US Soldiers Laugh While Iraqi Teen Drowns

[Defiant Noquisi]

This is exactly the kind of b.s. we dont need...

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_laugh_070704,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Great, maybe the charges will bring about more level headed thinking.

[dutchie]

I am speechless.

[Strife]

I knew something wasnt right with 'our' soldiers, I guess some really are that way. I also guess that chugging both my middle fingers at those two soldiers I seen during Fahrenheit 911 was worth it....no. This is B.S., shame on those guys.

[Defiant Noquisi]

It was a very cold hearted act but I dont believe every soldier feels the same way.

[Marajadex]

This is horrible. I guess it just goes to show you that just because they are given a gun and position of power that they don't have the wisdom to use it. I hope these guys are prosecuted and realize the horrible thing they have done. Not to mention having to live with the knowledge that they murdered someone just for fun.

[Conservative Front]

This represents such a minoote group of are military don't get me wrong on this at all I think thats horrid and just plain wrong and should be court marshalled for it. however I hope this doesn't create a bad name for all the Good soldiers that perform there jobs with dignity and respect.

[Defiant Noquisi]

I agree CF and posted as such in #4. Still, it doesnt help matters any and the sharks are always circling.

[dutchie]

HOW MANY TIMES MORE do we have to say, yeah, yeah it's terrible, and justice should have its way, and not all of the military is like that and blah blah blah....????

Incidents like these SHOULD NOT HAPPEN AT ALL!!!!! NEVER ONCE!!! Jesus Christ, could you imagine kids being pushed into a river and being drowned by a few Iraqis just for fun in YOUR hometown?!? It's fuqin RIDICULOUS!!!

And you expect the Iraqi people to turn a blind eye to incidents like these AGAIN??? How much more abuse do you think these guys can take?!?

Furthermore: I might be wrong, but personally I think we do not hear of every incident taking place there. This happens TOO often for comfort!!!

[Defiant Noquisi]

Crap like that still happens here Dutchie and I doubt it will end. Hence the sharks always circling.

[stewey]

There are bad apples in every bunch dutchie. With 140000 troops over there, there will be a few bad ones. 140000 troops. 10 bad people. that is 1:14000 ratio. Not too bad actually... I am not saying it is right, but it happens in every war. World War 2, which I am sure you are not against the USA entering (you'd be a German citizen if we hadn't), also had these crimes committed.


Furthermore: I might be wrong, but personally I think we do not hear of every incident taking place there. This happens TOO often for comfort!!!

Ya, then again it doesn't always get reported in every country. I am willing to bet your country has crime that goes unreported, too. I know USA sure does. World War Two, as cited above, also had crimes go unreported and crimes go reported.

No matter what precautions you take, there WILL be incidents like this. If you can think of a way to prevent them 100%, I am sure that many many countries would love to hear them.

[dutchie]

Didn't you read the FIRST sentence of my post?!? I refuse to be lulled into silence once more. And don't give me that BS about the Americans liberating us in WWII (it were Canadians for the most part actually). That has NOTHING to do with this here.

My point: do you still expect the Iraqi people to keep quiet and turn a blind eye to these things?? If this had happened in the US it would have been frontpage news, in stead of a little piece of text on an obscure military site.

[Defiant Noquisi]

If this had happened in the US it would have been frontpage news, in stead of a little piece of text on an obscure military site. I dont have a clue as to why the national news organizations didnt pick up on that Dutchie, they had just as much chance as military.com did. It was put out by the Associated Press so all the news organizations having access to the AP wire (including many other countries) had equal opportunity to do so.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040703/1030220.asp
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0214-04.htm
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=491210

Whats surprising is that military.com put it out at all since the other major news organizations did not. They are a portal of information for anyone seeking info from veterans benefits to recruiting purposes. Its not as obscure as it might have appeared to you, its a very major and credible website. Much of the military news I get, I receive from them first.

Ill agree on it making the front page if it had happened here, it would have. I cant understand what kind of concience can go into laughing while watching someone die. Especially since it appears the only thing wrong the young men did was being out after curfew. Just another example of BS the Iraqi people can hate us for.

[DarkAce]

The problem is the majority of people we're sending there aren't going there to play hero.

[Marajadex]

Ill agree on it making the front page if it had happened here, it would have. I cant understand what kind of concience can go into laughing while watching someone die. Especially since it appears the only thing wrong the young men did was being out after curfew. Just another example of BS the Iraqi people can hate us for.It is a sad turn of events when the "Protectors & liberators", as the media call them, resort to actions like these. Unfortunatly we have seen actions like this from barbaric individuals through out history. The black man who was dragged behind a pickup truck until he was dead, the young gay man who was beaten and tied to a fence in the middle of a field an left to die. Those are just a few that come to mind. The human being can be the worst predator on the face of the earth. :dead: It is painful to hear each time it happens.

Is it posible that the main stream media did not publish yet another storie of un-provoked violence because of it being an election year? :confused:

[Conservative Front]

It's truly a terrible thing but it's always going to happen. Just like Murders and rapist are always going to walk the streets you can't prevent everything from happening. You're military would have the same bad apples dutchie. its a terrible thing and 99% of our soldiers would denouce it and you can't judge the action of are entire military based off of a extremely small handful of soldiers because Like I said, Theres still always going to be Murders Rapist,etc... you can't prevent terrible events from happening.

---end response to dutchie---

[stewey]

Didn't you read the FIRST sentence of my post?!? I refuse to be lulled into silence once more. And don't give me that BS about the Americans liberating us in WWII (it were Canadians for the most part actually). That has NOTHING to do with this here.

Didn't you read the FIRST sentence of my post?!? I refuse to be lulled into silence once more. And don't give me that BS about the Americans liberating us in WWII (it were Canadians for the most part actually). That has NOTHING to do with this here.

I used World War II as a comparison as it is a war you "agree" with that had crimes committed in, as I guess you are/were against the recent Iraq war. Well Canada also committed crimes like that in World War II. Every war in history has had crimes similar to that committed. It doesn't mean the entire army is bad. There are bad apples in every bunch, and unless you are going to monitor everyone 24/7 (think 1984), there is not much you can do to stop it. And yes, I did read the first sentence of your post and saw nothing about you being lulled into silenced. What I am trying to say is don't badmouth the entire army or country because of a minority few jackasses in the military (1/14000 actually, or 7/10000 of 1%)

[dutchie]

I used World War II as a comparison as it is a war you "agree" with that had crimes committed in, as I guess you are/were against the recent Iraq war. Well Canada also committed crimes like that in World War II. Every war in history has had crimes similar to that committed. It doesn't mean the entire army is bad. There are bad apples in every bunch, and unless you are going to monitor everyone 24/7 (think 1984), there is not much you can do to stop it. And yes, I did read the first sentence of your post and saw nothing about you being lulled into silenced. What I am trying to say is don't badmouth the entire army or country because of a minority few jackasses in the military (1/14000 actually, or 7/10000 of 1%)
I never "badmouthed" the entire army or people, where did you read anything of the sort?!? I just said that incidents like these SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED AT ALL!
And yes, I did read the first sentence of your post and saw nothing about you being lulled into silenced
HOW MANY TIMES MORE do we have to say, yeah, yeah it's terrible, and justice should have its way, and not all of the military is like that and blah blah blah....????After writing that sentence, everybody posting here did EXACTLY that: trying to lull another incident into silence... Funny that you can not see this happening.

[stewey]

HOW MANY TIMES MORE do we have to say, yeah, yeah it's terrible, and justice should have its way, and not all of the military is like that and blah blah blah....????

Incidents like these SHOULD NOT HAPPEN AT ALL!!!!! NEVER ONCE!!! Jesus Christ, could you imagine kids being pushed into a river and being drowned by a few Iraqis just for fun in YOUR hometown?!? It's fuqin RIDICULOUS!!!

And you expect the Iraqi people to turn a blind eye to incidents like these AGAIN??? How much more abuse do you think these guys can take?!?

Furthermore: I might be wrong, but personally I think we do not hear of every incident taking place there. This happens TOO often for comfort!!!

I took this as you blaming the entire military with the first paragraph, and if I took it wrong I apologize. However, there is not much more you can do other than "lull it into silence" unless you are personally going to go there and make sure it doesn't happen. I think we all agree it is horrible, but there is not much we can do to prevent it or undo it.

[MacRasta]

butt a MASS of people can "lul it into a deafning loudness", don't ferget...

Mac

[VegasRonin]

We need to bring the soldiers home. The military shouldn't be used as they currently are. The environment is too stressful for the average person. Being among people and you can't discern friend from foe. Pretty soon everyone who isn't a soldier is viewed as a threat. This isn't an excuse for their behavior but I can't imagine being in that environment. I remember in Kuwait is was clear cut for us. The Iraqis were the enemy and the Kuwaitis were our friends. I remember letting Kuwaiti children play in and around my Humvee. The thought of being shot or blown up by these kids never entered my mind. When we went into Iraq, the mood was totally different for my Team. No kids were allowed to come within 20 ft. of us. Every civilian vehicle within 100 yds was fired at in a warning fashion. I can only imagine living day to day in an environment were the enemy can be anyone. What do you think your mind does to protect itself? I don't know the answer to that question, and really don't think anyone here does either. Its a really jacked situation! :nono:

[Kohler]

Don't be so quick to believe this. The media lies. It's as simple as that. Maybe this did happen, maybe it didnt, or maybe the papers are makign the situation seem worse then it actually is; but to actually believe this 100% is just stupid.

Its all speculation

[Sirius]

I do remember hearing this story on CNN when it happened, and they said an investigation was going to happen, but haven't heard anything since.


For my own personal opinion, we knew that things like this would happen, because, in war, they always do. You cannot train a person to kill another human being, (and yes they are human beings) and not have an ill effect on them.

I have been hearing about soldiers who come home from this war, and wars from the past, and killing their wives, or getting into heavy drugs to mask the pain of what they went through.

I do believe everyone is responsible for their own actions, but the military trained to be what they have to be to get the ugly job done.

Who is responsible here, the soldiers, because they are responsible for their actions, and the military, because they made them.

Yes, I believe they should go to prison, not for the rest of their lives, but to a mental institution, to be, for a lack of a better word,"deprogrammed".

I know this not the case for all soldiers, but they all need counseling in one way or another, before, during, and after all conflicts.

And we as Americans, should not be so ready to judge our soldiers, they are making a great sacrifice, not only to themselves, but to their families, and friends, and we should honor them with by try to make the rest of their lives as normal, and peaceful as possible.

The only glory that comes in war, is when it's over.

[stewey]

Excellent post Sirius.

[dutchie]

So what you're saying is: "idiots like this are being created by the Army, they are trained to be and act this way, and upon coming back from this war, they should get a psychological arm around the shoulders?"

Can you explain this to the loved ones of the teen that drowned?

My point: in this thread all attention went to the army and the military. No-one was really much concerned about the family of the teen that was drowned. Is this the general feeling about Iraqis, and is anyone then surprised about the Iraqis getting FED UP and really really PISSED OFF with/by our presence?

[Sirius]

I'm really interested in what you would say to the loved ones dutchie. I for one can't think of anything that will help them through this tragedy.

I really do think it's nearly impossible to stop things like this from happening in wars.

[dutchie]

how bout "Sorry, in the process of removing your former leader we saw no other alternative than to import a few wackos along with the rest of our great army, consisting for the better part of great, outstanding personnel, but, hey, shit happens in any war - now this one, we know, was not asked for by you, nor did you ask us to drown your kid / brother / friend, but yeah, as we said, shit happens, and when we're done here we promise to take good mental care of the perps that did it, as they were only byproducts of the war machine, and couldn't help themselves.
Now: back to work! Oh, there is no work? Well, that's a shame... have a nice day, anyway!"

But I explained my point too in that post, and you did not care to adress that... Why?

[Marajadex]

So what you're saying is: "idiots like this are being created by the Army, they are trained to be and act this way, and upon coming back from this war, they should get a psychological arm around the shoulders?"I think "Idiots" just happen. Could be because of environment while they are growing up, influence from other "Idiots" around them. Then they grow up, reach 18, 19 or 20, and join the military. That inherent "Idiot" in them now gets to offically carry a gun and the power to boss people around.

On the other hand, the normal person going in to the military gets schooled and trained how to kill, maim and destroy. After experiencing the horrors of war it is understandable that they carry that horror through out the rest of their lives. These are the ones who genuinely need to have that "arm around the shoulder.

Again it is just my opinion.

[stewey]

Like I said, if you know a way to get all the "bad apples" out of the armed forces, I am sure that the military would be willing to pay a crapload for your idea.

It is not like the "bad apples" have a certain shirt on that says "I am a bad apple". There are thousands in the military, there is no feasible way to weed out the bad ones.


now this one, we know, was not asked for by you
I don't know, most Iraqis are pretty happy Saddam is gone. Oh yeah, that whole scene with the Saddam statue was faked, and the celebrations when he was captured never happened!


My point: in this thread all attention went to the army and the military. No-one was really much concerned about the family of the teen that was drowned. Is this the general feeling about Iraqis, and is anyone then surprised about the Iraqis getting FED UP and really really PISSED OFF with/by our presence?

How do you know that the military acted the same way? How do you know the military did not help the family the best they could? I am sure that if any of us could say anything to the family, we would express condolenses. What makes better conversation for a message board, talking about the military or offering condolenses to an Iraqi family? There would be no real debate and this thread would be long dead if all people posted was "my condolenses to the family, who will probably never read this." I did not see you saying anything about the family, either, until the above quote, so does that mean you are as heartless as us? It is just this is a discussion board, not a "offer sympathy" board.
Let me ask you, if you were in charge, what would you do differently right now?

[stewey]

Oh, and it seems many Iraqi's are quite happy. This guy lives in Iraq, so he would know more than us about what it is like:

http://www.iraqataglance.blogspot.com/

Also, my co worker is from Iraq actually, and he was for the war.

[dutchie]

Why are you constantly diverting attention away from the point I was making? This thread is NOT about me being either for or against this war, it is NOT about the Iraqis being happy or unhappy about the removal of Saddam.

It doesn't make an interesting read to post about the apologies or care the people that were left behind are now getting (and I have my doubts that any at all are/were given), I'll grant you that, but there are really two ways to put light on the incident:

1. Talk about the soldiers that did it, and how they're but a small fraction blah blah...
2. Talk about the SENTIMENTS another INCIDENT like this will awake in the Iraqi people. Does anyone care??

Nr. 2 is not at all discussed. Most of the members of AO are really AMAZED when Iraqis show that they would want the US army to leave ASAP. I'm not.

[substand]

I am not saying it is right, but it happens in every war.

it happens in every day life, all over the world. Its a tragedy and i wish it didn't happen anywhere, much less US being the cause... but It takes people who are willing to prosecute these crimes to differ from those who allow or condone them happening.

this story wasn't "only" on some obscure military site, it was reported by the AP.



So what you're saying is: "idiots like this are being created by the Army, they are trained to be and act this way, and upon coming back from this war, they should get a psychological arm around the shoulders?"


if that were true they'd all be doing it... even the ones back here at home like vegas ronin and lazserus and others on this board (specifically there is one other I am positive about but i cannot remember your handle, so i apologize to you)...


My point: in this thread all attention went to the army and the military. No-one was really much concerned about the family of the teen that was drowned.

That may have come from a feeling of "defense" for the military who so often gets attacked on this board, and certainly in the media in general. I think the empathy for the family of the abused goes without saying. If its not assumed, and not clearly stated, it should be both assumed and clearly stated. In any case, let me offer a formal apology (if its not clear from other people's statements) from an American to Iraqis, esp. those affected by these tragedies: I'm sorry and I wish our soldiers didn't do that. They did and I hope they are prosecuted accordingly. Please know we are not all like that, nor are all our soldiers. Its ridiculous, ludicrous, and disgusting. Most everyone here, supporting our action in Iraq or not, have condemned it. I support our action there, I condemn these soldiers' actions, and it is without hesitation that I call those who committed atrocities such as this "bastards, assholes, ****ers, shitheads, etc..."

[substand]

how bout "Sorry, in the process of removing your former leader we saw no other alternative than to import a few wackos along with the rest of our great army, consisting for the better part of great, outstanding personnel, but, hey, shit happens in any war - now this one, we know, was not asked for by you, nor did you ask us to drown your kid / brother / friend, but yeah, as we said, shit happens, and when we're done here we promise to take good mental care of the perps that did it, as they were only byproducts of the war machine, and couldn't help themselves.
Now: back to work! Oh, there is no work? Well, that's a shame... have a nice day, anyway!"

well, i can't help but reading sarcasm into that =).... but i guess you would understand, even taking your words literally, if you put them in the "well, sorry, in the event of trying to ensure you are secure financially, we had to raise your taxes and make you less secure financially."

I realize its not the same thing, but it is similar in the phrase. There are going to be those who suffer for the "greater good." It sucks when people suffer. It sucks even more when people suffer at the hands of dickheads who don't represent those they claim to in the US army (or any other organization for that matter).

I'm ****ing pissed when shit like this happens. You expect some complaints of killing civilians on accident thry "collateral damage...." but when mad libs said "not in our name" to the whole Iraq war- i disagreed. No mad lib can take credit for the liberation-but I thought it was a good thing. They were against it alltogether. But when we make OVERT acts against individual people, thats a different story. I can say when those soldiers did that, it was not in my name. It was disgraceful. Disregarding the fact that it does not help us (and in fact hurts us) strategically and tactically, its disgusting that they did such things. I hate it because its evil, it hurts our good (imo) position and purpose there, and it makes me look stupid. The soldiers should be prosecuted for thier evil deeds, and I think "hurting" our position there should add more time for thier evil deeds... I could care less about it making me look bad (as i do that myself often enough).

[dutchie]

Yeah, sarcasm was intended. Liked your post. Needed that. Thanks.

[Anarch]

This is exactly the kind of b.s. we dont need...

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_laugh_070704,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Great, maybe the charges will bring about more level headed thinking.

and the pentagon is worried about embarrassing wikileaks?