If God is ALL POWERFUL why did he NEED to sacrifice Jesus in order to be able to forgive us our sins, etc? [Archive]

digitalautumn

Mar 9th, 2011, 6:01 PM

Cartesiantheater

Mar 9th, 2011, 7:00 PM

You're assuming that jesus's death ended sin/made sin obsolete. This is Christian theology, but it is simply not realistic.

So reality aside....

It isn't God saving the world with a messiah. Jesus changed nothing. It's the "act" of sending a messiah that is noteworthy.
And it no doubt follows in the tradition of the Hebrew midrash.

So why the preference to send a messiah? Because God Almighty clearly does not have to do that to save mankind or establish his kingdom.

Why are Atheist, non-believers etc always wanting Christians to "prove" or "explain" things? and always questioning God? If you do not believe then so be it.. but why question something you have no faith in? For example I do not believe in reincarnation..its my choice but I don't sit and ponder questions to people who do believe in reincarnation and have them "prove" their belief to me..IMO its pointless cause neither side is willing to meet halfway.. im just saying..

Causing people to critically and carefully examine the things they believe to be true only ultimately improves the speed with which humanity grows.

It was guys like Martin Luther who critically examined the dogma of his day that helped push Christianity from barbaric religion similar to what Islam is now in many places in the world to a very secular and amiable one. Guys like Kepler who push humanity to be able to look at scripture in an abstract rather than fundamental way, and to change their religious perspective to a more abstract one (whereas prior to Kepler the Earth was the center of the universe with which God focused on, modern Christianity holds that God is a much bigger being who created much more- so much that it boggles the mind- and that planet earth as just one of millions of other planets God created has gone from ridiculously heretic to a reflection of the vastness of creation).

There are certainly GROWING PAINS associated with this type of thing, but every time we as a species challenge ourselves to think about our world in a new way, our collective intellectual capacity grows.

Who is to say that by doing this, atheists, non-believers, philosophers, whatever, aren't actually hastening the development of the eventual true Companion of the Ultimate Being?

debonnaire

Mar 10th, 2011, 2:52 AM

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.

You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?

Et cetera.

Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Good topic.
Firstly the Father did not force the Son to come . The Son came willingly to do His will.
Secondly , if Jesus would not have come and died , how much would that have been convincing ? How much mankind could know about God’s love and how far she is from Him ?
It is not about forgiveness only, it is also about redemption , if a man receives forgiveness , this is nice to have his past debts paid , but how can he be free from the power of sin & overcome his farther temptations if he is not been given (by the Holy Spirit of grace and truth) to be an overcomer ?
It has to be said that man looks at the surface, but God looks at the heart , at the depth of things , and He went at the very depth of things when willingly Jesus gave His life for the forgiveness and redemption and santification.
(There are many reasons why Jesus had to become flesh and endure all things and die , as by that he also set an example).
Finally just as the habit of sin has made sinners (who mostly by nature are not even convinced they are sinners), holiness is not obtained by a decree of God’s sovereign will. Jesus participated to flesh and blood so that those who believed in the message « Christ pierced » can identify with the depth of the problem and the depth and greatness of the solution. Acess to holiness and the righteous nature of Christ (the perfect man , the Holy one of God) is accessible , but man is engaged in what has been accomplished on his behalf by this another man. A shortcut (with man not engaged) would not make sense ...

Traveler

Mar 10th, 2011, 12:09 PM

Beatnik Bob

Mar 10th, 2011, 6:06 PM

So why the preference to send a messiah?
The concept of a messiah started with the "ages."

For each age (2100/2200 years) there is a different messiah whose actions define the age. Moses, was one. Interestingly, Moses lived in the age of Ares...while Jesus ushered in "Pisces" (and jesus is often symbolized by a "fish," while Moses's age is known for the shofar--ram's horn).
Going by this trend, the new age does not begin until the next messiah comes to usher it in. The messiah is intrinsically intertwined with time, and Godliness, not just randomly coming to get things done. The Earth and universe go through various forms of evolution (from stars forming to continents shifting), these evolutions require time--why would the evolution of human spirituality be the exception?
It's about human experience, not God fixing things.

Just look at the way the human body is set up. Is it designed to bypass space and time and "get things done" or is it designed to have experience? The very fact that time and space exist suggest that experience is pretty important.

Because God Almighty clearly does not have to do that to save mankind or establish his kingdom.
What's more important, the destination or the journey? If the destination was of primary importance, why does experience exist?

Also, in what way does humanity need to be saved? Does eliminating sin (theoretically) eliminate the act of sinning or eliminate the existence of bad?
How would this "saving" process occur? Humans would no longer be inclined to hurt eachother? Or they would be incapable?

Anyway, interesting thread. :2thumbs:

johnBeeone

Mar 10th, 2011, 7:48 PM

Because for God so love the World etc...^_^ but don't forget god cannot lie.....

Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides

(1Cor 14:3 )
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their

strengthening,
encouragement, and
consolation.

Actually Angels are waiting too ^_^

(1Pet 1:12 )
They were shown that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things now announced to you through those who proclaimed the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven –

things angels long to catch a glimpse of.

It's just only thousand Years and we have many Authenticated Facts about it...that the Bible is True and what it is says...but since evil existed too many people will lure us not to rely on the Bible and other pastors does not want us to read the Bible...many churches do not explain the real truth on what it is written on the BIBLE...

(1Cor 14:31 [KJV])
For G1063 ye may G1410 all G3956 prophesy G4395 one by one G2596 G1520, that G2443 all G3956 may learn G3129, and G2532 all G3956 may be comforted G3870.

(1Cor 14:32 [KJV])
And G2532 the spirits G4151 of the prophets G4396 are subject G5293 to the prophets G4396.

(1Cor 14:33 [KJV])
For G1063 God G2316 is G2076 not G3756 the author of confusion G181, but G235 of peace G1515, as G5613 in G1722 all G3956 churches G1577 of the saints G40.

jeffweeder

Mar 10th, 2011, 10:49 PM

You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World.

Hello CT
God doesnt play games or snap his fingers....theres a right way to do something and a wrong way.
God is just and righteous and loyal to himself, .....and he himself came to the conclusion that the penalty for sin was death.
Man put himself in that position ( that he would die) and God was compelled to find a legitimate way of breaking the spell....because he loved us.

The only way death could be conquered was if God found someone sinless to enter death and therefore conquer it. Thats a hard task as everyone born of a Man and a Woman suffers from the virus that causes the death.

God knew he would have to do it himself, and he did... So God was true and Just to what he had declared to the extent that his own blood was shed.

Cartesiantheater

Mar 10th, 2011, 11:00 PM

Good answers, people. So, synthesizing the arguments, most of you believe it has to do with the personality of God himself, then. From Traveler, God is very much into Law and Order, and set the course of the universe to enable it to have Laws, then deceit, treachery and breaking of law, and then sacrifice to restore the Law. From Bob, God goes a step further and does all of this (or something similar) BECAUSE it is an epic journey itself, that is, the beauty of conflict and triumph. From Jeff, it is again something similar. From John, <(^,^)>.

I agree in part. If I were God, I'd want some sort of epic struggle between good and evil to occur, and for the side of Right to succeed only after turmoil and sacrifice. After all, the alternative is boring and meaningless and lacks that beauty.

Here's a thought: what if the struggle and such isn't merely for God's own sake, but is rather a GIFT to his creation?

After all, a parent cannot get much out of Christmas (or <insert Winter Holiday>). It is empty and meaningless in many ways, except one: the parent can give the meaningful experience and joy to his children, and watch from a far and take joy in the child's own joy.

So in God's case. He is all powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. His existence is BORING and useless, at least for himself. However, if he gave such an epic struggle to someone else, not only could the creature enjoy a life of meaning and danger and success and triumph, but He could take joy in watching his creation overcome such struggle.

Of course, the greatest triumph comes with the greatest risk and pain. Hence pain, suffering, evil and Hell.

Cruel? Sure. But the alternative is also cruel.

I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.

Taking some from that, it is the struggle and triumph itself that gives the very meaning of our lives (or according to this view, anyway). Thus the Fall of Man, and what ensued as a result, is itself God's greatest gift to Creation.

Of course, I could just undo everything I said by pointing out that an All Powerful God can have his cake and eat it too. But perhaps a personality quirk of God prevented him from doing it that way (or perhaps he already has in some alternative dimension ==> angels?).

johnBeeone

Mar 11th, 2011, 2:48 AM

If you were god? Lucifer and his cohorts is working hard to lure many people as he can that you will punish them to eternal sufferings...JOB 20:5

We weak people have learn to be humble... -_-

Cartesiantheater

Mar 11th, 2011, 2:52 AM

If you were god? Lucifer and his cohorts is working hard to lure many people as he can that you will punish them to eternal sufferings...JOB 20:5

We weak people have learn to be humble... -_-

You misunderstand. The phrase was used to indicate that it makes some sense that God would do what he did according to the Bible, according to this context.

johnBeeone

Mar 11th, 2011, 3:02 AM

I stand Corrected Thank you CT...^_^ put my words on the recycle bin if is not encouraging does not have learning...

calliope

Mar 11th, 2011, 3:12 AM

I haven't seen a thread on this, so thought I'd see what the Christians say about it.

You believe God is all powerful. That means he can do ANYTHING. So why was he forced to sacrifice Jesus in order to redeem mankind? If he can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers. Or by sacrificing a goat. Or by beating Super Mario World. Whatever he wanted.

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?

Et cetera.

Give me a good theological explanation for all this that does not ignore the fact that an all powerful god by definition is not REQUIRED to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. Thanks.

Well, really we all are souls that are on a "mission" so to speak. It's like a learning mission. Humans really would be amazed to learn that the opportunity for souls, existing in the ethers, to have the chance to experience earth, and a physical body, is so coveted.....and considered a most brilliant privilege. ::): (That's really what a lot of the bible is actually about.)

We are conditioned to think otherwise. That's why Jesus came. The whole purpose of our being here revolves around free will. It's the only reason we subject ourselves to such suffering.

It really isn't necessary, once we learn the concept of karma....not a simplistic equation of an eye for an eye, but a very subtle way of learning about the spiritual nature of our souls. It's actually much more complex and sophisticated a concept than that of tit-for-tat. Because once you master its inner workings, you rise above all that cause and effect stuff.

That's what's Jesus was here to teach us about. His teachings overflow with this wisdom. He didn't have to die, but he submitted to death to illustrate the supreme effects of free will -- the will of those who executed him.

And thus, he did arise from the dead as well. That was an entirely different teaching in and of itself. It was very esoteric.

But that's the story of Jesus, and his raison d'être.

Our free will is God's gift to us. To then blame him for the suffering that we inflict on ourselves and others, is to negate his purpose in planting us here altogether. But he did send his favorite, Jesus, to attempt to help us navigate the process.

Others too have learned what he taught. Some have stayed around to help the rest of us understand. They are referred to as bodhisattvas (divine beings worthy of nirvana who remains on the human plane to help men [people] to salvation.)

johnBeeone

Mar 11th, 2011, 3:19 AM

I have not lost my mind, CT, but am speaking true and rational words. you know about these things, and I am speaking freely about the Real Jesus, because I cannot believe that any of these things has escaped your notice,

Lillith

Mar 11th, 2011, 8:16 PM

Good topic.
[QUOTE]Firstly the Father did not force the Son to come . The Son came willingly to do His will.

You send your Son to die, and he did your Will, would you love him more.
Or was the greater message, DO NOT BE AFRAID OF " DEATH". Yet, men kill to live. Rather ironic. Even the most devoted Christians stock weapons and march to war.

Secondly , if Jesus would not have come and died , how much would that have been convincing ?

Not very convincing at all. But as he did send his son to die, you can see exactly HOW convincing it has been. The very thought of any "father" sending his son to die in his stead? is rather in and of itself as horrifying as it is convincing, isn't it. A cruxification, no less. Were the entire Bible to be written today, and people so indoctrinated to beleive, well, woe would be the person stupid enough not to fear such a "parent" figure- rational society would consider them to be one screw short of psychopath. The Mayan mentality lives.

How much mankind could know about God’s love and how far she is from Him

Based upon "sacrifice" of ones child? Yea, its the ultimate. Nations do this routinely. Peoples sons and daughters are sent to die, in war as a matter of routine and upon their death, get the consolation prize. A letter from the "president" thanking them for their "sacrifice, a nice medal and memorial. But, it has come too be expected and accepted is it not? After all, God did it why shouldn't some insigficant human being follow his example of the sacrifice. These are gods ways as well.

Now, THATS conditioning.

(There are many reasons why Jesus had to become flesh and endure all things and die , as by that he also set an example).

certainly did.

Lillith

Mar 11th, 2011, 8:21 PM

[QUOTE=calliope;415593] But he did send his favorite, Jesus, to attempt to help us navigate the process.
Did he have other sons, less favorite? Or just the one begotton one. Who really knows, maybe he did/does have other sons and they just flat out refused to be sacraficed! Maybe they were/ are defiant, disobedient lil rogues and raskals like their daddy. :)

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

Goldmoon

Mar 14th, 2011, 9:50 AM

Because for God so love the World etc...^_^ but don't forget god cannot lie.....

Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides

I had forgotten about this verse. Amazing, isn't it? Everyone should read this. Thanks for posting it. Its a sobering word. :2thumbs:

[QUOTE]
As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

Really forgiving, if you ask me, that He would save brutal sinners like us.

John 3:17

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Cartesiantheater

Mar 14th, 2011, 1:12 PM

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

I don't see anywhere where I was making that argument.

Lillith

Mar 14th, 2011, 3:49 PM

I don't see anywhere where I was making that argument.

OK. Mea Culpa. Then I misunderstood your "argument". Then again, I'm not even sure you were presenting your thoughts for the purpose of an "argument"

But when you wrote;

So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus

and

Good answers, people. So, synthesizing the arguments, most of you believe it has to do with the personality of God himself, then.

and

So in God's case. He is all powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. His existence is BORING and useless, at least for himself. However, if he gave such an epic struggle to someone else, not only could the creature enjoy a life of meaning and danger and success and triumph, but He could take joy in watching his creation overcome such struggle

God, could do all that you outlined. God, has choices. Perhaps, it's just me but when one make inferences as you did utilizing the words RAGE and personality, as it relates to holiness I associate such traits with being tempermental, impatience with disobedience (all that smiting, smoting and vengence throughout the Bible for those who disobey, etc), as "perasonality" traits humans easily identify with as they relate to themselves.

Such behavior for humans is also called EMPATHY, PROJECTION and TRANSFERENCE traits of a "personality"

Anarch

Mar 14th, 2011, 3:56 PM

Cartesiantheater

Mar 14th, 2011, 4:45 PM

OK. Mea Culpa. Then I misunderstood your "argument". Then again, I'm not even sure you were presenting your thoughts for the purpose of an "argument"

But when you wrote;

and

and

God, could do all that you outlined. God, has choices. Perhaps, it's just me but when one make inferences as you did utilizing the words RAGE and personality, as it relates to holiness I associate such traits with being tempermental, impatience with disobedience (all that smiting, smoting and vengence throughout the Bible for those who disobey, etc), as "perasonality" traits humans easily identify with as they relate to themselves.

Such behavior for humans is also called EMPATHY, PROJECTION and TRANSFERENCE traits of a "personality"

Yes, because you must not be thinking very hard when you read my post.

The point is to find some LOGICAL connection through it all that is LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with the Christian doctrine of God being all loving, etc.

The key being that it WASN'T merely petty anger, but rather a need to bring about life that has MEANING and BEAUTY. The use of pain and suffering in this light is meant as a means to bring about a struggle worthy of overcoming. I was asking the QUESTION to see if we could reason our way through it.

calliope

Mar 14th, 2011, 7:07 PM

Did he have other sons, less favorite? Or just the one begotton one. Who really knows, maybe he did/does have other sons and they just flat out refused to be sacraficed! Maybe they were/ are defiant, disobedient lil rogues and raskals like their daddy. :)

As Cart points out, the Daddy appears to be rather tempermental, easily agitated, unforgiving when not obeyed and pleased.

I think that if you choose to see it from human-motive angles, it does indeed appeared confusing.

Jesus though, is a very advanced spirit, well beyond that of even a bodhisattva. He did of course come of his own accord. His arrival here, to live and teach among us, a fully functional human, was itself a sacrifice.

It was a sacrifice, in that, in human form, in this dimension, in a physical body, you have the ever present danger of falling from a state of grace. That's the nature of being human. There is physicality, pleasure, pain, emotions -- the full range of the human experience.

Apparently, Jesus himself had to spend months alone, fasting and praying in the desert, just to maintain his integrity. It could not have been easy!

The knowledge that humankind was depraved enough to cause his crucifixion, also was understood, as that was precisely the necessary reason for his tenure among us. It was precisely to explain and teach, that we all are God's children -- he loves us all, equally as much as he loves Jesus.

It's not that Jesus was his only favorite, per se....it's simply that Jesus was at such an advanced level to be sharing God's life personally. God wants us all to achieve that level.

With that knowledge, Jesus came here knowing the dangers that becoming fully "human" would present. Given the nature of humanity at the time, he knew that he would quite possibly have to undergo the torture and sacrifice that would be inevitable, of crucifixion. Because his message was so necessary, for the salvation of humanity, at that crucial moment. He also knew how dangerous that would be to the PTB, at the time.

That's why it was a sacrifice -- Jesus was sacrificed because God loves all his children, even the ones struggling with life on earth -- enough to send them a loved one whose teachings and presence would help them, even if it was dangerous for him, in human terms. It all returns to the notion of free will.

Jesus knew that because of free will, he would most probably be crucified. But his mission was that humanity would learn his message, and be redeemed, of their own free will, which is what the lesson on earth is all about.

Suffering on the cross was the penultimate moment of Jesus's spirit -- he refused to "fall" into the lower density vibration of hate and revenge, in the midst of his agony. While the people mocked and spat at him, in extreme pain and discomfort -- even he could not find the strength to rise above, and yet, he displayed the ultimate power that we all have in such moments of crisis -- he called upon God for strength and forgiveness, when he said, "Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

Ultimately, Jesus did overcome the "sacrifice" that he represented, in order to bring to us his message and teaching of raising our spirits toward God. He "arose" from the dead -- he overcame his human nature and ascended back to his God nature.

Doc Velocity

Mar 14th, 2011, 7:40 PM

If he [God] can do ANYTHING, then that means he could have redeemed mankind just by snapping his fingers... So why the need for brutal murder? Is it just to satisfy his rage at our folly? Then why was he forced to take that rage out on his own son? Or, him being all powerful, why didn't he just cause his rage to magically disappear? Same thing with "holiness" arguments. Why didn't he just use his all powerful might to simply erase unholiness without having to kill his son? Why the NEED to kill Jesus?

The answer is simple. We humans CANNOT COMPREHEND the mind of God. Says so in the Bible. See, you want to back God into a corner of Human logic.

But God isn't Human. God doesn't obey our tiny human logical processes. Our logic only exists here on Earth, between our ears. Nowhere else does human logic exist. The entire REST of the Universe could, very correctly, be said to run on ANTI-LOGIC.

Not just illogic...but ANTI-LOGIC.

Says in the Bible, The thoughts of God are NOT the thoughts of Man; the WAYS of God are NOT the ways of Man.

I mean, who are WE to question the fucking Creator?

Who SAYS that RAGE is BAD? Who SAYS that a God MUST behave according to OUR logic?

God probably doesn't even know if we still exist at this point. Because the one time he came down here, we tortured and murdered the motherfucker.

That's what we DO. That's OUR THING.

— Doc Velocity

Beatnik Bob

Mar 14th, 2011, 9:35 PM

Lillith

Mar 15th, 2011, 8:17 AM

Because God and humans both have the knowledge of good and bad.

And adam was made in God's image, so humanity can't be that different.

Well, that was both poigant and succinct. Also, there are the subconcsious emotional dynamics involved that could very well be relative to ones perception of God. Personally, I have no fear of God whatsoever because the god I relate to cannot be one of rage, smoting, vengence, etc as depicted in the Bible. With what I may have done to displease I will take such matters up face to face when I get to my destination. ::):

It seems to me though, (based upon knowlege of persons familial background) that ones perception of God is directly related to the identification with their mortal parental experiences. The need for love and approval, whether it was given or witheld is associative and somehow, directly related. Where a parent may have failed their child miserably, (lack of rules, guidance, promised comfort, overly permissive and indifferent, psychological/physical abuse - few parents are perfect) the heavenly Father who made the ultimate sacarifice makes for an excellent custodial subsitution. One never grows up really, two child hoods ensue.

Lillith

Mar 15th, 2011, 8:48 AM

I think that if you choose to see it from human-motive angles, it does indeed appeared confusing.

Jesus though, is a very advanced spirit, well beyond that of even a bodhisattva. He did of course come of his own accord. His arrival here, to live and teach among us, a fully functional human, was itself a sacrifice.

It was a sacrifice, in that, in human form, in this dimension, in a physical body, you have the ever present danger of falling from a state of grace. That's the nature of being human. There is physicality, pleasure, pain, emotions -- the full range of the human experience.

Apparently, Jesus himself had to spend months alone, fasting and praying in the desert, just to maintain his integrity. It could not have been easy!

The knowledge that humankind was depraved enough to cause his crucifixion, also was understood, as that was precisely the necessary reason for his tenure among us. It was precisely to explain and teach, that we all are God's children -- he loves us all, equally as much as he loves Jesus.

Ultimately, Jesus did overcome the "sacrifice" that he represented, in order to bring to us his message and teaching of raising our spirits toward God. He "arose" from the dead -- he overcame his human nature and ascended back to his God nature.

~ Calliiope

While it is true that children are supposed to be taught by earthly guardians assigned to them the meaning of love via sacrifice (and many parents would take the bullet for their children in a hearbeat) and the thought of outliving their children is more than they can bear, the idea of offering up the "sacrifice" is draconian, a concept that has led a very confused humanity in endless circles. The crucixification did not eradicate sin.

Was depraved? Large segments of humanity are still very much depraved. The journey to God is a very individualized, personalized trek. Different Avatars have appeared, messages of various kinds were given in many books and teachings, people should have the right to choose, without repercussion or being subject to indoctrination, shame, or guilt which messages rings true for them. So, what do we have as a legacy? God Wars abound do they not - Christian vs Islam? It's taken almost 2,000 years for the Christians and Jews to reach even a semblence of reconcilliation regarding who killed the Christ. And some of ya'll are in the 20th Century, still arguing and debating about whether Job was a Jew or not? What does it really matter?

The result is trained , non thinking parrots who pull out this or that reference book as the one true guide book / road map to God - the mantra you are either with us or against us. They say, God said...........

Cartesiantheater

Mar 15th, 2011, 8:55 AM

The answer is simple. We humans CANNOT COMPREHEND the mind of God. Says so in the Bible. See, you want to back God into a corner of Human logic.

But God isn't Human. God doesn't obey our tiny human logical processes. Our logic only exists here on Earth, between our ears. Nowhere else does human logic exist. The entire REST of the Universe could, very correctly, be said to run on ANTI-LOGIC.

Not just illogic...but ANTI-LOGIC.

Okay, please explain the difference between illogical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illogical) and "anti-logical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti-logical)." I can't seem to find a definition in the dictionary.

Also, there is a difference between something being incomprehensible and something being illogical (or anti-logical?). Illogic implies true contradictions. Logic, at its base level, only implies that there are no such thing as true contradictions (i.e. "the dog is not white" and "the dog is white" both being true simultaneously for a particular and singular dog in a particular space-time coordinate).

Says in the Bible, The thoughts of God are NOT the thoughts of Man; the WAYS of God are NOT the ways of Man.

I mean, who are WE to question the fucking Creator?

Why else would he give us an inquiring mind if not to inquire?

But then, you would say, God has no logical reasons for his actions. But if that is true, why should he care if we do question him? Or more precisely, why should we care one way or the other about the issue if God and his motivations are beyond the scope of where the question of whether or not we should question him lies.

Also, just saying, but questioning doctrine handed down by man, and written works of which there is no proof that they came from God, is not necessarily questioning the Creator. For all we know, this thread is doing nothing but question a cheap human rendition of the Creator at best.

Who SAYS that RAGE is BAD?

My personal view is it depends on the context of the situation, but most people believe genocide just because you're pissed off is immoral.

Who SAYS that a God MUST behave according to OUR logic?

There is only one kind of logic. Whether human beings completely understand logic is another question, but there is only one logic. All "logic" is is what automatically follows from the assumption that α does not equal β if α = β is false.

God probably doesn't even know if we still exist at this point.

This would make sense for a God that does not dwell within the realm of logic. The question of our existence would hold no meaning in the first place.

Also, whether or not we choose to question him would not matter if he didn't know whether or not we existed.

Because the one time he came down here, we tortured and murdered the motherfucker.

That's what we DO. That's OUR THING.

— Doc Velocity

Well, according to dogma handed down by men and by written works that no living human being ever saw written that are claimed to be divinely inspired. But then, if you believe the scriptures, He came here for the exact purpose to die at our hands... but then, you don't believe the entire Bible so it's pointless to go there.

Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 9:09 AM

Doc you are living proof that even a blind squirrel can occasionally find the acorn.

The answer is simple. We humans CANNOT COMPREHEND the mind of God. Says so in the Bible. See, you want to back God into a corner of Human logic.

But God isn't Human. God doesn't obey our tiny human logical processes. Our logic only exists here on Earth, between our ears. Nowhere else does human logic exist. The entire REST of the Universe could, very correctly, be said to run on ANTI-LOGIC.

Not just illogic...but ANTI-LOGIC.

Says in the Bible, The thoughts of God are NOT the thoughts of Man; the WAYS of God are NOT the ways of Man.

I mean, who are WE to question the fucking Creator?

Who SAYS that RAGE is BAD? Who SAYS that a God MUST behave according to OUR logic?

God probably doesn't even know if we still exist at this point. Because the one time he came down here, we tortured and murdered the motherfucker.

That's what we DO. That's OUR THING.

— Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 9:53 AM

For what little I know... if God is the alpha and omega, and has already seen the end. Then it has to be played out as such, the only way that redemption can work. Any intervention ( by an all powerful God) would compromise the law of choice, which is the essence of redemption. ( If that makes any sense)

I guess some things are written in stone, even for God.

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 11:55 AM

And adam was made in God's image, so humanity can't be that different.

How do you arrive at THAT disjointed conclusion? I can paint a portrait of you that looks EXACTLY like you, I will have created something in your image.... Does that mean the IMAGE is capable of higher reasoning, has knowledge of good and evil?

No. Creating something in your image is just that — a static representation of your external appearance. It has NOTHING to do with your actual BEING.

So, when God created Man in his image, he was merely creating a DOLL that resembled God... It had NOTHING to do with imbuing Mankind with godlike qualities.

I mean, Man didn't even have Knowledge of Good and Evil when God created him... Supposedly, Mankind had to partake of the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge," which was EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN by God.

No, God never intended Mankind to be LIKE HIM. And, in fact, Mankind is NOT like God. We can't even comprehend God's motivations, as is amply evidenced in the OP of this very thread.

— Doc Velocity

DontBeAfraid

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:00 PM

God is too busy aborting babies to care about logic...

Lillith

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:33 PM

How do you arrive at THAT disjointed conclusion? I can paint a portrait of you that looks EXACTLY like you, I will have created something in your image.... Does that mean the IMAGE is capable of higher reasoning, has knowledge of good and evil?

No. Creating something in your image is just that — a static representation of your external appearance. It has NOTHING to do with your actual BEING.

So, when God created Man in his image, he was merely creating a DOLL that resembled God... It had NOTHING to do with imbuing Mankind with godlike qualities.

I mean, Man didn't even have Knowledge of Good and Evil when God created him... Supposedly, Mankind had to partake of the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge," which was EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN by God.

No, God never intended Mankind to be LIKE HIM. And, in fact, Mankind is NOT like God. We can't even comprehend God's motivations, as is amply evidenced in the OP of this very thread.

— Doc Velocity

Question. How did / do YOU ascertain all the above and come to your conclusion? A (any) belief system is a thing usually derived from either (direct knowlege) experience/observation; learnings/teachings; logical deduction/reason; heresay, (blind faith) ; socio/environmental conditioning; and handed down religion

Which?

If God as you claim created a static representation of him, a doll - WHY? To what purpose. To remain naked and dumb? I see a conflit with your statments. The all knowing God, obviously would have KNOWN, Adam would fall into so called "sin". Sin must therefore be synomous with knowledge. The greater the knowlege, the greater the sinner? With the original Adam/Eve story, would mankind (had their been no disobedience ) have ever been destined to understand the workings of relativity, natural science, physics, medicine? Or were we initially designed by god to be just dumb, static images, creatures for his pleasure, entertainment/enjoyment.

Once scenario God has absolute control over his creation - they are obedient, compliant and well,..dumb and w/o knowledge.
The latter scneario, God does not have control over his creation, which effectively, compromises God being omnipotent.

So he creates a static representation, forbids any attainment of knowledge, then sets Adam up to see what will happen when he knew full well, he would sin. Then, sends his only Son as a sacrifice to commence the redemption?

From where does your objectivity and "knowledge" of god true intentions come? Or is it because we are discussing "God" the supranatural and mysterious being that all objectivity, logic and reason is summarily discarded.

calliope

Mar 15th, 2011, 1:47 PM

~ Calliiope

While it is true that children are supposed to be taught by earthly guardians assigned to them the meaning of love via sacrifice (and many parents would take the bullet for their children in a hearbeat) and the thought of outliving their children is more than they can bear, the idea of offering up the "sacrifice" is draconian, a concept that has led a very confused humanity in endless circles. The crucixification did not eradicate sin.

I quite agree. Perhaps I did not explain well enough. Sorry about my lack of comprehensive articulation.

Was depraved? Large segments of humanity are still very much depraved.

Overall, in some instances, the world has become a more gentle place. Perhaps in small increments.

The journey to God is a very individualized, personalized trek. Different Avatars have appeared, messages of various kinds were given in many books and teachings, people should have the right to choose, without repercussion or being subject to indoctrination, shame, or guilt which messages rings true for them.

It seems to me that they do at this time, much more than they had in previous eras. The reason, it would seem, that Jesus's message was so dangerous that the reigning authority said his death was necessary (God never said that.)

So, what do we have as a legacy? God Wars abound do they not - Christian vs Islam? It's taken almost 2,000 years for the Christians and Jews to reach even a semblence of reconcilliation regarding who killed the Christ. And some of ya'll are in the 20th Century, still arguing and debating about whether Job was a Jew or not? What does it really matter?

Because politics always usurps "religion" and uses it to gain temporal ends. Jesus's message showed a different "way." Just because humankind has corrupted his message in so many ways, does not render the message invalid. It still works. Regardless of how hard peeps try to maim its meaning out if existence.

The result is trained , non thinking parrots who pull out this or that reference book as the one true guide book / road map to God - the mantra you are either with us or against us. They say, God said...........

It's a good distraction, from what's important, eh?

It is of course, deliberate. :noevl:

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 2:27 PM

those with super powers like Infinite Power Of Eden Himself obligatory have opponents that counter match those super powers. you said it your self no pain no gain hence no powers to overcome. like USA -- the super power among nations that has Arabs, China, Russia, Cuba and everybody against them. the nature of gravity sort of speaking, is a form of peoples jealousy that doesn't let the individuals to slip away from the average.

The Infinite Power of Eden manifests only in the spiritual domain. the counter super power of his opponent the Satan A manifests in the material domain. their weakness thereof, are mutual: the spirit needs material wealth to serve him as stable container and matter needs spirit to fully fill it as contents. God is the master of anarchy and light. the Satan A is the master of darkness and shadows. God gives form (the sperm) to the material provided by Satan A (the egg cell). after the rain comes the sun and after the sun comes rain again -- summer via spring overcomes the winter after autumn and winter via autumn overcomes summer after spring. so God and Satan A perpetually struggle to conquer the center of the komAdot and the center is Eden (1) so they can both have it only one at the time. God is the life that is dead and Satan A is the death that is alive. the sacrifice of Jesus (God) trough sex until pregnancy with Maria Mageddonella (Satan A) is a must because God wants the death of Satan A even if the price for it is his own life. they do it out of love, you know my saying? and where is the love there is the rape.

just one more question after all this preaching: WHAT IS THE WORTH OF MY INFINITE SPIRITUAL POWER OF EDEN IF I AM LOCKED IN A LUNATICS ASYLUM (my eternal material container my cage)? you see although i am infinite in my spiritual powers, your human infinite inabilities to rightfully judge makes you still perfect match for those super powers of mine.

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 2:46 PM

If God as you claim created a static representation of him, a doll - WHY? To what purpose. To remain naked and dumb? I see a conflit with your statments.

I have direct knowledge.

Again, you're going back to the faulty premise of this thread... To EXPLAIN, in LOGICAL TERMS, the ACTIONS of GOD.

It can't be done, because God is neither Human nor logical, as we Humans understand Logic.

Why do children take dolls and imbue them with life and personality? For their amusement?

Why can't God amuse himself with dolls, as well? Because it doesn't fit YOUR definition of God? If you think you are somehow superior to God because He isn't understandable in terms of mere Human logic, then you have a GREAT DEAL to learn about God.

— Doc Velocity

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 3:50 PM

How do you arrive at THAT disjointed conclusion?
Genesis 1:27.

I can paint a portrait of you that looks EXACTLY like you, I will have created something in your image.... Does that mean the IMAGE is capable of higher reasoning, has knowledge of good and evil?
Ah, I see. I should have used more explanation.
Sometimes these little things slip my mind.

In answer to your statement, "betzelem" doesn't mean physical image. It means like replica, but of another sort. Tzal is a ghost. It is saying the ghost or the spirit of man was made in the image of God. Tzal is not a body.
The writers of Genesis never believed God had a physical image. The image of a man is ephemeral and it is just human body. Besides, man didn't have a body yet, in Genesis 1:27 man is made without a body.
I repeat, the ancients never believed God looked like you or me. When "betzaelmov" is used even, it is not talking about a physical casement.

Man is not made until Genesis 2:7.

This is extremely important, and so many people either do not know this, or they have never thought about it in their lives, or they simply only read English.

But in Genesis 2:7 it says "And the lord FORMED MAN from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breach of life; and man became a living soul."

Consider that for a couple seconds.

CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER:
-God makes a spirit replica of his being in male and in female. "Betzaelem Elohim bara otov zachar unekivah bara otam."

-God rested after creation Genesis 2:3

-God saw that there were no plants or life on Earth, and "There was NOT a man to till the ground." Pause and consider. Genesis 2:4-5

-A mist rose from the Earth and watered it Genesis 2:6

-God then FORMED the body of ha'Adam and put in it his breath and a soul. Genesis 2:7

I am still sometimes surprised that this passage is never read, or if it is read by people who purport to believe in it, it is skimmed over at least. It definitively says that God made the souls of MALE and FEMALE after his own. The passage is very specific.

Then God notices there are no men anywhere to till the ground. Why is this? It is because God has not made the bodies of men yet. The males and females exist after the likeness of the elohim, but they do not exist in the physical universe.
The universe is done and in completion, but God notices it is lacking life. Thus after he rests his creation isn't over. He rests and then starts forming the physical body--of a MAN no less. Adam is a man. "Dam" meaning "blood."

But yet we know God made man and woman prior to ever forming a physical man from the dirt. "Zachar" and "unakivah" here being terms of the male and female spirits that God made. Bodies do not yet exist for them. Adam's body is not made, and Chavah has not been taken out of the man.

("Ha'adam" also means "mankind." Genesis says "God created ha'adam; male and female. Torah study teaches us that although the physical "adam" that would come later was certainly anatomically male, his soul was actually made male and female. This is why he is called "adam kadmon." Hebrew, in a way, is similar to many Romance languages, in that gender agreement goes to the male. If a male and female both have something it is "his" not "her" or "his and her." This is why God is called "he" even though he does not have or require male anatomy. Because masculinity in Hebrew takes precedence over feminine. As in Spanish where "ella" and "el" become "ellos" instead of "ellas." "Ellas" is limited to a group of only females. If there is a single male in the group though, the gender agreement goes to "ellos." I'm providing this background information because English doesn't use gender agreements, thus there is some confusion for anyone reading an English Bible. I don't know of the Latin Bible, though I know the definition of "elohim" is subtly lost in that as well. In English, both males and females have the same endings unless they are being referred to directly. "They're" refers to males or females).
For a visual reference, consider the star of David: Masculine energy rises and feminine energy descends. "Masculine articles" thus becomes synonymous with action. While feminine ones are more indicative of life. If you know a Romance language or Arabic, I don't even have to describe this concept to you.

Thus it states quite clearly that Adam was made male and female.

God made the souls of man as apart of the Elohim. Here we see that these souls exist, but God has not yet placed them into a physical body/the physical world. Elohim, at this time, are all in existence on some other level. NOT physical.

No. Creating something in your image is just that — a static representation of your external appearance. It has NOTHING to do with your actual BEING.
So hopefully that answered your inquiry.
I realize there is a ton of confusion in any discussion of Anglo-jewish literature.
I am currently in a debate of my own in another thread on this forum, so the fact of how unknown much of the Torah can be is not a surprise.

So, when God created Man in his image, he was merely creating a DOLL that resembled God... It had NOTHING to do with imbuing Mankind with godlike qualities.
Tzal is not a doll.

No, God never intended Mankind to be LIKE HIM.
That isn't quite supported by scripture.

And, in fact, Mankind is NOT like God.
If man was so unlike God, we would still live in gan-eden, even after eating the fruit.
Do you remember God's reasoning for expelling man from eden?
It's no secret.

I have direct knowledge.
Not quite.
But I respect your position.

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 4:00 PM

If man was so unlike God, we would still live in gan-eden, even after eating the fruit.
Do you remember God's reasoning for expelling man from eden?
It's no secret.

The difference in our opinions here is that you are relying on your modern interpretation of three or four thousand-year-old from Genesis, which is NOT a linear "book," per se, but is a compilation of oral traditions and folklore that are NOT altogether in agreement with one another (as our atheist friends love to point out).

My opinion is drawn from Divine Discernment, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I will occasionally refer to ancient scripture; but ancient scripture has NEVER resolved the Mankind's questions about ancient scripture.

— Doc Velocity

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 4:43 PM

The difference in our opinions here is that you are relying on your modern interpretation
Yeah, that's not true at all. Am not going to even pretend it is.

My interpretation comes from Torah which predates christianity by over a thousand years. My interpretation is the interpretation that predates the birth of jesus by over a millennium.

This is far from New Age. I don't quite understand the Christian definition of "New Age." They use "New Age" as an adjective for anything that disagrees with a 2000 year old understanding. The fact that most Christians do not know that God made tzalem in his image before he made a physical form isn't particularly indicative of a "correct interpretation."

of three or four thousand-year-old from Genesis, which is NOT a linear "book," per se
Actually, when it comes to the creation story, it is displayed QUITE linearly. As in, linear to the point of extreme exactness.

It is very specific, creation lasts 7 days. It says what happened each day. And on the seventh day it says God rested. Then it says God moves over his creation to look at it and he saw there were no plants and no men. The creation was barren.
Then a mist rose from the ground that watered the ground. Then God took from the watered Earth dirt that he used to form the physical image of man, and he breathed life into it.

But how convenient of you to say it isn't chronological only when it contradicts your position. :vbroll:

but is a compilation of oral traditions and folklore that are NOT altogether in agreement with one another (as our atheist friends love to point out).
Yes, this is true. But if you are going to base your beliefs ON the Torah, you must use what you have.
What we have is a creation story that is quite specific. Also, Hebrews did an extremely good job of preserving it through the millennium. Hebrews/jews were pretty intent on making sure their poems survived. I realize much of it is poetry, and they knew it was poetry too, but it doesn't change how important it was to their lives. It was fundamental because it was poetry and taught one about life.

"Torah" means teaching. As you astutely pointed out, teachings were originally oral, correct. And yes, they came from what is termed "mishnah." But this doesn't change the creation story as it is written. Bereshit has had little alterations. And something as fundamental as the order was never compromised.
"Seder" which means "order" is extremely important and integral to Hebrew life and culture. Something as fundamental as God making tzal in the image of elohim and then forming the human body from dust is not arbitrary OR a mistake.
The Torah is surprisingly well preserved. This came from a fair amount of isolation.
To this very day, there are jews living in isolated mountains in the Middle east who speak Persian, and write with Hebrew characters. They believe the same way as jews who moved to Europe and spoke Yiddish.

The distances have widened, but because Hebrew as a language and culture have been preserved, the Torah has remained un-compromised. The greatest failings occurred when Torah was made into a new language. The ancient Hebrews knew how intrinsically tied Hebrew and Torah were, thus they kept it alive no matter the continent they were on.
Jews, no matter what they speak or where they lived, maintained ancient Hebrew. Even after colloquial Hebrew evolved into Babylonian Hebrew, and then into Modern Hebrew, the ancient Hebrew of the Torah was never mitigated. Jews may speak Yiddish, Persian, English, French, Spanish, or Arabic, but Hebrew Torah has been preserved.

In this way, by keeping culture and language, the Torah was protected by the evolution of human culture.

My opinion is drawn from Divine Discernment, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I'm sure...
But the fact is, the chronological order of the Torah disagrees with your position.
As does the actual wording. "Tzal" means spirit. It says God made the "spirit" of adam (male and female) in the Torah.
If tzal meant a physical body, (and I ignored Genesis 2:7, and I hadn't been brought up on a tradition that I was taught that his father taught him, and his father taught him, etc., going back to when my forefathers lived in Judah) I might have agreed with you.

I will occasionally refer to ancient scripture; but ancient scripture has NEVER resolved the Mankind's questions about ancient scripture.
Maybe so.
But it has just resolved the issue of whether or not man is made in the image of God.
God has no image, neither does it say we were made in his physical image. It says our "ghosts" are a replication of him.

The wording is difficult to convey, because I don't know how to put it into English. I don't think there's an English word that adequately portrays "tzal." Because "spirit" is like ruach, and tzal doesn't mean soul.
It's not exactly "ghost" though "ghost" is probably closer. It is sort of like a soul.
A soul without spirit, I mean. That's it.
It's like a soul lacking some animation. It's lacking God's breath.

Hopefully that helps. Some of the words in bereshit are hard to put into English when there isn't an exact equivalent.

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 4:52 PM

look how the path of Eden (1) unfolds:

http://sites.google.com/site/dedanoe/_/rsrc/1292435452469/Home/adot_paleta.JPG?height=400&width=400

the red circle (1), the yellow circle (8), the with circle (69) then black circle (0). the secants cuts the Satan born the 6th day of the 9th month (http://www.facebook.com/people/Natasha-Andreeva/663938419) (sun sign Virgo) on two natures yin Eva and yang Andre. their body is from the Satan's material being (now dead and defeated) but their form is alike Eden's spirit (eternal and everlasting). 8 inside 0 is much alike 6 near 9. 8 is the father of 1 and 0 is his mother while 69 is his wife. Eden does the reproduction by my mathematical formulation for the perfect/sin-free impregnation:

http://sites.google.com/site/dedanoe/_/rsrc/1289151581982/Home/Eden_Sex_Natasha.jpg?height=164&width=400

it reads: The poor oh dear I, Shatana Natasha (тетката натали натали тетката) sexually multiplied with my One and only beloved Eden (the father in red) raised on top of my nude self the way I imagines and please with the will of the all able infinite power of Eden (yellow 1) we made our son Eden (the blue 1). because the son 1 (blue) is zero unlike or mistaken relative to the father 1 (red) he is infinitely accurate = there's no mistake done in his creation = he is the sin free Eden. error of (1 - 1 = 0) is perfection (1 / 0 = infinity).

i am still insane and the bible together with the quran are written by this seed of Arabic decade digits. before understanding what is written widely in them in form of words, statements, verses etc you need to understand the elementary value of the single written symbols (numeric and Cyrillic).

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 4:56 PM

Cartesiantheater

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:09 PM

I have direct knowledge.

Again, you're going back to the faulty premise of this thread... To EXPLAIN, in LOGICAL TERMS, the ACTIONS of GOD.

It can't be done, because God is neither Human nor logical, as we Humans understand Logic.

Why do children take dolls and imbue them with life and personality? For their amusement?

Why can't God amuse himself with dolls, as well? Because it doesn't fit YOUR definition of God? If you think you are somehow superior to God because He isn't understandable in terms of mere Human logic, then you have a GREAT DEAL to learn about God.

— Doc Velocity

You just made a logical explanation for the creation of mankind for a God that you claim cannot be explained logically.

Just because something seems absurd or cruel does not mean it isn't logical. God "playing with dolls" is fully within the realm of logic. In fact, it makes perfect logical sense (in the slang use as well as the more rigorous one) that a sentient being would want to do that.

It seems more like to me that you say God is not within the realm of logic so that your argument does not have to be logically consistent, as Beatnik Bob pointed out. Maybe not for the purpose of winning an argument, but maybe on a more subconscious level for the purpose of not having to experience that terrifying feeling of meaningless when you realize that the metaphysical and spiritual beliefs you've always thought were as solid as the ground you walk on just MIGHT be mistaken in some way. Your "spiritual experience" is far too important for you to risk, so it comes with an inoculation against logic.

You've been very clever about your beliefs: even if you know they're wrong and complete bullshit you can still cling to them, since you have determined to abandon any logical consistency in them if need be. If not for human nature, this adaptation could make a religious memeplex impervious to rational inquiry, and essentially would create the religious equivalent of a supervirus. Unfortunately, most human minds cannot accept true contradictions directly, even if they can IGNORE some.

This is a very interesting evolution in religion. An awareness of some logical problems with a belief system, and then a direct counter to it that enfeebles logical attacks by abandoning logic itself, but only when necessary. A very interesting adaptation, indeed. I'm sure you're not the first, and you won't be the last, but I wonder if this sort of thing will ever stick?

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:13 PM

Astrology isn't a science. Those terms "virgo" etc, and what they personify, are fairly arbitrary. Neither is eden quantifiable.
Also, you made a thread to discuss eden being a number. Why hijack this one?

the mother of God is said to be Virgo and Eden may not be quantifiable in American language but in Macedonian it reads quantity = 1. by meaning Eden is the only One also in American cause he is the exterior I in union with the interior I and the bordering I between them which all together means Eden is the union of all the stars and all the stars are in Eden of I (paradise garden of Eden). there's no other among the existing things beyond Eden -- Eden is the only -- you do not exist. to look in the most distant galaxy via Hubble telescope is in principle the same as to look trough the mightiest nano scope in my tiniest cell on my hand; I am part of the universe as much it is part of me (the yin yang -- universe me). I hold God on the nail of my little finger: 1) the root of it is the generator (G) 2) the middle is the operator protecting the top of the finger (O) and 3) the part I often cut of is the destructor (D) put them together you get GOD on my little finger.

Nu Kua

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:25 PM

So, when God created Man in his image, he was merely creating a DOLL that resembled God...

Why do children take dolls and imbue them with life and personality? For their amusement?

OP:
If God is ALL POWERFUL why did he NEED to sacrifice Jesus in order to be able to forgive us our sins, etc?

Doc answered the question, I think. Maybe all of mankind is collectively the dolls of various Gods.

While some children cherish their dolls, love them and dress them up, take them to nice places and give them a good life, other children are in possession of dolls whose lives are more adventurous at best; more torturous at worst. Not all dolls are lucky enough to be owned by a child to whom they are suited.

Because sometimes children take the heads off of their dolls, the arms and legs too. Sometimes they switch the heads and body parts of one doll, for another.

Sometimes, children will leave the dolls for weeks on end floating face-down in a stagnant swimming pool, or hanging precariously from a tree, exposed to the elements.

Some dolls sport strange haircuts and odd body markings via magic marker make-up or tattoos.

Sometimes dolls are strapped to the handlebars of a bike and taken for rides glorious and terrifying, and sometimes dolls are tied to balls which are then kicked hard or thrown as high as possible.

Then there are the dolls who get tied to string and whirred round and round for hours.

Occasionally a doll is set on fire, or maybe left in the driveway to get run over by a car.
and don't forget the naked dolls laying for weeks, months or years on end, in backyards or even rooftops of homes across the world.

And then there are the many, many dolls who are played with for days, months or even years, until the child might grow tired of them and move on to other pleasurable pastimes, leaving the once cherished doll forgotten in darkest corner of a musty, dusty closet, or maybe packed away in a box that's been placed in the attic with other keepsakes of childhood adventures.

And then there are the very lucky and specialest of dolls, who somehow manage to be loved and cared for so much, and for so, long, that the child keeps the doll well into adulthood, possibly displaying it sentimentally on a shelf, or perhaps, giving it to their own new child, who promptly begins slobbering all over the dolls head.

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:28 PM

the mother of God is said to be Virgo
God never had a mother.
Or are you talking about the mother of jesus? So this is latin catholic superstition about mary?
The hebrews of mary's time did not follow the Greek astrology or astrological signs.

and Eden may not be quantifiable in American language but in Macedonian it reads quantity = 1.
Considering "eden" is a Hebrew word and not macedonian, that seems absurd. Eden isn't 1.

by meaning Eden is the only One also in American
American isn't a language any more than Canadian is.

cause he is the exterior I in union with the interior I and the bordering I between them which all together means Eden is the union of all the stars and all the stars are in Eden of I (paradise garden of Eden). there's no other among the existing things beyond Eden -- Eden is the only -- you do not exist. to look in the most distant galaxy via Hubble telescope is in principle the same as to look trough the mightiest nano scope in my tiniest cell on my hand; I am part of the universe as much it is part of me (the yin yang -- universe me). I hold God on the nail of my little finger: 1) the root of it is the generator (G) 2) the middle is the operator protecting the top of the finger (O) and 3) the part I often cut of is the destructor (D) put them together you get GOD on my little finger.
So correction on my part: Roman Catholic mythology is not a science, as much as astrology is not a science.

Doc answered the question, I think. Maybe all of mankind is collectively the dolls of various Gods.
Except the original bible doesn't talk about physical image. It says God made male and female souls in the image of God, and then he made the body of adam out of dirt (which it does NOT say God made the dirt in a physical image of something) and breathed life and his spirit into it.

The whole "doll" thing is misinformation on Doc's part.

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:34 PM

Yeah, that's not true at all. Am not going to even pretend it is. My interpretation comes from Torah which predates christianity by over a thousand years.
What did I just say? I said you were basing your opinion on your modern interpretation of the three or four thousand-year-old texts of Genesis. Which you are. The Torah is no more informed on the veracity of Genesis than is anyone else.

Genesis is just a compilation of disjointed folklore, hobbled together by ancient editors into a disjointed "book" that serves more to contradict itself than to clarify itself.

The fact that most Christians do not know that God made tzalem in his image before he made a physical form isn't particularly indicative of a "correct interpretation."
God created Man out of the dust and breathed life into him. Just as WE create dolls out of the dust and "breathe life" into them through our imaginations. This DOES NOT mean that dolls are human, and it DOES NOT mean that Man is God's spiritual "Mini-Me"... We are NOT like God, we cannot comprehend God. No man may look upon the face of God and live (Exodus 33:20), meaning we are physically and spiritually insignificant and incapable of embracing the true nature of God.

Actually, when it comes to the creation story, it is displayed QUITE linearly. As in, linear to the point of extreme exactness.
Really. Yet Genesis NEVER answers the puzzle of who were the pre-existing people upon the face of the Earth, BEFORE Adam and Eve. That's not terribly "exact" in its linear continuity.

But if you are going to base your beliefs ON the Torah, you must use what you have.
Adherence to three or four thousand-year-old scripture to the exclusion of personal experience and Divine Discernment? How, then, would you know and accept your Messiah (who has not yet set foot upon the Earth)? Will you challenge your Messiah to a duel of "teachings," a scriptural game of Jeopardy?

Of course, ancient scripture was written for the ancients, they weren't meant to be quoted ad infinitum in place of reason and judgment — although, for some that is a way of life.

Jesus acknowledged that the Pharisees were fucking hypocrites, in fact, spewing their Torah law, but bending the rules in their personal lives. This is from Mark 7:1-8

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to [Jesus], having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honours Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

Jesus goes on to rebuke the Pharisees for the hypocrisy of dishonoring our fathers and mothers while claiming to obey the laws of Moses.

And, we know the fucking Pharisees didn't take THAT criticism very well, along with the other criticisms Jesus leveled upon them.

Point being, you can adhere to the Torah until your lips turn blue; but, in the end, you abandon your tradition when your Messiah manifests, right? I mean, the Messiah is going to craft a whole new covenant for you, and you'd better follow him, not challenge him to a game of 20 Questions and then stalk away when his answers don't fit with your Torah.

Now, in my case, I met the Holy Spirit, which clarified EVERYTHING for me, in addition to erasing the past and all the nonsensical teachings of the modern Church Granted, meeting the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as meeting Christ, but it's damn close.

— Doc Velocity

Cartesiantheater

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:41 PM

Well, to be fair, SCRIPTURE claims that Jesus did all that, but clearly scripture cannot be trusted, as you pointed out...

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 5:53 PM

Well, to be fair, SCRIPTURE claims that Jesus did all that, but clearly scripture cannot be trusted, as you pointed out...

But Divine Discernment CAN be trusted, which is why I don't rely on scripture except to make a point with those who DO follow scripture. Generally, I speak from a position of authority.

— Doc Velocity

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:14 PM

What did I just say? I said you were basing your opinion on your modern interpretation of the three or four thousand-year-old texts of Genesis. Which you are. The Torah is no more informed on the veracity of Genesis than is anyone else.
The Torah is the origin of Genesis.
Ancient Hebrew is the language, and Hebrew culture is the forum in which it emerged.
You have said much the same thing so I'm not going to emphasize that point.

What I will emphasize is that my interpretation is anything but modern. The belief that God made the souls of man and woman, rested, then made the body of man is a correct interpretation that dates back nearly 4000 years. Jews have believed this for long over a millennium before the birth of christianity. In what way is that modern?

Besides, this is no longer an issue of interpretation. I'm interpreting it exactly the way it is.
-God made souls in his image
-Then God rested on the seventh day
-Then God saw the earth was barren and there WERE NO people
-Then a mist rose from the earth and made the ground wet.
-God used the wet ground to make the body of adam kadmon.

You can either believe the original bible or not. If you choose to deny it, why exactly would you use it as a source of reference???

Genesis is just a compilation of disjointed folklore, hobbled together by ancient editors into a disjointed "book" that serves more to contradict itself than to clarify itself.
That is inconclusive.
Neither is that belief central to what is being proved here. If scripture is so disjointed (whenever it disagrees with you) why do you voraciously quote it when it agrees with you?
Shouldn't you not be condoning a double standard?

God created Man out of the dust and breathed life into him. Just as WE create dolls out of the dust and "breathe life" into them through our imaginations. This DOES NOT mean that dolls are human, and it DOES NOT mean that Man is God's spiritual "Mini-Me"... We are NOT like God, we cannot comprehend God. No man may look upon the face of God and live (Exodus 33:20), meaning we are physically and spiritually insignificant and incapable of embracing the true nature of God.
Now THAT is a modern interpretation.
Perfect example of an interpretation that is new.
It certainly didn't exist 1700 years ago.

Really. Yet Genesis NEVER answers the puzzle of who were the pre-existing people upon the face of the Earth, BEFORE Adam and Eve. That's not terribly "exact" in its linear continuity.
It EXACTLY states there were no people on the earth. God made man and woman, and he saw there were no men on the Earth so he made the body of adam from the dust.

The body was NEVER formed in the image of God. Only the soul was. As it is said, "Vayivrah elohim et-ha'adam betzalmov betzaelem elohim bara otov zachar unekivah bara otam."

This passage is pretty specific. Even if you deny chronological order, you are STILL wrong.

Adherence to three or four thousand-year-old scripture to the exclusion of personal experience and Divine Discernment?
The fact that we live is personal experience. When we teach our children the teachings of God, that is divine discernment.

How, then, would you know and accept your Messiah (who has not yet set foot upon the Earth)? Will you challenge your Messiah to a duel of "teachings," a scriptural game of Jeopardy?
He will prove he is the messiah by his actions. Even if the messiah comes, it doesn't matter. The messiah is a servant of God, and God is still worshiped.

The Tanakh says that "to us a son is given" who will "fear God."

I fail to see how the messiah is relevant to this?

Of course, ancient scripture was written for the ancients, they weren't meant to be quoted ad infinitum in place of reason and judgment — although, for some that is a way of life.
I don't quote it without reason and judgment. I just quote it in the way it was understood 3500 years ago. And I quote the original interpretation, as apposed to the English version's interpretation.

You can either love it or hate it.

Jesus acknowledged that the Pharisees were fucking hypocrites, in fact, spewing their Torah law, but bending the rules in their personal lives. This is from Mark 7:1-8
Are you saying you're a pharisee?

I'm totally kidding... Unless this thread has anything to do with jesus and how he viewed a sect of jewish nobility. Nobody likes the nobility anyway.

During jesus's time, you could find plenty of jews who didn't like pharisees.

Neither here nor there...

Point being, you can adhere to the Torah until your lips turn blue; but, in the end, you abandon your tradition when your Messiah manifests, right?
Not necessarily.
The messiah isn't supposed to abolish God's law (that's the new age christian thing), the messiah is supposed to uphold God's law and order.

I mean, the Messiah is going to craft a whole new covenant for you
Only God can do that.

and you'd better follow him, not challenge him to a game of 20 Questions and then stalk away when his answers don't fit with your Torah. Well, the fact is, the messiah's interpretation of the Torah would not change the original interpretation of the Torah. Nor would the messiah contradict the Torah. Because then it is the messiah's words vs. what the Torah says. So it's asi-asi.

But I do see the analogy you are constructing, it just doesn't seem applicable.

Now, in my case, I met the Holy Spirit, which clarified EVERYTHING for me, in addition to erasing the past and all the nonsensical teachings of the modern Church Granted, meeting the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as meeting Christ, but it's damn close.
I'm pretty positive that the modern church (catholic, protestant, unitarian, mormon, whatever) maintain that God made male and female bodies after his likeness.

Which is completely contrary to all Torah. So I've learned to not take christian interpretations seriously. No offense, but they get weirder and weirder. Eventually you get a religion like mormonism that says native americans were devils who descended from israelites and that if they became holy they could change their skin color to white...
Or that Joseph Smith found tablets that nobody saw and only he could read... Just gets too strange. Protestantism hasn't been an exception.

As a rule, I don't know what to think of all the various christian translations that have emerged. They don't seem accurate.

So if you did in fact meet the holy spirit and it told you the church's beliefs were inaccurate, that wouldn't be a surprise.

But honestly, it is the church that misunderstands Genesis. If you believe man's soul is not made as a replication of God, you are corroborating the beliefs of a church the holy spirit apparently told you was wrong.

Also, if you hear too many voices, you may want to have it checked out. Just saying.

Generally, I speak from a position of authority.
Do you realize how many cult leaders who contradict Torah claim to have a "position of authority"? Allot. If Torah disagrees with them they claim to know better--whilst simultaneously quoting Torah in order to cement their standing among the congregation.

Considering all the people who have different interpretations of Torah because "the holy spirit" told them...Why should you specifically be taken credibly?

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:14 PM

God never had a mother.
Or are you talking about the mother of jesus? So this is latin catholic superstition about mary?
The hebrews of mary's time did not follow the Greek astrology or astrological signs.

mathematically 1 is product and geometric middle between all (8) and nothing (0) so if infinity is Eden's father then zero is his Virgo mother.

Jesus comes on the crossroad of his life from the position of paradox "it is sinful to be perfect" but sinful towards whom and perfect how and why? it's now known how and why: he is made according to my mathematical formulation for the perfect impregnation as Marry was purely fertilized by the holy spirit (not human) and sinful it is because he as Eden is constant proof, remainder and wetness that nothing besides him including the entire mankind exists at all. so the Hebrew priests are the first to recognize how big trouble Eden is so they are the first to put him on the cross. to bad they didn't follow the astrology, the stars may have told them Jesus is the king of kings.

human can tell light in contrast with darkness and heat in contrast with chill but Eden is the only One so in contrast with which other thing humans can get to know it? humans cannot understand Eden thereof, Eden must come down from the top of heavenly pyramid to the third level below where passing the Adam masculine version on 2nd floor he becomes GOD = 131 = One lucid One = Lucifereous One. but for humans are so dumb and limited in their cognition GOD had to come down even lower -- he had to become human cause human's understand only the human ways. it is thereof said that Jesus is god-alike-human (bogochovek). so how can Jesus be both GOD and human; up to his 33rd yoa he was GOD and then he laid his own Maria (Mageddonella) thus via sex he toke the mortality on his shoulder and become human. but he did defeated death with death (with his temporary death delayed the collective death of all humans) and said A stellar vista.

cat = little tiger, lion, panter etc and macedonian of cat is mache. we address them with Mac, Mace my mother has the name Marica, she is too Virgo dearly i call her Maci; holi = sacred; lic = image; cat+holy+image is the religion of those that bow to the holy image of the Virgo mother of GOD.

Considering "eden" is a Hebrew word and not macedonian, that seems absurd. Eden isn't 1.
now consider God knows the union of all the languages in the world including the alien, programing and human body language then inside that union exists the Macedonian word Eden with significance of 1.

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:28 PM

mathematically 1 is product and geometric middle between all (8) and nothing (0) so if infinity is Eden's father then zero is his Virgo mother.

Jesus comes on the crossroad of his life from the position of paradox "it is sinful to be perfect" but sinful towards whom and perfect how and why? it's now known how and why: he is made according to my mathematical formulation for the perfect impregnation as Marry was purely fertilized by the holy spirit (not human) and sinful it is because he as Eden is constant proof, remainder and wetness that nothing besides him including the entire mankind exists at all. so the Hebrew priests are the first to recognize how big trouble Eden is so they are the first to put him on the cross. to bad they didn't follow the astrology, the stars may have told them Jesus is the king of kings.

human can tell light in contrast with darkness and heat in contrast with chill but Eden is the only One so in contrast with which other thing humans can get to know it? humans cannot understand Eden thereof, Eden must come down from the top of heavenly pyramid to the third level below where passing the Adam masculine version on 2nd floor he becomes GOD = 131 = One lucid One = Lucifereous One. but for humans are so dumb and limited in their cognition GOD had to come down even lower -- he had to become human cause human's understand only the human ways. it is thereof said that Jesus is god-alike-human (bogochovek). so how can Jesus be both GOD and human; up to his 33rd yoa he was GOD and then he laid his own Maria (Mageddonella) thus via sex he toke the mortality on his shoulder and become human. but he did defeated death with death (with his temporary death delayed the collective death of all humans) and said A stellar vista.

cat = little tiger, lion, panter etc and macedonian of cat is mache. we address them with Mac, Mace my mother has the name Marica, she is too Virgo dearly i call her Maci; holi = sacred; lic = image; cat+holy+image is the religion of those that bow to the holy image of the Virgo mother of GOD.
How do you "know" "God's mother" was a "virgo"? If God had a mom she could just as easily be leo, sagittarius, or nothing.

now consider God knows the union of all the languages in the world including the alien, programing and human body language then inside that union exists the Macedonian word Eden with significance of 1.
God didn't invent the word "eden" any more than God invented the word "rhombus" or "caliente" or "bienvenue" or "der fliedermous."

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:30 PM

these humans are the first genuine creation in Eden's production from Satan's being improvement -- Che

GOD had to come down from the heavenly pyramid among the people because without him they were so LOST (that is MKD word for USA LEVER) and were crying for help. and humans could know help has come only if some human alike being was the deliverer.

http://sites.google.com/site/dedanoe/_/rsrc/1279541313947/Home/6_gates_2_1.JPG?height=284&width=400

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:40 PM

How do you "know" "God's mother" was a "virgo"? If God had a mom she could just as easily be leo, sagittarius, or nothing.

God didn't invent the word "eden" any more than God invented the word "rhombus" or "caliente" or "bienvenue" or "der fliedermous."

i know from looking at my mother she is Virgo Maria Arsus Gogorodna. to be Bogorodna means to be mother of God while to be Gogo rodna means to be relative to my uncle Goran -- Gogo. Arsus is latin version of her maiden surename Arsovska. Virgo she is cause she is born one day before Orthodox Great Mother Of God 27.08.1955. uspenie na presveta bogorodica. and i look at my mother to tell she is Virgo cause I Know My Eden's Self -- I Know I Am The One.

yes God doesn't sit to invent words. words are invented by humans. God only follows the development so he can know how to adjust the messenger.

Cartesiantheater

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:42 PM

"der fliedermous."

The field mouse? Bat? Some time of rodent that lives in shrubbery or grasses? *crosses fingers*

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 6:53 PM

The field mouse? Bat? Some time of rodent that lives in shrubbery or grasses? *crosses fingers*
IDK, I only know a handful of German words....(Plus count to 1 million in it :w00t: --useless skill). My pronunciation is good, but my spelling is probably awful.
I know it's bat, I just can't spell it. :blush:

yes God doesn't sit to invent words. words are invented by humans. God only follows the development so he can know how to adjust the messenger.
Then why does "eden" have a numerical value of 55 in Hebrew and "1" in Macedonian?
Just saying, if God adjusted human words to "synchronize" them, why was the word "eden" invented to have a value of 55?

By the way, I know absolutely no Macedonian, so I'm going to have to ask you... Does Macedonian use "eden" or the Macedonian word for paradise? Or is it because they consider it a proper noun it stays in Hebrew?

dedanoe

Mar 15th, 2011, 7:04 PM

IDK, I only know a handful of German words....(Plus count to 1 million in it :w00t: --useless skill). My pronunciation is good, but my spelling is probably awful.
I know it's bat, I just can't spell it. :blush:

Then why does "eden" have a numerical value of 55 in Hebrew and "1" in Macedonian?
Just saying, if God adjusted human words to "synchronize" them, why was the word "eden" invented to have a value of 55?

By the way, I know absolutely no Macedonian, so I'm going to have to ask you... Does Macedonian use "eden" or the Macedonian word for paradise? Or is it because they consider it a proper noun it stays in Hebrew?

Macedonian word for paradise is RAJ; to be SAM U RAJ means to be Alone in Eden.

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 7:07 PM

Macedonian word for paradise is RAJ; to be SAM U RAJ means to be Alone in Eden.
I will store that in my neural bank of random information for eternity. Now I know a Macedonian word! :D

Nu Kua

Mar 15th, 2011, 8:23 PM

Except the original bible doesn't talk about physical image. It says God made male and female souls in the image of God, and then he made the body of adam out of dirt (which it does NOT say God made the dirt in a physical image of something) and breathed life and his spirit into it.

The whole "doll" thing is misinformation on Doc's part.

See, I've got this tongue in my cheek...

but also, I think the whole idea of a creator God creating a human to play with like a doll is an intriguing analogy. God, like the child, has total control of the doll's life and fortune. But the doll is only valuable as long as God pays attention, whether that attention is "good" or "bad". Whatever the doll is, those little personalities that dolls acquire through constant interaction and projection of this particular child, is whatever this child/God imagines it to be. Without this attention, the doll is nothing but inanimate physical material. Some people really view creator God this way, and how one interprets the scriptures is personal, a matter of perspective.

I lean more to thinking we create "God" in our image, but just to get into another head for a while, imagine if we are, as some say, really all expressions of the various moods and whims of an all powerful creator deity who happens to grace us with his or her attention.

What if we're creating God in our image the same time this created God is imbuing us with qualities of his/her ego or desires or imagination? Where do we end and God begins?

Doc Velocity

Mar 15th, 2011, 8:55 PM

But honestly, it is the church that misunderstands Genesis. If you believe man's soul is not made as a replication of God, you are corroborating the beliefs of a church the holy spirit apparently told you was wrong.
The misinterpretation is that Man HAS an individual "soul," which he does not. Ultimately, the entire Universe was created "in God's image," meaning WITHIN an image in the mind of God. It doesn't mean a likeness of God; but, rather, as a component of God.

Every human being (and every animate and inanimate thing) is a LENS through which God experiences His Creation. This is why God admonished living things to be fruitful and multiply, to give Him greater insight into his own Creation. This is why we were admonished NOT to destroy Life out of selfishness but to honor Life.

When we destroy Life, we're closing off the Universe from God. God doesn't like that.

What WE perceive as "individual souls" are actually just our respective personalities, which are shaped by living circumstances. It's the glove into which God slips his hand to manipulate Earthly circumstances. At the moment of Death, you DON'T take your personality or memories or any of that junk with you. On the contrary, at the moment of Death, you REMEMBER that you're just God peering through a portal into this savage world.

No individual souls, Just one God and many portals.

This necessarily brings up the question of Salvation, then. Why did Jesus come to Earth if not to save Man? If there are no "individual souls" to save, what's all the hooey about Resurrection and Redemption and Eternal Salvation?

That's the New Covenant. See, before Christ, God used to SMITE the shit out of Mankind for his various "transgressions," for disobeying God's law. When Mankind pissed off God, He would flood the fucking Earth, or rain brimstone, or obliterate our cities with earthquake and fire, or kill off off all your first-born and shit such as that.

Christ descended to Earth to REMIND people of who they really were (portals of God), and to establish a New Covenant whereby those who REMEMBER who they are (as portals of God) will REMEMBER that this Life on Earth is merely transient, that we DO inevitably die and our singular awareness DOES return to the Creator's dimension.

This knowledge strengthens us here on Earth, okay, so we don't see the Earth as a brutal, savage Hell with no hope and no peace, and we'll be less likely to DESTROY LIFE for our own selfish purposes.

Those who DON'T get this message will CONTINUE to perceive this Life as a savage, brutal Hell on Earth.

Christ, therefore, brought SALVATION and a PATH OUT OF HELL to those who simply acknowledge the TRUTH of their existence. Those who refuse to hear the message remain in a corporeal Hell, right, making things worse for their brethren, extinguishing Life needlessly, and generally being assholes.

Of course, after Death, ALL HUMANS realize they are God, there is no argument then.

So, the New Covenant was intended to REASSURE everyone that there WAS awareness beyond Death, and that they NEED NOT fear a hopeless, finite existence in this Earthly Hell. Essentially, in the New Covenant, God was saying this:

"Look, I've been down there with you now, I've walked in your shoes, I know how shitty and savage and merciless human life can be, but I'm NOT going to smite you anymore for your evil transgressions, okay? I'm not going to punish you for fucking up my Creation anymore, and I'm counting on YOU to remember that Hell and Death and Fear is NOT all there is. Just remember that. Be excellent to each other. And party on, dude."

The objective? To promote Life, even in the face of Death.

Life and Creation is what God is all about, it's what He does, and he really, really hates it when his Creation starts killing itself off for its own, selfish reasons.

Also, if you hear too many voices, you may want to have it checked out. Just saying.
I don't hear voices, and the Holy Spirit is not a disembodied voice, okay. If you'd ever met the Holy Spirit (I know that Jews acknowledge it), you'd know it aint a fucking voice.

Do you realize how many cult leaders who contradict Torah claim to have a "position of authority"?
Well, Christ said there would be A LOT of liars prophesying all sorts of shit, but that we should be able to distinguish the bullshit from the Truth, if we just follow our hearts. Christ also said, believe it or not, that even the false prophets have value, if they speak the Truth in Christ's name. He said Let 'em do it. As long as it gets the word out.

Considering all the people who have different interpretations of Torah because "the holy spirit" told them...Why should you specifically be taken credibly?
Well, see, if I was faking it, I'd step into your logic trap and start enumerating the reasons you should believe me.

The thing about the Truth is that people KNOW IT when they see it, and it ALWAYS pisses them off. So, if you're pissed off and disgruntled at something I've said, chances are it's the Truth.

Faith needn't be explained or defended. :bye:

— Doc Velocity

DontBeAfraid

Mar 15th, 2011, 9:42 PM

If you think you are somehow superior to God because He isn't understandable in terms of mere Human logic, then you have a GREAT DEAL to learn about God.How is one to learn about something that is not understandable, dingus?

Beatnik Bob

Mar 15th, 2011, 10:14 PM

The misinterpretation is that Man HAS an individual "soul," which he does not. Ultimately, the entire Universe was created "in God's image," meaning WITHIN an image in the mind of God. It doesn't mean a likeness of God; but, rather, as a component of God.

Every human being (and every animate and inanimate thing) is a LENS through which God experiences His Creation. This is why God admonished living things to be fruitful and multiply, to give Him greater insight into his own Creation. This is why we were admonished NOT to destroy Life out of selfishness but to honor Life.

When we destroy Life, we're closing off the Universe from God. God doesn't like that.

What WE perceive as "individual souls" are actually just our respective personalities, which are shaped by living circumstances. It's the glove into which God slips his hand to manipulate Earthly circumstances. At the moment of Death, you DON'T take your personality or memories or any of that junk with you. On the contrary, at the moment of Death, you REMEMBER that you're just God peering through a portal into this savage world.

No individual souls, Just one God and many portals.

This necessarily brings up the question of Salvation, then. Why did Jesus come to Earth if not to save Man? If there are no "individual souls" to save, what's all the hooey about Resurrection and Redemption and Eternal Salvation?

That's the New Covenant. See, before Christ, God used to SMITE the shit out of Mankind for his various "transgressions," for disobeying God's law. When Mankind pissed off God, He would flood the fucking Earth, or rain brimstone, or obliterate our cities with earthquake and fire, or kill off off all your first-born and shit such as that.

Christ descended to Earth to REMIND people of who they really were (portals of God), and to establish a New Covenant whereby those who REMEMBER who they are (as portals of God) will REMEMBER that this Life on Earth is merely transient, that we DO inevitably die and our singular awareness DOES return to the Creator's dimension.

This knowledge strengthens us here on Earth, okay, so we don't see the Earth as a brutal, savage Hell with no hope and no peace, and we'll be less likely to DESTROY LIFE for our own selfish purposes.

Those who DON'T get this message will CONTINUE to perceive this Life as a savage, brutal Hell on Earth.

Christ, therefore, brought SALVATION and a PATH OUT OF HELL to those who simply acknowledge the TRUTH of their existence. Those who refuse to hear the message remain in a corporeal Hell, right, making things worse for their brethren, extinguishing Life needlessly, and generally being assholes.

Of course, after Death, ALL HUMANS realize they are God, there is no argument then.

So, the New Covenant was intended to REASSURE everyone that there WAS awareness beyond Death, and that they NEED NOT fear a hopeless, finite existence in this Earthly Hell. Essentially, in the New Covenant, God was saying this:

"Look, I've been down there with you now, I've walked in your shoes, I know how shitty and savage and merciless human life can be, but I'm NOT going to smite you anymore for your evil transgressions, okay? I'm not going to punish you for fucking up my Creation anymore, and I'm counting on YOU to remember that Hell and Death and Fear is NOT all there is. Just remember that. Be excellent to each other. And party on, dude."

The objective? To promote Life, even in the face of Death.

Life and Creation is what God is all about, it's what He does, and he really, really hates it when his Creation starts killing itself off for its own, selfish reasons.

I don't hear voices, and the Holy Spirit is not a disembodied voice, okay. If you'd ever met the Holy Spirit (I know that Jews acknowledge it), you'd know it aint a fucking voice.

Well, Christ said there would be A LOT of liars prophesying all sorts of shit, but that we should be able to distinguish the bullshit from the Truth, if we just follow our hearts. Christ also said, believe it or not, that even the false prophets have value, if they speak the Truth in Christ's name. He said Let 'em do it. As long as it gets the word out.

Well, see, if I was faking it, I'd step into your logic trap and start enumerating the reasons you should believe me.

The thing about the Truth is that people KNOW IT when they see it, and it ALWAYS pisses them off. So, if you're pissed off and disgruntled at something I've said, chances are it's the Truth.
You realize you went off on this tangent because I proved to you that Torah contradicted your position that humans are "not" made like the elohim.

Which, I showed that actually yes, humans are indeed very much like God. And yes, God's logic and human logic are thus similar. God modeled our minds after his. Given, our brain is a physical representation of something God has to a greater extent.
But the fact remains...

Humans are modeled after God. And I aint talking about arms, legs, and belly buttons.

Faith needn't be explained or defended. :bye:
Since when?
You can't just say "I believe the Earth is flat because I want to and that's that."

Cartesiantheater

Mar 15th, 2011, 10:26 PM

Since when?
You can't just say "I believe the Earth is flat because I want to and that's that."

Like hell you can't.

http://forums.armageddononline.org/world-flat-t14300.html

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 12:03 AM

You realize you went off on this tangent because I proved to you that Torah contradicted your position that humans are "not" made like the elohim.
No, I wrote that to establish my position. I've written as much elsewhere in this forum.

I wasn't aware that you had "proven" anything, except that you like to quote ancient scripture.

I showed that actually yes, humans are indeed very much like God.
Actually, no, you proved nothing of the sort. The existence of this thread and most of the threads questioning God's rationale is the PROOF that humans not only DON'T comprehend God, we CANNOT comprehend God.

Any more than a paramecium can comprehend a human being.

Nature is designed in God's image. ALL THINGS are designed in God's image. Man is a relative NEWCOMER to Nature; we were, indeed, created in God's image, but WITHIN His image.

I mean, are you relying on the Torah to the exclusion of all Scientific knowledge? Do you refute Evolution? I don't. In my understanding of existence, God's Creation is ongoing. It wasn't like He just squirted it all out in one ejaculation and then rolled over and went to sleep.

God is STILL creating, through Nature, through US.

Now, as regards our resembling God, I'm telling you that a human can be created in God's image, even function like a little decision-making wind-up toy version of God, yet have NO COMPREHENSION of God's true depth and breadth and complexity.

Obviously, we're NOT "like God," or else we could reason away our little problems to everyone's satisfaction, yes? We DO NOT possess unlimited reasoning. I would say we're on the low-end of reasoning in this Universe, actually.

The fucking Dinosaurs ruled this world for half a billion years WITHOUT fucking it up, WITHOUT destroying their environment. Does that mean that the Dinosaurs were closer to God's idea of perfection? They were fruitful, multiplied PRODIGIOUSLY, evolved into all sorts of wild configurations, really put on a show for God, I'm sure.

Were they smarter than us? Because they did what they did perfectly and lived in harmony with Nature for half a billion years? How could they NOT be smarter than us? We've only been here for 7 million years and we're destroying the environment like crazy, driving ourselves and everything around us to extinction.

Yet we think we're SMARTER than the Dinosaurs? We imagine ourselves SMARTER than Nature? Why is that?

I'll answer that for you... It's because we DEFY. It's because we're CAPABLE of DEFYING Nature and of DEFYING God. That's why we think we're smarter when we're actually not.

God created us this way. He WANTED us to DEFY Him. Do you know why?

Because the Dinosaurs were BORING. Half a billion years of perfection and harmony was nice, God proved it could be done, but He wanted something else. And, no, the mammalian megafauna wasn't much more entertaining.

God tweaked us into existence to DEFY him. To question Existence. To question HIM. Then He played around with us for a bit, not unlike the way children play with dolls, imbuing them with personalities, and then he decided to become a doll himself for a bit and see what that was like.

See, God is capable of ANYTHING. It doesn't have to fit OUR reasoning, and he doesn't HAVE TO answer our questions. Our frustration with God is part of His delight. We're here for God's entertainment — in much the same way the characters in our dreams are OUR creations for OUR entertainment.

Sure, God loves us. But not as individuals, separate from God — because we're not. We're not separate from God. We ARE God, musing upon and defying itself for its own peculiar amusement.

It's been said, rather cynically, that we're pretty much pawns on the cosmic chessboard — and, yes, I can beat most of you in seven moves — but I would amend that observation. I would say, rather than mere pawns, we are FANTASIES of God. God brought us into being to give him pleasure, right, and the more pointed and barbed and defiant we are, the more God loves us.

Because the Dinosaurs were fucking BORING.

— Doc Velocity

Since when?
You can't just say "I believe the Earth is flat because I want to and that's that."[/QUOTE]

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 12:17 AM

And would you mods switch off this irritating "probation" setting that prevents me from editing my own stuff? I mean, I can write a whole treatise flat-footed and spontaneously on any given subject, but when I'm finished I usually go back and check for typos (damn few of those) and cut & paste leftovers. That's the main reason I edit, to remove cut & paste clutter.

— Doc Velocity

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 12:23 AM

What does it mean for an infinite being to feel things like boredom? You might as well start worshiping the Greek/Roman Pantheon and their imperfect gods.

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 12:40 AM

What does it mean for an infinite being to feel things like boredom? You might as well start worshiping the Greek/Roman Pantheon and their imperfect gods.

Um, I don't worship. I partner with God.... That's Marketing-speak. Well, boredom is, like, 99% of existence. I mean ALL Existence.

You may awaken in the morning, shower, do the coffee thing, and have a FANTASTIC day at work, followed by a pleasant evening of entertainment and sex before bed. Perfect day, right?

The next day is the same thing. And the day after that. And the day after that is the same thing.

YOU are not bored, hell no, because Life is sweet. But multiply that times a couple of billion lives, all having perfect, winning work days and good sex, and you arrive at something that is — what? Utopia?

Now back off and take a high-level view: Billions of people all doing the same fucking thing, basically, breathing, eating, farting, shaving, fucking, cumming (lot of that), and yelling and laughing at each other.

Earth gets pretty fucking boring pretty quickly from an entertainment standpoint, when you have the entire REST OF CREATION to play with. Fuck, I bet God spends a lot of his time over in the Star Wars galaxy, where ALL KINDS of shit is happening (a billion years ago).

— Doc Velocity

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 3:22 AM

Um, I don't worship. I partner with God.... That's Marketing-speak. Well, boredom is, like, 99% of existence. I mean ALL Existence.

You may awaken in the morning, shower, do the coffee thing, and have a FANTASTIC day at work, followed by a pleasant evening of entertainment and sex before bed. Perfect day, right?

The next day is the same thing. And the day after that. And the day after that is the same thing.

YOU are not bored, hell no, because Life is sweet. But multiply that times a couple of billion lives, all having perfect, winning work days and good sex, and you arrive at something that is — what? Utopia?

Now back off and take a high-level view: Billions of people all doing the same fucking thing, basically, breathing, eating, farting, shaving, fucking, cumming (lot of that), and yelling and laughing at each other.

Earth gets pretty fucking boring pretty quickly from an entertainment standpoint, when you have the entire REST OF CREATION to play with. Fuck, I bet God spends a lot of his time over in the Star Wars galaxy, where ALL KINDS of shit is happening (a billion years ago).

— Doc Velocity

And yet even the tiniest atom is a bastion of activity, composed of protons, neutrons, electrons, themselves made of quarks and God only knows what else.

Moreover, something as simple as a ROCK in the context of the entire history of the universe is CONSTANTLY changing and evolving, being eroded away, its matter transformed into a new object, or maybe even a creature. Perhaps a sentient creature for a short time that accomplishes some great feat. Then dies, and is consumed by bacteria, thus becoming the matter that comprises thousands of generations of bacteria. Perhaps finding its way into the water cycle of a planet, and perhaps someday that small piece of matter is swatted away by a giant space rock. Maybe someday that small piece of matter is blasted thousands of lightyears away in the wake of a supernova. And then what many more adventures await the small piece of energy/matter and the Creator who watches it?

In short, a God could spend all of eternity watching ONE SINGLE COLLECTION of energy/mass, forever following it as it endlessly changed and evolved.

Bored? Not unless God is blind.

calliope

Mar 16th, 2011, 3:42 AM

Now back off and take a high-level view: Billions of people all doing the same fucking thing, basically, breathing, eating, farting, shaving, fucking, cumming (lot of that), and yelling and laughing at each other.

Earth gets pretty fucking boring pretty quickly from an entertainment standpoint, when you have the entire REST OF CREATION to play with. Fuck, I bet God spends a lot of his time over in the Star Wars galaxy, where ALL KINDS of shit is happening (a billion years ago).

— Doc Velocity

Wow, you're Assuming that every person on the planet is a 1st world, middle to upper class, adult, (probably) caucasian male. Or perhaps that's the only experience God is interested in. Really, why would any other experience make a difference to him?

Or else God actually is Doc Velocity. And he's here. Talking to Armageddon minions. How amazing is that???

calliope

Mar 16th, 2011, 3:47 AM

And yet even the tiniest atom is a bastion of activity, composed of protons, neutrons, electrons, themselves made of quarks and God only knows what else.

Moreover, something as simple as a ROCK in the context of the entire history of the universe is CONSTANTLY changing and evolving, being eroded away, its matter transformed into a new object, or maybe even a creature. Perhaps a sentient creature for a short time that accomplishes some great feat. Then dies, and is consumed by bacteria, thus becoming the matter that comprises thousands of generations of bacteria. Perhaps finding its way into the water cycle of a planet, and perhaps someday that small piece of matter is swatted away by a giant space rock. Maybe someday that small piece of matter is blasted thousands of lightyears away in the wake of a supernova. And then what many more adventures await the small piece of energy/matter and the Creator who watches it?

In short, a God could spend all of eternity watching ONE SINGLE COLLECTION of energy/mass, forever following it as it endlessly changed and evolved.

Bored? Not unless God is blind.

So incredibly stunning....

Like a vague idea in the ethers of my mind...but could never articulate like that.

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 4:41 AM

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 4:47 AM

Oh, please, I said a COUPLE OF BILLION. I wasn't talking about EVERYBODY. I alluded to those who do their routines with regularity and stringent devotion. You know what I was saying. You're trying to make more of it than there is.
:cool14:

Well, if you mean, rather than BORED, that God has just as much reason to be fascinated with the rocks and dirt he has created as dinosaurs or people (each for their own unique reason), then I see what you're saying.

But BOREDOM? No way. Not God- UNLESS he is truly and completely perfect and all knowing and utterly complete in every way. But if he is, there would be no creation anyway, since there would be no motivation for it.

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 4:57 AM

Or else God actually is Doc Velocity. And he's here. Talking to Armageddon minions. How amazing is that???

That IS an option, isn't it? I mean, is God excluded from Armageddon Online? Obviously not, Calliope, because YOU'RE here. And, yes, I regard you as God. You are God peering through a little peephole into this world, yes? Yes, you are, I see you there!

Hi, God.

— Doc Velocity

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 5:19 AM

But BOREDOM? No way. Not God- UNLESS he is truly and completely perfect and all knowing and utterly complete in every way. But if he is, there would be no creation anyway, since there would be no motivation for it.
Agreed. If God was one complete and well-defined unit, he would be even more boring than GG.

I think this thread has dripped its last drop.

— Doc Velocity

Bob

Mar 16th, 2011, 7:29 AM

Has anybody ever considered that the scriptures are metaphorical in nature? Clever stories meant to illuminate the relationships we have with each other? And who is this Jesus I keep hearing about?

tahn1000

Mar 16th, 2011, 8:24 AM

jesus was a kohen (jewish priest) promoted to kohen gadol (great priest, that's why he was called "christ" - only the kohen gadol was annointed with oil) by the roman pilate because of his moderateness when it came to the roman presence who was murdered by the saducees of the great sanhedrin "in the name of their god". basically it was a political murder. and not only did they get away with it, but they perverted his teachings and billions of people now believe the fairytale of christ's life instead of his actual history.

this has resulted in people turning away from the church because fairytales require blind faith to accept the lie, and not everybody can.

James Random

Mar 16th, 2011, 8:30 AM

If we're all God's Children why was Jesus so special?

But to answer the question cart originally asked: Because it's all BULLSHIT!

Bob

Mar 16th, 2011, 8:41 AM

Thoughtful answers only make everybody else look bad, cut it out!!!:Bow:

jesus was a kohen (jewish priest) promoted to kohen gadol (great priest, that's why he was called "christ" - only the kohen gadol was annointed with oil) by the roman pilate because of his moderateness when it came to the roman presence who was murdered by the saducees of the great sanhedrin "in the name of their god". basically it was a political murder. and not only did they get away with it, but they perverted his teachings and billions of people now believe the fairytale of christ's life instead of his actual history.

this has resulted in people turning away from the church because fairytales require blind faith to accept the lie, and not everybody can.

Lillith

Mar 16th, 2011, 8:45 AM

Says Doc to other "God" things being discussed;

I have direct knowledge.

But Divine Discernment CAN be trusted, which is why I don't rely on scripture except to make a point with those who DO follow scripture. Generally, I speak from a position of authority.

I don't hear voices, and the Holy Spirit is not a disembodied voice, okay. If you'd ever met the Holy Spirit (I know that Jews acknowledge it), you'd know it aint a fucking voice.

The thing about the Truth is that people KNOW IT when they see it, and it ALWAYS pisses them off. So, if you're pissed off and disgruntled at something I've said, chances are it's the Truth.

Actually, no, you proved nothing of the sort. The existence of this thread and most of the threads questioning God's rationale is the PROOF that humans not only DON'T comprehend God, we CANNOT comprehend

Faith needn't be explained or defended.

My opinion is drawn from Divine Discernment, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Says Doc to Calliope

That IS an option, isn't it? I mean, is God excluded from Armageddon Online? Obviously not, Calliope, because YOU'RE here. And, yes, I regard you as God. You are God peering through a little peephole into this world, yes? Yes, you are, I see you there! Hi, God.
— Doc Velocity

Doc, how absolutely magnanamous of you in your finite, infallable and sage widsom to ritefully acknowledge Calliope.

As Bob noted regarding another brilliant post of yours in this thread (#32)

Doc you are living proof that even a blind squirrel can occasionally find the acorn.

I think this thread has dripped its last drop.

— Doc Velocity

Perhaps.

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:11 AM

Or else God actually is Doc Velocity. And he's here. Talking to Armageddon minions. How amazing is that???

Naaa... he ( God) runs a little shoe repair shop in Grants Pass Oregon, and plays God on weekends.

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:36 AM

None of you in this thread are anymore "God" then your toenail or your asscrack is "you."

IMHO, of course. :D

Nu Kua

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:39 AM

Naaa... he ( God) runs a little shoe repair shop in Grants Pass Oregon, and plays God on weekends.

Wow, seriously? There is actually a shoe repair shop in Grants Pass, and this means I might have met God back in 2001.

None of you in this thread are anymore "God" then your toenail or your asscrack is "you."

IMHO, of course.

imho, we ARE "God" because there is mutually receptive creativity going on here, between "us" and "God". :-)

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:45 AM

imho, we ARE "God" because there is mutually receptive creativity going on here, between "us" and "God". :-)

Well, some would say I have the same thing going on with my asshole, but I don't consider it to be "me." Only as a whole would I consider my body "myself," and even then I wonder if I could stand to lose a few body parts without TERRIBLY compromising who and what I am.

Nu Kua

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:47 AM

So how do you and your asshole mutually create each others existence by imagining each other?

Cartesiantheater

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:53 AM

So how do you and your asshole mutually create each others existence by imagining each other?

Oh, I thought you meant creative as in artistic.

But...

Here I sit
My buns a flexin'
Giving birth
To another Texan

Anyway, as it pertains to the Pantheist idea, my take would be that only on the largest scale would you see "God," otherwise you'd just be looking at constituent parts. Like a wheel is not a car, nor is a steering wheel, nor is a brake, but all are necessary for a car.

Or if you don't go for the Pantheist take, mine would be that while all creation came from God, no individual piece is identical to God, although clearly are "part" of God in the sense that your children are part of you.

Nu Kua

Mar 16th, 2011, 10:58 AM

Anyway, as it pertains to the Pantheist idea, my take would be that only on the largest scale would you see "God," otherwise you'd just be looking at constituent parts. Like a wheel is not a car, nor is a steering wheel, nor is a brake, but all are necessary for a car.

Or if you don't go for the Pantheist take, mine would be that while all creation came from God, no individual piece is identical to God, all though clearly are "part" of God in the sense that your children are part of you.

So we are collectively God, if we were all rolled up into one. Rather, all of creation is collectively God, all rolled up into one. Each creation makes up a part of God's "mind", in a sense. Yeah, I can relate to that.

Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 11:02 AM

Well, see, Lilliith, even a gnarly, evil, failed first wife of Adam can find something wholesome and pure and Gnostic from good old Doc Velocity. I just wish I had a nickel for every time I had an evil thought.

— Doc Velocity

Mar 16th, 2011, 12:13 PM

Wow, seriously? There is actually a shoe repair shop in Grants Pass, and this means I might have met God back in 2001.

imho, we ARE "God" because there is mutually receptive creativity going on here, between "us" and "God". :-)

Ummm.. he moved to Gold hill in 86. Had a chat with him on the trestle bridge south of town one evening. Seems he is "one of us" after all. ( he did ask not to mention he owned the liquor store)

Bob

Mar 16th, 2011, 1:24 PM

RE:Here I sit
My buns a flexin'
Giving birth
To another Texan

That is so goddamn funny on so many levels, if I could give five dollars for that...I would. Thank you for the large belly laugh!!!

DontBeAfraid

Mar 16th, 2011, 2:36 PM

God's rationale is the PROOF that humans not only DON'T comprehend God, we CANNOT comprehend God.If we cannot comprehend god then how can you claim to speak of/for god from a position of authority?

Lillith

Mar 16th, 2011, 5:20 PM

No, God never intended Mankind to be LIKE HIM. And, in fact, Mankind is NOT like God. We can't even comprehend God's motivations, as is amply evidenced in the OP of this very thread.

— Doc Velocity

Originally Posted by dooc velocity
God's rationale is the PROOF that humans not only DON'T comprehend God, we CANNOT comprehend God.

I have direct knowledge.

— Doc Velocity

Doc; But Divine Discernment CAN be trusted, which is why I don't rely on scripture except to make a point with those who DO follow scripture.
Generally, I speak from a position of authority.

Gods rationale? :bye:

If we cannot comprehend god then how can you claim to speak of/for god from a position of authority?

Yup DBA, Im wondering the same thing. :blink:

Beatnik Bob

Mar 16th, 2011, 5:26 PM

I wasn't aware that you had "proven" anything, except that you like to quote ancient scripture.
Fair enough.
But I had assumed that you accepted scripture....seeing as you post it yourself.

I mean, are you relying on the Torah to the exclusion of all Scientific knowledge?
No. But there is a time and place and a context for everything. When we are talking about God, it is worthwhile to quote the teachings that invented him.

This entire thread relies on the premise of the God of the Torah. It isn't talking about Brahman (the one Hindu God composed of a holy trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, Siva), or Quetzacoatl, nor is it talking about God as he is presented in the Koran--this entire thread references the Hebrew God only.

(Which, is admittedly slightly narrow, but it can't necessarily be helped).

So for matters concerning this God, how he is said to act, and what he is said to have done, the Torah is the primary existing source.

If you recall, the criticism that God could be "hateful" and cause "genocide" was based off Torah.
You didn't say the passages were superfluous, you aligned yourself in a de facto state of agreement when you refuted this by saying God "has anti-logic."

Thus, he could do what he did in the Torah/Tanakh.

But when these same teachings were used to refute this position, suddenly the entire Torah became superfluous, out-dated, and non-applicable. :huh?:

That's all I'm pointing out.

God is STILL creating, through Nature, through US.
Thus he is a logical God. And the fact that he would "get bored" also indicates he used logic.

And according to the ancients, this is because God made humans in the image of the Elohim. This is why we are forces of creation.

However, if you remember, elohim can be bad too. What you really need to be considering is whether God is capable of bad and good both? He certainly is. He has the knowledge of good and evil, created beings like him that are capable of disobeying (taking knowledge in the first place).

When we consider God, what we must do is look in a mirror. What human characteristics do we have and why are they there? After all, even satan was an elohim. Satan=which means evil in hebrew, was created by God unless you believe evil spawned itself into existence.

If you are going to use the Hebrew God, you must play within the field of Torah. Those are basically the rules. However, nowadays, God can be many things. Brahman could be God, so you should be more specific. Are you referring to the God that is said to have created the universe, and how are you defining him? Because truly, God could be anyone's definition, if you're not using a reference.

Now, as regards our resembling God, I'm telling you that a human can be created in God's image, even function like a little decision-making wind-up toy version of God, yet have NO COMPREHENSION of God's true depth and breadth and complexity.
Perhaps not.

But do you remember the reason the elohim, THEY, gave for kicking man out of eden?
Was it because we lacked depth, or because we actually knew more? For your consideration.

Obviously, we're NOT "like God," or else we could reason away our little problems to everyone's satisfaction, yes?[/Quote]
You would think man knowing good and bad wouldn't be that big of a deal. If being God means you can reason away the "little problems" why do you suppose God is personified to behave in particular ways?

We DO NOT possess unlimited reasoning.
Even levels of God possess limited reasoning.

If you are inquiring about the Hebrew God, he does not know everything. Though God's "higher self" does. The name for this was termed "en sof." Meaning: nothingness without end.

Like God, humans also know things to levels. Our brains and thought processes aren't homogeneous structures, and scientists and psychologists are reaffirming this consistently. A human may know something, but not know another thing only to discover another part of him does know it.
Think in terms of hierarchy of the brain.
God was called "elohim" because Hebrews believed their God was truncated. It's one of many reasons why the Hebrew term "elohim" exists.

I would say we're on the low-end of reasoning in this Universe, actually.
A single atom contains all the energy of the universe. The human brain is big enough, at some point brain mass isn't important, only how you use what you have to actually exceed your own limits.

The fucking Dinosaurs ruled this world for half a billion years WITHOUT fucking it up, WITHOUT destroying their environment.
Maybe, maybe not.
If you're half the paranormal conspiracy theorist I think you are.... :grin
....Then it is possible a species of dinosaur evolved to have a big brain. Scientific skeptics have mentioned that some types of raptors, given more time, would have developed considerably.
Look at it this way, dinosaurs had half a billion years, and humans only needed, what, 100 million years to evolve?

Does that mean that the Dinosaurs were closer to God's idea of perfection? They were fruitful, multiplied PRODIGIOUSLY, evolved into all sorts of wild configurations, really put on a show for God, I'm sure.
Were the souls of dinosaurs made in the image of the elohim? The Torah also never says God breathed his own breath of life and spirit into another creature besides humans.

Yet we think we're SMARTER than the Dinosaurs? We imagine ourselves SMARTER than Nature? Why is that?
"He who can destroy a thing controls it."

God created us this way. He WANTED us to DEFY Him. Do you know why?
Because he doesn't have anti-logic after all?
And if you consider that humans were made like God, does it not also stand to reason that God is also defiant? Or that defiance is required to live/survive.

Name a creature that isn't defiant and I'll tell you why they're extinct.

Beatnik Bob

Mar 16th, 2011, 5:36 PM

God's rationale is the PROOF that humans not only DON'T comprehend God, we CANNOT comprehend God.
The Tanakh also says "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

One of the best ways to honor God is to seek answers and question. If you put yourself in a place where you say something is utterly indiscernible, you are wasting your God-given human intelligence and the inquisitive mind, the disobedient mind, and the thoughtful mind.

Consider this metaphor:
God says Israel is his chosen son, after he wrestles with God. "Israel" means "he who wrestles with the almighty."

And God apparently liked this trait. Perhaps this goes along with your "boredom" theory.
God wants you to be like him and know the elohim. Even if the story, when played out, would seem that God is trying to prevent humanity from achieving this. God approves of us knowing right from wrong, despite the fact that it was the reason were were expelled from paradise.

Does God want humans to live stupidly in paradise or go out and do something with the abilities he gave us after himself?
God is called "he" in Torah because he is action. The masculine article is used for anything that is assertive. Was God a male? No. Could he be described as masculine? Yes. Even inanimate objects are often masculine or feminine in Hebrew.

calliope

Mar 17th, 2011, 3:23 AM

Hi, God.

Hi.

:pray:

calliope

Mar 17th, 2011, 3:27 AM

None of you in this thread are anymore "God" then your toenail or your asscrack is "you."

IMHO, of course. :D

Clearly, it's Cartesian. :;):

c7IvRqHaUAk

Bob

Apr 21st, 2011, 7:33 PM

The Word

Apr 22nd, 2011, 8:38 AM

Ok, fine, here goes. God, in the Bible, makes no claim to being all powerful nor perfect. What he does claim is to be holy, a state of being.

God is nothing but thoughts where all his plans were made before creation. His first creation was light energy, the power to put his plans into action, thus making this light his power to control everything. This light energy used the bodies of the prophets, the messian and us saints to speak for him because nothing can happen without this power.

It was religious people who added the holiness thing to God. He's the truth who created all good and evil but it was the flesh of man who was good and evil. All flesh will perish during this age and only truth will remain into the next age. Our next flesh will never be good and evil again.

Bob

Apr 22nd, 2011, 9:04 AM

For a God, you're not a very bright "light being". Holiness is a state of being such as light energy. No wonder it took you 29 years to become sinless.

Godsgifttomankind

Apr 22nd, 2011, 11:00 AM

Hello Cartesiantheater and thank-you for starting this thread,

One of the simplest answers to this question of why would an All Powerful God need to kill Jesus, relates to our own understanding of death itself. In the bigger picture it is about our own fear of death and the grip that that fear has upon each one of us.

God's desire is that each of us could overcome our fear of death and just as Christ did embrace death and take away it's sting!!

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 25:3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

25:4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.

25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

The Cross was turned from an object of fear and horror to an object of Victory through the actions of Christ.

The only power that DEATH has is that which exists within ones own mind.