemic flu, because it kills less people than seasonal flu.


Less people died in the first day of world war 2.
Should we ignored the nazies. back then.
The nazis weren't a virus. The comparison is ridiculous, if not a bit funny.


Less people died in the 911 attacks. Guess that wass all hype too and it was not necessary to implement bans on bringing knives on board planes.
In the 9/11 attacks 2000 people died in the period of a few hours.

With swine flu 3,900 people died over a period of six MONTHS.

And why exactly are you comparing 9/11 to a flu pandemic?


You are looking at numbers in a current event.
Its only 3600 now because we stopped counting. And because we are only at the beginning of the pandemic.
If you want to call swine flu a pandemic...go to the conspiracy section and make a thread about it.
Otherwise...


Lets see. a *couple of people catching GBS syndrome. Versus a couple of thousand people dieing due to the flue in the US.

You have a severe lack of of judgement in past medical cases.

I beg to differ. *1,000>2

It was more than a couple people lycanox. If it was only a couple people the National Immunization Program wouldn't have been SUSPENDED and the CDC director FIRED.

[James Random]

Not quite, as the vaccine is not a new vaccine.
But just another influenza vaccine containing only additives we are already familiar with.


Familiar with because we know now that it causes Autism.

[MetalMilitia]

The most commonly used vaccine preservative is called Thimerosal. Here’s what the FDA has to say about it: (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228) “Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal-containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines. Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine.”

In other words, ‘we know it’s dangerous; So dangerous that we are trying to reduce it or remove it completely from vaccines. But we’re going to go ahead and put it in flu vaccine.’ And of course that includes the swine flu vaccine. And it is in there, I read the label.

Thimerosal is nearly 50% mercury. Now, there is mercury and then there is mercury. Organic mercury – that contained in Thimerosal – is more dangerous than inorganic mercury, as it tends to hang around in the body longer. How dangerous is it?

According to one report (http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html), “In 1977, a Russian study found that adults exposed to ethylmercury, the form of mercury in thimerosal, suffered brain damage years later. Studies on thimerosal poisoning also describe tubular necrosis and nervous system injury, including obtundation, coma and death. As a result of these findings, Russia banned thimerosal from children's vaccines in 1980. Denmark, Austria, Japan, Great Britain and all the Scandinavian countries have also banned the preservative.”

So, basically, we have a vaccine that may not be needed, that was manufactured in a such a hurry by mega-corporations that the government has exempted them from liability, that hasn’t been adequately tested, and that contains a known poison.

What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228
http://www.examiner.com/x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2009m8d27-Thimerosal-organic-mercury-swine-flu-and-you

[uki]

The most commonly used vaccine preservative is called Thimerosal. Here’s what the FDA has to say about it: (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228) “Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal-containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines. Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine.”

In other words, ‘we know it’s dangerous; So dangerous that we are trying to reduce it or remove it completely from vaccines. But we’re going to go ahead and put it in flu vaccine.’ And of course that includes the swine flu vaccine. And it is in there, I read the label.

Thimerosal is nearly 50% mercury. Now, there is mercury and then there is mercury. Organic mercury – that contained in Thimerosal – is more dangerous than inorganic mercury, as it tends to hang around in the body longer. How dangerous is it?

According to one report (http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html), “In 1977, a Russian study found that adults exposed to ethylmercury, the form of mercury in thimerosal, suffered brain damage years later. Studies on thimerosal poisoning also describe tubular necrosis and nervous system injury, including obtundation, coma and death. As a result of these findings, Russia banned thimerosal from children's vaccines in 1980. Denmark, Austria, Japan, Great Britain and all the Scandinavian countries have also banned the preservative.”

So, basically, we have a vaccine that may not be needed, that was manufactured in a such a hurry by mega-corporations that the government has exempted them from liability, that hasn’t been adequately tested, and that contains a known poison.

What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228
http://www.examiner.com/x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2009m8d27-Thimerosal-organic-mercury-swine-flu-and-youit's amounting to people being forced to poison themselves... no conspiracy here folks - why ever would anyone want to force someone to harm themselves? never happened in historical contexts... :vbroll:

[lycanox]

It was not eradicated. Health professionals say the "threat did not materialize."
Not that many people were even vaccinated.
Which could only have happened in quarantine was successful and the pathogen was wiped out in the wild.

As they simply dont simply vanish on their own.



Some flus just aren't dangerous and they never were going to be....like the swine flu.
Again, it killed people. Thus it is dangerous.



Not as many as died form GB. And no, lot's of people didn't die from the flu either.
Neither did lot of people die on the first day of world war 2. Or in the first minutes of the 911 terror attacks.

Stop pretending that you can predict whether or not a pathogen is dangerous or not. The WHO cant despite having a huge chain of laboratories.

So you, a mere poster on the Internet. Definitely cant.


STOP being paranoid. If you wan't to start a conspiracy thread about how dangerous swine flu is....go to the conspiracy section. This section does not require your false opinion that swine flu is even remotely dangerous.
If anything deserves to be in the conspiracy section. It is all that Vaccines are dangerous and the flue not. Nonsense.


Who are you to make that judgment?
And yes, the director deserved to be fired because he released an untested vaccine that hurt more people than it saved.
A couple of people.


The PURPOSE of a vaccine is to prevent a threat, not create a new one.

At THAT rate, we are going to need vaccines to save us from vaccines.

ONE person? It was a BIT more than that, and you know it.


Again vaccine casualties. A couple.
Flue casualties a couple of thousands.

Conclusion. The flue is dangerous. Vaccines are not.

You are proposing a idea that would kill thousands of peoples. Based on a severely over hyped side effect.



You obviously think 3,900 people dieing from swine flu in six months is allot. And that's great.
But in 1976 over 1000 people got GB. So if you think a small number like 3,900 in 2009 is allot, why are you then comparing over 1000 people getting GB in 1976 as a "small chance."
You however seem to suggest that 3600 and an increasing number are dying are not a big deal. And that treatening people for it is evil.


Provide a statistic please that proves seasonal flu vaccines bring GB too.




Which is why you are not in the medical field (thankfully).


Because by that logic taking the seasonal flu vaccine would protect you from the swine flu.

Is that true? Absolutely not. Taking a seasonal flu vaccine is not even claimed to prevent swine flu.
You absolutely have no idea how flue viruses behave over time. Do you?



The difference is....an extremely harmless disease is having a vaccine sold for it that has a small chance of giving you GB.

The chances of dieing from GB are estimated to be one in 100,000. The chances of dieing from swine flu are one in 10 million.
And what is your source for that bullshit figure for flue.
If your number was even remotely correct. Flue would only rarely kill in the US. Yet it kills thousands of people each year.



That is correct, you need to 1. stop hyping it. 2. don't blow it out of proportion.
It has killed only 3,900 people worldwide in SIX MONTHS. That is absolutely NOTHING.
Again suggesting that people dieng of a decease should be ignored?

And, 3600 people have already died of the flue. Not only.
The death tole is set to increase greatly in the next 5 years.




You need to take your argument to the conspiracy section because it absolutely does not belong here.
That is for me to decide, not you.



Pencils kill people. So does the common cold. So we should then quarantine people who get the common cold under a penalty of 2 years? Where exactly are you coming from lycanox?
We do quarantine people for the common flue when we have reason to believe they have something more severe than common flue.



You have physical problems? Are you obese? If that is the case then maybe you should take a shot.

But keep in mind, the chances of dieing from GB are a bit higher. You have a 1/100,000 chance in dieing from GB.
And you have a 1/10,000,000 chance of dieing from swine flu.[/QUOTE]
Source please for that bullshit number.


Swine flu just isn't dangerous. Look how many people died from it out of how many people got it.
People died of it thus it is not dangerous.

Where the hell did you learn that logic fallacy.


The fact that health professionals are in disagreement over what causes GB. I'm not going to debate with you about what causes the disorder, all I can say is that outbreaks of GB have followed vaccinations--particularly so in swine flu.
Again, they have also occured in people with no vaccine history.



But GB outbreaks, for whatever reason (and medical people aren't in agreement as to why this is) have followed swine flu vaccinations more than any normal flu vaccination.
Source please.



Nobody is suggesting any such thing.



GB is not a communicable disease.

So now YOU are suggesting you can get diabetes from being "sneezed" on...

I am not. You can get a GBs from an infection that occurs after being sneezed on.
As GBS is caused by infections.


When the vaccine is probably more dangerous than the disease itself....I would say yes. Don't do it.
Again, only in your fantasy world this is the case.


Look how many people died from the disease? People who were already sick died. LMAO.
Conclusion. People that are already sick need a vaccine.


Stop making it sound like it is a pandemic. It is not anywhere near it.
It already has been a pandemic for a couple of months now according to the WHO.


Actually? It has hit poor countries in the Americas very hard. And how many people have died in the latin americas from swine flu over the course of SIX MONTHS? Uh, about 3000.
Again. Only in the first wave.
And South america is not nearly in the same bad state as Africa is.


How many people die in the US alone of the NORMAL flu in ONE month? Uh, 3000.
Proving that the flue is dangerous. And that people thus should get medical help for it.


So...


So you are saying quarantining someone for having a disease as harmless as the cold at the penalty of 2 years is....okay? What?
The problem with quarantine is that it is done when doctors dont know yet what kind of decease the person has.

So your whole point is pointless.



Yes, you quarantine people for dangerous diseases that kill allot of people. Swine flu is not a dangerous disease. Syphilis kills more people. Maybe we should quarantine people with syphilis?
You also quarantine people for unknown diseases. Like those caused by possible mutated flue strains.



What's there to even prevent? I have a greater chance of dieing while I'm driving than from dieing from a desease as harmless as swine flu.
And again suggesting that people dieng due to the decease should thus be ignored.


Please take your discussion to the conspiracy section if you want to talk about swine flu being dangerous.
Again, you dont dictate me on this matter.
Come back with that when the WHO actually agrees with your nonsense.


(Which is ironic, considering you have apparently moved threads before that you deemed "conspiratorial" yet you are being incredibly paranoid).
Actually the majority of that stuff was because they made the claims you made.



Why should we let them die? I agree. We should not let them. But you are blowing swine flu out of proportion.
Those people ARE NOT going to die from the swine flu. I repeat, they will not even die from the swine flu.
Then why are they dying of swine flue?


What the REAL question you should be addressing, is why people should be allowed to drive when that threat is 10 times that of swine flu.
You are the one telling that people should not do something becouse of an even smaller risk.
So please answer your own question.


Prove it/source.
Already did a while back.


Because you cannot get GB from being sneezed on. There is no evidence to even suggest as much.
You can only get GBS from infections. You can get an infection from being sneezed on. Do the math.



If it was such "bullshit" why did over a thousand get it in 1976?
There is no evidence that all of those cases were vaccine related. And millions of people were vaccinated.


And if it was such bullshit why is the CDC worried about it?
If it is such a big deal, then why did CDC approve the vaccine.



WHY are people in high places having second thoughts?

And they were scapegoats fired to please the public until further research was completed.
The WHO has later concluded that the chance of actually getting GBS from vaccines is so remote that it can be neglected.
The chance of getting it is about as remote as dieing from swine flu.

So I ask you...if you would get the vaccine to keep from getting a disease that barely kills anyone. Why not, on the same token, NOT get a vaccine to keep from getting a disorder like GB that has a very small risk of killing you as well?

Both are completely harmless. I wan't you, lycanox, to think about every argument you can as to why people should take the vaccine.
And now use every argument to show why people should not take the vaccine because of the risk for GB.

You see? Both risks are so negligible that there is as much cause to take the vaccine as there is to NOT take it.
Can we agree on that then? Because neither of them are honestly that much of a risk.
[/QUOTE]
Only in your fantasy world an decease that has already killed thousands of people in the first couple of months of its existence is not dangerous.


When you say "worldwide" and you say "thousands" and you say "pandemic" and you say "six months."

YOU are being a scaremonger.
If swine flu was actually dangerous it would have killed AT LEAST 100,000 people worldwide by now. But it hasn't even killed 5,000.
Bullshit reasoning. The virus has just began to kill people.

Its like claiming that WW2 is no big deal because on day one. Only a couple of people died.


But as it stands, swine flu is about as likely to kill you as the seasonal flu.
And as a matter of fact, we vaccinate people for the swine flue. In fact, we vaccinate people for even rarer deceases than the flue.



Just because it has killed thousands of people on the globe does not make it dangerous in the least. It's considerably less dangerous than cars even.
Only you would call something that killed only a couple of thousands people not dangerous.


I already proved that wrong. The chance of getting GB is higher than 1 in a million.You failed however that the chance of getting it is not neglectable.



Read the link in my previous post. For your statistic to be true OVER A BILLION PEOPLE in the US would have had to be vaccinated.
But for one, the US doesn't even have a billion people, and in 1976 our whole population wasn't even vaccinated.


So take your conspiracy theories....to the conspiracy section.


Right...Thank you for giving me this opportunity to feel amused.

For your statistics to be true. No person would never die of the flue.
And crashing planes in the WTC is absolutely not dangerous to peoples health.


You are telling a joke? "Stop eating and breathing."
If you are crying murder about something as rare as GBS from vaccines. And that people should thus not take a vaccine even if their live dependend on it.
You also should stop eating and breating. As the chance of getting sick because of that is even larger than the risk of GBS.


Are you trying to be an idiot?

Pencils kill people. So does the common cold. We should put people with the common cold into quarantine right?



No. SOURCES PLEASE.

Provide sources that prove that "every doctor recognizes the threat."

Why is that not true? Well for ONE Mez just made a post about how Canadian health professionals don't want to vaccine in Canada necessarily.

And yet they are health care professionals...
[/QUOTE]
No person smart enough to pass medical school would call something that kills 3000 people and severely sickens even more.
Not dangerous. And that people that are at high risk do not need extra protection.



Or they could not take the vaccine and live just as long. You need to stop being a paranoid con artist and wake up to the fact that swine flu is 10 times LESS dangerous than driving in automobiles.

Yet those same old people you want to "protect" (not to mention they haven't been labeled as a high risk group) drive cars.
Are you now suggesting that old people that drive cars should avoid medical help?



Correction: The FDA allowed the vaccine on Sept. 15.

And the CDC is having second thoughts about it.


Hyping what? GB? I already know the risk of GB is low, but hell, so is the risk for swine flu.
So if you are going to blow all kinds of shit out of proportion (like swine flu) I can turn right back at ya and use your logic to suggest that we should fear GB.

AND IT IS THE CDC THAT IS HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS IN LIGHT OF GUILLAIN-BARRE. NOT ME.
Then why is the CDC recommending people to take the vaccine.



No, it is not outdated. Because 1976 wasn't even that long ago. Diseases behave the same way then as they do now.

Flue doesn't stay the same due to antigen shift and drift.

For crying out loud. If you are going to make those huge mistakes. You really have no idea what you are talking about.


You KEEP saying "let people die" as if swine flu is actually a threat.
It is.

There are over 6 billion people on this planet. 3,900 died from swine flu in six months.

And 40,000 died from SEASONAL flu in ONE month.

Now, tell me, what percentage of 6.5 billion is "3,900?" It's not very much is it? It's been half a year now and a small percentage have died.

So would you kindly stop being overly melodramatic by saying "let people die" when it is clear that the chance of you dieing from swine flu is simply just too low.

So how much people should we allow a virus to kill before we start saving people for it. 5000, 10.000. A million?


It's pretty unreasonable to quarantine for something as harmless as the cold.




Then obviously swine flu is NOT a pandemic flu, because it kills less people than seasonal flu.
All seasonal flues was pandemic flue once during their existence.

In fact, the seasonal flue of today is nothing more than the leftovers of Spanish flue, and hong kong flue. Decades after they peaked when they first emerged.



The nazis weren't a virus. The comparison is ridiculous, if not a bit funny.
However by your logic. An hyped thread that should have been ignored due to the low amount of known casualties in the first day of the war.


In the 9/11 attacks 2000 people died in the period of a few hours.

With swine flu 3,900 people died over a period of six MONTHS.

In the first seconds of the 911 attacks. Only a couple of pilots were killed.

Get it.



And why exactly are you comparing 9/11 to a flu pandemic?
Becouse your knowledge on medical matters appear so little that I decided not even to bother to use that.


If you want to call swine flu a pandemic...go to the conspiracy section and make a thread about it.
Otherwise...
You dont decide about that. I do.

Come back when you get the WHO to agree with you.




I beg to differ. *1,000>2

It was more than a couple people lycanox. If it was only a couple people the National Immunization Program wouldn't have been SUSPENDED and the CDC director FIRED.
Whish like i already explained. overreacted.



Familiar with because we know now that it causes Autism.

There is more evidence (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003673,00.html) that they dont, than that they do.

The fact that this claim is constantly being repeated shows that the anti vaccine movement has little interest in real science.

[MetalMilitia]

Supporters of a link between thiomersal and autism cite several lines of reasoning for their concerns, including:

* Appeal for caution: precise thresholds for ethylmercury toxicity have not been fully studied, and methylmercury is a poor surrogate for studying the toxicity of thiomersal.

- http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7712/7712.html
- http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7712/7712.html

* In vitro tests: cultured cells in laboratory show adverse effects when exposed to ethylmercury.

- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W81-4DF44GF-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9c1603059b1f7fc5e200f1b18695bf90

* An in vivo study reported in 2004 that autoimmune disease-sensitive mice exposed to thiomersal had growth delay, reduced locomotion, exaggerated response to new stimuli, and uncommon neuronal structure in some brain areas. The exposure attempted to replicate the one-year schedule for U.S. infants in 2001, adjusted for weight and age. However, these results could not be replicated; a 2007 study by another group using the same mouse strain found no pervasive developmental neurotoxicity. Also, a 2009 study reported that male rats are more susceptible to thiomersal poisoning than female.

- http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n9/abs/4001529a.html
- http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/2/294
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7GJ4-4TC2RW8-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7d080be88c3f70be712dd1f4395ff9e7

* Unscientific reports that autism is rarer in the Amish community and other non-vaccinated groups. The reports are undercut by the fact that Amish genes may differ from those in the general community, that people in the Amish community have low exposures to many other potential hazards (for example, pesticides and plastics) and that increasingly, the Amish do receive at least some vaccinations.

- http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2007/07/18/The-Age-of-Autism-The-last-word/UPI-57611184777255/

Bar chart versus time. The graph rises steadily from 1996 to 2007, from about 0.7 to about 5.3. The trend curves slightly upward.
Reports of autism cases per 1,000 children grew dramatically in the U.S. from 1996 to 2007. It is unknown how much, if any, growth came from changes in autism's prevalence.

- http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/114-7/focus.html

* Epidemiologic data: a series of epidemiologic studies coauthored by Mark Geier claimed a population-level correlation between thiomersal and autism.[33] An article in the journal Pediatrics found these epidemiologic studies to suffer from numerous fundamental methodological flaws which bias and invalidate their claims. The dramatic increase in reported cases of autism during the 1990s and early 2000s is largely attributable to changes in diagnostic practices, referral patterns, availability of services, age at diagnosis, and public awareness; it is unknown whether autism's true prevalence increased during the period.

- http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793
- http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/08035250410023124

* Concern that mercury might have synergistic effects with other metals and toxicants.

- http://www.uniklinik-freiburg.de/iuk/live/forschung/publikationen/Mutter_Autism_NEL.pdf

There's a reason the CDC and the AAP asked the makers of drugs to remove the shit from vaccines... MORE THAN A DECADE AGO.

"Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999"

Swine flu vaccine seemingly didn't get the message. At least educate yourself on what you're sticking in your body - that's the entire point of the thread. Take it or not, it's your choice.

If you trust your body and are healthy, I saw fuck the vaccine - this flu is less dangerous than seasonal as it stands - just take care of yourself - whatever the choice.

[MetalMilitia]

They have stopped vaccinations with that batch. And are starting a investigation whether or not something went wrong in production.
Just like you occasionally hear with food products and the like.
(Which kill even more people each year.)

But at the moment, there is no reason to believe that the vaccine itself is unsafe. As the exaggerated response of the body is only seen in that particular group of people. And not in the entire community.

Besides, Cancer kills or ruins the lives of more girls each year than the vaccine does.

Whoops!


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/131817/Jab-as-deadly-as-the-cancer-




THE cervical cancer vaccine may be riskier and more deadly than the cancer it is designed to prevent, a leading expert who developed the drug has warned.

She also claimed the jab would do nothing to reduce the rates of cervical cancer in the UK.

Speaking exclusively to the Sunday Express, Dr Diane Harper, who was involved in the clinical trials of the controversial drug Cervarix, said the jab was being “over-marketed” and parents should be properly warned about the potential side effects.


:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

This is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.... people using untested and risky vaccines - and anything with mercury - particularly Thiomersal, need to know the potential side effects.

Well - I guess in this case the side effect was deaths.... That's a pretty severe one, eh?

[lycanox]

However those tests mean nothing. As no elevated amount of autism has ever been detected in huge populations that take vaccines compared with populations that dont take vaccines. There is thus no reason to find weird chemical in vaccines that could cause autism. As we already know the vaccine doesn't cause it.
And it is pointless to seek an reason for a problem that does not exist.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003673,00.html

Another thing, the sharp increase of detections of autism has nothing to do with vaccines. But with the improvement of the detection of Autism.
And the reason why that substance was removed was simply because they had alternatives at that time and wanted to ease peoples mind. And not the information we have today.

As for the whole educate yourself issue.
Medical decisions should not be made based on information one finds on the Internet on a forum.
But with actual medical information supplied by an expert source on the matter.

And educating yourself does also not mean believing everything you hear.
There is also something as judging information on their worth.

[lycanox]

Whoops!


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/131817/Jab-as-deadly-as-the-cancer-



:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

This is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.... people using untested and risky vaccines - and anything with mercury - particularly Thiomersal, need to know the potential side effects.

Well - I guess in this case the side effect was deaths.... That's a pretty severe one, eh?

Just a idiot trying to milk an tragic event where a girl dies of unrelated issues
to market a books by yelling conspiracy over the autopsy.

And the doctor that is debating the effectiveness of a vaccine compared with the effects of a decease is talking about an entire different vaccine for an different disease. And is a lot more positive about the vaccinations than that you seem to think.


Data Are "Overwhelmingly Positive"

"That is why we do randomized clinical trials," he continued, "and it is very important that 2 separate large clinical-trial programs with 2 different products have come to very similar conclusions." (The other HPV vaccine, Cervarix [GlaxoSmithKline], is not available in the United States but is marketed elsewhere in the world). Dr. Markman pointed out that he has no links with either manufacturer.

"The data are overwhelmingly positive that this is an extremely safe and extremely effective vaccine," he said.

However, Diane Harper, MD, professor of community and family medicine/obstetrics and gynecology at Dartmouth Medical School, in Hanover,New Hampshire, and director of the Gynecologic Cancer Prevention Research Group at the Norris Cotton Cancer Center, is more circumspect. Dr. Harper, who was involved in clinical trials with both HPV vaccines, commented during an interview, "Serious adverse events reported do happen, but in small numbers of women being vaccinated, and some of these events may be so rare that they will never be directly linked to the vaccine."

Dr. Harper notes that she has received money from both Merck and GlaxoSmithKline for consultation about and conducting clinical trials on the HPV vaccines. "This is a good vaccine and it is generally safe," she said.

Vaccine Is Only Part of the Story

However, there is also another very important part to the cervical cancer prevention story, Dr. Harper said, and that is regular Pap tests. Even women who are vaccinated need to have regular Pap testing, as otherwise they are still at risk of developing cervical cancer. And women who decide not to have the vaccine can still protect themselves by undergoing Pap testing.

Dr. Harper feels this message has not been made clear to the general public and that it has been overshadowed by what she considers to be aggressive and inappropriate promotion of Gardasil. As a gynecologist dealing with the general population, her advice on the HPV vaccine is that "if you are at all concerned, then don't have the vaccine — have regular Pap smears and you will be equally protected from cervical cancer."

She continued, "Whether or not to get vaccinated with Gardasil is a personal choice by each girl/woman and/or her parents." Each individual must weigh her family health history and whether it may put her at any possible risk for an adverse event that Gardasil might trigger (not even necessarily cause). As examples, Dr. Harper mentioned family history of motor neuron disease or autoimmune diseases, which could affect how the person reacts to the vaccine. She illustrated this point by saying: "Salt does not usually kill anybody, but for a person with congestive heart failure, it could lead to fatal pulmonary edema, so you could say that salt caused their death, as it was the last straw that broke the camel's back."


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/578110

[MetalMilitia]

Just a idiot trying to milk an tragic event where a girl dies of unrelated issues
to market a books by yelling conspiracy over the autopsy.

THE cervical cancer vaccine may be riskier and more deadly than the cancer it is designed to prevent, a leading expert who developed the drug has warned.

The person that DEVELOPED it is not a batshit source.... Are you serious? This is the DEVELOPER... not someone trying to sell anything ( OTHER THAN THE GODDAMN VACCINE)

-1 for lack of reading skills.


And is a lot more positive about the vaccinations than that you seem to think.

Where? The part where the vaccine supposedly kills as many as it would prevent? That's some retarded logic.



As for the whole educate yourself issue.
Medical decisions should not be made based on information one finds on the Internet on a forum.
But with actual medical information supplied by an expert source on the matter.

So the developer and expert on that cancer vaccine isn't a good source? Along with a credited UK news paper publishing her words?


And educating yourself does also not mean believing everything you hear.
There is also something as judging information on their worth.

Then turn that around on the h1n1 vaccine.

As for "some forum" or "internet chatter" - It's not a conspiracy when you watch people die from unproven medicine.

Next time you scrape your knee, do what they did in the old day. Rub it with mercury.... see how well it works.

You keep trying to make this point that we're "so advanced" in terms of medicines and vaccines - and then never admit when medical professionals fuck up. Releasing untested vaccines is not cool, I don't care if they contained gummy bears and m&m's, untested is unsafe. It's all good though, this week the kids in the UK start getting it earlier than the rest of the world, I don't want anything to happen to them (yes im a monster, but not that big)

If you don't learn from history (aka 1976) and even now - with that cancer drug, when the hell will you? The h1n1 is dangerous, the vaccine is untested and contains some questionable materials. You just have a serious delusion about how far advanced you think we are - while at the same time releasing products to the public that has the potential to cripple / kill them.

At least I can admit vaccines work, and hey - in some cases - good thing! Hoo-fucking-ray!!!!

...But you are just being a stubborn asshat that thinks it's all some conspiracy NOT to want to inject yourself with mercury / thiomersal. I think my body would pull me through, considering it's proven less fatal than seasonal (which i rarely get, and really don't care about) - so fuck the vaccine.

Not needed for me.

That is the point of this thread, not some BS whackjob conspiracy.

[uki]

*is wondering if it would be ethical to kick lycanox while he is down*

[lycanox]

THE cervical cancer vaccine may be riskier and more deadly than the cancer it is designed to prevent, a leading expert who developed the drug has warned.

The person that DEVELOPED it is not a batshit source.... Are you serious? This is the DEVELOPER... not someone trying to sell anything ( OTHER THAN THE GODDAMN VACCINE)

-1 for lack of reading skills.
They are talking about two people in the article. Not one.
One is the person you are talking about. The other is the person I was talking about.


Where? The part where the vaccine supposedly kills as many as it would prevent? That's some retarded logic.

So the developer and expert on that cancer vaccine isn't a good source? Along with a credited UK news paper publishing her words?

She only claims that the vaccine is in her view a bit pointless on the bigger picture.
She is not claiming that the vaccine is dangerous and should be avoided like the pest.

And is just giving out more information so the people can make a more informed choice.


Then turn that around on the h1n1 vaccine.
For what reason. They are two different vaccines for completely different diseases.

That M&M pills dont cure the common cold. Does not mean that antibiotic pills also don't cure long infections.



As for "some forum" or "internet chatter" - It's not a conspiracy when you watch people die from unproven medicine.
It is also not a conspiracy that people are dying out there due to swine flue. And that there are huge risk groups out there.
That are scared away from important medical aid.



Next time you scrape your knee, do what they did in the old day. Rub it with mercury.... see how well it works.
Your point is? Every chemical is both a medicine and a poison.

The discussion was whether or not vaccines cause autism. Not whether or not Mercury is dangerous in a high enough when handled improperly.


You keep trying to make this point that we're "so advanced" in terms of medicines and vaccines - and then never admit when medical professionals fuck up. Releasing untested vaccines is not cool, I don't care if they contained gummy bears and m&m's, untested is unsafe. It's all good though, this week the kids in the UK start getting it earlier than the rest of the world, I don't want anything to happen to them (yes im a monster, but not that big)
However like pointed out earlier. The vaccines have been tested and approved.


If you don't learn from history (aka 1976) and even now - with that cancer drug, when the hell will you? The h1n1 is dangerous, the vaccine is untested and contains some questionable materials. You just have a serious delusion about how far advanced you think we are - while at the same time releasing products to the public that has the potential to cripple / kill them.

This is not the 1976 pandemic.
And this is not about scientific process, this is about scaremongering people away from essential medical treatment.
And weighting the pros versus the cons in a proper manor.


At least I can admit vaccines work, and hey - in some cases - good thing! Hoo-fucking-ray!!!!

...But you are just being a stubborn asshat that thinks it's all some conspiracy NOT to want to inject yourself with mercury / thiomersal. I think my body would pull me through, considering it's proven less fatal than seasonal (which i rarely get, and really don't care about) - so fuck the vaccine.

Not needed for me.

That is the point of this thread, not some BS whackjob conspiracy.
In my opinion most of those vaccine criticism is basically repeating already debunked claims and hyping side effects way out of proportion while severely underestimating the disease they prevent. Not rarely while showing a severe lack of medical knowledge.

And since it is important that people make a good informed decision about their health. Its important to counter any bullshit or overhyped claim when seen.

[uki]

And since it is important that people make a good informed decision about their health. Its important to counter any bullshit or overhyped claim when seen.especially anything that comes from the WHO.

from todays news...


Parents are reporting cases of autism at double the rate of the last U.S. government survey in 2003, prompting calls for more research and spawning doubts about the true number of children affected.


source (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/estimated-number-children-autism-doubles/story?id=8737978#)

perhaps they just need to look into the vaccination link instead of casting a blind eye like always...

[lycanox]

The increase of autism is purely due to a change in the detection method. Which result in even the smallest cases being marked as having the disease.

[Beatnik Bob]

Which could only have happened in quarantine was successful and the pathogen was wiped out in the wild.

As they simply dont simply vanish on their own.
Viruses have been popping up and vanishing for thousands "perhaps millions" of years.

Where do you think the spanish flu went? A vaccine got rid of it? lmao..

Which btw, the spanish flu wasn't as dangerous as the media is still making people believe:

BACTERIAL PNEUMONIA CAUSED MOST DEATHS IN 1918 INFLUENZA PANDEMIC. (http://www.nih.gov/news/health/aug2008/niaid-19.htm)


Again, it killed people. Thus it is dangerous.
The common cold is dangerous too. There are levels of danger, lycanox.


Neither did lot of people die on the first day of world war 2. Or in the first minutes of the 911 terror attacks.
Why are you comparing WWII or 9/11 to decide whether a flu is a pandemic or not?

The swine flu has done nothing to even remotely suggest it is a pandemic. In order to be a pandemic, we should be seeing some higher numbers after six whole months.


Stop pretending that you can predict whether or not a pathogen is dangerous or not.
You are the one saying it is dangerous. I am not making ANY predictions. I am stating ACTUAL FIGURES. What do YOU have?

In six months: only 3,900 have died worldwide. And in ONE DAY cancer takes 1,500 americans.
STOP being a fearmonger. It's really tiresome to see paranoia like yours spreading misinformation about swine flu.

It is hardly dangerous. It kills a small amount of people, sure, but on a scale from 1-10, 10 being an actual pandemic like the 1918 spanish flu.

Swine flu is about a 2. Maybe a 1.8.


The WHO cant despite having a huge chain of laboratories.
Well, the WHO is obviously overhyping the swine flu a bit. Because it is probably the nicest flu you could ask for.
Given: no flu is ever nice, but swine flu is probably one of the few flu strains that is pretty benign.

3,900 in six months worldwide is nowhere near a pandemic. In six DAYS more die from cancer.


So you, a mere poster on the Internet. Definitely cant.
And what are you? A mere poster who is saying the swine flu is dangerous? Based on WHAT?

And correction: I am a mere educated person who has just proved with NUMBERS statistics and FIGURES that the swine flu in SIX MONTHS has proven to be a very benign virus.

What have you provided? Executive statements prepared by OTHER people who have no numbers to back their regurgitated statements.


If anything deserves to be in the conspiracy section. It is all that Vaccines are dangerous and the flue not. Nonsense.
Well, then we don't have a problem. Because to my knowledge, nobody on AO has that opinion.

Only you have been over-hyping the danger of swine flu.


A couple of people.
You keep repeating that debunked statement^

Here is the link for you AGAIN: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/463869

A total of 1098 had an onset of GB. Does 1098=2? No, it does not.


Again vaccine casualties. A couple.
Flue casualties a couple of thousands.
Onset of GB over the course of FOUR months in 1976-1977: 1098
Swine flu casualties over the course of SIX months in 2009: 3900

So...1/4 of the number of people who have died in the 2009 swine flu got the paralyzing GB syndrome in 1976-1977.

Rethink your assumptions lyca.


Conclusion. The flue is dangerous. Vaccines are not.
Honestly? NEITHER are that dangerous. 1098 people aren't that many, neither is 3900...

The only risk is that you get vaccinated for a virus that poses a much smaller risk of fatal contraction than GB.


You are proposing a idea that would kill thousands of peoples. Based on a severely over hyped side effect.
What idea am I proposing? I am proposing nothing. I am merely providing some information for readers out there about the potential risks of taking the vaccine compared to the nearly equally low risk of dieing from the swine flu.

If people out there DO choose to not take the vaccine, the statistics are in high favor that they will not die from the swine flu. Afterall, only like one in 10 million die from swine flu.
Actually, the chances of you dieing from swine flu is even lower than that right now. I already got it. And I got over it, and now I have the natural immunity.
And like me, most people who got it, like the common cold, did not die.

And I also support vaccination testing, because with a virus with such a low risk level as swine flu, there IS a chance the vaccine could be more dangerous.
The possibility is enough to maybe need some testing.

Is that unreasonable? Considering the extremely low threat of swine flu, I think we have the time to verify the safety of the vaccine.


You however seem to suggest that 3600 and an increasing number are dying are not a big deal.
At an increasing number of about 600 people per month WORLDWIDE? That is an indicator of a very low risk disease.

You should stop blowing a disease that can only kill 600 people in a month worldwide out of proportion. And claiming that if a person chooses to not take the vaccine, that they could die.
You are claiming somehow that an Earth population of 6.5 billion is somehow at high risk of dieing from such a low risk disease? Go to the conspiracy section. Your argument doesn't belong here.

Unless you are fat or physically compromised in some way, you won't die from this flu.


And that treatening people for it is evil.
You are good at putting words in people mouths. You tried this tactic on me in the RFID thread, and I was tricked into it.

But no, I won't fall for the trick: treating people is not "evil."


You absolutely have no idea how flue viruses behave over time. Do you?
Do you?
I assume you are alluding to wintertime--"flu season."

Well, it is a fact that flu outbreaks occur most often in places with low solar radiation. So when daylight saving time begins, to avoid the added risk you can take VITAMIN D.

Not only does vitamin D counter the effects of flu outbreaks hastened by wintertime, but:
Vitamin D does not have mercury in it.
Vitamin D has not been linked with autism.
Vitamin D has never given 1098 people GB over a four month span.
For that matter, Vitamin D has never caused any percentage of GB.

Now, people can still choose the vaccine if they really wan't to. But Vitamin D and other tactics are a much healthier alternative with the same effect. The only difference is that you might have to get over the sickness yourself.

But that sounds a hell allot better alternative than risking much of the side-effects MetalMilitia has been bringing to light for us.


And what is your source for that bullshit figure for flue.
If your number was even remotely correct. Flue would only rarely kill in the US. Yet it kills thousands of people each year.
1. I sited "swine flu" not normal flu.

2. There are hundreds of millions of people in the US, so a 1 in a million chance for dying from swine flu still reaches the thousands. (On a "per month" comparison).

3. Out of the worldwide 3,900 figure, I believe it is less than 1000 americans that have died in six months from the swine flu. With most of the localized fatalities occuring in latin america due to MALNUTRITION more than anything else.

4. Where did I get my figures from? Well in six months 3,900 have died out of a population of 6.5 billion. The virus could indeed mutate, but because the disease is generally harmless and threats materialize few and far between, the mutation will make it more CONTAGIOUS but no more fatal. You will be more likely to GET it, and it will probably be an inconvenience, but not much more than that.

5. It is estimated that many people who have gotten swine flu since April never had any symptoms. So there's a chance YOU the reader got the disease (if you're an american reader) and it never caused any problems for you.

6. The spanish flu which actually WAS a pandemic killed 25 million in its first five months. Now compare this to to the 2009 swine flu strain, which kills less than 800 people per month.
There is no comparison is there? One was a pandemic, the other, clearly is not.


Again suggesting that people dieng of a decease should be ignored?
Nobody is ignoring it, but nobody is suggesting it be hyped to fearmonger either. Which is what you have been doing.

You even went as far as to compare swine flu to WWII, a war that in six months proved to be a terrible expense in the years to come--both financially and casualty wise.

Only a fearmonger would compare the swine COLD to WWII.


And, 3600 people have already died of the flue. Not only.
The death tole is set to increase greatly in the next 5 years.
It's unlikely it will still be here in 5 years.
And we have some much more important things to be worrying about. Like CANCER. Which kills MILLIONS.


That is for me to decide, not you.
You are, however, acting like a paranoid conspiracy theorist. Based on the set-up of the site. It would be much more fitting if you went to the conspiracy section to speculate on the "danger" of swine cold.


We do quarantine people for the common flue when we have reason to believe they have something more severe than common flue.
Well, be rest assured, swine flu is far from being more severe than the common flu.


People died of it thus it is not dangerous.

Where the hell did you learn that logic fallacy.
Well, people die from things every year. H1N1 is dangerous, sure.

But more dangerous than cancer? No. Cars? No. Rabies? No.

A pandemic? Hell no.


I am not. You can get a GBs from an infection that occurs after being sneezed on.
As GBS is caused by infections.
That is a hypothesis, yes. But because health professionals are divided on the subject, it would be safer to test the vaccine before it is released.


Again, only in your fantasy world this is the case.
You aren't in my fantasy world :D
Sorry.


Conclusion. People that are already sick need a vaccine.
Well, maybe. But I think they should be given the option of a healthier alternative.
But sure, sick people are really the ONLY people who need the vaccine. I can agree with that.


It already has been a pandemic for a couple of months now according to the WHO.
"According to the WHO."
Call me divergent but I look at the figures and statistics myself to discern the risk of the disease.

According to the numbers, the WHO has obviously misrepresented the risk of the swine cold.


Again. Only in the first wave.
If this were a pandemic we would know in the first wave. If the first wave is THIS pathetic, I have no reason to hold my breath for the second wave.

To see what a real pandemic is, I refer you to the spanish flu, where in the first wave millions were dying worldwide. Or even cancer.


And South america is not nearly in the same bad state as Africa is. Actually, because Africa receives much more solar radiation year-round they are, despite their poverty, at a much lower risk than many other parts of the globe I could name.

The only problem I can see threatening Africa is malnutrition. And they had that problem BEFORE the swine flu. Malnutrition would weaken their immune systems considerably.

Africa doesn't need questionable vaccines. Africa needs FOOD. What kind of divine irony is that, that you would give someone suffering from starvation a vaccine?
When in actuality, if they only had some good nutrition, they would be fine. Because they have all the vitamin D they need, as they are in a high-solar radiation area (a very GOOD thing).


Proving that the flue is dangerous. And that people thus should get medical help for it.
You have been very narrowly defining "medical help."
Do you constrict "medical help" to only refer to getting a vaccine that the CDC questions?


Again, you dont dictate me on this matter.
I don't claim t dictate anyone. In the end, you are going to have to make your own choices.
I'm just giving the numbers. The fact is simply: swine flu isn't a considerable danger.
And whenever you SAY it is, you are only being a fearmonger. The swine flu has a long way to go from being a pandemic.


Come back with that when the WHO actually agrees with your nonsense.
The WHO does not accurately portray the reality of the situation. And many medical health professionals have disagreed with the WHO's classification of the swine flu as a pandemic.

Based on the numbers and figures, it is safe to say that the WHO is incorrect in this instance.


Then why are they dying of swine flue?
Because someone dies from something does not indicate it has a high risk factor.
Single-digit (or even double-digit) thousands in the context of the world-population is hardly anything.

Over a thousand people die from cancer. PER DAY. If the medical industry should be directing their energies at anything right now, it should be cancer.


Already did a while back.
No. You did not.



You can only get GBS from infections. You can get an infection from being sneezed on. Do the math.
That is a highly disputed hypothesis, yes.

But even the hypothesis that suggests GB is due to a pathogen, does NOT suggest that you can get it from having the flu.

Because GB is not a communicable disease, in the sense that you cannot become "sick" with it in the way you can become sick with swine flu.

GB is a paralyzing disorder, and you do NOT get this type of disease from being sneezed on. It is possible to be infected VIA A WOUND with GB I believe. But to the best of my knowledge sneezing will not give you a scar where GB can "enter."
Assuming the hypothesis is correct.

And of course, neither sneezing, coughing (etc.) are symptoms of GB. So to suggest that you can store GB in the mucous of you nasal passages is somewhat....stupid.
Because GB does not affect the sinuses....

Your entire concept of GB is incorrect.


If it is such a big deal, then why did CDC approve the vaccine.
Again, the CDC has no authority in these matters. On Sept. 15 the FDA approved the vaccine.
As for the CDC...they are having second-guesses.

And why did the FDA approve it? Well, it's pretty easy to get something approved by the FDA.
Having been approved by the FDA does not mean it has been tested. Because it has NOT been tested to verify without a doubt.

If it HAD been tested beyond a doubt...I wonder why the CDC is concerned?


Only in your fantasy world an decease that has already killed thousands of people in the first couple of months of its existence is not dangerous.


Bullshit reasoning. The virus has just began to kill people.

Its like claiming that WW2 is no big deal because on day one. Only a couple of people died.


And as a matter of fact, we vaccinate people for the swine flue. In fact, we vaccinate people for even rarer deceases than the flue.


Only you would call something that killed only a couple of thousands people not dangerous.
Alright, all answered.


You failed however that the chance of getting it is not neglectable.
Incredibly low then.
It is definitely not a pandemic anyway.


For your statistics to be true. No person would never die of the flue.
And crashing planes in the WTC is absolutely not dangerous to peoples health.
Comparing 9/11 to the risk assessment of an influenza virus isn't relevant. Because with viruses you look at fatality ratios.

Look at the figures.


No person smart enough to pass medical school would call something that kills 3000 people and severely sickens even more.
It's dangerous, but not really. Most people who get it are going to get over it.


The problem, is that you are construing the swine flu figure to mean that everyone is at risk for the disease.
Everyone is not. The vast majority of people aren't going to be affected by this disease based on the figures.


Are you now suggesting that old people that drive cars should avoid medical help?
I realize English is your second language, but this sometimes gets annoying.


The fact that this claim is constantly being repeated shows that the anti vaccine movement has little interest in real science.
And the fearmongering swine flu hypers have no interest in actual figures and statistics.
Neither do they understand what constitutes a pandemic.
A disease that is about as dangerous as the common cold is not a pandemic. It kills people, yes, but so does the common cold kill people.

[lycanox]

[Viruses have been popping up and vanishing for thousands "perhaps millions" of years.

Where do you think the spanish flu went? A vaccine got rid of it? lmao..

Spanish flue is still around at this moment. Infact, the current Pandemic virus is a direct descendant of it.



Which btw, the spanish flu wasn't as dangerous as the media is still making people believe:
It still killed millions of people. And thus still require medical attention at that time.



BACTERIAL PNEUMONIA CAUSED MOST DEATHS IN 1918 INFLUENZA PANDEMIC. (http://www.nih.gov/news/health/aug2008/niaid-19.htm)
Which only killed them because the virus already weakened down to a large degree. Otherwise the patient would have a large chance of survival.

A similar mechanism as we currently see with AIDS. Which also killed very few people so far. But weakens the body to such degree that people die of other infections.


The common cold is dangerous too. There are levels of danger, lycanox.

And at what level do you believe we should stop ignoring people dieng and actually give them available medicines.


Why are you comparing WWII or 9/11 to decide whether a flu is a pandemic or not?
Becouse they are good examples.


The swine flu has done nothing to even remotely suggest it is a pandemic. In order to be a pandemic, we should be seeing some higher numbers after six whole months.
A pandemic is a state where a pathogen is spread around the world.
How deadly it is, has nothing to do with that classification.



You are the one saying it is dangerous. I am not making ANY predictions. I am stating ACTUAL FIGURES. What do YOU have?
And like I said before. Those Actual figures are predicted to increase a lot.


In six months: only 3,900 have died worldwide. And in ONE DAY cancer takes 1,500 americans.
STOP being a fearmonger. It's really tiresome to see paranoia like yours spreading misinformation about swine flu.
And again suggesting we should ignore people dieing.


It is hardly dangerous. It kills a small amount of people, sure, but on a scale from 1-10, 10 being an actual pandemic like the 1918 spanish flu.

Swine flu is about a 2. Maybe a 1.8.
So was Spanish flue during the first wave on your scale.



Well, the WHO is obviously overhyping the swine flu a bit. Because it is probably the nicest flu you could ask for.
Given: no flu is ever nice, but swine flu is probably one of the few flu strains that is pretty benign.And how exactly is a strain that kills people benign.


3,900 in six months worldwide is nowhere near a pandemic. In six DAYS more die from cancer.
Again, whether or not something is a pandemic has nothing to do with how dangerous it is.



And what are you? A mere poster who is saying the swine flu is dangerous? Based on WHAT?
Education. And reports from experts.


And correction: I am a mere educated person who has just proved with NUMBERS statistics and FIGURES that the swine flu in SIX MONTHS has proven to be a very benign virus.
You would probably claim that you have proved that Hitler was a nice guy by looking at casualty numbers. On the first day of world war 2 as well.

It takes at least 3 years untill we can make any accurate statement about whether or not this flue is dangerous or not.
For all we know the virus is still adapting to suit its human host.



What have you provided? Executive statements prepared by OTHER people who have no numbers to back their regurgitated statements.

Again, only because they aren't stupid enough to trust on numbers alone.


Well, then we don't have a problem. Because to my knowledge, nobody on AO has that opinion.
Then who is here constantly complaining about a very minor side effects.


Only you have been over-hyping the danger of swine flu.
Atleast I am not completely ignoring its threat.



You keep repeating that debunked statement^

Here is the link for you AGAIN: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/463869

A total of 1098 had an onset of GB. Does 1098=2? No, it does not.
Compared with the amount of people that have been vaccinated. It is.



Onset of GB over the course of FOUR months in 1976-1977: 1098
Swine flu casualties over the course of SIX months in 2009: 3900

So...1/4 of the number of people who have died in the 2009 swine flu got the paralyzing GB syndrome in 1976-1977.

Rethink your assumptions lyca.
On that bizzare number?




Honestly? NEITHER are that dangerous. 1098 people aren't that many, neither is 3900...

However the 1098 is going to remain the same over the next 5 years.
The number of Swine flue deaths is going to increase a lot.


The only risk is that you get vaccinated for a virus that poses a much smaller risk of fatal contraction than GB.
Not at all.



What idea am I proposing? I am proposing nothing. I am merely providing some information for readers out there about the potential risks of taking the vaccine compared to the nearly equally low risk of dieing from the swine flu.
No you are severely over hyping a side effect. While severely underestimating pandemic flue.


If people out there DO choose to not take the vaccine, the statistics are in high favor that they will not die from the swine flu. Afterall, only like one in 10 million die from swine flu.

Actually, the chances of you dieing from swine flu is even lower than that right now. I already got it. And I got over it, and now I have the natural immunity.
And like me, most people who got it, like the common cold, did not die.

The ratio in weakened people is a lot higher. Have you taken that into account? Not the entire population is perfectly healthy.



And I also support vaccination testing, because with a virus with such a low risk level as swine flu, there IS a chance the vaccine could be more dangerous.
That is laughable. The virus has already killed more people in the first wave. Than the vaccine ever will.



The possibility is enough to maybe need some testing.
Only reason testing is required now is to detect weird effects of combination. And whether or not the vaccine is effective.

Dont forget that we are not testing a completely new technology here.
Most of the effects a vaccine has can be predicted these days by just looking at the ingredients.

Its like baking a cake. You know that sugar, eggs and all those ingredients aren't dangerous. You know that when you last used the recipe, nobody got sick.

So why would there be a reason for the cake to suddenly kill everyone that eats it.


Is that unreasonable? Considering the extremely low threat of swine flu, I think we have the time to verify the safety of the vaccine.
A complete check of the vaccine for every side effect again. (Which includes the stuff we already know from other vaccines.) Takes years.
We dont have that time.



At an increasing number of about 600 people per month WORLDWIDE? That is an indicator of a very low risk disease.
Flue is unpredictable. That number could shoot up any time.


You should stop blowing a disease that can only kill 600 people in a month worldwide out of proportion. And claiming that if a person chooses to not take the vaccine, that they could die.
You are claiming somehow that an Earth population of 6.5 billion is somehow at high risk of dieing from such a low risk disease? Go to the conspiracy section. Your argument doesn't belong here.
At least, unlike you. I base my arguments on scientific research.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the virus is going to stay the same in the next 5 years.

Besides, 600 people a month are still 600 people that could potentially be saved by a vaccine.



Unless you are fat or physically compromised in some way, you won't die from this flu.
Unfortunately a lot of people fall in that category.


You are good at putting words in people mouths. You tried this tactic on me in the RFID thread, and I was tricked into it.

But no, I won't fall for the trick: treating people is not "evil."
Then why the whole criticism on the vaccine.


Do you?
I assume you are alluding to wintertime--"flu season."

Well, it is a fact that flu outbreaks occur most often in places with low solar radiation. So when daylight saving time begins, to avoid the added risk you can take VITAMIN D.

Not only does vitamin D counter the effects of flu outbreaks hastened by wintertime, but:
Vitamin D does not have mercury in it.
Vitamin D has not been linked with autism.
Vitamin D has never given 1098 people GB over a four month span.
For that matter, Vitamin D has never caused any percentage of GB.
I was talking about the behavior of flu virus strains over decades. Not seasonal flue.


Now, people can still choose the vaccine if they really wan't to. But Vitamin D and other tactics are a much healthier alternative with the same effect. The only difference is that you might have to get over the sickness yourself.

But that sounds a hell allot better alternative than risking much of the side-effects MetalMilitia has been bringing to light for us.


Vitamin D wont protect you from GBS induced by the swine flue itself.
Nor will it necessary safe people in a already weakened condition.

So for a lot of people. It is not really a good alternative.



1. I sited "swine flu" not normal flu.
Normal flue was pandemic flue.



2. There are hundreds of millions of people in the US, so a 1 in a million chance for dying from swine flu still reaches the thousands. (On a "per month" comparison).
Now check out the chance of dying in risk groups.



3. Out of the worldwide 3,900 figure, I believe it is less than 1000 americans that have died in six months from the swine flu. With most of the localized fatalities occuring in latin america due to MALNUTRITION more than anything else.
Actually at the first half of those six months, the virus was only limited to mexico.

And Mexico is not quite a third world country.



4. Where did I get my figures from? Well in six months 3,900 have died out of a population of 6.5 billion. The virus could indeed mutate, but because the disease is generally harmless and threats materialize few and far between, the mutation will make it more CONTAGIOUS but no more fatal. You will be more likely to GET it, and it will probably be an inconvenience, but not much more than that.
The WHO does not require people to be tested for H1N1 anymore. Meaning that that number is nowhere near from accurate.

And mutations can make a virus both more dangerous as contagious.



5. It is estimated that many people who have gotten swine flu since April never had any symptoms. So there's a chance YOU the reader got the disease (if you're an american reader) and it never caused any problems for you.
It is also possible that a lot of flue deaths in poorer region were missed.


6. The spanish flu which actually WAS a pandemic killed 25 million in its first five months. Now compare this to to the 2009 swine flu strain, which kills less than 800 people per month.
There is no comparison is there? One was a pandemic, the other, clearly is not.
The spanish fllue killed a lot less in its first 5 months. That number is closer to a more positive estimate of the total death count.

Both Swine flue and Spanish flue are/were pandemic according to the definition the rest of the world uses. .


Nobody is ignoring it, but nobody is suggesting it be hyped to fearmonger either. Which is what you have been doing.

You even went as far as to compare swine flu to WWII, a war that in six months proved to be a terrible expense in the years to come--both financially and casualty wise.

Only a fearmonger would compare the swine COLD to WWII.
That was not the argument.

The argument is that in the first days of the war. You would probably have claimed that the war is no big deal, is it hasn't killed a lot of people.



It's unlikely it will still be here in 5 years.
And we have some much more important things to be worrying about. Like CANCER. Which kills MILLIONS.
Swine flue will still be here in 5 years. And it will kill people that can be saved by vaccines.


You are, however, acting like a paranoid conspiracy theorist. Based on the set-up of the site. It would be much more fitting if you went to the conspiracy section to speculate on the "danger" of swine cold.
The conspiracy section is only for ideas not grounded in solid science.
And if you would read a medical book or two. You would have realize that I have not said anything controversal.



Well, be rest assured, swine flu is far from being more severe than the common flu.


Well, people die from things every year. H1N1 is dangerous, sure.

But more dangerous than cancer? No. Cars? No. Rabies? No.

And that is a reason to ignore it because?



A pandemic? Hell no.
Again, dont use terms if you dont know what they mean.



That is a hypothesis, yes. But because health professionals are divided on the subject, it would be safer to test the vaccine before it is released.

Further tests will not tell anything new. And CDC and WHO have already concluded that GBS is not severe enough to avoid vaccination.



You aren't in my fantasy world :D
Sorry.
Thank god.


Well, maybe. But I think they should be given the option of a healthier alternative.
But sure, sick people are really the ONLY people who need the vaccine. I can agree with that.
Thus scaring people away from them is not a good plan.



"According to the WHO."
Call me divergent but I look at the figures and statistics myself to discern the risk of the disease.

According to the numbers, the WHO has obviously misrepresented the risk of the swine cold.
What numbers. The one of the WHO?
Which clearly state that they dont keep an accurate track of it anymore?



If this were a pandemic we would know in the first wave. If the first wave is THIS pathetic, I have no reason to hold my breath for the second wave.
According to the three hypotheses this could just as easily mean that the virus is still adapting to its human host. Meaning that an increase of severity is nearly unavoidable.



To see what a real pandemic is, I refer you to the spanish flu, where in the first wave millions were dying worldwide. Or even cancer.
Please read up the definition to Pandemic.



Actually, because Africa receives much more solar radiation year-round they are, despite their poverty, at a much lower risk than many other parts of the globe I could name.
Mexico and other tropical countries receive also more solar radiation. Yet we saw huge outbreaks there.


The only problem I can see threatening Africa is malnutrition. And they had that problem BEFORE the swine flu. Malnutrition would weaken their immune systems considerably.

Africa doesn't need questionable vaccines. Africa needs FOOD. What kind of divine irony is that, that you would give someone suffering from starvation a vaccine?
When in actuality, if they only had some good nutrition, they would be fine. Because they have all the vitamin D they need, as they are in a high-solar radiation area (a very GOOD thing).
And with that, you completely forget other problems in the country.
Like a severe lack of doctors and hospitals. The HIV virus and so on.


You have been very narrowly defining "medical help."
Do you constrict "medical help" to only refer to getting a vaccine that the CDC questions?
The CDC has approved the vaccine.


I don't claim t dictate anyone. In the end, you are going to have to make your own choices.
I'm just giving the numbers. The fact is simply: swine flu isn't a considerable danger.
And whenever you SAY it is, you are only being a fearmonger. The swine flu has a long way to go from being a pandemic.
Again, read the definition of Pandemic.



The WHO does not accurately portray the reality of the situation. And many medical health professionals have disagreed with the WHO's classification of the swine flu as a pandemic.
I doubt it are actually a lot of people.



Based on the numbers and figures, it is safe to say that the WHO is incorrect in this instance.
Again, numbers aren't everything.


Because someone dies from something does not indicate it has a high risk factor.
Single-digit (or even double-digit) thousands in the context of the world-population is hardly anything.
It are still people dieing. While a cure is present.


Over a thousand people die from cancer. PER DAY. If the medical industry should be directing their energies at anything right now, it should be cancer.
Are again suggesting that we should ignore people that are dying.




That is a highly disputed hypothesis, yes.
Currently the most important hypothesis.


But even the hypothesis that suggests GB is due to a pathogen, does NOT suggest that you can get it from having the flu.
The flue virus is a pathogen.



Because GB is not a communicable disease, in the sense that you cannot become "sick" with it in the way you can become sick with swine flu.
But pathogens are communicable.


GB is a paralyzing disorder, and you do NOT get this type of disease from being sneezed on. It is possible to be infected VIA A WOUND with GB I believe. But to the best of my knowledge sneezing will not give you a scar where GB can "enter."
Assuming the hypothesis is correct.
GBS does not need a scar to enter.

Each time there is a infection. There is a theoretical risk of getting GBS
Infections can be transmitted.


And of course, neither sneezing, coughing (etc.) are symptoms of GB. So to suggest that you can store GB in the mucous of you nasal passages is somewhat....stupid.
Because GB does not affect the sinuses....

Your entire concept of GB is incorrect.
Actually yours is. You believe GBS as a disease that is caused by specific pathogens that cause GBS. Which is not the case as GBS is an autoimmune disorder. That is caused by a bad response by the immune system while it tries to clean up a pathogen.

Each infection causes an immune response. Each immune response has a chance of starting GBS in people that are vulnerable for it.


Again, the CDC has no authority in these matters. On Sept. 15 the FDA approved the vaccine.
As for the CDC...they are having second-guesses.

And why did the FDA approve it? Well, it's pretty easy to get something approved by the FDA.
Having been approved by the FDA does not mean it has been tested. Because it has NOT been tested to verify without a doubt.

If it HAD been tested beyond a doubt...I wonder why the CDC is concerned?
Actually the CDC recommends that vaccination of risk groups should begin as soon as possible.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/primarychanges.htm



Incredibly low then.
It is definitely not a pandemic anyway.
Again, read up the official definition of an pandemic.



Comparing 9/11 to the risk assessment of an influenza virus isn't relevant. Because with viruses you look at fatality ratios.

Look at the figures.


It's dangerous, but not really. Most people who get it are going to get over it.

When dealing with viruses and bacteria. Especially with the flue virus.
You however also deal with a lot of uncertainly.


The problem, is that you are construing the swine flu figure to mean that everyone is at risk for the disease.
Everyone is not. The vast majority of people aren't going to be affected by this disease based on the figures.

But what about the huge risk groups out there.


And the fearmongering swine flu hypers have no interest in actual figures and statistics.
You cant predict the further development of a pandemic by looking at statistics alone. There are a lot more variables.


Neither do they understand what constitutes a pandemic.
A disease that is about as dangerous as the common cold is not a pandemic. It kills people, yes, but so does the common cold kill people.
Again, read up the official definition of an pandemic.

[uki]

this is all sooooo fucking amusing...

A "perplexing" Canadian study linking the H1N1 virus to seasonal-flu shots is throwing the nation's influenza plans into disarray and straining public faith in the government agencies responsible for protecting Canada's health.
Distributed for peer review last week, the study confounded infectious-disease experts in suggesting that people vaccinated against seasonal flu are twice as likely to catch swine flu.

With the paper under review, its lead researchers must stay mum until it's published. So far, the study's impact is confined to Canada. Researchers in the United States, Britain and Australia have not reported the same phenomenon.

Met with intense early skepticism both in Canada and abroad, the paper has since persuaded several provincial health agencies to announce hasty suspensions of seasonal-flu vaccinations, long-held fixtures of publichealth planning.

"It has confused things very badly," said Dr. Ethan Rubinstein, head of adult infectious diseases at the University of Manitoba. "Until last week, there had always been much encouragement to get the seasonal-flu vaccine."

British Columbia announced yesterday that is suspending seasonal-flu shots for anyone younger than 65 years old, joining Quebec, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Nova Scotia in halting the immunizations.

"By the time the H1N1 wave is over, there will be ample time to vaccinate for seasonal flu," Rubinstein said.


from here (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2009/09/29/flu.html).

[lycanox]

Well, like the article stated. The research has yet to pass peer review. And its conclusions are severely doubted by practically everybody else.
So I would not make conclusions on it.

And it nowhere states that the H1N1 shots have been halted.

[AnneOminous]

So has anybody heard anything about teachers having mandatory vaccinations yet? I received a mandatory notice from one of the hospitals I work at...


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091007/D9B67SCG0.html

snippet--

This flu is a younger person's flu," Sebelius said on NBC's "Today" show. "Kids have no immunity to the flu ... children are great carriers of bugs and viruses."

Because of the danger of easy transmission, especially in school and day-care settings, Sebelius said, "We strongly urge parents to take precautionary steps. Flu kills every year ... and we've got a great vaccine to deal with it."

"There's going to be plenty of vaccine," the secretary said. "It's rolling off the production lines right now ... ahead of schedule, and that's good news... By the end of October we should have a substantial amount available and begin to vaccinate a wider population of folks."

Said Sebelius: "There's no question the disease is out there, which is why today we're rolling out PSAs (public service announcements) ... to make sure people take steps to help prevent the spread of the disease, and in the meantime we will push the vaccine out as quickly as we get it off the production lines."

Appearing on CBS's "The Early Show," she said the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the President's Advisory Committee on Immunizations have identified five target populations: pregnant women, health care workers, children with underlying health conditions ages 6 months to 24 years, older Americans with underlying health conditions.

"That's a lot of people," Sebelius said. "That's about half the population."

[medicvet]

There's no way I'm reading all of that.

I will just say I'm for damn sure not getting one.

[ryangti]

Round 2!
The second wave of the swine flu comes around again.
Where i am have seen an increase in cases and there was me thinking i would escape it!

The new pandemic of swine flu has killed 76 children in the United States since it emerged in April and is worsening, U.S. health officials said on Friday.
H1N1 is spreading in many states at a time when normally there is little or no influenza, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said.

Good news though there is enough vaccine for both swine flu and normal flu.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5984RT20091009

[MetalMilitia]

h1n1 - now so dangerous you can willingly buy it :)

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2205843/h1n1_flumist_the_nasal_spray_that_keeps.html?singl epage=true&cat=70


Everyone has to be responsible for their own decisions. If you are afraid of catching the H1N1 flu this year. You may be pondering whether to get a flu shot or using the H1N1 FluMist.

The FluMist is administered into your nostrils .Before making your final decision, you may want to ask some questions and think of some consequences to taking the H1N1 FluMist nasal spray.

The H1N1 FluMist is made with "live" virus. This means that the H1N1 flu will be a part of the nasal spray formula. It's supposed to be just enough to start your immunity to build defenses to it. The shot is supposed to be a killed virus.

If you take the H1N1 FluMist, you will in fact become a carrier of the H1N1 flu. Information on this drug states that you can and will shed the virus for up to 21 days. That means as you are visiting with your elderly family members, or shopping in the isles of your grocery store or sitting in church with young children and people with immune problems, YOU are going to be shedding the virus H1N1 germs.

Gotta word that differently.... "final decision" sounds so harsh.

[FindTheNest]

I work at a local elementary school. Letters/forms/permission slips/waivers were sent home to parents regarding the "free" flu shots (H1N1) (students only) that would be available at our site. Yesterday I received a (Not For Public Knowledge) email that stated the following:

"Subject: H1N1 vaccine update

We have received an update on our initial order. As you learned in our last meeting we were originally looking at about 68,000 doses. Then we learned a few weeks ago that was revised down to 16,000.

Today, we learned that our initial allottment has been reduced to 1,600 doses. This is not unique to xxxxxx County....everyone is affected.

To add to our concerns we are being shipped 1,000 doses of live vaccine and only 600 inactivated doses. We have not had many providers interested in live vaccine. Live vaccine is safe and effective but there is a much narrower window on who is eligible to recieve it...only persons age 2-49 with NO health conditions. Inactivated vaccine is for anyone 6 months of age and older and the ONLY contraindication is a history of Guilien Barre or a history of an anaphylactic reaction to eggs.



We have been told that if we do not receive the 1,000 doses of live vaccine, it will NOT be replaced with inactivated vaccine. Any live vaccine refused will be deducted from the allottment for our county. I have heard there are other counties who have had providers order NO live vaccine.

Not accepting vaccine when allottments have been reduced so drastcially puts our community at further risk for illness with H1N1.



We will be discussing this issue at length tomorrow and making decisions. We strongly urge healthcare workers and emergency personnel who are well, 49 years of age and younger, and who have no health comditions to please consider accepting live vaccine. While the decision is each individuals to make and vaccination is always voluntary, we would ask that both hospitals and EMS services open discussion with your employees.



H1N1 actviity is now widespread in Indiana and taking measures to ensure our front line emergency and healthcare workers are protected will greatly lessen a severe impact on medical services if we are confronted with increasing illnesses.



We have been assured that the supply is expected to increase very soon. However, at this time the state is making the orders for each county directly. We are not able to decide what we get. The decision lies with the state as they struggle to best respond in protecting Hoosiers.



I anticipate that we will prepare a statement for press release so that our community understands what is happening and that we are all working diligently to address any obstacles as they arise."

[FindTheNest]

additional emails stated:
"The Health Dept. memo re: supply of H1N1 vaccines is not for public knowledge or to be shared outside the school. All we can tell parents is for them to contact the Health Dept. if they have questions or concerns about vaccinations or timeliness of distribution."

"FYI – not looking like we will be getting any H1N1 shots very soon."

"It gets stranger and stranger…"

[uki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8riAeGh48U

whoa now... wonder how many more cases we'll see developing...

[lycanox]

Practically none as stories like those are pure scaremongering.
That woman could have shot herself in her head and the anti vaccine movement would have blamed it on the vaccine.

Anyway, it appears that the anti vaccine movement have won the quack of the year award.

Source. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spitsnieuws.nl%2Farch ives%2Ftech%2F2009%2F10%2Fen_de_kwakzalverprijs_ga at_naa.html&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[uki]

Practically none as stories like those are pure scaremongering.
That woman could have shot herself in her head and the anti vaccine movement would have blamed it on the vaccine. you fucking retard...


Anyway, it appears that the anti vaccine movement have won the quack of the year award. you're the quack of the century. ::):

[Tired Old Man]

*is wondering if it would be ethical to kick lycanox while he is down*

You need any ammo ? From lycanox profile.

" Evil microbiological scientist. "

[uki]

Anyway, it appears that the anti vaccine movement have won the quack of the year award.funny... i just found this (http://www.naturalnews.com/027239_vaccines_flu_vaccine_.html).

Prepare to have your world rocked. What you're about to read here will leave you astonished, inspired and outraged all at the same time. You're about to be treated to some little-known information demonstrating why seasonal flu vaccines are utterly worthless and why their continued promotion is based entirely on fabricated studies and medical mythology.

If the whole world knew what you're about to read here, the vaccine industry would collapse overnight.

This information comes to you courtesy of a brilliant article published in The Atlantic (November 2009). The article, written by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer, isn't just brilliant; in my opinion it stands as the best article on flu vaccines that has ever been published in the popular press. Entitled Does the vaccine matter?, it presents some of the most eye-opening information you've probably ever read about the failure of flu vaccines. You can read the full article here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/2009...

Perhaps its impressive narrative shouldn't be too surprising, though, since writer Shannon Brownlee is also the celebrated author of a phenomenal book on modern medicine entitled Overtreated: Why Too Much Medicine Is Making Us Sicker and Poorer (http://www.amazon.com/Overtreated-M...) (http://www.naturalpedia.com/book_Ov...).

While I've never done this before, I'm going to summarize this article point by point (along with some comments) so that you get the full force of what's finally been put into print.

This information is so important that I encourage you to share the following summary I've put together. Email it to family, friends and coworkers. Or post it on your blog or website (with a link and proper credit to both NaturalNews and The Atlantic, please). Get this information out to the world. People need to know this, and so far the mainstream media has utterly failed to make this information known.

(The really good information begins after around a dozen bullet points, so be sure to keep reading...)



Does the vaccine matter?
What follows is my point-by-point summary of this groundbreaking article by Shannon Brownlee, originally published in The Atlantic. My opinion statements are shown in brackets and italics.

• Vaccination is the core strategy of the U.S. government's plan to combat the swine flu.

• The U.S. government has spent roughly $3 billion stockpiling vaccines and anti-viral drugs.

• The CDC is recommending that 159 million Americans receive a swine flu vaccine injection (as soon as possible).

• What if vaccines don't work? More and more researchers are skeptical about whether they do.

• Seasonal flu (that's the regular flu) currently kills an estimated 36,000 people each year in the United States. [But most people who die are already suffering from existing diseases such as asthma.]

• Most "colds" aren't really caused by the flu virus. As few as 7 or 8 percent (and at most, 50 percent) of colds have an influenza origin. There are more than 200 viruses and pathogens that can cause "influenza-like" illnesses (and therefore be easily mistaken for the flu).

• Viruses mutate with amazing speed, meaning that each year's circulating influenza is genetically different from the previous year.

• The vaccine for each upcoming flu season is formulated by health experts taking a guess [a wild guess, at times] about what strain of influenza might be most likely to circulate in the future.

:angel:

[AnneOminous]

I mentioned in chat the other day that I was opting out of the flu vaccine and would notify concerned parties that were mandating it of my decision. Today I received a declaration they are asking me to sign... Some allow no such declaration or declination and are insisting I get the shot in order to continue conducting business at their facilities (hospitals). Here is a sample declination letter that was provided to me.

I acknowledge that I am aware of the following facts:

1. Influenza is a serious respiratory disease that kills an average of 36,000 persons and hospitalizes more than 200,000 persons in the United States each year.

2. Influenza vaccination is recommended for me and all other healthcare workers to prevent influenza disease and its complications, including death.

3. If I contract influenza, I will shed the virus for 24–48 hours before influenza symptoms appear. My shedding the virus can spread influenza infection to patients in this facility.

4.If I become infected with influenza, even when my symptoms are mild, I can spread severe illness to others.

5. I understand that the strains of virus that cause influenza infection change almost every year, which is why a different influenza vaccine is recommended each year.

6.I cannot get the influenza disease from the influenza vaccine.

7. The consequences of my refusing to be vaccinated could endanger my health and the health of those with whom I have contact, including:

• patients in this healthcare setting
• my coworkers
• my family
• my community

Despite these facts, I am choosing to decline influenza vaccination right now.

I understand that I may change my mind at any time and accept influenza vaccination, if vaccine is available.

Acknowledgements:
Representative Signature:_________________________________ Date:________________________

[uki]

solid foundations are not built on shifting mud...