Where do dead babies go?

[dutchie]

When I was a child, the answer my father gave to this question proved to be the end to my religion. The phase I went into that ultimately meant the end of my beliefs and took more than 3 years to complete, was triggered by this. Yes, people - I have been a devout christian too, believe it or not.

My father said that babies that die soon after birth can ONLY go to heaven if both parents are born again christians. All other babies will go to eternal damnation, hell in other words. A four year old was - in his eyes - capable of understanding the gospel, and thus capable in making a choice either for or against Christ. This child has no excuse at death, so it will go either to heaven or hell based upon its own choice. A 4 year old, mind you!!!!

This completely shattered my belief in God as a being of love. A God that would send newborn infants into the fires of hell, because their parents did not believe, was just too much for me.

Much later I asked this question again, this time to a Baptist minister. Much to my surprise he gave me practically the same answer. Is this lovelesness truly a part of christian dogmatics, in other words, are there people on this forum that share that belief? (Based upon the inheritance of sin, blah blah).

[Marajadex]

I don't remember where I heard this... But... I thought the spirit goes back where it was and waits to be born again... Not born again like a born again christian. Just born and lives againg to grow up. Now that is if it was an infant. Say a 2 or 3 year old would go to heaven. No conditions. If you believe in re-incarnation then we are all re-born at some point.

[dutchie]

Hm.. But what is your belief in this matter?

[dcookcan]

My belief is that only God can make this decision. Anyone who tells you that they know better is full of crap.

The scriptures say that all men inherit sin through Adam. That includes those kids from Christian parents that think their kids are immune.

I believe that dead babies will be presented the gospel and allowed to make a decision. BTW, I am referring to the gospel that was preached to Abraham, before Jesus died.

[Defiant Noquisi]

My beliefs are that ANYONE "dying" from this world goes on to the next world.

[dcookcan]

Yep, and just what that next world is, I guess we will have to wait and see what it actually is. :abduct:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Very true indeed. Survive the storm ok?

[dutchie]

Hm. Evasive manoeuvres?!

[repentantsinner]

If i'm not mistaken jesus said "suffer the children to come unto me", the christian god loves the innocent, innocent babies are so trusting and have not been exposed to the jaded world so they themselves are blameless. Each is judged according to their own works and not on the beliefs of their parents. Ask a christian about the rapture and they will say all chidren under the age of 12 or so go to heaven. Children simply have not been around long enough to sin grievously or turn dark. It must have been devestating for you to hear that at such a young age DN, i hope this helps.

[dutchie]

DN, repentantsinner thinks you and I are one and the same, cute eh?!?

[Marajadex]

Hm.. But what is your belief in this matter?Honestly I do not know what I believe. The best I can explain it is that when the spirit leaves this body it continues on. Wether on this plain of existence or another.

Several years ago I had one of thous Aura photos taken. The person reading the picture told me that I was an old soul. Having lived for thousands of years and possibly on other worlds. I don't know if I believe in this but it it was a very interesting reading. If this is true maybe it explains why I have felt so old even as a young child.

But that is OT. Back to what I believe... Well I believe that if a baby dies from naturel causes or other reasons they are welcomed to their next phase/realm of existence.
:bearhug:

[bbbv3.5]

Dutchie did your father really tell you that....if my father were to tell me that i might of given up faith. How do the babies who havent seen life yet go to hell because iof their parents decisions. And if the parents arent even christain and they were good people why would they go to hell. This is the christain religion today. If your not christain your going to hell.

[DarkAce]

Well if you follow church tradition, then you're going straight to hell because of original sin. In regards to the rapture, you're getting pwned by JC if you haven't accepted him. Children aren't spared if you're going according to scripture unless I've misssed something.

[repentantsinner]

How could an innocent child automaticly be sentenced to hell? They are so innocent they do not even yet knoe evil exists, how could they be evil? Also, at that young age most have not been exposed to or fall for any anti-Jesus doctorines. Most children are so blatently honest they don't even lie. I suspect Somebody sure would like us to believe in guarenteed damnation so why not sin, hurt others, rape pillage and plunder. Dutchie, for some unknown reason i thought DN had started this thread, i apologize for the mistake.

[DarkAce]

Good, these questions seems you're on your way to understanding the BS that is most religions.

No one should do any action because they're playing on a scorecard for the afterlife. You do not kill, murder, rape, etc. because it's the right thing to do.

[playmaker88]

As I don't believe in heaven or hell, (or God for that matter) and don't believe in a soul existing outside of a body, I think that a dead baby is as dead as a dead cat, dead fish, dead adult human. Dead. No more, no less. It will only live on in the memory of those who knew him/her.

[playmaker88]

No one should do any action because they're playing on a scorecard for the afterlife. You do not kill, murder, rape, etc. because it's the right thing to do.

Amen to that.

[repentantsinner]

All i really know for sure Dark Ace is that alot of the Holy bible is true, sadly some of it through punishment, so why not all of it? Including......."good and faithful servant enter into the joy of the lord" .............see signature. Dutchie, was that baptist minister you asked the type that really get going when they preach? To the point of waving arms and wailing? Some here in the US really do get carried away. I trust in the fact that God wants as many as possible saved.ps; in case of misunderstanding the signature is latin for "out of the depths and twords the light"

[autryn2]

No offense, Dutchie, but your dad didn't know what he was talking about.

From 1st Corinthians Chapter 7:

14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
If children are holy.... how can they be condemned???

Having an unbelieving father and a Christian mother, this verse really made me feel better about myself!
---------------------------------------------------------

One time, my daughter... 7yrs old at the time, said that she and her friends were having a discussion. The discussion was the following: What if a 7 yr. old died.... would that kid go to heaven or to hell. One of her friends said heaven, because he(she) was under the age of accountability, the other said hell, because he(she) had not accepted Christ.

My answer to her was: "tell your friends I said Shame on You! Don't you have enough faith to believe that God would do the right thing, whatever that might be???"

The REAL answer is that God gives more, puts up with more, and is more longsuffering than ANY, ANY, ANY BODY EVER HAS. He sees all sin and STILL gives blessings to the sinners. All the earth was sinning before the flood and He still saved mandkind through Noah. Even after the Jewish people (for the most part) couldn't remain faithful, and the rest of the world basically didn't love Him or even care, He sent His only begotten Son to DIE as a sacrifice to PROOVE that He loves us. Thats Love, Dude.... and this same entity (who wants us to call Him Father) is going to burn innocent children in Hell??? Give me a break! The Bible teaches us that God IS Love!

The ONLY way people go to hell is because of their hard heart. AFTER a person hears the Gospel (AND is old enough to understand that they are sinners and need God to forgive them) AND rejects Gods offer (usually not just one time but MANY) THEN they are bound for hell... BUT the Bible teaches us that one who has sinned his WHOLE LIFE can STILL be forgiven at the end (eg, the other guy being crucified beside Christ that believed in Him). The Bible teaches us that God knows us better than we know ourselves (even knew us before we were in the womb), so how old is a person when they've reached that 'age of accountability' and how many times should a person be given to reject God before he(she) has been given all the chances that they SHOULD need????

I don't know and neither does your Dad... but God does and He is just. As a matter of fact, God tells His followers to be MORE than JUST fair. Its' because He is too....

[Defiant Noquisi]

DN, repentantsinner thinks you and I are one and the same, cute eh?!? Yes it is, especially when I have gigantic knockers and a stainless steel (ahem, NOT tin) hat and you are a box, a horny box at that! :love:

[Doomer]

You are an independent thinker, dutchie. I respect and admire that quality more than any other.

[dutchie]

Thanks Doomer. BTW I had a good laugh over DarkAce's verbal trap he played on repentantsinner. But what he says - the Bible FUNDAMENTALLY states that all who die will go to hell under original sin - was not adressed properly. And the example autryn2 gave, ONLY covered the situation where there is 1 believing parent.

Now take a child in China.. No christan parents...

[playmaker88]

The ONLY way people go to hell is because of their hard heart. AFTER a person hears the Gospel (AND is old enough to understand that they are sinners and need God to forgive them) AND rejects Gods offer (usually not just one time but MANY) THEN they are bound for hell... BUT the Bible teaches us that one who has sinned his WHOLE LIFE can STILL be forgiven at the end (eg, the other guy being crucified beside Christ that believed in Him). The Bible teaches us that God knows us better than we know ourselves (even knew us before we were in the womb), so how old is a person when they've reached that 'age of accountability' and how many times should a person be given to reject God before he(she) has been given all the chances that they SHOULD need????

I don't know and neither does your Dad... but God does and He is just. As a matter of fact, God tells His followers to be MORE than JUST fair. Its' because He is too....

So I have never done anything seriously wrong and I go to hell because I don't believe in God and a habitual thief and even a rapist who ask for forgiveness on their death bed go to heaven because they've seen the light. Does that sound fair?

Sending me to hell (for whatever sins I am supposed to have committed) (and lets remember hell is supposed to be the place where Attila the Hun and Adolf Hitler would avoid going on holiday) is like placing a two year old in an electric chair because he/she spilt his/her milk. Does that sound just?

[Edge]

A dead babies goes into a state of decomposition. Once its dead,its dead.

[dutchie]

Hm, Crude, but honest...

[playmaker88]

A dead babies goes into a state of decomposition. Once its dead,its dead.

Pretty much what I stated in #16.

[DarkAce]

Ah your mother was a good ol dear who happened to be a christian and your father a prick who coincidently happened to be an atheist. What's the moral of that story boys and girls? Atheists are icky, horrible monsters! Grrrr arrrrrh!

We have original sin because of Adam and Eve. We are all born with it. The only way to get rid of it is to be baptized and accept Jesus. If not, you're going to hell according to church tradition. Hence an innocent child/ the most noble person on the earth/etc who don't adhere to Christianity are going to hell. Is that love?

The verse you posted was probably out of context and describing a certain situation. That or possibly contradictory, tends to happen with so many different authors.

Killing EVERY single human/child/animal/etc on the earth is love? Atleast one had to be innocent, so killing innocence is love?

Doing what he did to Joeb was love? There are countless other stories, mostly in the OT where we see the ruthlessness of God's 'love'.

People view Jesus as God's only son (we're all gods children) and how does sending your only son to be brutally tortured, punished and killed = love? How does Jesus death save humanity again? How does it prove he loves us, and why would you think of it as that?

Jesus was about love. Not God. Don't get it twisted.

You're obliged to believe in whatever the hell you want. I could believe that in heaven there's nothing but women parading in thongs serving me chilled beer. Would it be true? No one would know. But if you follow a religion then follow the damn beliefs of said religion and don't twist them to fit your own.

[dutchie]

So what you're saying is (don't get me wrong here, I deeply respect THE WAY you said it...) in essence, according to scriptures all babies will fry but the zealots present here are twisting around those scriptures to make God come across more friendly?

[Defiant Noquisi]

You're obliged to believe in whatever the hell you want. I could believe that in heaven there's nothing but women parading in thongs serving me chilled beer. Would it be true? No one would know. But if you follow a religion then follow the damn beliefs of said religion and don't twist them to fit your own.

/me thinks that heaven would be herself as Red Sonja and all the men looked like Adam Beach and Vegas Ronin, the less clothes the better and serving her....who gives a shit with that kinda meat walking around!

[dutchie]

Who the Hell is Red Sonja?!?

If I take your words seriously (won't, promise) you'd love to enter that place VERY soon. I just have serious doubts about VegasRonin already wanting to be there already... :evbat:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Who the Hell is Red Sonja?!?

If I take your words seriously (won't, promise) you'd love to enter that place VERY soon. I just have serious doubts about VegasRonin already wanting to be there already... :evbat: Hehehe, it is a dream since I dont believe in heaven. Red Sonja is a gal has been granted special powers. Of course there is always a price and the price is that she cannot give herself to any man, he has to best her. There is more of course...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089893/

Ive been thinking a little more about this thread. I just cant imagine the cruelty of a religion that would damn babies. It aint right in my book. :devsmoke:

[dutchie]

Well, if you look at my first post, that was exactly the problem I was facing as a kid, and which ultimately lead to me leaving the church altogether. I refuse to believe in a God that chooses to send babies to hell, and Jesus just adding to the confusion. A question I already asked myself as a child: Why did Jesus die to give the promise of heaven to those who believe in his sacrifice ONLY? Why not save the whole WORLD at once?? There is a mean streak in that, IMO. What about people who have NEVER in their life even HEARD of Jesus? And whatever happened to all those millions that lived and died BEFORE Jesus? Chuck'em all into the eternal furnace?

[Defiant Noquisi]

See, thats the problem of Christian interpretation in general. One of them, I think it is Lutheran but I cant remember now, says that if your name is in a "book" you get to go to heaven. I asked how they decide who gets to be in the book and I was told it had already been decided. Can you imagine how I felt hearing that? I already had horrible self esteem at that time and being a young teenager didnt help either. There are too many variations and interpretations to make a good solid choice if one does choose to believe that way. I refuse to believe that babies would go somewhere horrible.

[autryn2]

DarkAce wrote:
"Ah your mother was a good ol dear who happened to be a christian and your father a prick who coincidently happened to be an atheist"

I assume you're talking to me, pirate. So I'll answer....
---------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, no one HAPPENS to be anything. YOU are a product of yourself (what you want, what you belive, what you think is important) so no one, not even you, just HAPPENS to be a certain way.... you are what you WANT to be.

DarkAce wrote:
"Killing EVERY single human/child/animal/etc on the earth is love? Atleast one had to be innocent, so killing innocence is love? "

From Genesis Chapter 5:

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Get it.... "EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil ALL THE TIME"

These people were already lost to God.... and He GRIEVED over them. Have you ever lost someone you loved???? ... If so, then you know what it means to grieve. You can't grieve over someone you don't love so its easy to see that God loves us... even when we sin all the time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tell you what, I was preparing to refute you're entire message but I have a deadline so I'll cut to the chase:

There's two kinds of people: Those that think that WE are responsible to God for our actions (and inactions) and those that think we are not. I am one that realizes that I, myself, fall short of God's expectations and I need Christ to be forgiven. I want to be forgiven because I want to be with God after this life is over.

There are many on this board (yourself included) that tend to think that God doesn't exist, and even if He does, you think that you are blameless, and it is God Himself that should be judged for all YOUR troubles. I got news for you, bud, it ain't YOUR world (Its Gods)....

...you yourself said "Jesus was about love. Not God. Don't get it twisted." You're the one that's twisted. Well just who do you think sent Jesus to save the world??? He didn't come here on His own (If fact, He said so many times AND He said who sent Him - His heavenly Father). In the garden of Gesthemeny(sp??), it was Jesus that said (while praying to God) if there's any way let this cup pass away from me, but not my will, but thy will be done (paraphrased). If God wanted His Son to atone for our sins then He was giving us an 'out' so we could (if we wanted) be saved from our imperfection and be with Him forever. That's love, pirate!!!!

And by the way... could you condemn one that you love (your son) for a bunch of folks that didn't give you the time of day???? No you couldn't... but God did and its BECAUSE HIS LOVE IS PERFECT..

God loves us but we are responsible for our decisions in this world. You can believe whatever YOU want to.... but thats the way it is.

Those that presume to judge the Almighty God judge themselves with their own words....

================================================== =
BTW, have you seen the new pirate movie comming out????......

Its rated AARRRRRE!!!!

[repentantsinner]

See, thats the problem of Christian interpretation in general. One of them, I think it is Lutheran but I cant remember now, says that if your name is in a "book" you get to go to heaven. I asked how they decide who gets to be in the book and I was told it had already been decided. Can you imagine how I felt hearing that? I already had horrible self esteem at that time and being a young teenager didnt help either. There are too many variations and interpretations to make a good solid choice if one does choose to believe that way. I refuse to believe that babies would go somewhere horrible.
One of the ways i was lead intp despair in the past is thinking my name was not in the book of life. From what i understand a name can be removed through persistant, vulger sin. A name can be put back into the book of life through repentence and the changing of one's ways. I don't know about predestination but most people will agree God values justice almost above all else. It seems everybody would be given a fair chance at life and the afterlife.

[repentantsinner]

As for children going someplace horrible, i just don't buy it either. Children have no prejudices, they don't lie, Jesus himself said "out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise. Children are not sneaky and sometimes can see right through people, they are so pure. Ever hear the saying about that indent we have on our upper lip under our noses? When a child is born an Angel comes to the child, puts it's finger over the child's lips and says sshhhhh.It is only when we get older that we become jaded.

[DarkAce]

First of all, no one HAPPENS to be anything. YOU are a product of yourself (what you want, what you belive, what you think is important) so no one, not even you, just HAPPENS to be a certain way.... you are what you WANT to be.


What are you going on about? Your parents happened to choose different paths and coincidently your father was an ass and the path he chose was atheism. Your directly/indirectly purposing that it's because of atheism that he turned out like that. Btw life is all about choices, but some choices are played out for you regardless of your choice. No one chooses to be handicapped. No one chooses to be homosexual, etc.

Since Superman can't see through lead, I guess you can't see through BS and realize logic. If my wife and kids don't love me, and it makes me grieve, I'm allowed to kill them because I love them...huh?

No, you get it. "EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil ALL THE TIME" I bolded the part to make it easier for you. So because we had wicked thoughts that's justification to murder EVERY LIVING THING ON THE EARTH?


There are many on this board (yourself included) that tend to think that God doesn't exist, and even if He does, you think that you are blameless, and it is God Himself that should be judged for all YOUR troubles. I got news for you, bud, it ain't YOUR world (Its Gods)....


Don't play that "people blame God for their troubles" BS. I'm accountable for all of my actions and I know that. I put fate into my own hands and don't rely on having God do things for me like you presumably do.

If people don't love you, would you send your son knowing that he would be tortured and killed so people can like you? What kind of psychotic attention whore would you be to allow that? Plus God would know all the evilness that would be done in his and his son's name years down the line, why would he allow that if he really loved man? What justification is there for the killing of millions of innocence in the name of God?

If you're into the Bible lingo then you know we were given free will. Whatever path we chose is of our own choice. Why is it then that man is punished so harshly whenever he's supposidly straying from God's path? Where's the love in that?


"We find now that the prosperity of nations has depended, not upon their religion, not upon the goodness or providence of some god, but on soil and climate and commerce, upon the ingenuity, industry, and courage of the people, upon the development of the mind, on the spread of education, on the liberty of thought and action; and that in this mighty panorama of national life, reason has built and superstition has destroyed."

"I believe in the religion of reason -- the gospel of this world; in the development of the mind, in the accumulation of intellectual wealth, to the end that man may free himself from superstitious fear, to the end that he may take advantage of the forces of nature to feed and clothe the world." --Robert Ingersoll

"A man`s ethical behavior should be based effectively on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of rewardafter death."-- Albert Einstein

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg

"Religion was nothing more than a self-deception in which man engages to deny his own loneliness and fear. God is nothing more than a projection of the infant's loved, feared, all-potent father."

[autryn2]

This is how God feels about those that don't want to know Him...

From Jeremiah Chapter2:

5 This is what the LORD says:

"What fault did your fathers find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
6 They did not ask, 'Where is the LORD ,
who brought us up out of Egypt
and led us through the barren wilderness,
through a land of deserts and rifts,
a land of drought and darkness, [1]
a land where no one travels and no one lives?'
7 I brought you into a fertile land
to eat its fruit and rich produce.
But you came and defiled my land
and made my inheritance detestable.
8 The priests did not ask,
'Where is the LORD ?'
Those who deal with the law did not know me;
the leaders rebelled against me.
The prophets prophesied by Baal,
following worthless idols.

9 "Therefore I bring charges against you again,"
declares the LORD .
"And I will bring charges against your children's children.
10 Cross over to the coasts of Kittim [2] and look,
send to Kedar [3] and observe closely;
see if there has ever been anything like this:
11 Has a nation ever changed its gods?
(Yet they are not gods at all.)
But my people have exchanged their [4] Glory
for worthless idols.
12 Be appalled at this, O heavens,
and shudder with great horror,"
declares the LORD .
13 "My people have committed two sins:
They have forsaken me,
the spring of living water,
and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.
14 Is Israel a servant, a slave by birth?
Why then has he become plunder?
15 Lions have roared;
they have growled at him.
They have laid waste his land;
his towns are burned and deserted.
16 Also, the men of Memphis [5] and Tahpanhes
have shaved the crown of your head. [6]
17 Have you not brought this on yourselves
by forsaking the LORD your God
when he led you in the way?
18 Now why go to Egypt
to drink water from the Shihor [7] ?
And why go to Assyria
to drink water from the River [8] ?
19 Your wickedness will punish you;
your backsliding will rebuke you.
Consider then and realize
how evil and bitter it is for you
when you forsake the LORD your God
and have no awe of me,"
declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.

20 "Long ago you broke off your yoke
and tore off your bonds;
you said, 'I will not serve you!'
Indeed, on every high hill
and under every spreading tree
you lay down as a prostitute.
21 I had planted you like a choice vine
of sound and reliable stock.
How then did you turn against me
into a corrupt, wild vine?
22 Although you wash yourself with soda
and use an abundance of soap,
the stain of your guilt is still before me,"
declares the Sovereign LORD .
23 "How can you say, 'I am not defiled;
I have not run after the Baals'?
See how you behaved in the valley;
consider what you have done.
You are a swift she-camel
running here and there,
24 a wild donkey accustomed to the desert,
sniffing the wind in her craving-
in her heat who can restrain her?
Any males that pursue her need not tire themselves;
at mating time they will find her.
25 Do not run until your feet are bare
and your throat is dry.
But you said, 'It's no use!
I love foreign gods,
and I must go after them.'

26 "As a thief is disgraced when he is caught,
so the house of Israel is disgraced-
they, their kings and their officials,
their priests and their prophets.

------------------------------------------------
27 They say to wood, 'You are my father,'
and to stone, 'You gave me birth.'
They have turned their backs to me
and not their faces;
yet when they are in trouble, they say,
'Come and save us!'
28 Where then are the gods you made for yourselves?
Let them come if they can save you
when you are in trouble!
------------------------------------------

For you have as many gods
as you have towns, O Judah.

29 "Why do you bring charges against me?
You have all rebelled against me,"
declares the LORD .
30 "In vain I punished your people;
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravening lion.

31 "You of this generation, consider the word of the LORD :

"Have I been a desert to Israel
or a land of great darkness?
Why do my people say, 'We are free to roam;
we will come to you no more'?
32 Does a maiden forget her jewelry,
a bride her wedding ornaments?
Yet my people have forgotten me,
days without number.
33 How skilled you are at pursuing love!
Even the worst of women can learn from your ways.
34 On your clothes men find
the lifeblood of the innocent poor,
though you did not catch them breaking in.
Yet in spite of all this
35 you say, 'I am innocent;
he is not angry with me.'
But I will pass judgment on you
because you say, 'I have not sinned.'

[playmaker88]

Sounds like a God who is having a massive sulk, feeling that he/she/it wants more respect and is feeling unwanted. So he/she/it reacts with threats. How human is that? :ohmy:

[DarkAce]

I see no point in typing up commentary for each of those passages, instead I ask, why do you let the bible speak for you? Are you not capable? I have made statements yet your rebutal, as in other posts and in other threads usually just have you quoting the bible. I'm not asking what the bible says, if I wanted to do that I would look through mine. I'm asking your own opinions on the matters I've brought up.

[substand]

just to throw a monkey wrench into the situation (since i don't post in here often), who is to say that our silly human notions of love are correct? who are we as lowly humans to say what God does or does not think? Kind of presumptuous if you ask me. We have only man made book and interpretations, translated from originals on which to base our assumptions about God. In any case, I guess I just found it funny you comparing yourself to God, as if the same rules and understandings we have constructed for ourselves automatically apply to the presumable (as far as religious debate goes, not my or your opinion necesarily) Creator.

If you are going to debate the matter seriously, at least you should take into account the godliness of God, and not go around saying things like "well, if God can do it, I can too."

Also, I beleive you should also take into account the audience... The bible did not say "all babies who have not had the chance to accept Christ will go to hell." It is in a particular time and circumstance and to a particular audience in which the teachings were said, so keep that in mind.

[playmaker88]

who is to say that our silly human notions of love are correct? who are we as lowly humans to say what God does or does not think? Kind of presumptuous if you ask me. We have only man made book and interpretations, translated from originals on which to base our assumptions about God. In any case, I guess I just found it funny you comparing yourself to God, as if the same rules and understandings we have constructed for ourselves automatically apply to the presumable (as far as religious debate goes, not my or your opinion necesarily) Creator.

If you are going to debate the matter seriously, at least you should take into account the godliness of God, and not go around saying things like "well, if God can do it, I can too."


Substand I find it very difficult to converse with you as you don't make clear exactly who you are talking to. I'm trying to work out who compares themselves to God and I can't find the quote "well, if God can do it, I can too."'

As someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God I also find it difficult to "take into account the godliness of God".

Shouldn't your "presumable" read 'possible' even if a part of religious debate if it is "not my or your opinion necessarily"?

[repentantsinner]

Well, if you look at my first post, that was exactly the problem I was facing as a kid, and which ultimately lead to me leaving the church altogether. I refuse to believe in a God that chooses to send babies to hell, and Jesus just adding to the confusion. A question I already asked myself as a child: Why did Jesus die to give the promise of heaven to those who believe in his sacrifice ONLY? Why not save the whole WORLD at once?? There is a mean streak in that, IMO. What about people who have NEVER in their life even HEARD of Jesus? And whatever happened to all those millions that lived and died BEFORE Jesus? Chuck'em all into the eternal furnace?
In my old darker days Dutchie I actually entertained the idea that Jesus had failed becuase he died to save from sin and there is still sin in the world. Now I've come to realize that Jesus is a PERSONAL savior; he died to save each ONE from sin; that is people who come to him. As for people who don't believe, if you don't need him you don't need him. Many people who are not religious still follow the golden rule, and treat their neighbors well, do the right thing etc..

[dutchie]

And the people that never heard of Jesus? What about them?

[autryn2]

DarkAce wrote:

"I see no point in typing up commentary for each of those passages, instead I ask, why do you let the bible speak for you? Are you not capable?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, no problem.... BUT, we have a fundamental problem.

I believe in God and as such I believe that God is more than I can comprehend (or you either).... God is beyond our understanding in as much as His decisions are concerned because you can't make the assumption that you have enough information to make an accurate assesment OR are righteous enough to make a sound judgement whereas God is both aware of ALL the information, is righteous and will make the correct decision. Also, my belief is that our intelligence is God's stupidity... in other words God is so far beyond us in intelligence that we can't begin to even understand the way His mind works. He takes in to account ALL while we fiddle around with only a small portion of real TRUTH. In addition, God even sets our standard for what is right and wrong (whether you believe so or not). Finally, God OWNS this world, the universe, and ALL that is in it (that includes me-n-you) and can do with us whatever He wants..... our very life and breath exist due to His sufferage. Yet, in spite of the mass disbelief, sin, and hatred in this world He continues to call us to a higher existence (although most don't hear Him). Based on all of the above I believe that God is above our scrutiny or judgement.

You on the other hand do not believe in God OR you just don't have a realistic idea of just how far below God you actually are. You are trying to judge that which you can't even comrehend yet you judge Him harshly. You trust your own intelligence completely yet you are too stupid to understand that there just might be something out there that is greater than you. My guess is that your life is somewhere close to crap and you are just looking for someone or something to blame for your bad decisions.

You have said that I only reply with scripture and you are totally right. I believe that the message that God has given us is better than any message I have to give. I don't rely totally on my intelligence but instead rely on my God for direction so when I discuss things of a religous nature I go to the scriptures and rely on what God says instead of relying on my intelligence because I understand that God has the answer. I understand that He is greater than me... I also understand that He loves me and I can trust where He leads me. I'm comfortable with that and to tell the truth my lifeis SO much better because I have relied on Him. Its not perfect because I'm not perfect (but I'm tryn2).

You, on the other hand, are just interested in a vain argument, so you can massage yourself mentally... and tell yourself how much smarter you are than all those Christian fools. Ever kick over an ant bed... see the ants run out??? Ever figure one of those ants had something over on another one with respect to intelligence???? Well, YOU are the ant saying "I'm SO much smarter than all the other ants!!!" Compared to God, we are all lower than those ants are to us....

[DarkAce]

You see, in the beginning we attributed human emotions to our god figures. Gave them human scenarios and such. In the evolution of religion, the creators of religion thought it best not to do this anymore. Instead they gave us all this other BS, we're not capable of understanding his intelligence, etc. They did this so we be clueless followers and don't question anything. You're a prime example of this. If we keep thinking of ourselves as mere ants, useless, stupid, inferior, etc. How do you ever expect us to attain harmony and unity with one another? Not through religion, that's for sure. Religion divides, always has, if your incapable of seeing that you're far more lost than I first guessed.

Heh, I'm sure in all your posting of scripture you've posted that only the Lord judges, and what are you doing to me?


You trust your own intelligence completely yet you are too stupid to understand that there just might be something out there that is greater than you. My guess is that your life is somewhere close to crap and you are just looking for someone or something to blame for your bad decisions.

Well isn't that a textbook example of a rebutal from someone who feels their faith is threatened. Why would my life be "crap" or I'm looking for someone to blame? Blame for what? No where in my postings past and present have I ever claimed to be superior then whatever god force. I don't put blame onto others for my actions like I'm sure you have and will continue to do so.

You continously say "This is God's love!" etc, etc. Yet if we are inable to understand God's actions then who are you to interpret that this is his love? I've never blamed God for anything. I've pointed out continously the flawed interpretations of those who follow most religions and believe their god/path is the only/right path and the actions taken by these said people in the name of God and religion.

You post scripture because your unable to think for yourself and to question things. You're a blind believer. Even the Jews (your parent religion) holds discussions and talks furiously about interpretations of their scripture etc.

And you are doing what? You tell me that I'm telling people how much smarter I am than them and you do what? You're telling me how insignificant I am, stupid, etc. Right. You spin this as much as you want, only you end up looking the fool in the end of it all. Vain arguement? I've posted valid points without harsh criticism on the individual (you) yet instead of actually thinking about the questions and giving a rational response, you post scripture and post a paragraph of BS saying we can't understand God's actions yet you and other christians take the liberty of doing that all the time regardless?

Get a clue. I ain't attacking God, but the many interpretations of this God and the flawed mechanism behind it. I've (probably not in this thread) shown the intent and implications behind many of the stories told of said God and the reasoning/truth behind them. Yet, I get responses from you and your 'kind' of people that blah blah blah I don't understand God, God is perfect or any other of the various yet same responses.

[playmaker88]

Many people who are not religious still follow the golden rule, and treat their neighbors well, do the right thing etc..

I totally agree repentantsinner but apparently this is not good enough for God. These people are alledgedly destined for hell.

[dutchie]

Repentantsinner, you talk about the notion that it would be impossible for us simple mortals to understand the first bit about the way God thinks. Another notion I refuse to accept. Did not God (in your POV) create us in his image? Are we not ALIKE GOD, so aren't we capable of making the same decisions, thinking along the same lines, reasoning? I should think that we are, otherwise God would become a totally unreliable and unpredictable entity...

[repentantsinner]

Good, these questions seems you're on your way to understanding the BS that is most religions.

No one should do any action because they're playing on a scorecard for the afterlife. You do not kill, murder, rape, etc. because it's the right thing to do.
I guess i feell for the game, being more concerned with the fate of innocent children. It was not the first time nor was it the last, I'm reminded of the movie excalibur when merlin is trying to catch a fish in the river, "Remember theres always something cleverer than yourself."

[repentantsinner]

Repentantsinner, you talk about the notion that it would be impossible for us simple mortals to understand the first bit about the way God thinks. Another notion I refuse to accept. Did not God (in your POV) create us in his image? Are we not ALIKE GOD, so aren't we capable of making the same decisions, thinking along the same lines, reasoning? I should think that we are, otherwise God would become a totally unreliable and unpredictable entity...
I really believe it is impossible for the "mortal" mind to comprehend God. We are said th have been created in his image, it's not for me to decide. We are governed by human nature not divine nature, and whether people like it or not probobly cannot come close to the wisdom, compassion, forgivness of God. Most people, and they don't have to be "religious" will tell you God is eternal, he never changes and can be relied on more than Human nature. As for Dark Aces "not" "right" Did you get off on that? What do you expect given the name? I overlooked it when posted for things more important, but now that you think it so important im looking for the blood flowing out of the wounds he inflicted on me. I just can't seem to find it.

[dutchie]

I really believe it is impossible for the "mortal" mind to comprehend God. We are said th have been created in his image, it's not for me to decide. We are governed by human nature not divine nature, and whether people like it or not probobly cannot come close to the wisdom, compassion, forgivness of God. Most people, and they don't have to be "religious" will tell you God is eternal, he never changes and can be relied on more than Human nature. As for Dark Aces "not" "right" Did you get off on that? What do you expect given the name? I overlooked it when posted for things more important, but now that you think it so important im looking for the blood flowing out of the wounds he inflicted on me. I just can't seem to find it.
I am not sure whether you were adressing that last bit of your post to me or to Dark Ace, so I won't go into that. It is however my conviction that - if there is a God - I would not want to believe in Him if he would truly be that being you describe.. A divine computer, never changing, thinking along rigid paths, showing no compassion (I know you are going to rebute that with the love of Christ's in his sacrifice, but where's the independance in the trinity gone, then?), or remorse. Sounds just like my Pentium 4. So far I heard no argument that would have me change my mind away from my agnosticism. If God is capable of sending babies to hell - and Dark Ace justly argues that if you follow scriptures literally on that, He is - I would not want to trust my soul with Him.

[repentantsinner]

I am not sure whether you were adressing that last bit of your post to me or to Dark Ace, so I won't go into that. It is however my conviction that - if there is a God - I would not want to believe in Him if he would truly be that being you describe.. A divine computer, never changing, thinking along rigid paths, showing no compassion (I know you are going to rebute that with the love of Christ's in his sacrifice, but where's the independance in the trinity gone, then?), or remorse. Sounds just like my Pentium 4. So far I heard no argument that would have me change my mind away from my agnosticism. If God is capable of sending babies to hell - and Dark Ace justly argues that if you follow scriptures literally on that, He is - I would not want to trust my soul with Him.As for believing in God or not, you really only have two choices. Do you like the band Rush? They have a song called free will "A planet of play things we dance on the strings of powers we cannot percieve." Original sin means death, and that we earn our bread by the sweat of our brow, and that this world is no longer paradise. The consequences of your agnosticism will be your own, God does in fact want your trust very much, however that will not much influence him come judgement day. God is not a computer either he feels acts loves, gets angry, punishes and restores. You are probobly right about his "rigid" laws, heaven and earth will pass away before any of the law will. Again, as for your agnosticism, only you know all the reasons for it you and God. It really is possible that the time for you to make your final deciscion on the matter has not yet come. Somday it will and the rest of your life will be influenced by it, it's your choice and your life.ps. God is just and holy so he does punish, i know from experience but he is also compassionate, although he could he never completely destroys and waits patiently for people to return to him.

[mickydoolittle]

Babies are as human as the mothers that birth them. Why therefore does humanity strive to believe that babies are granted an all access pass to heaven--a realm with no proof of existence anyhow?

When children die, it is of course a horribly heart wrenching event for any parent to suffer through, but let's not forget that we are mammals.

As such, what makes one think that humanity is more deserving or justified in having babies go to heaven than the puppies of your neighbors canine?

Both are infant mammals. Both died in infancy.

Wherein lies the logic in even questioning whether human babies are preferred in heaven to puppies? There is no applied logic, just as there is no applied logic in questioning if babies go to heaven.

[dutchie]

Yes, while I agree with most of you're saying here, it's a bit besides the point I made.. I was just inquiring about the ideas Christians have about this in relation to an experience I "suffered" as a child and ultimately caused me to cease believing... The point being: is your God truly the loving, kind and all forgiving entity you think it is? This is an enigma that should shake up the confidence of the most hardened of all believers, IMO.

[playmaker88]

Sorry folks, i see this entire thread as nothing more than trying to find a way out of believing in God and "thus you are not responsible" for yor actions. INFLAMATORY? intentionally so, maybe the pedophilies of another current thread begin by not thinking God cares foir children.

What has God got to do with responsibility? I don't have to find a way out of believing something that has never been proved, something that is probably just out-dated human thinking.

Are you schizophrenic because one minute you post that anyone can believe what they want and the next you're accusing us of being one step away from paedophilia? I think you'll find that is more common amongst priests and clergy who abuse their position than your average agnostic or non-believer.

I posted in another thread that were I to believe, yours seemed to be the way to go about it but now I see your true colours coming through, I feel physically sick. :ohmy:

[Moishe3rd]

My two cents, for whatever it's worth.
There are no "dead baby" dilemnas in Judaism.
According to the Torah, it actually works the other way around....
The question asked, "Why did G-d take little Jimmy?" would be explained as:
One possible answer (not the answer) is that "little Jimmy" was actually a great Sage in a previous life and he had to come back (reincarnation) to overcome some flaw in his soul. Once he completed that task, it was no longer necessary for him to be here.

There is no doctrine of salvation, as such, in Judaism. Everyone has an equal chance to do good and go the Olam Haba (the next world) when they die.
If a child passes away, they are "judged" like every other human being - based on what they have actually done, not based on some sin of their parents.

Now this is the simple explanation. Before y'all start hitting me with the "sins of the the fathers," be aware that there is a lot of Torah to go through if you want the more complex explanations.

And sorry if this is all irrelevant because the question was asked of Chrisitianity, not Judaism.
:vbroll:

[dcookcan]

According to the Torah, it actually works the other way around....
The question asked, "Why did G-d take little Jimmy?" would be explained as:
One possible answer (not the answer) is that "little Jimmy" was actually a great Sage in a previous life and he had to come back (reincarnation) to overcome some flaw in his soul. Once he completed that task, it was no longer necessary for him to be here.

Hi Moshe

Tell me where does the Torah say this? (Don't be quoting any Talmud either, that is like a Christian that says they can disobey the 4th commandment because the New Testament says so. It's all commentary.) :thumbs:

[repentantsinner]

What has God got to do with responsibility? I don't have to find a way out of believing something that has never been proved, something that is probably just out-dated human thinking.

Are you schizophrenic because one minute you post that anyone can believe what they want and the next you're accusing us of being one step away from paedophilia? I think you'll find that is more common amongst priests and clergy who abuse their position than your average agnostic or non-believer.

I posted in another thread that were I to believe, yours seemed to be the way to go about it but now I see your true colours coming through, I feel physically sick. :ohmy: Responsability: we will all be judged. It is trur God can not br proved, it is a question of faith,and in my life there have just been so many "coincidences." As for the pedophilia comment and making you sick, i relly apologize, it was not my intention to cause negetive feelings. My main concern is that there is a war going on with an enemy that seeks to get into peoples heads and influence theit actions. As in that song from the 80s "One thing leads to another" As for abusive priests, i agree with you organized religion is man made, with all the attendant abuses, power struggles lies, perversions of the truth etc. Maybe being inflammatory was uncalled for, maybe all are aware of the very real danger of the enemy. Many it's not for me to remind people, all i really know is that i've met the enemy up close and personal and know the damage that can be done to the unsuspecting.

[Moishe3rd]

Hi Moshe

Tell me where does the Torah say this? (Don't be quoting any Talmud either, that is like a Christian that says they can disobey the 4th commandment because the New Testament says so. It's all commentary.) :thumbs:
Sorry, no can do.
In Torah observant Judaism (read "Orthodox"), the Talmud is Torah. That's sort of the whole point which most non-observant Jews and most non-Jews do not understand.
In a nutshell - Moshe Rabbeinu received the Written Torah (the first five books of Moses) on Mt. Sinai; he also received the Oral Torah (everything else). The Oral Torah was passed on for generations until after the destruction of the 2nd Temple when the Rabbis began to write it down in the Mishna; the Gemora; the Commentaries; etcetera, until this day...
:sleeping:
Sorry, but you asked...

[dcookcan]

Thanks for the reply. The question was redundant as I already knew the answer. I just thought I would see if you would take a stab at it. I do understand your position, which is why I stated that Christians set aside the 4th commandment based on the New Testament.

Jews have added to (and taken awayfrom) the Torah through their oral tradition, which began being documented at approximately the same time as the New Testament. I understand the 'oral tradition' was supposed to be handed down from Moshe; however, why would he provide Written Torah that was contradicted by 'Oral Torah'. For example, the Tekhelet in the Tzitzit (one of the 613). Moshe gave the commandment, which was later set aside in Talmud because the Jews lost the so called 'mystical blue snail'. This does not make sense to me.

IMHO, both the New Testament and the Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, etc. provide commentary on the eternal written Torah. Both are historically significant documents, but neither can add to, replace, or set aside written Torah.

BTW, I will apologize in advance if you find any of these comments offensive; they are not meant to be.

[repentantsinner]

I've tried 4 times now to write a long involved post regarding you "you make me sick" post. I'm trying to make peace between us and set things right. That post was out of character of me and i really can't find any excuse for it. I've been a christian for about a month now and apparently just got on the christian high horse. It was a good thing that you brought down a peg or two. The last thing i want to do is drive people away from my posts. Believe it or not i feel i let you down somehow. It will change with time.......................peace

[playmaker88]

We all react sometimes. We all post with feeling and sometimes post things we regret ten minutes later. No grudges. :thumbs:

[repentantsinner]

You seemed to have been upset that i said "US" were "ONE STEP AWAY" from being pedophiles. I was not talking about anybodyat AO, instead a person with a mind that nobody cares about children. I meant such a person, thru years of warped thinking, rejection by adults could become a pedophile. It's a dark disgusting subject it's easy to see how suspiscion, misunderstanding could happen. I hope i've shown that the main points of contention were misunderstandings. As for talking about God and hiding from responsability i plead guilty. I'm only a month old christian and got on the high horse, talking about this is new to me, for whatever it's worth, if anything there are no grudges here, your post was a good thing.

[Moishe3rd]

Thanks for the reply....
Jews have added to (and taken awayfrom) the Torah through their oral tradition, which began being documented at approximately the same time as the New Testament. I understand the 'oral tradition' was supposed to be handed down from Moshe; however, why would he provide Written Torah that was contradicted by 'Oral Torah'. For example, the Tekhelet in the Tzitzit (one of the 613). Moshe gave the commandment, which was later set aside in Talmud because the Jews lost the so called 'mystical blue snail'. This does not make sense to me.

IMHO, both the New Testament and the Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, etc. provide commentary on the eternal written Torah. Both are historically significant documents, but neither can add to, replace, or set aside written Torah.

BTW, I will apologize in advance if you find any of these comments offensive; they are not meant to be.
Totally non offensive...

Quick thought, as I do not want to "hijack" this thread:
Your analysis is the difference between Torah observant Jews (Orthodox) and everybody else.

Torah observant Jews are a teeny tiny minority of those that identify as Jews nowadays.
However, all of the other "digressions" of the past are no longer Jewish.
Those that believe in the Oral Law and the Rabbinical tradition are the only Jews that have proven staying power.
I strongly suspect that this will remain true. (According to the Torah, G-d promises that this will remain true. :vbroll: )

[AngelTV]

This is an interesting question that leads to your own views being expressed rather than God's. To even contemplate God as damning babies to "hell" is more an excuse to discredit Christianity and it's interpretations. We all know deep inside that no rightful omnipotent force is going to condemn innocence. This is more an angered response to man's interpretations of an idealogy of how we should live our lives. In the end, there are so many contradictions in philosophical debates that it seems natural that if you wish to rebuke an Idealogy then it it is there for the taking. There is no concrete evidence with which to base Faith on. It is a choice that each person must make. I choose to believe that babies don't go to "hell" and my god abhores such thoughts. The Irish believe that Babies that die become Fairies and live their lives as God's helpers on Earth. Nice eh.
In summary, if you want to believe in a God that is flawed, and in that find an excuse not to believe, then what am I to say except your choice, your life. I would rather you just hang up the gloves and stop bashing God's name and get on with your own existence then continue to feel God to be unworthy of your faith. Or is it that denying God through your reasonings, you feel you have overcome some contradiction in your own past allowing you to move on. That you have risen above the hypocrisies and now see clearly, your path. You may end up being closer to God by doing this. Sometimes clearing the way makes it easier in the long run to find your own God. And ain't that what it is all about.

[dutchie]

Pete, to summarize your post... Believing is a choice, and the way you paint your own private picture of the almighty is up to you. Solid thinking, but is it not bringing down religion to a flexible philosophy, to suit the need of the individual? Are you then moving about solid ground, religiously speaking - stripping religion from all dogmatics? Not that I wouldn't prefer it that way, I wished all religions would take that approach, the world would be a so much more peaceful place...

[AngelTV]

Hi Dutchie, I don't know about stripping God away from a group experience. I feel we are all different and with that maybe God should be flexible to each person and yet still be encompassed by groups of like minded people. You have to be careful with individual interpretation as we know. So sometimes it is good to express your ideas of God and by that have it judged by others. Sort of like a quality check by your peers. Make sure you don't start commiting attrocities in the name of your God.

[dutchie]

Make sure you don't start commiting attrocities in the name of your God.

Sound advice. Pity no religion ever followed it... (except maybe buddhism)

[Bigsky770]

. . .But in just catching up from page #1, I can see how that was the 'end' of religion for you per se'.
. . .My opinion? Sure, I believe there is a God, BUT, your dad/and as well the Baptist Minister have no idea what they're talking about.

. . .either bungholes to Beelzebub (or) shit from Shinola, they're lost. :ohmy:

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[dutchie]

It's not that I feel traumatized or anything, Joe. Those opinions just marked a turning point in my ideas about religion. I just wanted to see if those opinions are still alive today, after more than 30 years.

[repentantsinner]

Sound advice. Pity no religion ever followed it... (except maybe buddhism)
It's interesting you should mention buddhism Dutchie, i claim myself a christian while to this day i still believe buddhism is awsome. For those who debunk "religion" buddhism, technicly is not so much a religion as a practice. Years ago i read a book that said that Jesus personified the heart of God, Buddha personified the mind of God. That set my off on buddhism for a long time. In christianity it is said heaven and earth will pass away but not one jot or title of the law will pass away. Buddhist can say nirvana and samsara will pass away but the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path will not. Buddha himself advised not to take his words as truth, but to treat them like gold, test them, scrape them and burn them in the fire to see if they make sense. Over the years buddhism, like christianity has split into different sects. I can think of Tibetan, hinayana, theravada, mahayana, and zen buddhism. This believer thinks it best to stick with the original words of the original teacher before the "religion" mutates. Surprisingly there are many, many, many similarities between the tachings of buddha and christ.FYI, i believe that God reveals himself to different peoples, culture, races, countries in ways best accepted by that region. ORGANIZED RELIGIONS so much like to have people believe their very own way is the chosen way and every body else is going to hell. If i may i will quote Jesus.. "EVERYBODY IS WELCOME AT MY FATHERS TABLE"

[dutchie]

OOoooh.... In fundamentalist Christian circles you would be now cast aside as being a religious leftie, RS.... Wow... And you ARE right about Buddhism, it is not a religion, but merely a set of directions to the path one could follow.
:respect: