Let the Israelis take care of Iran

[repentantsinner]

With all the rumors of Iran building nuclear weapons it almost automaticly becomes the responsibility of the USA to put a stop to it. I think it was 1979 when saddam hussain built a nuclear reactor and was enriching plutonium for weapons that Israel went in and bombed it out of commision. They have one of the best air forces in the world, with all the latest weapons we give them. The mossad is a premier intelligence agency and should know how far along Iran is. The Israelis would be in more danger of iranian nukes than the US. Does anybody doubt they are capable of doing the job? Why should the USA get it's hands dirty in every issue in the globe when israel is more than willing and in a better position and more threatened? Why not let Israel take care of the Iranian nukes?

[DarkAce]

It becomes the responsibility of the US because a) the UN is worthless. b) the US is a target. Considering the ever growing rise of islamic terrorism the US is even worse off.

The iranians aren't stupid. Nuking anyone would result in there immediate demise. They don't have the forces/equipement/$$$ to successfully hold off forces which would invade them.

You're not serious about Israel? Being one the most hated countries next on the list to the US, attacking an arab country would result in Israel being massacred. Islamists would be all over Israels' shit and this would trigger the world war these jihadists have been waiting for. Take into consideration also the location of Israel and the size of it. This would not be good for them at all.

The US only gets involved in world issues that are in the best interests of America. As it is with all countries.

[repentantsinner]

Iran is a country ruled by molem clerics, as a result it is in their national charter to destroy isreal. Isreal is in more danger of being nuked by Iran than the US. The major reason the US is hated by 750 million or so moslems is because of our support for Isreal. As for the arabs ganging up on Isreal, how many times have they tried already. The just seems to have to get involved in every troubled spot in the world (with good intentions) and seems to come out bloodied or having made enemies or with a bad reputation. Sadly it seems some of the world likes to bite the hand that feeds it. It may be only my opinion but I'm wondering why the US seems obligated to carry the world when we have our own internal problems and others don't seem to be grateful; ie they'd still be speaking german in france if it was'nt for tha United States of America.

[DarkAce]

Israel holds land viewed sacred by muslims. They won't nuke it merely on that fact. A lot of muslims hate the west not only because of our support of Israel, but because of our ideologies, our foreign policies, etc.
The terrorist groups carrying out the attacks are a small fraction with little arsenal compared to Israels'. An attack on Iran by Israel (especially with the rise of islamic terrorism) would just create such a backlash of people joining terrorist groups and carrying out multiple repetitive attacks against Israel. Which equals world war for the rest of us since the west would be obligated to join, then all the arab nations would unite even more so and officially declare it a holy war.

The US doesn't carry the world. Many people are grateful, but that doesn't mean you're given a "go ahead" on every wrongful action since then because of it. The US has done a lot of good, but it has also done a lot of bad, and it's the bad that people like to dwell on. Coupled with the fact many people are realizing the true intentions behind the motifs carried out by the americans, it just angers them even more so.

Btw, someone should move this to the politics forum.

[repentantsinner]

What you say makes a lot of sense Dark Ace, you like to post that this is not a "fluffy, fantasy world" we live in. I guess i really wanted to believe in the US as the good guys with the white hats.......this made me naive as to some of the realities of the world. I am sort of worried about the seeming trend of the US becomeing "alienated" from the rest of the world. Did you know OPEC now demands payment in Euroes and not US dollars. I can just see countries like China, Germany, france and maybe Russia patiently waiting for the US to overextend itself, or be apread too thin, or even just plain burn out.

[VegasRonin]

Did you know OPEC now demands payment in Euroes and not US dollars. I've heard that statement, and its rubbish. Transactions such as mass oil purchases are made electronically. A country's currency doesn't really come into play. They may use the Euro as a standard of value that another country's currency will be balanced against, according to the World Bank but the transaction isn't utilizing U.S., Yen, Euro, or Pesos. :vbroll:

[repentantsinner]

OK, lets say the dollar is not in trouble. The original purpose of this thread was to "let the israelis take care of iranian nukes" why does the usa have to go into every troubled spot in the world. My question is, just how much does the United States of America take care of it's own? Our public edcation system is a joke. Compared to other countries our public transportation system is non existant. Alot of countries have national health insurance, i don't know how many but many in the us(retired) can't afford medication while we throw billions around all over the world. There are High school students in New York city who cant find New York state on a map. They are too worried about people bringing guns to school. There are metal detectors and police patroling the hallways of our schools now. You might say "Thats just the way it is" but is it like that in other countries? My point is that the US is so busy being big brother to the world were falling apart from within.

[DarkAce]

Corruption. Blame capitalism if you want, wouldn't neccesarily be inaccurate.

[VegasRonin]

My point is that the US is so busy being big brother to the world were falling apart from within. The same thing that brought upon Rome's collapse is going to bring down ours. If a nuclear exchange doesn't do it first.

Moving to the Political forums. :grin

[Conservative Front]

Israel does have the potential to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilitys but as current events unfold it would spell out the ultimate destruction of israel. If you look at there position on the map there located in a prime place for encirclement They would be cirlced on all sides including the Ocean they'd have to put up one mean fight even with U.S. Support to save there country. But I also believe that Iran's nuclear capabilitys is more of a threat to America right now giving that Iran knows America has a smoking gun pointed at them. If Iran develop enough enriched uranium and crafted 30 or so Suit Case nukes, they could launch a preemptive nuclear strike on all our major cities and it might take us sometime to figure out where the attack came from, not to mention the casualties from it and the nuclear fall out. I believe that the U.S. should be the ones taking down Iran (maybe with Israels support but not a huge factor) If America can stop Iran from production of nuclear weapons (The U.N. isn't gonna do it) then they would be harmless and defenseless. "hopefully Iraq will set an example in the Middle East and cause a downward spiral for Dictatorships"

[Emerald_Dragon]

>of the US because a) the UN is worthless.

the U.N. is a product of U.S. politics. Its a tool used by us. If they don't agree, we go do whatever anyway. If they do agree, it was the right thing to do anyway. Its worthless because we choose to make it worthless. Or enforce it when it works in our favor.


>b) the US is a target.

yeah right. its much easier for terrorists to go buy a Russian made suitcase nuke and use it, than to have to build one from scratch from inadequate Iranian nuclear reactor excesses.

If you bothered to check, the religion of Iran, is not that of Iraq.


>attacking an arab country would result in Israel being massacred.

they do it all the time and historically. they wouldn't get massacred, they've got nukes to take out anyone that tries.


>Islamists would be all over Israels' shit and this would trigger the world war
> these jihadists have been waiting for.

they've been doing it all along. suicide bombers? they don't have what it takes to take out Israel.

the only reason Israel doesn't take them out first, is because they couldn't hold all that territory. why else would they pull back from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon? They are slowly building settlements to expand their territory base, after razing settlements in their path.


>A lot of muslims hate the west not only because of our support of Israel,
>but because of our ideologies, our foreign policies, etc.

lemmeguess, because of our freedom... you've been watching too much TV.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743/
"And the genius that lies behind it, because he's [OBL] not a man who rants against our freedoms, our liberties, our voting, our — the fact that our women go to school. He's not the Ayatollah Khomeini; he really doesn't care about all those things. To think that he's trying to rob us of our liberties and freedom is, I think, a gross mistake. What he has done, his genius, is identify particular American foreign policies that are offensive to Muslims whether they support these martial actions or not — our support for Israel, our presence on the Arabian Peninsula, our activities in Afghanistan and Iraq, our support for governments that Muslims believe oppress Muslims, be it India, China, Russia, Uzbekistan. Bin Laden has focused the Muslim world on specific, tangible, visual American policies.
"


>The US has done a lot of good, but it has also done a lot of bad,
>and it's the bad that people like to dwell on.

its the "bad" that invalidates the good. Look what happened to the UN? for all the good it does, because of the few corrupt officials at the top skimming money, the whole organization is dishonored. worthless.


>>Did you know OPEC now demands payment in Euroes and not US dollars.
>I've heard that statement, and its rubbish.

i think you're wrong here, VR. Of course its done electronically. But value does change hands and currencies are still purchased. Our US$ is only strong when other countries use it. If it doesn't, then "electronically", it will take more dollars to get the same goods.


>Israel does have the potential to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilitys
>but as current events unfold it would spell out the ultimate destruction of israel.

you're not serious? Iraq was more of a threat to Israel than Iran ever was. Now you're saying Iran could take out Israel? Israel will only lose if and when we no longer support it economically, militarily, and politically. If its attack Iran, it will be with our support, how else can their jets get there without our airborne refuelling planes, which may have already been sold to them, recently. Bought with our money. How much are we giving them each year in support?


>They would be cirlced on all sides including the Ocean they'd have to put up
>one mean fight even with U.S. Support to save there country.

is this new information? ever heard of "scorched earth"? how about M.A.D.?


> If Iran develop enough enriched uranium and crafted 30 or so Suit Case nukes,

did you know Russia was said to do the same thing? why didn't they? Do you really believe Iranians would be able to if the Russians couldn't?


>"hopefully Iraq will set an example in the Middle East
>and cause a downward spiral for Dictatorships"

given that Iran is allegedly developing nukes now, [in contrast to Iraq having nukes as previously mentioned by Rice and others in the administration], do you really believe that our occupation of Iraq has taught the ME nations that they should listen when we say, "Give us your oil"? :grin

[DarkAce]

Its worthless because we choose to make it worthless.

It's useless because of it's policies which disallow it from doing what needs to be done. Maybe you should go back and read some more about it's history, especially about events in Africa, per say.


from inadequate Iranian nuclear reactor excesses.

Whoa, ease down boy. Apparently you have high level military documents detailing that this or your pulling this straight from your ass. We've known about Iran and their capability for quite sometime. There was a great article in time in around 2000 that outlined this, graphs/maps and all too! In light of recent events and what Iran has declared it's arousing even more suspicion. It's just that Iran is getting more mainstream press now, I'm betting your one of those that think we're now accusing Iran? Heh. Take a moment away from reading your conspiracy sites and read up on history.


they do it all the time and historically. they wouldn't get massacred, they've got nukes to take out anyone that tries.

Ah here you go again not reading what's actually said. If Israel would execute military assaults against an arab country first, like what was said in the first post, there would be severe retaliation. It's not the military retaliation that's feared, but the increased terrorism it would invoke. Many more Muslims, not just the extremists and those that follow the strict Islamic denominations, will view this as a holy war even more so. These people will flock to join various organizations to strike, and if you know where Israel is on a map and it's neighbouring countries, this isn't good. Israel would have to go into complete lock down to protect itself. You can't nuke your way to solve terrorism, might help for immediate results, but will hold many reprecussions. The world wouldn't stand by while Israel nukes every muslim population. What's happening in Israel now is small fries in regards to what would be in regards of terrorism.
This isn't the 60s, things are different now.


lemmeguess, because of our freedom... you've been watching too much TV.

You're a moron. Not only because of the above comment and past posts, but because you would post something that is in regards to Osama Bin Laden and his terrorist organization and policies and their reasoning behind their actions and attributed that it's the same for every middle eastern based terrorist organization. Please tell me you even know who Ayatollah Khomeini even is, heh.


its the "bad" that invalidates the good. Look what happened to the UN? for all the good it does, because of the few corrupt officials at the top skimming money, the whole organization is dishonored. worthless.


How can the bad invalidate the good done? What's done is done. It's like saying Canada is evil bastards for going into Kosovo without UN approval. Suddenly all the good we've done doesn't count? Christians or any other religion has done a lot of good things too, they've done a lot of bad also, doesn't change the fact of the good they've done.
If you think the oil-for-food program is the only reasoning behind why the UN is worthless you're even more of a sheep than I had originally thought. Yes a sheep, just on the other side of the spectrum on the same scale.

You have to realize Israel isn't America and realize things don't work as they do over there as oppose to over here. View things from a more religous motivated angle and realize the world wouldn't stand by while Israel nukes every damn country that opposes them.

[Emerald_Dragon]

>>Its worthless because we choose to make it worthless.
>It's useless because of it's policies which disallow it from doing what needs to be done.

and who helped to write those policies? who founded the U.N.? who provides it a place to congregate? am i pulling that out of my ass? why do you spin it as if we had nothing to do with its ineffectiveness?

it works for us, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. Because Powell couldn't convince them to help us in Iraq, we went off to do it ourselves. hence, its worthless because we choose to make it worthless. whether it be in the policies we helped to write, or our veto of any actions members want to pursue. Worthless.

Now, if it had any strength behind it, it may have stopped us from invading, may have disarmed Iraq conventionally, may have stopped Israel from expanding, may have promoted world peace through diplomacy.
But it does not.


>>from inadequate Iranian nuclear reactor excesses.
>Whoa, ease down boy.
>Apparently you have high level military documents detailing that this
>or your pulling this straight from your ass.

They can allegedly build nukes. not as effectively and in quantity like we or the Russians.
but they are not Iraq. They were at war with Iraq before we were. Oh, I see, you believe they would have used their nukes on Iraq, but now, we control Iraq. I didn't see that. I guess we better take them out now too [/sarcasm].

you know, i'm sure if we didn't invade Iraq, we would not have Iran as a potential enemy. Now that we are Iraq, I guess we should worry about Iranian nukes. Hell, those nukes were prolly meant for Iraq. Mymy how the balance of power shifts. Do you think we went after the wrong country? You think we should beat the drums of war for Iran, now that they for sure, will come after us, instead of keeping Iraq's WMDs in check?


>It's just that Iran is getting more mainstream press now,
>I'm betting your one of those that think we're now accusing Iran?

and you're the one that believed that Iraq had nukes? was an imminent, 45-minute threat? that OBL and others like him hate us because of our Freedom? Because we let women vote? Didya know, we didn't let women vote either? Until the suffragettes had their way.

I bet you also believe that conspiracies don't exist [conjecture].
Especially if they occur in the U.S.

Because they don't publicize it on CNN/Fox doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You forget that they are controlled media with their own spin.

I recommend reading all sources available, then deciding, not limiting your truths, to be based on ABC/NBC/CBS. You have to be able to look beyond partisan politics.


>If Israel would execute military assaults against an arab country first,
>like what was said in the first post, there would be severe retaliation.
>...
>This isn't the 60s, things are different now.

and that's where i disagreed. Have their neighbors built up their militaries? Do they possess nukes? is a nuke capable of taking out vast military assets, or not? do you know what tactical nukes are?

and if there was a "massive" retaliation, would the U.S. step in to defend its nuclear blackmailer, or not? if I were Russia, Germany, or France, I'd have to consider the U.S. as a potential enemy, if I wanted to retaliate against Israel. So, who would retaliate? Iraqis? Syrians? Palestinians? Turks? :grin


>You're a moron.

and you're rude, close-minded, and dense. but i have no problems with that. I'm beginning to expect it of you. not quite the level of doolittle, but getting there. keep reading. you can only grow from where you're at. I'm happy that you have at least conceded that our gov't allowed 911 to occur. But it prolly took the official 911 commission's media blitz espousing bureaucratic bumbling, to do so. Old news.


>realize the world wouldn't stand by while Israel nukes
>every damn country that opposes them.

of course not, they don't have enough nukes. give em time. they can only hold so much territory at a time. but they are growing, settlement by settlement.

[DarkAce]

and who helped to write those policies? who founded the U.N.? who provides it a place to congregate? am i pulling that out of my ass? why do you spin it as if we had nothing to do with its ineffectiveness?

Do you not realize how the UN has evolved since it was since started? The roles it plays today as oppose to than? Do you not realize that they have their own system they adhere to and the US can't force their own policies onto them? America helped start it, but it's been on it's own two feet for some time now...with your logic we should blame the aboriginals for all of America's problems.

You continue to only see the UN's role in Iraq and why people call the UN worthless. Do some more research then come back and talk.


blah blah blah, I'm trying to look all badass making empty dumbfounded statements...

Yes it's all true. Anyone who has ever read my posts know I'm the most close minded, mainstream news information gatherer, ignorant sob here. I put humanhybrid to shame on how much I don't know about things! /sarcasm

Stick to 9/11 threads were your opinion is atleast menial.

[mickydoolittle]

What you say makes a lot of sense Dark Ace, you like to post that this is not a "fluffy, fantasy world" we live in. I guess i really wanted to believe in the US as the good guys with the white hats...

AMERICA is indeed composed of good guys--but theye don't wear the white hats. We will always be damned if we do and damned if we don't. By this, I refer to the non-involvement of stopping the tutsi massacre. We are damned because we did nothing to assist in stopping said massacre. We help Israel, and we are damned if we do help. The rest of my planet is composed largely of fickle ignorant mushheads. They are a finicky unhappy breed. Whate are you gonna do? You're gonna look out for your best interests and help out as you see fit. That way, you'll always remain. Enough of this kumbayah let's-hold-hands feel-good-crap.


....this made me naive as to some of the realities of the world. I am sort of worried about the seeming trend of the US becomeing "alienated" from the rest of the world. Did you know OPEC now demands payment in Euroes and not US dollars. I can just see countries like China, Germany, france and maybe Russia patiently waiting for the US to overextend itself, or be apread too thin, or even just plain burn out.

AMERICA has always been considered evil--even when we were saving the idiot French from permanent german domination and saving their culture from being forever ruined by the Nazi regime. AMERICA does provide much relief and monetary support--this support is regularly written off. That means me and my fellow tax-paying AMERICAns are responsible for that loaned money being replaced. Yea democracy! Thanks FDR. :vbroll:

Yes, AMERICA will indeed one day burn out. Anyone who thinks different represents my avatar to the fullest extent. Now, the end of AMERICA will not occur for a long long time as the global economy depends too much on the existence of AMERICA as a superpower. This is why I'm voting for Bush.

On an another note: Kerry is way too much of a flip-flopping pussy to be of any use in the global arena. Kerry says AMERICA should be like one big neighborhood. I bet big $$$ that Kerry couldn't name half of his neighbors if he was ordered to at gunpoint.

[MetalMilitia]

>A lot of muslims hate the west not only because of our support of Israel,
>but because of our ideologies, our foreign policies, etc.

lemmeguess, because of our freedom... you've been watching too much TV.


The major reason the US is hated by 750 million or so moslems is because of our support for Isreal.


A lot of muslims hate the west not only because of our support of Israel, but because of our ideologies, our foreign policies, etc.

Did the Terrorists Attack the U.S. Because They Hated Our "Freedom," as Bush Said?

Bush said that the terrorists attacked the WTC because they hate our "freedom." I have to admit that, yes, it's true: The terrorists hated "freedom" all right.

They hated the "freedom" that Israel has to routinely bomb dozens of innocent Palestinians' apartments just so the Israelis might possibly kill one "suspected" terrorist.

They hated the "freedom" that Israel has to discriminate against Palestinians who have lived there all their lives, while giving special treatment to Jews, including free housing and guaranteed wages--even to those Jews who have just moved there from Russia.

They hated the "freedom" that Israel has to use America-made Apache helicopters to indiscriminately shoot at innocent Palestinians in the street just so one person, who might--or might not--be in the crowd can be targeted.

They hate the "freedom" that Israel has to routinely bulldoze over Palestinians' homes, like the home of the good medical doctor that they were bulldozing for no good reason (no tunnels!) on that day when they murdered the American citizen Rachel Corrie by bulldozing her over too.

They hate the "freedom" that Israel has to build a massive concrete wall, which is about twice as tall as the Berlin Wall was, right through the center of the innocent Palestinians' homes.

And they hate America for supporting this "freedom" perpetrated against their kinsmen, with the billions of dollars that the Israelis extort from American taxpayers year after year through our gutless and spineless politicians, who care more about their campaign money than decency and honesty.

Article follows, where the head of Al-Quaida network tells that, lo and behold, it wasn't because he hated America's "freedom" but because of our support for the bandit state of Israel

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/9222612.htm

Posted on Fri, Jul. 23, 2004

U.S. policy on Israel key motive for effort

PLOTTER INVOLVED BIN LADEN TO GAIN MORE RESOURCES

By Terry McDermott

LOS ANGELES TIMES

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong disagreement with American support for Israel, said the final report of the Sept. 11 commission.

Mohammed conceived the initial outline of the attack six years before its execution and brought the plan to al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden because he thought he did not have the resources to carry it out on his own.

The Sept. 11 report contains the fullest accounting of Mohammed's overarching role from original conception to supervision of details. Bin Laden, too, was fully involved, selecting all or most of the participants, ordering the substance and the location of their training, and contributing to the timing of the attacks and the selection of targets, the report says.

The report makes a strong case that al-Qaida accomplished the attacks without any hint of state sponsorship. The report also appears to lay to rest the notion, long alluded to by administration officials including Vice President Dick Cheney, that hijacker Mohamed Atta traveled to the Czech Republic to meet an Iraqi intelligence operative in the spring of 2001.

In addition to repeating evidence that Atta was in the United States at the time, the report revealed that the Iraqi agent was not in Prague either when the meeting was alleged to have occurred.

Much of the report's detail comes from interrogations of al-Qaida operatives in U.S. custody, including Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. Some of that information is contradictory; much of it is difficult to corroborate. One CIA analysis cited in the report, for example, is titled "Khalid Shaykh Muhammed's Threat Reporting -- Precious Truths, Surrounded by a Bodyguard of Lies."

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/July/26%20o/Terrorists%20Attacked%20America%20Because%20They%2 0Hated%20Freedom%20You%20Bet%20They%20Did%20By%20M ark%20Franklin.htm

I'm way outta line. Let's just nuke everyone and start over.

-MM- :crs:

[DarkAce]

I would of thought an admin would know by now the right places to post in. I believe the thread you were looking for would be the one comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.

As for this thread no one is argueing over or agreeing with the actions of Israel against the Palestinian people. A loose mention of the word freedom didn't really need all that posted. We've already stated that one of the reasons they hate us is because of our support of Israel. But I guess there's some out there that think Israel are innocent in all this, and need to be reminded.

[MetalMilitia]

It popped up, I will reprimand myself accordingly.

/me opens a beer

[Defiant Noquisi]

Excellent post MM. Right to the point and well placed as to why the Israeli's wont take care of anyone but themselves, unless its using the Palestinians for target practice.

/me hands MM another beer.