Americans spying on Americans as part of their job

[MetalMilitia]

Cable installers/repairmen, exterminators, apartment managers, etc. to spy on customers for the DHS.

This will be all across the country, and it won't be for terrorism since research proves the government carries that out using proxy agents. This will be for all "crime". Imagine calling up Pizza Hut and having some kid spy on you, fill out reports for Homeland Security, and hand them in like a good little kgb/stasi agent. That's what it will be, they won't report you for "suspicious activity", they'll file reports on you no matter what you're doing whenever they come over. And they'll do it because it's now a part of their job.

Florida Citizens to Help Catch Terrorists

Fox News | July 15 2004

MIAMI - Law enforcement officials in central Florida are planning to train cable repairmen, exterminators and apartment managers to report signs of terrorism inside their clients' homes.

Supporters of the program say making private citizens the eyes and ears of the police will save lives.

But opponents, like the ACLU, call the plan 'un-American' and say it's a violation of privacy.

Operation TIPS, a similar program proposed by President Bush, was withdrawn in 2002 after critics said it would lead to racial profiling.

So far, 5,000 brochures detailing the Florida plan have been printed, and volunteers will be trained what to look for.

But Orange County officials stress that people who go through the training will be encouraged to only report what they see - not search for evidence.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125598,00.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. "

"Big Brother is watching you. "

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

-George Orwell

I guess the next time you need your carpet cleaned, you'll just accept the surveillance society. It will continue no matter who is elected.

Big cities are installing or already have rings of face and license plate scanning cameras up, they surround ever major entrance into/out of them. They no longer need tons of monitor watchers, it is being computer automated--if they want to take you down, they simply scan for your license plate. Toll roads with security checkpoints are being installed, they're choking the life out of small business. Ten years from now you'll have to go through Nazi style checkpoints. I guarantee it.

-MM- :crs:

[dutchie]

OMG, poor Americans....

Something like that would be UNTHINKABLE here...

[repentantsinner]

Maybe im being paranoid but could it be the begining stages of the powers that be playing us off against eachother. As in divide and conquer? I live not far from tampa, if it gets to that i'll let everybody know.

[Sirius]

sounds like communism to me

[Bonafide]

Having a cable installer, apt. manager, or exterminator let the officials know that they may have seen a RPG on somebodys living room floor? Or something else thats equally obvious - but not to an untrained eye. That's communism? Hmmm.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Interesting, they dont want mass public awareness about UFO's since it would breed paranoia, but this wont. :Bog:

[substand]

Having a cable installer, apt. manager, or exterminator let the officials know that they may have seen a RPG on somebodys living room floor? Or something else thats equally obvious - but not to an untrained eye. That's communism? Hmmm.

No, its not communism... its worse. Rather than just the government spying on you, now you've got people who you would have thought of as friends and neighbors doing it... Its clever. Ask your cable man to do it to get around that pesky 4th amendment. Hey, its not the government doing it, just them training and asking your freindly neighborhood pizza boy to do it. Since when did we all become criminals?

On a side note, and related to another thread, I have a hard time seeing the RNC or whitehouse having issued this as a talking point to fox news. =P

[Maleko]

This kind of thing just sickens me.

In the "Your own government doesn't trust you" thread everyone arguing for these types of surveillence keep saying, (paraphrasing) "It will never go too far", "We're doing it for the children", "It will prevent crime", etc.

Well you know what? If someone wants to commit a crime, whether it be stealing a lolly from a baby, or blowing up a Federal building, or crashing planes into 2 VERY large buildings, guess what? They are going to do it. There is very little you can do to stop them. Sure you can regulate who can buy large amounts of home heating oil, and nitrogen fertilizer, but that didn't stop McVeigh did it? You can regulate and control all the nuclear material in the world, but that didn't stop the Boy Scout from building a reactor in his garden shed. (link to a copy of the Harper's article: http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html)

My greatest fear from all this surveillance is what happens when the information gets into the wrong hands. Will the TIA act and TIPS and all the other cutesy acronyms, prevent any crimes, or will they end up stopping political movements? Let make a hypothetical situation here, and see how it plays out. Lets say all that has happened in the last few years makes this election go to an ultra-liberal (I said hypothetical :wink:). Would you Conservatives like it if all this information gathered about your habits, recreations, and day to day activities were to get into the hands of the liberal your running against in the local election? And it was used against you in said election to disallow you your right to attempt to make changes to the country you live in? Don't give me any BS that whichever group is in power won't use the TIA or TIPS info to keep power, I hope your old enough to realize that those in power, will do anything within their power to keep it.

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Lord Acton

[Conservative Front]

It seems this is the citizens choice or not too "spy". I don't really see a problem with this its like America's most wanted. It's not like everybody is going to be doing this It's just the people who decide too do it. I know if I say a room full of Arabs with bombs strapped around them Id report it too the authorities. This is no different then any crime prevention the only reason you seem to think it is. Is because the word Terrorist was added too it.

[substand]

This is no different then any crime prevention the only reason you seem to think it is. Is because the word Terrorist was added too it.

Actually, you make a VERY good point... I mean that sincerely... it stumped me for a while and I was literally about to ask the board if they could come up with examples of how it is different, because at first, I couldn’t. I cannot explain the sincerity with which I say that... I know that often I am very sarcastic, but in this case, I am not being so. I really did think it a very good point, it did stump me, and I was about to ask an open question to how it is different.

Honestly, if I went to someone's house and saw a dead baby (or evidence of some other crime) on the floor, I sure as hell would report it to the authorities, whether or not they had asked or trained me to. I personally think training them to do so is going a little too far, but I don’t wish to argue that currently. AMW and entities affiliated with the police in general often ask us for help in catching criminals... so, why should this be any different? It is probably one of the most profound questions/statements you've ever said here that I've read...

But I'm going to say why it is different:

1) when we are asked for help, it is normally when there is already a suspect, even if he hasn’t been convicted (and you probably won’t have free access to his person, houses, papers, and/or effects). In the case of a cable guy spy, you are not even a suspect.

2) the government can declare you an “enemy combatant” and take away all your rights based on this. For example, I’ll use something off the Dept of Justice Website (at http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/subs/s_articles.htm)



For Bush opponents, Jose Padilla, an American citizen picked up on American soil and detained as an al-Qaida operative for the last year without access to an attorney, represents the clearest possible case of the administration's evisceration of civil rights. And it is truly a hard case, turning on the question of what rights an American enemy combatant should have in a war in which America is the battleground, and the enemy, wearing no uniform, may carry a U.S. passport.


Indeed, it is a hard case. Perhaps one that may be justified, but what happens when it isn’t justified? Our legal system was deliberately set up as hard to convict and hold actual criminals because of the value we place on freedom of innocent people (among other reasons such as not being able to jail political enemies like king’s used to)… the patriot act, especially combined with unwarranted searches by citizens acting on behalf of the govt (or at its request) and things of the sort certainly help to demolish that.



Nevertheless, the judge ordered that counsel be provided to help Padilla make his case for release,


exception to the rule in this case. Normally we wouldn’t need a judge to tell us this… and he’s been imprisoned for over a year and a half (if I remember correctly) WITHOUT that right. If he is innocent, they’ve taken away over a year from his life and cannot repay it… this is why we are granted the right to speedy trials.



This much about Jose Padilla is undisputed: a Chicago gang-banger convicted of murder before age 18, he then embellished his rap sheet with a Florida conviction for weapons possession. In May 2002, government agents arrested him at O'Hare airport coming in from Pakistan.

What happened in between the gun conviction and the airport arrest is in dispute.


and they can hold him indefinitely for it?

And here is how they justify it being “ok”:


In fact, as the judge presiding over Padilla's habeas petition acknowledged, the Sixth Amendment and Fifth Amendment guarantees of due process afford a right to counsel only in criminal trials, not in a habeas corpus action. And the government is not prosecuting Padilla as a criminal. It is detaining him as an enemy combatant--a historical prerogative of the executive during war. Only if the government decides to try Padilla as an al-Qaida conspirator would he then have the right to counsel.


So in their operational view, they can hold you forever on suspicion, without proving anything, as long as they call you an enemy combatant.

So if you are like me, I have been trying to learn Arabic (to speak with my dad’s side of the family who don’t know English, do research, and hopefully join the CIA to help in the War on Terror eventually), I have been trying to find al qaida and other terrorist sites, and I enjoy reading about how easy it would be to make bombs, in hopes of finding ways to survive a bomb, or destroy one. I am also interested in visiting places in the middle east, including going undercover with terrorist networks to learn about it, do research, and hopefully help my country in some way… I am very serious about ALL of that, and while my “goals” may be optimistic and more than I can accomplish, I still have them.

Now all that evidence, coupled with my Islamic/Arabic background by family, certainly would lead one (say, my apartment maintenance man) to think I might be a terrorist. If he turns me in, they can hold me as long as they want. And I can’t do anything about it. See why there is a difference? In the non-terrorist/patriot act world, I have not committed any crime, and I would not be even taken to jail for such things, but the way it is now, I quite possibly could, and I would be afforded very little legal remedy for my situation.

[Sirius]

I can guarantee you if the cable guy, or anybody comes spying into my home, there gonna get beat on, alot.

[aware]

The idea of people spying on each other shouldn't surprise anyone
during these times we live in. People are scared. With a bit of either
overt or covert prompting from the Govt. or whoever applicable;
the most afraid will probably be more likley to be the most watchful,
but with the negative side-effect of potentially seeing or hearing what
they want to. That's often what people do. With that said, I find
it very easy to believe that there are those out there doing this but
please people don't mistake every hunter for a deer.
Do remember though that you can get things over on people using
often enough using tactics that play on FEAR and/or SUBTLETY.
I think subtley is the focus point though. Think of it as the frog in
the boiling pot scenario.

[prezhorusin04]

i think they are just pushing us to see how far we go until we break..Our morals and perceptions of reality break..

Road Check Points, cameras at stopsigns and crowded streets, RFID,tag your kids, eat our genetically modified food, Assassinations,spy on your neighbor, the War, election fraud, Chem-Trails, Prisoner Abuse, Skull and Bones and other secret societies....

So much of it is all right out on the table and in front of our faces..It's just a matter of how much we are going to let them get away with..And they are getting away with alot..

The more they get away with, the more they will attempt..

[Defiant Noquisi]

That reminds me of the gas prices. Jack them up really high so that when they do drop by 20 cents a gallon, it gives the appearance of being lower but its still 30 cents higher.

Either that or its a fright scenario to see who they can manipulate. Maybe if we are so afraid of their power we wont argue with them.