Massive Black Hole Stumps Researchers

[MetalMilitia]

http://www.armageddononline.org/blackhole/index.php

http://a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d/www.space.com/images/hf_mm_blackholemystery_01.jpg

A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size, about 10 billion times the mass of the Sun.

Sitting at the heart of a distant galaxy, the black hole appears to be about 12.7 billion years old, which means it formed just one billion years after the universe began and is one of the oldest supermassive black holes ever known.

The black hole, researchers said, is big enough to hold 1,000 of our own Solar Systems and weighs about as much as all the stars in the Milky Way.

"The universe was awfully young at the time this was formed," said astronomer Roger Romani, a Stanford University associate professor whose team found the object. "It's a bit of a challenge to understand how this black hole got enough mass to reach its size."

Romani told SPACE.com that the black hole is unique because it dates back to just after a period researchers call the 'Dark Ages,' a time when the universe cooled down after the initial Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. That cooling period lasted about one billion years, when the first black holes, stars and galaxies began to appear, he added. The research appeared June 10 on the online version of Astrophysical Journal Letters.

Invisible to the naked eye, black holes can only be detected by the radiation they spew and their gravitational influence on their stellar neighbors. Astronomers generally agree that black holes come in at least two types, stellar and supermassive. Stellar black holes form from collapsed, massive stars a few times the mass of the Sun, while their supermassive counterparts can reach billions of solar masses.

A supermassive black hole a few million times the mass of the Sun is thought to sit at the center of our own Milky Way galaxy, and some of the largest supermassives seen date have reached up to two billion solar masses, researchers said.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/heavy_blazar_040628.html

One mistake Aristotle made was to toss an orange up in the air and watch it come straight back down to his hand. Aristotle reasoned that if he was moving, the orange would have flown off to one side as soon as it left his hand. Because the orange did not do so, Aristotle concluded he was not moving. On the basis of this one observed fact, and the assumption that there was no other explanation for what he observed, Aristotle concluded that the Earth does not move and that therefore the rest of the universe had to move around it.

Aristotle was a very sharp guy, but the fact is that there was another explanation for why the orange fell back into his hand, and it would wait about another 2000 years before another smart man, Sir Isaac Newton, explained just what it was Aristotle had overlooked, set forth in Newton's laws of motion.

We've come a long ways now haven't we fellows?

-MM- :crs:

[Bigsky770]

We've come a long ways now haven't we fellows?

- - -And we've yet so far to go. . . .

- - -Great article, Matt! :thumbs:

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[stewey]

That is one big ass black hole.

I am sure that a lot of what we "know" is not accurate, also, but yes we have come quite a ways.

[Red Shift]

So how often are black holes of this size encountered, is this one of the first?

[Susie]

Do they know how supermassive black holes form?

[MetalMilitia]

Black holes are amongst the universe's family of anomalies that we've just recently begun to understand in the recent decades. The term black hole was laid to claim by John Wheeler in 1969, yet the theory dates back over 200 years. In 1783, John Michell wrote a paper declaring that a star that was massive enough would have a gravitational influence so strong that light would not be able to escape its surface. He also believed there were a number stars like this in the universe, but because light could not escape their gravity they would just be black voids in space. Michell also conjectured that even though we could not see the stars' light we could feel their gravitational influence. It took 200 years before Michell?s theories could be put to the test, but it came.

More Info : http://www.armageddononline.org/blackhole/index.php

Yes, I am pluggin our own website... but that black holes article is a damn good read :D

-MM- :crs:

[Red Shift]

One of the theorys for the end of the universe is that all matter will be sucked into a huge black hole, a way of the big crush.

But get this, some scientists think if there ever is a big crush there may be a following big bang creating a universe completely different to ours with possibly different laws of phiysics.

The possibility of a big crush is quite low as there needs to be enough matter in the universe in order to make it a closed univese of a spherical shape, an unclosed universe has no sides or edges yet it is growing in size every second, growing to where?

Anyway if the universe is a closed universe it then must have enough matter to make it colapse into itself, if you would like more information, try searching on google or pm me! :D

[stewey]

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/2004/19/faq/

information on supermassive black holes


>> Questions & Answers — Understanding the discovery

How is a supermassive black hole different from normal black holes?
Supermassive black holes formed early in the universe and accompanied galaxy formation. Hubble research finds that they are common among galaxies. They are millions or billions of times more massive than black holes that are left behind after a star explodes.

Why are the AGNs so far away?
Black holes were well-fed in the early universe. There was a lot of gas from them to accrete from galaxy collisions, which were more frequent when the expanding universe was smaller, so very distant galaxies are more likely to have AGNs.

<<

[dutchie]

One of the theorys for the end of the universe is that all matter will be sucked into a huge black hole, a way of the big crush.

But get this, some scientists think if there ever is a big crush there may be a following big bang creating a universe completely different to ours with possibly different laws of phiysics.

The possibility of a big crush is quite low as there needs to be enough matter in the universe in order to make it a closed univese of a spherical shape, an unclosed universe has no sides or edges yet it is growing in size every second, growing to where?

Anyway if the universe is a closed universe it then must have enough matter to make it colapse into itself, if you would like more information, try searching on google or pm me! :D
Just to be nagging: the collapse of the total universe under its own gravity is referred to as the "Big Crunch".
There is NO black hole involved in this process. Just think of the Big Crunch as the expansion of the universe coming to a halt and slowly reverting its direction into compression. This compression would go on and on and would finally result in all matter collapsing into one singularity in which all existing matter would come together into a point of infinite density. This singularity might then become unstable and fall apart into a new Big Bang, thus starting the process of an expanding universe all over again.

Most scientist are now convinced the universe shows no sign of "braking" at all: chances of the Big Crunch ocurring are very slim.

Of course this is all theory.

[stewey]

Big Expansion (everything gets super duper far apart) is supposedly more likely.

[lotrfan55345]

I just saw a program on the National Geographic about "dark matter" and how even with it, there is not enough matter* to hold the universe in a "soccer ball" shape or keep it the way it is an infinite period of time.

* or something


I'll try to search for it.


But here is more info on the cyclic model of the universe: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/04/0425_020425_universe.html

[dutchie]

Most scientists dismiss that one as highly improbable. "Materialisation"?? :grin

[stewey]

Yea I was under the impression that the universe being cyclic is pretty improbable. Then again no one knows for sure and we won't for a few trillion years.

[dutchie]

Well, in that case, please keep me posted!!

[Energy]

And who says black holes don't exist?They are real,not some science-fiction.

[lazserus]

And who says black holes don't exist?They are real,not some science-fiction.
Wasn't mentioned in this thread. No one has dismissed it.

So how often are black holes of this size encountered, is this one of the first?
This would be the first of its size discovered. A vast majority of supermassive black holes reside within the centers of galaxies. The biggest ones we've ever "discovered" are at the centers of quasars. One of this particular size baffles me because I can't rationally think of where it could be. The oldest quasar detected contains one several million times less than the mass of this one. The strange thing is that this particular black hole sits in the middle of a galaxy and not a quasar, even though quasars house the largest black holes.

Do they know how supermassive black holes form?
A stellar black hole is formed from a massive star collapsing. They're normally just a few to a few hundred times the mass of the sun. A supermassive black hole forms from on a much larger scale, through galaxy collisions or large quantities of gas and matter collapsing. Most supermassive black holes are the age old remnants of the period just after the universe expanded and cooled. During that time there were a lot of very dense patches of plasma that coagulated to form dense objects.

Most scientist are now convinced the universe shows no sign of "braking" at all: chances of the Big Crunch ocurring are very slim.
To add to what dutchie has already mentioned, there is a big problem with a universal retraction. Just after the big bang there was an inflation period where the universe expanded at a rate that makes the speed of light look like a snail. It soon slowed and that's when it cooled. Basically, if we include dark matter (which is over 90% of the universe's mass) there wasn't enough to result in a retraction. Then in 1997 we discovered the universe's expansion is accelerating. The chances of a retraction are slim to none. The fate of the universe points to a cold dark universe where the accelerated expansion will increase beyond the speed of light.

[dutchie]

Thanks, Laz. You're a merry sould aren't ya?!? (just kiddin) :rolling:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Holy cow! The man who damn near invented black holes (if natural science wouldnt have beat him to it) finally answers a problem that has perplexed him for 30 years.......

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/science/AP-Ireland-Black-Holes.html?8bl

[dutchie]

Don't get too excited.. Hawking has backed away from previous theories before...

[prezhorusin04]

I trust Hawkings new insights on the Black Hole enigma..It is a nice message that allows for SOME information to escape the clutches of its all consuming grasp.

Perhaps Hawkings new beliefs in the workings of the Black Hole has something to do with his own near death experiences, (In which his wife is accused off beating & choking him?!?!)

Some people believe that ALL space is in fact a black hole that all of reality and our galaxies rest upon.Perhaps this is in some ways true.

While the Black Hole requires much attention to properly try and explain or express in any detail, i have a couple theories of my own that i'm seeking to open up regarding the issue. i am very interested in the potential of the BH, and have looked into them for atleast a decade, but am a novice at the scientific practice.

1) One potential is that there are millions, if not billions of black holes in the TOTAL cosmos (This is assuming that space is a closed system all connecting to ONE POINT in the distant past of estimated 15 billion years.) Since it takes a Star of hundreds of times the mass of the sun to even stand a chance at being a hole in it's death, we could conclude that there would be atleast hundreds of millions of holes in the cosmos since the sun is a small, or average star in it's size, in comparison to other solar systems.

Since these black holes are in actuality MORE POWERFUL in it's presence then entire Solar Systems, light, or even Suns, one can theorize that they obtain as large a prominence in the making of "Heavenly" movements and creations as do the movements of Massive Stars and galaxies. Black Holes play their part in the creative nature of the universe, and in fact, without them, there would be far more perceived "chaos" and disorder in the galaxy.

Science, at the moment, has concluded that in time, perhaps tens or hundreds of billions of years, the Universe will cool, and begin to retract "big crunch" back in on itself..Loosing energy as suns cool and die, and black h o l e s are born.
It seems possible that this "crunch" is in fact caused by the workings of hundreds of millions of massive black holes that are sucking in matter at an ever increasing rate.-Hundreds of millions of BH working as ONE force to draw back in the energies of the material universe..And then, after billions and billions of more years, when the mass majority of matter has been consumed and extinguished, the black holes will slowly begin devouring themselves..Time/Space will become more and more compressed as all the holes begin to meld and bleed into each other pulling at the very fabric of all reality..And after 500 billion or so years (IF the "Bang" was 15 billion years ago) the holes will all pull into one singularity, and the "Big Bang" will occure again.

The Holes can almost be seen as weeds in the garden of the stars and planets..They seek to overcome the garden, but only out of the natural progression of helping to fertilize, and create the backbone for a multitude of cross fertilizations and pollinization of future species.

2)i see this finite/infinite singularity point "bang" as a sort of pendulum mechanism..It condenses in on ALL sides of the reality spectrum, and then comes out the other side..ALL the energies of ALL reality and dimension are compressed into one singularity at one eternal moment, and then re dispersed out into the "void/vaccume" to BEGIN AGAIN and start a new cross pollination of time/space/reality/dimension in a newly experienced order.

This "pendulum force" comes in and out, back and forth, Bang and Crunch for perhaps billions of "cosmic lifetimes" and cycles, and it too, slowly begins to come into one frequency and vibration..All becomes a static stillness at a focus point and COMPLETE REALIZATION is attained of ALL that has ever been or could be..

And this realization is that THIS AWARENESS has been the entire time throughout ALL life cycles.

AND ALL OF THIS TIME, BIRTH, DEATH, AWAKE, ASLEEP, HERE, NOw, THEN, THERE, is all ONE beautiful moment and realization.-The Bang and Crunch are polar opposites of the same force.

And upon the "final crunch" a new cycle is born, of a new "karmic" balance and perfected evolutionary order.

Of course, thinking such as this only raises more questions then answers perhaps, but I CAN SEE IT though i realize there is much more thought and explanation to be devoted to the issue..


Hopefully it raises some thought atleast...To alternative theories.

http://www.nwowatcher.com/attachments/abovethecitym.jpg
ABOVE THE CITY

[prezhorusin04]

Black Hole White Dragon
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/logo_rotating_100.gif
http://www.nwowatcher.com/attachments/abovethecitym.jpg
Above the City

[dutchie]

Fantastic theory, Prez. Bit far fetched, tho. As I understood most scientists now agree the chances on a Big Crunch are very slim. You took the starmass needed to actually create a black hole rather large. Supermassive black holes won't suck in all matter around them either. In fact, it is becoming more and more clear that a supermassive black hole is at the heart of our own Milky Way galaxy too. We're still here... Interesting read though. :thumbs:

[prezhorusin04]

Thanks Dutch-Man. :D .I tried to represent a little about what i feel towards the anomaly..

I think there is a high probablility that the Milky Way rests on a Black hole, but it too would only be one out of atleast MILLIONS of them..

i theorize a potential scenerio reailty out of infinite scenerios..

But, that's all theory really is in most accounts suppose..Even if backed by mathematical calculations and equations, even things like black holes and Big bang are only theories, that many people still do not believe...Or understand


What i think is important is for alternative theories to present themselves..Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions, not just NASA scientist and PHD holders..

Only when we reach the depths of mankinds imagination and thought, can we begin to uncover the more complete truth of our existence..Even so called "Insanity" is really the meeting point of perfect logic and understanding..

All points come into one, and are reborn

Maybe we should break free of religious doctrines to gain a better understanding of the nature of black holes-I do believe that there is a wealth of informattion to be discovered from the influence and manifestation of the BH's, whatever their ultimate truth might be..

:chopper:

[stewey]

That is quite an interesting theory. However, supposedly, the universe is expanding and going further and further apart. And the event horizons for black holes is quite small, so there would have to be a lot of black holes. Although I could be just misinterpreting what you mean..

[prezhorusin04]

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/pix/pic8039.jpg
Colours of the rainbow turn to white
Michelle Pountney
21jul04
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10200032%255E24331,00.html
IT'S not so much a rainbow as a drizzle-bow. A rare clear white rainbow formed over Melbourne's west yesterday.
People looking toward the sky caught a once-in-a-lifetime glimpse of the clear version of the rainbow's colourless cousin.
Weather bureau senior forecaster Dean Stewart said a clear or white rainbow occurred when rain droplets were too small to refract light into the spectrum of the rainbow.
"Because the drops are so small they don't refract the light as much as normal larger raindrops so you are not getting the same breakdown of the light spectrum," he said.
"They are quite rare."
None of the weather-watching staff at the bureau could remember seeing one before and hit the books for the cause of the rare phenomenon.
Mr Stewart said yesterday's clear rainbow did not appear to go all the way to the ground -- but formed in tiny raindrops drizzling out from the base of the cloud that evaporated before hitting the ground.
Photographer John Hart took this picture of the rare rainbow during 10th birthday celebrations for the Melbourne Observation Deck at Rialto Towers.
Since opening in July 1994, the observation deck has welcomed more than five million visitors.

[dutchie]

Explain the relevance of this post in this topic, please Prez... I would be forced to delete it otherwise.

[prezhorusin04]

i didn't think it warranted opening a whole new thread for..

And i kinda thought the contrast of the topics went together in a way.. :chopper:

[prezhorusin04]

Stewey.
In response to your reply..For this scenerio to work, there would have to be many, many millions of black holes in the whole of space..AND space would have to be a somewhat closed system, otherwise, expansion of space would have to truly be infinite, in which case black holes would only serve a smaller role in the cosmic order of things...

IE: there would have to be atleast 25% as many balck holes in the galaxy as stars/suns..Or even only 15% could do the job, since in many ways BH's are more powerful then stars and galaxies..

And then, 100 billion years from now, when the universe grows cold, the BH's will begin increasing in their ration of consumption., and start to pull in on each other at an excellerated rate until they become one whole of energy..And perhaps a WHITE hole is formed as a new BIG BANG emerges from the remains of the old..

[prezhorusin04]

Dutchie, Mods/Admins..Please don't erase, as this DOES relate to the thread..

http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenix.gif

BENBEN STONE
The BenBen stone and altar was the most sacred site of pre-pyramid age Egypt. The BenBen stone was placed on top of a sacred pillar at the Temple of the Phoenix. It represents the rock that rose from the primordial mound of creation, and perhaps also as the petrified semen of the sun god, when he self-copulated and brought things into being. The Stone was a complex achievement in world architecture, and, like the pyramids, there is no explicit inscription to describe why it was created or what the real motivation was behind its dramatic scale and shape. It is thought of as the purest geometric form attained until modern times. Obelisks such as these were so massive that they were called ‘sky-scrapers’, and they represented the male sexual energy being erected into the celestial womb.
The BenBen Altar is credited with cosmic origins and is associated with the Bennu bird/Phoenix of Osiris. The Phoenix represents rebirth, regeneration and the calendrical cycles.

The Cult of BenBen was the largest and most influential of its day as it was the cult of the Elites, who believed that the divine seed of prodigal cosmic Bennu bird was manifested in the BenBen stone. Ben meant the meaning for human sperm, human ejaculation and seeding the world. It was the center of the royal cult which built the pyramids. BenBen partially represented the seed of Osiris, and the regenerative mystical powers that created Horus from the womb of Isis.

Heliopolis was controlled by the Elite priesthood, and the pyramids were designed under their instruction. This supposed domain of the Bennu Bird formed a linking sanctuary between the Ra and Atum worship zones. A potent shrine stood with the benben stone as the top center piece in order to pinpoint the earthly worship of the solar creator. The stone served as the earliest prototype for the obelisk, and possibly even the pyramid. In recognition of these connections, the gilded cap-stone placed at the very top of each pyramid or obelisk was known as a benbenet. The original stone at Heliopolis was believed to have been the point at which the rays of the rising sun first fell, and its cult appears to be dated back to the First Dynasty or before.

--------------------------------------
http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenix.html
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/benu.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/2o5.htm
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1493.cfm
http://watch.pair.com/mason.html

[prezhorusin04]

http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenixsundisc.gif
http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenix.html

The Benu is another Egyptian sun bird resembling a heron. It is identified with Ra the sun god. Benu means Ascending One, Purple Heron and Palm Tree.

Like the phoenix, this bird was identified with the temple to the sun gods at Heliopolis. The Benu was also known to be a symbol of Osiris incarnate, renewing itself. It has a two long feathers on the crest of its head and was often crowned with the Atef crown of Osiris (the White Crown with two ostrich plumes on either side) or with the disk of the sun.

The Phoenix and the Benu - The same:

Each was a primordial god, which built its nest on the willow which is on the top of the primordial hill.

The deities Re (Ra) - and Atum were akin to the symbolic meaning of both.

Because of its birdlike nature, the phoenix was called "ba of Re" - the soul of Re. The Bennu was also associated with the sun and represented the 'ba' or soul of the sun god, Re.

The soul was believed to be a birdlike spiritual being.

As a deity of creation and life it was also associated with Osiris.

The phoenix was called "the famous ba, which came out of the heart of Osiris".

There was a connection to the deity Kepera (the scarab-god), the Lord of Life and Death.

The phoenix supposedly burns itself in his nest on the hill (sunset) and is being reborn the next morning. The hill is being located on the Flaming Isle of Re in the East, where the sun rises.

At Koptos in Egypt, the Bennu bird is depicted with two human arms stretched upwards and outwards toward the star Sothis - Sirius , which appears in the early sky before the sun rises.

The Phoenix/Bennu bird is said to arise 'at dawn from the waters of the Nile'. It is linked with summer.

The Bennu was the sacred bird of Heliopolis. Bennu probably derives from the word weben, meaning "rise" or "shine." In the Late Period, the hieroglyph of the bird was used to represent this deity directly. As a symbol of the rising and setting sun, the Bennu was also the lord of the royal jubilee.

The Bennu was also associated with the inundation of the Nile and of the creation. Standing alone on isolated rocks of islands of high ground during the floods the heron represented the first life to appear on the primeval mound which rose from the watery chaos at the first creation. This mound was called the ben-ben.

The Bennu was also considered a manifestation of the resurrected Osiris and the bird was often shown perched in his sacred willow tree.

http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenixc.gif

Resurrection; Christ consumed in the fires of Passion and rising again on the third day; triumph over death; faith; constancy; Christ's divine nature (as the Pelican was of his human nature).

In early Christian tradition the phoenix was adopted as being resurrection and immortality. Through Christian eyes, we are taught to believe in the resurrection, as Christ himself exhibited the character of the phoenix: "I have the power to lay down my life and to take it up again."

Using Christ's life as an example, one can live a similar learning life of rejuvenation.

The phoenix makes a coffin and fills it with fine smelling spices, then dies where the stink of corruption is (effaced) by (agreeable) smells.

Man may make a coffin of faith, faith being Christ, who sheathes and protects you in days of trouble. Your good spices are your virtues-chastity, compassion, and justice, being odors of noble deeds, sweet in life (as Christian doctrine dictates).

Depart from life with the clothing of this faith, and as St. Paul states, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith, the crown of justice is restored to me."

Thus, as with all other symbols, there is a cycle, a returning to something, as in many things of life. A symbol occurs because of its reflective association (the return) with the one viewing the symbol. It is lived through the interpretation of the viewer.

http://www.crystalinks.com/zwings.gif
http://www.crystalinks.com/isiswings.gif
http://www.crystalinks.com/phoenix.html

[Defiant Noquisi]

Don't get too excited.. Hawking has backed away from previous theories before... True, but it was exciting to read that he came up with a more plausible answer for a theory problem that had him buggered him for so long.