Firearms for the budget minded survivalist

[pico]

Okay, the title says it all. I have a number of firearms, and have experienced some that I have since sold or traded, so I have a bit of experience on this topic. Hear me out on this, as many are new to firearms and with the economy are now finding their spending money rather limited.

I am a strong believer in the one gun for everything does not work. Would you buy a single flat head screw driver and say you have a tool set? Firearms are simply tools, and some are highly specialized for a specific task. Others are more useful for a variety of tasks, but do none extremely well. Anyway, I think it prudent to have a handgun, rifle, and shotgun. I am saying rifle, even though the broader term can mean rifle and/or carbine to many... but it is really a firearm that has a longer barrel approaching 20" and beyond. Carbines are shorter, and are typically going to be 16" in barrel length.

If you are on a tight budget of perhaps $500 - $600 to spend, then your choices are going to be limited. If you are a city dweller, then your spending should focus on firearms that are effective out to 200 yards, as long distance shots will not necessarily be a common thing for you. I would start with picking up the SKS, as this is a very good carbine. It reloads fast with 10 round stripper clips, and ammo is still somewhat cheap. You can likely find a Yugo SKS or Chinese Norinco SKS for under $300. The less you spend, the better. The leftover money can be applied towards a Romanian Tokarev handgun, which is a very rugged handgun that fires a fairly effective round.

If you are living in rural America, chances are you already have firearms. If not, then I suggest you buy a Mosin Nagant 91/30 or Mauser M98 8mm bolt action. These are highly effective and solid rifles. I would go with a Mauser if you can, as the action and bolt is stronger. Then, buy the same handgun.

If you have a bit more money to spend, then I would scrap the above picks. For urban dwellers, many like the scare factor with an AK 47 rifle. I would pass on the WASR AK 47s flooding the market. I recently traded for one, and have a dozen or so AK 47 rifles I have experience with to compare it to. The WASR looks nice at first, but the front sight is crap. Pass on these and get the Saiga 16" .308 carbine. These are true russian made AK 47 actions but they fire the much more powerful .308 or 7.62x51 Nato round. These will punch thru cinder blocks and cars, as well as a lot of concealment, making them a true battle carbine/rifle. Also, scrap the Takarev handgun and get a new used handgun that fires either .40 or .45 cal bullets. I am a fan of the .40 S&W and keep a Beretta 96 in the home for self defense.

A rural person can go with the exact same setup, but get the longer barrel version if you can find one. Otherwise, another fair option would be to get either a proven CETME clone or a Romanian PSL. The CETME will fire the same ammo as the Saiga, but the PSL will shoot the 7.62x54r round, which has a number of flaws, IMO.

The next step up would be to get a shotgun. Many might say the shotgun would be the first gun of the city dweller, but I disagree mainly because of ammo capacity and the fact that shotguns are a bit outdistanced for a number of shots beyond 75 - 100 yards. Anyway, choices are many with shotguns. You can actually have one shotgun and simply change barrels for the task you are performing. Long bird barrels are really only good for birds. Slug barrels can be found in 18" - 24" lengths, both with smooth and rifled bores. I would pass on buying sabot loads, which require a rifled barrel, since these rounds are so expensive. Getting a simple rifle sight slug barrel for slugs and buck shot is the way to go. I would keep the shotgun as simple as possible, to avoid maintenance issues down the road. I can highly recommend the Remington 870, with the Mossberg 500 coming in 2nd. Be sure to pick up the mag tube extensions that fit with your barrel length. Also, the 8700 can be much easier to shoot if you outfit it with a pistol grip stock with a heavy cushion for a butt plate.

If you are a smaller individual, as in most women I know, shooting a .308/7.62x51 rifle round might be a bit too much. I would suggest buying an AR 15 if you have the funds. Also, buy a stripped lower with a lower parts kit, so you can experience building one and learn where the parts lie. Also, you can then pick up an upper that can be somewhat specialized for what you plan to do with it. I suggest Adams as the upper. They sell piston uppers, which are far better than the original gas tube ARs out there. A complete setup with this move will likely run around $750 for the entire package, but these are really good. Otherwise, you should look at Bushmaster, then DPMS as solid brands.

Best of luck on your preps. There are many alternatives to the firearms listed in this post. I tried to focus on the novices on a budget, but if your budget does not have a ceiling limit, then by all means, pick alternatives.

[MHz]

For the city I would prefer a hunting sling-shot with various size (weight) lead/steel ammo. The next choice would be a .22 Luger with a custom silencer/barrel extension for the longer shots. A derringer that used .22 shorts would be a nice 'hide away piece'

I would opt for rock-salt for shotguns, reloading is much easier as you can mold your own shells simply by freezing salt water. The salt gets left behind so you might even be able to cast a slug that stays together to target.

For the urban environment could paintball guns be used to fire 'bb' sized projectiles in a smaller bore barrel? 1 canister of air would last 50 times longer than it does with regular ammo or just up the pressure and use the equivalent to a frozen paintball. nails with a few threads trailing might be the right ammo for accuracy at a distance.

How about a pellet pistol (.177) that shoots shells based on porcupine quill ? Not a killer but it would distract a person for a few moments.
As you can tell modest is from $6-60 for me.

[pico]

I do not consider pellet guns and paintball guns and slingshots firearms... but I suppose they could work. The .22 LR round is something I neglected, but I was thinking more about a more self defense weapon. As to a .22 Luger, I have an Erma long barreled one that is a total piece of shit. Having a threaded barrel with an extension is likely not going to improve accuracy much at all, if any. In fact, it is likely to hurt your accuracy, as your barrel and the barrel extension will have twists that may be different or may be misaligned. You would improve on velocity, but that would likely be it. Also, silencers to not improved your accuracy or velocity at all. Also, these are regulated items that require a $200 stamp tax and a 4-6 month waiting period. If you want a .22 derringer, look at buying an unregulated (ships right to your door) pre-1899 .22 handgun. Most of these were made for the .22 short, and even with modern loads, they function fine. I had a pair I traded off that you could probably find for around $100 or less each. Young American model by H&R.

If you are going to have a shotgun, get ammo that can stop aggressors with better reliability. #4 buck is great for 12 gauge shotguns, and #1 buck is pretty damn good for 20 gauge.

There is nothing wrong with pellet guns, as ammo is cheap and plentiful. You can hunt small game quietly without damaging the meat.

[MHz]

I see the part about the matching up. To do that properly a .22 rifle would have to be trimmed down and use the original barrel for the extension. Seems like a lot of work for the gain. Sooner or later any weapon is going to /break/wear out and without the ability to get around that surviving is a long downhill road in a situation that is geared towards being an extinction level event. That rifle barrel may end up being a blow-gun.

[GP100]

If you're on a budget -- I recommend doing what I'm about to do (I'm not necessarily on a "budget" ... more like a "wife budget").

First, get a good .357 revolver. ($600-700)

Then, get any type of good caliber hunting rifler. High accuracy, good range. ($600-700, maybe a lot cheaper)

I'm also thinking about a crossbow / compound bow.

[Marseyus]

I hate to say, but if were talking "budget" then an AR-15 is your best bet, you can find a used base model for CHEAP! and i say AR-15 for one VERY specific reason, customization. You can make an AR-15 effective from 25-yards all the way out to 200 with one load out. The ammo is EXTREMELY easy to find, and bulk ammo is cheap.

However if were talking total coverage then you want a medium caliber handgun to carry you to 25 yards, then you want a shotgun from 25-75 then a High Power rifle to carry you out further.

However my good ole fail safe is still a stock ar-15 with a 3x9 scope on top, and red dot on the non-dominant side.

The problem with converting ANY assault rifle to .308 ammo is cost. Yes i use .308 for bolt action, but i'm also not gonna start popping off rounds as fast as i can squeeze the trigger. your basic ar-15 round is cheap, and easy to find, decent .308 is $30 a box of 20. so each magazine in a converted ak or ar 15 is $30, so you have one in the gun, and a minimum of 4 on the hip = $150 of basic stock ar-15 would = $7 a clip so $35 a load out.

but the 2 best pieces of advice i can give about any firearm, budget or not is
1. MAKE SURE IT IS RELIABLE! you don't wanna cheap out on something like a cobra .380 to have the damn thing jam up when you need it. But there are plenty of BUDGET firearms that are still good.

Taurus
Hi-point
Mossberg
Winchester
Remington
Ruger
Savage
Browning

These are a few of my favorite brands that offer affordable and decent firearms. There are many more, but these are my choices when i budget shop.

And most importantly
Make sure your COMFORTABLE with the fire arm. If you don't like your fire-arm your less likely to shoot it, and less likely to train with it. When your comfortable with it, you'll take it to the range and train with it. You'll enjoy shooting it.

Make sure you like your firearm you'll never get good with something you hate.

[GP100]

Well, if you're shopping on a budget to buy a firearm for a SHTF situation, why would you want a complicated AR-15? Maintenance, cleaning, malfunction, breakability -- ouch!

If I'm on a budget I'm assuming I'm only buying one or two weapons. I want two weapons -- long and short range -- that are super reliable. A revolver and a scoped rifle.

[Marseyus]

Well, if you're shopping on a budget to buy a firearm for a SHTF situation, why would you want a complicated AR-15? Maintenance, cleaning, malfunction, breakability -- ouch!




Well like i said comfort, i'm comfortable with an ar-15, i'm experienced with an ar-15, i've been trained with one, and i know how to maintain one. You can't just buy a gun and expect it to always work whenever, a good gun owner takes care of his firearm, the same with cleaning, you should clean your firearms regularly no matter what type of firearm it is, breakability and malfunction? what are you going to throw it off a building then land on it to break your fall?

Doesn't matter what type of firearm you have you should always Clean, maintain, and take care of it. EVERY firearm malfunctions, you should know how to quickly function check and clear your firearm.

[katatz561]

Well, if you're shopping on a budget to buy a firearm for a SHTF situation, why would you want a complicated AR-15? Maintenance, cleaning, malfunction, breakability -- ouch!

If I'm on a budget I'm assuming I'm only buying one or two weapons. I want two weapons -- long and short range -- that are super reliable. A revolver and a scoped rifle.

try AK weapons their easier to maintain and if you have multiples the parts are usually interchangable, unless you buy something that was built in the czech republic then you're buying something with totally different pieces in it. anything from the SKS WASR and AK-47 lines are usually interchangeable in part and are able to use the same ammo.

[Yobihome]

If you're on a budget (like me), the cost of ammo is as important as the price tag of the weapon. And what if you want more than one weapon to arm wife, son or that friend who is not himself ready but will likely team up with you? Is durability and simplicity (therefore longevity) important?

The rounds that seem the likely cheap candidates are

5.52/.223 ($.24)
7.62x39 ($.23)
7.62x54r ($.19)

A quick check at Sportsmans Guide gave me those costs per round above. Oddly enough the big 54r is cheapest (surplus). Coincidentally, the most common rifle that uses that round is also one the cheapest and toughest rifles you can buy. The Russian Mosin Nagant, which Pico mentioned, can be purchased for $100 at Big Five out West. It's ugly but simple and rugged. It had to survive the temperature extremes of Russia after all. If you buy one it will be 60 to 80 years old and will likely last another hundred years. And at that price you can probably afford more than one for that unprepared friend or for parts.

The down side to the 7.62x54r is that the Mighty Mo is about the only rifle for that round. There are the PSL/Dragunov type semi-autos which could, I suppose, pass for a hard hitting assault rifle though the gun is more of a sniper design (long barrel). I've fired two Mosin Nagants and they both grouped tightly (though not accurately to the sights) which means the sights can be zero'd. I have not fired the Dragunov-type but conceptually it's a potent configuration if the weapon is good.

If cheap, Cheap, CHEAP is the watchword, the old Mosin Nagant is probably the answer.

[pico]

The 5.56/.223 ammo that is cheap is often the steel cased russian stuff with the cases coated in a lacquer. These are not good to buy if you have an AR, as it is very common to have constant feed and ejection problems with them.

I should have mentioned getting an AK 74, as the ammo for these is not all that common, but it is cheap as can be.

I have a PSL, and these are pretty good rifles. They are not assault rifles, as the magazines only hold 10 rounds. On top of that, they are huge compared to your normal AK 47/74. While the ammo is inexpensive for these rifles, you cannot really compare these to the .308.

The mauser and mosin are truly viable budget guns, as you can buy a mosin for no more than $150, then spend another $100 or so for ammo, and have a few hundred rounds for when TSHTF. Add around a hundred for a mauser and ammo. If you are in Kalifornia, you can own these rifles without too much concern... unlike the rigs you guys call AK47 'Ass'ault weapons.

If you are trying to arm many people, then you really need a much larger budget these days. When I started, I found a guy selling old Chilean Mausers in 7mm mauser and picked up 8 for around $1k. Since then, I have added other rifles in other calibers, and try to hold a minimum of 1k rounds per rifle. It is expensive, but if you choose a rifle, I find it is best to buy by the case online, as some places like ammoman.com include the shipping in the quoted price. $220 will get you 1,000 rounds of 7.62x39, and you can get 1000 rounds of 7.62x51 German DAG ammo delivered for around $450.

[blackbird357]

nice post very informative

[one14am]

Guns are not very effective without ammo. If shit really hits the fan ammo will disappear fast from the shelves and your stockpile will disappear much faster than you want. How many of you have the capability of making your own. That is a key part to think about..

[MHz]

Then we would be back to throwing rocks. I'm going to get one that has a string attached, just in case I need to throw it more than once in a hurry.

[pico]

Nothing wrong with getting reloading equipment. Most on tight budgets do not have the funds nor the location to reload. That said, you need the firearm before the ammo, unless you buy ass backwards like I do sometimes. Anyway, getting a mosin means you have enough ammo for a handgun as well... so think about it.

These days, it is really hard to get the basics in your possession for modest amounts of money. With that said, make a list and work your way down as funds permit.

[Abyssal_Worm]

A true survivalist isn't looking at battle rifles, but instead looks into getting a shotgun and low caliber rifle. Both with the intention of using for hunting purposes. Battle rifles are useless for hunting as they do terrible damage to the game thus leaving you with significantly less meat to consume.

Someone on a budget would do well to invest in a single shot shot shotgun and a .22 rifle.

People preparing for The End Of The World As We Know It (TEOTWAWKI for those who frequent survivalblog), consult the members of your group. Everyone needs a standardized caliber so that ammunition can be wasily shared in the heat of the moment. Ideally you want everyone to have the same type of rifle, but sometimes that is not possible. Agree on a standardized caliber and then go from there. 7.62 x 39 is cheap, effective, and easy to find in any gun store. 7.62 x 51 is solid, but sometimes harder to find in supply.

If you are looking for guns to use in survival situations, I would reccomend investing in this order:
.22 rifle; cheap gun, even cheaper ammunition. You can shoot 500 rounds and only be out ~$5-7.

Shotgun; .410 isn't a bad caliber for small game, larger game you are better off with 12 gauge and it is useful for handling two legged predators. Varying types of ammunition for shotguns need to be considered. For practice use bird-shot at first, then work up to the heavier loads.

Battle rifle; AK-47s, SKS, Mosin Nagant rifles are fairly cheap and effective.

[pico]

A true survivalist isn't looking at battle rifles, but instead looks into getting a shotgun and low caliber rifle. Both with the intention of using for hunting purposes. Battle rifles are useless for hunting as they do terrible damage to the game thus leaving you with significantly less meat to consume.

Someone on a budget would do well to invest in a single shot shot shotgun and a .22 rifle.

People preparing for The End Of The World As We Know It (TEOTWAWKI for those who frequent survivalblog), consult the members of your group. Everyone needs a standardized caliber so that ammunition can be wasily shared in the heat of the moment. Ideally you want everyone to have the same type of rifle, but sometimes that is not possible. Agree on a standardized caliber and then go from there. 7.62 x 39 is cheap, effective, and easy to find in any gun store. 7.62 x 51 is solid, but sometimes harder to find in supply.

If you are looking for guns to use in survival situations, I would reccomend investing in this order:
.22 rifle; cheap gun, even cheaper ammunition. You can shoot 500 rounds and only be out ~$5-7.

Shotgun; .410 isn't a bad caliber for small game, larger game you are better off with 12 gauge and it is useful for handling two legged predators. Varying types of ammunition for shotguns need to be considered. For practice use bird-shot at first, then work up to the heavier loads.

Battle rifle; AK-47s, SKS, Mosin Nagant rifles are fairly cheap and effective.


AW... are you a hunter, because battle rifles fire .30 cal bullets. The .308 is a very popular hunting round, which is what all of my battle rifles fire. On top of that, the round most responsible for the highest number of deer fatalities is likely to be the 30-30, which is far more destructive than the 7.62x39 round... which can also be used to hunt deer and other medium sized game.

What is more destructive... a 12 gauge shotgun slug or a .308? I can tell you that my sabot slugs for my 12 gauge shotgun weigh twice as much as my .308 hunting bullets, and are far more destructive on tissue.

I do agree that shotguns are a critical component, but this thread is more designed around what an unprepared person can buy for little cash, which does not leave much room for many firearms. I agree a .22 and shotgun are a critical piece, but if you need to choose 1 firearm, then it is a tough call.

The first firearm I ever purchased was a shotgun, but I was duck hunting on a daily basis and needed this firearm. A shotgun is a great home defense firearm... possibly the best, but its range is limited to about double that of a handgun. The SKS will effectively double or triple your range, and a rifle will let you take game out past 500 yards if it is tuned right and you do your part.

[Anarch]

I have a Springfield shotgun bought for 90 bucks.

Thats my budget.

I agree that one gun does not handle all situations. The shotgun is good for home defense but I can't discretely carry a shotgun in public. I'd like to pick up a hand gun for 299 or less.

And for me it is only about self defense in the worst situation. NOt target shooting, not hunting, but life saving.

ANy ideas?

[pico]

For $299, you might be able to get a Tokarev handgun and perhaps 500 rounds of ammunition. Another option is to find a police trade in .357 revolver or perhaps a used Beretta 92F. Lastly, the soviet designed Makarov is a fantastic handgun that is found in 9x18 or .380. I would get one in .380 if you can find it, as the ammo might be pricier but can be found a bit easier than 9x18.

If you are handy with metal working tools, you can also try and find a blackpowder reproduction revolver that has a steel (not brass) frame. You can often convert these through a cylinder swap to fire brass cased cartridges of a similar caliber. An example is a blackpowder gun that fires round ball .44-.45 ammo. You can get a cylinder that fires .45 colt ammo, but you need to be sure the ammo is blackpowder or a seriously reduced smokeless load.

[Deathfire]

No disrespect to American/Canadians at all with the following post, but sheesh you guys and ya guns! Its odd to me, as someone from the UK to hear how easy it is for some of you to get guns/ammunition/have training.

Think in Europe we'd skip the gun shooting and go straight for the rock throwing...that or all sit down for a nice cuppa post apocalyptic nuclear irradiated tea and discuss our issues.

On the top of my head I couldn't think of where you'd go in the UK to buy a gun let alone get a hold of one-short of rifle/shooting clubs which are no where near as prolific as the states. Ah well the shit hits the fan and i'll retreat to the sunny ole Isle of Man ;).

[Abyssal_Worm]

AW... are you a hunter, because battle rifles fire .30 cal bullets. The .308 is a very popular hunting round, which is what all of my battle rifles fire. On top of that, the round most responsible for the highest number of deer fatalities is likely to be the 30-30, which is far more destructive than the 7.62x39 round... which can also be used to hunt deer and other medium sized game.

What is more destructive... a 12 gauge shotgun slug or a .308? I can tell you that my sabot slugs for my 12 gauge shotgun weigh twice as much as my .308 hunting bullets, and are far more destructive on tissue.

I do agree that shotguns are a critical component, but this thread is more designed around what an unprepared person can buy for little cash, which does not leave much room for many firearms. I agree a .22 and shotgun are a critical piece, but if you need to choose 1 firearm, then it is a tough call.

The first firearm I ever purchased was a shotgun, but I was duck hunting on a daily basis and needed this firearm. A shotgun is a great home defense firearm... possibly the best, but its range is limited to about double that of a handgun. The SKS will effectively double or triple your range, and a rifle will let you take game out past 500 yards if it is tuned right and you do your part.

Where are you hunting? 500 yards is a lot of real estate that most people are not going to find outside of a farmers plowed field. Typically people do their hunting in forests which means range is going to significantly lower. Anything beyond 30 yards is likely going to be difficult to spot due to brush, let alone hit. At close range...an SKS is not going to be helpful. Especially when you have to chamber a round. Unless you are going to sit there with one hot in the chamber...never a safe or wise thing to do.

As for a budget minded buyer...ARs are qutie expensive. Someone who is willing to shop around and visit gun shows/auctions can easily get two or three non-AR weapons for the price of one AR. Bear in mind that people will need to buy spare magaxine for the AR. It always happens. Depending on the weapon...it can get expensive quickly.

People new to firearms should do the sensible thing and start off simple and then build up to more complex weaponry. Pistols, single/double barreled shotguns, low caliber rifles are wise beginning points. ARs and high caliber bolt taction rifles should be sought after the user has become familiar with firearms.

[pico]

I would not shoot at something at that range unless I had to, but for mule deer, .308 works fantastic.

I did not recommend the AR for a person on a budget, as I cannot built one with even inexpensive parts for under $500.

The SKS has a safety, which can be utilized. I would not hesitate to hunt with a SKS if I had to. A mosin Nagant or Mauser would be far superior for hunting, but hey, people hunt with semi-auto rifles all the time and are successful in their hunts.

Out west, you have far more open fields of view. Being able to take longer shots pays off, as the animals can not notice your scent at greater ranges. On top of that, the .308 is far superior in that the hunting bullets out there have fantastic performance and enough energy to go deep. I have seen recovered bullets that have stayed intact but mushroomed out substantially.

One other option I did not discuss, but it warrants noting due to easy reloading, is a rossi .44 magnum lever action with a short barrel. These guns are very handy, light, and the .44 magnum is no slouch. On top of that, I bought mine in stainless steel used for around $300. You could get one perhaps in .357 magnum and then acquire a .357 revolver and have cartridge commonality. If it worked with cowboys, I do not see why it would not work as a bugout weapon selection... although reloading might be a bit time consuming compared to more modern options out there.

Abyssal Worm... I understand where you are coming from. In Louisiana where I grew up, dense wooded areas made distance shots unavailable. On top of that, many areas restricted deer hunting to shotgun slugs only... which eventually expanded to handgun hunting. The point I am trying to make is if a person has only one firearm, it needs to be able to handle both self defense and hunting, not necessarily in that order of importance. If a person is armed only with a shotgun, or handgun even, they are very much at risk from modern day 'assault weapons', should they ever be encountered in a hostile situation. If you are prepping for the worst, you need to be able to reach out at least as far as your opponent has the capacity to accurately target you. The .308 is the only option.

[Reef Badlaw]

No disrespect to American/Canadians at all with the following post, but sheesh you guys and ya guns! Its odd to me, as someone from the UK to hear how easy it is for some of you to get guns/ammunition/have training.

Think in Europe we'd skip the gun shooting and go straight for the rock throwing...that or all sit down for a nice cuppa post apocalyptic nuclear irradiated tea and discuss our issues.

On the top of my head I couldn't think of where you'd go in the UK to buy a gun let alone get a hold of one-short of rifle/shooting clubs which are no where near as prolific as the states. Ah well the shit hits the fan and i'll retreat to the sunny ole Isle of Man ;).

Yeah, I have lots of friends in the UK who I'd worry about if the SHTF. Bows and crossbows aren't that readily obtainable either. I'd always keep my eyes open for sales-of-shotguns, if possible. Hopefully 2... as you can saw-off the barrel of one of 'em for urban intimidation, and use the other for hunting.

[katatz561]

Guns are not very effective without ammo. If shit really hits the fan ammo will disappear fast from the shelves and your stockpile will disappear much faster than you want. How many of you have the capability of making your own. That is a key part to think about..

well when that happens and noone has the ability to make ammo start making improvised weapons.:pirate:

[pico]

Okay... recently I was able to acquire a Polish Tantal AK 74. This has the same basic design as any AK 47, except this fires the more accurate 5.45x39 round. The bullets are a bit over 50 grains, whereas the 7.62x39 bullet the AK 47 uses are typically 122-124 grains. It closely mimics the 5.56 Nato round, except it is better at causing tissue damage when compared to the older 55 grain bullet used in Vietnam. The modern 62 grain penetrator bullet is going to beat it, at least in penetration.

Anyway, any AK 74 has my vote as the top SHTF firearm. This is not a round that will be common when things go bad. Magazines are a bit more expensive for this gun versus the AK 47, and are not too common at the moment. The thing that makes this weapon move up on the list over the SKS and the AK 47 now is the ammo being cheap and not hard at all to find. I bought close to 2,500 rounds of ammo for under $300. Some places sell this same amount for under $250. While the rifle will cost roughly the same for an entry level AK 47, and magazines be a bit more at first, you will more than makeup the price in your first ammo procurement.

On top of that, mine was shooting 2" groups at 100 yards. I have heard people getting sub 8" groups at 400 yards, and can easily hit man sized targets at 800 yards (although at that range I think the energy left must be relatively small. Mine does not have a scope rail on the side of the receiver, but the iron sights are marked out to 1,000 yards. Also, the gun is threaded and has a muzzle brake, which probably reduces the flash signature somewhat. The buttstock folds to the side, and is much more comfortable to shoot compared to the Yugo M70 underfolders folding the market these days.

I picked this up in a trade, and feel I came away on the better end.

Another firearm I picked up and would suggest people getting is the KelTec Sub 2000 in 9mm. The 9mm is found everywhere, and this carbine folds in half and uses common Glock 17/18/19 magazines. It would make an excellent BOB firearm, and should be given much consideration if one is also considering the AR 7 survival rifle.

[Anarch]

This may not be in everyones price range but if it is, Go Russian!

The vid is freaking epic.

WOoUVeyaY_8

[pico]

That is in no ones price range, as it is full auto for a shotgun.

[Anarch]

Still it is freaking sweet!

The dude in the vid reminds me of a gun runner I used to know. A Cool dude to hang out with for five minutes....scary after ten minutes.

[pico]

If you want to have something close to what that gun offers, get a saiga 12 with full capacity magazines. I have seen a show on the history or military channel a while ago on those AA shotguns. They can be remotely controlled and fitted on drones and vehicles... the problem is they need a belt feed system for this setup.

[Anarch]

Naah I'm good with my Springfield. Something like that AA12 would only get some kind of remote drone sent to kill my ass from 10,000 feet up. Still DROOOllll I wanna fire that bad boy!

[oldsoldier]

for economy and not bad weapons.

Hipoint handguns 9mm around $140. .45 ACP around $160.

Mossberg .22 auto ( walmart) $119.

Keltech sub2000 9mm carbine $300.

You can also get some pretty good black powder rifles starting at $89.

[pico]

I picked up a sub2000 9mm not too long ago that accepts the Glock 17 magazines. This gun has a lot going for it, as you can easily put it in a backpack. I have not been impressed with the hi point handguns, but have their 995 9mm carbine. I am not too impressed with it either, but I think the reason is I have a pair of Beretta cx4 storm carbines in .40 S&W and find the carbines much better made... but they should be for 3 times the price.

While you can buy those guns new for low prices, I think the soviet era handguns like the makarov and tokarev are far better built handguns.... just my $0.02 worth.