Whats the difference between Israel and... [Archive]

Moishe3rd

Jul 18th, 2004, 3:49 PM

Actually they do...

concentration camp n.

1)A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions.
2)A place or situation characterized by extremely harsh conditions

Since they have fenced off and walled in areas where military controls crossing(it is my understanding that they are to be or have, taking them down) and control where and when Palestinians can come and go, they have controlled supplies and neccesities going in and out, controlled the water and utilities and have resorted to bulldozing homes even with civilians inside, this does qualify Israel as having concentration camps.

They also have supported a concentration camp leader regardless of the fact that he commited crimes against humanity, because the prisoners were Germans. They dont recognize crimes against humanity as long as the crimes werent commited against Jews.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/KillerMorel.html

http://www.hoffman-info.com/hypocrisy.html

DN,
Bad stuff.
Please stop.
Your http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/KillerMorel.html is an article which states:
While it may sound like a novel or a made-for-TV movie, in fact that much of the story is true. But did Solomon Morel actually exact that revenge, brutalizing German prisoners under his command? Or did he and others fantasize it? That's the subject of an emotional historical debate and an ongoing investigation by the Polish government.
This has nothing to do with Israel or even most Jews. It is not even a "fact." It is, as stated conjecture.

Your article:http://www.hoffman-info.com/hypocrisy.html
states:
A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel. Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to the statute of limitations, the Polish news agency PAP reported.

The Israeli government wouldn't even extradite a child murderer from the United States. It is simply against Israeli Law. Many countries have laws I disagree with, including Israel. Including the United States.
That does not make them evil countries.

Why do you insist on condemning Israel using the actions of one or two individual Jews as an example?
What do you have against Israel?

(If you would like to use brutality against Palestinians, could you please cite a source? Please???)

humanhybrid

Jul 18th, 2004, 4:37 PM

I have already gave you data, and their is no reason to argue because we both know what is happening as well all of us here at this forum, does that make us antisemetic here at this forum? Do you condone the actions of Isreal to take back the land at what ever cost? and then build walls to keep the "terrorists" out! Is that a YES or No? Ya I can drag out info regarding all that is happening, but then Id be antisemetic. I wouldnt want to give you the chance at it. good day my human freind that is a jew.

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 18th, 2004, 6:07 PM

DN,
Bad stuff.
Please stop.
Your http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/KillerMorel.html is an article which states:
This has nothing to do with Israel or even most Jews. It is not even a "fact." It is, as stated conjecture. Why is the truth "bad stuff" when it is about Jews but it isnt when its about Palenstinians or really, anybody else? Did not Israel refuse to extradite Morel? Yes, they did so that is false that they had nothing to do with it. Why is that? Because in their laws what he did was not a crime. ALL TRUE However, you are missing the most biggest and biased of points in regards to Isreal.....

When a crime is committed against a Jew, it is condemned, as it should be. BUT if a Jew commits the same or similar crime, it is not a crime. How convenient that Israel had the forethought to protect its people like that. Why is it that it is "okay" for all the leaders of the Jewish concentration camps to be extradited and convicted, while the Jewish leaders of German concentration camps cannot because its "bad"? Do you not see the bias in this? Do you not see how Israel acts like a spoiled child when it doesnt get its way? If a Nazi cages a bunch of Jews in a ghetto, its a crime. But if a Jew cages a bunch of Palestinians in a ghetto they are bending over backward? Come on!

Why do you insist on condemning Israel using the actions of one or two individual Jews as an example?
What do you have against Israel? I dont know where you get "one or two individual Jews". When Israel holds itself to the same standards as it does other countries, I will change my views. That goes for ANY country (which also includes the US) that thinks arrogantly of itself while commiting crimes against humanity. However, again this is a Jewish related thread. Perhaps if you would read my posts in other threads regarding the BS that the US commits, you wont be so quick to ask me why you think I am singling out Israel. In fact, if it wasnt for the exemplary examples the US has provided to Israel regarding racism and fencing in people it wants rid of, I seriously dont think Israel would be better at it than the US. Israel not only used the US as an example, they did it "better".

(If you would like to use brutality against Palestinians, could you please cite a source? Please???) I already have, and from Jewish sources no less in the other thread. Ask HH even, weve gone at it like two cats but my opinion remains the same, no country has the right nor deserves to subjugate another with terrorism and acts of atrocity, period. Israel is a rogue, terrorist nation and if you cant take the evidence out there which is easy enough to find on your own (since myself and others have), we cant help you understand what you choose to not see. I dont base my opinions through religion or what I think. I base them on the evidence I look up, hopefully from all sides and compare it to history. Just because the Nazi's committed a horrible crime against the Jews does not give Jews the right to subject the Palestinians to almost the same.

The difference between Israel and Nazi Germany isnt concentrations camps. Its that Israel doesnt have gas chambers.

Conservative Front

Jul 19th, 2004, 12:41 AM

Heres my comparsion chart you be the judge:

which (X)=Supporter and ( )= no

Discrimination against race(s) and culture
---------------------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

Committed mass genocide against a group of people(s)
----------------------------------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

Launched preemptive attacks against neighboring nations
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

Had a Youthful organization that teached hate
---------------------------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

Had concentration camps
-------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

Had extermination camps
-------------------------
Nazi Germany (X)|Isreal ( )

So based on this comparsion chart Id say no Israel isn't near what Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany was a National Socialist (dictator fascism) where as Israel is a Democracy. Nazi Germany discriminated based on race,religion,etc... There are equal rights in Israel. So you get the picture.

and on a fun little side note, Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for WWII. so ironic enough the germans "purification" only made the Jews grow stronger and developed a 1st rate country.

stewey

Jul 19th, 2004, 1:40 AM

Comparing Isreal to Nazi Germany is like comparing Palestine to Al Queda. AKA stupid and ignorant. Palestine and Isreal both have bad seeds and both have good seeds, saying that either one is "more wrong" or "more right" is ignorant. A large number of both sides want to simply co exist in peace.

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 20th, 2004, 1:33 AM

Which is why I bring up negatives regarding Israel. People believe that they are innocent of doing anything when in actually they are not much different than those who have tried to subject them before. You would think that they would be more responsible in the things they do but no, instead Sharon will throw tantrums and retaliate to anything against him. No one is paying attention to, or learning from the past anymore. Instead they move blindly about like it never happened. Out of sight, out of mind. If you dont see it, it doesnt exist.

The world will find out soon enough what an ugly, festering wound Israel is and it will be to late by the time they realize the infection will never go away. Israel is a schoolyard bully that is going to get its arrogant ass whupped someday.

Its too bad that the real Jewish people, the ones who arent blind and who can acknowledge the truth of their history and move forward in a much more rational and responsible way are looked down upon because of Sharon and Co. tantrums.

bbbv3.5

Jul 20th, 2004, 12:41 PM

ConspiracyTheorist

Jul 20th, 2004, 1:10 PM

Isreal did not start a WW yet...Isreal did not try to get rid of every JEW (they are Jews). Isreal is in the middle of a desert.....Isreal does not have as much power in the world as Germany did?? Reason why it took many nations to take Isreal down.

That is the whole thing, isn't it? They haven't started a World War YET. I agree that they aren't trying to get rid of every Jew. But they are expansionists who are slowly and surely are and continuing to move into Palestine, bulldozing peoples homes, and ensuring they never attain real power. They have made the Palestine nation look like a ghetto.

Israel has been reacting to the persecution of Jewish people since WWII. Hitler expanded because he believed that the Aryan Race was supreme, and eserved to have more land. Hitler used the Jews as scapegoats, which was just a dirty tactic, but it united the German people.

What has Israel done? They have been as much of an instigator as a victim in this Middle East crisis. They have warred with a neighbor over land, anf have laid a good chunk of the blame against Arab nations.

The Nazis fought for the ideal of a supreme race, and Israel is fighting over land and religion. Which is worse?

Moishe3rd

Jul 20th, 2004, 2:27 PM

Okey dokey :grin More fun with Facts!
But first, I'll let you respond, if you want?

That is the whole thing, isn't it? They haven't started a World War YET. I agree that they aren't trying to get rid of every Jew. But they are expansionists who are slowly and surely are and continuing to move into Palestine, bulldozing peoples homes, and ensuring they never attain real power. They have made the Palestine nation look like a ghetto.

How? When? Who? Where? Please explain how Israel has made the Palestine (not a nation or, pardon me, what is your definition of nation) look like a ghetto?
Please?

Israel has been reacting to the persecution of Jewish people since WWII. Hitler expanded because he believed that the Aryan Race was supreme, and eserved to have more land. Hitler used the Jews as scapegoats, which was just a dirty tactic, but it united the German people.

What has Israel done? They have been as much of an instigator as a victim in this Middle East crisis. They have warred with a neighbor over land, anf have laid a good chunk of the blame against Arab nations.

Please explain who Israel has instigated war against? Please tell me what neighbor they have warred with over land?
Please?

The Nazis fought for the ideal of a supreme race, and Israel is fighting over land and religion

How? When? Where? Who? What? Anything??? :confused:

. Which is worse?

Offhand, I'd say Nazi Germany. Just a thought.
But I am very sincere in my desire to have you back up your claims with some hard evidence.
I really, really am.
Thank you.

Conservative Front

Jul 21st, 2004, 12:15 AM

The bulldozing is only through the gaza strip (and you failed to mention the palestines suicide bombers) and unfornetally peace there looks bleak. One of the nations is going to have to give it up and it doesn't look like either is willing to set down there arms. So don't mistake all of palestine with the Gaza Strip.

Techinally if you go back far enough in history where Israel is now. It belonged to the jews they we're forced out by occuping Arab nations. and they later returned to there homeland and reclaimed in through 2 major conflicts. (1 nation fought back 3 Arab nations and armys without support)

The nazi's fought for World conquest and race purification. Israel isn't fighting for race supremacy (or religion supremacy as it may be) They are fighting the occupiers of what (was) rightfully theres they just took it back.

---end response to consip. theorist---

And i'm going to say Nazi Germany was certainly worse. The wanted World Conquest and Racial Purification. Conquering Europe was not enough for them (don't forget Nazi Germany declared war against the US) They conquered all of Western Europe (with the exception of Great Britian but had it not been for American intervention they would have been conquered just look up "black outs") They took over almost all of eastern europe pushing the Russians out of stalingrad. So when you really compare the two Nazi Germany is by far the evil. Whereas Israel has a rather small chunk of land, doesn't commit genocide, isn't thriving for World Conquest... but you be the judge.

bbbv3.5

Jul 21st, 2004, 10:17 AM

i ahte it when people put thing in dark red...

Emerald_Dragon

Jul 21st, 2004, 2:02 PM

>Why do you insist on condemning Israel using the actions of
>one or two individual Jews as an example?

because its a rogue nation waging war on the west, by engaging in deceptive, false flag operations? creating Al-Qaeda cells in Jordan and Palestine? laughing as the towers burned? commenting that we are its puppet? funding our politicians to vote pro-Israel and sending money to support a terrorist state? killing Aussie's and Kiwis for their passports? spying on us, getting caught, and sent home? calling a wall a 'fence'?

i don't know. they seem to be the source of many international problems.

>Discrimination against race(s) and culture
>---------------------------------------
>Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

i guess you're not aware of the anti-Palestinian marriage laws.

>Committed mass genocide against a group of people(s)
>----------------------------------------------------
>Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

i guess the Palestinians and their bulldozed homes don't count as a people.

>Launched preemptive attacks against neighboring nations
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

bombing their neighbors don't count as preemptive attacks?
letsee, the Iraqi nuclear reactor, the Syrian airbases, and soon, the Iranian nuclear reactor.

>Had a Youthful organization that teached hate
>---------------------------------------------
>Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

no, they have better. www.camera.org, the MEMEA (sp?), and then there's U.S. mass media.

>Had concentration camps
>-------------------------
>Nazi Germany (X)|Israel ( )

why would they need any? they just shoot people and kids that get in their way?
or kidnap them in other countries and jail them (Vanunu).

>Isreal did not start a WW yet...

ever hear the term, "By way of deception, you will wage war"?

>The bulldozing is only through the gaza strip
>(and you failed to mention the palestines suicide bombers)

and you're forgetting that the Palestinians are not as well armed and have to resort to more primitive means to retaliate. Who do you think started the hate? the natives? or the conquerors?

Conservative Front

Jul 21st, 2004, 11:02 PM

The anti-palestian marriage laws, doesn't discriminate. It'd be like comparing a ban on Gay Marriage in America, that doesn't discriminate.Israel is Jewish Nation therefor there marriage laws would naturally match there religion.

I don't think that's genocide. lets not forget the palestines suicide bomb Israels busses killing twice the amount a bulldozer would. Last I checked Genocide was the Mass Murder of a group of people. well I don't see any mass murder going on unless of course you count the Palestinians who attack soft targets and take out upwards of 100's of people at a time. and if an Arab/Muslim happens to fall victim of the bombing there still brought to the Israeli hospital i'd love too see that in Palestine. (VIS-VERSA)

Whats worse a Pre-emptive Airstrike from Israel or a Pre-Emptive nuclear strike from one of the Roque nations you mentioned?

Is this the only source you have on MEMEA? Id like to see more on it...

Ironic enough I read the exact same thing you mentioned in the World Church of the Creators "Creativity" and National Skinheads Front Booklet. seems to be a consiparcy amongst the Racist communitys of the world.

Yes, I've heard that term. however Israel is a pretty smart country if they waged a war that would lead world in to a WW then America would cut off its funding and Ammunitions therefor WW was just prevented.

I'm going to go with the Natives on this one. look at the 7-Day war and the War of 1948 I believe it was. that should give you some insight on the subject.

---end response to emerald dragon---

DontBeAfraid

Jul 22nd, 2004, 5:06 AM

Letting one group of people do something while preventing another group of people from doing that same thing because of their background is discrimination CF.

Conservative Front

Jul 22nd, 2004, 11:05 PM

When you take discrimination out of context and completely blow it out of proportion then yeah I guess you have a point.

---end response to dontbeafraid---

DontBeAfraid

Jul 23rd, 2004, 4:13 AM

That is not blowing anything out of context, discrimination is what it is.

VegasRonin

Jul 23rd, 2004, 7:35 PM

Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? Most women can't drive.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? Most women can't go to school past a certain point.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? Most women can't vote.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? The government tells women how to dress.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? Rape is used as discipline for women.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? I've seen a woman beat with a stick cause her veil fell off.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? I knew a Saudi soldier who killed his own sister cause she went out in public without a veil and a Burka.
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state?
Would you want your Mother or Sister raised in a Western form of Government or an Islamic state? I know I don't

Emerald_Dragon

Jul 24th, 2004, 7:17 PM

> lets not forget the palestines suicide bomb Israels busses killing twice the amount a bulldozer would.

are those suicide bombers pre-emptive attacks? or retaliations? a bulldozer doesn't kill people outright, it could take hours, lookup Rachel Corrie.

What would happen to you if your house were bulldozed? And all your neighbors? where would you go? live in a camp built by the UN? And if someone said you could get back at your conquerors/oppressors with explosives? who is expanding over there in the ME? Israel? Palestine? Look at the maps from 1945 til present day and tell me who you think is the cause of violence? Does violence breed violence?

And just what were those concentration camps circa WWII all about? They did gas a few hundred people, experiment on hundreds of others, but left millions more to starve to death. Now, is that genocide? Coral-ing people and letting them all waste away? Howbout removing them from their homes to live off the land, the desert? Is that genocide? How many Palestinians have lost their homes, relative to Israelis having to give up their homes to the original inhabitants?

>Whats worse a Pre-emptive Airstrike from Israel or
>a Pre-Emptive nuclear strike from one of the Roque nations you mentioned?

well, since we've already seen pre-emptive strikes from Israel to its neighboring countries, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel were to launch the first nuke to usher in WWIII. In order to develop the bomb, you have to have the technology. Right now, India/Pakistan have it, among the 3rd world nations. They all get their expertise and material from countries that already have them. Where do you think Iran is going to get its knowledge from? Its schools? :grin Its getting it from EU nations, in trade. Where did Iraq get its nuclear reactor? France. Where do you think they're going to find scientists with the knowhow to make a bomb? using a recipe from the internet? :grin

>Is this the only source you have on MEMEA? Id like to see more on it...

Moishe would be a better resource on MEMEA links. They seem to be the only ones she reads.

>seems to be a consiparcy amongst the Racist communitys of the world.

you really have to read both sides of an issue before you can craft your own opinion on it. alot of what we were taught to believe is just that, "taught" to believe. the real learning comes from our own ventures. Did I tell you I was seriously republican when I graduated college? now i seem to be democrat. but i believe, i'm more "Independant", because both sides are liars. Both spin it to their favor to garner support. I'm after the truth. The unofficial story, behind the spin. I don't care for partisan politics, I just want to know 'what' and 'why'.

>Yes, I've heard that term. however Israel is a pretty smart country if they waged a war
>that would lead world in to a WW then America would cut off its funding
>and Ammunitions therefor WW was just prevented.

i agree. and i also believe they know that, so....nuclear blackmail. Extortion. War by deception. False flag ops. By any means necessary to get others to do their fighting for them. Iraq. Who benefits? Not us, we have more to worry about.

Conservative Front

Jul 25th, 2004, 12:47 AM

It's not discrimination, Marriage in America is defined between a Man and Women no argument there. and in Israel it's defined as A Jew and A Jew or what have you. Not discrimination now if they said they where aloud in Builds,House,To live there,etc... or had them as slaves then that would be discrimination but just because they can't marry thats not discrimination.

---end response to HH---

The Suicide bombers are pre-emptive. and I've read all about Rachie Corrie and I don't know which opinion to believe about it. I've read several from White Power sources to Left and Right wing sources about it. But if you want to talk about slow deaths what about the Jewish people(s) who suffer when a bomb goes off preemptively and they have to first send in a **robot to clear the bomb off the suicide bomber to make sure its safe for the medics to go in and clear the area that would be slow and agonizing...

Israel was preemptively striked. The U.S. and Europe gave the Jewish people refuge there and most of the Middle East didn't seem to care at the time but then the war broke out and The understrenghted under armed Israeli's managed to win that should have ended the violence right there and then.

How many israelis have lost there lifes due to Palestine suicide bombers because they decided to go to work that day? Why can't the palestines get out of the Gaza Strip? You claim to support human rights but you show no sympathy for the jews why shouldn't they have there native land back after being prescuted and executed in Germany? If the United States didn't back Israel would you support there actions then?

Israel Wouldn't launch a preemptive nuclear strike, simply because they know the reprucutions would be horrid they would lose the support of the U.S. and its allies theres no way Israel would launch first. And I'm not really sure what you where getting at with the other countrys obtaining nuclear material.

Theres always a spin on what people beliefs yes you can be indepenet but chances are you still lean either left or right. You can form you're own a opinions about everything but there still going to be based on what you believe is right, so in a sense if you look at most issues and decide that X is right Y is wrong you're still going to slighty spin them either right or left.

**source: History Channels inside the mind of a Suicide bomber.

---end response to Emerald Dragon---

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 26th, 2004, 9:39 PM

and if an Arab/Muslim happens to fall victim of the bombing there still brought to the Israeli hospital i'd love too see that in Palestine. (VIS-VERSA) Please tell me where there is a hospital? Why are innocent Arabs being turned away at the checkpoints if they are supposedly being treated?

I'm going to go with the Natives on this one. look at the 7-Day war Im looking but I aint found it yet. Im wondering who really needs insight on this subject. :sleep:

Conservative Front

Jul 26th, 2004, 10:37 PM

I wasn't refereing to check points. I was refereing to Arabs caught in a suicide bombers blast in israel territory the will treat them at an Israel Hospital.

My mistake it was the 6-Day war. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

---end response to defiant---

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 27th, 2004, 7:48 AM

I wasn't refereing to check points. I was refereing to Arabs caught in a suicide bombers blast in israel territory the will treat them at an Israel Hospital. Which only goes to prove my further distaste for the politics of Israel. Its ok to treat Arab victims of bombings since they might provide valuable information for Israeli's to use against them. However pregnant women get held up at checkpoints since her giving birth might produce another Palestinian and they wouldnt want that now would they?

Conservative Front

Jul 27th, 2004, 10:46 PM

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 27th, 2004, 11:14 PM

Reverse you're situation and you're going to get the same story just a different chorus. The arabs would turn down an israeli also. the difference is if an Arab is a bomb blast victim the Israelis will treat them and care for them where the palestinies would leave them for dead. Well gee CF, consider what little resources they have available to them. Since their hospitals are bombed out what choice would they have? Since they cant go anywhere lest getting run over or mowed down how could they help anyone let alone themselves? It appears you see nothing wrong with bomb victims being saved but babies cant. Oh yeah, they arent having abortions.

Moishe3rd

Jul 27th, 2004, 11:51 PM

Which only goes to prove my further distaste for the politics of Israel. Its ok to treat Arab victims of bombings since they might provide valuable information for Israeli's to use against them. However pregnant women get held up at checkpoints since her giving birth might produce another Palestinian and they wouldnt want that now would they?
Visit Israel. Hell, visit the West Bank and Gaza. Talk to some Palestinians. Hell, talk to some Palestinians that live here.
Your view of the current situation between Israel and its Arab/Moslem enemies is sick. As in bizarre. But, I suspect you know that.

Explaining the Arab-Israeli conflict through numbers
by Dennis Prager

For the many readers who have requested a brief synopsis of the moral arguments in the Arab-Israeli conflict, I offer the following list of numerical data.

Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700

Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0

Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1

Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000

Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000

Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1

Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1

Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3

Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0

Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1

Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands

Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1

Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90

Number of Jewish countries: 1

Number of Jewish democracies: 1

Number of Arab countries: 19

Number of Arab democracies: 0

Number of Arab women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": thousands

Number of Jewish women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": 0

Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0

Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited

Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000

Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0

Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human rights violations: 0

Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26

Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175

Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97

Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4

Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16

Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0

Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322

Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0

Percentage of U.N. votes in which Arab countries voted with the United States in 2002: 16.6

Percentage of U.N. votes in which Israel voted with the United States in 2002: 92.6

Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who defend Zionism and Israel: approximately 1.

Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who believe in diversity on college campuses: 100

Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0

Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100

Number of Muslims in the world: more than 1 billion

Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 28th, 2004, 12:03 AM

Talk to some Palestinians. Hell, talk to some Palestinians that live here. I have. I have also talked to former Israeli's but then you would ignore that as you have ignored where I got most of my learning from...Jewish people.

Your view of the current situation between Israel and its Arab/Moslem enemies is sick. As in bizarre. But, I suspect you know that. No, my view is realistic and researched on both sides. I am no where near as sick as thinking bulldozing innocent people is justified such as you do.

humanhybrid

Jul 28th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Moishe3rd said.

Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1 Now that is an outright lie as they are terrorizing the palastinian people on their land today.

Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700 Does that mean that they will kick out the palastinian people and then build walls around the city?
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97 Do you think that any of these resolutions are valid and if so, why my Jewish human. :yikes:

Moishe3rd

Jul 28th, 2004, 5:06 AM

Moishe3rd said.
Now that is an outright lie as they are terrorizing the palastinian people on their land today.
Does that mean that they will kick out the palastinian people and then build walls around the city? Do you think that any of these resolutions are valid and if so, why my Jewish human. :yikes:

:sardonic:

:bs:

mickydoolittle

Jul 28th, 2004, 7:21 AM

I am no where near as sick as thinking bulldozing innocent people is justified such as you do.

I guess I'm sick enough then, DN. I totally believe that ignorant wench had it coming.

She deserved to be bulldozed.

Why ppl think her death should be avenged with some sort of court ordered justice is beyond me--she got her justice: her death. She couldn't have asked for it more blatantly if she'd been wearning a sign asking to be run over. She didn't belong there anyhow, one less idiot to muq things up.

Yeah, I know, I run-on and on about the same old tired crap ad nausea.

humanhybrid

Jul 28th, 2004, 10:33 AM

Moishe3rd :Llol: :lol: Yes you think that you can ignore human rights just because your jewish. Notice that I say responsible! :nono: There will be no forgivness for YOU and the people of isreal that support terrorist tactics to exploit land of another human. HUMAN in the body of a jew who hides behind terrorism and god as an excuse to kill and to exploit. As jesus said HATE the sin not the sinner. SINNER Moishe3rd. Been sleeping well lately? Of course you have. good day!

Conservative Front

Jul 29th, 2004, 12:11 AM

Wow, that was brilliant Moishe.

---end response to Moishe---

It's there own fault they have lack or resources they get bombed because they strike preemptively once again thats not my fault nor the jewish peoples fault for retaliation. and why the hell did you bring abortion into a debate about israel? :ohmy:

---end response to defiant---

dutchie

Jul 29th, 2004, 4:12 AM

Dear Moishe3rd,

Up to this moment I have been hesitating to post in this thread, but your last response, Moishe3rd, was so typical of the Middle Eastern situation, that I felt the need to step in.

Not that I think my response has any sense at all, because you have shown such utter rigidity and disrespect towards any point of view that differs from your own, that I wonder why the hell you bother to post on a discussion forum anyway - you have no wish to debate, nor do you have any desire to learn from the postings from other people: you just want to see your own truth, without any regard for factual events, even if they can be backed up by hard evidence. I believe the English word for that is plain stubborn.

In your world there are two colours. Black and White. It is this attitude which is very common among Israeli people, also among young people. If you are not FOR Israel, well then you are AGAINST Israel, there is just no space between those.

In your posts I have detected a constant mixing up from the problems. You confuse Arab World vs Israel constantly with the Muslim vs Jewish stance, while in fact these are two different problems altogether.

In WWII Holland was occupied by the Germans. They deported almost the entire Jewish community to the death camps. The entire Jewish quarter of Amsterdam was emptied, and I have lost several members of my family there. The atrocities commited to the Jews have been baffling and still shake the hearts and minds of those who first acquaint themselves with that period (like my children). Of course I will not compare the behaviour of Nazi Germany towards the Jews with the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestines - the reasons behind this behaviour are completely different.

Still, I would have expected the Jews to have LEARNED something from their terrible experience during WWII. Being treated with total disrespect for the human dignity or life, you would expect them to show wisdom in handling humans themselves.

I do not deny the Jews the right to their own state. In fact I believe they DO have the right to their own state. I do not hate Jews. By Jewish law, I qualify to be a Jew myself, and I do not hate myself at all. The Jews have been persecuted and kicked around the world throughout the centuries. It began with the Romans kicking them out of Israel, and antisemitism has been following the Jews around for as long as history can recall it.

After WWII there was no state of Israel. Palestine was in fact occupied by the British, and was not much more than a stretch of desert. But there was an entire people living there, an Arab nation called Palestines. They were there for the better part of 2,000 years.

And then came the Jews. Battered, slaughtered off, emprisoned in death camps, that horrid experience still fresh in their memory. You would expect them to treat the Arabs in Israel better than they themselves were treated during the war. They did not. The Palestines were treated as second rate citizens from day one. They did not get access to decent jobs, got kicked off land they had owned for generations. The Palestines revolted. Backed up by nations that had both racial as religious ties with them. I agree it was not a smart move of these countries to attack Israel the way they did, but the fact remains the Palestines felt they had no other option than to strike back at an occupying force.

If Israel there and then had handled this problem in a humane and Arab-friendly way, and had they not expanded their borders time after time and colonized land that did not belong to them in the first place, I truly believe this conflict had not been where it is now.

During the last forty years hatred has been willfully cultivated in the hearts and minds of the people on both sides. The Jews hate the Palestines because they WANT to hate them. The Palestines hate the Jews, because they WANT to hate them. Both sides do not make any SERIOUS attempt at coming to a durable peace agreement, because both completely lost track of the causes behing the conflict. Time after time, negociators have failed to bring the parties together, because it ALWAYS ended with both parties making ridiculous demands.

To tell you the truth, seeing this rigidity in your posts once more, has killed the last hope in me to ever see a serious desire in Jews to make peace. I do not know how it is for the Palestines in Israel, but I dare say there MUST be parents there that cry their eyes out because they do not have any hope of raising kids in a peaceful world. I do not know what your age is, or if you are a parent yourself, but if you are, you would know exactly what I mean, and what the emotions are about that, when your own offspring is concerned.

I feel both Jews and Palestines have come to a point where they should admit they DESERVE to be in the horror that is called War. As long as there is no wish for peace, peace will never come.

There should be a desire to stop looking for the party that is to blame for the conflict, that is just a plain waste of valuable time. They should be looking for a way to STOP all of this. I know you won't agree, but I personally believe that EVERY life lost is one too many.

YOU Moishe3rd, are the living proof that my hope is vain.

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 1st, 2004, 3:55 PM

That was an incredibly moving post Dutchie. I am not known for diplomacy and have tried very hard to discuss this without turning it into a hatefest. I have no respect for people that are unable to see this situation for what it is nor advocate more unjustified death and murder just because they got their rear ends kicked before.

And I have even less respect for a green dressing poof who should know what hate is all about while advocating it. :bs:

dutchie

Aug 1st, 2004, 4:52 PM

Thanks. It did come from the heart.

mickydoolittle

Aug 1st, 2004, 7:40 PM

Mods,

Perhaps you should remind HH to not be anti-semitic on the boards.

That behaviour needs to end now as it has been allowed for far too long.

Conservative Front

Aug 1st, 2004, 11:11 PM

We finally agree on something Micky. (both of you're post including the one about the girl who got bulldozed)

---end response to mickydoolittle---

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 1st, 2004, 11:43 PM

You might want to check this out first before you go further....

http://forums.armageddononline.org/showthread.php?t=1635&page=10&pp=25

humanhybrid

Aug 3rd, 2004, 10:22 PM

Perhaps you should remind HH to not be anti-semitic on the boards.
So let these humans who call themselves a jew, continue without critisizing their human rights violations against the palistinian people. If you think Ill stand by and condone what Isreal is doing then "MODERATORS BAN ME NOW"

Moishe3rd

Aug 5th, 2004, 12:40 PM

dutchie wrote:

And then came the Jews. Battered, slaughtered off, emprisoned in death camps, that horrid experience still fresh in their memory. You would expect them to treat the Arabs in Israel better than they themselves were treated during the war. They did not. The Palestines were treated as second rate citizens from day one. They did not get access to decent jobs, got kicked off land they had owned for generations. The Palestines revolted. Backed up by nations that had both racial as religious ties with them. I agree it was not a smart move of these countries to attack Israel the way they did, but the fact remains the Palestines felt they had no other option than to strike back at an occupying force.

If Israel there and then had handled this problem in a humane and Arab-friendly way, and had they not expanded their borders time after time and colonized land that did not belong to them in the first place, I truly believe this conflict had not been where it is now.

During the last forty years hatred has been willfully cultivated in the hearts and minds of the people on both sides. The Jews hate the Palestines because they WANT to hate them. The Palestines hate the Jews, because they WANT to hate them. Both sides do not make any SERIOUS attempt at coming to a durable peace agreement, because both completely lost track of the causes behing the conflict. Time after time, negociators have failed to bring the parties together, because it ALWAYS ended with both parties making ridiculous demands.

dutchie,
I appreciate that you sincerely believe what you wrote.
The problem I have is that you view it as fact. And, particularly what I quoted above is not fact. It is fiction.
I seem harsh because I believe in facts. I believe in examining events and attitudes based on history and based on what really happens.
The article I posted by Dennis Prager deals with facts.
Just to repeat a simple fact:

Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1
Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90
This is a simple statistic. It simply says that the Palestinians believe that murdering innocent people (any people, not only Israelis and/or Jews) is a good thing in their struggle to eradicate Israel.
And it says that Israelis believe that murdering innocent people is a bad thing.

When you take it back to 1948, the fact is that there was no Palestine. There were Arabs living in that area who: along with Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, and with help from the rest of the Arab world (Saudi Arabia, Libya, Algeria, etc.), vowed to wipe out all of the Jews living in Israel. They tried and they failed.

Now those are a couple of facts.
When you claim that the Jews and the Israelis are as much to blame as the Palestinians because
The Palestines were treated as second rate citizens from day one. They did not get access to decent jobs, got kicked off land they had owned for generations. The Palestines revolted. Backed up by nations that had both racial as religious ties with them. I agree it was not a smart move of these countries to attack Israel the way they did, but the fact remains the Palestines felt they had no other option than to strike back at an occupying force., not only are you stating a fiction, namely that Israel was an "occupying force," but you are stating that if you treat someone badly or with disrespect then it is only natural that they will try and murder you and your children and everyone that is ever even remotely associated with you.
This is wrong.
And it is evil.

So, how do you expect me to respond with compassion or understanding when you believe that the Jews, and the newly formed nation of Israel were "an occupying force?"
This is patently false.
There are over one million Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens.
If your "revolt" fiction were true, would not these million plus Arabs have revolted and joined their Palestinian brothers in overthrowing the "occupying force?"
Israel is the only Middle Eastern country where no one is persecuted because of their religion or ethnicity.
And you want to excuse the slaughter of innocents because the Palestinians are treated badly?
There was a 14 year old boy named Kobe Mandell who went for a hike with his 14 year old friend in Israel.
They were tied up in a cave and literally beaten to death with rocks.
It took many many many blows to murder these boys.
Their bloody, beaten bodies were left for their parents to find - as a statement from their Palestinian neighbors....

And you want me to have compassion for your point of view?

The Nazis also slaughtered innocent Jews because they believed that the Jews were treating the German people badly.
The Nazis were very sincere in their beliefs.
They believed that Jews were an "occupying force" in their Aryan nation and needed to be destroyed to remove their influence.

I post because I would rather expose at least one person to the truth than allow this one sided slander of Israel and the Jews to continue forever.

Moishe3rd

Aug 5th, 2004, 1:09 PM

Oh, and here's an interesting site:
Imagine this is your Hometown (http://198.173.255.220/imagine/imagine_n.html )

I would welcome a link to your "similiar" site.

Emerald_Dragon

Aug 5th, 2004, 6:24 PM

>and the newly formed nation of Israel were "an occupying force?"
>This is patently false.

well, IMO, when one country's military trounces all over its neighbors territory and calls it their own, I'd say that's an occupation force. and if you hold it for a couple decades and aren't deterred by the suicidal rebels incurring damage to your expanding settlements, its yours. so you're telling me their expanding borders have nothing to do with their military? howbout that wall they've built? or is that, not a 'fact'?

>And you want me to have compassion for your point of view?

violence breeds violence. nuke em both. end of problems, in the Middle East.

>Oh, and here's an interesting site:

who needs a website to espouse your POV, you're more than adequate propaganda. JMO.

dutchie

Aug 6th, 2004, 12:46 AM

This is a simple statistic.Is it therefore true?

It simply says that the Palestinians believe that murdering innocent people (any people, not only Israelis and/or Jews) is a good thing in their struggle to eradicate Israel.
And it says that Israelis believe that murdering innocent people is a bad thing.Still... they die.... by the dozens.

When you claim that the Jews and the Israelis are as much to blame as the Palestinians because , not only are you stating a fiction, namely that Israel was an "occupying force," but you are stating that if you treat someone badly or with disrespect then it is only natural that they will try and murder you and your children and everyone that is ever even remotely associated with you.
This is wrong.
And it is evil. And here again is the crux of my post: blame blame blame blame blame..... NO WISH FOR A SOLUTION AT ALL!!!!

So, how do you expect me to respond with compassion or understanding when you believe that the Jews, and the newly formed nation of Israel were "an occupying force?"
In their eyes, my friend, in THEIR EYES... They had been living there for quite a while, wouldn't you say?

This is patently false.
There are over one million Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens.
If your "revolt" fiction were true, would not these million plus Arabs have revolted and joined their Palestinian brothers in overthrowing the "occupying force?"
Israel is the only Middle Eastern country where no one is persecuted because of their religion or ethnicity.
And you want to excuse the slaughter of innocents because the Palestinians are treated badly?
There was a 14 year old boy named Kobe Mandell who went for a hike with his 14 year old friend in Israel.
They were tied up in a cave and literally beaten to death with rocks.
It took many many many blows to murder these boys.
Their bloody, beaten bodies were left for their parents to find - as a statement from their Palestinian neighbors....

And you want me to have compassion for your point of view?

The Nazis also slaughtered innocent Jews because they believed that the Jews were treating the German people badly.
The Nazis were very sincere in their beliefs.
They believed that Jews were an "occupying force" in their Aryan nation and needed to be destroyed to remove their influence.

I post because I would rather expose at least one person to the truth than allow this one sided slander of Israel and the Jews to continue forever.
I hate to do this (quote myself), but:

To tell you the truth, seeing this rigidity in your posts once more, has killed the last hope in me to ever see a serious desire in Jews to make peace. I do not know how it is for the Palestines in Israel, but I dare say there MUST be parents there that cry their eyes out because they do not have any hope of raising kids in a peaceful world. I do not know what your age is, or if you are a parent yourself, but if you are, you would know exactly what I mean, and what the emotions are about that, when your own offspring is concerned.Conveniently "forgot" to adress this...?!

You are the living proof that peace is not an option in the Middle East. All hope for Israel in peace is wasted effort.

I am your fellow man talking to you. I am NOT a palestine, not an Arab. And had I been that, my words would have been exactly the same. I am driven by LOVE for ALL humans. Your engine, Moishe3rd, is fueled by HATE.

violence breeds violence. nuke em both. end of problems, in the Middle East.
While I do not agree, I CAN UNDERSTAND FULL WELL WHERE THIS IS COMING FROM. People get SICK and TIRED of YOU BOTH.

And please, please get the hell out of here with you atrocities-sites... It should be absolutely no problem to get some interesting contra-stories and pictures... That is my point really... Blame blame blame blame ad infinitum.

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 6th, 2004, 10:24 AM

And here again is the crux of my post: blame blame blame blame blame..... NO WISH FOR A SOLUTION AT ALL!!!! They have a solution Dutchie, for them its that either the Palestinians cave and become people under Israel's subjective rule or they die. The "nice" term is "ethnic cleansing." Im very grateful and relieved that in this day and age there are countless educated and righteous Jewish people that dont feel this way and protest against this kind of activity. All Ive seen from what has been posted here is arrogance, revenge and greed.

And please, please get the hell out of here with you atrocities-sites... It should be absolutely no problem to get some interesting contra-stories and pictures... That is my point really... Blame blame blame blame ad infinitum. Yep, the US is no less innocent of sponsoring its own ethnic cleansing types of activities. One thing I had completely and ignorantly forgotten about is that the German's are not entirely to blame either. There were MANY other countries involved in the activities that Hitler espoused.

If anyone looked up information on the Waffen SS, which was Hitler's version of volunteer brigades and also served as his personal bodyguard service, one would find that the majority of Waffen volunteers were NOT German at all. The Waffen SS was comprised of small units as well as entire battle units that fought right alongside regular SS troops, and carried out other activities.

My point in all of my posting is that Israel is innaccurately portrayed as some kind of innocent victim and that it should be felt sorry for because of what the Germans (and just the Germans apparently) did to them. This while ignoring the fact that they have been and still continue to act out in a similar manner. I would have a much different perspective if they hadnt been carrying out selective violence (in a lesser degree) toward one group of people and manipulating other countries to their favor, just as Hitler did.

And Moishe, you can post statistics all you want, gassing hundreds of thousands of people is no worse or better than killing off millions through disease like small pox or bulldozing entire families and picking off a few hundred runners trying to escape the blades. Do you get that? IT IS NO DIFFERENT! The means by which it has occurred and the end result is still the same whether it be Nazi's, the US or Israel. It was planned, it was ordered and it was carried out for no other purpose than to remove an entire single group of people and take whatever "wealth" they possessed.

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 6th, 2004, 11:02 AM

I would welcome a link to your "similiar" site. There are many "similar" sites about Palestinians as well as others including pictures of American Indian people massacred and frozen in the snow. I could get really graphic and describe for you what happened but I dont want to give anyone any ideas. The early military factions of THIS COUNTRY and what they committed against the Indigenous would make others atrocities look like schoolyard fights. Oh yes, Jewish people (as well as others) were active in US military factions and committed acts of violence, torture and murder against Indian people. This was long BEFORE, DURING and continued AFTER the holocaust. What goes around comes around eh?

Ill defend inaccuracies about my own but I certainly wont support wrong. I did in fact answer to your drunken Indian rhetoric in the thread where it was appropriate but I notice you still have not responded to it. Interesting how you will throw out anything OT and even completely wrong to defend yourself here, yet cant seem to muster up enough energy elsewhere. This leads me to believe that all you are worried about is looking bad rather than being factual.

If you really were that interested in looking at sites and pictures like that Im sure you can find them on your own but I doubt you would learn anything from them since the attitude you post with says otherwise. You just want to try and one up people who dont agree with you publically. Since other members here have found and posted those kinds of sites in other threads, you can sit upon your pedestal alone. :dork:

MetalMilitia

Aug 6th, 2004, 6:01 PM

Moishe3rd

Aug 6th, 2004, 7:18 PM

Random post to criticize Israels policies

More than 42,000 olive, citrus and date trees had been uprooted, according to the local council. Altogether, 4,405 acres of orchards, vineyards and vegetable fields were flattened.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=548358

This has nothing to do with the defense of Israel from rockets. It is plain and simple trying to starve the Palestinians into leaving Israel. It is an attack on the lives of non-combatants. It is collective punishment. It is a violation of international law and one could go so far as to call it a war crime.

-MM- :crs:

:bs:

Find me one article by Sa'id Ghazali that criticizes or is even mildly concerned about Palestinian policies towards Israel.
He is full of sh*t.
(That antagonistic enough for you? Make you lose hope, does it. My hateful atttitude towards fascist propaganda?)
Buddy boys, some day these people will be coming for you; will be writing about you; will want your piece of the pie.
I trust that you will give it to them and live.

dutchie

Aug 7th, 2004, 1:34 AM

Moishe3rd,

You completely failed to adress my last post. You either didn't see it (which I would find very hard to believe), or you're just conviently taking up MM's post - which gives you a new opportunity to say he talks bullshit - in stead of answering my post, which would admittedly be damn hard for you to answer.

Which - IMO - makes you a coward, sir. :bye: :indec: :Blbl:

A hate and war mongering coward, I might add...

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 8th, 2004, 7:02 AM

:bs: Find me one article by Sa'id Ghazali that criticizes or is even mildly concerned about Palestinian policies towards Israel. He is full of sh*t. What policies? The only thing they have right now is trying to survive a dictator bent on ethnic cleansing using guerilla and terrorist tactics. Oh yeah, and doing it s-l-o-w-l-y so that it doesnt "appear" to be Nazi-like.

(That antagonistic enough for you? Make you lose hope, does it. My hateful atttitude towards fascist propaganda?) Cant lose what didnt exist.

Buddy boys, some day these people will be coming for you; will be writing about you; will want your piece of the pie. I trust that you will give it to them and live. WHAT?? My dont we sound hopeful that some unamed scourge comes here to reek havoc! I for one will not give anyone anything that isnt theirs to rightfully have! Ill go down in a haze of bullets first. You go ahead and pansy out if you want but you just proved to me what a fascist spineless jellyfish you are. :boxer: :bs:

Moishe3rd

Aug 8th, 2004, 11:25 AM

dutchie wrote:

You completely failed to adress my last post........

I hate to do this (quote myself), but:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchie
To tell you the truth, seeing this rigidity in your posts once more, has killed the last hope in me to ever see a serious desire in Jews to make peace. I do not know how it is for the Palestines in Israel, but I dare say there MUST be parents there that cry their eyes out because they do not have any hope of raising kids in a peaceful world. I do not know what your age is, or if you are a parent yourself, but if you are, you would know exactly what I mean, and what the emotions are about that, when your own offspring is concerned.
Conveniently "forgot" to adress this...?!
You are the living proof that peace is not an option in the Middle East. All hope for Israel in peace is wasted effort.
I am your fellow man talking to you. I am NOT a palestine, not an Arab. And had I been that, my words would have been exactly the same. I am driven by LOVE for ALL humans. Your engine, Moishe3rd, is fueled by HATE.

Okay dutchie, I assume this is the part of the post that I failed to address.
I generally respond to my mood and try not to visit Armageddon too often as you all depress me.
But, being reasonably cheerful at this time, I shall attempt to address your concerns.

I do not know how it is for the Palestines in Israel, but I dare say there MUST be parents there that cry their eyes out because they do not have any hope of raising kids in a peaceful world.
Yes, I suspect that there are some. I suspect, based on Palestinian websites; news reports and the actions that take place in Palestine (whether it be against Israel or against each other), that it is a minority that "cry their eyes out" but, I could be wrong. It could be the vast silent majority of Palestinians "cry their eyes out."
How would you suggest that the Palestinians create hope of raising children in a peaceful world?

I am a parent. My son was in Israel when a Palestinian exploded himself about a block away. Several Israelis (two Jews and three Arabs) were murdered. He does not like Palestinians.
Good friends of mine were in Israel when a Palestinian exploded himself prematurely at a busstop. His head went flying through a window of the hotel they were staying at. They were happy that he was dead and that no one else was hurt.
My daughter is going to Israel in about three weeks for a year. I am very happy that Israel has built a fence and is busy assassinating terrorist leaders so that Palestinian attacks on Israel have shrunk to next to nothing.
Sometimes I do get depressed for the world my children are growing up in when I read of people like yourself who believe that what is all important is "dialogue" and "negotiation." My brother is one such person.
I believe you are sincere. I believe that you think that Islamic fascist terrorists and Palestinian murderers want peace and justice.
I believe that you think that "if only".....
If only Israel would be reasonable....
If only the US weren't a war monger....
If only we treated the terrorists with dignity and respect...
Then we could all have peace.

The problem is that history with a capital H belies your beliefs.
The hard, cold facts of history - from yesterday to 1,000 years ago give lie to your "if only" philosophy.

I realize it made no impression on you all whatsoever, but I will repost this again, in greater detail.
What the heck, maybe a glimmer of truth might penetrate....

The German Nazi Party believed that Germany was oppressed by the rest of the world.
They believed that these wrongs had to be righted.
They sincerely believed that Jews were behind this oppression.
They very sincerely believed that Jews were responsible for their economic woes.
They believed that Jews were an "occupying force" in Germany and in Europe in general.
They believed that Jews were treating the German people horribly.
They believed that Jews were polluting their race.
These very sincere, heartfelt beliefs, that they were absolutely postive were true, led them to slaughter millions of Jews - practically all of the Jews that lived on the continent of Europe.
And, understand, the world did nothing. They sincerely, if only partially, shared the Nazi view of the Jews.
Jews to them were, at the very least, a troublesome people who largely "deserved" what they got.

Now, guess what Jackson, the Communist Chinese also had very sincere beliefs as they murdered over 20 million Chinese.
As did Stalin, as he murdered over 20 million "Russians."
As did Pol Pot as he murdered Cambodians; as did the Turks as they murdered Armenians; as did the Americans for that matter as they murdered the natives.
The list is endless.
But the beliefs are very sincere, from the heart.
It doesn't make them right.

Examine your beliefs.
The Soviet Union was an Evil Empire. It collapsed because the United States fought back.
Communism was an Evil form of government. Would you rather live in North Korea or South Korea?
If you had no choice in the matter except to convince someone that North Korea is evil or else you have to move there, could you do it? Would you?
Nazi Germany was Evil and had to be destroyed.
The Arab nations that attempted to wipe out the Jews in Israel were Evil.
The Arab/Islamo Fascists that still want to wipe out Israel are Evil.
The Arab/Islamo Fascists that murder people in Spain; in Indonesia; in Pakistan; in India; in Nigeria; in the Sudan; in Iraq; in Palestine; in Israel; in the United States; are Evil.
You negotiate with Evil. You try to come to an agreement with someone whose sole aim is to murder you.
You are sincere in your beliefs that this should be done.
How?
With Whom?

But, I suspect that you do not believe in Good and Evil, except that those who disagree with your empathy for all humans, no matter how despicable their actions may be, are, in your eyes, evil.
I cannot negotiate with Evil.
I suggest you attempt it.
Let me know how it works out.

dutchie

Aug 8th, 2004, 1:08 PM

Moishe3rd

Aug 8th, 2004, 5:28 PM

OK, so your courage wasn't lost completely, I see.. Moishe3rd, you might smile your smile of superior knowledge to me, but I can see right through that. Your entire post proves it to me: there is no desire for peace. YOU ask ME to tell you how peace should be accomplished in the Middle East, while you - again - present nothing more than the old song: Blame Blame Blame Blame.

There MIGHT be parents wishing to raise their kids in peace, you say. ARE YOU STUPID?

You are a parent yourself. How would YOU feel if your kid commited suicide, wearing bombs around his waiste? OK that kid is a terrorist, I agree.. BUT, how would you feel?!? Why was that kid committing suicide?

You believe I am sincere. Yet - at the same time you think I am naive. The palestinians DO NOT WANT PEACE, you think.

I put this to you again: THE ISRAELIS DONT WANT PEACE EITHER. YOU ARE THE LIVING PROOF OF THAT!!

PS: level of language brought down to a 12 year old, was intended. I sincerely believe I was not understood clearly before.
I am not an Israeli.
I would be dumbfounded if one of my children committed suicide.
I would be horrified if one of my children murdered innocent people for any reason.
I would not have to ask why my child performed these horrible acts.
I would know that they were insane. I would have to take my share of the blame for making them insane. It would crush me that I could fail so horribly as a parent.
And, as you have no suggestions as to what the Palestinians might do to create hope of raising children in a peaceful world, then might I ask how you would feel if your child performed such atrocities?
And, I never accused you of being naive.
You don't seem to understand my posts on the nature of sincerity and belief.
Read it again.
Just because you believe in something does not mean that it is either right or Good.

VegasRonin

Aug 8th, 2004, 7:23 PM

If anyone sincerely put themselves in either of the warring party's shoes, I think you'd have a very different point of view. If I was an Israeli Jew then I'd be for just what they are currently doing. If I was a Palestinian then I'd be a gun toting Rebel. No way would I be a suicide bomber. That is definitely not in my make-up. I'd tell whomever was asking me to blow myself, to go blow himself up. After putting yourself in their shoes, the actual state of conditions becomes apparent. When you have a culture clash such as this, and neither side is willing to really back down, the outcome is clear. History has shown us this repeatedly. The side with the higher tech and most wiling to use it will, for all intents and purposes, eradicate the other side. Just look to the Native Americans, The Aztecs, Germany's Jews,and countless peoples that were in The Roman's way. Barring outside Arab assistance, the days of the Palestinians are numbered. Nothing in History shows otherwise.

Sagi_Zod

Aug 9th, 2004, 3:30 PM

Israel and Palestine are both ignorant countries (yea country) with no respect for each other.
Speaking contra about one of the sides without saying the other is as bad is bull.

Best proof for me is what the countries around Israel are doing.
Your statistics speak of 600.000 Palestinians who had to run off. You do realise they are now with millions living at the borders in camps. These people are not allowed by either the Israeli to come back nor by the Islamic states to come out of their camps to build up a new life.
Why? Probably just to keep the hate going those people aren’t allowed to settle.

For the past 50 years!!

Israel did stole land. I don't see how you can deny that.
Because the land was 2000 years ago theirs, they deserve to get it back?
Because they suffered they deserved a land?
Because it's in their bible, they deserve to get more?

That’s bullshit reasoning.

The Palestinians had to give up their land for that? Those reasons?!?

If they had stopped and not conquered more land, given Palestinians the same rights, there probably wouldn’t be all those problems.

Someone mentioned, marriage is only allowed between Jew and Jew in Israel. Israel is Jewish Nation therefore their marriage laws would naturally match their religion.
I didn’t know something alike was still possible in this world in a democratic country.
Comparing it with the USA were gay marriage isn’t possible doesn’t makes it better.
It simple is discrimination, as in Israel as in the USA.

In the first place Britain shouldn’t have given them a land. Not without giving the native population a proper alternative.
I don’t really think there was an alternative to it. How can you give away a whole land?
So it shouldn’t have happened at all. Not saying the Jews didn’t deserve a land. Saying there were a lot of other places they could have putted up a nation for them.
A lot more lucrative places, cause it used to be a desert. They gave them a desert… there are better places in the world to make a new nation. Places without 600.000 inhabitants.

Saying they needed to have that exact spot and support that vision would be utterly distasteful, that would mean they can claim land on the basic of a book and claim even more.

Could probably keep on going on like that.
But it happened and what is done is done.

It’s rather easy to put the problems to the open.
I don’t think it’s anymore needed to do, except to the stupid morons who still can’t acknowledge the blame at both sides.

The only thing that still matters in this situation is a solution to be found. Like dutchie said the blaming and new mistakes based on the past have to stop for that first.

Moishe3rd

Aug 9th, 2004, 5:01 PM

Sagi_Zod wrote:

Israel did stole land. I don't see how you can deny that.

If they had stopped and not conquered more land, given Palestinians the same rights, there probably wouldn’t be all those problems.

From whom did Israel steal land? When? How?
Stopped Where? When? Not conquered what land?

Someone mentioned, marriage is only allowed between Jew and Jew in Israel. Israel is Jewish Nation therefore their marriage laws would naturally match their religion.
This is only correct if you are talking about a religious marriage. It happens to be true in most religions all over the world.
Non religious Jews cannot be married by religious authorities either in Israel.

It is illegal in most Muslim countries to even practice or preach any other religion other than Islam. All religions are allowed in Israel.

In the first place Britain shouldn’t have given them a land. Not without giving the native population a proper alternative.
Should Britain have given Jordan a land? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? The Arab Emirates? Iraq? Should France have given Lebanon a land? Syria?

I don’t really think there was an alternative to it. How can you give away a whole land?
So it shouldn’t have happened at all.
So what should have happened to the entire Middle East, Africa, and most of Asia and the Indian subcontinent?
How far back would you like to go?
Should the Moslems have conquered India?
Should the Tutusis have conquered the Hutus (Rwanda)
Should the Dutch have conquered South Africa?
Should the Oglala Sioux Native Americans have conquered Minnesota?
Whose land is any of it?
Or is it only Israel that should have never happened at all?

A lot more lucrative places, cause it used to be a desert. They gave them a desert… there are better places in the world to make a new nation. Places without 600.000 inhabitants.
Really? Where?

humanhybrid

Aug 9th, 2004, 9:05 PM

Moishe3rd You have reached your end in an attempt to show any civility and humanity that Isreal has in regards to the policies and relations it has with the state of Palistine. Are you an Atheist? because it seems as though its the survival of the fittest for you. I wouldnt think so being that the jewish god has chosen them, the jew. Your either a gentile or a jew. Couldnt we all just be humans living on the same planet? I guess thats being anti semantic, as it couldnt or wouldnt justify what Isreal is doing. good day!

blahblahblah

Aug 10th, 2004, 1:11 AM

Oh Lord, I can't believe I am responding to this sort of troll, but there are so many facts here that are horribly off that I feel I have to:

1) There seems to be a persistant impression that this conflict was caused as Jews were relocated to Israel/Palestine on mass from Europe after WWII. This is not correct. There was a persistant Jewish community living in the area since antiquity (the Jewish community in Hebron, for example, existed from Roman rule until 1929, when 70 were killed and the rest fled as their homes were burnt down in a pogrom). Mass immigration had started, legally, during Ottoman rule after the pogroms in Eastern Europe of the 1890s. By the 1920s, Britain promised that the Jews would have a state (and then promised the same thing to the Arabs), establishing the precedent for Israel, there were about 600,000 Jews in the land that would be Israel before the partition.

Originally, the UN paritioned the land into two countries, Israel as partioned was majority Jewish, Palestine majority Arab - Israel accepted the partion, but the remaining Arab powers did not and invaded. Israel won at the cost of thousands of lives and expanded its borders. During the Israeli War of Independence thousands of Arab residents of Palestine (the Palestinians) fled, some because of Israeli aggression and even terrorism, some because Arab leaders told them to, and some because they expected an emmanent Arab victory. The surrounding Arab states refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees, setting the current crisis in motion. Then, in the 1950s, Arab states began to expell their Jewish populations, causing hundreds of thousands to flee to Israel. Wars in 1967 (after Egypt expelled the UN troops guarding the border and massed troops) and 1973 (surprise attack by many Arab states) resulted in the capture of more Arab lands, including the West Bank and Gaza. This does not mean that current Israeli policies are not open to debate, but to think that this was somehow prompted by a coherent ethnic cleansing effort over 50 years is not warranted.

2) Israel DOES NOT forbid marriages between Arabs and Jews, Jews and Jews, Arabs and Arabs, etc. The current, very controversal, law, prevents Palestinians without citizenship from gaining it through marriage to Israelis. Israeli Arabs and Jews can and do marry each other, as do Palestinians and Israelis. The current law is more along the lines of an immigration restriction than anything else.

3) The current problem is mutual, without a clear solution. Until recently, many Israelis felt that the West Bank (not as much Gaza, which Israel tried to give to Egypt along with the Sinai) was a critical part of Israel and its defense. Palestinians on their part felt that all Israeli territory was illegitimate. This made it a war of no compromise for both sides. Now things are changing, but support for suicide bombings and the fear that they engender in Israel keep the tit-for-tat violence going. Only a small minority of Israelis feel that Israel should keep the West Bank and Gaza -- the question is how to get out of the war when, between misguided settlement policy, the policy of Arab states, and the nature of Palestinians politics, the world has gotten very complicated.

4) Israel is not building concentration camps for Palestinians. It is not trying to exterminate Palestinians (many more would die then). Arabs can and do vote in Israel. There is equal protection under the law for Arab and Jewish citizens. It is not Nazi Germany in any way, the comparison is useless and inflamatory. It is, however, placing the interests of Israelis over that of Palestinians, much as the US places American interests first -- by building a wall, by staging raids, etc. The result is a lot of suffering on both sides as the cycle of violence continues.

5) Don't believe me? Check out any normal source of news, from the notoriously anti-Israeli Guardian to more pro-Israeli papers or organizations. Alternately, read actual newspapers from Israel; it is a democracy and people engage in active debate Ha'aretz (www.haaretz.com) is a good choice. You might also want to read the Arab perspective, I would reccomend the Daily Star (www.dailystar.com.lb) of Beruit. Much of the accusations here are insane. Actually inform yourself and you will realize the complexity of the situation.

blahblahblah

Aug 10th, 2004, 1:42 AM

Defiant Noquisi,

I also don't think you realize the nature of the articles you were quoting earlier. At least I hope you didn't:

Actually they do...

They also have supported a concentration camp leader regardless of the fact that he commited crimes against humanity, because the prisoners were Germans. They dont recognize crimes against humanity as long as the crimes werent commited against Jews.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/KillerMorel.html

http://www.hoffman-info.com/hypocrisy.html

Both of these sites are run by organizations that talk about the evils of the Jews and deny the existance of the Holocaust. The Hoffman-Info site is the "Campaign for Radical Truth" that proports to reveal: "information on Judaism's strange gods, secret societies and psychological warfare " whose FAQ says: "if by 'Holocaust' you allege that millions of Jews were put to death in homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz, ... then I assert total skepticism for what is, in essence, a laughable and insupportable thesis."

The other site is run by David Irving, who is well-known in Britian as an avid defender of Hitler and a denier of the existance of the Holocaust. He lost a famous court case on this issue in England, and is now not being allowed into New Zealand because of his hate speech: http://www.guardian.co.uk/irving/0,2759,181044,00.html

Disagreeing with Israeli policy is not antisemitism, but the work of Irving and company was actually found by the courts of two countries to be antisemitic, and is, quite frankly, just plain nasty. This does not mean that the Israeli refusal to extradite Morel is not open to controversy, but to say Jews in general ran concentration camps for Germans is propaganda taken right from these discredited "historians." Many countries do not extradite under a variety of circumstances (many ex-dictators now living in France and Spain, military members, etc.) that is not the same thing as "Jews support concentration camp leaders."

Defiant Noquisi, I hope, hope, hope, that you are not taken in by this nonsense, all it does is fill the world with hate of the worst kind.

substand

Aug 10th, 2004, 2:33 AM

I can't beleive anyone responded to this thread, much less 3 pages worth... and i almost can't beleive i'm doing it now...

as if "Whats the difference between Israel and Nazi Germany? They don't have concentration camps, anything else?" needed a response outside of VR's first post. this is just like "Bush is the same as a Nazi- what's the difference?" To which the appropriate response is- "I'm a jew living in America, and I'm open about it and still living."

whataloadacrap.

Sagi_Zod

Aug 10th, 2004, 8:37 AM

From whom did Israel steal land? When? How?
Stopped Where? When? Not conquered what land?

The UN made a plan to give the Jews a state of their own.
They did not putted that plan in action.

Israel was proclaimed free by Ben Goerion 14 mai 1948 without proper concensus from the UN.

But if you work according to the plan made by the UN at first, they would have had ca. 54% of Palestina, Israel holds 78% of the territory from on the first war they waged.

This is only correct if you are talking about a religious marriage. It happens to be true in most religions all over the world.
Non religious Jews cannot be married by religious authorities either in Israel.

It is illegal in most Muslim countries to even practice or preach any other religion other than Islam. All religions are allowed in Israel.

Muslim countries aren't democracies.

If it's purely about religious marriage then it was even irrelevant to be posted in this topic.

On the sideline.
I do think it's discrimination that gay's can't marry anywhere by law.

Should Britain have given Jordan a land? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? The Arab Emirates? Iraq? Should France have given Lebanon a land? Syria?

In those lands, did they got the native population on the run to give a land to others?

Originally there were about 40% Jews and 50% Palestinians + 10% Bedouins
Now
Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6%

No they gave the original population their own government and land in old colonies.

So what should have happened to the entire Middle East, Africa, and most of Asia and the Indian subcontinent?
How far back would you like to go?
Should the Moslems have conquered India?
Should the Tutusis have conquered the Hutus (Rwanda)
Should the Dutch have conquered South Africa?
Should the Oglala Sioux Native Americans have conquered Minnesota?
Whose land is any of it?
Or is it only Israel that should have never happened at all?

What are you trying to proof?

Afghanistan and Iraq are a part from the USA cause they conquered it?

Conquering might have been possible 100 years ago but we are in a more sophisticated world by now.
You can't put your troops somewhere and say it's yours.

Really? Where?

Take a map of 1945 and look for cheap land with a low population. *grin*

blahblahblah

Aug 10th, 2004, 11:14 AM

The UN made a plan to give the Jews a state of their own.
They did not putted that plan in action.

Israel was proclaimed free by Ben Goerion 14 mai 1948 without proper concensus from the UN.

But if you work according to the plan made by the UN at first, they would have had ca. 54% of Palestina, Israel holds 78% of the territory from on the first war they waged.

[snip]

Originally there were about 40% Jews and 50% Palestinians + 10% Bedouins
Now
Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6%

I just wanted to correct the factual errors here, and then let the flamewars continue. The partition plan was passed by the UN on November 29, 1947. The declaration of statehood in 1948 occured on midnight on May 14, the day that the British mandate over Palestine expired, as required by law. On May 13, the Arab League decided formally to reject the partition and send in troops. The formation of Israel was exactly as mandated by the UN, and the following war was started by the Arab League invasion. This doesn't mean that some Israelis didn't reject partition and want to expand, but the government of Israel accepted partition and the governments of the Arab countries attacked the new state. (Good non-biased info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War for those who want to read more)

The population figures you gave are incorrect, or at least incorrectly labelled. The original pre-1967 territory of Israel was over 65% Jewish at the time of partition. After waves of immigration, the figure is a little above 80%, as you reported, with the rest being Israeli Arabs. Neither figure counts the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who are not citizens of Israel. If you add them in, the whole population of historical Palestine is around 65% Jewish, 35% Arab.

Hope this helps clarify things

Moishe3rd

Aug 10th, 2004, 12:34 PM

The UN made a plan to give the Jews a state of their own.
They did not putted that plan in action.

Israel was proclaimed free by Ben Goerion 14 mai 1948 without proper concensus from the UN.

But if you work according to the plan made by the UN at first, they would have had ca. 54% of Palestina, Israel holds 78% of the territory from on the first war they waged.

(See blahblahblah's correct answer - (gotta love that name :grin )

In those lands, did they got the native population on the run to give a land to others?

Yes as a matter of fact, they did. Saudi Arabia became a recognized country after they warred and kicked out the ruling Hashemites from Mecca and Medina.
These kings in turn took over Jordan and Iraq.
Saudi Arabian Sunni Wahhabis also invaded and murdered well over 100,000 Shiite Muslims in Northern Saudi Arabia and southern Iraq (along with pursuing the war in Jordan.)
There were massive population transfers as Greece took over Turkey and Turkey took over Greece. Likewise with Armenia and Turkey.
The Sudanese Arabs have been invading and murdering the southern Sudanese black population for over 50 years.
Pakistan ethnically cleansed the Hindus.
Most of the countries in the world that were formed around the end of WWII chased out or conquered some native population or other, including the Middle East; Africa; India; and Asia.
Israel is the only Middle Eastern country that has complete freedom of religion and ethnicity.
They have not "cleansed" their Arab population as the Palestinians are claiming that they must "cleanse" any Jews that might live in the areas they want for a country.

What are you trying to proof?

Merely that any country that has fought for its life for the last fifty years and triumphed is as legitimate as any other country - including all of the despotic states of the Middle East.

humanhybrid

Aug 10th, 2004, 12:40 PM

blahblahblah "multiple personality disorder" :yeah:

blahblahblah

Aug 10th, 2004, 3:46 PM

blahblahblah "multiple personality disorder" :yeah:

errr.... thanks? or, was this an insult? Very confusing. In order to match the spirit of your post, I will also use a random smiley. I haven't seen this one yet: :gotcha:

dutchie

Aug 10th, 2004, 4:52 PM

Just because you believe in something does not mean that it is either right or Good.
Great quote. Can you apply this deep knowledge to your own stance?!?

Sagi_Zod

Aug 11th, 2004, 7:50 AM

I just wanted to correct the factual errors here, and then let the flamewars continue. The partition plan was passed by the UN on November 29, 1947. The declaration of statehood in 1948 occured on midnight on May 14, the day that the British mandate over Palestine expired, as required by law. On May 13, the Arab League decided formally to reject the partition and send in troops. The formation of Israel was exactly as mandated by the UN, and the following war was started by the Arab League invasion. This doesn't mean that some Israelis didn't reject partition and want to expand, but the government of Israel accepted partition and the governments of the Arab countries attacked the new state. (Good non-biased info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War for those who want to read more)

-Since the 15th century Palestina was a part from the Turcish empire.
-The original population has been there for about 500 years atleast in other words.

-They loose in WWI.
-Colonies of the empire got splitted between France and Brittain.

-1920: Palestina is now under Brittains mandate.
Read: Part of the decolonisation: It was declared that everyone deserved their own nation. That means, the people living in the country get to become the righteous leaders of their own land.

-I had read a source that claimed it was without concent of the UN. The plan was made by the UN but it was only an advice made by the UN.

Meaning that after the Brits left Israel it became a new land for the original population. UN adviced a split up. In other words Israel was proclaimed by Ben Goerion 14 mai 1948 without proper concensus from the UN. ADVICED.

Anyway I'm going to leave that in the middle. If the UN gave an advice or an order to the split up.

But!
The UN Charter of 1947, clearly states decolonisation, the land is supposed to go to the original population. There wasn't even a vote to decide what was going to happen within the original population.
The UN Charter that was the basic of all decolonisation was ignored.

That's about Israel itself.
Outside that.

Source: CIA, Washington D.C. (USA)

West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Golan Heights is Israeli-occupied (Lebanon claims the Shab'a Farms area of Golan Heights)

Resolution 242 from the UN concludes that conquering land through war is not acceptable.
Since 1967 the UN has putted those parts under the 4th convention of Geneva and every year since then they have asked Israel to retreat from those parts.

So I humbly conclude from that if the state Israel wasn't a theft, then they are busy stealing land anyway on this moment.

The population figures you gave are incorrect, or at least incorrectly labelled. The original pre-1967 territory of Israel was over 65% Jewish at the time of partition. After waves of immigration, the figure is a little above 80%, as you reported, with the rest being Israeli Arabs. Neither figure counts the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who are not citizens of Israel. If you add them in, the whole population of historical Palestine is around 65% Jewish, 35% Arab.
Hope this helps clarify things

Tried to find those numbers you are talking about and I was talking about right before the British left. Couldn't find any but I did found this on the site you showed.

http://www.passia.org/images/pal_facts_MAPS/dist_of_pop_jews_and_palestinians_1946.gif

Red is Palestinian. Only one place with a Jewish majority. More people there but not enough to get a majority of 65%. O_o

Edit: Outside that and there is no way you can ignore it.
Those Palestinians in the refugee camps once had a grandmother living in Israel.
Where does the current population from Israel their grandmother came from?

Any Jew can 'come back to his homeland' to Israel any time they want. But those Palestinians can't.

Sagi_Zod

Aug 11th, 2004, 7:59 AM

Merely that any country that has fought for its life for the last fifty years and triumphed is as legitimate as any other country - including all of the despotic states of the Middle East.

It would be wiser to put mistakes from others in the open too.
Not say that because they did it, we can do it too.

Moishe3rd

Aug 11th, 2004, 8:41 AM

It would be wiser to put mistakes from others in the open too.
Not say that because they did it, we can do it too.
On this, I entirely agree.
I look forward to the threads called "Criticizing Palestine," where the fervor is as great as it is on this thread.

blahblahblah

Aug 11th, 2004, 11:17 AM

-I had read a source that claimed it was without concent of the UN. The plan was made by the UN but it was only an advice made by the UN.

Meaning that after the Brits left Israel it became a new land for the original population. UN adviced a split up. In other words Israel was proclaimed by Ben Goerion 14 mai 1948 without proper concensus from the UN. ADVICED.
[snip]
The UN Charter of 1947, clearly states decolonisation, the land is supposed to go to the original population. There wasn't even a vote to decide what was going to happen within the original population.
The UN Charter that was the basic of all decolonisation was ignored.

The UN voted 33-10 to establish the nation of Israel and to partition the Mandate in 1947. The actual resolution explains how it takes into account the rights of both Jews and Arabs, as well as the population difference by area. The full text of the resoluton is here, from the UN itself ( http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument ) but, as a warning, is kinda boring to read. To let you know how clear the link was between the UN vote and the actual State of Israel, Israel's declaration of independence by Ben Gurion actually says that he is implementing the UN resolution. I am not sure what source you are reading, but this is right from the UN itself.

As for the other issue you raise, decolonization was a tricky process, because the idea of nationhood was a relatively new one. In Africa, for example, there have been terrible problems because the arbitrary states created cut across tribal boundaries. In 1947, the land contained both Jews and Arabs (I'll address the population issue when I get to your point), both of whom had claim to the land. The intent was create two states, one of each nationality. Both populations were there, and each took control of their own fates -- that is the whole point of decolonization!

Resolution 242 from the UN concludes that conquering land through war is not acceptable.
Since 1967 the UN has putted those parts under the 4th convention of Geneva and every year since then they have asked Israel to retreat from those parts.

So I humbly conclude from that if the state Israel wasn't a theft, then they are busy stealing land anyway on this moment.

Ah, finally, the real point!

I agree with you, the West Bank and Gaza as a whole are not part of Israel. Surveys show that most Israelis also agree. Eventually, (hopefully sooner rather than later), there will be a peace plan that will actually succeed. What is holding up peace? Well, the best chance for it seemed to be the Taba discussions with Clinton, Barak, and Arafat in 2000. Arafat was offered a Palestinian state on 97% of the West Bank and Gaza, and a couple percent of Israeli territory to make up the difference. He rejected it. Now, before you go googling this issue, it is worth mentoning that this has been subject to a lot of debate, but the final word on the issue just came out with a new book released this month by Dennis Ross (Clinton Middle East Negotiator), a diplomat who has long been frustrated by both sides. He states the details of the offer, and the frustrations with other Palestinian negotiators over Arafat's refusal to respond. The book is "The Missing Peace."

The conflict therefore continues, and, ironically, Israel wants peace while the Palestinians want Israel out. What is the problem then? Certainly, Israeli settlements are part of the problem, but Arafat's failures, terrorist attacks, militant groups, etc. are also major factors. The sooner peace can be made, the better for all sides.

http://www.passia.org/images/pal_facts_MAPS/dist_of_pop_jews_and_palestinians_1946.gif

Red is Palestinian. Only one place with a Jewish majority. More people there but not enough to get a majority of 65%.

Jews were a 65% majority in the State of Israel as established by the UN, not in all of the Palestine Mandate as you seem to think I said. You can see the actual UN map from 1947 here ( http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument ) Thus, the partition created a majority Jewish state and a majority Arab state in the territory (The population for the proposed Jewish State was 498,000 Jews and 325,000 non-Jews according tot he UN). The Jewish state had slightly more land, but the majority of it was desert.

A few problems with the map you cite above. This map is from the Palestinian Committee on International Affairs, not exactly an unbiased source, and, while I don't know if its data is correct or not, it is designed precisely to lead the kind of conclusion you just reaceahed. Without numbers, the map is designed so that you think that that there were few Jews compared to Arabs, but most of the population of the UN-mandated Israel was located in Tel-Aviv, which had a substantial Jewish majority.

Edit: Outside that and there is no way you can ignore it.
Those Palestinians in the refugee camps once had a grandmother living in Israel.
Where does the current population from Israel their grandmother came from?

Any Jew can 'come back to his homeland' to Israel any time they want. But those Palestinians can't.

Again, there was an effort to create two states from the beginning, and Palestinian Arabs in Israel were given the opportunity for citizenship (there are many Arab Israelis). In the War of 1948, many Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza fled, or were forced to flee. The Arab states around them refused to resettle them. This is a terrible human tragedy, but was a mutual problem that needs a mutual solution.

Neither side has a monopoly on suffering. The grandmothers of current Israelis were expelled from Libya or Iraq after their properties were seized, they fled from Austria after the World War, they were turned back by the British as they tried to escape the death camps by ship, they fled Hebron in the West Bank or the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem after the Arab riots of the 1920s. What is your point? There needs to be a peaceful solution, but you continued effort to deny Israel its right to exist (by saying the UN never approved, that there were no Jews on the land, that Jews have no claim -- all false) is exactly the problem at the heart of the current conflict. We need acceptance of Israel and its right to exist within secure borders, a negotiated peace that creates an independent Palestinian state, and recognition of Israel by the surrounding Arabs.

substand

Aug 12th, 2004, 12:02 AM

first: blahblahblah- THANK YOU for the info.

2nd: I
t is illegal in most Muslim countries to even practice or preach any other religion other than Islam

Do you have a source for this? They may be "discriminated" against, but they are not often against the law.

For example, Iran is probably the "most Muslim" country (as far as law inspiration goes) and even it has provisions in its constitution that "The Zoroastrians and Jews will each elect one representative; Assyrian and Chaldean Christians will jointly elect one representative; and Armenian Christians in the north and those in the south of the country will each elect one representative." For such a small minority of people, they are given power which didn't need to be given.

There is one particular religion (if I remember correctly), however, which is outlawed in Iran. Again, if I remember correctly, it is the religion of the Baha'i, which is regarded by Iran and many Muslims to be a bastardization of Islam.

Finally, the Qur'an, while it allows "taxing" of non-Muslims, also says that Christians and Jews should not be forcibly converted.

blahblahblah

Aug 12th, 2004, 12:47 AM

Do you have a source for this? They may be "discriminated" against, but they are not often against the law.

The point about freedom of religion wasn't an issue in any of my arguments, but as designated "fact guy" for this thread, I'll respond anyway. I just looked at Iran and Saudi Arabia, other Arab countries may (and hopefully do) have different views.

Making the research easy, the State Department puts out a well-researched religious freedom report for many developing countries. The report for Saudi Arabia in 2003 reads in part:

"Freedom of religion does not exist. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government limits the practice of all but the officially sanctioned version of Islam and prohibits the public practice of other religions. During the period covered by this report, the Government publicly restated its policy that non-Muslims are free to practice their religions at home and in private. While the Government does not always respect this right in practice, many non-Muslims engage in private worship without harassment." It then continues to describe how non-Muslims often do not know when they are violating this private/public distinction, and are often arrested when praying in private resedences and lists a large number of cases.

Source: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24461.htm

You are right in that Iran doesn't officially ban other religions (except Bah'ai) but it has some scary restrictions:

"Religious minorities, by law and practice, are barred from being elected to a representative body (except to the seats in the Majles reserved for minorities, as provided for in the Constitution) and from holding senior government or military positions. Members of religious minorities are allowed to vote, but they may not run for President. All religious minorities suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing.

Members of religious minorities are barred from becoming public school principals. Applicants for public sector employment are screened for their adherence to Islam. The law stipulates penalties for government workers who do not observe "Islam’s principles and rules." Religious minorities may not serve in the judiciary or the security services. The Constitution states that "the Army of the Islamic Republic of Iran must be an Islamic army, i.e., committed to an Islamic ideology and the people, and must recruit into its service individuals who have faith in the objectives of the Islamic Revolution and are devoted to the cause of achieving its goals." Baha’is are prohibited from government employment.

University applicants are required to pass an examination in Islamic theology, which limits the access of most religious minorities to higher education"

Tons more detail here in the 2002 report: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13995.htm

substand

Aug 12th, 2004, 12:50 AM

The point about freedom of religion wasn't an issue in any of my arguments

sorry, that part wasn't directed at you, but at Moishe3rd...

Sagi_Zod

Aug 12th, 2004, 6:16 AM

Jews were a 65% majority in the State of Israel as established by the UN, not in all of the Palestine Mandate as you seem to think I said. You can see the actual UN map from 1947 here ( http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument ) Thus, the partition created a majority Jewish state and a majority Arab state in the territory (The population for the proposed Jewish State was 498,000 Jews and 325,000 non-Jews according tot he UN). The Jewish state had slightly more land, but the majority of it was desert.

A majority in the State of Israel. :)
Got that.
I was offcourse thinking about the whole region, not their part alone.

You can have obvious pro's and contra's to such a split.
Let's stop discussing about that.

-You have on one side people who lived their for the past 500 years.
-On the other side people who perhaps lived their 50-100 years, but mostly cultivated the land to what it is.

Which makes it rather righteous to do the split up. On the other hand...

What is your point? There needs to be a peaceful solution, but your continued effort to deny Israel its right to exist (by saying the UN never approved, that there were no Jews on the land, that Jews have no claim -- all false) is exactly the problem at the heart of the current conflict. We need acceptance of Israel and its right to exist within secure borders, a negotiated peace that creates an independent Palestinian state, and recognition of Israel by the surrounding Arabs.

It's pretty clear now that I've been into too many coloured wrightings about the subject.

I never doubted the right for Israel to exist. It's too late to change anything alike.
I was stating that the ground it was build on was everything but good and very contestable. :P

Moishe3rd

Aug 12th, 2004, 7:25 AM

sorry, that part wasn't directed at you, but at Moishe3rd...
But I appreciate blahblahblah answering it... :toast:

Moishe3rd

Aug 12th, 2004, 7:32 AM

A majority in the State of Israel. :)
Got that.
I was offcourse thinking about the whole region, not their part alone.

You can have obvious pro's and contra's to such a split.
Let's stop discussing about that.

-You have on one side people who lived their for the past 500 years.
-On the other side people who perhaps lived their 50-100 years, but mostly cultivated the land to what it is.

Which makes it rather righteous to do the split up. On the other hand...

It's pretty clear now that I've been into too many coloured wrightings about the subject.

I never doubted the right for Israel to exist. It's too late to change anything alike.
I was stating that the ground it was build on was everything but good and very contestable. :P

:thumbs:

:toast:

Wow. Sometimes life is beautiful all the time.
What a wonderful post Sagi.....
BE well.

blahblahblah

Aug 12th, 2004, 10:31 PM

humanhybrid

Aug 13th, 2004, 1:23 PM

What Israel does to Palestine, we are doing to Iraq

Want to criticise the Israelis for shooting stone-throwers in Gaza? The US does the same in Falujah

By Robert Fisk

12 July 2003: (The Independent) A few days ago, the American forces in Baghdad drove 17 truckloads of rubble and dirt up to the secret military area of Baghdad airport to air-freight to the United States. No journalists reported on this macabre operation, even if they knew about it. For the muck came from the site of an atrocity committed by the US Air Force at the end of its bombardment of Iraq.

The Americans believed Saddam Hussein was hiding in a suburb called Mansour and so, despite knowing that the area was packed with civilians - the operation would not be "risk-free", as one of the US spokesmen later claimed, the nearest he acknowledged that it was a gross breach of the Geneva conventions - they dropped "bunker-buster" bombs on the densely packed houses of Mansour. They killed 16 civilians, including children. But where was Saddam? It was a sign of their desperation that almost two months after they occupied Baghdad, the Americans suddenly began scrabbling through the Mansour debris. Back in the United States, scientists would be tasked to hunt for evidence of Saddam's DNA in the dirt.

I'm not sure whether precedents allow others to commit war crimes in the future - or whether a repeat performance allows others to justify past precedents. But does Mansour not remind you of Ariel Sharon's little operation in Gaza a few months ago, when he ordered an Israeli pilot to drop a massive bomb on a crowded Gaza slum, demolishing a building, killing a Hamas official and - by the strange and beautiful symmetry of such atrocities - massacring 16 Palestinian civilians, including many children? We condemned Sharon's slaughter of the innocent, which he called "a great success". But how can we do so now, when we are silent about our own murders in Mansour?

Want to criticise the Israeli army for brutally shooting down stone-throwers in the West Bank and Gaza? Well, we'd better be careful now that the US army does the same in Falujah.

Care to demand an end to the torture of Palestinian prisoners at the notorious Russian Compound interrogation centre in Jerusalem? Not much point any more. With three prisoners beaten or tortured to death by American interrogators at the Bagram prison in Afghanistan - the US admitted to two of the three "deaths under interrogation" back on 6 March - and the scandal of Guatanamo with its trussed-up, drugged and hooded prisons, its drumhead courts and its probable death chambers (for Brits, too, it seems), we can forget Israel's beatings.

Loud were we in our outrage when Israel's indisciplined soldiery looted and vandalised the Palestinian homes of Ramallah last year - but we can complain no more. For now we know that America's indisiplined soldiery (from the 3rd Infantry Division, to be exact) looted their way through Baghdad airport in the days after its capture on 3 April. All praise to Time magazine - of all publications - for breaking this story. But please, no more criticism of Israel's venal soldiers.

Europeans chorused their indignation at Israel's murder of "wanted" Palestinians - or "targeted killing", as Israel and the BBC like to call this revolting practice. Yet now that America openly boasts just the same vile tactics - attacking cars in Yemen, convoys in Iraq, villages in Afghanistan (and just who did they kill in that latest convoy attack near the Syrian border?) - we must be silent.

Last year, the Israelis produced a "dossier" culled from captured Palestinian documents, "proving" that Arafat was directing "terrorism" against Israel. The papers, mistranslated and doctored, proved nothing of the kind. But after Tony Blair's mendacious "dodgy dossier" before the Iraq war, who are we to criticise Israel for its lies?

And how can we ever protest Israel's flagrant violation of UN Resolution 242 and its occupation of Palestinian territory when the United States is occupying the entire ancient land of Iraq after illegally invading the country, killing thousands of its civilians, taking over its oil fields and then failing even to capture the murderous dictator who brutalised his own people (let alone the weapons of mass destruction which don't exist?)

Yes, precedents are dangerous things. Take the signal prescient event that occurred in the life of many Independent readers. A massive construction, symbol of a nation's power, was destroyed by "terrorists". The nation's president immediately signed into law a decree for the "protection of the people and the state", including mass arrests and the right to impose "restrictions on personal liberty ... violations of the privacy of postal ... and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches ..."

The government then said it had "proof" that "terrorists" were going to attack the homeland, to destroy "government buildings, museums ... and essential plants". This legislation then allowed the elected leader of that nation to embark on a series of cruel occupations, after the second of which he announced that "not as tyrants have we come, but as liberators".

The public building destroyed by "terrorists" was the Reichstag, the "enabling legislation" to destroy human rights legislation was signed by Hindenburg, the "proof" of the terrorist plots was provided by the Prussian government. The elected leader who claimed to be "liberating" Austria was Adolf Hitler.

A monstrous parallel, of course; revolting, historically out of all proportion, bizarre. Well, let us hope so.
The Independent. UK

humanhybrid

Aug 13th, 2004, 1:39 PM

Sagi,

I also want to thank you for a very reasonable debate, with sources and valid opinions on each side, that I think we have both gotten something from. It is much appreciated, since I was getting worried with HybridHuman's posts on this forum, and DN's very scary choice of sources, that this was going to be a hopeless flamewar.

Thanks for demonstrating that real discussion can happen online.
Sources Sources Sources! Ive got mine, you have got yours, and they have theirs. BUT THE REAL ISSUE IS ISREAL IS PLUNDERING THE LAND OUT UNDER THE FEET OF THE PALISTINIAN PEOPLE. They are terrorists and the USA is suppling them arms. You should be worried not at me but world aggressors. Just because a country has a tank and weopons doesnt mean that they themselves are not terrorists. Place your worry where it is justified! Because the walls and land are in Isreals name. GOOD day!

blahblahblah

Aug 13th, 2004, 6:06 PM

Sources Sources Sources! Ive got mine, you have got yours, and they have theirs. BUT THE REAL ISSUE IS ISREAL IS PLUNDERING THE LAND OUT UNDER THE FEET OF THE PALISTINIAN PEOPLE. They are terrorists and the USA is suppling them arms. You should be worried not at me but world aggressors. Just because a country has a tank and weopons doesnt mean that they themselves are not terrorists. Place your worry where it is justified! Because the walls and land are in Isreals name. GOOD day!

Humanhybrid.

I understand that you have a clear view on the current conflict, and I certainly understand what Robert Fisk believes*. I also know that you are not interested in other points of view, or that you don't believe that they are valid. Fine.

Also, I can quote as many unbiased oreven counter-biased sources as I can find (recent sources in my posts included the UN and the Guardian, neither of whom are pro-Israel) and you can always respond with an angry editorial. Fine.

However, the majority of this thread discussed (a) the circumstances that led to the present conflict, (b) the government and policies of Israel and the rest of the Arab world, and (c) ways of resolving the conflict. These are all nuanced areas, with many shades of gray and fine distinctions. I think we have generally had some good and reasonable discussion, with real attempts at understanding, over the last few days.

Without a willingness to discuss, without a willingness to even examine context, sentences like "[Israelis] are terrorists" are clearly not arguments, they are simply statements of dogma. All Israelis are clearly not terrorists. The roots of the conflict, as this thread discusses at length, are long and complicated. To call Israelis aggressors without reference to the roots of this conflict, to 1948, to 1956, to 1967, to 1973, and to the sad history of Palestinian/Israeli peacemaking efforts, is useless.

No one likes where the middle east conflict is now. Moving forward requires dialogue, not dogma.

* An article condemning both Israel and the United States, and implying that George Bush planned the September 11 attacks, as Hitler planned the Reichstag fire, seems like a screed, not a coherent point for argument, by the way. But even Fisk, a Lebanese resident and longtime virtiolic critic of Israel, realizes the complexity of the situation more than, say, your dogmatic post. Here is what he wrote on Arafat:

"Arafat is a very immoral person, or maybe very amoral. A very cynical man.... I think that if he ever actually sees a wounded child, he feels compassion like any other human being. But he's also a very cynical politician. And he knows that Sharon was elected to offer security to the Israelis. And Arafat knows that every suicide bombing, every killing, every death of a young Israeli, especially inside Israel, is proof that Sharon's promises are discredited. On the one hand, he can condemn violence. He can be full of contrition. And in the basic human sense, he probably means it. But he also knows very well that every suicide bombing hits at the Sharon policy, and realizes how that helps him."

No side has a monopoly on suffering, or on cruelty.

humanhybrid

Aug 14th, 2004, 1:30 PM

Chris McGreal in Beit Eksa
Thursday July 3, 2003
The Guardian

The Israeli government has confiscated hundreds of acres of Palestinian land on the West Bank this week - for the purpose, Palestinians allege, of building settlements - in flagrant breach of commitments under the US-led road map to peace.

Yesterday, an Israeli official and soldiers were marking out swaths of olive groves and other ground outside the villages of Beit Eksa and Beit Souriq, north of Jerusalem.

"State land. Entry prohibited," read a sign erected on village land in the name of the civil administration of Judea and Samaria, the Israeli body that oversees military rule in the West Bank.

The Palestinians say the Israelis plan to build settlements to link two Jewish towns constructed on land seized from the Arab villages in the 1980s. The accusation would fit with existing Israeli plans for a "greater Jerusalem".

The new land seizure came on the day Israel handed over the West Bank city of Bethlehem to Palestinian police. Church bells pealed in celebration and Palestinian police patrolled the town with their sirens blaring.

One Palestinian cabinet minister, Yasser Abed Rabbo, said Mr Sharon was using the military's withdrawal from Bethlehem yesterday, and Gaza earlier in the week, as a cover for land seizures.

"It's robbery," said Mr Abed Rabbo. "What they are doing is trying to practise ethnic cleansing on the outskirts of Jerusalem. When they steal the land of villagers, they tell them they have no future with nothing to live on.

"The road map says they should stop the confiscation of land, they should stop the demolition of homes, but all the Israelis do is talk of the difficult decisions they have to make."

The first phase of the road map requires Israel to stop confiscating Palestinian property and to freeze all settlement activity. It also obliges Israel to stop demolishing Palestinian homes - but yesterday an Israeli official accompanied by soldiers was touring Beit Eksa and Beit Souriq, marking out the confiscated land and handing out demolition orders.

The soldiers arrived on Monday without warning. Although a seizure order was made, it was only displayed in the headquarters of the civil administration, and the residents of Beit Eksa and Beit Souriq say they knew nothing about it.

"They didn't tell us anything," said Fateh Hababa, a teacher and member of Beit Eksa's village council. "Some people went to speak to them. They told us we could pick our olives but we cannot plough our land or repair the terracing because it's not ours any more.

"All this started 20 years ago ... they have taken 4,000 acres of land over the years. We are being squeezed out. There were 20,000 people living here in 1967. Now there are 1,300."

The seizure was supervised by an Israeli official, Mikha Yaven. He declined to say which department he worked for or to discuss what he was doing. "This is nothing special. My work is enforcing the law. I can't talk," he said.

The Guardian sought an explanation for the land seizures from Talia Fomeh, a spokeswoman for General Amos Gilad, the military administrator of the West Bank.

"It's a bit sensitive," she said. "It's not something we want to respond to without knowing the complicated legal issues involved."

Ariel Sharon and others on the Israeli right have made no secret of their desire to expand Jerusalem deep into the West Bank by building new settlements and incorporating them into the city.

Large Jewish towns, such as Ma'ale Adumim several miles east of Jerusalem, are already administered as though part of the city.

Last month, the Israeli prime minister told his cabinet that settlements should go on expanding despite the road map, but quietly.

"There is a master plan, that doesn't have official status but is widely accepted, to create a Jerusalem metropolis using settlements and roads - a Jewish metropolis," said Yehezkel Lein of the Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem. "Palestinians have been restricted from moving to Jerusalem since the 1990s but they are bringing in more and more Jews with settlements."

Mr Abed Rabbo said the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, raised this week's seizures at his meeting with Mr Sharon on Tuesday but the issue was not resolved.

Mr Sharon's spokesman was not available for comment. Officially, the land was seized under an Ottoman empire law permitting the confiscation of abandoned property. The Israelis say the original owners fled to Jordan in 1967, and have not returned - and so forfeit their properties.

But two of the owners of the confiscated land, one of them Mr Hababa's father, Abdul Karim, were sitting in their homes in Beit Eksa with the deeds to prove their claims.

humanhybrid

Aug 14th, 2004, 1:34 PM

The Quiet War:

Land Expropriation in the Occupied Territories

Ibrahim Matar

Ibrahim Matar is a Palestinian economist from Jerusalem and executive
director of the Institute for Jerusalem Studies.

http://www.mafhoum.com/press3/99S27.htm

humanhybrid

Aug 14th, 2004, 1:48 PM

Israel ploughs on with huge settlement construction
By Ed O'Loughlin, Herald Correspondent in Jerusalem
August 14, 2004

The Israeli Government moved ahead this week with plans to build thousands of new Jewish homes in the occupied West Bank, despite promises to the US and the international community to halt construction on seized Palestinian land.

The Israeli newspaper Maariv revealed that the Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, had authorised the defence ministry to build 800 new houses on West Bank land recently annexed to the settlements of Maale Adumim, to the east of Jerusalem, and Ariel, to the north.

The paper reported that the new projects were part of even broader plans to insert thousands of new Jewish homes into the West Bank, despite Israel's promise to freeze construction under last year's "road map" for peace.

It was confirmed this week that bulldozers had already begun clearing land for a massive new settlement complex which will link Maale Adumim to Jerusalem, cutting off residents of the Arab East of the city from the rest of the occupied territories.

The Israeli Government initially sought to deny that any new construction was taking place, saying the bulldozers were working on plans that had been drawn up many years ago.

"We shouldn't believe anything that is said, we should just monitor what happens on the ground," said Dror Etkes, an expert on settlement construction who works for the Israeli pressure group Peace Now.

"There is no connection between what is said by the Government and what happens on the ground."

Backed by most of the international community, Palestinians say Israel's policy is a land grab intended to determine the borders of a future Palestinian state or prevent one being established.

Half a million Jewish Israelis live in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, land captured by Israel in 1967. Protected by the army, the settlers enjoy superior legal rights to the Arab residents, who live under martial law.

Many right-wing and religious Israelis believe only Jews have a right to live in the biblical land of Israel. Labour governments have also supported settlement in the belief that the Jewish presence in the West Bank and Gaza would protect Israel from invasion.

The Israeli Government says the territories are not occupied but "disputed", and that it has a right to seize and settle land there pending a final settlement to its conflict with the Palestinians.

In recent months Mr Sharon has tied his proposal to evacuate the 7000 Jewish settlers in Gaza - home to 1.3 million Palestinians - to plans to seize and settle more land in the West Bank.

According to media reports, the White House's security adviser on the Middle East, Elliot Abrams, criticised the expansion of the West Bank settlements on a visit to Jerusalem last weekend.

Earlier this year, however, US President George Bush in effect endorsed Israel's territorial ambitions in the West Bank when he said that it should be allowed to keep the larger settlements there in any final peace agreement.

His announcement reversed decades of US policy, which backed international opinion in refusing to recognise "facts on the ground" created by force.

Many Israeli observers say the Government feels that it has a free hand in the territories due to the presidential elections in the US, with both Mr Bush and challenger John Kerry unwilling to risk losing votes from Jews and right-wing Christians who support Israel's claim to the occupied territories.

While construction continues in the established settlements, the Israeli Government has yet to honour its promise to evacuate "unauthorised" settlement outposts constructed by Jewish extremists since 2001.

Peace Now and other groups say there are around 100 such "outposts", of which 50 are eligible for evacuation under the road map.

The Israeli Government says there are fewer than 30, and that it has no obligation to fulfil its road map obligations until the Palestinian Authority honours its promise to halt terrorist attacks by its own militants.

humanhybrid

Aug 14th, 2004, 1:51 PM

See the posts for what they are. :po: http://www.poica.org/casestudies/Al-Mukabber-7-31-02/

blahblahblah

Aug 14th, 2004, 3:22 PM

See the posts for what they are. :po: http://www.poica.org/casestudies/Al-Mukabber-7-31-02/

Actually, I think that much of the settlement activity is wrong and will need to be reversed. Plus, 68% of Israelis think that settlements should be dismantled as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

Peace is not possible from Israeli unilateral moves, however, even a unliateral removal as settlements, as the unilateral withdrawel from Lebanon of Israel showed (despite repeated UN certification of a complete Israeli withdrawal, Hezbollah has fabricated a pretense for war that a part of Lebanon remains occupied, occasionally attacking Israel as a result*). There needs to be both a cessation of violence and a negotiated peace, security and prosperity. We were close a few years ago, but Arafat walked away from the table.

I once again will repeat - Israel is not entirely in the wrong, the Palestinians are not entirely in the wrong, and the surrounding Arab states are using the situation to their advantage and increasing suffering for both sides. The debate over Israeli settlement policy that you have started is actually a useful one. On the other hand, the starting post of this forum, that Israel is like Nazi Germany, is insane, inflamatory, and, as shown in this discussion, demonstratably wrong. DN's quoting of Holocaust-deniers as sources was similarly disturbing. Also bothersome was your assertion that all Israelis are terrorists, which while not as flat-out over-the-top, fails to note any of the complexity and context, just attacking Israel without noting Palestinian actions. This is a complex problem, and the solutions will be complex, so simple name calling will never help.

* For those interested, the area of that Lebanon claims is Shebaa Farms, which the UN certifies as part of the Golan Heights. Lebanon claimed that Syria, in 1951, transferred to it the land containing the Shebaa Farms, and Lebanese officials asked a visiting U.N. diplomat "to check UN archives for copies of the pact." No such records were found. The U.N. Special Envoy in turn invited the Lebanese government to "produce more substantial evidence to back its claim that the area of the Shebaa Farms was Lebanese territory," and a senior source connected to the Lebanese government told The Daily Star that, in 1951, Syria and Lebanon had entered into "a kind of oral agreement" dividing jurisdiction of the farms between them, but that "nothing was documented specifically." According to the same report Lebanon and Syria never registered their "agreement" with the U.N. Indeed "maps produced for the Lebanese army in 1961 and 1966 mark some of the Shebaa Farms - including Zebdine, Fashkoul, Mougr Shebaa and Ramta - but locate them inside Syria."

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 24th, 2004, 2:46 AM

Defiant Noquisi, I hope, hope, hope, that you are not taken in by this nonsense, all it does is fill the world with hate of the worst kind. When fences arent built, when armed guards are no longer posted and controlling who goes where, when people no longer have to have "permission" regarding where they can work and what they can do, when people arent being bulldozed, when runners arent picked off with bullets, when people other than freedom fighters are allowed hospitalization (like pregnant women) then maybe I wont be "taken in".

Really, you call this nonsense? You call my posting various points of view nonsense? You think that *I* am filling the world with hate?

You may have a more utopian view of the world but I do not. My view is quite rounded including information from people who live there and have relatives there, from both sides of the fence.

Maybe someday when you can sit down at a dinner table with both Palestinians and Jews as I have and hear them speak you will also learn the same things I have.

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 24th, 2004, 2:59 AM

Just look to the Native Americans, The Aztecs, Germany's Jews,and countless peoples that were in The Roman's way. Barring outside Arab assistance, the days of the Palestinians are numbered. Nothing in History shows otherwise. You know, its a good thing you post garbage (specifically Native Americans) like this. It keeps me in reality. I really wish you could have been with me during my tour of the rez's. It would have been quite the reality check for you. :fu:

Your still one of the hottest men alive regardless of your uneducated opinion.

The one thing that keeps us alive and strong and getting stronger; we actually sought peace rather than continual fighting AND we have beaten the oppressor at damn near every turn we go. We may not have everything we were supposedly guarenteed by treaties which have been continously broken, but we win a little more each fight we wage. Youd be completely stunned by what the state of Ohio must now give to the Shawnee.

Moral: Never ever agree to something that you are not willing to follow through with and can be beaten with the law. If it doesnt bite you in the ass now, hundreds of years from now it will cost your decendants big time. :2fu:

blahblahblah

Aug 24th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Really, you call this nonsense? You call my posting various points of view nonsense? You think that *I* am filling the world with hate?

In a word: yes.

I can't emphasize enough what was offensive about your posts:

You are posting as your evidence for your opinions:
Sites which deny that the Holocaust occured and which have been factually disproven.
Sites which have been judged by courts in England and New Zealand to be antisemitic in purpose.
Sites which state that the Jews, as a people, are evil (not even Israel, mind you, but Jews by race and ethnicity).

This is very, very nasty. This calls into question your opinions and your sources. And, yes, this spreads hate, pure and simple. I don't care about your opinions on Israel's actions, believe what you want. I do care that you are pushing sites that contain outright lies about the Jewish faith, and creating incitement to hate. Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic -- stating that Jews manufactured the idea of the Holocaust, that they have secret plans to take over the world, and that they are evil IS antisemtic.

One of the sites you quoted literally asks what is the best weapon against the "evil of Judiasm!" I think any sane person would consider this outside the normal discourse, and any reasonable person of good will should reject such hatred.

Argue whatever you want, as bombastically as you want, about Israel -- discussion is not a bad thing. I, too, have talked with both sides, and, as I keep stating, the reality of the conflict is much more complex than the arguments of abuse and terror that either you or the most pro-Israel pundits put forth (though you are on opposite sides of the issue, of course). In any case, it would be worth reading through the other posts in this topic, to get an idea of the nuances argued about during your absence from the board over the past week or two.

But please distance yourself from sites that encourage the destruction of the Jewish people. That isn't what you believe... is it?

substand

Aug 30th, 2004, 10:37 PM

I have to agree with blah^3 on that last one...

BUT THE REAL ISSUE IS ISREAL IS PLUNDERING THE LAND OUT UNDER THE FEET OF THE PALISTINIAN PEOPLE.

So is Arafat... get rid of him and you improve your chance for resolution by an order of magnitude- at least. Well, I suppose good ole Yassir isn't plundering the land, nor the Israelis, if truth be told. The whole country is mostly a shithole, and mostly worthless except for its religious value. So its hard to call any of it plundering. But what Yassir is doing is making himself rich, not from plundering the land, but by plundering the palestinians themselves and the people who think they are helping their cause.

humanhybrid

Aug 31st, 2004, 1:50 AM

But what Yassir is doing is making himself rich, not from plundering the land, but by plundering the palestinians themselves and the people who think they are helping their cause. OK! What is he plundering Substand? And how has he profited from the Palestinians? Besides being a target! I think he has stood by his people in the face of probable death and dishoner. Let us be entertained. Heresss Substand!

blahblahblah

Aug 31st, 2004, 1:25 PM

OK! What is he plundering Substand? And how has he profited from the Palestinians? Besides being a target! I think he has stood by his people in the face of probable death and dishoner. Let us be entertained. Heresss Substand!

In my continuing effort to insert facts into the debate, and then get out of the way, this is a rather easy point.

Forbes estimated, based on work done by Palestinians, that Arafat is one of the six richest political leaders in the world, with a personal wealth of over $300 million, all of which comes from money skimmed off of aid going to the Palestinian people or other sources of income intended for the Palestinian Authority. To quote Forbes: "Arafat has feasted on all sorts of funds flowing into the P.A., including aid money, Israeli tax transfers and revenue from a casino and Coca-Cola bottler." The details from Forbes are here, including a discussion with the Salam Fayyad, the Palestinian Finance Minister who is trying to stamp out Arafat's corruption: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0317/049.html

It gets worse, however, with a group of accountants hired by the PA itself estimating Arafat's worth at between 1 and 3 billion. Some of this came directly from price gouging his own people: "Palestinians certainly paid dearly for something else Fayyad uncovered: a system of monopolies in commodities -- like flour and cement -- that Arafat handed out to his cronies, who then turned around and fleeced the public. [Finance Minister] Fayyad says it could accurately be seen as gouging his own people. 'And especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral, actually.'"

Source, with a lot more detail,
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml

Compounding the problems, Arafat keeps refusing to agree to anticorruption measures, despite the will of the Palestinians. Accoding to a poll from the Palestine Politics Research Center, 87 percent of Palestinians think that there is corruption in the Palestinian administration and that those accused of the corruption are roaming free and 92 percent of Palestinians ask for urgent reform in the administration. 92% of people asking for urgent reform is as close to unanimity as polls will ever achieve!

Regardless of your views on Sharon, there is no doubt that Arafat is a crook of the worst kind, profiting off of the charity others give to the Palestinians and squeezing them for every dime with abusive monopolies.

substand

Aug 31st, 2004, 4:53 PM

OK! What is he plundering Substand?

I really can't say it better than blahblahblah just did, so see above. I only hope it was as entertaining as you had envisioned.

humanhybrid

Aug 31st, 2004, 7:58 PM

I really can't say it better than blahblahblah just did, so see above. I only hope it was as entertaining as you had envisioned. I envisioned Substand a little diffrent. Its deverting the attension of the activities of Isreal and the US. What Arafat has and what he gives to his crownies for resale far exceeds what Isreal and the US is doing in my book, and what he is worth. Lets take a look at Bush and Dicks worth and how they are sending our children to die for lies while the crownies of this administation makes huge profits in reconstruction and oil. Its deversion from the current activities that Isreal and and the US. good day! http://www.p-p-o.com/Eng/defultE.htm

blahblahblah

Aug 31st, 2004, 8:59 PM

I envisioned Substand a little diffrent. Its deverting the attension of the activities of Isreal and the US. What Arafat has and what he gives to his crownies for resale far exceeds what Isreal and the US is doing in my book, and what he is worth. Lets take a look at Bush and Dicks worth and how they are sending our children to die for lies while the crownies of this administation makes huge profits in reconstruction and oil. Its deversion from the current activities that Isreal and and the US. good day! http://www.p-p-o.com/Eng/defultE.htm

The fragmented sentences make this a bit confusing, but this is the best understanding I have of the your argument: Arafat's embezzlement is not significant, but merely a distraction from the activities of Israel and the US. Also, that Dick Cheney and George Bush are profiting more financially anyway.

First, on the significance of Arafat's corruption, it certainly is real (you quoted Arafat's site, but the information I gave you is from the Palestinian Authority's own ministry of finance!) and is generally considered to be one of the major issues facing the Palestinian people, in addition to their conflict with Israel. It is a major cause of Palestinian poverty, ineffective government, and a key reason why the Palestinian population is slipping into chaos. This does not mean that the conflict with Israel isn't the biggest cause of the conflict, and that there is not blame to be placed there, but that Arafat and his corruption is a major factor in keeping the cycle of violence going. Read any Palestinian newspaper to see this, if you don't believe me, but avoid the state papers run by Arafat -- a man who wouldn't allow the books of one of the most prominent Palestinian intellectuals, Edward Said, to be published in the Palestinian Authority because it questioned his rule.

In any case, $1-3 billion of embezzled aid is hardly insignificant - It is the equivalent of a year's salary of every person in the Palestinian territories. A truly huge crime that should be noted by anyone seeking a solution to the conflict.

As to the second point, and as more of a side note for those interested, the US is fortunate enough to have a pretty transparent financial process. According to the very, very nonpartisan "Buying of the President" site for the Center for Public Integrity, Cheney is worth somewhere between $19m and $80m, all of these were assets he had before becoming VP. Bush is worth somewhere between $8M and $21M (a large portion of which is either his ranch, or from a trust fund), also all before becoming president. Now, I am not a fan of Bush or Cheney, but there certainly is not the equivalent of between one and three billion dollars of embezzlment going on, regardless of any shady dealings in Iraq.
Even if you think that the president and vice president and their cronies have embezzled every dollar given to US firms to rebuild Iraq (somehow not actually spending a dime on any actual reconstruction, hiring, etc.), that is still "only" $1.9 billion.

I say this not to excuse the US for its actions, or to defend Cheney and Bush, but merely to give some perspective on how big Arafat's thefts from his own people have been.

humanhybrid

Sep 1st, 2004, 1:53 AM

In any case, $1-3 billion of embezzled aid is hardly insignificant - It is the equivalent of a year's salary of every person in the Palestinian territories. A truly huge crime that should be noted by anyone seeking a solution to the conflict. This is the case, a case that you nor I will be able to tally. You prove to me and to your sources the method by which an embezzlement took place in the amount of $1-3 billion. What method was used! Obviously the the worth of the PLO is what perhaps your describing or your sources for undermining purposes. And as a Palestinian organazation its PEANUTS compared to what Isreal is getting from the world community, and thats not to mention the war machines being furnished. good day!

dutchie

Sep 1st, 2004, 2:42 AM

humanhybrid

Sep 1st, 2004, 5:34 PM

Ok! Dutchie your two cents are a valuable asset to us here at this forum, Now are you hiding any dirty money that we dont know about. You must contribute to this forum. :french:

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 1st, 2004, 10:07 PM

But please distance yourself from sites that encourage the destruction of the Jewish people. That isn't what you believe... is it? Of course you neglect to mention sites and materials published by Jewish people that I have also posted. If you want one sided debates you picked the wrong person to have them with.

I dont spread hate, I present fact. The fact is that those things are for view, whether I agree with them or not. The fact is that the very same people who cry out for peace are also the same ones tearing each other apart. If you want to pretend its not happening by distancing yourself from it, by all means continue. I choose not to. I am not afraid to look at anything from all angles nor look my enemy in the eyes.

If there was something relevent on a site that had something to do with the topic then I specifically mentioned that part, not anything else. If you go beyond that and try to drag that in as if I am using it then you are wrong and that is your problem. Dont misquote me, dont put in words I didnt post and dont blame me for your lack of looking at what I posted for what it is, not what you think it is.

I will not stand by and think that Israel is any less innocent than the people it accuses of terrorism. Believe lies and misinformation if you want to but dont expect me to join you.

I will not sit here and think that Israel is the only country doing it, despite what you have commented about my posts. Since this thread is more specific to Israel(how many more times must I repeat this), that is what I have commented on. I dont live in some utopia and cling to some kind of "spread the love" rhetoric. The ugliness of real life is happening all over the world and I neither ignore it or glorify it. I do keep an eye on it. If you cant read the title of this thread and figure that one out I cant help you.

Israelies are neither more or less violent than any other country. They are not some peace loving colony of flower children. If thats what you want to believe then by all means do so. Dont expect me too and dont tell me what to do. If you want to live up to your nic thats your decision but dont drag me into your self induced love child stupor about Israel. I dont buy it and Ive got plenty of Jewish freinds that have proved it to me. Dont blame me because they cant stand what their own are doing. If you didnt read that in any of my posts then maybe some education in reading comprehension might be helpful.

If I see something blatantly one-sided I will post counter to it, bottom line. In any debate all sides should be presented for discussion and that is what I do. If its not nice enough for you then skip my posts. I deal in reality with all its beauty as well as its ugliness. Its not like it doesnt exist if you choose to ignore it.

Im sorry but I just do not have enough money for all the tissue it appears needed when someone cries about my posts. You may be offended about what I post but I am truly offended by you misreading and misquoting mine. In other words your simplistic ignorance is annoying. If you want to post ignorance go ahead, but dont expect me to sit by and not answer to it if it includes info I have posted or is directed towards me.

My opinion is mine and no one elses. However, I learned most of what I know and got most of my information from Jewish people, including some of the websites I have posted which were brought to my attention by them. How many times must I repeat this?

Ill make this as simple as I can....if you dont like what I post, DONT READ IT. If you read it and dont like it, dont cry and expect me to make it better for you. :bird:

substand

Sep 1st, 2004, 11:25 PM

Bah. Besides the fact all of you fail to recognize corruption is present in all governmental instruments of ALL countries in the world - and yes, the Middle Eastern governments, pro- or anti Israel make no exception - so the whole point presented here is a bit hypocritical on both sides, I fail to see the relevance toward the initial thread topic. Are we now resorting to slinging mud to strengthen our POVs?!

While it is true that corruption is present everywhere, it is hardly so egregious as Arafat's. The equivalence of Arafat's smuggling if George Bush had done it would be (taking the median income of 40k/household and 3 ppl/household - i took median rather than 80k+ mean and a low ppl/household to make up for it) $4,000,000,000,000. I think thats a low estimate too, since the median was cut in half while the ppl/household was not nearly cut in half. 4 trillion dollars if Arafat was able to do in the US what he is doing to the palestinians... Now is a difference transparent? That's over 1/3 of the entire US GDP.

This is the case, a case that you nor I will be able to tally. You prove to me and to your sources the method by which an embezzlement took place in the amount of $1-3 billion. What method was used! Obviously the the worth of the PLO is what perhaps your describing or your sources for undermining purposes. And as a Palestinian organazation its PEANUTS compared to what Isreal is getting from the world community, and thats not to mention the war machines being furnished. good day!

He cited relevant sources to you... do you absolutely refuse to beleive anything you hear outside of informationclearinghouse and you and your ivory tower mates' collective brain?

I envisioned Substand a little diffrent.

I think I'll just let blahblahblah school you, he's doing a good job that I couldn't hope to do. You might help your cause if you cited relevent facts like he does. And he does a great job of pulling up relevance on all sides of the issue. I vote him member factfinder of the month.

Of course you neglect to mention sites and materials published by Jewish people that I have also posted. If you want one sided debates you picked the wrong person to have them with.

DN, I dont mean to be mean or anything, and you know that, but the sites you posted are mostly horrific examples of antisemitism that are at a maximim, loosely based on fact. I'm not sure I should even go that far. Jews do not eat babies for breakfast... =P

humanhybrid

Sep 2nd, 2004, 1:31 AM

He cited relevant sources to you... do you absolutely refuse to beleive anything you hear outside of informationclearinghouse and you and your ivory tower mates' collective brain? I think its biased, his source! I tend not so much to agree and that is my RIGHT!! Got it. He "ARAFAT" is the PLO and he will use his money for any cause for the Palisianian people if it meant that Isreal would stop plundering the poor Palestinian peoples land, and then calling them terrorists because they retaliate. Stop deverting the actions of the nation of Isreal. good day!

blahblahblah

Sep 2nd, 2004, 7:28 PM

I think its biased, his source! I tend not so much to agree and that is my RIGHT!! Got it. He "ARAFAT" is the PLO and he will use his money for any cause for the Palisianian people if it meant that Isreal would stop plundering the poor Palestinian peoples land, and then calling them terrorists because they retaliate. Stop deverting the actions of the nation of Isreal. good day!

My source is the Palestinian Authority's own finance ministry. This has been confirmed by both the UN and EU, in addition to more potentially biased sources like the the US. Take a look at the links. This is unarguable -- the Palestinian government itself is accusing Arafat of corruption, and the relative scale is above any other leader except possibly the Preisdent of Turkmenistan. Come on, you can't really believe that somehow this is all fake.

Also, is "good day" supposed to be read in a friendly manner? I have always viewed it as sort of an angry statemnt, like "GOOD....DAY" followed by the electronic equivalent of a slammed door.

blahblahblah

Sep 2nd, 2004, 7:44 PM

I dont spread hate, I present fact. The fact is that those things are for view, whether I agree with them or not. The fact is that the very same people who cry out for peace are also the same ones tearing each other apart. If you want to pretend its not happening by distancing yourself from it, by all means continue. I choose not to. I am not afraid to look at anything from all angles nor look my enemy in the eyes.

If there was something relevent on a site that had something to do with the topic then I specifically mentioned that part, not anything else. If you go beyond that and try to drag that in as if I am using it then you are wrong and that is your problem. Dont misquote me, dont put in words I didnt post and dont blame me for your lack of looking at what I posted for what it is, not what you think it is.

I will not sit here and think that Israel is the only country doing it, despite what you have commented about my posts. Since this thread is more specific to Israel(how many more times must I repeat this), that is what I have commented on. I dont live in some utopia and cling to some kind of "spread the love" rhetoric. The ugliness of real life is happening all over the world and I neither ignore it or glorify it. I do keep an eye on it. If you cant read the title of this thread and figure that one out I cant help you.

Actually, the title of the thread is that Israel is the equivalent of Nazi Germany -- which is why I have tried to inject facts into a pretty ridiculous assertion. I have never said that Israel is innocent of crimes, nor are the Palestinians innocent, or that the solution is to spread the love, so stop putting words in my mouth and playing your silly rhetorical tricks. I simply stated, as I have again and again, that the conflict is complex. How many times do I have to say that?

Israelies are neither more or less violent than any other country. They are not some peace loving colony of flower children.

Guy, stop putting words in my mouth - when did I say Israel was innocent or peace loving? We had people on this site who were factually incorrect on issues having to do with the founding of the country, its policies, etc. I corrected those. Stop trying to shift the argument.

Of course you neglect to mention sites and materials published by Jewish people that I have also posted. If you want one sided debates you picked the wrong person to have them with....I dont buy it and Ive got plenty of Jewish freinds that have proved it to me.

Yes, yes, tons of Jewish friends, I understand. Tons of Jewish friends pointing you at sites by Holocaust deniers, fine.

I hope that you can understand, however, why your references are upsetting. If I pointed you at a newspaper article quoted on a site about how the Cherokees actually were never exploited by the colonists, and that they are secretly trying to destor the world, you would have every reason to wonder where my head was, and to be upset that I would do such a thing. This is the equivalent - realize that this is what was upsetting, not the arguments of the articles themselves.

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 2nd, 2004, 8:26 PM

I hope that you can understand, however, why your references are upsetting. If I pointed you at a newspaper article quoted on a site about how the Cherokees actually were never exploited by the colonists, and that they are secretly trying to destor the world, you would have every reason to wonder where my head was, and to be upset that I would do such a thing. This is the equivalent - realize that this is what was upsetting, not the arguments of the articles themselves. No, I wouldnt since it is true. It wasnt until much later after the invaders had established themselves here that they exploited Cherokee people. What is your point? The difference is that I am not prone to interjecting a ton of emotion into a post unless it is exceptionally ignorant or actually has relevancy. The whole situation in the M.E. is upsetting.

Why dont you go directly to the source that is actually spreading the hate instead of to my post pointing it out? No, instead you act the omnipotent and accuse me of it. Big ass difference.

Actually, the title of the thread is that Israel is the equivalent of Nazi Germany Read the first post and be enlightened.

Yes, yes, tons of Jewish friends, I understand. Tons of Jewish friends pointing you at sites by Holocaust deniers, fine.
so stop putting words in my mouth and playing your silly rhetorical tricks. :dummy:

I hope my posts are upsetting, I hope people read them and are moved to do something about it. I hope people choose to educate themselves instead of being blind to what is really going on.

The problem is that rather than doing that, you think that *I* am the enemy rather than the person pointing out the obvious. :uh:

blahblahblah

Sep 2nd, 2004, 9:50 PM

Okay, it has now descended into an individual disagreement between me and DN, complete with smilies of people raising their middle finger, the height of argumentation. We are never going to agree, you are never going to see why I find your thread so offensive (NOT your opinions) and, thanks to the nature of the internet, we are unlikely to come to blows. My interest in this thread was factual correction, and I think I did my piece -- some people will never be convinced, some people just want to argue, and some people have legitimate differences of opinion.

Duchie, you called it.

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 3rd, 2004, 3:07 AM

We are never going to agree, you are never going to see why I find your thread so offensive (NOT your opinions) and, thanks to the nature of the internet, we are unlikely to come to blows. My interest in this thread was factual correction If you are really THAT interested in posting factual correction then why post ignorance? Again, read the first post and become enlightened. Otherwise, dont post it directing it towards me and expect me to sit by and agree with you. Now that you are very obviously incorrect, you take an easy out by defering to Dutchies post. Nice try.

For the record, I dont "hate" Jews, I dont have tons of Jewish freinds and NONE of them deny the Holocaust. I did not start this thread, I do not own this thread. You make all sorts of wild accusations about my posts without reading what they are actually about. Then you want me to see how offensive my posts are when you cant even keep mine in perspective. You do not see any reason at all in my pointing out the truth of the entire problem and why I have taken the time to do so. In fact, you have ignored it.

You want to be accurate yet you are not.

Get a life. :dork:

humanhybrid

Sep 3rd, 2004, 3:51 PM

Defiant Noquisi, for what it is worth. I think that you are exemplarily and articulate in your posts. You know that though! :scatter:

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 3rd, 2004, 5:34 PM

Thanks HH.

This really did go on longer than I had intended but I am tired of Israel being made out to be so innocent and trustworthy when they are no different. Sharon has worked his way up from being a scheming lacky to arrogance incarnate and I get stabbed for expressing the obvious publically. The detractors can bite me. :yummm:

humanhybrid

Sep 7th, 2004, 3:55 PM

blahblahblah

Sep 8th, 2004, 1:30 PM

If you are really THAT interested in posting factual correction then why post ignorance? Again, read the first post and become enlightened. Otherwise, dont post it directing it towards me and expect me to sit by and agree with you. Now that you are very obviously incorrect, you take an easy out by defering to Dutchies post. Nice try.

Huh? Really, I have just become very confused. First, you have never challenged the factual correctness of my posts - seriously, nobody has - I have avoided pro-Israel sites, and have been quoting direct from cites that would generally be considered either "objective" or anti-Israel: the UN, the Guardian, etc. Where am I posting ignorance? Where am I suggesting that Israel is entirely in the right?

You make all sorts of wild accusations about my posts without reading what they are actually about. Then you want me to see how offensive my posts are when you cant even keep mine in perspective.

The only accusation I made was correct and indisputed. You were quoting from Neo-nazi and Holocaust-denying sites.

I can accept that you did not quote from them because they were neo-nazis. I can accept that we can disagree about the nature of the conflict. But I think it would have been reasonable to expect you to say, "You are right, these are horrible sites, they do not express my views, I am sorry I referred to them. However, I think my arguments are still valid." You did not. That, my friend, is what is annoying me - not your views.

I was not quoting Duchie's advice to end the thread to get out of a discussion, but merely because we are not longer having one -- what information are you bringing to the table? At this point I think your increasingly antagonistic sign-offs and ad-hominem attacks speak louder than any future points in this thread.

blahblahblah

Sep 8th, 2004, 1:58 PM

A group of prominent Jewish rabbis have asked the Israeli army not to flinch from killing Palestinian civilians in the context of the ongoing military campaign against armed groups resisting the occupation. http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm

Prominent is the wrong word. These guys are kooks representing the hard right settlers, and not the Jewish religion as a whole. There is actually talk about prosecuting them in Israel under laws stopping the incitement to violence, as has been done with other extremist rabbis in the past. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=rabbis&itemNo=474996
I think we can all agree that these folks are defintely part of the problem, but not representative of either Jews in general or Israelis as a whole.

As a cautionary tale, it is worth pointing out that the Al-Jazeera piece is quite inflamatory, stating that there is a talmudic maxim that it is good to kill non-Jews. This is old anti-Jewish rhetoric that makes Jews seem evil in general, as well as being inaccurate. Nothing, however, excuses extremists from either side.

humanhybrid

Sep 9th, 2004, 1:29 PM

Prominent is the wrong word. These guys are kooks representing the hard right settlers, and not the Jewish religion as a whole. There is actually talk about prosecuting them in Israel under laws stopping the incitement to violence, as has been done with other extremist rabbis in the past. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...s&itemNo=474996
I think we can all agree that these folks are defintely part of the problem, but not representative of either Jews in general or Israelis as a whole.

As a cautionary tale, it is worth pointing out that the Al-Jazeera piece is quite inflamatory, stating that there is a talmudic maxim that it is good to kill non-Jews. This is old anti-Jewish rhetoric that makes Jews seem evil in general, as well as being inaccurate. Nothing, however, excuses extremists from either side I guess your right! I admit it and your evidence is written down throughout the old testament. And further more the jew is not chosen over any other human. I am not will not be enslaved to the jew under any circumstance. GOOD! day

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 9th, 2004, 3:38 PM

At this point I think your increasingly antagonistic sign-offs and ad-hominem attacks speak louder than any future points in this thread. As if your personal attacks towards me and "mistakes" such as me owning this thread and other things havent made this point already.

Thor

Sep 9th, 2004, 7:57 PM

America is right with supporting Israel. Israel, the Jews, whatever you want to call these people, call them. Have you ever been to Israel? I have. The difference between the Israeli side of the separation gate between the Israelis and the Palestinians is remarkable. The Jews have class, they have attitude, they have HOPE. The Palestinian side is a ghetto, a slum. One only needs to walk around the Mideast and see the difference. The Jews are a proud people, willing to take care of their own, while the Palestinian side looks like any slum in the U.S. you might visit.

You who support the Palestinians there might as well stand up for the ghetto dwellers in the U.S. and say "it's only because of economic conditions that these people live like they do". B.S. It's because they ARE pigs, lazy, and want someone to support them. Same story in the Middle East, "help me, I can't help myself!" Quit wasting your money and time on those that just feel sorry for themselves, "God helps those who help themselves" even plays to those of you don't believe in God. These people are worthless, grow up, get a brain!

Defiant Noquisi

Sep 9th, 2004, 9:13 PM

Yeah, I suppose that if the Palestinians werent constantly barraged with artillery, bullets and bulldozers it wouldnt look like they live in slums. What a concept!

I also suppose that they would be capable of helping themselves if they didnt have a dictatorship looming over them that doesnt take into consideration what they want, (aside from land, thats a lost discussion, Israel has it so no argument there) tells them what jobs they can have, when and where they can work...etc. They are subjugated to concentration camp conditions and are supposed to like it? Hell, the US didnt even treat us Indians that bad, almost. And you arrogantly think the Palestinians should just up and kiss Israels ass? HA!

How high and mighty of you to think a group of people as worthless. Blatant racism! :dummy:

Thor

Sep 9th, 2004, 9:40 PM

humanhybrid

Sep 10th, 2004, 12:17 AM

those that side against the Israelis haven't seen the side of the Palestinians. Much like our ghetto dwellers here, they only want government handouts and welfare. They have NO PRIDE and no self-motivation. I've been to the gate that separates them, there's no question who pulls theirselves up by their bootstraps and has the resolve to create a better life for themselves...DN you need to visit the Mideast, it's apparent you haven't seen it for yourself.. I think its apparent that although you may have been at the gates that seperate the Palistinians and Isrealits and have heard the jewish racism, its understood that you are looking at the surface ONLY!. If for one moment you think that we all here are stupid as to what the state of Isreal is doing to the Palisinians then you have got another thing coming BUBBS. Ya you can do alot with whats been handed to them, "the jews" They are the charity case especially with the support they get from the US what to speak of other supporters. Your a shame! good day! http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-09-09-isarel-disobey_x.htm Many Palestinians have argued that the formation of Israel was a case of solving European problems on Arab land. Let us look a little more closely at what that solution has consisted in. A single people is thought, in the name of its religion, to have primary dominion over that land. There are others living on the land; they are to be accorded secondary rights. (Although Israel claims its Palestinian citizens possess equal rights, such a claim is ludicrous. It is well known that the Palestinians are unable to form parliamentary coalitions with the Jewish parties that universally reject them, they do not enjoy equal municipal funding in their towns, they are dispossessed of their land, they are denied equal access to education, and so on.) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6883.htm