Creation Questions And Answers

[Truth Files]

A cut from my website .....

The Bible is a book of beginnings and endings and there is much detail presented about earthly things of significance in between.

Does the Bible answer questions related to the existence of the earth, its creation, its purpose, its place in the material universe, its past, and future ?

Yes it does, but it takes time and effort on the part of the believer to study, ponder, and understand a wide range of the scriptures and their correct applications in order to grasp what the Lord is telling us.

The most advanced students of His Word realize that He has not revealed everything to them and that acceptance of this truth will produce a more accurate understanding of some subjects.

He tells us that in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth. We are not told when or exactly how this was done. We know by observation that these things exist because we can detect them with our senses.

There has been much controversy about when and how He created the material universe and observable life forms, particularly humans of our kind who have been created in His image.

This is primarily because of the credibility factor and questions arising from the apparent inconsistencies of what the Bible says and what humans think they observe by discoveries and evaluations of the material world.

Several positions have developed over time for the purpose of either proving or disproving the validity of the Bible as an accurate record of the past, present, and future in regard to the material universe and related life forms.

The positions range from a total rejection of the Bible as truth choosing to rely upon scientific discovery and observation to total reliance on the Bible as the Word of God and authority on creation.

I will address the apparent disparity between the Biblical account of creation, genealogical time inconsistencies, and related observations of the material world.

There are a number of approaches that deal with these issues and at least three significant ones.

The first is that the heavens and earth are very old and the Lord has used an evolutionary process of creation which has taken a very long time to reach the level of human kind.

The attempt here is to extend the six creation days in Genesis into long immeasurable lengths of time.

Creation and evolution continue during each of the six periods. Human evolution then becomes the end result which occurred about 6,000 years ago.

Proponents blend evolutionary processes to account for a very old earth and the recent appearance of humans of our kind to fit the biblical genealogical time frame of about 6,000 years for human existence.

A second theory proposes that the heavens and the earth are in fact very young and only about 6,000 to 10,000 years old. Much is done to refute modern scientific methods and evaluations in order to prove this.

If true, then there is no need to make reconciliation for the time differences between the observed apparent age of the universe and the human genealogical record in the Bible.

I would suggest that neither of these theories give adequate understanding of the Biblical account of creation and related observations made through discovery and analysis.

They are both self limiting and do not provide the best presentations for supporting the Genesis record of creation.

The first theory ignores the literal 24 hour day indicated by the rotation of the earth and the life form "kind after kind" process.

There is also a tendency to support or compromise with the pure theory of evolution which does not include a creator.

There is no need for compromise on this issue in order to support the Bible's picture of creation. Genesis clearly tells us that the Lord used six 24 hour days to do His work.

There is also clear explanation that distinct life forms were created separately and that they reproduce in kind, not by evolution from one species to another.

The second theory limits His creative time frame to only a few thousand years with no indication of any previous knowledge of His existence or actions.

Attempts are also made to prove scientifically that the earth and universe are very young and this is an exercise in futility.

What was the Lord doing before 6,000 years ago ? Did He sit around for billions of years doing nothing and then start His process of creating the universe ?

In the beginning He created the heavens and the earth "together".... at the same time. Genesis 1:1 states this fact.

Our solar system's components were created in the beginning and were not later additions to the universe. Neither was the earth created first with the other components like our sun and moon added later.

We know today that the earth's orbit is dependent upon the existence of the sun's gravitational attraction, not the other way around.

The earth was obviously present in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. To say that the Lord then created and added the sun and moon next is absurd.

One must use common sense and allow for guidance of His Holy Spirit in the process of interpreting His Word.

Those who manipulate scriptures in order to support their unique interpretations of the Bible cause one to question their credibility.

The heavens and earth are in fact very old by observation and by evaluation through at least a few proven physical laws like the speed of light. Even our own solar system has the visible markings of age, degeneration, and judgment.

We have evidence today that planets close to the earth once had environments like the earth. Now they are desolate and uninhabitable. What happened to them and when ?

There is a third view of these issues which I consider to be much more correct and convincing with no need to compromise, twist, or deceive. The Lord's Word is totally true, complete, and reliable when understood properly.

There is not a great deal of scriptural information addressing this subject, but there is enough to grasp an understanding that makes sense.

Not everything in the Bible can be proven by human intellect and observation and must be accepted on faith.

Genesis chapter 1:1 indicates that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. This opening statement tells us that He exists and that He created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

There is a summary of His creating and forming activities in Genesis that includes the beginning, reconditioning of the earth, creation of replacement life forms, and creation of humans in His own image. [Genesis 2:1-8]

This summary is a recap of how the heavens and the earth came into existence and the generations or phases of His actions.

The "day" (time) in which the Lord "created" is not just one day, but the times and generations of His creative and forming acts. [Genesis 2:4]

These included those in the beginning and those about 6,000 years ago. Humans were His final act of creation for this present generation.

He will renovate and create again after this present age of man's rule of the earth comes to an end. [2Peter 3:10; Revelation 20, 21]

We are not told when the beginning of His creative acts took place. There is substantial evidence in scripture that satan and the fallen angels rebelled against Him sometime between the beginning of creation and Genesis 1:2.

We can only speculate as to what was going on during the time from the beginning and Genesis 1:2.

The Lord created the angels first and then the material universe and other life forms. We know this because all things were created by Him and the angels observed His creative acts. [Job 38:4-7]

One third of the angels followed satan in rebellion against the Lord sometime between the beginning of creation and 6,000 years ago. Satan and his angels will be cast and confined to the earth at the end of this present age. [Revelation 12:4-9]

Satan's rebellion, sin, and the presence of evil were all operative before the reconditioning of the earth and subsequent creation of humans.

Sin entered the human race through Adam as a result of the choice to disobey the Lord's advice and that we must reject the idea of separating from His providence, direction, and trusting relationship. [Genesis 2:6-17]

There are significant references available to us in scripture and the physical observation of the material world regarding these issues which can enhance our understanding of Biblical truths about creation.

The earth is the only inhabitable planet in our solar system for life forms that we know of from recent observation. Environments for life support do not exist on any of the other planets.

We find that there is much evidence of death, decay, and destruction of very old life forms buried beneath the earth's surface.

Large reptilian creatures have been found that existed before humans of our kind were created. There is no record of the existence of these creatures in scripture.

Their huge size and the impact they would have had on humanity would be there for sure. One should conclude that these creatures existed before Genesis 1:2.

We can also observe an apparent long term decadent entropic decline of life forms from the fossil remains of these creatures and many others.

This decline was part of their life cycle and this is different than what one would expect of the Lord's original creation. Something motivated Him to cause this process of entropy and death to operate in His universe.

There is also an apparent desire by the Lord to create new heavens and an earth in the future which will be eternally perfect. This change will involve a return to the conditions of His original and perfect creation. [Romans 8:18-22; Revelation 21]

[Truth Files]

Creation questions and answers continued .....

The original creation was balanced, stable, and perfected. For example we are told that satan was created perfect in every way. [Ezekiel 28:12-19]

One can then conclude from this that the rebellion of satan and one third of the angels resulted in the Lord's judgment and subsequent decline of the original creation.

It does appear to us that the other planets and moons in our solar system had environments similar to the earth in the distant past.

If the earth is the same age as the others and all were created in the beginning before Genesis 1:2, then one could speculate that satan's fall resulted in the Lord's widespread judgment of the material universe.

This would bring us to Genesis 1:2 and the following reconditioning of the earth for the habitation of living life forms, with no similar adjustments to any of the other planets and moons.

Genesis 1:2 opens with an earth that is void of all living life forms and has experienced significant upheaval and destruction. One should ponder this and view the Lord's actions from the perspective of being located on the earth.

We could speculate that the Lord's initial phase of the judgment process was to freeze the earth and cover it with ice. This would explain the "ice age" that we have observed. All life forms on the earth were destroyed in the process.

A warming of the earth would then produce the water cover [waters below] and the water vapor [waters above] as described in Genesis. The earth is described as being desolated and totally covered with surface waters.

The space immediately above the waters is saturated with thick water vapors (dense clouds). There is no visibility, everything was in total darkness on the earth.

The sun, moon, earth's solar system, and universe were present, but these could not be seen from the earth. They were created in the beginning long before Genesis 1:2 and were made visible again from the earth by the Lord's reconditioning actions.

The time is about 6,000 years ago and He moved rapidly to prepare the desolated earth for the habitation of life forms including the initial introduction of humans of our kind. [Genesis 1:2]

His actions begin in Genesis 1:3. He dissipates enough of the cloud mass (waters above) above the surface waters so that a faint glow of light coming from the sun can be seen.

The statement "let there be light" is not a creative act, but the result of the dissipation process.

Light was created in the beginning when He created the heavens and the earth, but obscured by the conditions of judgment.

The dissipation process allowed for one to observe day and night because of the rotation of the earth and enough light from the sun.

He then separated the waters above from the waters below and formed the atmosphere between them. This was necessary for the support of the new life forms that were to come.

Next He caused the surface waters on the earth to recede to the extent that dry land appeared in various areas.

Natural vegetation seed that already existed in the earth began to grow and reproduce at an accelerated rate.

Further dissipation of the atmospheric cloud mass allowed for observation of the sun, moon, and stars from the earth. He made these to be lights appearing in the atmosphere by observation from the earth's surface and for distinct purposes.

He created them in the beginning long before 6,000 years ago, but made them appear and function for the reconditioned earth.

Next He created new life forms to replace those destroyed by His former judgment of the earth. These were distinctly different creatures who multiply only in kind and in distinct habitations. They are very much like the ones living on the earth today.

Earlier life forms that existed prior to the Lord's judgment of the earth were similar but also included creatures that He did not replace.

Evidence of these extinct life forms are found in the fossil discoveries today like large reptilian creatures.

Dinosaurs existed before Genesis 1:2 and they were not replaced by the Lord when He created the new life forms recorded in Genesis 1:20-26.

Claims have been made in modern times that some of these still exist, but they are not convincing.

There has been speculation that two creatures described in the book of Job are dinosaurs which coexisted with humans and lived in Job's day.

Careful analysis of behemoth and leviathan as they are described leads to a very different conclusion. [Job 40:15-24, 41:1-34]

The first one is the manatee, or dugong, and the second one is the legendary crocodile. Neither of these should be confused with the dinosaurs of the pre-Adamite earth.

Manatees are aquatic air breathing mammals who spend much of their time eating marsh and under water grasses. The Biblical description says that behemoth eats grass like the ox.

The manatee has a very large unique tail which can rotate in any direction and is used to propel it through the water.

The design of the tail, very strong diaphragm muscles, and sensitive snout feelers used for detection in searching for food are described in scripture.

The creature's rear appendages are merged together internally to form its multi-directional tail. This provides the power and flexibility for the large manatee to move through the water at amazing speed.

Movement of the tail is much like the movement of a large tree swaying in the wind. The statement "it moves its tail like a cedar" is used to describe this action.

They have large thick tails. The largest manatee on record in modern times is about 3,500 pounds.

This creature also has the densest bones of any other known animal. The bones have no marrow and are exceptionally strong.

The bones are so dense and thick that when the manatee expounds enough air from its lungs, it sinks immediately to the bottom of the water like a submarine. This bone structure is described in Scripture.

The Manatee has a very humble spirit and is described in contrast to leviathan who is mean spirited and aggressive.

Behemoth's temperament is described as the "chief ways of the Lord", or primary and receptive behavior. Leviathan displays the opposite trait of His latent wrath.

Manatees inhabited costal waters of the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and associated river systems like the Jordan in Job's day. This is the Biblical description of the manatee (dugong, sea cow).

The description of leviathan is a dead ringer for the crocodile. This creature has both a larger pre-Adamite fossil record and a more recent smaller version which is described in the book of Job.

Even the smaller version of this obnoxious reptilian is extremely dangerous and highly implacable.

They are at the top of the food chain and known for their fearless aggressive behavior. The Bible's description is accurate and appropriate.

The sparks, fire, and smoke that proceed from his mouth are symbolic of his great wrath when he is in attack mode. He does not actually produce the sparks, fire, and smoke, but one might think so if ever confronted by this killing machine.

The crocodile's angry, relentless, and sudden attack is very much like the Lord's wrath in judgment which is often described with symbolic fire and brimstone.

The Lord's final act associated with the reconditioning of the earth about 6,000 years ago was the creation of human kind. We are distinctly different from all of the other living creatures including the angelic beings.

We are spirits with physical bodies created in His own image. No other beings of his creation have this distinction.

His extend plans and purposes for the human are eternal and future from the present. We are creatures with independent wills and must choose our ultimate destiny.

[Cartesiantheater]

[...]

Evidence of these extinct life forms are found in the fossil discoveries today like large reptilian creatures.

Some of them were similar to reptiles. Some of them were similar to birds. All of them shared characteristics of both types.





Dinosaurs existed before Genesis 1:2 and they were not replaced by the Lord when He created the new life forms recorded in Genesis 1:20-26.

Claims have been made in modern times that some of these still exist, but they are not convincing.

They are not convincing to people who pick and choose (based on their theology, or just as often lack of understanding of the nuts and bolts of the science) which aspects of science to accept and which to reject.





There has been speculation that two creatures described in the book of Job are dinosaurs which coexisted with humans and lived in Job's day.

Careful analysis of behemoth and leviathan as they are described leads to a very different conclusion. [Job 40:15-24, 41:1-34]

The first one is the manatee, or dugong, and the second one is the legendary crocodile. Neither of these should be confused with the dinosaurs of the pre-Adamite earth.

I can agree with that. Considering the millions of dinosaur species that existed, it seems kind of ridiculous to group them all by two words, while bears, lions, etc aren't grouped like that and are all listed separately by species.






[...]
The description of leviathan is a dead ringer for the crocodile. This creature has both a larger pre-Adamite fossil record and a more recent smaller version which is described in the book of Job.

Even the smaller version of this obnoxious reptilian is extremely dangerous and highly implacable.

They are at the top of the food chain and known for their fearless aggressive behavior. The Bible's description is accurate and appropriate.

Yeah, a crocodile or something similar seems right.





The sparks, fire, and smoke that proceed from his mouth are symbolic of his great wrath when he is in attack mode. He does not actually produce the sparks, fire, and smoke, but one might think so if ever confronted by this killing machine.

Or maybe the writer of that part of scripture was basing the words on hearsay, which can eventually be traced to the embellishment of someone's observation of the creature?





The crocodile's angry, relentless, and sudden attack is very much like the Lord's wrath in judgment which is often described with symbolic fire and brimstone.

The Lord's final act associated with the reconditioning of the earth about 6,000 years ago was the creation of human kind. We are distinctly different from all of the other living creatures including the angelic beings.

How do you explain human fossils that are many times older than 6,000 years?

Oh, that's right, you just ignore that evidence because it doesn't fit in with your theology.

UNLESS...




We are spirits with physical bodies created in His own image. No other beings of his creation have this distinction.

Maybe mankind didn't have a SPIRIT prior to about 6,000 years ago? Perhaps that would explain the so-called "Pre-Adamic" races, eh?





One other issue I have with you:

Why do you accept THIS:


The heavens and earth are in fact very old by observation and by evaluation through at least a few proven physical laws like the speed of light. Even our own solar system has the visible markings of age, degeneration, and judgment.

And yet reject other science, including cosmological laws that absolutely FORBID the existence of planets until AFTER the first stars died (barring magic, of course)?

For example:


The sun, moon, earth's solar system, and universe were present, but these could not be seen from the earth. They were created in the beginning long before Genesis 1:2



and were made visible again from the earth by the Lord's reconditioning actions.

And this seems quite arbitrary. Why this?






If you're just assuming a little bit LESS magic than normal creations, why stop there? Why not just go full magic?

[Truth Files]

Hey Cartesian,

Thanks for the response

I call it like I see it

What's your magic?

[Cartesiantheater]

Hey Cartesian,

Thanks for the response

I call it like I see it

What's your magic?

For example, instead of God actually following the laws of physics (that he presumably created), you have God VIOLATING them by creating the solar system at the beginning of the universe.

Rocky planets cannot exist without heavy elements, and heavy elements cannot exist until some stars die and produce them.

So, in order for the solar system to exist at the beginning of the universe, God must have used magic to put them there, because violating physical laws requires magic.

(or whatever word you want to use if you find the word "magic" to be offensive. Some Christians certainly don't like their God associated with Witchcraft, but I don't mean witch magic, I mean God magic)

[Truth Files]

Cartesian,

I would suggest the biblical account for you .... no magic there .... all truth

[Cartesiantheater]

Cartesian,

I would suggest the biblical account for you .... no magic there .... all truth

I consider anything that violates physical law to be magic. So you're telling me there is nothing in the biblical account that violates physical law?

[Truth Files]

"So you're telling me there is nothing in the biblical account that violates physical law?"

>This is true, but with some things that human knowledge would consider to be exceptions

>Here are two examples:

Job
26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

1Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

>Do you believe the following?

His opening statement to us is that in the beginning He created the heavens (universe) which include the earth and other celestial bodies. [Genesis 1:1]

He can create substance, matter, and life forms out of nothing and He fashions His desired creations and objectives from these things.

He also reconditions and adjusts any of His creative results at will, and He can also eliminate, remove, or destroy the same. [Genesis 1:2; 2Peter 3:10; Revelation 21]

He is an infinite spirit being who has always existed and will continue to exist into the infinite future. [John 1:1-3; Revelation 1:8]

He is not dependent upon and is not subject to any part of His creation including life forms, powers, principalities, or the material universe that He creates.

He is uniquely self-sufficient and needs nothing outside of Himself. He is the Alpha [beginning] and the Omega [end] of all things. His existence is timeless.

He has definite eternal plans and designs for His creation(s), is all-knowing [total perfect knowledge], is omnipresent [everywhere all of the time], and is pre-cognizant [knows all that will happen in advance].

He is all-powerful, totally trustworthy, possesses great care and concern for all that He creates, and He always ultimately succeeds in everything He sets out to accomplish.

[DontBeAfraid]

I would suggest the biblical account for you .... no magic there .... all truth
You get neg rep for CHOOSING not to think.

[DontBeAfraid]

He is all-powerful, totally trustworthy, possesses great care and concern for all that He creates, and He always ultimately succeeds in everything He sets out to accomplish. So he is the reason that children are raped and killed...

[Cartesiantheater]

"So you're telling me there is nothing in the biblical account that violates physical law?"

>This is true, but with some things that human knowledge would consider to be exceptions

Physical law is physical law. If God violates it, he violates it.




>Here are two examples:

Job
26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The earth just sitting in some location in space is not a violation of physical law.





1Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Yep, that is definitely a violation of physical law. It violates thermodynamics.

So THAT is magic.


... UNLESS he actually DOES it in a way somewhat like this:

uses undiscovered properties of spacetime to go back in time and recover the people before they die OR recover genetic samples, whilst simultaneously copying the electromagnetic data in their brains, then creating genetic clones of them, aging them while they are unconscious, and then uploading the data from their brains that he previously copied.





>Do you believe the following?

His opening statement to us is that in the beginning He created the heavens (universe) which include the earth and other celestial bodies. [Genesis 1:1]

No. The earth did not come into existence at the same time the universe did. Or, rather, if it did it required a violation of physical law (aka magic).




He can create substance, matter, and life forms out of nothing


Definitely a violation of physical law, in fact a violation of the most fundamental one (conservation of energy).

So that too would require magic.



and He fashions His desired creations and objectives from these things.

As long as he "fashions" them in a way consistent with the laws of thermodynamics, etc, then doing such things would not require magic.




He also reconditions and adjusts any of His creative results at will, and He can also eliminate, remove, or destroy the same. [Genesis 1:2; 2Peter 3:10; Revelation 21]

Energy cannot be destroyed according to the laws of the universe, therefore in order for him to do it it requires the use of magic.





He is an infinite spirit being who has always existed and will continue to exist into the infinite future. [John 1:1-3; Revelation 1:8]

Energy is also infinite (that is, total energy does not change with time) since it can't be created nor destroyed (i.e. is conserved), so I see no reason for this to be fundamentally opposed to the laws of physics.




He is not dependent upon and is not subject to any part of His creation including life forms, powers, principalities, or the material universe that He creates.

Therefore he is magic. I know this already.





He is uniquely self-sufficient and needs nothing outside of Himself. He is the Alpha [beginning] and the Omega [end] of all things. His existence is timeless.

Magic, yes, Christians/believers have been saying this for millenia.




He has definite eternal plans and designs for His creation(s), is all-knowing [total perfect knowledge], is omnipresent [everywhere all of the time], and is pre-cognizant [knows all that will happen in advance].

Being all knowing definitely requires magic, because the laws of quantum physics prevent knowledge of all things simultaneously.





He is all-powerful, totally trustworthy, possesses great care and concern for all that He creates, and He always ultimately succeeds in everything He sets out to accomplish.

I won't get into the philosophical contradictions, since that's not what you and I are discussing, but most of the properties you ascribe to God require that God is a magical being of some sort.

[Truth Files]

"So he is the reason that children are raped and killed"

>No, human behavior is the reason .... humans have been created with free will

>This world is temporal and inhabited by lost humanity

[Truth Files]

"I won't get into the philosophical contradictions, since that's not what you and I are discussing, but most of the properties you ascribe to God require that God is a magical being of some sort."

>An awesome God indeed !!!

>Study His and you will discover His revealed truths .... no other way to find them

>He is much more complex than that what mere human scientific observational effort can produce


Romans
11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


>You say that you are a Christian ..... what do you basis your claim on

>Do you believe in Jesus CHrist and His willingness and ability yo save you for eternity?

>Describe your God

[Cartesiantheater]

>Describe your God

My God is one that isn't so shortsighted that he designed a universe with laws that he would later have to violate in order to get done what he originally planned.

[Truth Files]

Is He the God of the Bible? .... tell me more

[Cartesiantheater]

Is He the God of the Bible? .... tell me more

Clearly he is not the God of the Bible, because the God of the Bible constantly interferes with creation and his own physical laws. He changes his mind (see story of Jona, for example, and Noah (deciding to spare some of earth's residents)), has regrets (again, story of Noah), etc.

A more perfect God would never need to interfere, since he would be so Wise that his design of the universe would never require violating his own physical laws or otherwise interfering with it. He would never have regrets, because his planning from the beginning would be so flawless that he would never get results he didn't originally intend to, he would never "change his mind" because his original decisions would be perfect, etc.


Your God is fallible, mine isn't.

[Truth Files]

"Your God is fallible, mine isn't"

>Who is your God?

>What proof do you have of your God's existance?

[Cartesiantheater]

"Your God is fallible, mine isn't"

>Who is your God?

My God is Spinoza's/Einstein's God (leaning more to the latter).

This was a summation of the original basis:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Theologico-Political_Treatise_1862/Table_of_Contents

(particularly the parts on miracles, where the quotes below come from, since they are most pertinent)


Here is Spinoza, and my faith dovetails with his opinion on this subject.


But as nothing is absolutely true save by divine decree alone, it is evident that the universal laws of nature are the very decrees of God, which result necessarily from the perfection of the Divine nature. If, therefore, anything happened in nature at large repugnant to its universal laws, this would be equally and necessarily repugnant to the decrees and intelligence of God; so that any one who maintained that God acted in opposition to the laws of nature would at the same time be forced to maintain that God acted in opposition to his proper nature, an idea than which nothing can be imagined more absurd.

[...]

Nothing, then, happens in nature which is in contradiction with its universal laws.

[...]

From these premises, therefore, viz. that nothing happens in nature which does not follow from its laws; that these laws extend to all which enters into the divine mind; and, lastly, that nature proceeds in a fixed and changeless course

[...]

Did aught consequently take place in nature which did not follow from its everlasting laws, it would necessarily contravene the order which God has established in nature by the universal laws he has decreed for its government, and would thus subvert nature and its laws, and consequently lead to general scepticism and atheism. From these views and reasonings I think I have sufficiently established my second proposition, and believe we may safely conclude anew that a miracle, whether contrary to nature or above nature, is a sheer absurdity; [...]




Emphasis mine.

Naturally as we learn the laws of nature our understanding of "God" changes, but the laws themselves are eternally immutable.

Conservation of energy is never violated in a closed system, for example. It is one of nature's laws, and therefore God's. If God violated the conservation of energy, he would be violating his own nature.



And Einstein's modern adaptation of some of these ideas are what I base my "religious" beliefs upon. Some particular beliefs I share with Einstein:




See here (http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/spinoza2.html) for a little more detail.

And here (http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/meaninglife.html) on the meaning of life.

And here on the existence of souls (http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/soul.html) and immortality.



But my God is one who creates a universe in which Natural Law is immutable.




>What proof do you have of your God's existance?

Observable reality (the universe IS my God- or at least is literally part of it in the sense described by Spinioza/Einstein).

What proof do you have of yours?

[Cyranothe2nd]

It's so strange to me that, with the availability of information today, people still choose to believe in sad myths like creationism. It makes me wonder about the future of the human race.

[Truth Files]

Carte said:

"What proof do you have of yours?"

>His Word and the enlightenment of His Holy Spirit

>You did not answer my question to you .... where is the proof of your "spinoza's/Einstein" god?

[Truth Files]

Cyran said:

"It's so strange to me that, with the availability of information today, people still choose to believe in sad myths like creationism. It makes me wonder about the future of the human race."

2Peter
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[Ningishiddza]

It makes me wonder about the future of the human race.

Um, what future?


His Word and the enlightenment of His Holy Spirit

Enlightenment? Oh, yeah, that's right, I can rape any bitch I want, so long as I marry her, then that makes it A-OK and everything is just peachy.

According to your, um, "scriptures" (snicker):

Genesis 7:23 Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived

So that means Noah and his sons had...

Achondroplasia
Achromatopsia
Acid Maltase Deficiency
Adrenoleukodystrophy
Aicardi Syndrome
Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
Apert Syndrome
Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Dysplasia
Ataxia Telangiectasia
Barth Syndrome
Blue Rubber Bleb Nevus Syndrome
Canavan Disease
Cri Du Chat Syndrome
Cystic Fibrosis
Dercum's Disease
Ectodermal Dysplasia
Fanconi Anemia
Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva
Fragile X Syndrome
Galactosemia
Gaucher Disease
Hemochromatosis
Hemophilia
Huntington's Disease
Hurler Syndrome
Hypophosphatasia
Klinefelter Syndrome
Krabbes Disease
Langer-Giedion Syndrome
Leukodystrophy
Long QT Syndrome
Marfan Syndrome
Moebius Syndrome
Mucopolysaccharidosis (MPS)
Nail Patella Syndrome
Nephrogenic Diabetes Insipidus
Neurofibromatosis
Niemann-Pick Disease
Osteogenesis Imperfecta
Porphyria
Prader-Willi Syndrome
Progeria
Proteus Syndrome
Retinoblastoma
Rett Syndrome
Rubinstein-Taybi Syndrome
Sanfilippo Syndrome
Shwachman Syndrome
Sickle Cell Disease
Smith-Magenis Syndrome
Stickler Syndrome
Tay-Sachs Disease
Thrombocytopenia Absent Radius (TAR) Syndrome
Treacher Collins Syndrome
Trisomy
Tuberous Sclerosis
Turner's Syndrome
Urea Cycle Disorder
von Hippel-Lindau Disease
Waardenburg Syndrome
Williams Syndrome

and Wilson's Disease to name just a handful, because those are all genetic disorders.

If you deny that Noah and his sons had those genetic disorders, then you have no choice but to admit that they EVOLVED.

Have fun with that.

[Cartesiantheater]

Carte said:

"What proof do you have of yours?"

>His Word and the enlightenment of His Holy Spirit

>You did not answer my question to you .... where is the proof of your "spinoza's/Einstein" god?

First, I said my beliefs were BASED on those of Spinoza and Einstein, and closer to those of the latter (Einstein's beliefs were in turn influenced by, but not identical to, Spinoza's)

And second, as I said, the proof is observable reality.





My beliefs are divided among two possibilities (unlike yours in which you are absolutely certain of one belief).

The first one is as provable as your own existence is.

The second one is not provable, but it is reasonable.

So let me break it down in a way that is more to the point.




I believe EITHER (although both together is also in the scope of what I could believe):


(1) God is literally the universe/laws of physics. All you have to do to prove my god is prove that something exists.



(2) God never interferes with the universe because God has no desires. The universe is governed exclusively by natural law, which "he" either decreed at the beginning or manifested, and in fact the universe is literally an extension of God.

This is not provable, but unlike your belief, it does not conflict with either observable reality (since anything that is observed is the result of divine decree via the laws of physics), nor does it conflict with reason (because this God is not a personal God, it is the embodiment of physical laws).

While your beliefs certainly DO conflict with observable reality and reason (since they conflict with both observed and derived physical laws).






There is no logical weakness to my beliefs, other than the fact that the second is not provable. There is certainly no conflict with nature at all, since my beliefs about God, etc. are intimately connected with observable reality.


The only real attack on my beliefs you could muster is to claim that they are unfulfilling. For example, you could say that without a Personal God there is no Grand Meaning of life.

Of course, that is not even a logical necessity, since it's entirely possible that the universe has a purpose without a conscious God declaring it, but even if it didn't, it is no problem.

Why? Because the concept of meaninglessness is one invented by humans, and is not in any way an inherent part of the universe outside of that scope.

The universe simply IS.

Existence simply IS.



There are countless cultures throughout history in which people have been completely content with similar existential ideas. I simply don't require something outside me to impart a Grand Meaning to my life. Simply being a part of this universe is good enough for me, and being able to admire its beauty is more than I could ever ask for.

[Cartesiantheater]

I thought this would be a good thread to share this amazingly hilarious video/song about creationism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIwiPsgRrOs

[custompainter]

I have a creation question.
Who created God?

[Ningishiddza]

I have a creation question.
Who created God?

I did. She's in my pants right now. See ya.

[Truth Files]

"I did. She's in my pants right now. See ya."

>Statements like this one come from a disgusting tongue and a reprobate mind

>May the Lord have mercy upon you son ..... you are full of hate, bitterness, and rebellion

..... and your response here is repugnant and it carries the stench of a twisted demeanor

Seek Jesus Christ for His forgiveness and His salvation before it is too late for you

[Ningishiddza]

Seek Jesus Christ for His forgiveness and His salvation before it is too late for you

Jesus is dead and turned to dust. Jesus did the nasty with Mary Magdalene you know. It's in the gospels. Jesus loved her more than all the despicables, er I mean disciples.

So are you going to admit that those genetic disorders evolved or are you going to dodge the issue like the GFI does?

[Cyranothe2nd]

Wow, another person spamming the forum with Bible verses instead of having a real substantive conversation. Color me surprised.

TF--I know why you believe in creationism. It's in the Bible--that echo chamber of "believe this because the book says that it's true and you should believe it." But if you took the time to actually look at the scientific data, you would find the Bible is just...not right. Now, you could say that it was being metaphoric and many Christians do. But the literal interpretation of 24-hour days creation 6000 years ago is absurd on many many levels.

[Truth Files]

"Wow, another person spamming the forum with Bible verses instead of having a real substantive conversation. Color me surprised."

>I see we have anorher troll

>Game over for you

[Truth Files]

"Jesus is dead and turned to dust."

>Game over for the trolls

[Cartesiantheater]

They are not trolling you Truth Flies. Well maybe Ning is (it seems most of his posts are to get a rise out of people). They are serious in their criticism.

[Truth Files]

They are serious .... in serious trouble

[DontBeAfraid]

TF... If your god is all powerful then its power completely TRUMPS our "free will"... If we actually have "free will" then your god is lacking in power.

[Truth Files]

DBA,

Sorry but your logic does not compute

The Lord is all powerful as you say

..... but humans have been created with a free will in this temporal life as well

You must choose to seek Him .... or you can refuse to

[DontBeAfraid]

Sorry but your logic does not computeOnly if your brain is broken.

[Cartesiantheater]

DBA,

Sorry but your logic does not compute

The Lord is all powerful as you say

..... but humans have been create with a free will in this temporal life as well

You must choose to seek Him .... or you can refuse to

Was the death of Jesus a requirement for the salvation of mankind?

[Truth Files]

"Was the death of Jesus a requirement for the salvation of mankind?"

>Part of the plan for sure [Genesis 3:1-15]

[Cartesiantheater]

"Was the death of Jesus a requirement for the salvation of mankind?"

>Part of the plan for sure [Genesis 3:1-15]

But was it a requirement?

[Truth Files]

"But was it a requirement?"

This should be obvious

Anything that is part of God's plan is a requirement

Genesis 1:3 tells us that the Lord then moved to recondition the earth for the habitation of human beings who were to be created in His own image.

This unique creature would be His centerpiece with an ultimate journey to inhabit new heavens and a new earth which He will produce in the future. [Genesis 1:26-27; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:1-7; 22:1-5]

The first humans had the capacity of free will which allowed them to decide for themselves whether they would continue to live under the Lord's providence, guidance, and protection. He will also judge those who refuse Him [Romans 1:18-32; 2:1-11]

He does not force His will upon us when it comes to the question of whether we want to depend and rely upon Him for our well-being and our continued existence.

Adam and Eve were created in an environment that was very good, but still subject to entropy, decay, and death brought on by the Lord's prior judgment against satan's initial rebellion.

The Lord did not eliminate these conditions, but was willing to protect the first humans if they would trust and obey Him.

These conditions still exist today and were the result of the Lord's actions against satanic rebellion which involved at least two of His objectives.

The first was obviously to punish satan and the other fallen angels by limiting their use of His universe and their ultimate destruction. Revelation 20:10-15]

This would be an example of how He reacts to rebellion against the necessity of His creatures (created beings) to recognize the need for His role as the life source in relation to their very existence.

The second was to allow for human exposure to conditions that would force the choice of adhering to an existent relationship with Him, or to separate one's self from a dependency upon His role as creator and ruler of His universe.

The human must choose life and eternal existence, or death and elimination. He requires that we make this choice, and we must be confronted with this issue since we are not forced by Him into one or the other.[Daniel 12:1-2; Revelation 20:6]

What He has revealed to us is that the first choice is not possible without a willingness to trust, rely upon, and accept Him for who He is.

The second will be the result of rejection and if one refuses to address the issue the second choice is automatically implied. He made this very clear to Adam and Eve and then allowed for them to decide for themselves.

They chose the second option which separated their necessary relationship with Him and set them off on their own journey. We all do this and must return to a rightful relationship with Him.

He knew that the first humans would do this and allowed for it to take place. All of their descendants would then follow the same course up to this very day.

This condition creates the necessary contrast for us to evaluate our relationship to Him and His corresponding remedy for recovery.

He knows that the human will must be tested on this issue in order for one to voluntarily find the path back to an acceptable relationship with Him.

One must then choose to take it. If we do this He accepts our "willingness" unconditionally. Our approach has to be serious, truthful, and direct.

He will then set us on the path of return and give us the power to stay on course since we cannot do this totally on our own. Many humans have and will respond accordingly, but unfortunately most will not.

The Lord has said that the road to eternal life is a narrow one and few will find it. On the other hand, the road to death and destruction is a broad road, and most will take it. [Matthew 7:13-23]

[lycanox]

But why would an omnipotent being require something.

And while we are asking questions.

How come the day speaks of days and the creation of the first morning and evening. If there wasn't a sun and an earth yet.
Isn't that like inventing driving without inventing the car.

How come in Genesis it is explained that the stars were created for signs. But the bible later goes on that astrology is evil and that all star interpretors should be burned. Isn't that hypocrite.

And if there is only one god. Then why is god talking about himself in plural.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,

[Truth Files]

"But why would an omnipotent being require something."

>It is His creation [including humans]..... and He calls all of the shots and will ultimately succeed in all that He has set out to do

>Humans are sybjected to His ultimate direction .... we are created beings .... not gods

>I would suggest that read "The Big Picture" subject at my website

[Cartesiantheater]

"But was it a requirement?"

This should be obvious

Anything that is part of God's plan is a requirement

[...]


But why would an omnipotent being require something.

Exactly. Either it wasn't a requirement or your God is not all powerful.

An all powerful being is bound by nothing. Period.

[Truth Files]

"Exactly. Either it wasn't a requirement or your God is not all powerful.

An all powerful being is bound by nothing. Period."

>But the creator of the universe has a plan that He intends to stick to .... and all that is included .... which He has designed

>And He does not lie, but keeps His promises

>These things are conveyed in His Word .... which you reject

>You are going to find this out for sure .... sooner, or later

>Where is your hope? It appears to be no where at present [1Thessalonians 5:1-14]

>You and I have extremely different views and with little common ground so there is really no need to make discussion .... an exercise in futility

>I do not waste the Lord's time with idle conversation so Let's agree to end the dialogue

>I will address reasonable questions and comments, but there is no time for anything else .... time is of the essence today as we approach the end of this present age

>There is hope waiting for you, but you must seek it alone .... we all have to do this

[Cartesiantheater]

"Exactly. Either it wasn't a requirement or your God is not all powerful.

An all powerful being is bound by nothing. Period."

>But the creator of the universe has a plan that He intends to stick to .... and all that is included .... which He has designed

You mean when he changed his mind in the story of Noah and Jona?




>You and I have extremely different views and with little common ground so there is really no need to make discussion .... an exercise in futility

>I do not waste the Lord's time with idle conversation so Let's agree to end the dialogue

>I will address reasonable questions and comments, but there is no time for anything else .... time is of the essence today as we approach the end of this present age

>There is hope waiting for you, but you must seek it alone .... we all have to do this

I'll bet you've always come right to the door of enlightenment, but have repeatedly retreated either right when you are about to make the logical breakthrough or right when you started to feel the fear of the possibility, too afraid to completely leave the safe haven of the dogma you were force fed as a child.


I do understand why you would want to leave the debate right now. The very thin strings holding up the logical contradiction that is your faith are tenuous, and too much careful scrutiny might make the whole thing fall down. Unfortunately for you, you are the type that wants to walk the line between logic and reason and illogical and unreasonable faith. That's why people like you resort to apologetics. But often times the artificial barrier you set up for yourself comes tumbling down if you go to far toward the logic side.

Which is why you are leaving the debate at this time.

[custompainter]

Truth Files, I believe I asked a valid question and I would appreciate an answer to it.
Where does god come from? Who made him? Who were his parents? We know he's not from Jersey....SO???????????? Who CREATED God????
Ok that's like 4 questions....

[DontBeAfraid]

>It is His creation [including humans]..... and He calls all of the shots and will ultimately succeed in all that He has set out to doSo he WANTS little kids to be raped and killed?


>Humans are sybjected to His ultimate direction .... Its a part of his plan then... for sure.

[Truth Files]

"Who created God?"

>No one .... the Lord has always existed and will continue infinitely

.... and He creates all things out of nothing

Ponder on these things:

Revelation
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Job
38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

[debonnaire]

How come in Genesis it is explained that the stars were created for signs. But the bible later goes on that astrology is evil and that all star interpretors should be burned. Isn't that hypocrite.



What does divination has in common
with sea navigatio for sailors or leading the wisemen to Bethleem ?



And if there is only one god. Then why is god talking about himself in plural.


you surely are aware there is a long thread about the 'Trinity'.
To make it short and without adding more controversy, the Son is the exact image of the Father , and he participated to the Creation as well as the Holy Spirit.

[debonnaire]

How come the day speaks of days and the creation of the first morning and evening. If there wasn't a sun and an earth yet.
Isn't that like inventing driving without inventing the car.


Imo, the morning and evenings in Genesis express the beginning and the end of a period of time. which does not necessarily refers to sunrise and sunsets as we know it today.

[lycanox]

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Nice try, but the bible speaks about evenings and mornings as a result of inventing light.
Which is however impossible without a rotating planet and a sun. As they are caused by the rise and setting of the sun.

[custompainter]

"Who created God?"

>No one .... the Lord has always existed and will continue infinitely

.... and He creates all things out of nothing

Ponder on these things:

Revelation
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Job
38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Yea...that's what I thought. But don't feel bad, i've asked the same question many times of many "spritual" people and I always get the same answer.
My answer?...There is no answer because,there is no god. If there was a god,there would be an explanation as to the origin of his exsistance...hence the answer to my question.
By the way..I want,no I command you to come paint my house,not because I told you to face to face,no,but because I told some dude to write it in a book,and don't you dare question my authority,little less my existance. And you BETTER believe everything else I told him to write in the book also, or I will condemn your soul. :insert lightning and thunder:
UHHMMM Waiter? I'll have the cheeseburger and my friend here will have.....A REAL LIFE!
Thank you for your time. 'ave a noice day!

[Truth Files]

Psalms
2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Truth Files]

"Nice try, but the bible speaks about evenings and mornings as a result of inventing light.
Which is however impossible without a rotating planet and a sun. As they are caused by the rise and setting of the sun."

>Understand this:

Humans of our kind were created about 6,000 years ago and the Genesis account beginning in Genesis 1:2 records a reconditioning of the earth from prior judgment

The sun, moon, and all of the universe including the earth were created in "the beginning" long before .... and they were all present together during the reconditioning process on the earth, but could not be seen from the earth because of the prevaling thick water vapors [the waters above]

The Lord separated the waters above [which were so dense that nothing was visible from the earth] from the waters below [the great deep which covered the entire planet] creating the atmosphere [the firmament], this action allowed for the sun, moon, and stars to be visible from the earth .... these things were already in place and He made them to appear by discipating the water canopy above

The idea that the sun and moon were created after the earth is absurd .... the Genesis account beginning in Genesis 1:2 is one of a reconditioning act of the earth's environment for the purpose of supporting new life forms including humans of our kind made in the image of God [Genesis 1:26]

If one compares the earth today to the other planets of the earth's solar system it is obvious that none of them were reconditioned 6000 years ago .... and they still remain in the same desolated form caused by the Lord's judgment against satan's epic rebellion in the far distant past before Genesis 1:2 [Job 38:6-7; 38:4-7; Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:12-18]

[HindSight]

I have a creation question.
Who created God?

According to pre-god myth, Chaos did. There was existence but no order to it. From this, the consciousness of God came into being. He pulled himself [Order] from chaos and placed himself above it. He then looked out over the great expanse and saw nothing and no other conscious thing.

Thus the Bible says, there was Chaos. And God separated the waters from the waters and put a firmament between the two - aka created an order to the chaos. He did NOT create chaos, merely separated what already existed.

What was this god's name? He didn't have one. Because there was nothing and nobody else to give him a name. Read the book of Enoch. The Spirit of the guy named Jesus outright says that God has no name because there was no one else to call him, thus there was no reason to have a name.

Only when there was Order, could more things come into existence and stay in existence. Thus the Bible says, God ordered everything and 'fixed' it [made it permanent] 'in the heavens'.

This is the point:

Religions argue that 'God' created the universe. AKA created the spiritual and physical universes. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that God created Chaos. In fact, it implies Chaos created God. In other mythologies, statements are outright made that 'god arose from Chaos', Chaos created a god who then ordered Chaos [aka conquered his father and became the new god] ... father has son, son kills father, son become new god, has own son who then kills him and becomes the new god, on and on ...

I never dispute if 'GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE' because maybe there really was some form of consciousness did that contemplate order from disorder. Equally, I have never heard ANY religion claim a god created chaos itself; only that a god/consciousness separated from it (or separated it) parts of what already existed and put them in an order of finer to denser matter.

If this is true, then 'god' might not be anything more than 'gravity' or order itself as Cart said.

I personally believe Cart is correct - as far as Man can imagine anything being a God [that Order is a correct name for God (or an extention of Himself] The very first sentences of the Bible tell this story and yet are ignored. I think these first sentences are absolutely vital in understanding where God himself came from and what he became in order to go on and create the rest of existence. It's just so easy to pick and chose which parts of the Bible to believe. How sad that the very first sentences describe how the God of this world came into being and people don't want to listen because they want their god to be more than he is.

'Where did Chaos came from' seems to be a question that not even this creating god can answer. There has never been an attempt to explain where Chaos came from. It is only said that it existed and from it, everything else (including god) was made.

Something to ponder ...

Out of Chaos, Order ...
Where did God come from? The Bible says from Chaos. Check out the opening chapters of the Book.

[HindSight]

CHAOS EXISTED: THIS IS THE STORY OF GENESIS STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE, WORD FOR WORD IN WHITE:
2 Now the earth was [a (http://forums.armageddononline.org/#fen-NIV-2a)] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

GOD CAME INTO BEING/ THE CREATION OF CONDENSED HEAVEN/ CREATION OF ORDER/ BEGINNING STAGES OF COMPLEX MOLECULES
3 And God said, "Let there be light," [LET THERE BE ORDER] and there was light [TWO MOLECULES COLLIDED FOR THE FIRST TIME]. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," [COMBINED MOLECULES] and the darkness he called "night." [INDIVIDUAL MOLECULES] And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

GOD SEPARATED HIMSELF/ORDER OUT OF CHAOS
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." [SINGLE MOLECULES ARE SEPARTED FROM HEAVIER COMPLEX MOLECULES] And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. (anybody notice there is no universe yet, just the separation of heavier from lighter??? This is pure Science! Awesome Dude so far!)

THE DENSER MATTER WAS GATHERED INTO ONE PLACE THUS THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky [HEAVIER MOLECULES] be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," [PHYSICAL UNIVERSE!] and the gathered waters he called "seas." [GRAVITY? FORCES THAT CREATED THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE? yeah, me thinks so] And God saw that it was good.

BEGINNING STAGES OF DNA / MOLECULES FORMED
11 Then God said, "Let the land [PHYSCIAL UNIVERSE] produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. (note: The Bible always uses 'trees' and 'fruit of a tree' as metephors for cause/effect. Ex: a tree is known by its fruit. The universe is known by what it produces? Yeah, me thinks so! So what did it produce?) YOU KNOW THE ANSWER BUT HE TOLD YOU ANYWAY ...

SUNS/MOONS/PLANETS FORMED
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky (REMEMBER: sky was defined as space separating single molecules from heavier, see above) to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, [CREATION OF CONSTELLATIONS] 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night [PLASMAS AND BLACK HOLES]. He also made the stars. [SUNS] 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky [SPACE] to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness [ORDER WAS CREATED, PHYSICS LAWS GOVERNING THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE]. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


SO FAR, ALL THIS HAS BEEN THE CREATION OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE ITSELF. 'HEAVEN' IF YOU WILL. PEOPLE ASK 'WHY ARE THERE TWO CREATIONS STORIES?' THERE'S NOT! THIS FIRST DESCRIBES THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE HEAVEN SPACE TIME LAWS OF MAINTAINING EXISTENCE FIRST. NOW WE GET INTO NITTY GRITTY DETAILS! PHYSICAL LIFE FORMED!!!!!!

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, (everything was dead until now, zero life forms) and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water [space] in the seas [clusters], and let the birds increase on the earth [planets]." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

THEN COMPLEX LIFE FORMED
24 And God said, "Let the land [planets] produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

AND FINALLY THE MOST COMPLEX OF DNA MOLECULES IN SPACE/TIME/ORDER ... THEN HUMANS WERE FORMED

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b (http://forums.armageddononline.org/#fen-NIV-26b)] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This is an awesome story! I don't care if you look at from the science point of view or religious view. Whoever wrote this story was a very intelligent being. Kudoos to him. Logic, precise, order, makes sense ... awesome story! I think this is the coolest story in the entire book! JMO

in no way does The Bible contradict science nor science contradict the Bible.

PS My own little pet peeve. For everyone who says the universe was created 'out of nothing', sciences calls you 'shit for brains' and the legend your own god calls you shit for brains. So now what is your excuse to continue in that line of thinking? Don't just read the Bible, UNDERSTAND it. It is one of the earliest books of science or history or myth or tell-all books ever written. It actually is a cool book regardless if a person is relgious or not. JMO

[ENDTIMES]

TRUTH FILES

I find your posts very interresting! Please keep on posting.
What is your view on Planet x/ Nibiru ?

[Truth Files]

ENDTIMES,

Ii think that the idea of planet X is an extra-biblical imagination and fabricated story .... I stick to the scriptures alone for reliable information

If one does this they will stay on track and much understanding will be revealed to them .... exactly what the Lord has intended to convey .... no more .... no less

[custompainter]

According to pre-god myth, Chaos did. There was existence but no order to it. From this, the consciousness of God came into being. He pulled himself [Order] from chaos and placed himself above it. He then looked out over the great expanse and saw nothing and no other conscious thing.

Thus the Bible says, there was Chaos. And God separated the waters from the waters and put a firmament between the two - aka created an order to the chaos. He did NOT create chaos, merely separated what already existed.

What was this god's name? He didn't have one. Because there was nothing and nobody else to give him a name. Read the book of Enoch. The Spirit of the guy named Jesus outright says that God has no name because there was no one else to call him, thus there was no reason to have a name.

Only when there was Order, could more things come into existence and stay in existence. Thus the Bible says, God ordered everything and 'fixed' it [made it permanent] 'in the heavens'.

This is the point:

Religions argue that 'God' created the universe. AKA created the spiritual and physical universes. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that God created Chaos. In fact, it implies Chaos created God. In other mythologies, statements are outright made that 'god arose from Chaos', Chaos created a god who then ordered Chaos [aka conquered his father and became the new god] ... father has son, son kills father, son become new god, has own son who then kills him and becomes the new god, on and on ...

I never dispute if 'GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE' because maybe there really was some form of consciousness did that contemplate order from disorder. Equally, I have never heard ANY religion claim a god created chaos itself; only that a god/consciousness separated from it (or separated it) parts of what already existed and put them in an order of finer to denser matter.

If this is true, then 'god' might not be anything more than 'gravity' or order itself as Cart said.

I personally believe Cart is correct - as far as Man can imagine anything being a God [that Order is a correct name for God (or an extention of Himself] The very first sentences of the Bible tell this story and yet are ignored. I think these first sentences are absolutely vital in understanding where God himself came from and what he became in order to go on and create the rest of existence. It's just so easy to pick and chose which parts of the Bible to believe. How sad that the very first sentences describe how the God of this world came into being and people don't want to listen because they want their god to be more than he is.

'Where did Chaos came from' seems to be a question that not even this creating god can answer. There has never been an attempt to explain where Chaos came from. It is only said that it existed and from it, everything else (including god) was made.

Something to ponder ...

Out of Chaos, Order ...
Where did God come from? The Bible says from Chaos. Check out the opening chapters of the Book.





Thanks Hindsight, Probably the best explanation yet. I'm still not 100% convinced but your explanation makes more sense than quoting a bunch of verses and saying "there". Btw...I've read parts of the bible when I was younger and found it quite boring.:ohmy: These days there is simply not enough time,much less interest.:deal:

[Cartesiantheater]

For those who are trying to not interpret Genesis as a literal 6 day creation, this might help:



Creation according to science (in six arbitrarily chosen "days" before modern time):

(1) Great heat and energy as space rapidly expands

(2) Elementary particles, strong nuclear force becomes distinct ("separated" from the others)

(3) Electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces become distinct ("separate" from each other), lots of antimatter, lots of matter/antimatter collisions

(4) Most antimatter eliminated, protons, neutrons, electrons, the first elements: 75% hydrogen. 35% helium, but it all exists as plasma

(5) Stars begin to form, atoms begin to form as we know them (inside stars), microwave background from photons, first galaxies start to form

(6) First stars die, new stars form, heavy elements form, solar systems, planets, etc

(7) Modern times.


This is not a linear scale, it's exponential. The further from (1) the longer the steps took.

[GamerGal]

http://www.csicop.org/uploads/images/si/BAUSLAUGH.jpg

[Ningishiddza]

judgment against satan's epic rebellion in the far distant past before Genesis 1:2 [Job 38:6-7; 38:4-7; Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:12-18]

The Hebrews didn't write Job or the creation story in Genesis. They plagiarized it from the Shumerians. You can read the original Job story circa 4,000 BCE, as translated by S. N. Kramer,


jIi think that the idea of planet X is an extra-biblical imagination and fabricated story.

The phrase "lord of hosts" is a Shumerian/Akkadian loanword. It refers to the planet Nibiru.

The phrase "day of the lord" is also a Shumerian/Akkadian loanword. It refers to any point in time when Nibiru crosses the Asteroid Belt.

[equestrian]

Ningishiddza
The Hebrews didn't write Job or the creation story in Genesis. They plagiarized it from the Shumerians. You can read the original Job story circa 4,000 BCE, as translated by S. N. Kramer

eq) the Sumerian creation story is from Gilgamish and was translated by George Smith

In the Gilgamish epic the Ark was actually launched. There is just the hint that it might have been round

eq
/

[johnBeeone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pbTfO8S53M <---- I've got a link here a discussion Q&A @ Revelation TV about Creation

[Freddy]

Ningishiddza

eq) the Sumerian creation story is from Gilgamish and was translated by George Smith

In the Gilgamish epic the Ark was actually launched. There is just the hint that it might have been round

eq
/
Is the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh about creation, the flood, or both?

[jeffweeder]

Is the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh about creation, the flood, or both?

Both, not mention accounts of the fall of man. Just about every culture have stories to tell about these events , maybe because they actually took place. ::):

[Cartesiantheater]

Both, not mention accounts of the fall of man. Just about every culture have stories to tell about these events , maybe because they actually took place. ::):

Or maybe because floods have happened throughout history, and early religions often attributed natural disasters to the punishment of gods.

Or maybe even a couple of these myths are tied to a particular historical event.


But there is a problem with your global flood belief: it is physically impossible. On several grounds.

Now, a very large LOCALIZED flood is quite possible, but believing in a global one is quite a pathetic for an adult, as at best it is the equivalent of a child's bedtime story (think Rudolph and his shiny nose, flying through the sky dragging Santa's fat ass to all the chimneys of the world).

What's most sad about it is that it only takes a few minutes of careful thought to realize how ridiculous a literal interpretation of the Flood story really is. Then if you go in to the physics of it, in many of the proposed scenarios you're looking at Noah and his family being roasted alive... not to mention, MANY PLANTS WOULDN'T HAVE SURVIVED, INCLUDING THEIR SEEDS.

It's just a ridiculous story, and it's beyond ridiculous that so many people buy it (in light of today's knowledge of the world, that is- ancient peoples get a pass since they still thought gods carried the sun across the sky and such).

You really have to turn a blind eye to a GREAT deal of obvious logic and facts to accept such an absurd story as fact.

[Wayfarer]

Fundy Bible literalists may take every word in it literally, but most Christians today are far more enlightened and context-minded in their outlook.
For example the verse "With God a thousand years are as one day" (2 Pet 3:8) blows the literal day-by-day creation schedule out of the water and indicates time is not rigidly fixed but is a stretchy, elastic thing as science has since proven.
The Bible is a fascinating mix of fact, metaphor, parable and analogy so we shouldn't try to interpret it literally like fundies do..:)

In fact we can throw in some modern thinking to create interesting speculation scenarios,
For example the Noah's Ark story may be an analogy where the Ark represents (in modern terms) a DNA warehouse (craft?) where billions of tiny cell samples (not full-blown animals) could be kept safe from some outside danger (represented by the 'flood')
Hey we could even speculate that the Earth itself is the Ark, sailing the ocean of space with its precious cargo, something like in the film 'Silent Running' where an assortment of animal and plant species are housed aboard a spacecraft -

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Silent_running-1.gif

WIKI SILENT RUNNING- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running

[The Word]

The first thing we need to understand is that God is nothing but thoughts. These thoughts are his plan for a creation to experience them in a physical world. This required created images and physical bodies for each image.


In order to create these images, his first creation had to be light energy and we know this as the spoken Word of God. This is the power he needed to take his thoughts and transform them into individual images with all the planned details they need for eternal life. This includes inanimate objects and living beings.


Think of God's thoughts as puzzle pieces that when put together, produces a whole picture of many dimensions. This is the way God had to make plans for us to interact with each other but remain individuals while experiencing life in our bodies. This is why God knows all things.


He even planned where each individual atom will be at a certain moment so he didn't miss anything. Everything had to fit within his thoughts so it can work together in the physical world. A train wreck that kills many people had to be in his thoughts because many more people are affected by this wreck. Nothing can be random in his plans or it won't work. You can't take a puzzle piece from another puzzle and make it work. It has to be the right piece to make the whole picture.


As you can see in this world, God likes variety so he created his images in many different ways for us to enjoy life and since his thoughts are also who we are, God gets to experience life through all of us.


Once he created the light energy, then he could create his images. For an analogy to explain these images, we can use a hard drive of a computer that has all the information in it to build our bodies and make them a living being. It contains everything about us that we need to live for eternity. This information is in God's thoughts so it's invisible but with the light energy, these thoughts will come alive in a body, via the brain as our processor.


Light and energy are needed to form atoms and make mass. These atoms were made into many different elements that can be linked together to form molecules. These molecules are the building blocks of all the various physical materials we see and where our bodies come from. None of these bodies can live without our created thoughts so each image contains the information to build our bodies and give it life according the time allotted us for this age and the next.


After God completed his creation, each image would have to wait until the planned time to have a body. The heavenly worlds of stars, planets, moons, etc., would have to be formed first in a certain way to go along with all the forces that it takes to keep them all working together in harmony. For all this to happen by random chance, would be like putting every living person on the moon without any air support and telling them to find their way back to earth. In other words, there are no possibilities outside God's thoughts.


With this understanding of who we are, then everything we see happen today was planned exactly to God's specifications a long time ago. If a miracle happens, it was planned to happen at that moment. If a fetus was aborted, it was all in that created image of that fetus. There's nothing we can do to change God's plan or our plans because whatever we do, it was already in our image of thoughts.


This is why miracles happen with or without religious people praying. If you're a religious person who prayed and all of a sudden a miracle healing happened, this will make the religious person think he knows God. On the other hand, a miracle happens while doctors are working with patients and they suspect it's because of their good work. An atheist will chalk it up to life chances. But the truth is they were planned by God and used for many different reasons. No man can claim responsibility for a healing, miracle or anything about God.


The reason for all this confusion during this age are the genetic sins of our bodies. These sins interfere with our thoughts and keeps the flesh from understanding who we are. This makes it almost impossible to believe we are God's thoughts and separated from the physical bodies we experience life with. This causes us to selfishly think our brains produce thoughts and that God exists somewhere in the sky sitting idly by, waiting to be worshipped. So these sins cause the flesh to worship itself rather than think with the true thoughts of God, which is worshipping him.


The overall plan for us is paradise. God has given me many visions and lots of understanding about our new home after this one is destroyed. There were several bodies throughout this age who were created in one image together but this image is all the thoughts of God. They were called the Word, which is the light energy that was used to create everything. This is the power of God and these bodies were used to speak the Word to help find these bodies and have them speak prophesies. The Word needs to be spoken to make things happen so God had me speak the Word to end this age.


Everyone else is confused with their genetic sins so they can't understand what I'm writing or speaking about. This was all in God's plan to make everyone liars so we saints and prophets could hear the spoken Word of truth within our thoughts or the thoughts of a saint preaching the gospel. However we were found was planned by God a long time before creation. He planned for everyone else to stay confused until the end of this age. That's when the earth's crust will be melted by hot molten lava and everything will be destroyed. This will end the era that God needed to judge us all. Even though he planned it all out in his thoughts, these thoughts have to be played out because it's an important part of the whole picture.


When this destruction is happening for the earth to change into paradise, we remain in our images of thoughts until the new earth is ready for us to live on. Then, according to God's plans, we will end up in new immortal bodies to experience the rest of eternity with. We won't have memories of the former life so it will be like starting over.

[Freddy]

Why take the time to read this drivel when you can watch it here? Go Brad enlighten us to the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/user/56IAM#p/u/24/zK4DOEOgYok

[The Word]

Why take the time to read this drivel when you can watch it here? Go Brad enlighten us to the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/user/56IAM#p/u/24/zK4DOEOgYok


Here's the rest of my videos.

http://forums.armageddononline.org/words-book-p386114.html#post386114

[Cartesiantheater]

Fundy Bible literalists may take every word in it literally, but most Christians today are far more enlightened and context-minded in their outlook.
For example the verse "With God a thousand years are as one day" (2 Pet 3:8) blows the literal day-by-day creation schedule out of the water and indicates time is not rigidly fixed but is a stretchy, elastic thing as science has since proven.
The Bible is a fascinating mix of fact, metaphor, parable and analogy so we shouldn't try to interpret it literally like fundies do..:)

In fact we can throw in some modern thinking to create interesting speculation scenarios,
For example the Noah's Ark story may be an analogy where the Ark represents (in modern terms) a DNA warehouse (craft?) where billions of tiny cell samples (not full-blown animals) could be kept safe from some outside danger (represented by the 'flood')
Hey we could even speculate that the Earth itself is the Ark, sailing the ocean of space with its precious cargo, something like in the film 'Silent Running' where an assortment of animal and plant species are housed aboard a spacecraft -

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Silent_running-1.gif

WIKI SILENT RUNNING- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running

I've always been partial to that interpretation. It's much more interesting, in addition to far less ridiculous (even if it is still highly unlikely, at least we don't know that it isn't physically impossible).

[Freddy]

Here's the rest of my videos.

http://forums.armageddononline.org/words-book-p386114.html#post386114
I will be sure to check them out. "Not likely, Pilgrim."

[The Word]

I will be sure to check them out. "Not likely, Pilgrim."

Most sinners would rather listen to lying false prophets who make them feel good.

[Cartesiantheater]

Most sinners would rather listen to lying false prophets who make them feel good.

I'm a sinner, but that's not what I prefer. I prefer to listen to people who present FACTUAL, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE to their claims, rather than appeals to faith or logical fallacies.

This naturally makes it very difficult for someone to convince of something that pertains to religion UNLESS I am assuming that the idea only necessarily exists within the confines of the hypotheses of the religion itself, and that it may or may not have anything to do with THIS universe.

[Waymarker]

..I prefer to listen to people who present FACTUAL, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE to their claims..

Impossible mate. We might all be be inside some giant holodeck for all we know, or a collective dream/illusion.
Tell us Morpheus-
"The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

What do you say Jesus?-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?...you are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" John 3:12,John 8:23

"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream" -Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on" -The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields...nothing is real" - The Beatles
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (James 4:14)

[Cartesiantheater]

Impossible mate. We might all be be inside some giant holodeck for all we know, or a collective dream/illusion.

Tell us Morpheus-
"The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"


And yet:


I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules.

Within the scope of your proposed delusion, there are still certain PATTERNS and RULES which can be deciphered.






What do you say Jesus?-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?...you are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" John 3:12,John 8:23

Imagine if Jesus tried to tell them about relativity. I wonder how that would go... and yet, there are no problems with it now, for those who are willing to learn.



[...]
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein

Bad context. He was just stating that the way we perceive the universe is faulty.



"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (James 4:14)[/I]

So what? A mist can make up a bunch of bullshit or it can substantiate its claims. (an anthropomorphic mist, that is...)

[The Word]

I'm a sinner, but that's not what I prefer. I prefer to listen to people who present FACTUAL, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE to their claims, rather than appeals to faith or logical fallacies.

This naturally makes it very difficult for someone to convince of something that pertains to religion UNLESS I am assuming that the idea only necessarily exists within the confines of the hypotheses of the religion itself, and that it may or may not have anything to do with THIS universe.


You don't have to worry about being religious. You were made to be skeptical of it. I was made to be a sinless saint and preach the gospel but that came after I was made to be an alcoholic and a proud father who worked hard.

No one ever knows for sure what they might be in the future. But I know one thing. Everyone will be in the same place eventually.

[Freddy]

Praise the Word is gone!

[johnBeeone]

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@ Revelation TV

www.livestream.com/elisoriano[/url] 24/7 Listen and Ask Any Question under the Sun....

[Confuzion]

Most of the bible is just one big collection of metaphors. Most Christians fail to see this, and as a result interpret the bible incorrectly. This results in very, very sad situations. Interpreting the bible incorrectly leads to disaster.

In the first part of genesis (creation of the world, animals and man) days might be interpreted as ages (gosh, this fits with evolution).
Adam and Eve might just be the first iteration of humans. They might very well have lived for just 20 years and then died. Person A lived X years, might very well mean Human Species A lasted X generations.

Also the very interesting "I am the way" (quote from Jesus Christ) is commonly misinterpreted as meaning "believe in me and only then you will go to heaven" instead of what it actually means: "behave like me and life will be good." You know, tolerant, forgiving, loving, sharing, wise and helping (did I miss anything?).

Be very careful when reading the bible; it's a minefield. If it is your central reference point of everything, you will fail miserably at understanding what is inside it... and worse, what is around you.

The bible is not god's word, love is; and through love (yes, your emotion love) god will tell you whether you are doing right or wrong. The same goes for everybody else.

[MHz]

(did I miss anything?).

Resurrection from physical death.

[Waymarker]

Most of the bible is just one big collection of metaphors. Most Christians fail to see this..

Modern day true Christians know a lot of the Bible is metaphor, and on the other hand they know a lot is plain speaking which needs no high-fallutin 'interpretation' to understand, such as this-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"-Jesus of Nazareth (Matt 25: 37-40)

Imagine contacting a remote jungle tribe who'd never seen a white man before, you stay with them and learn their language, then when they ask you to teach them stuff, you say- "You're on a huge ball of mud spinning through space".
Natch, they wouldn't believe you and would probably think you're touched in the head and they'd eat you.
Likewise Jesus said some pretty weird things which peoples minds couldn't take in, so he ended up being killed too..

[MHz]

A real life example of that happened, the People who were the first to meet Cortez did just that, he killed many, put the rest in chains and made them do the heavy work in cleaning out the silver mines and then he killed them. If facts make any difference.

Jesus was destined to go to the grave as part of the sequence that had to be followed that was God's plan for salvation for mankind. The weird teaching method was also in prophecy, odd that it was misunderstood as today we use parables because they are easier to understand than the 'hard facts'.

[The Word]

Praise the Word is gone!

The religious Jews said that about Jesus, too.

[The Word]

A real life example of that happened, the People who were the first to meet Cortez did just that, he killed many, put the rest in chains and made them do the heavy work in cleaning out the silver mines and then he killed them. If facts make any difference.

Jesus was destined to go to the grave as part of the sequence that had to be followed that was God's plan for salvation for mankind. The weird teaching method was also in prophecy, odd that it was misunderstood as today we use parables because they are easier to understand than the 'hard facts'.

We're all destined to die as a sinner, a sinful prophet, sinless saint, or messiah.