New relationship of 666

[ben91069]

I have long wondered what the so-called mark of the beast is and the mythical number 666 really means. In fact I believe I have spent my whole life wondering about these things.

Before the advent of the technology to mark people with microchips in an effort of identifying them and to also provide a conduit for monetary exchange, I believed that it may someday happen in this manner. The main drawback to this is that we currently have a mark of the beast system in place with the Social Security system in the US. We are not yet marked in the hand or the forehead, but we essentially have a mark that without it we could not easily have cash in hand and buy and sell. So what is the difference in God's eyes of having a microchip or a SS card?

Their are two references in the Bible I would like to bring up but I will not quote directly:

One - Jesus said, the flesh means nothing at all.
Two - All sins are forgiven except one - blaspheming the spirit.

These two statements do not contradict each other, in fact they say the same thing: The physical world is forgiveable in all cases.

This is exactly what Jesus said all throughout his ministry that all sins have, is, and will be forgiven.

So, we are left with this dirty deed of to take a mark or not. I have been led to believe that it makes no difference at all. What leads me to believe this is a revelation of sorts I had about 9 years ago and I will explain. To me it makes no difference whether you believe this theory or not, for it is my own opinion and I do not try to make believers out of anyone. This is just and idea that may or may not have meaning to you.

First of all, if we are to believe Jesus' saying that the flesh means nothing, then one could conclude that it is the spirit that matters and not our deeds. The flesh is another phrase meaning the physical. It can be stretched to include all that is physical. Our whole physical world in fact. I won't go that far, but I would state that by denying what Jesus' said about the flesh meaning nothing, we are really saying the flesh means something. This is saying that living flesh is something we worship - the physical.

Here is what I have concluded regarding living flesh and the mark of the beast:

All living things could be construed as equal to the word used as flesh (my opinion). Living things are made of the base element of Carbon. If one studies the periodic table of elements, on can find Carbon as the 6th element on the table. The number 6 is symbolically linked to as man's number or the number of man. The periodic table is also organized by an elements mass of man made numbers.

The peculiar thing about the 6th element are that all elements contain three components; protons, neutrons, and electrons. Carbon has 6 of each, making it comprised of 6,6,6. I think this is the key to the elusive number of man 666. It is merely the worship of the flesh or physical life.

Another note on carbon based life is that it requires the element oxygen for life to occur. Oxygen is the 7th element or symbolically the number of perfection or God. Also, Carbon shows the duality of good and evil in man in that it similarly can take on two opposite forms. Carbon can be black, dirty and valueless in the form of graphite or it can show light, brilliance, and invaluable in the form of a diamond.

I hope you found this evaluation interesting.

Mr. Ben

[Doomer]

Very interesting Mr. Ben.

It's difficult for me to believe that the flesh means nothing at all every time I see a hottie. I'll admit I'm weak. After all, there is Sarah Michelle Gellar. Is she meaningless flesh ? Not to me, sorry. :grin

[autryn2]

The key to recognizing the mark of the beast is the fact that 1) it is world wide and 2) you can't buy or sell without it.

My belief is that it will be born in or through the internet because thats the ONLY worldwide mechanism going right now. The other key is hand held money.... when hand held money is totally replaced, look for the mark to replace it.

Obviously, your SSN# is not the mark, or your credit card. You can buy food without either right now.

The mark will also count (or number) the people of the world, and this is against God's law (as rooted in the story of king david in the old testament).

The mark will be presented as a good thing to those who don't know any better. It will be said that the mark will eliminate stealing, drug sales, prostitution, and the like, but this mark is an abomination to God.

Also, sorry to all the pre-tribulation rapturists out there, but we will ALL still be here. Denying the mark will will confirm the faith of the fence-sitters (Christian wanna-be's). Imagine the amount of faith it will take to reject the mark, and in turn be rejected by society! Christ was also rejected by the people of His day.

Don't worry... the mark is not going to be some hidden thing thats going to jump up and swallow you without your knowledge.... EVERYONE will know what they're doing... each will make his (her) own choice. To either deny yourself (your physical self... financial ruin, conflict in your family, hunger, etc...) or accept the mark with full knowledge of your actions (we all know when we sin), take the easier road in the SHORT RUN, and burn in hell forever.

[LC Jeffries]

Heres and interesting Concept. Computers are the Anti Christ. Most machine and digital calculations ends in 6's.

Also if you spell COMPUTER and assign a number for each letter.

C O M P U T E R
3 15 13 16 21 20 5 18 = 111

Then mutiply 111x6= 666

This works with decerning who or what just may be anti-christ.

Just something Fun.

[stewey]

Paranoid has 3 different vowels.

3 x 222 = 666! omg!

sorry couldn't resist!

[DarkAce]

I believe I've said this before in the other 666/mark of the beast threads, but why is the mark so bad again?


The mark will be presented as a good thing to those who don't know any better. It will be said that the mark will eliminate stealing, drug sales, prostitution, and the like, but this mark is an abomination to God.

God forbid man should take matters into it's own hands and eliminate all those bad things. No, we should wait until Jesus comes back so he can drop kick all those who reject him to hell and make the world right again. FFS...

I don't even think I have to explain any other flawed points. Logic would be lost on you.

[prezhorusin04]

If you take every letter in the alphabet and add 6, thus A=6, B=12, C=18, D=24, ect..And then ADD the numbers to the lettters in computer, you will get 666.

[LC Jeffries]

I never thought of that way. But it still get's the same number one way or another.

Brilliant. :D

:D :bubble:

[jjserio]

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[stewey]

I wouldn't worry about Mayan calendar. They couldn't predict or stop their own demise, I really doubt they can predict ours. Anything taken from the bible can be taken many, many ways. Revelations was written in pseudo-code to give hope to persecuted Christians.

>>I assume that theres a microbotic chip made up of organic cosmic plasma that will be networked & have infinite capabilities. It's a super intelligent programmed entitiy that will be self powered by property & will capsule in a host via our bodies. This system & its devices will have mastered the 3rd dimension just as it see's it end. <<

As a computer scientist, I am happy to say that this is impossible. Artificial Intelligence is impossible theoretically -- programs just do what theyre programmed to do. Also, how do you get 666 = cashless society?

I believe in God; I do not feel the bible can be taken very seriously, however. It's morals and ethics yes, but its "predictions" and stories, no.

[jjserio]

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[jjserio]

gjkdsfghshfjhgkjjktyuththyjghkjhkffgdfhbfjhytdy

[jjserio]

gjkdsfghshfjhgkjjktyuththyjghkjhkffgdfhbfjhytdy

[jjserio]

gjkdsfghshfjhgkjjktyuththyjghkjhkffgdfhbfjhytdy

[LC Jeffries]

Wow, this is excellent. If this does not convince someone that I don't know what will.

We've just recently received as a gift a Yorkshire Terror. He has a chip in the back of his neck. He came with one because he has a pedigree and really is not a cheap dog. I like the idea a little bit when it comes to pets.

I hope we never have to use it. But when you force people to take a chip just to keep track of them, that is very anti-christ.

[DarkAce]

First off, did Jesus mention anything about the mark or the anti-christ, etc? Nope.

Religion has copied itself over so much throughout the millenias that much of the symbolism and philosophical aspects of the myths have been loss due to people twisting them around and incorporating their own agendas and beliefs into it.

These essay type responses would garner that you're capable of reasoning, so wouldn't you give thought that a lot of what's said is used as fear tactics to make sure people follow christianity and only christianity. This goes beyond just the mark of the beast but with the rest of revelations as well. Jesus is bringing down his wrath and all those who don't accept him shall perish, etc.


God would not mete out such stiff punishment for simply accepting an identification and credit mark that allows you to consume commercial products.


Ever actually read the bible? Especially the Old Testament? If you have then you would know God has punished/killed/smited people for much less and sometimes for no apparent reason.


If you see a government arise and its leader demands your allegiance, your loyalty, and even your worship, don’t fall for it. Regardless of the economic "incentives" offered or the retribution that threatens those who refuse his mark and number, give your love and worship to the true God, your Creator, who loves and cares for you, and will see you through the days ahead if you put your trust in Him.


See the part I have in bold, governments and countries have been doing this throughout the ages. Was the mark of the beast there and then? Thanks also for determining for everyone that there is a God (only one) and he loves us and will protect us in the future if we believe in him. Right how about the now? How about all the suffering, poverty and hatge in the world now? How about all the problems in the world now and of past that were a result of religion and God's love? Where was he then and now?
You claim to not be a part of religion my ass, you seem like a fundamentalist in denial.


You can see why it was not to be changed & why our ancients held it so sacred.


Ancients held many things sacred. Until other cultures came and destroyed what they held sacred and made them convert to their ideologies. The Jews would of probably been wiped out completly also if there culture wasn't such an integral part of Christianity when it began it's dominion.


The Mayan calendar is blank for a 12 year period (2000-2012) upon entering the godly 4th dimension which is the time of great change in form, free of evilness. The blank period may be a time of uncertainty.

Perhaps it's when masses of people begin to see what a crock of shit most religions are and the deceit and lies told by them. When we are able to think with open, rational and logical minds and not be clouded by biases. It's not called the new golden age of conscience(or whatever) for nothing.

Lets look at the pros and cons and see if you can figure out which is better.

Pros: Taken straight from one of your articles:
It will be a New World Order, under which national boundaries dissolve, and ethnic groups, ideologies, religions, and economics from around the world, orchestrate a single and dominant sovereignty. The system will supposedly be free of religious and political extremes, and membership will tolerate the philosophical and cultural differences of its constituents. Except for minor nonconformities, war, terrorism, and hunger will be a thing of the past.

Cons: Alleged eternal damnation in the afterlife(only by the christian faith).
Which wouldn't matter even if you don't accept the supposed mark because if you're not christian Jesus is coming to kick your ass along with the plagues.

Possible paranoia scenarios where you will be a mindless drone or controlled. (Hmm how many paranoia scenarios have I heard that attributed to before...government sponsered vaccinations anyone?)

Hmmm which sounds better, logically and is more plausible? Right.
You do realize many of the other faiths, even the ancient ones have speaked that this age is for the better of humanity.
Only the guilt provoking, don't ask questions, faith of Christianity is trying to reprise it and keep things the way they are.
Which includes, poverty, starvation, terrorism, war, etc.

[VegasRonin]

Well, I'm not christian but I definitely won't accept any type of microchip implant. If I see it becoming mandatory then I'd probably become a christian. :angel: I might accept cybernetic augmentation though. :devsmoke:

[Doomer]

I imagine these microchips would be easy to kill. One of those high voltage phasers would probably fry it and give you a temporary thrill at the same time.

[jjserio]

gjkdsfghshfjhgkjjktyuththyjghkjhkffgdfhbfjhytdy

[terminatordrei]

I think Revelation was a coded book written for early christians because they were persecuted by the Romans. The author was maybe trying to expand the message of the gospels by using metaphores. That is why I think it is difficult to say when the author was "prophesing" or simply telling christians more on their faith.

I'll quote the Catholic Encyclopedia. The complete article is found at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

"PURPOSE OF THE BOOK

From this cursory perusal of the book, it is evident that the Seer was influenced by the prophecies of Daniel more than by any other book. Daniel was written with the object of comforting the Jews under the cruel persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes. The Seer in the Apocalypse had a similar purpose. The Christians were fiercely persecuted in the reign of Domitian. The danger of apostasy was great. False prophets went about, trying to seduce the people to conform to the heathen practices and to take part in the Caesar-worship. The Seer urges his Christians to remain true to their faith and to bear their troubles with fortitude. He encourages them with the promise of an ample and speedy reward. He assures them that Christ s triumphant coming is at hand. Both in the beginning and at the end of his book the Seer is most emphatic in telling his people that the hour of victory is nigh. He begins, saying: "Blessed is he that . . . keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand" (i. 3). He closes his visions with the pathetic words: "He that giveth testimony of these things saith, Surely I come quickly: Amen. Come, Lord Jesus". With the coming of Christ the woes of the Christians will be avenged. Their oppressors will be given up to the judgment and the everlasting torments. The martyrs that have fallen will be raised to life, that they may share the pleasures of Christ's kingdom, the millennium. Yet this is but a prelude to the everlasting beatitude which follows after the general resurrection. It is an article of faith that Christ will return at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. But the time of His second advent is unknown. "But of that day and hour no one knoweth, no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone" (Matt., xxiv, 36). It would appear, and is so held by many that the Christians of the Apostolic age expected that Christ would return during their own lifetime or generation. This seems to be the more obvious meaning of several passages both in the Epistles and Gospels (cf. John, xxi 21-23, Thess., iv, 13-18). The Christians of Asia Minor and the Seer with them, appear to have shared this fallacious expectation. Their mistaken hope, however, did not affect the soundness of their belief in the essential part of the dogma. Their views of a millennial period of corporal happiness were equally erroneous. The Church has wholly cast aside the doctrine of a millennium previous to the resurrection. St. Augustine has perhaps more than any one else helped to free the Church from all crude fancies as regards its pleasures. He explained the millennium allegorically and applied it to the Church of Christ on earth. With the foundation of the Church the millennium began. The first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of the soul from sin (De Civ. Dei Lib. XX). Thus the number 1,000 is to be taken indefinitely. "

The beast from the sea that had received plenitude of power from the dragon, or Satan, is the Roman Empire, or rather, Caesar, its supreme representative. The token of the beast with which its servants are marked is the image of the emperor on the coins of the realm. This seems to be the obvious meaning of the passage, that all business transactions, all buying and selling were impossible to them that had not the mark of the beast (Ap., xiii. 17). Against this interpretation it is objected that the Jews at the time of Christ had no scruple in handling money on which the image of Caesar was stamped (Matt., xxii 15-22). But it should be borne in mind that the horror of the Jews for the imperial images was principally due to the policy of Caligula. He confiscated several of their synagogues, changing them into heathen temples by placing his statue in them. He even sought to erect an image of himself in the Temple of Jerusalem (Jos., Ant., XVIII, viii, 2).

..."The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They are Augustus Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96). Of him the Seer has something very peculiar to say. He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (xvii, 8). In verse 11 it is added: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction". All this sounds like oracular language. But the clue to its solution is furnished by a popular belief largely spread at the time. The death of Nero had been witnessed by few. Chiefly in the East a notion had taken hold of the mind of the people that Nero was still alive. Gentiles, Jews, and Christians were under the illusion that he was hiding himself, and as was commonly thought, he had gone over to the Parthians, the most troublesome foes of the empire. From there they expected him to return at the head of a mighty army to avenge himself on his enemies. The existence of this fanciful belief is a well-attested historic fact. Tacitus speaks of it: "Achaia atque Asia falso exterrit velut Nero adventaret, vario super ejus exitu rumore eoque pluribus vivere eum fingentibus credentibusque" (Hist., II, 8). So also Dio Chrysostomus: kai nyn (about A.D. 100) eti pantes epithymousi zen oi de pleistoi kai oiontai (Orat., 21, 10; cf. Suet., "Vit. Caes." s.v. Nero, 57, and the Sibyliine Oracles, V, 28-33). Thus the contemporaries of the Seer believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The Seer either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose. Nero had made a name for himself by his cruelty and licentiousness. The Christians in particular had reason to dread him. Under him the first persecution took place. The second occurred under Domitian. But unlike the previous one, it was not confined to Italy, but spread throughout the provinces. Many Christians were put to death, many were banished (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., III, 17-19). In this way the Seer was led to regard Domitian as a second Nero, "Nero redivivus". Hence he described him as "the one that was, that is not, and that is to return". Hence also he counts him as the eighth and at the same time makes him one of the preceding seven, viz. the fifth, Nero. The identification of the two emperors suggested itself all the more readily since even pagan authors called Domitian a second Nero (calvus Nero, Juvenal. IV, 38). The popular belief concerning Nero's death and return seems to be referred to also in the passage (xiii, 3): "And I saw one of its heads as it were slain to death: and its death's wound was healed".

"The ten horns are commonly explained as the vassal rulers under the supremacy of Rome. They are described as kings (basileis), here to be taken in a wider sense, that they are not real kings, but received power to rule with the beast. Their power, moreover, is but for one hour, signifying its short duration and instability (xvii, 17). The Seer has marked the beast with the number 666. His purpose was that by this number people may know it. He that has understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. A human number, i.e. intelligible by the common rules of investigation. We have here an instance of Jewish gematria. Its object is to conceal a name by substituting for it a cipher of equal numerical value to the letters composing it. For a long time interpreters tried to decipher the number 666 by means of the Greek alphabet, e.g. Irenæus, "Adv. Haer.", V, 33. Their efforts have yielded no satisfactory result. Better success has been obtained by using the Hebrew alphabet. Many scholars have come to the conclusion that Nero is meant. For when the name "Nero Caesar" is spelled with Hebrew letters, it yields the cipher 666. "

*So, 666 could be Nero and the mark may have referred to apostasy and loyalty to the empire. I think it makes sense with the mark needed for buying and selling.

"The second beast, that from the land, the pseudoprophet whose office was to assist the beast from the sea, probably signifies the work of seduction carried on by apostate Christians. They endeavoured to make their fellow Christians adopt the heathen practices and submit themselves to the cultus of the Caesar. They are not unlikely the Nicolaitans of the seven Epistles. For they are there compared to Balaam and Jezabel seducing the Israelites to idolatry and fornication. The woman in travail is a personification of the synagogue or the church. Her first-born is Christ, her other seed is the community of the faithful. "

[Defiant Noquisi]

We've just recently received as a gift a Yorkshire Terror. He has a chip in the back of his neck. He came with one because he has a pedigree and really is not a cheap dog. I like the idea a little bit when it comes to pets. Think about it, now your actions can be tracked via the dog. :mad:

[VegasRonin]

Think about it, now your actions can be tracked via the dog. Never thought of that, and I'm suppose to think of things like that. Its my job. Oh well, a little wiser today, and its a good thing.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Well, I'm not christian but I definitely won't accept any type of microchip implant. If I see it becoming mandatory then I'd probably become a christian. :angel: I might accept cybernetic augmentation though. :devsmoke: No way am I going to accept being "tagged" or becoming christian. Nope, nope, nope, no way, no how. Ill go back to the days of bartering and living off the land. Id even live in a cave before I caved into having something that could record my every move. :mad:

[mysticalzoe]

does anyone have the date when the family in Florida got branded? On the today show? It's too scary to think about, it's actually going to happen!

[LC Jeffries]

Think about it, now your actions can be tracked via the dog. :mad:


The vet told me that the only way they can use it is if he got lost. Sattlelites can't realy find where he is. At least thats what their telling me. It maybe otherwise.

[DarkAce]

Good find terminatordrei.

Perhaps I have jjserio, and I apologize that I overlooked that you were quoting whenever you mentioned God. However what I said needed to be said. Not everyone understands the myth and it needs to be told, repetively. Because every now and then there will be people that sprout up all fearing and believing in this crap as the ultimate truth. There's evidence of that right in this thread. So let it be told over and over again, until people get it through their heads about religion or the rapture actually happens.

[VegasRonin]

No way am I going to accept being "tagged" or becoming christian. I would DN. In my eyes, events would be too close Revelations to ignore. Plus, it would be easier for me since I started out in that belief system. The majority of my morals originate in that background also.

[DarkAce]

Like the article terminatordrei posted , there seems to be a sound theory that revelations was actually a jewish tale meant for the jews, then it was reworked/altered and used for christians.

So what happens if you were actually meant to convert to judaism and not christianity? You end up burning in hell with da rest of us bud :toast:

[VegasRonin]

If there truly is a Hell, then I'm sure my torture chamber is already reserved. :devsmoke:

[DarkAce]

Well then lets hope we go out with a bang, heh.:blazing:

[Defiant Noquisi]

I would DN. In my eyes, events would be too close Revelations to ignore. Plus, it would be easier for me since I started out in that belief system. The majority of my morals originate in that background also. Most all if not every Indian Nation has their own "revelations" type of thing, Cherokee are no different. Ill stick with what I feel safe with. I grew up in christian households, I learned. Its interesting that the bible says to leave us alone, we dont need it. :D

[dutchie]

heh, revelations.... We are working so hard on our doom, whatever would we need revelations for?!? If there are really ever any horsemen coming, the only thing they'll find is a world suffocated under a hot blanket of carbondioxide... :toast: Hell is right here!

[LC Jeffries]

heh, revelations.... We are working so hard on our doom, whatever would we need revelations for?!? If there are really ever any horsemen coming, the only thing they'll find is a world suffocated under a hot blanket of carbondioxide... :toast: Hell is right here!


I have to agree with you somewhat on that Dutchie. There are some places that are Hell on Earth, but others that are Paradise Incarnate. Parts of New Mexico and Colorodo are a few. As are The Bahamas, Hawaii, Not the usual tourist spots but the areas where very few travel in each state. Northern Hawaii is gorgeous. I've seen some really nice pictures, I would like to go some day.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Hehehe, dont forget the carbon monoxide and the cfc's still lingering about. I hope those horsemen are riding my beloved Friesians!

[dutchie]

I have toagree with you somewhat on that Dutchie. There are some places that are Hell on Earth, but others that are Paradise Incarnate. Parts of New Mexico and Colorodo are a few. As are The Bahamas, Hawaii, Not the usual tourist spots but the areas where very few travel in each state. Northern Hawaii is gorgeous. I've seen some really nice pictures, I would like to go some day.
Yes, of course there are some nice, seemingly unspoiled areas to be found... But my comment was meant more on a global scale. If there is a God somewhere he's probably crying his eyes out over us, not from grief alone, but more from the dense clouds of poisoned smoke drifting up to him. We do not need a final judgment day, the sun is already setting on that...

[LC Jeffries]

Again I have to agree with you somewhat. But it is better then it used to be. I remember growing up in Baltimore, the Inner Harbor area, was a waste land. It was sludge central. It was as bad as it can be. But here it is some 30 years later, and it's a clean and beautiful and I love all that it's become. Chattanooga Tennesee was the same way. The city was also a sludge central, but they've cleaned it up and it's quite beautiful as well. SO people are trying to clean up God's Creation, we where ordained to take care of the earth. And I see it happening slowly but surely.

:toast:

Hope you had a nice weekend. Where going to a minor league ball game tonight. (All Ten of of US) It's more fun then the majors. And they are having fireworks.

Ahh a night of Hot Dogs, baseball and Fireworks. That is Paradise.

:D :grin

[terminatordrei]

Thank you, DarkAce.

I believe that hypothesis makes much more sense than those of many modern churches out there. Sinething I forgot to mention:

In the first century BC Christians were considered just one more Jewish group. This can be seen in Paul's writings. This idea phased out when the Council of Jerusalem clarified gentiles who converted to Christianity did not have to follow Jewish rites. So christians found their identity re-affirmed and the conception that Christianity was in fact another religion (or the complete religion because they saw it as the whole Bible message), the Early Church, which later came to be known as the CC.

So, I agree with you. The book could have been written for some Jews to pass further the message to pagans, not to all Christians.

[VegasRonin]

Northern Hawaii is gorgeous. LOL Lori! You make it sound like Hawaii is just one island mass with a North, East, West, and South. What's Northern Hawaii, when you have 8 dominant islands, and over 20 sub islands?

[dutchie]

...drifting OT... :vbroll:

[autryn2]

Defiant Noquisi wrote:

"Its interesting that the bible says to leave us alone, we dont need it"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Where in the Bible did you read that????
Chapter and verse please.....

My Bible sez this:

From Metthew 28th Chapter:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[dcookcan]

Autryn wrote:

"My Bible sez this:

From Metthew 28th Chapter:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Just exactly what was it that Jesus commanded to obey?

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:

"Just exactly what was it that Jesus commanded to obey?"
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Well.... I think thats a pretty involved answer... You would have to read the entire book of Matthew.... but for an uneducated GUESS, I'd start with the greatest commendment... Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy strength and all thy mind - and love thy nieghbor as thyself. That would be a good start... then there's purity of self.... and trying to help out others who need help... both physically and spiritually.... then there's witnessing to others... spreading the Gospel.... trying not be a stumbling block (spiritually) to others. Basically, trying to be like Christ.

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BTW, where's Saskatoon???? ... and what the weather like there right now????

[dutchie]

If you want to advert your beliefs, create another thread please. Please let's stay on topic.

If you want you can convert any name to 666, that is not a problem. Speculations have been around for ages. My own (deeply religious) father once said that the "ban-the-bomb" sign from the seventies was in fact a depiction of Jesus' cross upside down, thus representing the "devils cross"..

http://www.vredesmuseum.nl/t_vision/kdemo11.jpg

If you want to, you can make something out of anything.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Defiant Noquisi wrote:

"Its interesting that the bible says to leave us alone, we dont need it"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Where in the Bible did you read that????
Chapter and verse please..... Sorry! I didnt realized I left you hanging like that! My bad. Here ya go.....

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually disconcerned.

Mathew 10:14 and whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

[autryn2]

Defiant Noquisi:

My Bible (NIV) reads:

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Defiant Noquisi wrote:

"Its interesting that the bible says to leave us alone, we dont need it"

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I'm no expert, but I think the author is trying to say that people who haven't accepted the Holy Spirit (eg, not saved) cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit of God. I DON'T think the author is trying to say certain people don't need to know Christ. :~)

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I've read your other posts where so-called Christians have done terrible things to you and those close to you ..... and I'm sorry. You can bet people who try to use Christ and His mission for their own evil purposes have a special place in Hell reserved for them. My apology can't erase the terrible memories in your head but please belive me when I say that those people are NOT representatives of Christ or represent His hopes for you in this world. We live in an evil time... there are bad people everywhere... and I'm sorry you've met your share that SAID they were Christian when their actions say otherwise.

You sound like you've studied the Bible.... surely you've read the part where Jesus says "You can tell a tree by its fruit". He meant that you can tell what kind of person a person is by what they do (and don't do). OBVIOUSLY. the people you described in your other posts were NOT Christians based on their actions. Rather, they were "wolves in sheep's clothing". Jesus tells us to beware and avoid these people.

Yes, those that abused you and your friends have a reward waiting for them. Read what Jesus said about them: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. "

[dcookcan]

autryn2 wrote:
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Well.... I think thats a pretty involved answer... You would have to read the entire book of Matthew.... but for an uneducated GUESS, I'd start with the greatest commendment... Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy strength and all thy mind - and love thy nieghbor as thyself. That would be a good start... then there's purity of self.... and trying to help out others who need help... both physically and spiritually.... then there's witnessing to others... spreading the Gospel.... trying not be a stumbling block (spiritually) to others. Basically, trying to be like Christ.
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You're close. The greatest commandment is quoted from Deuteronomy.

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BTW, where's Saskatoon???? ... and what the weather like there right now????
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Saskatoon is 300 miles NW of the intersection between the Canada, North Dakota and Montana borders. It has been a cold spring and it is raining and cool (about 60 deg.F) today. Was the same yesterday and will be the same tommorrow. Maybe it will warm up on Saturday.

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:
"You're close. The greatest commandment is quoted from Deuteronomy."
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OK, so... quote it.... :~)
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dcookcan wrote:
"Saskatoon is 300 miles NW of the intersection between the Canada, North Dakota and Montana borders. It has been a cold spring and it is raining and cool (about 60 deg.F) today. Was the same yesterday and will be the same tommorrow. Maybe it will warm up on Saturday."
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Thats so cool!!!!!!!! I've been to Canada before..... Montreal (I know, far east of where you are). The english speaking Canadians were VERY friendly but the Frenchies pooh-pooh mericans like me (even though they use merican cars, food, music, and TV reruns dubbed in French... it was too cool to watch Gilligans Island in French). The countyside I saw was fantastic.... incredibly beautiful, and the fishing shows there made me sick.... with envy. An eskimo was catching Northern Pike or Muskies as long as your leg every cast!!!! I like it in Canada and even threatened to buy some waterfront property there because the fishing is SO good, the people are so friendly, and the property is reasonably priced. My family goes to the upper penninsula of Michigan every year in the summer (I hope its cool there in August this year).

Here in the deep south its 90 deg F. every day (not good)!!!!

BTW, what's the name of the place that serves the donughts and samwiches??? Is it Horten's... they have GREAT flavored coffee for a chain!!! I should have bought some of the coffee tins while I was there. Wish we had them down south.

[dcookcan]

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OK, so... quote it.... :~)
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What I meant to say was Jesus was simply quoting from Deuteronomy for the greatest commandment and Leviticus for the second.

“‘Teacher, what is the great commandment in the Law?’ And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”” (Mattityahu/Matthew 22:36-40).

“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, The Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates” (Devarim/Deuteronomy 6:4-9).

“You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.” (Vayikra/Leviticus 19:18).


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I've been to Canada before..... Montreal (I know, far east of where you are). The english speaking Canadians were VERY friendly but the Frenchies pooh-pooh mericans like me (even though they use merican cars, food, music, and TV reruns dubbed in French... it was too cool to watch Gilligans Island in French).
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The frenchies don't seem to like anyone english speaking.

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The countyside I saw was fantastic.... incredibly beautiful, and the fishing shows there made me sick.... with envy. An eskimo was catching Northern Pike or Muskies as long as your leg every cast!!!! I like it in Canada and even threatened to buy some waterfront property there because the fishing is SO good, the people are so friendly, and the property is reasonably priced. My family goes to the upper penninsula of Michigan every year in the summer (I hope its cool there in August this year).
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There are some goog fishing holes close by and some incredible fishing about 4 hours drive north - The Churchill river is my favorite (so far).

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Here in the deep south its 90 deg F. every day (not good)!!!!
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I've spent a few days in Kansas in the early summer - too hot. I even thought Phoenix was a little warm in March.

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BTW, what's the name of the place that serves the donughts and samwiches??? Is it Horten's... they have GREAT flavored coffee for a chain!!! I should have bought some of the coffee tins while I was there. Wish we had them down south.
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Tim Horton's

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:
"I've spent a few days in Kansas in the early summer - too hot. I even thought Phoenix was a little warm in March."
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You should be in Alabama or Mississippi in August.... whew!!!!!
90-100 deg F EVERY stinkin day! 80+ deg F at night! And whoever wrote "its not the heat but the humidity" was absolutely right.... go outside for 5 minutes and you're soaking wet. The air is so thick sometimes you can barely breathe.....
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"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates”
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Makes you go.... hmmmmmm

"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead." .... maybe the origin of the phylactory(sp??).... maybe the mark of "God" on the believers foreheads that saves them from God's wrath as told in Revelation???? (eg, loving God instead cursing Him for the Judgement).

"You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates”
(Love of God=Christ=Christ's blood=His sacrifice=Lamb of God=lambs blood=blood on the doorposts during the passover in Egypt=love God to avoid His wrath... again).

HMMMMM.......

[dcookcan]

autryn2 wrote:

You should be in Alabama or Mississippi in August.... whew!!!!!
90-100 deg F EVERY stinkin day! 80+ deg F at night! And whoever wrote "its not the heat but the humidity" was absolutely right.... go outside for 5 minutes and you're soaking wet. The air is so thick sometimes you can barely breathe.....

We get an occassional 100 degree day with high humidity, but it is rare. I like the spring, summer and fall weather here. Winter is a different story. We set a new record this past winter, -40's and with the windchill it was -60F - ouch.

autryn2 wrote:

"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead." .... maybe the origin of the phylactory(sp??).... maybe the mark of "God" on the believers foreheads that saves them from God's wrath as told in Revelation????

Yes, this is the origin of the phylactories (greek) or the tefillin (hebrew). Some believe that this represents what you do with your hand (i.e. how you live) and what you think, study and believe (frontals on the forehead). The revelation factor is interesting. BTW did you know that the Jews call Revelation the 'stolen book', since all of the images and prophecies are contained within the Old Testament?

autryn2 wrote:

"You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates”
(Love of God=Christ=Christ's blood=His sacrifice=Lamb of God=lambs blood=blood on the doorposts during the passover in Egypt=love God to avoid His wrath... again).

Yes again. This is also where the mezuza comes from. It is a little box that this portion of the scripture is placed into and put on the entrances and exits of the house.

love God to avoid His wrath:
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments… He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and I will manifest Myself to him” (John 14:15, 21)

Who was Jesus, was he God (i.e. unchanging) or just a man?

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:
"Who was Jesus, was he God (i.e. unchanging) or just a man?"
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I believe Jesus was who He said He was:

From John Chapter 14:
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[1] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

And from Matthew 23rd Chapter:
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ

And from John Chapter 8:
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
20"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[1] you will indeed die in your sins."
25"Who are you?" they asked.
26"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
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The Methodist Church (which I am a member of) docterine states that we believe that God exists as a trinity ... one being-three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of our world, sent by His Father, God, to die for the sins of the world. Does this make Him the same entity as God??? I dunno, but CERTAINLY He is one in purpose with God.

[LC Jeffries]

Bravo Autryn, Bravo. :Bow: :Bow:

[dcookcan]

Didn't Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I Am." John 8:58 :confused:

So what was He saying then?

This statement upset the Pharisees in a big way. They new exactly what He was saying and they didn't like it.


14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Why was His testimony valid if He testifies of Himself?
"By the testimony of two or three witnesses, a matter is confirmed." New or Old Testament, take yer pick - I don't have the references handy.

I can answer these questions for you, but my purpose is to make you think about it. :D

[autryn2]

dcookcan wrote:

"Why was His testimony valid if He testifies of Himself? "
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Me-n-uou, dcookcan, are looking at this statement from two different perspectives: Yours (I think) is from the argumentative point of view in that you are using 'rules of engagement' in trying to explain why Jesus' testamony is not valid. (the 'rule' is that all men need 2 or 3 witnesses for their testimony to be valid).

My point of view is that Jesus IS (in reality - not merely claim) the Son of God.... therefore He KNOWS who He is, why He is here (on earth), what He must do while He is here, and where He is going after He accomplishes His mission. The Pharisees, on the other hand, were using human 'rules of engagement' to argue with (what they thought) was just another man.

The above argument is about Authority, not winning an argument. Jesus was saying that he didn't need any other witnesses than the ultimate witness: His father God... because God had given Him (Jesus) that authority.

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BTW, dcookcan, I enjoy your point of view.... its obvious you are learned.

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dcookcan wrote:

"Didn't Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I Am." John 8:58

So what was He saying then?"
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In the same chaper, Jesus said this before He said the above:

56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
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In my opinion, Jesus was telling them more than just one thing (at least, it tells me more than one). First, He was saying that there is another place, other than earth, where people live (Heaven), and that He was destined to be the Christ before the earthly birth of Abraham.

It also testifies to me that this earth is probably not the first earth...

Think about some scripture first.....
In revelations: and then there will be a new Heaven and a new Earth (but no mention of a new people)
In the New Testament: those that do the will of my Father in Heaven, THOSE are my mother and my brothers (implying that it takes ACTION.... obedience to God.... to be elevated in the Kingdom of Heaven)....

So.... why is Christ the Son of God???? My GUESS is that He is because of His actions and not that He was just 'appointed' by His heavenly Father prior to the beginning of this world. Which implies that this earth and our existence here is not the first and that Christ got the call to be savior of this world because God could trust Him to be faithful with His father's difficult mission to die as a sarcifice for many. Maybe Jesus EARNED that trust in a former life.....

The above falls under the category of "things I wonder about" but don't profess as being true (just a possibility).
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I DO profess this, however, as being true:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "
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So whether this is the first time or not I accept Jesus's authority as Gods' appointed messiah.

[dcookcan]

Me-n-uou, dcookcan, are looking at this statement from two different perspectives: Yours (I think) is from the argumentative point of view in that you are using 'rules of engagement' in trying to explain why Jesus' testamony is not valid. (the 'rule' is that all men need 2 or 3 witnesses for their testimony to be valid).

Not so. His testimony was valid. I am mearly challenging your thought process. He had to fulfill the Law and the Prophets - perfectly. But His statement would seem to contradict the Laws that God set in place.


The Pharisees, on the other hand, were using human 'rules of engagement' to argue with (what they thought) was just another man.

These were not man's rules. They were set in place by God (see Hebrews 10:28 I don't have the O.T. reference(s) in front of me) and we can see Jesus referencing them in other places such as the woman caught in adultery - "Where are your accusers?".

BTW - thanks - I am enjoying this discussion.

The answer to this puzzle is not found in a simple "Greek" thought process, you may have to dig deep to find the answer, but it will be well worth it. :grin

[Defiant Noquisi]

Defiant Noquisi:

My Bible (NIV) reads:

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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I'm no expert, but I think the author is trying to say that people who haven't accepted the Holy Spirit (eg, not saved) cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit of God. I DON'T think the author is trying to say certain people don't need to know Christ. :~) You bring up something very interesting because of the various versions. It can be and is very hard to decipher the exact intent of the author. Im a very practical person. Since the most traditional of spiritual Indian people have not lost "contact" with the Creator and since the Creator has never suggested to these people that we have to turn to another religion, I dont. There has never been a time in our history that it has been required of us to seek "salvation" or "saving".

What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine. I have been called all sorts of things from "devil worshipper" to "blasphemer" without that person understanding that I happen to be a very spiritual person and have no problem or weakness in my belief of "God". My beliefs are held with complete disregard mostly, because they are not Christian based beliefs.


. the people you described in your other posts were NOT Christians based on their actions. Rather, they were "wolves in sheep's clothing". Jesus tells us to beware and avoid these people. Hehe, I already do even if he didnt tell me. I am one of the few who welcome the changes coming. We dont have anyone "marked" with any kind of beastial number, well leave that up to those who it is significant for.

Thanks for the apologies. However, if you are living your life in the ways your beliefs are meant to be, and you are not forcing or subjugating others to your beliefs, you have no reason to have to apologize for anything. You arent the guilty party. :grin

[autryn2]

Defiant Noquisi:
I am SO glad you came back and read my post.... I thought maybe you wouldn't. You wrote: "you have no reason to have to apologize for anything".

Well, ....yeah, BUT I am equal parts sorry that others have 'tainted' your conception of what Christianity (and the Christian God) is and MAD at those who have committed this grevous sin. Jesus told His desciples to stay away from even the appearence of evil so others wouldn't think of Him or God His father as being false. Jesus ESPECIALLY was condemming of those that cause the innocent to go astray: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. "
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Defiant Noquisi wrote:
"There has never been a time in our history that it has been required of us to seek "salvation" or "saving". What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine.
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I think BOTH of your statements can be explained by the following scripture:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
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The above scripture is called the "Great Commission". It is Christ commanding all believers to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ALL THE WORLD. People who really believe in Christ take the above scripture VERY seriously. We believe that Christ is our Boss (Lord, Master, etc...) and that we are supposed to be obedient to His orders.... SO, we are to take the Gospel (the story of Jesus) to the WHOLE WORLD. To the one that takes his(her) orders seriously, that means to tell everyone. Jesus knew that in other parts of the world people believed in other things but He didn't say go and spread the gospel only to those that have no other religion. He said to "make disciples of all nations"--- EVERYBODY (and I'm pretty sure that includes the Indian tribes and you, my dear).

I understand it when you say that "there has never been a time in OUR history that it has been required of us to seek salvation or saving". The responsibility of spreading the Gospel is upon the believer, not the one who hasn't heard the Gospel. Thats probably why the "Real Christians" are so pushy about their beliefs.
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Defiant Noquisi wrote:
"What has been most difficult for me in discussions with people of other religious persuasions(virtually all Christian), is that they cannot see any validity in mine. "
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Jesus also said in the Gospel "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man commeth unto the Father except by me". Jesus was saying that He is the ONLY way to God (and Heaven) so those pushy Christians that have no respect for the purity and strength of your faith think they are saving you from an eternity of fire (even though they are hard to put up with).
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I guess the purpose of my post to you is to help you understand that Christians are, after all, just people.... with a multitude of faults. SOME are trying (real hard) to represent God on this world. They are destined to fall short (even if they are dilligent and pure of heart) because people are flawed (like me) and God is PERFECT. So, try not to think that Christianity is false because those that represent Christ many times do such a lousy job (indeed, there are many who really DON'T believe at all, but just SAY they do to gain some sort of earthly advantage..... belive me, they have their reward waiting on them).

[Defiant Noquisi]

Defiant Noquisi:
I am SO glad you came back and read my post.... I thought maybe you wouldn't. Naw, I wouldnt not read it. Im kind of in and out these days. Ive been taking pics of my mom's things and posting them up for my brother so we can decide what we want. That has not been easy at all but it has forced me to deal with her death. I have been having a very hard time with it. Im not entirely "sociable" yet but Im getting there.


BUT I am equal parts sorry that others have 'tainted' your conception of what Christianity (and the Christian God) is and MAD at those who have committed this grevous sin. To be honest Ive done alot of thinking after that post. I have to say that there is a 3-way tie between the "bad stuff", bible study and connecting with my heritage that has led me away from the Christian church. Still, you may be upset with those who "say" they are living by "the word" but if you arent doing it yourself then you are not responsible. Id never expect you to apologize for Swaggart or Bakker either.


I think BOTH of your statements can be explained by the following scripture:

From Matthew Chapter 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
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The above scripture is called the "Great Commission". It is Christ commanding all believers to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ALL THE WORLD. Here is an example of where things get dicey for me and where I started to have my doubts. The Corinthians passage applies here too because you are correct in that it doesnt "directly" identify one race of people, but does identify those who would not believe "the word". Here goes...

Nowhere did I find anything, through bible study or asking those more knowledgable, could I find what that exactly meant. Since nowhere in the scriptures does it identify knowledge of other continents or cultures outside of those directly affected by "the word", how can it apply elsewhere? Yes, there is a passage about going out among the Gentiles, but thats where it stops. Nowhere does it discuss anything about other continents or regions outside of the Jewish/Christian/Roman area. In fact, no one in those areas even knew of the existance of other continents other than through trade of which there was none with what is now known as the Americas.

Since the bible stops there in regards to the spreading of the teachings, it is my belief that if true, was meant for only the people in the regions it was written for. In other words "all nations" that have direct contact with those whose job it was to spread said word.

Since Christian people have since moved "here" the same still applies in my opinion. You can have it and you can share it with those interested, but for someone to say that *I* am going to burn in hell because I dont follow it is way out of line.


People who really believe in Christ take the above scripture VERY seriously. We believe that Christ is our Boss (Lord, Master, etc...) and that we are supposed to be obedient to His orders.... SO, we are to take the Gospel (the story of Jesus) to the WHOLE WORLD. I dont doubt the seriousness, Ive been there. I do doubt the intent. Again, since the bible doesnt specifically mention other continents, I dont believe it applies to the Americas. Also, since the bible is supposedly divinely inspired, Im having difficulty in that the Americas (I know they wernt called that at the time since no one knew of them) were never mentioned.


He said to "make disciples of all nations"--- EVERYBODY (and I'm pretty sure that includes the Indian tribes and you, my dear). As I mentioned before, since our Elders and all our traditional people (and not so traditional like me) hold a very close relationship with the Creator and since the Creator has never brought this up to us, I dont believe it. I will if the Creator ever does. Apparently there is no need. Since there is no need, this is where the problem begins. Thats mighty presumptuous to think we should be made "disciples" in YOUR view. That is disregarding OUR (as in Indian) beliefs since weve never been asked to do this. If the Creator intended us to be disciples, he would tell us to do that. You are assuming that we have no relationship or belief in the Creator. Also, why should I believe the words of man when something much higher does not tell me to do this?


Jesus also said in the Gospel "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man commeth unto the Father except by me". Jesus was saying that He is the ONLY way to God (and Heaven) so those pushy Christians that have no respect for the purity and strength of your faith think they are saving you from an eternity of fire (even though they are hard to put up with). True but even the ones that arent pushy look down on me and my beliefs since I do not believe in a heaven or a hell. I believe the earth will be cleansed and brought back to a more virtuous state, but I do not believe that I need to go through anyone other than the Creator to get there. We have no beliefs in a "marked" person that will bring this about, but we do believe that the cleansing will come. I dont not believe Jesus existed, there are too many historical works that mention him. I dont believe he is my saviour since it hasnt been required of me that I needed one.


I guess the purpose of my post to you is to help you understand that Christians are, after all, just people.... with a multitude of faults. I accept and know that people have faults. I just wish those same people werent compelled to "save" me or see me as "wrong" in that I have my own (as well as millions of people like me) relationship with the Creator. I dont need man to interpret for me what the Creator already has.