Prehistoric Egypt

[TC]

This coming Saturday I'll be leaving for Egypt with a study group from Stockholm's University for a week examining early climate impact and its effects on culture from the last 10,000 years.

The focus of the study is a native group of people that make the transition from stone age to an advanced people, and it begins with the buried remains near the town of Badari, the finds indicate an age over 40 centuries before Christ.

Examining the remains of the quite well preserved bodies, they found husks of barley, and since this does not grow wild in Egypt, this means they cultivated it and had a climate that allowed this without the use of substantial irrigation.

Among the remains where also tools of advanced workmanship, they built boats, wove fine linen and carpets, even created perfumes! and had domesticated animals.

They had pictograph writing that displayed their life style in detail, well beyond anything produced even in the neolithic. Pigments were diverse and the use of geometric symbols were incorporated with the artwork.

No one knows where these early Egyptians came from, its believed this group was of Nubian/Ethiopian/ and Libyan bloodlines mixed with Semitic or Armenoid, and they inhabited most of north Africa.

There will be two seminars on a once lush and fertile landscape that allowed this group to flourish, and the impact of desert conditions that forced later generations to hold to the banks of the Nile for survival. The big part of this ( for me anyway) is the display of drill core samples from below the sand levels of todays northern Sahara, revealing an eden of unimaginable fertility.

Looking at the desert of todays Egypt its hard to vision a lush landscape, even more interesting is what brought on the sudden change.

As far as I know, the hotel has some sort of Internet cafe, so I hope to get on line now and again, and I have no idea where the hell I'll buy my scotch...

[JenaS62]

Very cool trip TC! I have read that the sphinx was eroded by water. Do keep us posted on your trip.

[Doc Velocity]

I've always been interested in the possible existence of a prehistoric super-civilization, one most likely originating in the Mediterranean/North African region, but with colonies all over the planet.

Many enormous ground structures from North America to the UK to Egypt to the Far East seem to predate conventional archaeological record, and their apparent ages are so inconsistent with with what we think we know about human evolution and civilization that science won't even attempt to explain them.

The Great Sphinx, for example, was already very ancient, forgotten, and had fallen into disrepair when it was rediscovered by the ancient Egyptians of three to four thousand years ago. Some modern Egyptologists have noted that the body of the Sphinx is eroded NOT by ages of desert wind, but by ages of torrential rain.

Given that the body of the Sphinx was buried in sand up until fairly modern times, this extensive water erosion could have only taken place at some time in the long distant past, when North Africa — what is now the Sahara Desert — was, indeed, a lush and rain-soaked landscape.

Which would have been in the vicinity of 10,000 years ago.

Conventional Science scoffs at the notion of an advanced megalithic culture so far back in prehistory. It doesn't fit in with accepted archaeological dogma.

Just so, Science scoffs at the notion of a megalithic culture behind the gigantic submerged formations off the coast of Japan, formations that have been submerged for over 9000 years, by best estimates.

In North America, massive ground structures in the area of Chillicothe, Ohio, are so extensive that they cannot even be perceived as a single structure except from an aerial vantage. These structures dwarf the base area of the Great Pyramid of Kufu, and they can be attributed to no known indigenous culture of North America. These ground structures were already ancient and forgotten when the first known humans entered the area, some 11,000 years ago.

Now, such evidence would seem to indicate the existence of a very advanced engineering civilization upon the face of the Earth — perhaps all over the face of the Earth — at a time when modern Science tells us our ancestors were still running around in animal skins and huddling in caves, with no written language.

I think new eyes and new ideas and new research will reveal the truth in this century, but we're first going to have to fight the dogmatism and narrow thinking of 20th Century Science to make any breakthroughs.

— Doc Velocity

[Traveler]

When it comes to the politics of science, good luck getting anything done!

[Beatnik Bob]

Enjoy your Egyptian "safari" SR!



Given that the body of the Sphinx was buried in sand up until fairly modern times, this extensive water erosion could have only taken place at some time in the long distant past, when North Africa — what is now the Sahara Desert — was, indeed, a lush and rain-soaked landscape.

There are also large salt deposits in the Sahara and North Africa, indicating that an ocean or sea may have been over Africa.

I thought this was exceedingly interesting: http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/ancient_mysteries.aspx

Concerning the course of the Nile, it has indeed been discovered that the Nile used to stretch from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, long ago: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,923112-1,00.html

[Beatnik Bob]

Hey Doc, you would probably find these two videos, by British researcher Andrew Collins to be interesting:

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[TC]

Interesting find in the northern Niger desert, a grave site containing some 200 human skeletons was found by a group of dinosaur bone hunters from the university of Chicago. Everywhere they dug they came up with bones that shouldn't have been there, in other words non desert species. the remains of Crocodiles, large river fish and pasturing animals where scattered around an area that is now the driest part of the Sahara.

Hunting harpoons were found as well and huge remains of perch, suggesting the existence of a large fresh water lake, dating the bones and tools puts this group ( called Kiffians) at between 8,000 and 10,000 years old!! And these people were tall, with some skeletons over 6ft, remarkable for that age of man.

I believe further research is going to some day unlock the past history of this once lush and fertile plain and the fantastic cultures that preceded the first Egyptian dynasty, as well as answering who really built the Sphinx.

Climate study will play a large part in understanding what took place there some 10,000 years ago, and give us a picture of a race of people heather to undiscovered and understood. We have for to long relied on out dated research and study from the 50s that has literally over looked this garden of eden. And I believe it will one day re-write history as to who really started civilization .

[Doc Velocity]

Hunting harpoons were found as well and huge remains of perch, suggesting the existence of a large fresh water lake, dating the bones and tools puts this group ( called Kiffians) at between 8,000 and 10,000 years old!! And these people were tall, with some skeletons over 6ft, remarkable for that age of man.

Interesting to note that tall humans are a recurring anomaly in paleo-archaeology... They shouldn't be where they are found, and yet they are. The Tarim mummies in China, for instance, are tall, Caucasoid, red-headed enigmas, representatives of a pretty fucking technically sophisticated ancient civilization that, frankly, we're just starting to uncover... Their very existence has forced Science to rewrite the Copper Age, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

In North America, the indigenous people of Utah still have folklore about a race of extinct red-headed giants, and a few of their skeletons may have been recovered from the mountains there in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

The Hopi Indians of the desert southwest maintain in their ancient traditions the story of a White Brother from the East who would someday return (hasn't yet). Strangely, this White Brother/White Father story is echoed through indigenous cultures of South America, as well, including some provocative descriptions of red hair and beards (not Spaniards).

There's also a fucking Caucasian tribe out there in the Andes somewhere.

And now you mention these tall, sophisticated humans of North Africa dating back possibly 10,000 years.

Yeah, I think we're on the verge of rediscovering something fucking astonishing — possibly that a super civilization did, in fact, exist in prehistory, maybe a global civilization to rival our own.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

The Tarim mummies in China, for instance, are tall, Caucasoid, red-headed enigmas
They're not enigmas.

They're members of a specific tribe, the "Tocharians." Who, to this day, are a group who live near Tibet (in the Tarim Basin: Taklamakan Desert), and are of Mongoloid descent, and have red hair.

They were never particularly advanced. Their only noteworthy aspect is red hair.


In North America, the indigenous people of Utah still have folklore about a race of extinct red-headed giants,
No, that was actually the Inca who believe that. The Inca say it was these people that helped them build their famous stone walls. So Peru, not Utah. North American Indians don't have any belief in red-heads. And their belief of the "Great White Spirit" doesn't refer to caucasians. Hopis actually call European whites "false whites" who are greedy, unenlightened, and steal land and resources. They await the coming of the "true white spirit."


And actually, in Central America, there is more proof that an advanced group of Africans came to the region than whites. In contemporary terms, this group was known as the "Olmec."

[Doc Velocity]

They're not enigmas. They're members of a specific tribe, the "Tocharians." Who, to this day, are a group who live near Tibet (in the Tarim Basin: Taklamakan Desert), and are of Mongoloid descent, and have red hair.
Those are the modern descendants of interbreeding between the Caucasoid and Monogloid of ages past. The Caucasoid were technically far more advanced than the Mongols they encountered some 5000 years ago. Their fabrics were sophisticated weaves, their clothing fine, and their metal tools and weapons were at least 500 years ahead of the Bronze Age.

These ancient Europeans were styling and profiling while the Mongol nomads were still drinking horse blood and wearing pony skins.


North American Indians don't have any belief in red-heads.
In a word, wrong. The Ute and Paiute have traditions of an ancient war with the Pahi-zoho, the giant red-heads, who had a nasty habit of terrorizing the area indian tribes and eating their children. The Ute and Paiute called in a few other friendly tribes and drove the Pahi-zoho to the earth, eradicated them, or at least chased them the hell out of Paiute territory.

Interestingly, in more modern times (early 20th Century), a number of tall, red-headed skeletons were recovered from guano mines in Utah, lending credibility to the Paiute stories. Supposedly, some of these skeletal remains still exist in a private museum in Colorado.


And their belief of the "Great White Spirit" doesn't refer to caucasians. Hopis actually call European whites "false whites" who are greedy, unenlightened, and steal land and resources. They await the coming of the "true white spirit."
I would suggest you bone up on your indigenous lore, Bob. May I suggest Frank Waters' landmark work, The Book of the Hopi, which is required reading for understanding Hopi traditions.

The Hopi are pretty emphatic that they are the oldest people in North America, although they do acknowledge the assistance of the subterranean "Ant People" and a character to whom they refer as the True White Brother from the East. He taught them everything they knew about hunting, farming, construction, medicine, etc, and he vowed to return.

In point of fact, when Spaniards entered the Three Mesas area of the American Southwest in the 1500s, the Hopi actually thought they WERE the True White Brothers from the East. They were dismayed to discover that the Conquistadors couldn't pass the "secret handshake," and the Hopi then knew these interlopers were false white brothers, okay.

So, the Hopi are still waiting for the True White Brother to return with the missing piece of their sacred tablet.


And actually, in Central America, there is more proof that an advanced group of Africans came to the region than whites. In contemporary terms, this group was known as the "Olmec."
Nope. The broad-nosed, thick-lipped Olmec stone heads to which you allude do not depict Africans, but, rather, they depict Indonesians, who undoubtedly colonized South America across the South Pacific in the long ancient past. The stonework is undeniably indonesian.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I've been studying all this shit since the 1970s. You aren't going to slip in anything on me.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

Those are the modern descendants of interbreeding between the Caucasoid and Monogloid of ages past. The Caucasoid were technically far more advanced than the Mongols they encountered some 5000 years ago. Their fabrics were sophisticated weaves, their clothing fine, and their metal tools and weapons were at least 500 years ahead of the Bronze Age.
Even if that were true, that's not particularly impressive or groundbreaking.
Also, Egypt was more advanced.

And I'd like to point out that those mummies near Tibet were hardly prehistoric.


These ancient Europeans were styling and profiling while the Mongol nomads were still drinking horse blood and wearing pony skins.
You are comparing the term "Mongoloid" to Mongols.
"Mongoloid" is a term that describes the race and origin of the Tocharian tribe. A tribe which originally spawned the "red haired" mummies.

The mummies were identified to not be Caucasians who conquered Mongoloid people. They were identified as being part Caucasian and part Mongoloid people who ruled over people who were part Caucasian and part Mongoloid.


In a word, wrong. The Ute and Paiute have traditions of an ancient war with the Pahi-zoho, the giant red-heads, who had a nasty habit of terrorizing the area indian tribes and eating their children. The Ute and Paiute called in a few other friendly tribes and drove the Pahi-zoho to the earth, eradicated them, or at least chased them the hell out of Paiute territory.
So in other words, it's a tale or myth of an American Indian struggle with red-haired monsters.


Interestingly, in more modern times (early 20th Century), a number of tall, red-headed skeletons were recovered from guano mines in Utah,
Red-haired skeletons? Really?
Care to rephrase that sentence? Or were you just bullshitting me?


Nope. The broad-nosed, thick-lipped Olmec stone heads to which you allude do not depict Africans, but, rather, they depict Indonesians, who undoubtedly colonized South America across the South Pacific in the long ancient past.
That's very unlikely, because Indonesia is not a place of human origin. Africa is.
While you may be right that the Olmec heads have much in common with Indonesian stonework....I can't help but point out that Indonesian stonework has much in common with African stonework.

Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
However, they're still African.

(It's more likely they went strait from Africa to South America while simultaneously going to Indonesia as well).

Still, the point is there's more proof that Africans reached South America than Caucasians did.


As I mentioned elsewhere, I've been studying all this shit since the 1970s.
You aren't going to slip in anything on me.
We will see.

[JenaS62]

Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
However, they're still African.

(It's more likely they went strait from Africa to South America while simultaneously going to Indonesia as well).

.


I hate to butt in but it's never stopped me before. The Olmecs are African. It does not matter where they traveled to or in addition to, but they were fom Africa just as Bob said. I, personally, believe that they were sent/transported to South America to help with gold mining as they were highly experienced in gold mining in Africa.

[EzraBrooks]

TC--- what a great opportunity for you. Have fun and report back!

Oh... and----


BWP-AsG5DRk

[Anarch]

IT is egypt.... their is no scotch. Bring your own or hit a shop with a still as soon as you can and thats it...

No booze in muslim countries unless you mix your own or bring your own.

REMEMBER THAT.


also

ENVY ENVY ENVY,,

I wish I was going....Bring back some good sand and dirt...in baggies.... for further examination...



Date the sand under the paws.

Pull a stone from the pyramid...

Bring back what you can.

and don't speak of the pharos pump to them... not unless you want to be kicked out... pharo pump talk is ground to get you tresspassed so keep that to yourself.

[Doc Velocity]

Pull a stone from the pyramid... Bring back what you can.

LOL... If you try to "pull a stone" or a fragment or a pebble from the Pyramids and get caught doing it, Zahi Hawas himself will throw you into an Egyptian dungeon to rot with the others. Hawas has zero tolerance for looting, or even TALK of looting in Egypt. And he has the power to permanently ban anyone who crosses him.

— Doc Velocity

[DaKat]

This coming Saturday I'll be leaving for Egypt with a study group from Stockholm's University for a week examining early climate impact and its effects on culture from the last 10,000 years.

The focus of the study is a native group of people that make the transition from stone age to an advanced people, and it begins with the buried remains near the town of Badari, the finds indicate an age over 40 centuries before Christ.

Examining the remains of the quite well preserved bodies, they found husks of barley, and since this does not grow wild in Egypt, this means they cultivated it and had a climate that allowed this without the use of substantial irrigation.

Among the remains where also tools of advanced workmanship, they built boats, wove fine linen and carpets, even created perfumes! and had domesticated animals.

They had pictograph writing that displayed their life style in detail, well beyond anything produced even in the neolithic. Pigments were diverse and the use of geometric symbols were incorporated with the artwork.

No one knows where these early Egyptians came from, its believed this group was of Nubian/Ethiopian/ and Libyan bloodlines mixed with Semitic or Armenoid, and they inhabited most of north Africa.

There will be two seminars on a once lush and fertile landscape that allowed this group to flourish, and the impact of desert conditions that forced later generations to hold to the banks of the Nile for survival. The big part of this ( for me anyway) is the display of drill core samples from below the sand levels of todays northern Sahara, revealing an eden of unimaginable fertility.

Looking at the desert of todays Egypt its hard to vision a lush landscape, even more interesting is what brought on the sudden change.

As far as I know, the hotel has some sort of Internet cafe, so I hope to get on line now and again, and I have no idea where the hell I'll buy my scotch...


Sounds like one hell of a trip! Wish I were going.

Egypt has a great AND varied history, and it has nothing to do with aliens or spaceships. They were obviously just different enough from others around them that they took control, and advanced civilization by an enormous amount.

I have no doubt that MUCH more will be found there, and we will, in time, understand more about them.

[Doc Velocity]

Even if that were true, that's not particularly impressive or groundbreaking. Also, Egypt was more advanced.
The "advanced" civilizations of Upper and Lower Egypt were HARDLY advanced at the time of the rise of Chinese civilization, about 4000 years ago. China had already developed the blast furnace for forging advanced metal alloys and tools and weapons, while the Early Dynastic cultures of Upper and Lower Egypt were still working with primitive stone tools.

However, the very ancient Caucasoid civilization that spanned Europe AND Asia dates back to beyond 5000 years ago, BEFORE the rise of either "advanced" Chinese OR Egyptian civilizations.

The Caucasoid mummies of China, which have been dated by various researchers at between 3000 and 5000 years old, had distinct genetic markers linking them to bloodlines of ancient Europe. NOT to the Mongoloid bloodlines of China, but to Europe.

Beyond that, at least one of these ancient Caucasians, the so-called "Ice Man" of the Italian Alps, is definitively dated at 5000 years old, and was, in fact, in possession of a fine, forged copper axe some 1000 years earlier than the "official" Copper Age... Which caused paleo-archaeologists to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age.

So, the technically-sophisticated Caucasian civilization — that was stomping around Europe AND Asia even before the rise of Chinese civilization — was already in possession of advanced metallurgical techniques while Egyptians were still hammering stone-on-stone.


And I'd like to point out that those mummies near Tibet were hardly prehistoric.
When they were first discovered, carbon dating on their clothing and flesh returned some astonishing results — that they were between 7000 and 11,000 years old. Dogmatic archaeologists simply couldn't accept that finding, and a number of subsequent tests have revised those ages downward to between 3000 and 5000 years old. Seemingly, Science was intent on FORCING the mummies to fit into a more acceptable timeline.

In the case of the "Ice Man," however, they were compelled to rewrite the books, re-dating the Copper Age by over 1000 years.


"Mongoloid" is a term that describes the race and origin of the Tocharian tribe. A tribe which originally spawned the "red haired" mummies.
Again, the "red-haired" mummies are NOT Mongoloid, they are Caucasians with distinct Caucasian features and genetic markers linked to European bloodlines. Do your Science, Bob. Advanced Caucasians were not even supposed to EXIST at this time, in Europe OR Asia, yet the evidence is mounting that an entire civilization of sophisticated Caucasians existed — possibly colonizing many parts of the world — while Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were still in the cradle.

I know, it's not politically correct these days to suggest that Caucasians were the FIRST to do ANYTHING, but Science is Science.


So in other words, it's a tale or myth of an American Indian struggle with red-haired monsters.
Hey, YOU were the one who claimed that there were NO TRADITIONS or legends of "red heads" among North American aborigines. I presented evidence of just such traditions and legends, and now you're calling it a myth without even researching it.


Red-haired skeletons? Really?
Care to rephrase that sentence? Or were you just bullshitting me?
Bob, if you knew what you were talking about — which it seems you don't — you'd know that there are MANY cases of mummified human remains that still have hair, and even skeletons that still have hair remnants. Even your precious "Mongoloid" mummies still had big, beautiful hanks of red hair in braids. I'd like to know why you're so insistent on calling bullshit instead of doing your research.


That's very unlikely, because Indonesia is not a place of human origin. Africa is.
Well, Bob, you just don't know that. What paleo-archaeologists are rapidly coming to realize today is that evidence of sophisticated ancient human presence is popping up all over the world, pushing BACK the accepted timeline of Homo sapiens by hundreds of thousands of years — by as much as 750,000 years, as a matter of fact — which obliquely suggests not only a non-African cradle of human origin, but MULTIPLE origins for Homo sapiens, which is a REAL mystery.


While you may be right that the Olmec heads have much in common with Indonesian stonework....I can't help but point out that Indonesian stonework has much in common with African stonework... Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
However, they're still African. ...the point is there's more proof that Africans reached South America than Caucasians did.
Dead wrong, and without a leg to stand on, Bob. See, while the Olmec heads have been pretty definitively dated at around 3400 years old, THERE IS NO comparable stonework of that style or age found anywhere in Africa. See, you CAN'T SHOW ME an "Olmec head" that was ever found in Africa. They don't exist. They exist in Central America, but not in Africa. There's no link to Africa.

Mesoamerican archaeologist and historian Karl Taube, one of the most distinguished experts on Pre-Columbian civilization in the Americas, has pretty well put the African origin of the Olmecs to rest...

Professor Taube says: "There simply is no material evidence of any Pre-Hispanic contact between the Old World and Mesoamerica before the arrival of the Spanish in the sixteenth century.", p. 17. Davis, N. "Voyagers to the New World" University of New Mexico Press, 1979 ISBN 0-8263-0880-5 Williams, S. "Fantastic Archaeology" University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991 ISBN 0-8122-1312-2 Feder, K.L. "Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries. Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology" 3rd ed., Trade Mayfield ISBN 0-7674-0459-9

So, there is NO EVIDENCE to link the Olmec heads to Africa. The theory is rejected by virtually ALL archaeologists and historians. You're pitching your wishful thinking here, Bob, instead of Science.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

The "advanced" civilizations of Upper and Lower Egypt were HARDLY advanced at the time of the rise of Chinese civilization, about 4000 years ago.
Yes, the Egyptians were so un-advanced, in fact, that they created the pyramids--structures that modern engineers would have extreme difficulty building without the use of modern machines.


However, the very ancient Caucasoid civilization that spanned Europe AND Asia dates back to beyond 5000 years ago, BEFORE the rise of either "advanced" Chinese OR Egyptian civilizations.
First of all, if this "caucasoid civilization" were so great, advanced, and huge, there would be infrastructure left over.
Where is the infrastructure?

In the Indus valley there are extremely old traces of advanced civilization. Civilization that predates anything possibly "Caucasoid." The only prehistoric Caucasian thing is stone henge (which I admit, was an amazing feat. But there were no buildings, no nothing left behind. Just a religious landmark/calendar: stone henge).

However, to date the Egyptians built the pyramids, and the Chinese built lasting infrastructure, and the Harappan people had cities with sewage and water drainage systems.
"Caucasoid civilization" doesn't even come close to rivaling these achievements. If such a civilization even existed.

The only thing "Caucasian" that happened in Asia is that Caucasian nomads emigrated through Europe. They weren't advanced, they built no infrastructure, they produced nothing of note. However, their descendants survive today in the Tarim Basin.


The Caucasoid mummies of China, which have been dated by various researchers at between 3000 and 5000 years old, had distinct genetic markers linking them to bloodlines of ancient Europe.
No one doubts that. The Tocharian after all speak an Indo-European language.
And no, all proof points the the Tocharians living in the Tarim Basin from 1800 BC onward.
There are no figures above that. The mummies in the Tarim Basin are about 4000 years old.
Whereas, Egyptian mummies are upwards of 8000 years old. (6000 BC).


NOT to the Mongoloid bloodlines of China, but to Europe.
Well, they're both.
The tribal Indo-Europeans met tribes from the Tibetan plateau when they emigrated east.


Beyond that, at least one of these ancient Caucasians, the so-called "Ice Man" of the Italian Alps, is definitively dated at 5000 years old, and was, in fact, in possession of a fine Bronze axe some 500 years BEFORE the "official" beginning of the Bronze Age... Which caused paleo-archaeologists to REWRITE the books on the Bronze Age.
I liked Laz's response to this, when you brought this up in a different thread.

Laz pointed out that you were confusing "5000 years ago" with 5000 BC. The Ice Man is just a Caucasian with a copper axe from 3000 BC. And he did not even remotely rewrite the books.
If the Ice Man was, say, 3000 years older, then that would have been an interesting find.

Ice Man rewrote nothing. And he is hardly prehistoric. He's younger than the pyramids by a few millennium.


So, the technically-sophisticated Caucasian civilization — that was stomping around Europe AND Asia even before the rise of Chinese civilization — was already in possession of advanced metallurgical techniques while Egyptians were still hammering stone-on-stone.[/Quote]
Again, Egyptians built pyramids 8000 years ago. A great feat. And a Caucasian in the alps had a copper axe 5000 years ago. Wow, I'm so impressed...
And nowhere in any Egyptian paintings or murals are there depictions of "white people."
In the pyramids, I think there are some depictions of Nubians, but that's about it.
The 5000 year old man with an axe doesn't even come close to rewriting anything when compared with a culture that produced monuments so great (pyramids) that they could barely be reproduced today.


In the case of the "Ice Man," however, they were compelled to rewrite the books.
Why would a dead guy in the mountains with a copper axe from only 5000 years ago re-write the books on anything?


Again, the "red-haired" mummies are NOT Mongoloid, they are Caucasians with distinct Caucasian features and genetic markers linked to European bloodlines. Do your Science, Bob. Advanced Caucasians were not even supposed to EXIST at this time, in Europe OR Asia, yet the evidence is mounting that an entire civilization of sophisticated Caucasians existed — possibly colonizing many parts of the world
Is this an elaborate joke? "Mounting evidence?" Really? There's not a shred of evidence except some mummified red-haired Tocharians and a guy with a copper axe from 3000 BC.


— while Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were still in the cradle.
Really? Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were in their cradle in 3000 BC? Really?
Are you actually being serious?


I know, it's not politically correct these days to suggest that Caucasians were the FIRST to do ANYTHING, but Science is Science.
More like pseudo science.
And no. There is no ancient infrastructure in Europe for any civilization. Central and Western Europeans didn't know what civilization was until the Romans brought it to them. (To which I might add...the place where Rome is now was originally a Phoenician trading station).


Hey, YOU were the one who claimed that there were NO TRADITIONS or legends of "red heads" among North American aborigines. I presented evidence of just such traditions and legends, and now you're calling it a myth without even researching it.
Wait, so you actually believe that a story about giant red-heads eating American Indian babies, etc. is accurate?
For now, I'm going to stick with myth. To which I might add, just because it's a myth doesn't mean it isn't based on something that actually happened. Even if red-heads lived in North America with Hopis, the story is still a myth.


Bob, if you knew what you were talking about — which it seems you don't — you'd know that there are MANY cases of mummified human remains that still have hair, and even skeletons that still have hair remnants. Even your precious "Mongoloid" mummies still had big, beautiful hanks of red hair in braids. I'd like to know why you're so insistent on calling bullshit instead of doing your research.
You said "skeletons" not mummies.
If you had chosen to phrase it better, I might not have gotten a laugh at your expense. :D

Ok, so were they red-haired mummies found in North America, or were they "red-haired skeletons"?
And if they are red-haired mummies, prove it.



Well, Bob, you just don't know that. What paleo-archaeologists are rapidly coming to realize today is that evidence of sophisticated ancient human presence is popping up all over the world, pushing BACK the accepted timeline of Homo sapiens by hundreds of thousands of years — by as much as 750,000 years, as a matter of fact — which obliquely suggests not only a non-African cradle of human origin, but MULTIPLE origins for Homo sapiens, which is a REAL mystery.
That's true, they're constantly pushing the dates of civilization back. But not for Caucasian civilization, they are doing this as they find new, and older, evidence of Chinese, Egyptian, Indus, Mesopotamian (and mound builder) civilizations.

There is no civilization that formed along the Danube, or Rhine or wherever.

There is proof that an ancient civilization was near Kiev, but that's not exactly a Caucasian civilization. Because it was confined to that area above the Black sea.
And the "Kiev" civilization has not pressed the envelope on any dates.


Dead wrong, and without a leg to stand on, Bob. See, while the Olmec heads have been pretty definitively dated at around 3400 years old, THERE IS NO comparable stonework of that style or age found anywhere in Africa. See, you CAN'T SHOW ME an "Olmec head" that was ever found in Africa. They don't exist. They exist in Central America, but not in Africa. There's no link to Africa.
Nobody said the heads were built by Africans. The head obviously depicts an African ruler. It's fairly clear that meso americans made it. Toltec or Mayan.


So, there is NO EVIDENCE to link the Olmec heads to Africa. The theory is rejected by virtually ALL archaeologists and historians. You're pitching your wishful thinking here, Bob, instead of Science.
First of all, there is no evidence of a Caucasian civilization, and the theory is rejected by virtually all archeologists and historians.
So that goes both ways.

And to be honest, the archeologists can't know for sure concerning the Olmec heads. All they know is the Olmec head seems to depict an African. Though it may not.
The details of the group known as the "Olmec" are completely vague and (for lack of anything less cliche) "shrouded in mystery."

But frankly, it doesn't bother me if it turns out to be non-African. Because I was merely using this as proof that there is more proof for Africans visiting Central America than Caucasians.
Just sayin.


Professor Taube says: "There simply is no material evidence of any Pre-Hispanic contact between the Old World and Mesoamerica before the arrival of the Spanish in the sixteenth century."
Good job Einstein, you just quoted a professor who completely disagrees with your position.

According to that particular professor, nobody went there. Not Caucasians, not Olmecs, nobody.

Which, by the way, is false. There is now sizable evidence that the Chinese reached the area in the 14th century, or so. As Chinese maps from before Columbus's journey depict the Western Coast of the United States.

Whether the Chinese made contact with the native tribes is unknown. What is known, is that the Chinese certainly brought back a cactus plant that was indigenous to the American South West.

[Doc Velocity]

In the Indus valley there are extremely old traces of advanced civilization. Civilization that predates anything possibly "Caucasoid."
And, yet, the indigenous people of India are, indeed, Caucasian. Look it up. You seem to have trouble distinguishing Caucasian from "fair skinned, blue-eyed"... The term "Caucasian" refers to certain skeletal facial features, NOT to skin pigmentation. The Indians are Caucasian.


The mummies in the Tarim Basin are about 4000 years old. Whereas, Egyptian mummies are upwards of 8000 years old. (6000 BC).
Really? Your dates are wrong by as much as 3000 or even 4000 years. Let's ask Zahi Hawas, the Egyptian Minister of Antiquities and Director General of Giza...


"People have been excavating in Egypt for the last 200 years. No single artifact, no single inscription, or pottery, or anything has been found until now, in any place to predate the Egyptian civilization more than 5,000 years ago."

So, according to Hawas, who I DEFY you to challenge, your information is wrong by as much as 3000 years. There was NO Egyptian civilization before 5000 years ago, according to Hawas, meaning 3000 BC... Now, who are YOU quoting?

Archaeologists place the age of the Great Pyramid of Kufu at around 3800 years (built around 1800 BC).


Laz pointed out that you were confusing "5000 years ago" with 5000 BC. The Ice Man is just a Caucasian with a copper axe from 3000 BC. And he did not even remotely rewrite the books.
If the Ice Man was, say, 3000 years older, then that would have been an interesting find.
I haven't misinterpreted what 5000-years-old means. I do not confuse BC dates, as you obviously do. The Ice Man was walking around with a fine copper axe BEFORE Egyptian civilization crawled out of the cradle, in 3000 BC, with NO metal-working technology.

To say that the Ice Man "did not even remotely rewrite the books" is to expose your fundamental ignorance of archaeology. The Ice Man was actually dated at between 5300 and 5350 years of age and was carrying a fine copper axe head (a FORGED copper axe head) about 1000 years before archaeologists believed humans started forging copper, nevermind Bronze.

They had to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age because of the Ice Man. And you think that's unremarkable?

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

And, yet, the indigenous people of India are, indeed, Caucasian. Look it up. You seem to have trouble distinguishing Caucasian from "fair skinned, blue-eyed"... The term "Caucasian" refers to certain skeletal facial features, NOT to skin pigmentation. The Indians are Caucasian.
Obviously Doc.
I'm the one that pointed this out to you in the last thread. Don't think I don't know, or do you not remember?

No, I'm using your definition. Your definition says "European."
People from the Indus valley, Mesopotamia, Iran; Anatolia are all Caucasians. However, they are not Europeans.
And they never made up a vast "Caucasian civilization."



So, according to Hawas, who I DEFY you to challenge, your information is wrong by as much as 3000 years. There there was NO Egyptian civilization before 5000 years ago, according to Hawas, meaning 3000 BC... Now, who are YOU quoting?
You're twisting Hawas's words. There was civilization in 6000 BC.

Evidence?
The site known as "Merimda," in Lower Egypt.
And then of course there was the Mosyllonian civilization near Somalia. About 8000 years ago.

Archaeologists place the age of the Great Pyramid of Kufu at around 3800 years (built around 1800 BC).


I haven't misinterpreted what 5000-years-old means. I do not confuse BC dates, as you obviously do. The Ice Man was walking around with a fine copper axe at a time when Egyptians were just crawling out of the cradle, in 3000 BC, with NO metal-working technology.
Egyptian civilization is understood to have started in 6000 BC (8000 years ago). That is when sites like Merimda were created.


To say that the Ice Man "did not even remotely rewrite the books" is to expose your fundamental ignorance of archaeology.
Laz pointed this out, and Laz is an actual historian.


The Ice Man was actually dated at between 5300 and 5350 years of age and was carrying a fine copper axe head (a FORGED copper axe head) about 1000 years before archaeologists believed humans started forging copper, nevermind Bronze.
His copper axe fell within the right age.

They had to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age because of the Ice Man. And you think that's unremarkable?[/Quote]
First of all.
I can't help but notice that you could produce no infrastructure for your famed civilization.
You would think that if the Ice man came from a civilization where axes were commonly forged (and not just a tribe that could forge an axe) there would be massive infrastructure. Such as actual forges and cities all over.

But no, ice man is a tribal blip. He's on the same page as the Egyptians. Actually--farther behind because the Egyptians actually had a flourishing society by the Nile a few millennium before.

[Doc Velocity]

You would think that if the Ice man came from a civilization where axes were commonly forged (and not just a tribe that could forge an axe) there would be massive infrastructure. Such as actual forges and cities all over.
Throughout several of my posts over several weeks, I have established, time and again, that there is evidence of a super-ancient civilization upon the face of this planet.

In North America, there is evidence of thousands of prehistoric copper mines around the Great Lakes, with NO evidence of who excavated them, and no evidence of where a hundred million pounds of native copper went.

In North America, in Colorado, there is evidence of ancient coal mines at unheard-of depths (over 800 feet deep) with heavily oxidized coal deposits (having been exposed to air for centuries, at least, if not thousands of years). Again, no indigenous people can take credit for these engineering marvels. It must have been a long-forgotten, technically sophisticated civilization.

In North America, around the Great Lakes and in other regions, runic tablets and inscriptions have been discovered. No, there is no evidence that they are modern hoaxes, but these are probably remnants of ancient Scandinavian visitation.

In North America, again, truly massive ground structures exist around the area of Chillicothe, Ohio — Serpents Mound is one, but there are others — which rival the pyramids of Egypt for their scale and complexity. Again, no indigenous people of North America can take credit for these structures.

Now, that's just in North America. These enigmatic archaeological sites are largely ignored by mainstream Science. They are seldom definitively explained, and are usually left to commercial tourism as the curiosities they are.

Taken together with North and South American aboriginal legends of "white brothers" and "red-headed" people who vowed to someday return, I think the collective evidence points to a very ancient and sophisticated civilization that, at one time in the distant past, did indeed occupy North and South America, as well as Africa, Europe and Asia, where many enigmatic structures still exist.

Stonehenge, for instance, is OLDER than the Egyptian civilization (but about the same age as the Ice Man) and couldn't possibly have been built by the later, technically lacking "Druids"... The various henges and monolithic structures of the UK and Europe are true mysteries. Nobody knows WHO the fuck built them.

Now, this, to me, is evidence of an infrastructure of a very, very ancient civilization that may have colonized the entire fucking globe.



But no, ice man is a tribal blip. He's on the same page as the Egyptians. Actually--farther behind because the Egyptians actually had a flourishing society by the Nile a few millennium before.

Once again, I provided a QUOTE from Zahi Hawas stating, unequivocally, that there was no evidence to suggest Egyptian civilization was older than 5000 years. Hawas said it, I didn't "twist his words"... Meanwhile, you haven't produced one source for Egyptian civilization being 8000 years old. Because it's not.


— Doc Velocity

[Doc Velocity]

Fuck, this isn't rocket science, Bob... Type the words "How Old is Ancient Egyptian Civilization?" into your search engine.

LOL

The modern Encyclopedia Britannica says, in it's "Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Civilization": About 5000 years ago, the civilization of ancient Egypt began in the Nile River valley.

Now, those are the first words the Encyclopedia Britannica utters on the subject. Egyptian Minister of Antiquities Zahi Hawas says that there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest ancient Egyptian civilization is older than 5000 years.

So, where are you getting this "8000 year old" bullshit, Bob?

— Doc Velocity

[Doc Velocity]

I'm the one that pointed this [that Caucasian is a skeletal description, not a description of pigment] out to you in the last thread. Don't think I don't know, or do you not remember?
I've been pointing out the actual definition of Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid to people for about 30 years, every time some racially-charged discussion pops up. You didn't enlighten me in this area.


No, I'm using your definition. Your definition says "European." People from the Indus valley, Mesopotamia, Iran; Anatolia are all Caucasians. However, they are not Europeans.
And they never made up a vast "Caucasian civilization."
I'm not confusing Caucasians with Europeans. Certainly, all indigenous Europeans may be Caucasian, but all Caucasians are not European. The Caucasian race made several pushes outward into Europe and across Asia in the dim recesses of history.

My point was and is that the Caucasian mummies of China have been definitively linked to Caucasian bloodlines in Europe, not merely as Caucasians, but as European Caucasians.

The Ice Man was probably of their same civilization — he was Caucasian, he fits right in with the age of the Chinese mummies, AND he had acupuncture tattoos along his spine.

Acupuncture tattoos. Those are tattoos showing where to stick an acupuncture needle in order to alleviate some troubling symptom, right.

In the case of the Ice Man, his acupuncture tattoos indicated that he had gall bladder trouble. A necropsy (autopsy) on the Ice Man revealed that he did, indeed, have severe gall bladder problems, which reinforced the idea that his tattoos were, indeed, acupuncture tattoos.

The cause of his gall bladder problems was arsenic poisoning. You know where you get arsenic poisoning, right? From breathing the fumes of a metal furnace, such as a copper-smelting forge.

Point is, the Ice Man not only was carrying a fine copper axe a thousand years before he SHOULD have been carrying one, but he was also undergoing acupuncture therapy a thousand years before it was supposedly invented in China.

Now, all this evidence is starting to look mighty suspicious. We have a Caucasian European in the Alps with a copper axe he shouldn't have, with tattoos he shouldn't have for a therapy that wouldn't exist for another thousand years.

And you don't consider this archaeologically significant?

At about the same time the Ice Man was trudging around the Alps, here are these European Caucasians out in China — clearly out-of-place — with fine textiles and jewelry and cosmetics and copper tools and all this shit, when the Mongoloids in China/Tibet are just coming out of a savage nomad stone age.

Thereafter, Chinese civilization takes off, they start using furnaces and smelting and forging and all that shit, while Egyptian "civilization" is still using wooden and stone tools, okay.

Now, it's starting to appear that this European/Caucasian culture (civilization) was pretty fucking advanced for over 5000 years ago, but nobody knows WHY or how they got to that place in advance of everyone else.

As I've pointed out, SOMEBODY was mining copper and coal in the Americas in prehistory. WHO WAS IT?

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

i wish i had the connections to do archaeological trips all over the world.

my personal theories about egypt (and africa) are these
- until about approx 6000BC the sahara desert was the sahara RAINFOREST and it covered most of the top half of africa.
- it was catatostropically detroyed by non-human agencies and the peoples of north africa migrated eastwards, making up the nubians and the occupants of petra (other locations i couldn't guess at).
- in ancient egypt i remember the oldest pillars were decorated by leaves, vines and flowers (at times like this i wish i'd kept those old school books), but as you got closer to recent, the leaves and vines became more and more stylized as sculptors didn't have the living plants anymore and forgot what they looked like, until eventually pillars remained plain.
- also a rainforest, for it's continued survival, depends on sheer size. a rainforest attracts clouds and rain (hence RAINforest), and it's own closed cycle of growth and decay - ie, the plants depend solely on the rot of dead plant material for it's nutrients and minerals. when a rainforest is thinned too much or acreage reduced past a critical point, it simply dies - unable to draw the clouds for rain, and unable to draw sufficient nutrients from the lost dead plant matter. the entire cycle is disrupted and collapses. something happened to destroy the sahara rainforest, leaving desert.

[tahn1000]

doc velocity, the anoich civilization/empire was around as early as 100000BC, and the babylonians (pre jewism) were trading with the chinese 5000BC. i saw a chinese archeological documentary about a "city of the dead", which was a palace complex, and in bass-relief on the wall was larger than life figures of men. i immediately recognized one of them as being a babylonian, and with the very fine plaiting of his almost floor length beard, suspect he was probably an emissary of high ranking, possibly a personal representative of the babylonian king at the time.

[Doc Velocity]

doc velocity, the anoich civilization/empire was around as early as 100000BC, and the babylonians (pre jewism) were trading with the chinese 5000BC. i saw a chinese archeological documentary about a "city of the dead", which was a palace complex, and in bass-relief on the wall was larger than life figures of men. i immediately recognized one of them as being a babylonian, and with the very fine plaiting of his almost floor length beard, suspect he was probably an emissary of high ranking, possibly a personal representative of the babylonian king at the time.

Well, um, I'd like to see your sources on that. Babylon, as far as I can tell, didn't exist before the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE. That's on the books, that's the current knowledge on the subject. So, if Babylon was trading with China in 5000 BC, then they were doing it in a parallel universe or in another dimension, okay, because that's :yikes:CRAZY:yikes:

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

i don't remember the name of the chinese emporer at the time. i wrote it down and the name of the doco, but i don't know where i put it.

but have you heard of solomon's treasure? how some scholars reckon that the egyptians ransacked the temple and etched on this wall the trophies they took with them? some biblical scholars believe on of those pictures is the arc of the convenant.

the thing is, it's got a chinese character inscribed on it!

[TC]

doc velocity, the anoich civilization/empire was around as early as 100000BC, and the babylonians (pre jewism) were trading with the chinese 5000BC. i saw a chinese archeological documentary about a "city of the dead", which was a palace complex, and in bass-relief on the wall was larger than life figures of men. i immediately recognized one of them as being a babylonian, and with the very fine plaiting of his almost floor length beard, suspect he was probably an emissary of high ranking, possibly a personal representative of the babylonian king at the time.


Well Jericho was inhabited off and on for the last 8 to 10,000 years, as it lay on the trade route and cross roads to the east. And Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city, and the Sumer, (taken to include the prehistoric Ubaid) have no mention of something in the range of 100000 BC ...

Our earliest mark as modern man is the cave art of southern France ( ca.30,000) and Australia (ca 28,000) This is pretty much documented.

[Doc Velocity]

Well Jericho was inhabited off and on for the last 8 to 10,000 years, as it lay on the trade route and cross roads to the east. And Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city, and the Sumer, (taken to include the prehistoric Ubaid) have no mention of something in the range of 100000 BC ...
I'm guessing that's a typo.


Our earliest mark as modern man is the cave art of southern France ( ca.30,000) and Australia (ca 28,000) This is pretty much documented.
Agreed, and it's beautiful artwork, too, even to modern eyes. I'm of the opinion that Homo sapiens came out of Africa, alright, but also out of China and North and South America.

Multiple times.

I think there is lots of evidence of an ancient proto-civilization that is just out there, waiting for us to develop the technology to dig it up. See, I think we are just a second or maybe third iteration of civilized humanity upon this planet.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

Throughout several of my posts over several weeks, I have established, time and again, that there is evidence of a super-ancient civilization upon the face of this planet.
Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that there was a prehistoric civilization.

However, you are suggesting that this civilization was Caucasian, specifically European Caucasian (in terms of "red-haired" people--which could only by Europeans or prehistoric Iranians).


In North America, there is evidence of thousands of prehistoric copper mines around the Great Lakes, with NO evidence of who excavated them, and no evidence of where a hundred million pounds of native copper went.
I have no doubt.
But in addition to American Indians, neither Europeans, Caucasians, Africans or anyone else claim responsibility for it.
If Europeans created that empire in North America, there would be some kind of surviving European or Caucasian myth.


In North America, in Colorado, there is evidence of ancient coal mines at unheard-of depths (over 800 feet deep) with heavily oxidized coal deposits (having been exposed to air for centuries, at least, if not thousands of years). Again, no indigenous people can take credit for these engineering marvels. It must have been a long-forgotten, technically sophisticated civilization.
I agree, there are many mysteries concerning human past.
There is no evidence that the mound builders were Caucasian or European whites with "red hair."
They could just as easily be an extinct Indian tribe that was advanced. Or (this is a very off theory, I'm just throwing it out there) it wasn't even human.

American Indian mythology would suggest as much anyway. You said that their mythology refers to red-haired giants that ate people. The Indians didn't think they were human, and if these red heads even existed (Which is a huge "if") they might not have been human.

For the record though, "red haired" people were reported by the Inca as well. But they said they had positive experiences with them, and they helped them develop their society.


In North America, around the Great Lakes and in other regions, runic tablets and inscriptions have been discovered. No, there is no evidence that they are modern hoaxes, but these are probably remnants of ancient Scandinavian visitation.
Possible.
Laz would have a better answer for that. I don't know much about Scandinavians and their visitation records.


In North America, again, truly massive ground structures exist around the area of Chillicothe, Ohio — Serpents Mound is one, but there are others — which rival the pyramids of Egypt for their scale and complexity. Again, no indigenous people of North America can take credit for these structures.
No one doubts these structures exist.

However, you are attributing them to a "Caucasian civilization."

Which is exponentially unlikely. Considering how un-advanced Europeans have always historically been. If they once ruled North America, why was their presence in Europe be so un-advanced? Ice Man may be the only exception, and the evidence is in favor that he probably got his axe from trade with North Africa or Anatolia (Anatolia: where most copper came from).

You can't even prove he lived in a house. He was just a wandering tribesman. Maybe he adventured to China.


Now, that's just in North America. These enigmatic archaeological sites are largely ignored by mainstream Science.
Not completely ignored. Most attribute them to mound builders, etc. There is simply not enough known about them to really say much.
But you also cannot connect the structures in North America to others without evidence.


Taken together with North and South American aboriginal legends of "white brothers" and "red-headed" people who vowed to someday return, I think the collective evidence points to a very ancient and sophisticated civilization that, at one time in the distant past, did indeed occupy North and South America, as well as Africa, Europe and Asia, where many enigmatic structures still exist.
About the Inca...
They have a very sophisticated wall-building technique. They used nothing in-between the stones, but rather cut them so perfectly that they fit together without being able to be pried apart.
They claimed that red-headed people taught them this.
However, back in Europe, there are absolutely no traces of this wall-building style. And nothing like it exists in Europe, Siberia, Iran, or wherever else "red heads" live/lived.

So it's pretty clear these red-heads don't have any archeological connection to Europe at all.


Stonehenge, for instance, is OLDER than the Egyptian civilization (but about the same age as the Ice Man)
Again, it's not older than Egypt. Just the Egyptian dynasties.


Now, this, to me, is evidence of an infrastructure of a very, very ancient civilization that may have colonized the entire fucking globe.
Well, we do know that all human genes trace back to Africans. Not Europeans.


Once again, I provided a QUOTE from Zahi Hawas stating, unequivocally, that there was no evidence to suggest Egyptian civilization was older than 5000 years.
He's clearly talking about the Egyptian dynasties. Not the original Egyptian civilization that settled and irrigated the Nile, etc.

"Merimda" is proof of Egyptian civilization from around 6000 BC.
Hawas certainly knows about Merimda. Which is why it's clear he's referring to the dynasties.
Egyptian civilization did not begin with the dynasties though.
Hawas is talking about ancient Egypt. I'm talking about prehistoric Egypt.
Hawas is saying the date for ancient Egypt can't be pushed back. But Hawas has never denied predynastic Egyptian civilization.


Hawas said it, I didn't "twist his words"... Meanwhile, you haven't produced one source for Egyptian civilization being 8000 years old.
http://brepols.metapress.com/content/p774up4674381869/


Well, um, I'd like to see your sources on that. Babylon, as far as I can tell, didn't exist before the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE.
I'm pretty sure Tahn meant Sumeria. But allot of Sumerian culture was adopted by the Babylonians. Like their mythology, and architecture.

Also, that brings up some of my point. If there actually was a huge "Caucasian civilization" there would be structures like the Sumerian Ziggurats, or the remains of the Babel...or something.
But there is no significant infrastructure other than monoliths, and mounds, etc. No settlements (except for one in North America).



Point is, the Ice Man not only was carrying a fine copper axe a thousand years before he SHOULD have been carrying one, but he was also undergoing acupuncture therapy a thousand years before it was supposedly invented in China.
If that's true, then it means that either he went to China, came in contact with Chinese, and that China invented acupuncture earlier than previously supposed.

Why do I say this? Because acupuncture is still inherently Chinese, and very much apart of Chinese philosophy.
Also, if Europeans invented acupuncture, and they "taught" Chinese, it would serve to reason that they would have "taught" Sumerians (who, as a culture, predates Ice Man, or any European civilization. (Uruk period began 7000 years ago).
But why did Sumerians not have acupuncture?

Also, I would like to point out that there is disagreement among many archeologists concerning the rise of Chinese civilization. The Longshan culture reached its height 4000 years ago. But Longshan culture was around before that point, and Chinese culture existed there earlier.
Also, if Europeans had taught Longshan Chinese how to do acupuncture, Chinese would have noted this visit--and there would be evidence of Chinese-European interaction.

[TC]

I'm guessing that's a typo.


Agreed, and it's beautiful artwork, too, even to modern eyes. I'm of the opinion that Homo sapiens came out of Africa, alright, but also out of China and North and South America.

Multiple times.

I think there is lots of evidence of an ancient proto-civilization that is just out there, waiting for us to develop the technology to dig it up. See, I think we are just a second or maybe third iteration of civilized humanity upon this planet.

— Doc Velocity

My bad ..lol 8,000..

Cheers

[Ningishiddza]

No one knows where these early Egyptians came from, its believed this group was of Nubian/Ethiopian/ and Libyan bloodlines mixed with Semitic or Armenoid, and they inhabited most of north Africa.

If you look at the names of the first pharaohs, those are not Egyptian names. Whatever language it was is long gone, but it has no affinity with any African languages, or for that matter any known languages.


There will be two seminars on a once lush and fertile landscape that allowed this group to flourish, and the impact of desert conditions that forced later generations to hold to the banks of the Nile for survival. The big part of this ( for me anyway) is the display of drill core samples from below the sand levels of todays northern Sahara, revealing an eden of unimaginable fertility.

No kidding. I've known that for decades.


Looking at the desert of todays Egypt its hard to vision a lush landscape, even more interesting is what brought on the sudden change.

No, it isn't hard at all. You just have to be able to "see" Earth of the Past.

It is undisputed that sea levels 12,000 years ago were 600 ft to 800 ft (180 m to 240 m) lower than they are today. What is the implication of that? That means cities that are now coastal or port cities, like Miami (Florida) were not coastal or port cities 12,000 years ago. Miami would have been 120 miles (190 km) inland.

It also means the Persian Gulf did not exist. It was a lush river valley. The Karun, Tigris, Euphrates and Kuwait Rivers all merged together in what is now Basra to form a vast delta marshland area and then a single river emerged and flowed over a spectacular cataract into what is now the Persian Gulf. That river flowed through a spectacular gorge, that we now call the Strait of Hormuz, and then it flowed another 90 miles (150 km) south/southwest where it emptied into the Indian Ocean. That was the Eden River.

The river you never heard of, the Kuwait River began as a series of tributaries in the Hijazz Mountains in western Saudi Arabia and flowed across the Arabian Peninsula into present-day Kuwait where it joined with the Euphrates in the Basra Region. The Kuwait River was discovered during a space shuttle mission using ground-penetrating radar (the river bed is clearly visible and today is responsible for a unique phenomenon that causes sand dunes to the north and south of the river bed to be aligned at different angles to each other -- that phenomenon led geographers and paleo-geologists to believe there was something under the sand causing the alignment of the sand dunes).

12,000 years ago the Earth was experiencing its normal climate, which is lengthy Ice Ages, and that Ice Age came to an abrupt end when the western ice sheet on the Antarctic Continent was destroyed by a meteor strike. The sudden melting a slipping of the massive ice sheet into the waters caused multiple tsunamis to cruise back and forth in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans for about 3-5 days before subsiding.

All island settlements and coastal settlements and civilizations were destroyed by the tsunamis, and then subsequently inundated by the rapidly rising sea levels. The average temperature on Earth rose 7° F (11°C) in just a short time, only 54 years (as evidenced by dendrological and other studies over the globe).

The change in temperature of the oceans, combined with changing weather patters laid waste to the Arabian Peninsula and the northern African region and caused regions on the northern Mediterranean (southern Europe -- southern Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey and the Levant) to become drier. The result was no more snow in the Hijazz Mountains, which caused the tributaries to dry up and killed the Kuwait River.

This "event" was the source of the "flood myths" and the tsunamis were responsible for "ghost beaches" at bizarre altitudes and in places were there were never beaches or littorals and other strange phenomenon, like "animal graveyards" etc.

Because of the Ice Age, and in fact during all Ice Ages, life on Earth is confined to a narrow band on Earth mostly south of latitude 30° N and north of latitude 30° S. During the interglacial periods, like the one we are in now, life can exist north and south of those latitudes.

Once Earth re-enters its normal climate, weather patterns will shift and the Sahara and Arabian Peninsula as well as the Levant and southern Iraq and the regions of southern Europe will become lush fertile greenlands again.


The Hopi are pretty emphatic that they are the oldest people in North America, although they do acknowledge the assistance of the subterranean "Ant People" and a character to whom they refer as the True White Brother from the East. He taught them everything they knew about hunting, farming, construction, medicine, etc, and he vowed to return.

Being emphatic does not rise to the level of proof.

The recent court-battle over the prehistoric human remains found in Washington State is instructive. Fortunately for the human race, the local indigenous tribes lost their court battle, which then permitted DNA testing and the prehistoric remains, which date back 10,000 years or so are of Caucasoid stock.


Nope. The broad-nosed, thick-lipped Olmec stone heads to which you allude do not depict Africans, but, rather, they depict Indonesians, who undoubtedly colonized South America across the South Pacific in the long ancient past. The stonework is undeniably indonesian.

Those are west Africans. All Meso-American groups acknowledge that the Plumed Serpent was expelled from his domain and brought some of his followers with him. The domain of the Plumed Serpent was west Africa. When British missionaries entered the Niger and Congo River Basins, the were appalled to find that the all of the various tribal groups had:

1) a cave
2) with an oracle
3) and a serpent
4) protected by a priestess

In nearly all cases, the christian missionaries killed the serpent, raped and/or killed the priestess, destroyed the oracle, and then used dynamite to seal the cave.

Western Africa was the domain of the "serpent-god" Ningishiddza aka Quetzalcoatl who had a black, red and white staff entwined with two serpents (just like the Caduceus) which Bishop de Landa copied and one made for himself.

The images carved in stone, jade and other minerals clearly resemble the modern Fulani, Igbo and other groups from west Africa, and not Indonesians. Apparently you're forgetting that the Gujarat in the Mumbai (Bombay) region engaged in the slave trade and shipped Indians (the Coloreds) to south east Africa, then shipped south eastern Africans to Indonesia, then imported Indonesians to India.


As I mentioned elsewhere, I've been studying all this shit since the 1970s. You aren't going to slip in anything on me.

Then apparently you have wasted your time.


Well, Bob, you just don't know that. What paleo-archaeologists are rapidly coming to realize today is that evidence of sophisticated ancient human presence is popping up all over the world, pushing BACK the accepted timeline of Homo sapiens by hundreds of thousands of years — by as much as 750,000 years, as a matter of fact — which obliquely suggests not only a non-African cradle of human origin, but MULTIPLE origins for Homo sapiens, which is a REAL mystery.

That is a conclusion which is both absurd and illogical.

Homo Neanderthalis, Homo Sapiens, and Homo Sapiens Sapiens had two brains, which made them infinitely more intelligent than their predecessors. The mere fact that the transistor was developed in the late 1940s and in less than 40 years home computers were wide-spread does not require claims that advanced humans existed 2 Million years ago anymore than smelting copper and within 40 years smelting tin and blending it with copper requires an adjustment of the evolutionary time-line.


Dead wrong, and without a leg to stand on, Bob. See, while the Olmec heads have been pretty definitively dated at around 3400 years old, THERE IS NO comparable stonework of that style or age found anywhere in Africa. See, you CAN'T SHOW ME an "Olmec head" that was ever found in Africa. They don't exist. They exist in Central America, but not in Africa. There's no link to Africa.

You mean no where in Africa that you know of.

It's incredibly difficult to carve figurines in jade if there is no jade readily accessible or available in the region you live.

Now you have something new to think about.


Mesoamerican archaeologist and historian Karl Taube, one of the most distinguished experts on Pre-Columbian civilization in the Americas, has pretty well put the African origin of the Olmecs to rest...

Professor Taube says: "There simply is no material evidence of any Pre-Hispanic contact between the Old World and Mesoamerica before the arrival of the Spanish in the sixteenth century.", p. 17. Davis, N. "Voyagers to the New World" University of New Mexico Press, 1979 ISBN 0-8263-0880-5 Williams, S. "Fantastic Archaeology" University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991 ISBN 0-8122-1312-2 Feder, K.L. "Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries. Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology" 3rd ed., Trade Mayfield ISBN 0-7674-0459-9

Nobody cares what he says. He's just another ethnocentrist hell-bent on pushing an agenda.

I am not at all impressed by Academicians, and it is incredibly difficult to take them seriously when they push bogus agendas and theories, like the Land-Bridge Theory, which was thoroughly destroyed in the early 1960s when evidence of civilization in the northern Chilean desert was dated to 30,000 years ago.

In fact, it becomes hysterically funny when the Inuit and others say, "We did what? What land bridge? We travel by boat dumb-ass."


Yes, the Egyptians were so un-advanced, in fact, that they created the pyramids--structures that modern engineers would have extreme difficulty building without the use of modern machines.

Not so fast there.

Yes, there is evidence that Egyptians built pyramids, but there is no evidence they built the pyramids on the Gizeh Plateau. In fact, the evidence is contrary to that.

What is currently preach ad nauseum is that Sneferu built the White Pyramid which collapsed so that caused a change of plans resulting in the Bent Pyramid and then Khufu figured it out and built the Great Pyramid, Khafre built the 2nd and Menkara built the 3rd pyramid.

There's no evidence to support any of that. Since it is undisputed that the Great Pyramid was covered with White Tura Limestone, it implies that Sneferu was attempting to copy it by building a step-pyramid, then encasing the step-pyramid with mud-baked bricks painted white, and that the weight of the bricks caused the collapse of the outer-casing, leaving the step-pyramid standing.

Academicians lie by omission and always mislead by ignoring Radedef, who was Khufu's son. Radedef was the successor to Khufu, not Khafre.

Why didn't Radedef build a pyramid? He did, he just didn't built it on the Gizeh Plateau, rather he went 90 miles north to Abu Rashid and built, I don't know, something that may have actually resembled a pyramid at one time (that was the only pyramid I saw while in Egypt).

Why did Radedef go 90 miles north to build a pyramid? Clearly there was plenty of room on the Gizeh Plateau since Khafre and Menkara had not yet build their pyramids and on one had yet built any of the funerary pyramids (except those for Khufu's wives).

Give the poor construction of Radedef's pyramid which is not even remotely close in style or quality to the pyramid allegedly built by Khufu and Khafre, it just doesn't fit, unless one believes that the engineers, architects and craftsmen who built Khufu's pyramid and were still living at the time of Radedef drank from the well of forgetfulness and completely forgot how to design and build pyramids for a few years.

You might get away with attributing the Great Pyramids to the very first dynasty or even a pre-dynastic culture, but it's quite clear Khufu didn't build squat and he even says he repaired the Great Pyramid, but never makes any claims he built it.


However, to date the Egyptians built the pyramids, and the Chinese built lasting infrastructure, and the Harappan people had cities with sewage and water drainage systems.
"Caucasoid civilization" doesn't even come close to rivaling these achievements. If such a civilization even existed.

The Indian civilizations were Caucasoid. The majority are R1b Indo-Aryan. The Dravidians are mostly south Asian F, H and L haplo groups.

European may be a better term than Caucasoid. When the Spanish arrived in the Americas, they were totally stunned at the size of the cities, because they had never seen cities that large before. Most medieval and pre-medieval European cities were back-water podunk towns of maybe a 1,000 people or so, and they had no wealth whatsoever.

That's why the Huns, Mongols and others didn't bother invading Europe. There was no profit in it. They'd spend a lot of time, energy and resources to get to a podunk town that might have three pieces of gold and nothing of any value. On the other hand, MENA had large cities, with more than 1 Million people and lots of wealth and plenty of valuable things made of precious metals and rare fabrics.

Europe up through the Middle Ages was small hamlets of maybe 40-60 people, nearly all were related, and very tribal.


Once again, I provided a QUOTE from Zahi Hawas stating, unequivocally, that there was no evidence to suggest Egyptian civilization was older than 5000 years. Hawas said it, I didn't "twist his words"... Meanwhile, you haven't produced one source for Egyptian civilization being 8000 years old. Because it's not.

Hawas is an ethnocentrist. His function is to push the "Egypt is the greatest civilization in the world" agenda.

He lies.

He is one of many who obfuscate and block real archeology by not permitting DNA testing among things, and the reason was he didn't want you to know that King Tut has R1b DNA and he doesn't want you to know that many had red hair, because that would suggest they weren't Egyptians, and in fact they weren't.

Another good example is that Hawas won't let anyone take swabs of the red ocher paint in the Great Pyramid. Why? Because then the red ocher paint would be dated to about 1827 CE and prove that Colonel Howard-Vyse forged the names of both pharaohs whose cartouches are in the Great Pyramid. When the British Museum tested the partial mummy and partial sarcophagus from the 3rd Pyramid of Menkara, the partial mummy was proven to be an intrusive burial from the early Christian period and the sarcophagus from the Saitic period, which proves neither was the mummy of Menkara or the sarcophagus of Menkara as Colonel Howard-Vyse claimed. If someone would test the red ochre paint on the mummy and the sarcophagus, they would find it dates to the 1820s when Colonel Howard-Vyse painted it on them himself, just like he painted the cartouches in the Great Pyramid and the cartouche of Sneferu on a white-washed brick found at his pyramid.

"Egyptian" is an oxymoron anyway. Modern Egyptians are mostly Turks and Arabs, but that doesn't mean they founded Egypt. Egypt lies on a very envious and strategic location, so it should come as no surprise that over the millennium, many came and displaced other groups, only to be displaced themselves.

Menes and his progeny were not Egyptians, and neither were the group(s) he displaced, and there is plenty of evidence of other groups millennium before them.


In North America, again, truly massive ground structures exist around the area of Chillicothe, Ohio — Serpents Mound is one, but there are others — which rival the pyramids of Egypt for their scale and complexity. Again, no indigenous people of North America can take credit for these structures.

I've spent hours walking the Great Serpent Mound, and I've been there on Solstices and Equinoxes and while it is an engineering marvel, it does not in anyway rival the Great Pyramid. It's only about 5 ft in height (less than 2 meters).

You are also wrong. The Adena and Hopewell cultures are known to have built all the mounds in the mid-western US across Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa. All of those mounds were built between 2,500 BCE and 300 CE.

Somebody went from south-central Ohio all the way to Georgia to get Mica, and a lot of it, because they spread in on the ground and buried 4 men on top of it. Then someone else went a very long way to get a butt-load of Mother of Pearl to put on the floor of a burial chamber for one man.

And they had an obsession with extinct animals, carving thousands and thousands of figurines. And they play havoc with archaeology department at Ohio State, because whenever they found the bones of mammoths and mastodons, they reassembled the bones and re-buried them damn near everywhere.

Oddly, they were tall. Very tall. Taller than modern humans. Taller than any other native group in the Americas.

You could ask them about it, but they're all dead. They all died at the same time, on some date around 400 CE.

Near Fort Smith, Arkansas, there are 100,000 dead Adena/Hopewell people. All of them, as in every single one, as in all 100,000 of them died of blunt force trauma (maybe there were flying around like the birds).

If you have access to JSTOR, you can read about it. The University of Washington and the University of Arkansas excavated the area in the 1920s and were shocked to find that every single person, all 100,000 died of blunt force trauma.


In North America, there is evidence of thousands of prehistoric copper mines around the Great Lakes, with NO evidence of who excavated them, and no evidence of where a hundred million pounds of native copper went.

Um, that would be the Adena and Hopewell who buried their people with copper and bronze axes, armor, implements and masks.


Now, that's just in North America. These enigmatic archaeological sites are largely ignored by mainstream Science. They are seldom definitively explained, and are usually left to commercial tourism as the curiosities they are.

Well, that has to do in part with the, um, "superior" Caucasian race here in the US making the unilateral determination that indigenous tribal groups were incapable of civilization.

To some extent, you really can't blame them. I mean when they stumbled upon the Shawnee, who were living in the area of the Great Serpent Mound, it would have been really, really difficult for even the most objective unbiased person to look at the Mound, then look at the Shawnee, then conclude the Shawnee built the Mound (and others) or were even capable of building them.


Stonehenge, for instance, is OLDER than the Egyptian civilization (but about the same age as the Ice Man) and couldn't possibly have been built by the later, technically lacking "Druids"... The various henges and monolithic structures of the UK and Europe are true mysteries. Nobody knows WHO the fuck built them.

Which Stone Henge? There are 3 stone henges in one. The people who built the first phase of Stone Henge had a thing for grapes, which, um, grew in the British Isles, because, um, it was warm enough to grow grapes.

The two different peoples who built the 2nd and 3rd Phases of Stone Henge got ripped off, because by that time, grapes no longer were growing in the British Isles, thanks to some jack-ass son-of-a-bitch who told some sob story about global warming and got people to quite warming the globe.

Anyone know what a "quartan fever" is? It's a fever that comes and then breaks about every 4 days (hence 'quartan') it is is caused by malaria. More than 60% of the people in the British Isles suffered from malaria up until when? Up until the last mini-Ice Age, which killed all the mosquitoes in the British Isles and freed the people from that misery.


In North America, in Colorado, there is evidence of ancient coal mines at unheard-of depths (over 800 feet deep) with heavily oxidized coal deposits (having been exposed to air for centuries, at least, if not thousands of years). Again, no indigenous people can take credit for these engineering marvels. It must have been a long-forgotten, technically sophisticated civilization.

So? There are ancient gold mines in southeast Africa, some of which have been dated to 40,000 years ago. In fact, mining companies used to use archaeologists to find gold mines. They were even kind enough to allow the archaeologists to do their thing before diving in.

That only proves what I have been saying repeatedly on this forum for the last 5 years, that the overwhelming bulk of the evidence leads one to only one of two possible conclusions:

1) one or more civilizations in the past were comparably advanced enough to be equivalent to today's modern civilizations; or

2) extra-terrestrials were here on Earth helping people (or using people for their own ends or whatever).

Regardless, Academicians lie.


my personal theories about egypt (and africa) are these - until about approx 6000BC the sahara desert was the sahara RAINFOREST and it covered most of the top half of africa.

Sahara Desert is redundant. Sahara means "desert." That's like saying the burrito burrito or the taco taco (which is redundant).

I'd say 6,000 BCE would be middling. The Kuwait River was dead by 5,000 BCE. By 6,000 BCE it was no longer a rain forest, but it was still very much a temperate zone, just like you'd see now in Europe or the Americas, or in sub-Saharan Africa or South America. The transformation began immediately after the destruction of the western ice sheet on Antarctica.

The British, French, Germans and Italians were responsible for the rapid intensification of the Sahara. By establishing colonies with borders, semi-nomadic herders who once roamed the region from coast to coast were confined to grazing in just a small area with the border of a colony. That destroyed most of the remaining vegetation through over-grazing.


Well Jericho was inhabited off and on for the last 8 to 10,000 years, as it lay on the trade route and cross roads to the east. And Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city, and the Sumer, (taken to include the prehistoric Ubaid) have no mention of something in the range of 100000 BC ...

Most of the documentation I have seen dates Jericho to about 7,000 BCE. That was a well-developed civilization that lived in tenement-style houses with painted frescoes on the walls.

[tahn1000]

Sahara Desert is redundant. Sahara means "desert." That's like saying the burrito burrito or the taco taco (which is redundant).

I'd say 6,000 BCE would be middling. The Kuwait River was dead by 5,000 BCE. By 6,000 BCE it was no longer a rain forest, but it was still very much a temperate zone, just like you'd see now in Europe or the Americas, or in sub-Saharan Africa or South America. The transformation began immediately after the destruction of the western ice sheet on Antarctica.

The British, French, Germans and Italians were responsible for the rapid intensification of the Sahara. By establishing colonies with borders, semi-nomadic herders who once roamed the region from coast to coast were confined to grazing in just a small area with the border of a colony. That destroyed most of the remaining vegetation through over-grazing.


i used the name to give a reference to the vastness of this once rainforest. and ofcourse rivers would dry up without the rainforest there to attract the rain to the continent.

also i don't believe that there was an ice age. as in spontaneous (or over time) covering of ice or lowering of temperature across the whole earth.

[Beatnik Bob]

Not so fast there.

Yes, there is evidence that Egyptians built pyramids, but there is no evidence they built the pyramids on the Gizeh Plateau. In fact, the evidence is contrary to that.

What is currently preach ad nauseum is that Sneferu built the White Pyramid which collapsed so that caused a change of plans resulting in the Bent Pyramid and then Khufu figured it out and built the Great Pyramid, Khafre built the 2nd and Menkara built the 3rd pyramid.
I believe we are on the same page here.
I was merely pointing out that some engineers have suggested that building the pyramids today, with our technology, would still be difficult. And some say impossible, given the technology available at the time.

And I think we can all agree that the pyramids were not built by white red-heads.


The Indian civilizations were Caucasoid. The majority are R1b Indo-Aryan. The Dravidians are mostly south Asian F, H and L haplo groups.

European may be a better term than Caucasoid. When the Spanish arrived in the Americas, they were totally stunned at the size of the cities, because they had never seen cities that large before. Most medieval and pre-medieval European cities were back-water podunk towns of maybe a 1,000 people or so, and they had no wealth whatsoever.
Yes, I know Indians were Caucasoid (with the exception of prehistoric Indians in Southern India, who were no doubt "Dravidian").

However, this whole time Doc has been using "white and red-haired" as proof of "Caucasian civilization." So I have no option but to assume he is using "Caucasian" as a euphemism for "European." So, given the context, I'll play along with that.
Even though I recognize that true Caucasians/Aryans are closer to Iranians than red-headed Europeans.

[Doc Velocity]

However, this whole time Doc has been using "white and red-haired" as proof of "Caucasian civilization." So I have no option but to assume he is using "Caucasian" as a euphemism for "European."

You mean you "have no option" other than to ignore my statement that most indigenous Europeans are Caucasian, but most Caucasians are NOT European, nor even white-skinned?

I'm sure my suggestion that white, red-haired human beings may have comprised a very advanced civilization in prehistory is an especially hateful contention to those who despise the white race or who attempt to blame the white race for all the social ills of modern times.

To those who simply won't tolerate a white race as a prehistoric empire, I can only say grow up and get over your racism.

Fact is that — in spite of the racist belief that Homo sapiens MUST have originated as a dark-skinned species BECAUSE they came out of Africa — there is no evidence that Homo sapiens started out as a Negroid, or a Caucasoid, or as a Mongoloid race.

Inasmuch as skin pigment is wholly dependent on ever-changing climatic factors, you cannot point to the continent we now call Africa and tell me that it could only produce dark-skinned human beings 200,000 years ago, or 750,000 years ago, or 7 million years ago.

That's an impossible call, given that Africa's climate has changed many, many times during the afore-mentioned span of ages. Our species actually came into existence during a relatively mild global climate. Chances are, the original Homo sapiens were, indeed, of light to medium complexion.

Even the dark-skinned Africans today are born with pale complexions and blue eyes, which turn dark within a few hours after birth as the melanin in their skin and eyes reacts to light. The palms of their hands and soles of the feet remain medium-complected, as well, indicating that the base human color is a light or medium complexion.

Again, these are hateful facts to the racists out there, but they are facts, nonetheless.

— Doc Velocity

[TC]

Greetings from Egypt.! Its tough to find a connection out here...and expensive.. but ok its the desert.

Anyway its fantastic here, everywhere you set foot, its history, ancient, and beyond words. You see the start of civilization and culture, and you understand the magnificence of the early population of Egypt. There is soooooo much evidence that points to an advanced group of people that settled this area, both in their habitat and tools, copper and bronze and iron, things that really shouldn't be here for the dated period, and no clear evidence as to how or why this technology ended up in a pre historic Egypt.

As I'm on a public PC with limited time, I'll wait till I'm home with a photo downloads ( no port to plug into)

This morning we're off to the Libyan border to check out another burial site....should be interesting. The food here is ...uhh well... different... ( in direr need of a Big Mac...

I'll check in later this week ... be good.

TC

[Doc Velocity]

Right on, Top Cat... You have GOT to get a picture of yourself with Zahi Hawas, there's gotta be a big, fat Zahi Hawas poster there in Cairo. Shit, that guy's so arrogant, there might be a Zahi Hawas statue in Cairo. Wouldn't be surprised.

LOL

Can't wait to see the photos.

— Doc Velocity

[tahn1000]

lay off. the guy's a legend.

[EzraBrooks]

So many people look with wonder at the remaining evidence of what seems to be extremely advanced ancient civilizations, and they surmise that those peoples must have entertained visitors from other planets. Why?

I mean it's possible, I suppose, but isn't it as likely that the ancient astronauts launched here, rather than landed? Our goal is to explore heavens, would they not have done the same if they advanced to the point of ability?

Unless you believe that NASA only developed the ability to shoot rockets into space as a result of alien visitation, then so could those who lived here before in passed ages, have developed technology. No?

[Beatnik Bob]

Shorty, it will be great to see your Egypt pics! :D Which parts of Egypt are you working in specifically for burial sites?



You mean you "have no option" other than to ignore my statement that most indigenous Europeans are Caucasian, but most Caucasians are NOT European, nor even white-skinned?
No, I mean I have no option but to take you seriously when you refer to red-haired white people as the progenitors of a "Caucasian Civilization."


I'm sure my suggestion that white, red-haired human beings may have comprised a very advanced civilization in prehistory is an especially hateful contention to those who despise the white race or who attempt to blame the white race for all the social ills of modern times.
That's not really relevant. If there was any actual proof that "red-haired whites" had created a vast civilization I would be wiling to accept the prospect.


To those who simply won't tolerate a white race as a prehistoric empire, I can only say grow up and get over your racism.
Or to you they could say, grow up and stop believing in fairy tales.

If it's not a fairy tale, prove it.


Fact is that — in spite of the racist belief that Homo sapiens MUST have originated as a dark-skinned species BECAUSE they came out of Africa — there is no evidence that Homo sapiens started out as a Negroid, or a Caucasoid, or as a Mongoloid race.
Well again, this has nothing to do with racism. At the moment, you are the only one attempting to make this a race issue.

Instead of providing evidence of infrastructure, for a vast empire, directly attributed to "red-haired whites" you chose to complain about how nobody believes that "red-haired whites" created a "vast empire."

[Doc Velocity]

If there was any actual proof that "red-haired whites" had created a vast civilization I would be wiling to accept the prospect.

Look around you. The current, very sophisticated civilization in which you live certainly originated in Europe. The high level of technical sophistication that we associate with Western Civilization comes straight out of Europe and the USA, which are predominantly Caucasian cultures, if not red-headed.

Sorry, no, Eastern Civilization has been playing catch-up with Western Civilization for decades. China's modern technology, for example, is largely stolen and infrequently purchased from Western nations.

That's something our spineless president needs to discuss with President Hu this week, eh? China's shameless technology theft and copyright infringement.

— Doc Velocity

[Doc Velocity]

Regardless, Academicians lie.

With so little regard for academia and academicians, where the fuck do you pull down your information, Yossarian? Well, yes, you must rely on certain academics out there; although, as you say, most all are rooted in the fucking dogma of their respective fields.

This is what I know about Academia... Most professors — most tenured professors — are functionally illiterate. They can't compose a coherent sentence on paper to save their fucking lives. These are people who are required to compose thought-leadership articles on a regular basis in order to maintain their fucking jobs.

But they can't write. They have no grammar. They don't know what parallelism means. They reach for a dictionary when you mention the word gerund, okay. They're all into research, but they can't compile worth a shit.

In short, most of your tenured professors can talk a good game, but they can't play it to save their asses.

How do I know this? Because I'm one of the people that tenured professors contract to write their papers for them. I get paid to make these assholes read properly, if you can believe that.

My wife and I are both writers, and we interview these professors, okay, for several hours. We record the interviews. We transcribe the interviews, we try to piece together some coherent thoughts taken from the discussion, and we turn it into a paper — which we then sell back to the prof so he can sign his name to it and submit it for publishing.

In the course of this process, over the years, we've gained a substantial education in a number of areas, as you might imagine.

But what never fails to amaze me is that the professors never learn how to write, even when we present them with quality writing based on their own nebulous concepts. They pay somebody else to make them sound cogent, right.

As all this relates to the OP, it doesn't. Sorry.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

Look around you. The current, very sophisticated civilization in which you live certainly originated in Europe.
Yes, do to Italian and Greek culture. And in the Middle Ages, due to the advancements of Arabs and Chinese.


The high level of technical sophistication that we associate with Western Civilization comes straight out of Europe and the USA, which are predominantly Caucasian cultures, if not red-headed.
Red hair is such a completely obscure demographic, even in Europe, it accounts for less than 10%.


Sorry, no, Eastern Civilization has been playing catch-up with Western Civilization for decades.
And interestingly, it is EASTERN Europe where the majority of blond hair, red hair, or fairer skin are found. Outside of Russia, Baltic states, Ukraine, etc. Ireland and Norther Britain are the only places with significant amounts of red hair.

Do you know what's ironic about this? "Western Civilization" as we know it was not composed of barbarians. "Barbarians," or people from the north who had things like red and blond hair.
For an example, ancient Roman women would have the hair cut off of blond/red-haired slaves in order to make wigs--because those alleles simply did not exist in Latin culture.
The same goes for Hellenistic and ancient Greek culture.

I didn't want this discussion to turn into a race issue (I just wanted you to actually provide a shred of evidence).
But if you are going to make it an issue of race, you will always fail. Because blonds and red-heads, even in Roman and Greek times, were barbarians. They were not "sophisticated."

Unless you think today's western culture and thought are based on vikings and northern tribes rather than Rome and Athens.
Which is patently false. All modern culture that Northern Europeans developed came from their interactions with Latins.

And you can see evidence of this when you see how blond and red-headed easterners live. They aren't particularly sophisticated. It's only the western red-heads that have a level of (what you assume) is "high culture"--only because of the Greco-Roman establishment (Which had been further influenced by Mesopotamian and Asian culture).


That said, I don't really care about the culture war you are trying to incite here. I see all cultures as equally valuable and contributing in their own way. Even unadvanced and unsophisticated red-headed barbarians weren't truly unadvanced or unsophisticated. Because in my opinion, even they had a thriving and rich culture of art and belief.
They just didn't have roads, aqueducts, sanitation, arches, baths, or other feats in engineering in science, like the Romans did.
Obviously, they can be developed in their own right without having advanced science or engineering.

But the point is, you are saying that a bunch of barbarians had one of the greatest cultures of sophistication in the world--using the contemporary definition of "sophistication."
And that is just utterly false.
They had never at any time built anything that was noteworthy. Except maybe Stonehenge (but no tribes have claimed credit for it).


I can tell by your adamant behavior concerning this ludicrous theory that you obviously have red hair though. :grin

Waddup barbarian. :w00t:

[Beatnik Bob]

And by the way. The mounds in North America were built by American Indians.
Hernando De Soto came to Southeast America and saw fortified villages of natives with mounds (for burial of rulers) and plazas.

Cahokia was one of the largest American Indian metropolises. And the area even sported some pyramid-like mounds where they buried rulers, nobles, etc.

(Edit) ARTCLE: http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1969/4/1969_4_60.shtml

The reason American Indians may have known little about the mound building civilizations is because Hernando de Soto visited in the South and reported a great civilization.
However, when Europeans got there in later periods, the places were depopulated and empty in many areas.

Historians say this is due to the European diseases. It wiped the American Indians out en masse.
Leaving behind random tribes who probably hadn't had much interaction with the people living in the cities.

[Doc Velocity]

I can tell by your adamant behavior concerning this ludicrous theory that you obviously have red hair though. :grin Waddup barbarian. :w00t:

Actually, no, it was rather fawn brown before going gray and white. I've always favored red-headed women, however.

As expected, the dogmatists have unleashed their Hopewells and Adenas and Mississippian cultures to "explain" the ancient terraforming and mining evidence of North America. Of course, we don't know the true names of these cultures, as we know tribal names today. But we're pretty sure that those primitive people were - what? - the landbridge people from Asia. Right.

Ludicrous theories? Well, we shall see.

— Doc Velocity

[Beatnik Bob]

Actually, no, it was rather fawn brown before going gray and white. I've always favored red-headed women, however.

As expected, the dogmatists have unleashed their Hopewells and Adenas and Mississippian cultures to "explain" the ancient terraforming and mining evidence of North America. Of course, we don't know the true names of these cultures, as we know tribal names today. But we're pretty sure that those primitive people were - what? - the landbridge people from Asia. Right.

Ludicrous theories? Well, we shall see.
How do you explain Hernando de Soto's experience?

Or the interactions that French explorers had when they came to the southern U.S. in the 1560s?
Obviously, they were primitive because their society had been almost completely depopulated. The North American setting when Europeans started to settle the area en masse about 100 or so years later was essentially post-apocalyptic.
The people who settled North America weren't completely archaic though. (Though the surrounding tribes may have been somewhat).

Anyway, concerning the land bridge, Inuits deny they would have crossed on a bridge.
(I believe someone mentioned this earlier. How they travel by boat/canoe).

[TC]

Well its 2 am stockholm time, we landed at 12....dead tired. Can't sleep so I'll post a bit of the last few days. We spent three days at a site on the Libyan border ( escorted by Egyptian culture officials...uggg) called Gilf Kebir, its quite researched already, but still under going study.

This place is vast, something like 8000 square kilometers of high plateau and not a drop of water anywhere. Dating is debated, but between 8,000 and 10,000 years is within the ball park.

For all the evidence found, this is place that shows an advanced civilization that flourished outside of the Nile region, cave paintings depicting every aspect of life with a huge verity of animal life that could only exist with a humid grassy plain and unlimited water source.

Probably most interesting were pieces of marine coral and obvious water born material, ( the coral could have been carried there by the inhabitants)
sediments layered down in a distinct form clearly showing large amounts of flowing water.

We were escorted by Hawass's officials the entire time, and vary limited in what we were allowed to photograph....( expected) in fact we were instructed to NOT claim any reference to the Sphinx and earlier dating... they seem pretty hung up on its Egyptian origin, even though the obvious erosion marks ( see photo) show a clear water factor.

Anyway... I'm gonna hit the sack, its 3 am here..I'll continue this in the morning with more pics. You can click on the two images for a better look.

Cheers, TC

[TC]

The primary study of this trip is climate impact and how it changed cultures, and for the majority of these sites its all the same period of time that the savanna conditions began to dry up. Stefan Kropelin's work has brought controversy to the earlier theory that the north African region became dry in a short period of time, and the core samples on display reveal sediment layers that were gradually created over a long time . Their work shows that desert conditions were in place some 3000 years ago, and had forced the population to hold to the Nile for survival. This slow process is estimated to have started as early as 6000 years ago, quite different from the over night theories that have dominated history.

To be sure, this study and seminar was not intended to confront popular Egyptian dogma regarding who built what and when, but after the third day it became obvious that peer reviewed research was pissing off the two representatives from the Cairo museum, who continually reminded us that the Sphinx is untouched and solely of Egyptian origin.

As the pictures from the previous post and the one below show distinct horizontal water erosion, something that should not exist according to Egyptian time periods for construction of the Sphinx, if we take the core samples as accurate. And by Thursday evening this evidence was so obvious that our charming hosts left the building. Personally these guys were culture watch dogs of the highest order, and their mission was damage control, going so far as to request editing the pictures taken. Which we flatly refused to do as we never set foot on any military reserve. ( their argument)

By effectively dating the earlier groups that had once flourished outside of the water source of the Nile, we can better see the possibility of a culture to build something as substantial as the Sphinx, something preceding the dynasty periods of early Egypt.

This study clearly shows that 3 distinct flooding periods existed after the building of the Sphinx, which would directly be in conflict with their current views.


Continued;

[TC]

Here is some photos from Gilf Kebir. Notice the marine sediment, this is quite interesting, as it really doesn't belong in the solidified dune areas, leading researchers to believe this was brought from somewhere else. ( picture 2 and 3)

Picture 1 shows the remains of a wall and small tunnel below, but no human remains in the area, so we suspect its not part of a burial chamber, but rather part of a structure. No information as to who built it, other a mud/ grass substance like adobe. We know that the Mehrgarh of Asia used similar brick work some 7000 years ago, as well as the Sumerians and Minoan.

Picture 4 shows water born material on a high plateau over looking the desert valley below, remember this is one of the most arid landscapes in the world, so this material is an enigma.

Picture 5 showing water cuts at El Ain Sokhna, obvious erosion has taken place on several occasions, much more than the marginal rain of the last 3000 years.

[TC]

Pictures 4 and 5

Continued;

[Doc Velocity]

Hey, TopCat, are you inciting the violence and rioting in Egypt right now?
Right on, brutha...
http://forums.armageddononline.org/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=1216

Too bad the AO template doesn't permit animated gifs. That one is creepy.

— Doc Velocity

[Traveler]

Well I'm glad to see that you are experiencing first hand the politics of science that covers up so much information to paint a desired picture regardless of the facts.

However I do hope you manage to obtain some honest and solid conclusions as to the dates and cultural remains found there.

Please try and get some pictures of the types of animals painted there and post as many as you can on the forum just in case your films get taken when you leave. This will be a safe storage for them in case it is deemed that you have the wrong view on things.

[Beatnik Bob]

Speaking for TC, all cell phones and internet were shut down in Egypt recently by the government (to quell protests).

So we're not going to hear from TC for some time. Also, my prayers go out to your safety TC.

[bluenose_ian]

Nice One Shortround, good to see an AO Member out in the field, hope you post some more of your findings.




Stonehenge, for instance, is OLDER than the Egyptian civilization (but about the same age as the Ice Man) and couldn't possibly have been built by the later, technically lacking "Druids"... The various henges and monolithic structures of the UK and Europe are true mysteries. Nobody knows WHO the fuck built them.



Now that aint right.

Avebury which was a much more important and bigger site than Stonehenge although built over 600 hundred years, it is a little older than Stonehenge and building is thought to have started arond 3800BC with the building of the Avenue, Stonehenge around 300BC, The Stones came from the Preseli Montains for Stone Henge, The Transportation of the stones has also been thought to be proved.

How is that older than the whole of Egyptian Civilisation???????


Evidence from digs, has suggested Neolithic Hunter's started farming in the area around 4000BC which would have involved large communities, almost city like for the times, plenty of evidence suggest those large communities have built all the henges within that 25 mile area.

Surrounding Stone Henge is plenty of burial mounds thought to be the heirachy of the huge communities that worked and lived in the area, also carbon dated around the same time.

plenty of tools have been found around the area around the area for the same date.


So please, How is it a mystery who built them???


Now if you stated why they was built. that is more the mystery.

[Rabid1]

This is for TC, well or others, but you said you were looking for erosion on the Sphinx. The Sphinx has long been held as this marvel, but recently (and I don't know if this is a new idea or just new to me) I saw on TV a theory that the Sphinx was an artifact of opportunity. That it was carved from a natural formation that didn't require that much effort on the creators part. The show went on to show several outcroppings in the Egyptian desert that strikingly resembled the outline of the Sphinx. Is this one of the reasons Hawass is so paranoid about giving access to it? The show hinted the Sphinx could have even been altered from a previous carving.

[TC]

Well this is crux of the problem. As it is right now, we couldn't get close enough to examine at close hand, but you can see erosion, both vertical and horizontal even from a distance. The study we did that week was to confirm a wet Egypt, and try to date those periods, and of course put these periods in the dating of artifacts found at various sites.

And as a by-product of this study is the Sphinx. We were escorted by "Egyptian history officials"...*cough.. that monitored our activity.. and photos. I did manage to get two pictures with the zoom lens of the north side, ( I'm on a work computer) and I'll post them later. You can see two separate fracture or cut lines below the neck area, so there is evidence of some kind of alterations.

[TC]

Heres two photos of the neck area of the Sphinx, ( the two they didn't edit) you can clearly see alterations. ( supposedly repair work) The majority of research ( private) are convinced that the Sphinx was built before the Great Pyramids, and by an advanced culture. Horizontal water marks reveal that moving water did indeed cause erosion, and only a wet and lush climate could cause this amount of flood water. ( 3 meters high )

They ( the history overlords ) are obsessed with the notion that its solely Egyptian in construction, in fact ALL the tourist guides, right down to the lowly camel jockey are instructed to inform everybody that the Sphinx is of one piece... and they become hysterical if you even question this issue. Hell, even the raggedy guy who runs the parking lot next to the Pyramids got upset when we suggested the Sphinx was not of Egyptian origin....

[Doc Velocity]

Horizontal water marks reveal that moving water did indeed cause erosion, and only a wet and lush climate could cause this amount of flood water.

Pardon, TC, did you not mean to say the vertical erosion marks are indicative of heavy exposure to a wet climate?

As I recall, before the "lush climate" theory arose, the horizontal marks were typically attributed to wind erosion in the desert climate — like exposure to a sandblaster for a few millennia. The anomalous vertical erosion was not usually addressed.

When it was shown that the oldest erosion was vertical in orientation, archaeologists had to seriously reconsider that heavy rains had eroded the Sphinx for many millennia before the advent of desert conditions.

Then, again, you were the guy on the ground there with the most current info, so please correct me.

– Doc Velocity

[TC]

The cutting ( see photo) reviles cutting by water horizontally with flood washed sand and stone. It lays about 3 meters from the base area, and obviously before the Sahara was in existence. There is vertical erosion as well, showing that water is the prime tool.

Wind and sand are also at play here, but this took place after the climate shift of 4000 years ago. They have gone to huge efforts to hide this evidence as it puts their history in question. ( they did a shabby job of hanging shrouds and tarps to cover these cuts...

[Doc Velocity]

Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that there was a prehistoric civilization. However, you are suggesting that this civilization was Caucasian, specifically European Caucasian (in terms of "red-haired" people--which could only by Europeans or prehistoric Iranians).

Well, why not? What is the prejudice against a tall, white race of humans of advanced knowledge and technology in prehistory? There are, in fact — whether you wish to acknowledge it or not — several white-skinned messiah traditions among both North and South American tribes and civilizations, dating back hundreds of years, long before the advent of Columbus and Coronado and the more modern Europeans.

I think this is pretty interesting, as UFO lore goes:

Tall Whites (http://www.ufopsi.com/articles/tallwhites.html)

In this modern UFO bedtime story, there's a race of tall, white humanoids (or hominids, anyway) living out in the remote desert near Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. These things are described as averaging or exceeding 6 feet in height, with white skin, blue eyes, platinum hair, and a very volatile disposition... They can be quite friendly at times, but are proud and even dangerously aggressive at other times.

Airman Charles Hall, who claims to have spoken and interacted with these Tall Whites, says he thinks they've been out there since the 1950s, but that they may have been out there for over a century.... How much longer than a century, he doesn't offer to speculate.

Compare the aggressive (even dangerous) disposition of the alleged Tall Whites with the Paiute and Ute legends of their tribal wars with aggressive and deadly red-headed giants in the American West in Pre-Columbian times. Compare the friendly and instructive disposition of the alleged Tall Whites with Hopi legends of their True White Brother in the American Southwest.

Of course, the "critical thinkers" out there will probably discard the information without serious consideration, which is typical.

– Doc Velocity

[TC]

Race used in context of human kind is rather antiquated in its usage, we refer to aliens as just aliens, green, purple, or otherwise, as it really doesn't matter to us.

As for Egypt all we have is research to form a viable view, and hopefully keep it within the realm of accepted science and the confirmed findings within the North African region to create an accepted theory.

And this research leads us to the belief that this region was a melting pot of sorts, primarily a makeup of both African and Middle eastern migrations. The bone structure of several ancient burial sites along the Libyan border show a tall group of people existing in Pre Egyptian culture environments, ( 6000 to 8000 years) during the lush savanna period.

This group would probably represent the early hunter/gatherer type that dominated most of the north African area, but having the ability of farming and permanent structures along with advanced tool making would suggest an impute from another culture, possibly of middle eastern origin.

Brick work found is similar to Sumerian and other Mediterranean culture, as well as unused copper ore found in the sites. Sadly due to the harsh desert environment, the finds are scarce and in poor condition, at least the documented ones.

It would be pure speculation to inject an alien visitation or impute with this group as no specific stone work or tools that would suggest an advanced capability in the realm of building the Sphinx or the Pyramids. The missing link so to speak is this step beyond brick housing and metallurgy, ( tools) and we are hard pressed to find any solid proof that this original group had anything beyond just what is established at the current point of research.

The focus of our study was a confirmation of climate and habitation during the wet era, and who may have established a permanent dwelling place in regards to food source. But one thing becomes apparent, the dating of certain... *established icons.. is off the chart when applied science is used.

[Rabid1]

Well, why not? What is the prejudice against a tall, white race of humans of advanced knowledge and technology in prehistory? There are, in fact — whether you wish to acknowledge it or not — several white-skinned messiah traditions among both North and South American tribes and civilizations, dating back hundreds of years, long before the advent of Columbus and Coronado and the more modern Europeans.

I think this is pretty interesting, as UFO lore goes:

Tall Whites (http://www.ufopsi.com/articles/tallwhites.html)

Airman Charles Hall, who claims to have spoken and interacted with these Tall Whites, says he thinks they've been out there since the 1950s, but that they may have been out there for over a century.... How much longer than a century, he doesn't offer to speculate.

Compare the aggressive (even dangerous) disposition of the alleged Tall Whites with the Paiute and Ute legends of their tribal wars with aggressive and deadly read-headed giants in the American West in Pre-Columbian times. Compare the friendly and instructive disposition of the alleged Tall Whites with Hopi legends of their True White Brother in the American Southwest.

Of course, the "critical thinkers" out there will probably discard the information without serious consideration, which is typical.

– Doc Velocity

or you have another author writing fiction with claims of truth to sell books that are not that well written or original. Who after being stationed in the region stole from Native lore to create "The Tall Whites" who no one else has ever seen or heard of. Oh wait not true, plenty of "witnesses" (nutjobs) came forward after the books came out. That in and of itself tells you what bullshit this is. Hall is just another greedy example of why it is so hard to get anyone to take UFOs seriously.

[Doc Velocity]

or you have another author writing fiction... Who after being stationed in the region stole from Native lore to create "The Tall Whites" who no one else has ever seen or heard of... That in and of itself tells you what bullshit this is.

Ah, it's finally starting to sink in... "stole native lore"... Neverminding, of course, the ORIGIN of the native lore.

Regardless of the veracity of Hall's accounts, we see the perpetuation of the "myth" of tall, white-skinned humanoids (or aliens, or whatever) interacting with the comparatively unsophisticated Human species, in the distant past and right up to the present.

Call it fiction if you wish, with no more evidence to prove your contention than Charles Hall has evidence to prove his story.

My point is and has always been that these "myths" date back hundreds and perhaps thousands of years. I cited the Paiute and Hopi legends of North America, but the Pre-Columbian civilizations of South America had similar legends of technically-advanced white interlopers who allegedly trained the aboriginals in farming, medicine and astronomy, and then went on their way, vowing to someday return (as does any good messiah).

Is it beyond credulity to suppose there is a grain of truth at the center of so many legends?

When I first mentioned this idea here, citing the tall, red-headed European Caucasian mummies discovered in the Western China in the 20th Century — whose ages have been variously estimated at anywhere from 4000 to 7000 years — my suggestion was that perhaps THESE were the mysterious tall, white messiahs of old. They were far more technically sophisticated and distinctly different from the primitive Mongol nomads of Central and Eastern Asia, and these red-headed Caucasians have been, in fact, genetically identified as European in origin.

Just like the 5000-year-old Ice Man of the Alps, whose anomalous fine copper axe rewrote our modern understanding of the Copper Age by a thousand years. That axe, that technology, wasn't supposed to exist in the Stone Age. Yet it did.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck about race. If the various aboriginal messiah myths consistently described short, yellow interlopers, then I'd be talking about the Short Yellows. Or the Medium-Sized Blacks. Or whomever was consistently mentioned in aboriginal lore.

As it happens, the constant description is of tall, white, often red-headed interlopers. And, lo, there are anomalous tall, Caucasian, red-headed mummies discovered out there in Western China. They are anthropological mysteries. Ask the Chinese, who keep the mummies under tight security.

What is distinctly racist in the most negative sense of the word are those who AUTOMATICALLY REJECT the possibility of tall, white, red-headed interlopers simply because they seem to be Caucasian.

I mean, realistically, skin pigmentation is based on climate and geographic locale. What we now know about Africa is that it has NOT always been a continent of tropic jungles and savannas and expansive desert. In fact, what we now call the Sahara was once quite temperate, a lush and rain-drenched paradise, really.

So, what is so extraordinary about a technically-advanced white-skinned people populating temperate North Africa and the Mediterranean region in the very ancient past? Say, 10,000 years ago, at the approximate time of the construction of the Sphinx?

And what, then, would be so extraordinary about such an advanced people traveling the entire planet, encountering, enlightening — perhaps even enslaving — aboriginals the world over for, perhaps, thousands of years? And what would be so improbable about these encounters being remembered and passed down in tribal lore?

Or maybe we can simply dismiss these tall, white interlopers as the products of overactive imaginations (across several continents and cultures and many ages), as the narrow-minded dogmatists prefer to characterize them.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

The you should have got point. You only lessen it by adding in someone like Hall. The stories of mythical whites also coincide with christ mythos type stories on many continents. Which is why to simply deny their existence is crazy. Perhaps the only reason Jesus story took is that the world in that area was more interconnected to spread the story. The fact that so many stories exist in cultures that had no contact with each other suggests a certain validity to them. But it is no more proof of UFOs or hugely advanced cultures than snow is proof of Santa.

[Doc Velocity]

But it is no more proof of UFOs or hugely advanced cultures than snow is proof of Santa.

I don't happen to believe in extraterrestrial UFOs. There is no proof of their extraterrestrial origin, but the fact that UFOs exist is undeniable.

I used the Hall story as a modern example of the "tall, white, advanced race" myth — apparently the story continues to evolve across time and culture, but the very ancient origins of the myth are what interest me.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

I don't happen to believe in extraterrestrial UFOs. There is no proof of their extraterrestrial origin, but the fact that UFOs exist is undeniable.

I used the Hall story as a modern example of the "tall, white, advanced race" myth — apparently the story continues to evolve across time and culture, but the very ancient origins of the myth are what interest me.

— Doc Velocity

Perhaps I take umbrage at the mention of Hall because of knowing people of the Moapa Band that remember him as a spiritual wannabe who wanted to learn "Indian Shamanism" which they considered insulting to begin with. I wouldn't consider his works of fiction as a continuation or evolution, a bastardization or rape of is a better description.

[Doc Velocity]

I wouldn't consider [Hall's] works of fiction as a continuation or evolution, a bastardization or rape of is a better description.

Well, yes, in the same vein as Carlos Castaneda's "anthropological" accounts of don Juan Matus and Yaqui mysticism, as well as his bizarre speculations on immortal Toltec "vampires," which intellectually insulted a great many of those who initially accepted Castaneda's work as "the real thing"... The fact remains that Castaneda's fiction (if that is what it was) influenced whole generations of very intelligent and educated readers for nearly 40 years.

Thus, Castaneda virtually invented and perpetuated a new mythos based on Central American aboriginal lore — a new mythos that may in centuries to come be legitimately pondered by scholars.

I mean, hell, Charles Hall's fiction (if that is what it is) may seem far out, but no more so than a lot of religions. Or comic book superheroes. Or George Lucas films.

These fictional works may someday in the distant future be looked upon, heaven help us, as holy scriptures, tales of gods and demigods and mystical forces employed for both good and evil ends.

Charles Hall is just taking his shot at bible-writing. As do we all.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

I mean, hell, Charles Hall's fiction (if that is what it is) may seem far out, but no more so than a lot of religions. Or comic book superheroes. Or George Lucas films.



I agree. I don;t think science will be discovering and removing the gullible gene anytime soon.

[Doc Velocity]

Just an interesting asides. I wrote to Charles James Hall and posed a number of questions to him regarding his series of books on the Tall Whites; and, surprisingly, Hall answered my inquiries (today, as a matter of fact). The following is his reply:


Thank you for writing. I don't like to ruin the reading experience for those who have not yet read the Millennial Hospitality series, & I reserve detailed replies for those who still have questions after reading the books.

I will answer a few of your questions, however. I am currently in remission from Wegener's Granulomatosis, and will remain on light chemotherapy for the rest of my life. Everything in the books is true, & happened to me. Only the names of people and places were disguised in the first three volumes. The latest volume uses all actual names and locations. The beings that I call "Tall Whites" are physical and visible to all. They are mortal, even though they live ten times longer than we do.

I suspect you will enjoy reading at least one or two of the Millennial Hospitality series. We receive feedback from people with experiences of their own, who say they have read the entire MH series, five or more times over, & find it therapeutic.

Regards,
Charles James Hall

Now, to me this seems like a brush-off, particularly the part about reserving detailed replies for those who have already read (purchased) his books — at a hefty $25 to $35 per volume, I might add.

I had asked him a number of MUFON-style questions about his encounters and the after-effects of those encounters — if he had any lingering physical symptoms, to be precise. His response about Wegener's Granulomatosis surprised me. It's a fairly life-threatening form of vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels) that requires long-term immunosuppression therapy.

Whether or not he developed Wegener's Granulomatosis as a result of contacting the Tall Whites, he wouldn't elucidate.

Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with the reply.

— Doc Velocity

[Rabid1]

.....

Now, to me this seems like a brush-off, particularly the part about reserving detailed replies for those who have already read (purchased) his books — at a hefty $25 to $35 per volume, I might add........


Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with his reply.

— Doc Velocity

Much like many earth shattering evidence" conferences in UFO and Paranormal. You go, some costing over $100 dollars if you don't know how work their system. Then they present a slide show of all things old and boring, bring out speakers who talk about the amazing evidence they have, and when it comes time for Q&A you ask "So what is this amazing evidence?" To which they have already rehearsed 1,000,000 ways to disguise "Buy the book!". I even had one gentleman try to tell me " Outside the context of the book you would not understand it." Which when I replied "Fuck off. Do you think everyone here is a moron who have to be told how to interpret evidence?" he appeared offended and left the podium. So Sensitive.

[Rabid1]

TC sorry about taking this so far OT.

[Doc Velocity]

Oh, but talk about coincidence... This story just came across the news wire:

Chinese Pull Caucasian Mummy from U.S. Museum Exhibition (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/mystery-of-the-mummys-chinese-travel-ban-2205033.html)


...the opportunity for new audiences in the United States to view the "Beauty of Xiaohe" – a near perfectly preserved mummy from an inhospitable part of western China – has been dealt a blow after it was pulled from an exhibition following a sudden call from the Chinese authorities on the eve of opening. The reason for pulling the mummy and other artefacts from the show remained unclear yesterday (Chinese officials were on New Year holiday) but there were suggestions that the realities of modern Chinese politics may have had a part to play.

The mummy was recovered from China's Tarim Basin, in Xinjiang province. But her Caucasian features raised the prospect that the region's inhabitants were European settlers.

It raises the question about who first settled in Xinjiang and for how long the oil-rich region has been part of China. The questions are important – most notably for the Chinese authorities who face an intermittent separatist movement of nationalist Uighurs, a Turkic-speaking Muslim people who number nine million in Xinjiang.

Fucking shit. Oil and fucking trouble-making Muslims. Again.

— Doc Velocity

[Traveler]

Ok this is a small deviation but is in line with other questions asked here as well.

While doing my research for the demonic lines I came across some interesting folklore that may shed some light on what may have happened in the past in that part of the world.

For the longest of time the dominant demon god in that area was one called Set, also known as Sin. The people he ruled over were a red headed race. They at one time dominated that region. How ever there was a battle between Set and Horus with Horus being the winner and his people basically exterminated the red headed races almost to the last. From that time on the people represented by Horus started to dominate the region. Apparently set lost some rather needed body parts in that battle and there has remained quite a bit of enmity between Set and Horus ever since. Currently Set's main area of influence is our modern medical industries.

In African folklore there is also a record of a people called the strange ones that had red hair and green eyes that came up the Zambezi river and established a settlement there, they went into slave trading and got wiped out there as well. But the time period matches that of events in Egypt and the location of the river mouth is straight down the African coast to Mozambique. The great Zimbabwe ruins is reputed to be a copy of that earlier settlement that was destroyed and it suffered the same fate although it was the Shona tribe that built the later Zimbabwe. The ruins of the first civilization built by the strange ones can still be seen in an area around Inyanga with its slave pits etc.

[TC]

What we have to go by ( documented) and in the realm of accepted archeology are the areas that have confirmed dwelling established. The marginal sites in Libya and the western parts of Egypt represent a migrating group from central Africa in a period of 6000 to 10,000 years ago. And to the east we have the sites of ancient Jericho that date to this period as well, ( upwards of 10,000 years) but this site shows another influence from those of classic north Africa.

The debate so to speak between historians is who may have established the foundation of the Egyptian culture, both in its architecture and knowledge to do so. So far we see the influence of Libyan, Nubian, Syrian, Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite and middle Mediterranean. And huge amounts of effort have been conducted over the years to establish a race definition, which in the end became rather fruitless, seeing as we all carry 99.9% of the same genetics. And modern archeology research in this study has dropped this issue altogether as there is no concrete evidence to say who was who in that period of time.

From what I have seen personally, is that the wet savanna period in north Africa would have supported any number of people, and primarily those who would have migrated from the central African regions. And the early dwelling places and burial sites show that they farmed and produced food sources with grain and domesticated animals. And a lot of advancement took place during that first 1000 years of this existence, at least until the climate began changing to a dryer more desert like condition.

[DaKat]

This coming Saturday I'll be leaving for Egypt



To paraphrase a line from the greatest comedy movie EVER (Airplane),

sounds like you picked the wrong day/week/month/year to go to Egypt!!


Hope you're OK.

[Doc Velocity]

...the wet savanna period in north Africa would have supported any number of people, and primarily those who would have migrated from the central African regions.

I'm a bit reserved about the contention that Central Africans were migrating extensively to populate North Africa in ancient times. What we know today about the indigenous people of North Africa and the Middle East is that they are NOT predominantly Black on a genetic level. Quite the opposite is true — their genetic markers are overwhelmingly Caucasian.

The Bedouins of far North Africa, for example, are only about 4% Black, genetically speaking — they have 96% Caucasian genetic markers. Virtually all indigenous people of North Africa and the Middle East are at least 80% Caucasian, genetically speaking.

Very interestingly, the various Jewish people of North Africa and the Middle East have almost 0% Black genetic markers. Which is odd, when you think about it, because the Jews and their ancestors have been consistently and repeatedly persecuted — not to mention enslaved — dating back to ancient Biblical times.

What this says (to me, anyway) is that Caucasians have dominated North Africa and the Middle East for many, many thousands of years — back to the earliest days of ancient Egypt and probably before.

Meanwhile, here were these goddamned anachronistic and yet technically-sophisticated Europeans using fine copper axes and acupuncture and antibiotics a thousand years before Chinese civilization was born, and certainly before the rise of Egyptian civilization.

Again, where the fuck did the Ice Man of the Alps get all of his advanced technology 5300 years ago?

Well, we know from modern necropsies performed on him that the Ice Man suffered gall bladder disease as a result of prolonged Arsenic poisoning — a direct result of smelting Copper — but he ALSO was undergoing acupuncture therapy for gall bladder disease (he had acupuncture tattoos along his spine, the positions of which are recognized today for the treatment of gall bladder illness).

Ice Man's Tattoos Suggest 5300-year-old Medical System Similar to Acupuncture, 2000 Years Before China "Developed" Acupuncture (http://www.utexas.edu/courses/classicalarch/readings/Iceman_Tattoos.pdf)

Beyond that, he carried a medicine bag of mushrooms of a type known even today for their strong antibiotic properties.

Meaning that these advanced technologies were already well-established before the Ice Man's time. So, how far back are we really talking about for the existence of an advanced European Caucasian civilization? 6000 years? 6500 years? Longer?

Well, we have a number of mummies as proof that European Caucasians – possessing fine fabrics, fine tools and jewelry, not to forget extraordinary ritualistic entombing practices — were already settling Western China nearly a thousand years before Eastern Asians arrived on the scene.

The Mystery of China's Celtic Mummies (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-meeting-of-civilisations-the-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-413638.html)


"From around 1800BC [3800 years ago], the earliest mummies in the Tarim Basin were exclusively Caucausoid, or Europoid," says Professor Victor Mair of Pennsylvania University... East Asian migrants arrived in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin about 3000 years ago, Professor Mair says, while the Uighur peoples arrived after the collapse of the Orkon Uighur Kingdom, based in modern-day Mongolia, around the year 842.

The [4000-year-old] Loulan Beauty... was claimed by the Uighurs as their symbol in song and image, although genetic testing now shows that she was in fact European.

The received wisdom in China says that two hundred years before the birth of Christ, China's emperor Wu Di sent an ambassador to the west to establish an alliance against the marauding Huns, then based in Mongolia. The route across Asia that the emissary, Zhang Qian, took eventually became the Silk Road to Europe. Hundreds of years later Marco Polo came, and the opening up of China began.

The very thought that Caucasians were settled in a part of China thousands of years before Wu Di's early contacts with the west and Marco Polo's travels has enormous political ramifications. And that these Europeans should have been in restive Xinjiang hundreds of years before East Asians is explosive.

Explosive is right. Only those who are deeply entrenched in politically-correct archaeological dogmatism still deny that sophisticated Caucasian (even Nordic) Europeans were all over the fucking map while China and Egypt were still climbing out of their cribs.

Which is why I think that an advanced Caucasian civilization existed in the very ancient past and I'm thinking they could've easily populated Northern Africa, given what we know of their far-ranging colonial ventures.

— Doc Velocity

[TC]

Well in my last post I listed the predominate groups that we could confirm from relics and documented burial sites. The influence of Libyan, Nubian, Syrian, Shasu Bedouin,Hittite and middle Mediterranean. Some of these most assuredly allow for groups outside a black colored skin. Albeit its hard to say exactly what groups ( color) migrated from central Africa, as no real evidence exists to place any singular type as primary.

To be honest, the study was centered on climate, and really made no distinction to early settlements regarding race, just recognized influences. All we have is rather long skeletal remains that date to around 8,500 years. So I'm not really qualified to make any call if a Caucasoid existed in central Africa.

Doc do you have any valid links regarding this question. (Caucasoid

[Doc Velocity]

All we have is rather long skeletal remains that date to around 8,500 years. So I'm not really qualified to make any call if a Caucasoid existed in central Africa.

Doc do you have any valid links regarding this question. (Caucasoid

Well, here's a link discussing Eurasian Y chromosomes (found almost exclusively in Europe and Asia) surprisingly discovered in high concentration (95%) in Central and Western Africa, where such chromosomes are RARE, to put it mildly.

Eurasian Y Chromosomes found in High Concentration (95%) in Central & Western Africa (http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2010/05/15/eurasian-y-chromosome-r1b-in-africa/)

I don't know that Caucasoids per se existed in ancient Central (sub-Saharan) Africa (I doubt it), as the term Caucasoid alludes to the region of the Caucasus Mountains in Asia; but we do know that proto-Caucasoids migrated out of Africa in the area of Yemen — such that the earliest identifiable "Europeans" of around 35,000 years ago probably resembled Arabs, not lily-white Nords.

35,000-Year-Old Skull Fragments Reveal Face of Earliest Europeans (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1177123/The-European-Created-fragments-fossil-face-forbears-35-000-years-ago.html)

The true Caucasians of several thousand years later bore striking facial differences, due to living in colder climates, where the nasal and facial structures adapted differently than in warmer Central Africa. The Caucasian noses jutted outward from the bridge and brow, creating a larger "warming chamber" for inhaled air, right.

While this doesn't mean that hawk-nosed Caucasians originally migrated out of Africa, there were certainly return migrations, from Asia back into Africa, bringing Eurasian genetic markers back into Africa at some point in dim prehistory.

Remember, the racial terms Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid do not refer to skin pigmentation. The racial distinction is not based on color but upon certain pronounced facial characteristics on the skeletal level. We can identify race based upon nothing more than a denuded and bleached skull, if it comes to that.

For example, here's one of the most famous profiles in paleoanthropology...

http://forums.armageddononline.org/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=1276

That's Cherchen Man, one of the European mummies discovered in Western China. Note the configuration of brow, bridge, and jutting (hawk) nose, all quite recognizable as belonging to a Caucasian skull. The eye sockets are also quite deep compared to other races, although it's difficult to discern "deep-set eyes" when you're viewing mummies — they're all rather sunken.

Now, here are a few Egyptian mummies...

http://forums.armageddononline.org/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=1278

That one on the far right should be quite familiar... It's Ramses II. Note the brow, bridge and jutting (hawk) nose.

Now, for comparison, here's a really beautifully-preserved Nubian Negroid mummy...

http://forums.armageddononline.org/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=1277

Brow, bridge and nose configuration are starkly different from the hawkish Caucasian, you see?

Even without the preserved skin and hair of these mummies, we could make a racial identification, if needed.

— Doc Velocity

[beemeander]

Hi. This is a fascinating thread and I'm enjoying reading it. I agree with the poster who suggests the Sphinx was probably altered. The size and shape of the body is definitely out of proportion with the head. I'd have to conclude strongly that it is older than the dynasties and that the head was refashioned to honor some pharaoh, thus destroying the original composition. It may not have been a Sphinx when originally carved, rather, simply a lion or other beast. By changing the head to that of the pharaoh it was transformed into a being with a lion's body and a human head, much like the legend of the Sphinx. In (possibly) older statues and depictions, the Sphinx often has the head and breast of a woman, and often has wings as well. The enigma of the Sphinx in Egypt will be fascinating us for centuries, I think.

[beemeander]

I'm personally leaning to the theory that there have been many civilizations that have risen up, spread out, created and discovered, thrived, and eventually succumbed, either to attacks by more barbaric neighbors, by their own unbridled expansion, or by Mother Nature in her inimitable, inimical cycles of ice ages, mini ice ages and warming cycles.

Many will wonder, where's the evidence? That's a great question, but it seems that we're finding new evidence all the time that changes our concept of the past. Why can't it be that we just haven't found it yet, or what has been found hasn't been interpreted correctly yet? After all, time erodes all things. Troy was thought a myth only until Schliemann uncovered after Calvert deduced it's likely location.

[TC]

OK, I got back the dating from the sand I collected ( stole) from under several corner blocks of the great Pyramid. I waited over a year for these results, as there is a hell of Que. ( Luminescence dating) The results are within 5 to 10% range of error, but good for a spot date within 300 years.

As its completely illegal to leave Egypt with any so called artifact, we simply left the sand in several pockets of clothing and void of sunlight to get passed customs... anyway the preliminarily BCE dates for 3 separate samples is #1 at 6,400 years #2 at 5500 years and #3 at 6900 years. This is allowing for a 2 to 5 % contamination factor as well. The difference of years is relative to depth from a 5 mm zero point level.

The samples came from the same area ( depth at 6in compacted sediment sand)) so the margin for foreign particles is small. What was interesting is that high sodium counts exists in all 3 samples, which would suggest sea water origins, but its really hard to verify that point.

Important to note is the depth, as the age increases dramatically with every 3 inches, so the samples are the first 2 inches of compacted sediment using the first 5mm as a zero point to verify non sunlight contamination.

I have two more samples contained in film canisters that I had sent to another lab in the Netherlands, as their science in this field is cutting edge, but the waiting period is up to two years ( for private study) It will be interesting to see if any differences exits between the German lab work.

[Rockytrawn]

This thread sort of ended without enough comments on TCs Egyptian finding, we want more.

I have heard that bones of Neantherthals have been found in Isreal, along with more moderan man, so it would not be surprising to push back the beginings of human activity in the Middle East.

Red hair occurs not only as a genetic trait but it can also appear in darker haired people as a result of malnutrition and efforts to dye hair. I have heard folklore that indicates that blond or red haired people were selectively chosen by the Aztecs and Olmecs for sacrifice. Like Darwin's moths, a little selection of this type could effect the final hai color of the population.

What I am waiting for is more definative DNA data...

Ancient painting in South America do show both red and black skinned individuals - this may have been genetic or cosmetic. Ties to Asia are suggested by pictures showing people holding fans, and the presence of bows and arrows. There seems to be a sudden and rapid evolution of the bow replacing the older spear-throwing stick combination.