Ancient Nuclear Warfare?

[GamerGal]

When the first atomic bomb exploded in New Mexico, the desert
sand turned to fused green glass. This fact, according to the
magazine Free World, has given certain archaeologists a turn.
They have been digging in the ancient Euphrates Valley and have
uncovered a layer of agrarian culture 8,000 years old, and a layer
of herdsman culture much older, and a still older caveman culture.
Recently, they reached another layer of fused green glass.

I just uh, digitally found a book, on this. Interesting that they found sheets of fused glass. Not formed by lightning as that causes very specific web like features in sand.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ancientatomicwar/esp_ancient_atomic_04.htm#analisys of libyan

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ancientatomicwar/esp_ancient_atomic_07.htm

The story begins when a layer of radioactive ash was found in Rajasthan, India.



It covered a three-square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur. The research occurred after a very high rate of birth defects and cancer was discovered in the area.



And of course we all know the story from India ten times the length of the Illiad that covers an ancient alien nuclear war on Earth.

I mean wow. What explanation for the sheets of glass? Meteor? No craters found. Lightning? As said it forms patterns not flat sheets. Any one else ever read/heard/saw any thing about this?

[ruiner4u]

maybe the squid-people will find radioactive soil when they dig up Japan in fifty thousand years..

[lycanox]

Just the result of cosmic impacts.

[GamerGal]

What kind? No crators. They used satellite scans of the Libyian desert and found none in the corresponding areas where the stange glass was found.

[Bob]

Try to look at it like this, look at everything humanity has accomplished with only 400 years of science. Imagine a culture with 2000 years of uninterrupted science, what do you think they could accomplish? The idea of a nuclear war destroying a human civilization 10,000 years ago is easy to believe and a logical chain of events.

[lycanox]

Not all impact events cause craters


Nuclear technology is a very complex science. And it takes an whole industry to build a bomb. While we never have found any indications of previous civilizations functioning on such level.

[Fut004]

Not all impact events cause craters
Not all asteroids/comets hitting the Earth's atmosphere cause craters, but I'm pretty sure that all impacts from space cause craters, especially the ones that would be large enough to wipe out entire cultures of people.



Nuclear technology is a very complex science. And it takes an whole industry to build a bomb. While we never have found any indications of previous civilizations functioning on such level.

This is where I get hung up on the whole idea.
Sure some Ancients built some impressive structures, things that we can't really figure out these days. But they were all made with stone and dirt (for the most part). If they had the technology to create a Nuclear Bomb, wouldn't they have needed reactors and factories and shit? Where are all these hidden?

[Anarch]

here yall go, have a youtube vid on the subject

kA0-dSY7890



Enjoy

[Bob]

Not all impact events cause craters


Nuclear technology is a very complex science. And it takes an whole industry to build a bomb. While we never have found any indications of previous civilizations functioning on such level.

that's why they call it "being wiped out". No trace of our civilization would be expected to last more than a thousand years.

Give mankind 4-600 years to study and they will come up with atomic theory, build bombs, use bombs ect... just like now.

[lycanox]

Not quite.

Science does not reset each time an civilisation end. but gets mostly passed to the next civilisastion. Or those closeby.

The current scientific process for example, started in Greece and the Roman empire.
Got passed to the ottoman empire after those civilisastions collapsed.
And the ottoman empire passed it later on to Europe. Which merged it with their technology, and bits they collected during their trips to amerika and Asia.
And later passed on former colonies and neighborhood nations after the European empires collapsed.

This results in more than 2000 years of scientific development. Where each generation has improved the ideas of the former. Not just 600 years.


And it is safe to say that an civilization that invented nukes. Would also have discovered electricity, computers and lots of other modern stuff to make the bomb possible. Yet we have found no trace of these kind of technologies.
Especially something as simple as plastics, would leave its traces.

We have found traces, of cultures that build only the occasional fire. Its thus extremely unlikely that we would miss one as advanced as ours.

[TC]

If a weapon of this magnitude was developed, you would most assuredly find some remnant of that kind of technology left, the casing steel is machined to tolerance, and the metallurgy would demand advanced foundries to produce it. In any given era of our short history, we only have basic ceramics and basic metal works, nothing has been found to suggest anything beyond this level.

[GamerGal]

Unless they nuked each other to death and 8000 years later we had little left in evidence. There is some "Civilization Gone" number that explains if all humans just disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't even take a thousand years before nature reclaimed every thing. And depending on earthquakes/other natural disasters only another thousand or so before every building was leveled. So add a few thousand years between nuking and humans rediscovering illness isn't caused by demons... I wonder how much would really me left.

[lycanox]

Actually plastics would still exist after thousands of years.
Nuclear material that remains from nuclear technology would still be highly radioactive after thousands of years.
Mines, being protected by the very ground they are found in. Would also be expected to survive thousands of years.

Any civilizational capable of advanced technology would be pretty well spread geographically to retrieve the needed materials. And be free to conquer large parts of the world. And thus spread its traces over a large part of the world.

The amount of destruction needed to completely wipe out such nation to such degree that no traces exist anymore. Does not even exist today. Which means that we would always find some forgotten colonies or town that was not worth nuking. Or an piece of trash they left behind while crossing an dessert. Or an ship that sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

Yet none of these were ever found.

[Fut004]

Any civilizational capable of advanced technology would be pretty well spread geographically to retrieve the needed materials. And be free to conquer large parts of the world. And thus spread its traces over a large part of the world.

The amount of destruction needed to completely wipe out such nation to such degree that no traces exist anymore. Does not even exist today. Which means that we would always find some forgotten colonies or town that was not worth nuking. Or an piece of trash they left behind while crossing an dessert. Or an ship that sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this subject, but this post was somewhat annoying. You concocted an idea of these civilizations in your head, then disproved the idea that you came up with on your own.

[lycanox]

How exactly?

[Fut004]

How exactly?

Well, you came up with one idea that you think makes sense, and that's all you'll consider.

What if the ancient civilization was so technologically advanced because it stayed in on area? They were so focused on advancing themselves that they didn't bother expanding their territory.

[lycanox]

Well, then they would have ran out of resources way before reaching the scientific level needed for nuclear tech. Think for example Iron ore, clay for bricks, oil. And there are only so many locations certain rare metals can be found.

And technology itself tends to spread. Civilizations close to the highly advanced technology would trade technological advanced stuff for resources. Learn the technology itself from copying the civilization or are likely at the verge of discovering themselves anyway.

And offcource any civilization that has a thing for science is curious. And will set out to explore the world.

[Bob]

we created an atomic bomb with chalk, blackboards and slide rules. For those of you looking for remains of an ancient civilization look up Michael Cremo. As far as passed knowledge is concerned, we only have a tiny fraction of the knowledge left from the Greeks and Romans and the Egyptians compared to the vast amount of info that they possessed. Thanks again Christianity for the burning of the Library of Alexandria. By the way...plastic burns so I wouldn't expect that to survive a planetary catastrophic event.

[Bob]

"The amount of destruction needed to completely wipe out such nation to such degree that no traces exist anymore. Does not even exist today. Which means that we would always find some forgotten colonies or town that was not worth nuking. Or an piece of trash they left behind while crossing an dessert. Or an ship that sunk to the bottom of the ocean."

*************

All you have to do is kill all of the people, radioactive materials get buried along with cities, what gets wet rots, rusts or otherwise is wrecked. This is easy to imagine I can't see the problem. A species of animal, human anatomically identical to us have lived on this planet for 100,000 years at a minimum. I'm supposed to believe that only in the last 6000 years we learned to write and speak and store information? Nonsense!

[lycanox]

we created an atomic bomb with chalk, blackboards and slide rules. For those of you looking for remains of an ancient civilization look up Michael Cremo. As far as passed knowledge is concerned, we only have a tiny fraction of the knowledge left from the Greeks and Romans and the Egyptians compared to the vast amount of info that they possessed. Thanks again Christianity for the burning of the Library of Alexandria. By the way...plastic burns so I wouldn't expect that to survive a planetary catastrophic event.

Nuclear power requires a lot more than just know how.

Even if we openly thought people how to construct a nuclear bomb, they would never been able to build one.
As they lack the technology to mine and refine uranium. Or achieve the precision explosions needed to reach critical mass.

Its as absurd as believing caveman have a space program and have already build campfires on Pluto.



All you have to do is kill all of the people, radioactive materials get buried along with cities, what gets wet rots, rusts or otherwise is wrecked. This is easy to imagine I can't see the problem. A species of animal, human anatomically identical to us have lived on this planet for 100,000 years at a minimum. I'm supposed to believe that only in the last 6000 years we learned to write and speak and store information? Nonsense!
Regardless of how old an civilization is. If it exist, we will find traces of it.
We after all have a fossil record going back to the beginning. And an advanced civilization would definitely build stuff that would last the sands of time.

And science speeds up the more advanced it becomes. As the more it improves the peoples lives, more resources can be used for science. In the first thousands of lives. We simply lacked the safety and security to develop ourselves at a rapid speed. So scientific advancement went at a crawl.

[Bob]

Nuclear power requires a lot more than just know how.

Even if we openly thought people how to construct a nuclear bomb, they would never been able to build one.
As they lack the technology to mine and refine uranium. Or achieve the precision explosions needed to reach critical mass.

Its as absurd as believing caveman have a space program and have already build campfires on Pluto.



Regardless of how old an civilization is. If it exist, we will find traces of it.
We after all have a fossil record going back to the beginning. And an advanced civilization would definitely build stuff that would last the sands of time.

And science speeds up the more advanced it becomes. As the more it improves the peoples lives, more resources can be used for science. In the first thousands of lives. We simply lacked the safety and security to develop ourselves at a rapid speed. So scientific advancement went at a crawl.

You give us far, far, more respect than we deserve.

[GamerGal]

He has a lot of faith in humanity doesn't he? So many mysteries we can't solve but he's sure we would find proof? What if we have? The green sand glass sheets?

[lycanox]

That alone is not evidence for a nuclear attack.

[TC]

We have several sites in the world where non metallic ( iron/ nickel free ) small asteroids had low altitude explosions, in other words they didn't create a crater, but had a huge radius of intense heat and pressure at the earths surface and these types of large meteor contained quartz-rich surficial eolion with silica sand, the base material of glass.

Even comets also rarely survive the distance through the atmosphere, as their make up is a mixture of ice, dust and stony material, but none the less have an enormous blast radius, similar to the Tunguska event.

This isn't a counter to the topic argument, but it is a valid point to conceder.

[Fut004]

We have several sites in the world where non metallic ( iron/ nickel free ) small asteroids had low altitude explosions, in other words they didn't create a crater, but had a huge radius of intense heat and pressure at the earths surface and these types of large meteor contained quartz-rich surficial eolion with silica sand, the base material of glass.

Completely valid point, TC. We know that such explosions do happen, and they're usually very large (like that Russian one that leveled a whole forest). Just out of curiosity though, would such an explosion cause high levels of Radiation?

[TC]

Completely valid point, TC. We know that such explosions do happen, and they're usually very large (like that Russian one that leveled a whole forest). Just out of curiosity though, would such an explosion cause high levels of Radiation?


Super rare, from the studies I've looked at. There have been several impact sites that had trace amounts, but nothing like a fission bomb.

[Fut004]

Super rare, from the studies I've looked at. There have been several impact sites that had trace amounts, but nothing like a fission bomb.

So you'd say that such impacts causing enough radiation for people's hair and finger nails to fall out a couple days after the explosion would be extremely unlikely?

[TC]

Well to be honest, I haven't read anything regarding the radioactive find. So I have no explanations for it or say what caused it.

So to answer the above, yeah vary unlikely..

I did read a study of the lonar crater that was listed in this thread, as its the only one of its kind in a basalt formation. It contains transform plagioclase, that only comes from unimaginable pressure, as well as shatter cones. This is classic meteor impact. You can Google several studies by valid research regarding this impact zone. And I don't think its has any radioactive residues.

That is if we are using this impact as an example of a bomb crater. Heres a link to a short geologic study regarding the material found there.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/180/4088/862

[Bob]

That alone is not evidence for a nuclear attack.

True, but it certainly IS evidence of a nuclear something.

[lycanox]

Not necessary. It only means sand has been heatened to a certain degree.

[doomngloom]

ok - daft question of the day

Is it all possible that there was a really really ancient civilisation once upon a time?

How about some of the brighter, smaller dinosaurs? (stop chuckling at the back ;-))

My train of thought being that if the advanced civilisation was ancient enough, there would be nothing left of it after 60/ 70 million years.

Even if dinosuars weren't as advanced as us, they could still have had language, clothing, tools, habitats etc - all of which we wouldn't be able to trace after this amount of time?

Even if it's a silly theory I kind of like the idea of velociraptor in his pin stripe suit popping down the office :-)

[TC]

Take a look at your geological records, countless events that changed the face of the mother earth, asteroids, volcanic eruptions on an unimaginable scale, ice ages and natural disasters have brought live on this planet to a near standstill.

Its only with the advent of the Holocene period ( the last 12,000 years) that mankind has flourished, and any other species prior to this would have had to contend with those world changing events. We have the means to study our past, and so far we have categorized the steps that human kind have archived since modern man first emerged.

We date this with artifacts, dwellings, tools, and art. And our periods are classed with the use of metals, and so far, we have not found documented proof that higher technology ( advanced enough to build a bomb) existed, at least in the classic sense of archeology.

Any refined alloy would still remain after millions of years, or synthetics that aren't biodegradable for that matter, at least one piece of evidence that shows the existence of a prior race of intelligence.

And this is why established science is subjective to peer reviewed confirmation, to lift us out of the myth and legend perspective, and move us into the world of factual reality.

[Fut004]

ok - daft question of the day

Is it all possible that there was a really really ancient civilisation once upon a time?

How about some of the brighter, smaller dinosaurs? (stop chuckling at the back ;-))

My train of thought being that if the advanced civilisation was ancient enough, there would be nothing left of it after 60/ 70 million years.

Even if dinosuars weren't as advanced as us, they could still have had language, clothing, tools, habitats etc - all of which we wouldn't be able to trace after this amount of time?

Even if it's a silly theory I kind of like the idea of velociraptor in his pin stripe suit popping down the office :-)

.......................................

















I really hope this was all just a joke.

[TC]

.......................................

















I really hope this was all just a joke.


Me toooo... I had visions of Raptor's sitting at Starbucks in Brooks Bros. suits, checking the morning stockbrokers reports. lol

[The Mule]

Me toooo... I had visions of Raptor's sitting at Starbucks in Brooks Bros. suits, checking the morning stockbrokers reports. lol

Or a Doc Velocityraptor tapping away at his keyboard

[doomngloom]

lol

not a joke as such but certainly tongue in cheek.

ah-well, the thought was fun for an hour or two

[TC]

lol

not a joke as such but certainly tongue in cheek.

ah-well, the thought was fun for an hour or two

Hey, have at it ..lol

"Its 12 o'clock at night, do you know where your T rex is?

[lycanox]

ok - daft question of the day

Is it all possible that there was a really really ancient civilisation once upon a time?

How about some of the brighter, smaller dinosaurs? (stop chuckling at the back ;-))

My train of thought being that if the advanced civilisation was ancient enough, there would be nothing left of it after 60/ 70 million years.

Even if dinosuars weren't as advanced as us, they could still have had language, clothing, tools, habitats etc - all of which we wouldn't be able to trace after this amount of time?

Even if it's a silly theory I kind of like the idea of velociraptor in his pin stripe suit popping down the office :-)
We would find traces. In fact, we have enough remains of dinosaurs to puzzle together how they lived.

In fact, we have fossils from even further back than that. So if there was an scientific advanced civilization. We would have found fossils of their technology.
Even at the worst case scenario. We would have found a layer of metals and other molecules that don't ad up with natural deposits.

[doomngloom]

We would find traces. In fact, we have enough remains of dinosaurs to puzzle together how they lived.

In fact, we have fossils from even further back than that. So if there was an scientific advanced civilization. We would have found fossils of their technology.
Even at the worst case scenario. We would have found a layer of metals and other molecules that don't ad up with natural deposits.

ah - I see.

Thanks for the reply although I'm still somewhat dissapointed lol!

all the best
rs

[James Random]

What kind? No crators. They used satellite scans of the Libyian desert and found none in the corresponding areas where the stange glass was found.

It was an asteroid hitting the earth that wiped out the dinosaurs. A celestial body roughly the size of France which impacted against our terrestrial ball with the force of ten thousand Nuclear weapons, creating a nuclear winter as such that the Sun would be powerless to penetrate it for centuries. This, I believe may be the answer to the ancient Glass.

For those professing Nuclear involvement of a prehistoric nature, I must impress upon you that there is no property in a nuclear explosion other than heat that would cause sand to fuse into glass, therefore we can assume that it was likely not a Nuclear Blast, but certainly a very powerful blast of some description - most likely asteroidal - whose massive heat caused the sand around that area to fuse, eventually to be covered up by the sands that later followed as the celestial body decayed. If radiation was present, this would not be an unusual hallmark of an asteroid striking the earth either, as any celestial body visiting us must invariably pass through a great band of radioactivity within our solar system.

[tahn1000]

any asteroid big enough to cause a "nuclear winter" of dust in the upper atmosphere, would choke all animal and plant life here on the surface. that's assuming the atmosphere wasn't blown off into space by the impact, or the planet blown apart.

that is why "an asteroid killed the dinosaurs" theory is so ridiculous.

[James Random]

any asteroid big enough to cause a "nuclear winter" of dust in the upper atmosphere, would choke all animal and plant life here on the surface. that's assuming the atmosphere wasn't blown off into space by the impact, or the planet blown apart.

that is why "an asteroid killed the dinosaurs" theory is so ridiculous.

During the nuclear winter there was no life at all. Whatsoever. However, the ashes of the impact later served to accelerate the regrowth of plant and animal life once again once photosynthesis could resume.

[lycanox]

any asteroid big enough to cause a "nuclear winter" of dust in the upper atmosphere, would choke all animal and plant life here on the surface. that's assuming the atmosphere wasn't blown off into space by the impact, or the planet blown apart.

that is why "an asteroid killed the dinosaurs" theory is so ridiculous.
There was also an super volcanic eruption at that time going in in India that dwarfed anything Yellowstone or Toba could come up with.

And such winters are not caused by the dust. But by certain chemicals released by the impact itself. Which depends on the chemical composition of the comet itself and the ground it hits. The Dino's had that bad luck that the area it landed in happened to be rich in chemicals that are prone to mess up the climate. Had it landed elsewhere. Dinosaurs might still have roamed the earth.

[James Random]

There was also an super volcanic eruption at that time going in in India that dwarfed anything Yellowstone or Toba could come up with.

And such winters are not caused by the dust. But by certain chemicals released by the impact itself. Which depends on the chemical composition of the comet itself and the ground it hits. The Dino's had that bad luck that the area it landed in happened to be rich in chemicals that are prone to mess up the climate. Had it landed elsewhere. Dinosaurs might still have roamed the earth.

I didn't say that winter was caused by the dust. I said that the fertilisation was caused by the dust. Please read posts thoroughly before embarrassing yourself.

[lycanox]

Which is why I wasn't quoting you.

[medicvet]

I think it's entirely possible that nukes have been used on earth..or some form of nuclear energy. But what form would it take? Why do we assume that because our civilization has developed a certain way that all civilizations have to have done it that same way? I'm just saying, think about it for a little while. They say we only use a small fraction of our brains..there is a story idea I have been kicking around for a while about people using the power of their brains to do things that we would say are "magical" with our technologically based society, but that could likely be explained logically, just not using terms we would be familiar with at all. Was thinking what if aliens taught people how to use parts of their brains to lift heavy objects, for instance, and what if people could fly using the power of their brains..what need would a society like that have for the wheel? Which would be a way of explaining how some ancient societies had no wheel, but advanced knowledge of how to contstruct large buildings.? All this is just speculation and for the sci fi department of course..unless it's true, that is. ;)

And if you want a really good sci fi book that covers a society that periodically forgets itself and starts from scratch, read Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. REALLY good book!

[TC]

It was an asteroid hitting the earth that wiped out the dinosaurs. A celestial body roughly the size of France which impacted against our terrestrial ball with the force of ten thousand Nuclear weapons, creating a nuclear winter as such that the Sun would be powerless to penetrate it for centuries. This, I believe may be the answer to the ancient Glass.

For those professing Nuclear involvement of a prehistoric nature, I must impress upon you that there is no property in a nuclear explosion other than heat that would cause sand to fuse into glass, therefore we can assume that it was likely not a Nuclear Blast, but certainly a very powerful blast of some description - most likely asteroidal - whose massive heat caused the sand around that area to fuse, eventually to be covered up by the sands that later followed as the celestial body decayed. If radiation was present, this would not be an unusual hallmark of an asteroid striking the earth either, as any celestial body visiting us must invariably pass through a great band of radioactivity within our solar system.

Umm an asteroid the size of France? There wouldn't be a planet left....

The one that hit Mexico (Chicxulub) was roughly 6 miles wide.....

[lycanox]

[QUOTE]I think it's entirely possible that nukes have been used on earth..or some form of nuclear energy. But what form would it take?
There isnt much different shapes it could take. As there are only a limited amount of ways to achive this.

Nevertheless. An civilisation that advanced. Would also have the gizmos we have today. So we wont see any wooden reactors, cannonbal nukes or other what do they call it, steampunk technikes. .



Why do we assume that because our civilization has developed a certain way that all civilizations have to have done it that same way? I'm just saying, think about it for a little while. They say we only use a small fraction of our brains..there is a story idea I have been kicking around for a while about people using the power of their brains to do things that we would say are "magical" with our technologically based society, but that could likely be explained logically, just not using terms we would be familiar with at all. Was thinking what if aliens taught people how to use parts of their brains to lift heavy objects, for instance, and what if people could fly using the power of their brains..what need would a society like that have for the wheel? Which would be a way of explaining how some ancient societies had no wheel, but advanced knowledge of how to contstruct large buildings.? All this is just speculation and for the sci fi department of course..unless it's true, that is. ;)

And if you want a really good sci fi book that covers a society that periodically forgets itself and starts from scratch, read Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. REALLY good book!
The 10 percent of our brain a pretty pointless idea. As while we do use only a part of our brain to actually think. We use the rest of the brain to analyze other impuls. Basic movement and other not directly to thinking related stuff.


Umm an asteroid the size of France? There wouldn't be a planet left....

The one that hit Mexico (Chicxulub) was roughly 6 miles wide.....
Not quite. But it would peel off most of the crust, melt down the rest and wipe out all life.

[Fut004]

I think it's entirely possible that nukes have been used on earth..or some form of nuclear energy. But what form would it take? Why do we assume that because our civilization has developed a certain way that all civilizations have to have done it that same way?

That's what I'm starting to think actually. The Ancients could have been "advanced" but in a different way than we are. We're advanced in Electronics mainly, who says that the Ancients weren't advanced in other "technologies" like magnetic or gravitational manipulation. If this were the case then we couldn't really expect to find all the gizmos and tech stuff that Lyca needs as evidence.

Besides, all the useful stuff that they made probably got collected by the aliens after their last big war over Earth. ;)

[lycanox]

That's what I'm starting to think actually. The Ancients could have been "advanced" but in a different way than we are. We're advanced in Electronics mainly, who says that the Ancients weren't advanced in other "technologies" like magnetic or gravitational manipulation. If this were the case then we couldn't really expect to find all the gizmos and tech stuff that Lyca needs as evidence.

Besides, all the useful stuff that they made probably got collected by the aliens after their last big war over Earth. ;)
And what does Magnetical or gravitational manipulation run on?
Steam? Cow Dung? And what are those machines made off? Wood?

Its nearly impossible to believe that an civilization just jumped to these futuristic technologies. While completely neglecting very logical in between stages like electricity. You would have sounded more realistic if you just claimed that they could do magic and we somehow forgotten the rituals.

In the mean time, we have even found evidence of campfires. The energy source of any earlier civilization. So even if there was some mystery technology, we would have found traces of it.

[Fut004]

And what does Magnetical or gravitational manipulation run on?
Steam? Cow Dung? And what are those machines made off? Wood?

You need a power source for your magnets? Interesting.

[doomngloom]

And what does Magnetical or gravitational manipulation run on?


#tigerblood?

:humpin:

[lycanox]

If you want to have any control over it. Yes.

And you would still be stuck with the question of why we never found any magnets. Or huge quantities of Iron.

If the machines were mainstream. We would have found them.
And if they weren't, they would likely not be advanced in it to a degree to explain nuclear weapons.

[tahn1000]

During the nuclear winter there was no life at all. Whatsoever. However, the ashes of the impact later served to accelerate the regrowth of plant and animal life once again once photosynthesis could resume.

if we are talking about the so-called "extinction event" which spelled the end of the reign of the dinosaurs NOT EVERYTHING DIED OFF WITH THEM therefore there was no "regrowth" of animal or plant life.

[lycanox]

Life on the planet however still had to grow back to the numbers and ecological stability there was before the impact. Thus there definitely was a regrowth.

[New Wine]

Maybe it was like nuclear energy, but made with something else. Didn't read all the posts, but saw magnetism mentioned.

Maybe there is an energy that is made up of particles or things that we have not figured out yet that got the same result without leaving as big an imprint. Just like if you give a 5yr old all the ingredients to make a cake...it does not mean they will be able to put it all together to make that cake without the instructions!

[lycanox]

Then we would have still discovered the potential of the bomb then investigating the science behind magnetics. Just like it was the science behind atoms that theorized the possibility of the bomb. This science is not likely to be available to previous cultures.

With large explosions, the above path of science first and bombs later, is nearly impossible to avoid. As it is safe to say that any person inventing the bomb by accident would not live long enough to explain to others how to replicate the explosion.

[Fut004]

As it is safe to say that any person inventing the bomb by accident would not live long enough to explain to others how to replicate the explosion.

Maybe that's exactly why we can't find evidence of it elsewhere. Thanks for joining our side of the argument.

[lycanox]

Then we would still have found evidence of the use of that technology which did not lead to explosions.

[Fut004]

Then we would still have found evidence of the use of that technology which did not lead to explosions.

The evidence of that technology was at ground zero, it's been vaporized. Have fun trying to dig it up.

[lycanox]

An highly advanced civilisation is never limited to just a couple of miles.

[Fut004]

An highly advanced civilisation is never limited to just a couple of miles.

Maybe so, but....


As it is safe to say that any person inventing the bomb by accident would not live long enough to explain to others how to replicate the explosion.

The only group of people who knew about this Nuclear-type technology, and whatever bizarre technology they used was vaporized when they accidentally set off their bomb.

Anyhow, all I'm trying to get at with all of this is that there's a lot of stuff going on in the Ancient past that nobody knows how to explain. For anybody to claim that they know for certain how things were back then is absurd. It's quite possible that Ancient Man had figured out a technology that was completely different from ours today (It would really help explain a tonne of various man-made structures around the entire planet).

[lycanox]

Maybe so, but....

The only group of people who knew about this Nuclear-type technology, and whatever bizarre technology they used was vaporized when they accidentally set off their bomb.
Which is very unlikely. As the technology needed to develop the bomb would have tickled down to the general population. And thus spread over a large area. Larger than an nuclear explosion can destroy.



Anyhow, all I'm trying to get at with all of this is that there's a lot of stuff going on in the Ancient past that nobody knows how to explain. For anybody to claim that they know for certain how things were back then is absurd. It's quite possible that Ancient Man had figured out a technology that was completely different from ours today (It would really help explain a tonne of various man-made structures around the entire planet).

We know for a good degree what our ancestors were up to thanks the the loads of archaeological evidence they left behind.
None show outside magic and such, any reason to believe they were tampering with powers we have no knowledge of.

And sure, the pyramids and such may reveal some interesting tricks in construction or transporting large stones we have yet to discover. But its not like they show any signs of welding torches or anything else more advance than the technology at hand at that period.

[Fut004]

And sure, the pyramids and such may reveal some interesting tricks in construction or transporting large stones we have yet to discover. But its not like they show any signs of welding torches or anything else more advance than the technology at hand at that period.

Welding torches for stone work? Way to prove that you don't really know what you're talking about.
I think we're done here.

[TC]

[


Not quite. But it would peel off most of the crust, melt down the rest and wipe out all life.


Well if you figure an impact crater is roughly 20 times the size of the object ( this can be + - by 30%) and if an object the size of France hit the earth,
( France being some 600 miles long and 500 wide) that would create a crater roughly 12,000 miles in width.... roughly the distance from Europe westward to the Pacific ocean...

I would assume there would be nothing left that resembled a planet.

[lycanox]

Welding torches for stone work? Way to prove that you don't really know what you're talking about.
I think we're done here.
Meant to type cutting torches.

But since you brought it up. Why would an advanced civilization use stones?



Well if you figure an impact crater is roughly 20 times the size of the object ( this can be + - by 30%) and if an object the size of France hit the earth,
( France being some 600 miles long and 500 wide) that would create a crater roughly 12,000 miles in width.... roughly the distance from Europe westward to the Pacific ocean...

I would assume there would be nothing left that resembled a planet.
It takes lots of force to have the entire planet splattered around at escape velocity.

Infact in history our planet has suffered a lot worse than France.

[Fut004]

Meant to type cutting torches.

But since you brought it up. Why would an advanced civilization use stones?

Cutting torches makes a little more sense. It's interesting to think that these Ancient people used stones so hard that we use Diamonds to cut them today, yet we're supposed to believe that they chipped away at them with other stones or copper wires... Don't you think?

It's also interesting to think that some of these stone formations are so precisely built (without mortar) that a sheet of paper cannot fit into the cracks between stones.

Who knows why they used stones to build these structures? Maybe they wanted to ensure that they would last thousands of years. Maybe they used stones for certain properties (many ancient stone formations have incredibly high magnetic energy, why is that?).

That's the whole point though, we don't know what they were up to, but the more we find the more it looks like we have no idea what happened in our Ancient past.

[lycanox]

Cutting torches makes a little more sense. It's interesting to think that these Ancient people used stones so hard that we use Diamonds to cut them today, yet we're supposed to believe that they chipped away at them with other stones or copper wires... Don't you think?
Each material has each own hardness. And can be cut with an material made from an stronger material. Using the correct techniques and enough time.


It's also interesting to think that some of these stone formations are so precisely built (without mortar) that a sheet of paper cannot fit into the cracks between stones.
That is a trick that does not require much science. And is already well understood.

It has something to do with rubbing an color on it. And than remove the unequally painted areas.



Who knows why they used stones to build these structures? Maybe they wanted to ensure that they would last thousands of years. Maybe they used stones for certain properties (many ancient stone formations have incredibly high magnetic energy, why is that?).
If they were planning to last. They would have used all tricks in the book.
Yet even at the obvious pride of the civilization projects. We see no use of technology.


That's the whole point though, we don't know what they were up to, but the more we find the more it looks like we have no idea what happened in our Ancient past.
Most of the stuff we are still guessing about is how the general poor population lived. Or small gaps in understanding in other fields.

An entire civilization developed to an level on par with ours. Is to big to escape unnoticed.

[Fut004]

I can understand being skeptical about things, but you really seem like you want to stop looking into the past. In your mind we know exactly how everything was done, and we know when.

I'm not sure how you explain some of the weird things from the ancient past (like massive cities found miles below the ocean, mechanical devices found from a time period where man supposedly had no idea of such things, or temples that seem to out date ancient man by thousands of years), but if you're happy ignoring these things, so be it.

[lycanox]

I am just not gullible.

There is no archaeological evidence and even the big mysteries of history don't point to an super advanced civilization.
So why should I assume it exists. Just because someone found some glass fragments in a desert. Of which natural explanations exist.

[Anarch]

I am just not gullible.



Only the most gullible types make these kinds of proclamations ;)

[TC]

Meant to type cutting torches.

But since you brought it up. Why would an advanced civilization use stones?



It takes lots of force to have the entire planet splattered around at escape velocity.

Infact in history our planet has suffered a lot worse than France.

Ok, I'll bite. Where does the earth have a scare ( crater) that is 12,000 miles in diameter? Thats the size of an ocean basin. And we have with todays technology the ability to map the the entire surface of the globe.

Something that big would still have its perimeter and profile, even after millions of years.

The largest asteroid crater that the science has so far confirmed is one mile under ice in Antarctica and has a crater diameter of 480 km. The asteroid itself was estimated to have had a diameter of 45 km.

At least show some valid proof that something the size of France hit the planet.

[pico]

Sounds like Mooo caca

[lycanox]

Ok, I'll bite. Where does the earth have a scare ( crater) that is 12,000 miles in diameter? Thats the size of an ocean basin. And we have with todays technology the ability to map the the entire surface of the globe.

Something that big would still have its perimeter and profile, even after millions of years.

The largest asteroid crater that the science has so far confirmed is one mile under ice in Antarctica and has a crater diameter of 480 km. The asteroid itself was estimated to have had a diameter of 45 km.

At least show some valid proof that something the size of France hit the planet.

How about the moon. And the impact that lead to its formation?

[sweetvelocity]

It has been theorized Sodom and Gomorrah were nuked or bombed in some way.I think That is why Lot's wife burned to a hard stony crisp and the bomb was followed by plague "radiation poisoning". The ground was not suitable to growing for many years "due to radiation"

[medicvet]

If you want to have any control over it. Yes.

And you would still be stuck with the question of why we never found any magnets. Or huge quantities of Iron.

If the machines were mainstream. We would have found them.
And if they weren't, they would likely not be advanced in it to a degree to explain nuclear weapons.

Okay, but what if like we tap into electricity via technology another civilization could have ley lines of magic they could tap into..there would be just as much knowledge involved, but of a kind we couldn't begin to comprehend..or maybe just barely begin to..think of quantum physics, and if you tried to explain it you couldn't, only a few can delve into it and begin to understand it, and yet, what if there is another philosophy/science that explains how to lift things..some kind of..force..no wait, I think that one's already been used..:cool14:

Or maybe it's all just us time tripping..but I think there are still aliens involved too. And my story idea is coming along nicely. ;)

[lycanox]

Well, lay lines are at the moment just pseudoscience. Which they wouldn't be if they were reliable or powerful enough to function as a energy source.

As for quantum physics. You need an fully developed scientific community to know it even exist. So you have a chicken and egg problem.

[MHz]

Well, lay lines are at the moment just pseudoscience. Which they wouldn't be if they were reliable or powerful enough to function as a energy source.

One condition that forever changed about 2500BC is the atmosphere from ground level up to the top of the clouds. With rainbows only mentioned post flood the tomes before that could have been the same 'mist' mentioned back in Ge.2. Combine that with greatly enlarged polar regions and the clout tops may only have been a mile or two above what would have been sea-level back the (400+ft lower than it is today) That also means the coldness of space could have been much closer to sea-level. If the ice-sheets were two miles tall the temp on their surface could have been much colder than the -40 to -60 that they see today.

All that to set this question up, under those conditions (100% humidity) and zones of our atmosphere that are much loer than they are today, ie ozone being close to the 2mile high mark where water vapor is already 0% because of the masses of cold upper air that only existed with giant ice-caps. That leads to Tesla versions of transmitting electricity where something the size of the pyramids was the power generator for the world and anything along those lay-lines could tap that power by using a pair of antenna that were the proper length.

[hobobone]

A great discussion i find here. Ive read most of this discussion and ive found compelling arguments in both directions.

Where we here before?.... What a deep question....Ive contemplated this at the early age of 12.

When we look at timelines we see problems.

The earth has supposedly been here for roughly 4.5 billion years. For sanity's sake, man has been here for about roughly 2 million years. The bible wrote around around 2 to 3 thousand years BC...

Lets face it there are large gaps in time here. If you look at Ezekiel's "Wheel within a Wheel", found in the bible, you will find many different explanations. I think no date is carved in stone, and i give the bible loose translation.

Ive often wondered if man hasnt been here before, and the possibility that either whatever was seen in Revelation's or Ezekiel, has in some way partially happened here before. Is it even possible that early man (not cave man) saw nuclear like destruction and labeled it as GOD?

[TC]

Granted the earth is billions of years old, but humanity as a producing species is roughly 30,000. Cave art is dated to around 28,000 years, tools some 15,000 years, habitat ( established multi dwelling) is in the neighborhood of 12,000 years. All of these established dating periods are the work of meticulous research that spans hundreds of years, and for the most part is accepted by reviewed science.

Part of this research is Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy used for the examination of archaeological artifacts. It covers both organic and inorganic materials that have been examined in solution and in the solid. it can identify sources of raw materials, verify artifact authenticity, delineate ancient technology.

So it stands to reason that some trace of an established high technology would be found somewhere in the vast field work of archeology! a nut, a washer, a screw, a piece of refined metal or synthetic materials would eventually turn up within the confines of this science.

Any past culture possessing this ability ( Nuclear) would leave a trace, but nothing is found anywhere that points to this advancement....and to suggest an alien race would nuke a struggling species one step out of the hunter/gatherer mode.... ridicules logic and common sense.

[MHz]

Old earth creation allows a person to add one zero to a base time of 4000BC. the end of day 1 would be six as it is the end of the day rather than the beginning. The earth having rotation and the sun producing light was 4,000,000,000BC Day 2 lasted from then until 400,000,000BC, in that space of time the earth cooled enough for water to exist as a liquid and as a vapor (white clouds) . The mist on the land would have been the first life, moss and the run-off would have started collecting in the lowest and hottest part of the crust. If a volcano was expelling CO2 then that is the first food. The last vid I saw on that process was a lot more complicated and quite unscientific in that it contradicts itself and makes assumptions that aren't valid. (like water will not make iron rust if oxygen is not added to the water. Water is H2O, it comes with a built in rusting agent.

As far as ancient stone structures are there should be two groups, some from 4,000 -2500 BC and that would be the handi-work of fallen angels. Prior to the 4,000BC date the construction would have been 40,000 BC and older by some margin. South America being the best preserved as they were constructed at higher elevations where erosion is at it's slowest. Egypt shows erosion on the Sphinx. The two links below are ancient structures that would be the 40,000 date, the constructor, Christ as a child growing up with God. These ancient structures would have seen Christ at about the age of 6 and all the various construction zones were like a day at the beach.

Here are a couple of links that show what we are left with today, they do not promote a young Christ as the builder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABPXvwevVA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xoGUg-nF6w&feature=fvsr

[hobobone]

I just watched a two hour " Secrets of the Dead" episode on PBS. It discussed carbon dating and nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. There are so many opinions on when the first man existed. But it is hard to argue with modern science. Its probably a good assumption that man is roughly 30,000 years old. But because i always question everything, im not sure timelines can be extremely accurate. I always ask, What happened for those millions of years prior to the cave man?... But i do agree with TC in that, shouldnt we have found something, like a nut or bolt. Something concrete and conclusive.

Thanks for the youtube links MHz, Ive known about Puma Punku. The craftsmanship is fascinating. I read "Chariots of the Gods" when i was a kid. I also watched the movie. Ive read other books covering the same subjects as "Chariots of the Gods". I also watched this tv show with Lenard Nimoy called "In Search Of"...Christ as the builder is interesting, Ill be pondering that now.

Ok ive got enough to think on for a bit...Carry on all..lol!

[MHz]

I'll add just this tid-bit, all flesh that has had life on this earth will have it restored once the new earth begins to unfold in the same way Ge.2 did.

[lazserus]

I just uh, digitally found a book, on this. Interesting that they found sheets of fused glass. Not formed by lightning as that causes very specific web like features in sand.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ancientatomicwar/esp_ancient_atomic_04.htm#analisys of libyan

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ancientatomicwar/esp_ancient_atomic_07.htm


And of course we all know the story from India ten times the length of the Illiad that covers an ancient alien nuclear war on Earth.

I mean wow. What explanation for the sheets of glass? Meteor? No craters found. Lightning? As said it forms patterns not flat sheets. Any one else ever read/heard/saw any thing about this?
I'm ignoring the four pages of comments and going straight to the source of the post.

A lot of people here think you're an instigator and/or a dumbshit. I've been here ten years and to me you're the female version of Micky Doolittle. You and he create a fascinating facade that is both somewhat intelligent while still being absolutely controversial (and idiotic). What you do to entertain yourself, even here, is your business. That being said, I find it difficult to believe you actually completely missed the ballpark and attempted to play baseball on a basketball court. I want to believe the real you is smarter.

To the topic at hand:

First and foremost, the links you provided as references are hardly reliable. At the very best they are misconstructions of modern science, particularly in the field of archaeology. At simple (and logical) best they are opinionated clouds of biased information by untrained bloggers. Really? Did you even spend 60 seconds looking at the web address or the resource content? Did any rationality or free thought spark to life in that skull of yours, mainly considering the claims made by this ONE website?

Archaeologists, as important as they are to the field of historical analysis, are far from trained to identify geologic features. Because archaeologists dig, they are trained in the bare basics of geology, primarily the nature of sedimentary deposition. They need to know (if not obvious) how remains were set into their final resting place. An archaeologist is clearly trained to determine whether or not the remains of a person or animal was buried or died in action. That same archaeologist can determine whether or not the death came as a result from volcanic ash (esp. Pompeii).

Perhaps I'm getting way off topic. Without confirmation by geologists, there's no reason to believe there's a global glass layer--one specifically resulting from some supernatural (extraterrestrial) nuclear war. Also, there are no glass strata, yet perhaps some of these earlier strata contain natural glass. Ever looked into a selected (crystalline) quartz? Looks like foggy glass, but its formation is quite common.

Sparse, unrelated strata of glass by no means even come close to insinuate an ancient nuclear war. Read a book, even be lazy and try google to find out how glass naturally forms. It's much more COMMON than people want to think. I've done my own field research and tossed away volcanic glass in search for fossils buried in sedimentary layers.

Use your imaginations and come up with absolutely absurd ideas if you want. Go to college or attempt reading a real book and you might actually learn something worth while.

This topic is beyond absurd.

[krakatoa]

I watch a documentary on the weekend, either on History or Discovery Canada, dont remember, they were talking about the possibility of Nuclear blast from the past way past.

From what I ear and saw, I dont think it did happen.

Yet, there are still documentary, on this subject, that that for a long time, so the question remains. Did that happened?

Krakatoa.

[Bob]

RE:Use your imaginations and come up with absolutely absurd ideas if you want. Go to college or attempt reading a real book and you might actually learn something worth while.

This topic is beyond absurd.

Right you are! It is absurd to imagine a civilization before the Egyptians or the Assyrians. Impossible, despite the fact there were humans just like us for 100,000 years. It took US 400 years of science to come up with atomic weapons, but unlike those guys...we're so much smarter, we didn't waste our time worshiping spirits and unknown forces of nature. Unlike those guys we're not the type to let established dogma get in the way of a good idea. Our own civilization could never be wiped out, why? Because we're so smart and oh...so terribly clever. I agree with you sir, common sense has no business in a rational discussion of what could possibly happen. So the scientists speak...so let it be done(clap, clap)

[Bob]

RE:. But i do agree with TC in that, shouldnt we have found something, like a nut or bolt. Something concrete and conclusive.

In what universe do nuts and bolts last 5000 years? Not this one.

[hobobone]

RE:. But i do agree with TC in that, shouldnt we have found something, like a nut or bolt. Something concrete and conclusive.

In what universe do nuts and bolts last 5000 years? Not this one.

No there isnt much of anything that lasts 5000 years. I really havent looked at the nuclear blast side of this as much as ive looked at it as,.... has man been here before?.. I myself cant see early man building a nuclear bomb.

[TC]

Well we have early tools that represent 8000 to 10,000 years, copper works, glazing techniques, early forging of raw ore. And in surprisingly good shape.

But logic would tell us that anything that advanced ( nuclear) would involve materials that would far exceed the 10,000 year boundary of primitive technology. Aluminum, stainless steel, high grade ceramics, uniquely casted formations ( the circular configuration of a fission bomb) ... not to mention the refining of uranium...and all of these would be needed to produce such a device... and the majority of these materials would last more or less forever as they are not degradable.

So again, this thread suggests the possibility of nuclear technology ( or the use of it) preceding stone-age man, and our archeology hasn't found one screw or nut ( please see the metaphor here)

And the idea of some alien race nuking an early hominid defies logic...

[lycanox]

RE:Use your imaginations and come up with absolutely absurd ideas if you want. Go to college or attempt reading a real book and you might actually learn something worth while.

This topic is beyond absurd.

Right you are! It is absurd to imagine a civilization before the Egyptians or the Assyrians. Impossible, despite the fact there were humans just like us for 100,000 years. It took US 400 years of science to come up with atomic weapons, but unlike those guys...we're so much smarter, we didn't waste our time worshiping spirits and unknown forces of nature. Unlike those guys we're not the type to let established dogma get in the way of a good idea. Our own civilization could never be wiped out, why? Because we're so smart and oh...so terribly clever. I agree with you sir, common sense has no business in a rational discussion of what could possibly happen. So the scientists speak...so let it be done(clap, clap)
Actually it took over 4000 years for humanity to develop the nuclear bomb. Not 400. As even 400 years ago we relied greatly on information from other civilizations that continued to develop technologically during the dark ages and the roman and Greek empire.


RE:. But i do agree with TC in that, shouldn't we have found something, like a nut or bolt. Something concrete and conclusive.

In what universe do nuts and bolts last 5000 years? Not this one.
Actually stuf last that long in good conditions. Especially stuff made from plastics. Which we would surely expect an advanced civilization to use.

Not to mention that we have found stuff that is way older than 5000 years.

[Fut004]

Especially stuff made from plastics. Which we would surely expect an advanced civilization to use.


There's no reason to think that all, or any, other advanced civilizations that may have, or may, existed would develop in the exact same way that we did. Of course you'll never find evidence of anything if you're only looking for things that we see in our society today.

[Bob]

Since we're discussing "logic":

Aluminum, stainless steel, high grade ceramics, uniquely casted formations ( the circular configuration of a fission bomb) ... not to mention the refining of uranium...and all of these would be needed to produce such a device... and the majority of these materials would last more or less forever as they are not degradable.

All of those things, buried for 10,000 years would be expected to show wear and tear, unless of course, they were used in an atomic bomb, in which case, I would not expect them to survive in good condition.

RE:Actually it took over 4000 years for humanity to develop the nuclear bomb. Not 400. As even 400 years ago we relied greatly on information from other civilizations that continued to develop technologically during the dark ages and the roman and Greek empire.

So,it took 4% of the time we've been here to develop atomic weapons. hell, using that timeline we could have done this 3 or 4 times with plenty of time in-between for the rise and fall of civilizations. I don't understand why this is so absurd? Man is a curious beast, the only one who asks why and how.
We do have some evidence, in our stories. 2000 years from now, the only evidence left of an American civilization will be Mt. Rushmore. Everything else the future knows about us will told as stories.

[GamerGal]

As for evidence left behind... We have artifacts unexplained. Giant metal poles in India, pipes in a Chinese mountain with no explanation, and of course plenty of stories that turned in to myths and legends. Trolls? Prolly left over stories of our encounters with Neandrathals.

[TC]

Since we're discussing "logic":

So,it took 4% of the time we've been here to develop atomic weapons. hell, using that timeline we could have done this 3 or 4 times with plenty of time in-between for the rise and fall of civilizations. I don't understand why this is so absurd? Man is a curious beast, the only one who asks why and how.

Yes Logic....

Look its not just the bomb its the infrastructure of the society needed to created it as well.

Ok you wouldn't find much left of the properties of a detonated device, but the logistics it took to build such a weapon would surly leave some trace. Your talking about a society that has the technology to build a fission bomb... mines that produce the uranium ore, then the means to refine weapons grade plutonium, then the factories and mines that forge the various needed alloy to build a sophisticated device. Regardless how old you think this society might be, you would still find something, anything, that would show that society existed.

We base our record of advancement on this planet with the metal used, it defines the different empires that ruled, and those metals are found in various archaeological ages. And we have nothing before those ages but natural elements and events that shaped this planet.

So yes, I have to say its absurd to suggest that this type of advanced society existed prior to the scientifically proved age of man.

But OK, everybody is entitled to an opinion and belief..

[lazserus]

Right you are! It is absurd to imagine a civilization before the Egyptians or the Assyrians. Impossible, despite the fact there were humans just like us for 100,000 years. It took US 400 years of science to come up with atomic weapons, but unlike those guys...we're so much smarter, we didn't waste our time worshiping spirits and unknown forces of nature. Unlike those guys we're not the type to let established dogma get in the way of a good idea. Our own civilization could never be wiped out, why? Because we're so smart and oh...so terribly clever. I agree with you sir, common sense has no business in a rational discussion of what could possibly happen. So the scientists speak...so let it be done(clap, clap)
Obviously you have a bad case of "don't understand context." Your sarcasm is both noted and misguided, and I'm assuming the latter is a result of minimal or poor education. I can't blame you for not reading or going to school. I can, however, blame you for reading and denying everything that's long established in favor of your own abstract ideology. I'm not here to insult you, but your responses show a severe gap in education. I spoke with you in chat today and you made it sound as if any form of scholarship or research is at best an art project. No one with background in research or scholarship would boast such. And, to preempt a response, scholarship doesn't fall under some strictly guided umbrella. Publication of research, however, does fall under those guidelines.

Anyhow, let's break up your sarcasm a bit. And breaking this up isn't based strictly on subjugated documentation, but hard science.


Impossible, despite the fact there were humans just like us for 100,000 years.
I'm curious, did you pull that number out of a hat? For starters, anatomically modern humans did not emerge until roughly 190,000 years ago. These were the immediate precursors to us, but they were not us. The closest links we can find connecting us to earlier humans is really not more than 20,000 years. Okay, I'm speaking strictly anatomically. If we study the evolution of human cognition we go in a different direction. Although modern anatomical humans appeared more than 100,000 years ago, human cognition leading to our current existence is no older than 15,000 years (being generous here).

The point I'm making is that we humans haven't been the same for straight 100,000 years. Just 12,000 years ago did we figure out agriculture. Around 9,000 years later we figured out written language, in its SIMPLEST form. You can't slap on numbers to human history without visiting context. Certain conditions lead to impressive innovations, such as the discovery of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent. You can't just use arbitrary numbers. Look at the history of the sail, the magnetic compass, the moveable type!


It took US 400 years of science to come up with atomic weapons, but unlike those guys...we're so much smarter, we didn't waste our time worshiping spirits and unknown forces of nature.
I think you have a point here but failed to make it. Us and them...who's them? Who are "we" and we're so much smarter than "whom?" A bit of soapbox rambling you forgot to provide background for?


Well we have early tools that represent 8000 to 10,000 years, copper works, glazing techniques, early forging of raw ore. And in surprisingly good shape.
No offense, my friend, but you're selling it short. We have stone tools crafted more than 40,000 years ago. The archaeological record provides us with tools as far back as early human migration. We've found spearheads and jewelry that separates Neanderthals from humans, but both existed in the same period. I'm not trying to piss in your shower, TC, just elaborating in this particular direction.


But logic would tell us that anything that advanced ( nuclear) would involve materials that would far exceed the 10,000 year boundary of primitive technology. Aluminum, stainless steel, high grade ceramics, uniquely casted formations ( the circular configuration of a fission bomb) ... not to mention the refining of uranium...and all of these would be needed to produce such a device... and the majority of these materials would last more or less forever as they are not degradable.
Anyone who actually understands what occurs in a unclear bomb, how and why it occurs, and the [specific] materials needed in order to make such a process occur, probably isn't making posts in this thread. We can blame ignorance on the bulk of the responders, but anyone who actually understands the physics and the physical and mechanic process involved in detonating a nuclear device...shame on you for even supporting this asinine concept.

Jesus, you buggers seem to think a nuclear reaction is as simple as rubbing wool socks on carpet. If you've read this thread and even nodded your head before researching nuclear physics then you're a damned idiot. Sorry if I just insulted you, but use it and do the damned research.


There is NO possible way for an ancient civilization to produce and detonate a nuclear weapon. You could take raw uranium and smash with a hammer or even drop a mountain on it and it wouldn't explode. It's not dynamite. The physics, the technology, and the production materials involved in constructing a nuclear device are well beyond our understanding. If it was that simple everyone would have a nuke in their sock drawer. Have any of you looked into the process of creating even the most mundane of explosives? Most people who attempt to make pipe bombs blow themselves up. Really? Some ancient culture is just gonna mine uranium, learn through osmosis the concept of splitting atoms and nuclear energy, and bomb some other ancient civilization?

Are you really THAT stupid?

[TC]

No offense, my friend, but you're selling it short. We have stone tools crafted more than 40,000 years ago. The archaeological record provides us with tools as far back as early human migration. We've found spearheads and jewelry that separates Neanderthals from humans, but both existed in the same period. I'm not trying to piss in your shower, TC, just elaborating in this particular direction.


Anyone who actually understands what occurs in a unclear bomb, how and why it occurs, and the [specific] materials needed in order to make such a process occur, probably isn't making posts in this thread. We can blame ignorance on the bulk of the responders, but anyone who actually understands the physics and the physical and mechanic process involved in detonating a nuclear device...shame on you for even supporting this asinine concept.


Well my mention of tools was in context to metal, and its role in our history, I'm aware of earlier stone tools, but I figured it didn't have anything to do with building a device...lol

As for the later, if you read my post, I wasn't in support of this idea ( da bomb) thus the point made in my last post. We are in agreement with this idea as being absurd.

[Bob]

A one word response: Atlantis.

[Bob]

Far be it from me to argue with an academic, after all, they're always right, until they're shown otherwise. That's the history of academia. A wrong theory is replaced by another less wrong theory until finally they get something right. Academia says, city of Troy...a myth, until it's found. Academia says, plate tectonics, absurd, ridiculous, until radar/sonar says it's true. You are correct in your assessment of my academic credentials. I may not know much, but I do know that academics sit on the shoulders of giants who were wrong. But now you got the facts, until those facts change, good for you, money well spent. Come back when you're 50 we'll see how much "know" then.
I do however, deeply admire the very hard work and long hours that academics put in. But despite the boasting, you have very few facts to work with, and those facts are subject to change by...new facts.

[Zer0th]

It seems I'm not the most patronising, self-regarding ass on AO.

[lycanox]

A one word response: Atlantis.
An culture that never evolved boyond the greek culture. Before being snuffed out by an volcanic eruption.


Far be it from me to argue with an academic, after all, they're always right, until they're shown otherwise. That's the history of academia. A wrong theory is replaced by another less wrong theory until finally they get something right. Academia says, city of Troy...a myth, until it's found. Academia says, plate tectonics, absurd, ridiculous, until radar/sonar says it's true. You are correct in your assessment of my academic credentials. I may not know much, but I do know that academics sit on the shoulders of giants who were wrong. But now you got the facts, until those facts change, good for you, money well spent. Come back when you're 50 we'll see how much "know" then.
I do however, deeply admire the very hard work and long hours that academics put in. But despite the boasting, you have very few facts to work with, and those facts are subject to change by...new facts.
Except that the academic world changed his opinion as strong evidence started to emerge.

For an highly advanced civilization on the same level as ours. No evidence exist.

[Fut004]

An culture that never evolved boyond the greek culture. Before being snuffed out by an volcanic eruption.

You say this like it's a well known and die-hard fact.

[Zer0th]

An culture that never evolved boyond the greek culture. Before being snuffed out by an volcanic eruption.
If you buy into the Santorini attribution... but it doesn't fit the text. Not that I take that as gospel. The dialogues are clearly part morality tale, part big-up-the-Athenians puff piece.

"Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them;"

"a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean"

Personally, I'd be dredging the environs of the mid-Atlantic ridge.

Why take it seriously? "the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean"
.

[lycanox]

Outside Santorini. There is no evidence that the Atlantis sage is nothing more than just an old made up story.

Besides, not even the Atlantis story describes an hyper technological civilization on par with ours. After all The Greek have beaten them. Which shows they were not that advanced. And if they were. There should have been traces of them near Greece.

[Zer0th]

Outside Santorini. There is no evidence that the Atlantis sage is nothing more than just an old made up story.
As was thought of Troy.

I take the explicit reference to a continent on the opposite side of the Atlantic as a hint that the tale shouldn't just be dismissed as a made up story.


Besides, not even the Atlantis story describes an hyper technological civilization on par with ours. After all The Greek have beaten them.
Athens hadn't yet become an significant centre of the Mycenaean civilization when Santorini blew... so that part of the story doesn't even jive with the Atlantis=Santorini explication. It's simply the storyteller flattering his audience.
.

[Bob]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is evidence for Atlantis, circumstantial to be sure, but evidence nonetheless.

[lycanox]

As was thought of Troy.

I take the explicit reference to a continent on the opposite side of the Atlantic as a hint that the tale shouldn't just be dismissed as a made up story.
That is like believing that just because someone happens to have an yellow road. The mythical emerald city of Oz must exist.
Or that Alliens are currently invading LA. Because Los angles from Battle los angles. Does exist.

In reality it is far to little evidence to deem an story correct.
And if Plato was knowledged enough to use the Santorini eruption as a basis for their stories. He might just as well used an different rumor of an land in the atlantic ocean as a base.




Athens hadn't yet become an significant centre of the Mycenaean civilization when Santorini blew... so that part of the story doesn't even jive with the Atlantis=Santorini explication. It's simply the storyteller flattering his audience.
.Which makes it far more likely that it is just a moral story.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is evidence for Atlantis, circumstantial to be sure, but evidence nonetheless.
Most of this evidence points to the santorini eruption.

[Bob]

RE:Most of this evidence points to the santorini eruption.

What evidence? Now you're the one who's watching too much TV. Or...you're guessing.

[lycanox]

Well, for starters. Qua story the two stories are pretty much identical.
As both the fate, and the description of the culture match.

[TC]

For those who adhere to the Atlantis theory, leastwise within the Atlantic basin, we have magnetic bands on both sides of the mid ocean ridge that confirm the age of the sea floor, this isn't guess work. And those bands show the coastal areas at around 120 million years old, and the newer material closer to the spreading ridge itself is +- 20 million years.

This leaves no room geologically for a land mass to have existed anywhere within the Atlantic basin. As for Mediterranean, you have two events that have created the myth, foremost being the collapse of the former Atlas mountain range that originally connected the African land mass with southern Europe. When this subsided at the straits of Gibraltar, it flooded the then dry Mediterranean basin, thus the flood stories.

During the building of the Aswan dam, the drilling to hit bedrock showed an original depth of the Nile to be some 200ft lower than it is today, and soundings off the coast at the delta, show it being much further out and deeper than the current delta. Sediment testing confirms this fact.

The second event, and most accepted theory, is of course the eruption of Thera, bringing a close to the Minoan society. And the impact of that event lead to stories and myths regarding the "sinking" of advanced culture.

If we are to logically debate the theory Atlantis, then we have to have reviewed and accepted research that would suggest its existence, an thus far we have no sign of its geological residue, which would logically show up with modern SatScan imagery. We can see beneath the sands of the Sahara and map the bed rock, likewise with our ocean basins, so it stands to reason that any geological event on the scale of a subsiding continent would revel itself in both the age of the material within its mass, as well as the boundaries. And todays mapping of the entire surface area, including ocean basins, show nothing within the last 20 million years that could qualify.

Now rather than scoff this off as "academic" , at least show some valid science that could prove its existence, unless you can find fault with the Sat imagery of past and present geology.

[Zer0th]

I'm not going to argue here for a straight-up, literal Atlantis, rather an open mind to the possibility that there's more to it than just a "made up story".

One aspect to the supposed dating (9,000 years before Plato) that interests me is that it's contemporaneous with the end of the last ice age.

[TC]

I'm not going to argue here for a straight-up, literal Atlantis, rather an open mind to the possibility that there's more to it than just a "made up story".

One aspect to the supposed dating (9,000 years before Plato) that interests me is that it's contemporaneous with the end of the last ice age.

Ok what would the advent of the Holocene age have to do with the subject ( Atlantis)? I do have an open mind, but at the same time I need realistic boundaries to bounce off of to keep things in perspective.

At 12000 years, we have retreating glacial ice, and subsequently the migration of what we call modern man into northern Europe.

No argument here, just a question.

[Zer0th]

Simply that north western Europe enjoys the climate that it does courtesy the warm currents from the Gulf of Mexico. Block those with a land mass, roll around one of our periodic ice ages and then take that land mass out.

Nothing I've read, just speculating on the hoof out loud.

[TC]

Simply that north western Europe enjoys the climate that it does courtesy the warm currents from the Gulf of Mexico. Block those with a land mass, roll around one of our periodic ice ages and then take that land mass out.

Nothing I've read, just speculating on the hoof out loud.

Granted a large mass would disturb the gulf stream.

OK. The Atlantic has an average depth of around 12,000ft predominate to the shelf rise. And the magnetic orientation shows a continuous outward flow of new crust on both sides of the mid ocean ridge ( dated) without a break to both coast lines. It stands to reason that any large mass subsiding through tectonic action would be reveled by disturbance in the magnetic structure of the sea floor.

We have had four major glacial periods lasting roughly 100,000 years, and the 20,000 year interglacial warming periods that define them. This is obviously cyclic in nature. The Quaternary ice periods have coincided when the phases of axial tilt, precession of equinoxes and eccentricity of orbit are all lined up to give the northern hemisphere the least amount of summer warmth.

Mind you this is the process of elimination I've gone through over the years in my search for the plausibility of something like Atlantis.

[Bob]

I have alway thought that Atlantis was a part of the canary island chain and was wiped completely in the periodic earthquake/landslide/ volcanic tsunami episodes that the island chains (cumbra veijo) are known for. I seriously doubt that physical evidence of that culture will ever be found, causing much aggravation to academics everywhere. I do think the Minoans and the Egyptians are the offspring of the survivors.

[TC]

I have alway thought that Atlantis was a part of the canary island chain and was wiped completely in the periodic earthquake/landslide/ volcanic tsunami episodes that the island chains (cumbra veijo) are known for. I seriously doubt that physical evidence of that culture will ever be found, causing much aggravation to academics everywhere. I do think the Minoans and the Egyptians are the offspring of the survivors.


Well... ( more academia) the islands magmatism in the Canary Islands started during the Cretaceous and the Miocene periods, creating the chain system which is visible today. And this volcanism has continued right up to the last 5 centuries.

Both La Palma and Hierro are shield stage cones, representing your latest activity, and further north-east you have the older islands like Lanzarote in a process of erosion, similar to the Hawaiian cone building system.

The magma source is attributed to several processes, one being a propagating fracture that continues to feed fresh material into localized area ( Canary) and the other being a suggested plume source, like Yellowstone and Hawaii. The argument to this theory is that tomography shows a cold lithosphere, in other words no thermal signature, which gives more credibility to a fissure type system.

The geology of this system doesn't show a larger mass existing during its cone building process, albeit El Hierro shows debris fields that extend far out from the cone base, and these are a result of sluff slide, similar to snow avalanche due to the near vertical sides of its peak, but do not represent subsided land mass.

BTW, the name Canary comes from the dog, not the bird. The legendary *canes* (dogs) of the Canaries are the emblematic figures who held the coat of arms... woof.

[lycanox]

I have alway thought that Atlantis was a part of the canary island chain and was wiped completely in the periodic earthquake/landslide/ volcanic tsunami episodes that the island chains (cumbra veijo) are known for. I seriously doubt that physical evidence of that culture will ever be found, causing much aggravation to academics everywhere. I do think the Minoans and the Egyptians are the offspring of the survivors.
Paradox alert.

If the Minoans and Egyptians really were the offspring of the survivors. They would also have access to their technology. So we would have evidence of an earlier scientific developed civilization.

[Bob]

If I were the survivor of an American catastrophe, I would have knowledge of advanced technology, but would I be likely to bring a computer with me? How useful would the HD DVD be? It is highly unlikely that I would have access to these high tech items, or a use for them as survival would be my number one objective. The knowledge that they would have brought would have been preserved in the library, but we all know what happens to those don't we. From generation to generation that knowledge would be diluted by time in the same way that I know how to make a wagon wheel or a wooden barrel, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to actually make one myself.

[lycanox]

Nonsense. An civilization that advance would at least take a GPS system with them. Lots of basic tools and a whole library of modern science.

Yet what we are seeing in Egypt and Greece are civilization that were still pretty much guessing about the nature of the world. Not to mention that their cultures show an increase in scientific knowledge. Not a decrease.

The Egyptians for example started with piles of sand that they developed to the massive pyramids. Not with skyscrapers ending up with pyramids.

[Bob]

RE:Nonsense. An civilization that advance would at least take a GPS system with them. Lots of basic tools and a whole library of modern science.

Until the batteries die. Basic tools are just that...basic, and libraries as we all know...burn.

Atmospheric drag would have brought those GPS sats down, burning up without a trace. Nice try tho. All traces of any technological society that lost its population, would be completely erased after 2000 years. The old kingdom of Egypt starts approx. 3500BC/ ice age comes to an end 12-15000 BC. Plenty of time for the rise and fall of Atlantis.

[Zer0th]

@TC, weren't you involved with in-situ research viz the possible extra antiquity of the Sphinx? Presumably related to supposed water erosion.

Were you able to draw any potted conclusions?

Apologies, I've consciously tried to stick to a limited set of sub-fora here in order that I might "work" and play.

[lycanox]

RE:Nonsense. An civilization that advance would at least take a GPS system with them. Lots of basic tools and a whole library of modern science.

Until the batteries die. Basic tools are just that...basic, and libraries as we all know...burn.



Atmospheric drag would have brought those GPS sats down, burning up without a trace. Nice try tho. All traces of any technological society that lost its population, would be completely erased after 2000 years. The old kingdom of Egypt starts approx. 3500BC/ ice age comes to an end 12-15000 BC. Plenty of time for the rise and fall of Atlantis.

If those things contained plastics. We would still have found plastics. As plastics last practically forever.
Anyone that knows how an battery works. Can create one even in stone age conditions.
Steam engines are much to simple to be feasible forgotten in time. Yet are efficient enough greatly industrialize an population.
And the simple skill of vaccination, would have had a huge impact on the health of a population. Yet Egypt's royals still died of small pocks at the peak of their civilization.

And there is also the huge amount of knowledge in astronomy, geology and other fields of science that simply wont be forgotten. Yet the Egyptian and Greek culture never hinted of being aware of even the simplest things we know today.

Another incredible huge flaw is that no flora and fauna were found in Greece or Egypt that can be contributed to an huge foreign migration.
While an migrating population would always bring useful animals or seeds with them to farm at their destination.

And another point. We have records of civilizations going back even further than 2000 years. In fact, we have fossil remains of animals that lived millions of years ago of such quality. That we can puzzle back how they lived.

Heck even if the dinosaurs had modern civilizations like ours. We would have found out about it right away. Due to scars on the bones that point to surgery and the absence of deceases that effect the bones.

And in the end, all you are trying to do is explaining away the lack of evidence for your theory. Not providing any evidence to support it.

[TC]

@TC, weren't you involved with in-situ research viz the possible extra antiquity of the Sphinx? Presumably related to supposed water erosion.

Were you able to draw any potted conclusions?

Apologies, I've consciously tried to stick to a limited set of sub-fora here in order that I might "work" and play.


My apologies as well to the thread starter for the drift here..lol

Well if anyone can answer the "age" question you'd most assuredly get your 15 minutes of fame.

There is so much evidence that shows obvious water flow, and this is the sticking point with established Egyptology, (Dr. Zahi) who combats the notion of "inherited" Pyramids, yet gives no logical answer to water born sediments and erosion.

I can say without a doubt ( which was the reason for the study on my part) that a lush and humid climate did indeed exist, and eventually this "monsoon" situation moved south, forcing the then wide spread inhabitants to relocate into the confines of the Nile valley. And these desert conditions that followed have existed roughly 5000 to 6000 years. ( arguably a slow process of climate transition)

This would place the current argued building date of the pyramids (ca. 2550 BC) within those desert conditions.

So for a potted answer, I would hold that the erosion and sediments show a building date much earlier than 2550 BC.

Who built them? honestly, I have no idea. But the precision would be hard to duplicate even today.

[MHz]

If the rains stopped in 10,000 BC then the weathering had already taken place. Under heavy rains erosion would happen faster.
What happens to that type of stone if the humidity is raised to something that is much higher than it is today. Some speculate that the Nile was much higher back then so that in a flood (if that ever happened) the banks would be very close to the statue's paws.

Since that period of time was also during the height of the last ice age the level of the Med Sea would have been 400ft lower. The band of land between the two ice-sheets would have been fertile and perhaps semi tropical year round.

The stone monuments in South America could have been done at the same time but they are so high up erosion is non-existent.

Using today's climate software it should be possible to determine winds/temps/rain patterns to a fairly accurate degree. To have high-speed cold winds trapping warm moist air would be better for my proposal than it mixing and having twister that are a 10 in scale but it would give me a cloud cover that was constant and rains would be more in a drizzle,very heavy fog that condenses as would dew.

As for people and how far they were along, not so advanced, the structures would be built by the Gods rather than as a monument in memory of them. That is what the structures were for, monuments left for man to 'discover' and either use as a device or a bit of history that stood the test of time.

I don't have the talent or the software to model that change in climate to verify what the parameters would be and what the results would show.

This vid should be the same being that did both as the time would fit the 40,000 BC era if zero erosion took place in the area the vid covers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xoGUg-nF6w

[Ningishiddza]

I'm not going to argue here for a straight-up, literal Atlantis, rather an open mind to the possibility that there's more to it than just a "made up story".

One aspect to the supposed dating (9,000 years before Plato) that interests me is that it's contemporaneous with the end of the last ice age.

Then you're on the right track.


For those who adhere to the Atlantis theory, leastwise within the Atlantic basin, we have magnetic bands on both sides of the mid ocean ridge that confirm the age of the sea floor, this isn't guess work. And those bands show the coastal areas at around 120 million years old, and the newer material closer to the spreading ridge itself is +- 20 million years.

This leaves no room geologically for a land mass to have existed anywhere within the Atlantic basin. As for Mediterranean, you have two events that have created the myth, foremost being the collapse of the former Atlas mountain range that originally connected the African land mass with southern Europe. When this subsided at the straits of Gibraltar, it flooded the then dry Mediterranean basin, thus the flood stories.

During the building of the Aswan dam, the drilling to hit bedrock showed an original depth of the Nile to be some 200ft lower than it is today, and soundings off the coast at the delta, show it being much further out and deeper than the current delta. Sediment testing confirms this fact.

The second event, and most accepted theory, is of course the eruption of Thera, bringing a close to the Minoan society. And the impact of that event lead to stories and myths regarding the "sinking" of advanced culture.

If we are to logically debate the theory Atlantis, then we have to have reviewed and accepted research that would suggest its existence, an thus far we have no sign of its geological residue, which would logically show up with modern SatScan imagery.

Where does it say that Atlantis sank? See, that's the whole problem.

Academia intentionally mistranslates the Greek texts, then turns around and says, "See how absurd that is?"

Nowhere does it say that Atlantis sank. The text quite clearly says that Atlantis was inundated. "Sinking" and "being inundated" are not the same thing. Plato never said Atlantis sank. It is Academia and idiot detractors like Lycancox who says Atlantis sank. Plato says Atlantis was inundated.

Can something be inundated? Well, gosh, I don't know, but I would be inclined to ask people in New Orleans since they experienced that during Hurricane Katrina.


Now rather than scoff this off as "academic" , at least show some valid science that could prove its existence, unless you can find fault with the Sat imagery of past and present geology.

You got it.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i134/ningishiddza/user4981.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i134/ningishiddza/user4939.jpg

What you're looking at is Earth 12,000 years ago.

The first image is the Caribbean Region. Note that the Gulf of Mexico is actually the Mexican Sea, much like the Aral Sea or Lake Baikal or the Great Lakes. There is no outlet to the Atlantic Ocean. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are all joined together as one land mass.

The second images shows the Canary Islands to the west of Spain.

Going back to the first image, what appears to be a small island off by itself at the top of the image right of center is not actually an island. That is the southern peninsula of the island continent of Bermuda.

Drop the sea level 600 feet (183 meters) and this is what Earth looks like and Bermuda would increase in size by more than 8 times its present size.

For potential candidates, I like Bermuda but don't reject the Canary Islands (which wouldn't have been islands 12,000 years ago, rather they would be one large land mass -- an island continent).

Speaking of island continents, why would Plato refer to a dink island like Santorini as an "island continent" when there are more than 40 islands in the Mediterranean that are 10x the size of Santorini before it blew up?

Corsica, Sicily, Elba, Crete, Cyprus and a few others are nearly 20 to 30 times the size of the original Santorini, yet they don't get billed as an "island continent" and no one ever refers to them as island continents. In fact, no one in history has ever referred to any island in the Mediterranean as an island continent.

Anyway, when the sea level rises, what happens to the land mass in the Atlantic?

Um, they don't sink, rather they are all inundated.

I will grant you that Atlantis did not sink, because the geography and geology of the Atlantic would not permit that, but then I never intentionally mistranslated the text to make the ridiculous claim that Atlantis sank.

Atlantis was inundated, approximately 12,000 years ago according to the texts.

The geography and geology of the Atlantic does permit a land mass in the Atlantic to be inundated.

Here's the best image of Bermuda I could find. Anyway, lower the sea level 600 feet and Bermuda goes from a dink island to huge land mass

http://www.bermudaislandfacts.com/index_files/image6301.jpg


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is evidence for Atlantis, circumstantial to be sure, but evidence nonetheless.

Yeah, well, that's Academia for you. The same Academics clung to the idiotic "Land Bridge" theory for decades and ruined people's lives (and I mean that literally) for a theory that was so stupid it should never have been allowed to be taught and now has been thoroughly debunked.

Oh, and wasn't it Academia who swore up and down it was impossible for mountains to exist in Antarctica? Oh, yeah, sure and then in 1958 the US Geo-Physical Survey team borrows a ground radar from the Army, sets up on on top of a glacier and starts firing through the ice. Whoa! Thar be Mountains there!

How embarrassing is that?


As was thought of Troy.

Quite true. Who was that, Schlieman? I can't remember who found Troy, but he was laughed at for decades, as were others who found the ancient cities in Shumer and Akkad which supposedly didn't exist either.


I take the explicit reference to a continent on the opposite side of the Atlantic as a hint that the tale shouldn't just be dismissed as a made up story.

It's more than plausible.


If you buy into the Santorini attribution... but it doesn't fit the text.

No, it clearly does not, and the only way to make it fit is to crow-bar it and totally ignore the text. The elements of the story are:

1) West of the Pillar of Hercules (the Rock of Gibraltar) which means in the Atlantic;

2) an Island Continent;

3) a harbor with a masked entrance to the sea. For those who have trouble with that, the best I can offer off the top of my head would be Norfolk naval base and port and Newport News shipyards and port. Can you see them from the Atlantic? Nope. You have to actually sail up the Chesapeake Bay a ways to see them. I wouldn't necessarily call that masked, but you get the general idea;

4) a series of bridges and interlocking canals;

5) a citadel on a hill;

6) inundated during the Deluge;

7) caused the sea at the mouth of the Mediterranean to be muddy for centuries afterward. Why? Because if Atlantis was an island continent in the Atlantic and it was inundated during the Deluge then water would have swept debris into the Atlantic Ocean and when the currents came to the mouth of the Mediterranean, because of the difference in salinity, it caused silt to precipitate out -- which is a serious problem because if the silt is in the Mediterranean flowing into the Atlantic the silt would not precipitate out. Get it? Water from the Nile carrying silt and sediments precipitates out when it hits the Mediterranean (forming the delta) because the Nile is fresh water and the Mediterranean is salt water. Well, the Atlantic is salt water too, but of a lower density (salinity) than the Mediterranean, that is the specific gravity of water in the Nile would be 1.0 and the Mediterranean about 1.23 but the Atlantic 1.18 and there you go.


With rainbows only mentioned post flood the tomes before that could have been the same 'mist' mentioned back in Ge.2. Combine that with greatly enlarged polar regions and the clout tops may only have been a mile or two above what would have been sea-level back the (400+ft lower than it is today) That also means the coldness of space could have been much closer to sea-level. If the ice-sheets were two miles tall the temp on their surface could have been much colder than the -40 to -60 that they see today.

All that to set this question up, under those conditions (100% humidity) and zones of our atmosphere that are much loer than they are today, ie ozone being close to the 2mile high mark where water vapor is already 0% because of the masses of cold upper air that only existed with giant ice-caps. That leads to Tesla versions of transmitting electricity where something the size of the pyramids was the power generator for the world and anything along those lay-lines could tap that power by using a pair of antenna that were the proper length.

We need a bullshit flag.


RE:. But i do agree with TC in that, shouldnt we have found something, like a nut or bolt. Something concrete and conclusive.

In what universe do nuts and bolts last 5000 years? Not this one.

What, Native American Indians didn't have guns so they didn't have wars before whitey came? Wrong answer. Native American Indians had already committed genocide and wiped three tribal groups from the face of the Earth before whitey showed up, and they didn't use guns or cannons.

It's very important to avoid imposing your cultural values on other cultures, especially older cultures.

Just because we use a certain type of fastener, like nuts and bolts doesn't mean other cultures had to also use them.


Since we're discussing "logic":

Aluminum, stainless steel, high grade ceramics, uniquely casted formations ( the circular configuration of a fission bomb) ... not to mention the refining of uranium...and all of these would be needed to produce such a device... and the majority of these materials would last more or less forever as they are not degradable.

Not necessarily. For one thing, iron is not used in nuclear weapons.

Who on this forum would like to know why? Iron isn't used for the same reason other highly reactive metals are not used.

Why do you think all of the wiring in a nuclear warhead is gold? Because gold is not very reactive. Silver oxidizes (tarnishes), and so do many other metals. That's why the weapon casing on nuclear warheads is 5 mm of standard military grade aluminum.

The names of the 7 Awesome Weapons of Destruction used on Sodom, Gomorrah and the Cities of the Plain:

1) One Without Rival
2) Blazing Flame
3) One Who Terror Crumbles
4) Mountain Melter
5) Evil Wind
6) One Who Spares No One
7) Vaporizer of Living Things


All of those things, buried for 10,000 years would be expected to show wear and tear, unless of course, they were used in an atomic bomb, in which case, I would not expect them to survive in good condition.

Just because we don't know how to fission the rather plentiful U238 doesn't mean someone else didn't know how. Sometimes the problem with culture is you get trapped into a mode of thinking. The combustion engine would be a fairly good example. We're trapped in this idea that we must use a combustion engine to propel our vehicles, and it's difficult for people think outside the box and come up with something different.

And who's to say those weapons originated on Earth? They may have been crafted elsewhere.


So,it took 4% of the time we've been here to develop atomic weapons. hell, using that timeline we could have done this 3 or 4 times with plenty of time in-between for the rise and fall of civilizations.

As I've said before, if it wasn't for christianity, we could have put a man on the Moon 500 years ago. Christianity retarded our development severely.


Ok what would the advent of the Holocene age have to do with the subject ( Atlantis)? I do have an open mind, but at the same time I need realistic boundaries to bounce off of to keep things in perspective.

At 12000 years, we have retreating glacial ice, and subsequently the migration of what we call modern man into northern Europe.

No argument here, just a question.

The Deluge, which occurred 12,000 years ago.

It was tsumani that originated in the Antarctic caused by the destruction of the western ice sheet. Probably a small meteor impacted in the area, maybe on the ice sheet itself. As I've pointed out before, "Flood" stories that originate in the Western Hemisphere or north eastern Siberia mention a Flaming Arrow, Flaming Rock, Water Rock, Water Comet, Burning Star, Falling Star etc, while all cultures on the opposite side of the world make no mention of it at all.

That is geographically accurate. If a meteor entered Earth's atmosphere in the north polar region and transited on a southeasterly course, it would traverse northeastern Siberia, the western Americans, South America and then land on the ice sheet (or near it).

Several 100 million metric tons of ice sliding in the water would create a helluva tsunami. Sure, in typical Atlantis fashion everyone seizes and clings to the Hebrew version of the event, but it is the only one out of 120+ stories that claims it lasted more than 3-5 days.

Or put another way, all of the 120+ Flood myths claim the event was 3-5 days, except the Hebrew version (well, there is one that claims the waters subsided on the 6 day).

A culture living on the coast of what is now Florida would have been wiped from the face of the Earth, along with better than 90% of the evidence of their existence, and what evidence remained would now be under several hundred feet of water and, I don't know, up to a few dozen meters of silt and sand.

Many cultures live on the coast because it affords transportation and a source of food, and certainly advanced civilizations would have traded, so they needed ports, and all evidence of that would be obliterated and what wasn't is buried.


Which makes it far more likely that it is just a moral story.

All of the Greek philosophers, except Aristotle, lived and studied in Egypt for periods of 10-12 years (usually from a child/teen to adulthood). Plato was familiar with the story from the writings of Solon. The Priest at Sais told Solon the story. Solon did not copy the story from Egyptian texts. According to Solon, the Priest at Sais says:

You Hellenes have no history because certain perturbations in the [Earth's] orbit result in periodic cataclysmic destruction.

I put that in brackets because it is not in the original text, and the text I'm referring to is Solon's text, not Plato's. Solon did not describe the political or societal structure of Atlantis, but Plato did and so it might be fair to say that Plato took the basic facts from Solon and added his own information about the political and societal structure to create a morality play.

I don't suppose you've ever seen the film Saving Private Ryan, but according to you, WW II and D-Day never happened because Steven Spielberg took some basic facts, like WW II and D-Day and created an entertaining morality play about soldiers in combat.


Simply that north western Europe enjoys the climate that it does courtesy the warm currents from the Gulf of Mexico. Block those with a land mass, roll around one of our periodic ice ages and then take that land mass out.

Nothing I've read, just speculating on the hoof out loud.

Well then look at the images above, because there ain't no warm currents circulating from the Gulf of Mexico 12,000 years ago.


I do think the Minoans and the Egyptians are the offspring of the survivors.

I might accept the Minoans. But "Egyptians" (snicker) that's a little hard to put your finger on. It would be a little absurd to suggest that today's largely Arabic population is "Egyptian."


If I were the survivor of an American catastrophe, I would have knowledge of advanced technology, but would I be likely to bring a computer with me? How useful would the HD DVD be? It is highly unlikely that I would have access to these high tech items, or a use for them as survival would be my number one objective. The knowledge that they would have brought would have been preserved in the library, but we all know what happens to those don't we. From generation to generation that knowledge would be diluted by time in the same way that I know how to make a wagon wheel or a wooden barrel, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to actually make one myself.

If something happened, all of that knowledge would be lost, and lost for a very long time, until it was re-discovered, if it ever would be.

Libraries? Ha. Books would end up as fuel for cooking and heating. You think people are actually going to go cut down a tree and start chopping fire wood?
Ha. Think again. People are freaking lazy, especially in urban areas, I mean seriously, you think the chimpanzees are going to cut fire wood? No, they will raid the libraries and book stores.


@TC, weren't you involved with in-situ research viz the possible extra antiquity of the Sphinx? Presumably related to supposed water erosion.

According to an ancient text written circa 4,000 BCE, Ningishiddza built the pyramids after the Deluge, which occurred in the Age of the Lion (that is to say the Age of Leo or 12,000 years ago).

In order to commemorate his building of the pyramids and to mark both the date of the Deluge and the date the pyramids were built, the Sphinx was constructed.

The Sphinx of course is a lion and the face was originally the likeness of Ningishiddza. The text also mentions that Ningishiddza built the observatories to view celestial events leading up to the Deluge.

That proves Khufu never built the Great Pyramid.


There is so much evidence that shows obvious water flow, and this is the sticking point with established Egyptology, (Dr. Zahi) who combats the notion of "inherited" Pyramids, yet gives no logical answer to water born sediments and erosion.

Yeah, well, as I've said before, Egypt is the oldest continuing existing civilization and its a backward society dominated by a hokey religion. It's only claim to fame is 3 pyramids, the sphinx and the falafel, and if you take away the pyramids and the sphinx, well, doesn't say much about Egypt.


I can say without a doubt ( which was the reason for the study on my part) that a lush and humid climate did indeed exist, and eventually this "monsoon" situation moved south, forcing the then wide spread inhabitants to relocate into the confines of the Nile valley. And these desert conditions that followed have existed roughly 5000 to 6000 years. ( arguably a slow process of climate transition)

This would place the current argued building date of the pyramids (ca. 2550 BC) within those desert conditions.

I doubt that they would ever let you, but next time you're there, take some scrapings or swabs of the red ochre paint from inside the Great Pyramid and have it carbon dated.

It won't be more than 200 years old and that will destroy the single piece of evidence that Khufu built it.

[Zer0th]

Thanks Ning. Very interesting, and seemingly credible... to me at least.

I've been struck previously by the apparent rapidity of the transition out of the last ice age. <50 years by some reports.

[Zer0th]

Thanks Top Cat!


My apologies as well to the thread starter for the drift here..lol
I believe it could be peripherally relevant to the OP.

[lycanox]

All of the Greek philosophers, except Aristotle, lived and studied in Egypt for periods of 10-12 years (usually from a child/teen to adulthood). Plato was familiar with the story from the writings of Solon. The Priest at Sais told Solon the story. Solon did not copy the story from Egyptian texts. According to Solon, the Priest at Sais says:

You Hellenes have no history because certain perturbations in the [Earth's] orbit result in periodic cataclysmic destruction.

I put that in brackets because it is not in the original text, and the text I'm referring to is Solon's text, not Plato's. Solon did not describe the political or societal structure of Atlantis, but Plato did and so it might be fair to say that Plato took the basic facts from Solon and added his own information about the political and societal structure to create a morality play.

I don't suppose you've ever seen the film Saving Private Ryan, but according to you, WW II and D-Day never happened because Steven Spielberg took some basic facts, like WW II and D-Day and created an entertaining morality play about soldiers in combat.

Actually I already argued that the story was likely based on the Santorini eruption.
Which is still the Nr 1 candidate of being atlantis at the moment. Both in fate and culture.

[MHz]

1) West of the Pillar of Hercules (the Rock of Gibraltar) which means in the Atlantic;

As the iecsheets were breaking up why not have the Gulf Stream undercut the sheet that is still measured in KM in depth. An area the size o Texas could break loose and with volcanoes letting off ash and dust storms the ice soon got a covering of 'topsoil' as it drifted south. As it got close to the Med Sea it grounded out . Close to the sea level it would be cliffs until you climbed to the plateau.

That's 1 & 2



2) an Island Continent;



3) a harbor with a masked entrance to the sea. For those who have trouble with that, the best I can offer off the top of my head would be Norfolk naval base and port and Newport News shipyards and port. Can you see them from the Atlantic? Nope. You have to actually sail up the Chesapeake Bay a ways to see them. I wouldn't necessarily call that masked, but you get the general idea;
The plateau while being several km above the salt water ir did have 'lakes and rivers' that were big enough to use as 'roads' Rivers were also able to to 'disappear' before reaching the cliffs, also ships coming in could sail into tidal caves that would lead to some of these great waterfalls where the light was via the crystal clear ice. Ladders and hoists would be the way cargo and passengers were handled. Carving new roads would be a matter of moving a few low dams.



4) a series of bridges and interlocking canals;



5) a citadel on a hill;
The top of a Glacier would be a hill.


6) inundated during the Deluge;
Melted away



7) caused the sea at the mouth of the Mediterranean to be muddy for centuries afterward. Why? Because if Atlantis was an island continent in the Atlantic and it was inundated during the Deluge then water would have swept debris into the Atlantic Ocean and when the currents came to the mouth of the Mediterranean, because of the difference in salinity, it caused silt to precipitate out -- which is a serious problem because if the silt is in the Mediterranean flowing into the Atlantic the silt would not precipitate out. Get it? Water from the Nile carrying silt and sediments precipitates out when it hits the Mediterranean (forming the delta) because the Nile is fresh water and the Mediterranean is salt water. Well, the Atlantic is salt water too, but of a lower density (salinity) than the Mediterranean, that is the specific gravity of water in the Nile would be 1.0 and the Mediterranean about 1.23 but the Atlantic 1.18 and there you go.

Only 6 -10 ft was topsoil (insulation also) the rest of the island that was so large it took a very long time to melt and the 'top' remained until the last days, the 'hill' slowly melted from the bottom up. How much would a block of fresh water dilute the Atlantic?



According to an ancient text written circa 4,000 BCE, Ningishiddza built the pyramids after the Deluge, which occurred in the Age of the Lion (that is to say the Age of Leo or 12,000 years ago).

Lion of Judea actually, watching, waiting for the exodus, completion date 40001BC

[nedcoates]

[QUOTE=Ningishiddza;425346]Then you're on the right track.



Thanks Yossarian. Excellent and informative post shoreing up some of my thoughts.

[nedcoates]

Luckily for those of us genuinely interested in our history rather than meekly accepting current dogma as 'case closed', get back to your tv and 'Stars In Their Eye's etc, there are now competent researchers out there pushing back the boundaries of our knowledge. (Looking where they are not wanted of course). Using science, engineering and healthy doses of logic, common sense and critical thinking.

Thanks to them and the internet we now know there are several engineering feats in Egypt that our current technology cannot reproduce today. Not "hard to duplicate even today".....Cannot. Actually I enjoyed typing that so much I'll type it again. Cannot. In both manufacture and transportation. So where does that leave a bunch of guys with bronze mallets, chisels and nervous camels several thousand years ago? Nowhere. And silly videos of an 'academic' banging a rock on the unfinished obelisk in the quarry does not fool me. I'm not ten anymore and concentrating on the girl in mathematics 3B.

I'm out for the truth and I'm not alone. That video of Mark Learner hurting his hand is all the proof one needs of the desperate corner the Egyptologists have painted themselves into. It's pitiful, absurd and frankly pathetic.

It was my first visit to Giza in 2004 that woke me up with a jolt. I could immediately see I'd been fed a large dose of tosh. Make no mistake there is no bridge between the reality of the engineering feats in Egypt now and the current theories of the Egyptologists. That is why their defence of the current dogma is so vociferous. They seem unable to accept their hard, valid and meticulous work is only part of the story of our history and that there will be major amendments.

As with the flat earth proponents of the past we'll have to put up with this VI resistance for awhile before self evident truth is accepted and we can start on the next piece of the puzzle. It'll happen in my lifetime for sure.

I am very grateful to all those researchers out there putting their own money and time on the line when it should be those officially charged and funded for that duty. Thank you for enriching my life and that of my family and making up for those who are meant to be doing the job.

Apologies to the OP. Nuclear... Glass..... No idea:thumbs:


Peace!

[TC]

Well its gets more absured as we go along here, the original thread was dealing with pre historical sand turned to glass..supposedly by a thermal nuclear device . And now we have continental size pieces of ice with top soil supporting an advanced culture who presumably could build the bomb. ( the ice being cut away by the gulf stream mind you---*

At this point we're on a dirt road in Oregon looking for route 66.

[MHz]

I'm out for the truth and I'm not alone. That video of Mark Learner hurting his hand is all the proof one needs of the desperate corner the Egyptologists have painted themselves into. It's pitiful, absurd and frankly pathetic.

It was my first visit to Giza in 2004 that woke me up with a jolt. I could immediately see I'd been fed a large dose of tosh.

I hope this expert gets moved up in his field, Abd'el Hakim Awyan.
The vid that impressed me (about him) was called 'The Pyramid Code' . The Giza power station theory is being examined, not sure if there are any updates since that vid was made.

Check out the underground dwelling, could that same design be carved into the interior of a glacier? about the 3 min mark is the design I was thinking of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvBFGqNqJ70

[MHz]

Well its gets more absured as we go along here, the original thread was dealing with pre historical sand turned to glass..supposedly by a thermal nuclear device . And now we have continental size pieces of ice with top soil supporting an advanced culture who presumably could build the bomb. ( the ice being cut away by the gulf stream mind you---*

At this point we're on a dirt road in Oregon looking for route 66.

LOL that is funny and almost ironic. There is a village in Alberta called Grovedale that is the starting point for Secondary Highway 666, I have been down that road several miles, even off the very end. Google maps has a few pics if you like unending forest.

I'm not trying to wreck the OP but exploration involves turning over all the rocks if you are looking for 'something not in plain sight.

It's a basic theory, maybe with the lower water and the salt being at a higher % the boats floated higher and everyone had a hydroplane with just a light breeze.

The green glass in Northern Africa is a fact, the cause is 'under investigation', one theory had 'somebody' capable of exploding nuclear devices. Another valid answer is there were advanced being back then but they didn't fight nuclear wars, the glass was a result of an asteroid skipping on our atmosphere, a solid rock that came in at a shallow angle of impact, rather than a bullet to the chest it was one that just cut the cloth oh the sleeve and didn't break the skin but it did leave a 'mark'. No radiation but lots a heat and lots of wind. Molten sand stayed in place and everything that was turned to ash was blown away. I'm not sure that would explain how it went from having rivers to being a desert.


The topsoil would have come from Iceland once she had open skies above her, that ice age lasted a very long time after the last snow fell, once ash settled only wind would move it around, no snow, no rain. A glacier has to act the same way an iceberg/cube does, most of it is under water, so if two milers is above the sea level (the ice-shelf down south could provide a better ratio to use) then it might be dragging on the Atlantic Ridge and that is always slowly spreading That should be a crack if they are 'stuck together'. If sea ice was greater than current models predict then the drop in sea levels could even be greater. Britain could have been getting a breeze from Spain to keep it warm rather than the ocean current that does that job today.

[Fut004]

Nonsense. An civilization that advance would at least take a GPS system with them.

Again, you're making the error of thinking that all/any "advanced" civilizations would have to progress in the exact same way that we did.

[TC]

Again, you're making the error of thinking that all/any "advanced" civilizations would have to progress in the exact same way that we did.

Yeah I'd pretty well shit myself if they found a McDonald's logo at the bottom of the Atlantic...lol ( albeit it may have been called McLantis)

[MHz]

Assuming the floating island came from the north and grounded out while still north of the pass into the Med Sea there should be roads and such going to where the shore was that far back, You might not find any logos but the roads and parking lots might still be there, once we can see through the silt.

[lycanox]

Again, you're making the error of thinking that all/any "advanced" civilizations would have to progress in the exact same way that we did.

There aren't much other ways an advanced civilization can realistically behave. As the tech tree in this world is universal for everybody on this planet.
Lots of inventions require previous developed technologies. And there is plenty of technology that is too simple or to basic to be simply ignored.

There are also only a limited place where they would be able to get certain materials. So we can also with a high probability predict that the civilization would have to have contact with certain areas in the world to reach a certain level. Or have to live in certain areas of the world.

And in the end, we are still talking about humans here. Which behavior is also pretty predictable.

So yes, we can predict the behavior of an culture to a large degree.

[nedcoates]

[QUOTE=MHz;425494]I hope this expert gets moved up in his field, Abd'el Hakim Awyan.

Thank you very much for the lead and link Mhz. :)