Alternative energy

[pico]

I am in the process of building a solar powered shed, and wanted to know if anyone else has ever messed with solar panels. I have decided to go with 40 Watt panels, as they are less expensive than the bigger ones, yet not much more than the 15 watt panels usually found on sale locally. So far I have the one 40 watt panel, a 75amp 12v battery, and a small inverter that is around 150 watts. The inverter will be upgraded when I have more panels, and I plan on getting another 3 of the 40 watt panels in the next month or so. I plan on using this to power 2 floodlights in my backyard, charge my cordless power tools, and perhaps run a water pump in the future.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. So far, the battery has cost $110, the 40 Watt panel was $113 shipped, and the inverter was already owned to power a playstation 2 for the kids for road trips. To get a real inverter, I am guessing I will need to crank out another $100. I think I will be able to get another 3 panels for around $300 shipped, and I also need to get a battery controller and a panel that will tie in all of the solar panels for a simple connection. If I grow this system to be larger, I will also need to pick up more batteries, but then I would likely be able to perhaps run a small fridge and more stuff from this. Anyway, any help is much appreciated.

[Anarch]

Can I be your farm hand?

[pico]

I do not have a farm, but if you want to be my yard bitch, I can have you come and weed the area.

[Ningishiddza]

You'll need an alternative in the event there's a huge freaking EMP blast, otherwise your solar panels will just look pretty reflecting the Sun's glare.

Also, make sure people like me aren't around. I intend to shoot solar panels for shits and giggles (and target practice).

[Anarch]

I do not have a farm, but if you want to be my yard bitch, I can have you come and weed the area.

Farm hand, I can do that. Household helper ...sure,

Yard bitch, Thats a line.

Guess I'll just dig in here.


besides I want to grow weed not pull it!

[Tired Old Man]

Plan on investing a lot more money for your battery bank. You can do a little learning on line. Here is a start.

http://www.freesunpower.com/battery_designer.php

Any search for 12 volt battery bank should help you. Now as to inverters. Volts x amps = watts. Your flood lights are what ? 100 watts each. So that is a easy one, you need at least a 200 watt inverter. Cordless power tool lead back to the type of inverter your buy. Pure Sine wave or modified sine wave. Pure sine wave is the best but also a lot of $$$$. Most of what you see on the market are modified sine wave. Not good to use on nickel cadmium batteries and can cause problems with electronics. Computers , TV .
But a modified sine wave will work for most things. Say you have a 120 (ac) volt water pump that draws 10 amps. You will need a 1200 watt ( minimum ) power inverter. Always go with a larger power inverter. The part I never get right is amp hours and usage from the battery bank. Say I have 2 seventy amp hour batteries hooked up to give me 140 amp hours. I should be able to run a 100 watt light for 14 hours. And that is what I get using an online amp hour calculator.

http://www.alternate-energy.net/batteryamphours03.html


It never works....... I don't remember all the numbers but on my last try I should have been able to run a 1500 watt heater for 30 minutes on the setup I had. It only worked for about five minutes. Somewhere the math didn't work. But don't let that stop you from using solar power. Get a BIG Battery Bank....lol. I have two ( had, now only one ) deep cell batteries hooked up to a 12 volt panel to maintain a charge. If nothing else I have a spare battery to put in my truck fully charged. If the power goes out I can hookup 12 volt LED lights that I have. A larger battery bank and the right inverter can do many things. The solar panel setup you make will determine how long it takes to charge the battery bank.

I still haven't had the time to investigate ground batteries but hope to get to it soon. Two different metal rods planted into the ground will produce power. Not a lot of power but power that can be used to charge batteries. Something to think about.

[pico]

I plan on using LED flood lights, so the wattage used is much lower than incandescent bulbs. I do want a few more batteries... they seem to be the most expensive component.

Ningi, if you plan on shooting my solar panels, be prepared to take a few rounds in your direction. Actually, they are not visible from my street, and you would need to be already trespassing to see them.

[pico]

BTW, using that calculator, I figure for what I plan at the moment, I should be almost there. If I get the 4 total 40 watt panels, and then perhaps 1 or 2 more batteries, I should be there. I could even run a mini fridge off of this setup.

[Tired Old Man]

BTW, using that calculator, I figure for what I plan at the moment, I should be almost there. If I get the 4 total 40 watt panels, and then perhaps 1 or 2 more batteries, I should be there. I could even run a mini fridge off of this setup.

Like I said the run time was the hard part for me. If I understand this right 4- 40 watt panels = 160 watts a day. Not a lot of power. As for Ning I hope he looks a lot like a squirrel . Pico look into ground batteries. Cost might a better choice. Crap...it is called a earth battery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery

[pico]

I went back to the store and picked up another 2 of those batteries. That gives me a total of 225 amps.... still not a huge amount, but it should be sufficient. These batteries were on sale for $20 off of their regular price, and it ended tonight... so I figured I can always return it in a few days if I find a better deal. Anyway, so I am now in $330 + $20 tax on these, and still need a few components and wires to get the system up and running. I went ahead and placed the order for the additional 3 panels, and will likely add another 4 in the near future, which I am thinking might allow me to snake a line into the house to run my PC. I also ordered a book on solar power setups, so hopefully I can use this to get more ideas. If the setup works good, I might integrate a wind turbine generator into the mix, since Iowa has moderate winds enough of the year. I saw a 1600 watt wind generator built in Missouri for under $500, which would likely allow far more power than I could ever afford going pure solar.

[Ningishiddza]

As for Ning I hope he looks a lot like a squirrel

Wide-scale natural disaster is an opportune time for revolution, and a great way to implement permanent changes. Anyone would be a fool not to take advantage of such a situation, and you can rest assured many will try to take advantage of the situation.

Even if your intent wasn't to initiate revolution, then in an Armageddon-style disaster, un-assing people is to your advantage. The simple fact is, you need labor for security, for food production, for scavenging, and for general construction, repair, maintenance and crafting, you know, making things you need that you can't get through scavenging.

You think I'd let 120 people hide in an apartment complex? No way. I'd burn shower curtains in the HVAC system and gas them out or torch the building. The cream of the crop comes with me, the rest can go be a liability to some other faction or wander aimlessly around the ruins, or they can off themselves.

So no one will be sitting in their McMansion with their solar panels. I'll be taking the panels, or destroying them.

[pico]

Like I said the run time was the hard part for me. If I understand this right 4- 40 watt panels = 160 watts a day. Not a lot of power.

TOM... it is my understanding that since my solar panels are all 12 volt panels, 160 Watts is not a bad amount of power. A 1000 Watt gasoline powered generator can power some smaller things, and when you have these 160 solar watts charging on the 3 batteries that have a combined 225 Amp hours, then feeding into a 2000 watt dc/ac inverter with a 3000-4000 watt peak load, it will allow me to run some stuff for a bit of time... not an always on solution here, but it should allow me to run some stuff on a limited basis with the current setup/plan.

Looking into this more, I will in fact need to get some more batteries, and I am not investing a bunch at the moment in the inverter, as I am not planning on powering microwaves, ovens. Better power inverters are true sine wave, whereas the one in my plan is a modified sine wave, which should work, but the power produced is not always as stable.

[Tired Old Man]

So much to learn grasshopper.
If I am not mistaken a 40 watt panel is rated per hour. And that is with the best sunlight. So it would take one hour to put a 40 watt charge into a battery. A generator rated at 1000 watts puts out 1000 watts constant power. So I'm not sure if a 40 watt panel will light a 40 watt light bulb.
Pico I am not trying to stop you from learning and doing a solar panel. Maybe save you some money ? Do a lot of reading online before you spend a lot of money. My small panels are said to only maintain a charge but will not charge a battery. Bull crap. A 12 volt deep cell battery is fully charged at around 12.60 to 12.80 volts. It might take a couple of months but my panels will bring a battery at 12.0 volts up to 12.80 volts.
Now the most important question is what do you hope to do .


BTW, using that calculator, I figure for what I plan at the moment, I should be almost there. If I get the 4 total 40 watt panels, and then perhaps 1 or 2 more batteries, I should be there. I could even run a mini fridge off of this setup.

Now you have to figure out how long it will take to charge your battery bank with your panels. If volts x amps = watts then watts divided by volts = amps. I think ? 12 volts divided by 140 watts = 3.3 amps. If you have three batteries at 70 amp hours each wired in series you would still have a 12 volt system but also have 210 amp hours. At 3.3 amps per hour it would take 63.63 hours to charge your battery bank. 2.6 days. Say your mini fridge draws 138 watts. According to the calculator you can run you fridge for 15 hours. More panels ? Mo Money..... Still great IMO for led lighting.

I really need to find the time and try doing the earth battery thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery

[pico]

Here is the formula for one 40 watt panel that I bought.

If the 40 watt solar panel received 5 hours per day of full sun, then you would have:
2.57 amps (40W panel) X 5 hrs sun = 12.85 amp - per/day
12.85 X 12V = 154.20 watt - per/day.

If that is correct, then multiplying that x 4 would bring up the power somewhat, and being that the lighting used would not be incandescent, I think the additional power going to the cordless tools keeping them charged when needed I should have plenty of juice. Should the need arise to run more powerful items, then I would need to evaluate it.

I almost forgot, my home uses around 12000 watts per day, or 12 KW. There is no way with my current lifestyle I could go solar alone. I want to look into the wind generators, as I keep seeing these for around $500 plus the cost of the mounting pole and ties and wires for a 1600 watt peak generator. Being here in the midwest, we get lots of wind. I think that is the cheapest way to add more potential cheaply. Also, the wind blows at night, so power has the potential to be generated at night and in storms.

[one14am]

I am waiting for Rossi's E-cat technology to be revealed further. He keeps passing the science skepticism tests. If his device is solid it spells doom for not only oil but for solar and battery technology. Power companies will die since not even their lines will be needed. The only remaining technology that will be useful will be gassification due to the fact that getting rid of our waste will always be necessary and we might as well get energy and char from it.

[pico]

What ever happened with the inventor of the gyroscope based generator? I had seen stuff on his generator for over 20 years, but it never comes to market. I would love to have that machine making free energy, and the day that comes out would be a bad one for all energy companies providing energy to homes and businesses.

[pico]

Okay, newest update. I had put in an offer on a power inverter on ebay, but it was not accepted. I have since ordered a true sine inverter... damn things are pricey. Mine is over $500, but it should allow me to use not only power tools and such, but anything electrical I own. Some modern appliances with microprocessors will not handle the cheaper inverters sold for automotive use. Anyway, I also came back from menards after returning some stuff I had purchased but did not need. Anyway, I decided to buy another 2 batteries, so now I have 5 identical 75 amp batteries. I have the wires to hook them up, and with the 160 watts with the panels, I have decided to go with a hybrid system. I am going to make sure I can install a wind turbine, and barring some covenant restrictions against their use, I will try and get a 3 blade 800 watt model. The ones I have been looking at have blades designed to move thru the air easier, resulting in less noise than traditional ones. They also have been tested to withstand 95 mph winds, and have a power rating that is measured off of around 30 mph wind speeds. I can think I should easily get half of that on a regular day, as I live in a very wind prone area. Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/800-watt-12-volt-FALCON-MACH-3-Wind-turbine-generator-/280664689815?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8897139274228079256) is a link to the one I have my eye on.

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Solar-Wind-Turbine-Generator-Charge-Load-Controller-/150382036204?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230377c4ec) is a link to the controller I am looking at buying. I want to be able to expand the system if needed without having to scrap expensive equipment. This piece would allow me to tie in wind and solar, and would have enough room to add in many more panels or 2 or more wind turbines. This same company also makes load resistor heaters, which I am thinking about to handle the excess power to protect the batteries. Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/45A-12V-675-Watt-Diversion-Dummy-Load-Resistor-Heater-/180482551677?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a05992f7d) is a link to the unit I might pick up, which would act as a heater in the shed when temps drop up here in Iowa.

Anyway, I hope to get some pictures up after the weekend installation begins. I am using some scrap lumber I have to make a battery rack, and will make a closet in the shed to house all of this equipment, which will be insulated and also have a vent. Anyway, any suggestions always appreciated. After looking over my electric and gas bills, I know that solar alone would never work for me. I would need 205 40 watt panels to handle my monthly output on less demanding months with my current energy consumption. Wind stands a much better chance, but still, it would cost many $,$$$'s of dollars to get the system done right. I think the best part of what I am doing is making my family and I think about how much energy we really need. Hopefully, it will start saving us money this month just my adjusting our habits.

[Tired Old Man]

I know it would be an added cost but check with your State about selling the power you generate back to the power company. I think that means adding a separate electric meter to your house. You can use this to lower you electric bill. One lady that calls a radio show in Orlando only pays around $16 a month on her electric bill. Granted she might have spent 10 grand or more to set it up.
As to energy use in you home the water heater I believe is the high dollar item. If you can do solar hot water go for it. Another option is the Tankless water heater . I might go that route when my 40 gallon water heater dies.
Your on a good start Pico for a great emergency backup system. Say it is summer time and your power goes out. You'll have lights, radio, and computer if needed. And depending on the size of your regular refrigerator you can even save the food you have and keep the beer cold for a few days. Add a small generator and you setting good.

[pico]

That is the next thing I will likely buy once the above mentioned items are picked up. I have my eye on a 5500 watt gasoline powered one, but would prefer to go diesel, as the fuel will likely last much longer.

[Tired Old Man]

That is the next thing I will likely buy once the above mentioned items are picked up. I have my eye on a 5500 watt gasoline powered one, but would prefer to go diesel, as the fuel will likely last much longer.

So much to learn. Is the 5500 watt rated at full power for both 120v and 220v ? I had a 5000 watt generator that only gave 2000 watts on the 220 and 3000 watts on the 120 volt. It makes a different on use. As to diesel your looking at a welding machine. Not a bad option.

[pico]

Here (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200416440_200416440) is a link to one of the generators I am looking at buying. It is a bit pricey, but I could use this in the winter easily if we have a winter storm. Diesel keeps much better, and this one has a 12 hour run time, meaning I could have a pair of space heaters and a a few other appliances running just off of this generator... plus I could charge my solar batter bank off of this in a half hour of less.

[pico]

Well, I got a late start due to helping my folks with some furniture. I ended up building my frame to hold 3 panels, and will be buying 2 more 40 watt panels to go on another frame that will carry 3. I went with Aluminum square tubing and fabricated my frame with the aid of a chop saw, drill press, and bench grinder. It took me a little time to get it right, as I was not sure how to make this and had no plans to help me. The panels individually are not too heavy, but when you have 3 together, the weight gets close to 40 lbs. It still is not too bad, but remember one slip and you will have an expensive mess on your hands. Also, remember your weather conditions. We have strong winds in Iowa, so I used aluminum instead of wood. Even better would have been steel, but that is a pain in the ass to drill compared to aluminum, plus it would need to be painted to protect it.

Anyway, I quit for the day, as I am planning on cooking some chicken and sausage on the grill. I will get the panels up tomorrow if my wife gives me the thumbs up. I have the inverter, the 5 batteries, but still need to have my battery controller and the heater delivered, plus I will be going to the hardware store to buy a small breaker box to act as my distributor, since I want my panels to run in 12V. They will all be fed into the breaker box, and one line will then be sent into the battery controller. This will give me a 20 amp breaker for added protection.

While a work in progress, I am thinking about potentially taking this north to North Dakota and getting it enlarged. I would likely be able to be 100% off grid with the addition of 2 wind turbines for winter use, with a combination of heating oil and propane.

[Tired Old Man]

I should be doing this. Hell I'm in Florida.
Pico keep it up and let us know how it works.
So many links / web pages I should have saved.

[pico]

I spent a few beers and a couple of hours trying to figure out a good mounting setup. My shed is facing northeast, so I put the panels not in the best configuration. I thought about setting them up to be able to be adjusted, but since they are already not facing south, I said to hell with it. I'll just need to add the extra panels to get my solar power, and since there is nothing in my neighborhood covenant about alternative energy, I will go ahead and get a wind turbine generator. I will pick up the 800 watt type, as the ones beyond this have too great a diameter and you really need to have them around 40-50 feet in the air. Mine will likely only be 25-30 feet, so I would never be able to get the peak performance and would likely not get as much energy from the system as I could with a smaller unit, as you need more wind speed to get the turbine moving.

Anyway, I will hopefully take pictures tomorrow and get them uploaded for viewing. My garden has also been coming along, and I need to till my last area one more time to get my last batch going. The area is around 12'x13', so it should be able to handle a few rows.

[pico]

Well, I was not able to get the panels up yesterday... other chores and mother's day took priority at my house. Anyway, It should not take too long to get the panels up, but I need a 2nd set of hands, so they will likely not be up until next weekend. Anyway, I have a lowball offer on another 6 40 watt panels, which will likely be rejected, over one ebay. If it does, I will likely put in an offer on a wind turbine generator, and have a hybrid system going. The battery charge controller has not arrived yet... should be in today or tomorrow, and it is large enough to handle a much larger system.

Anyway, I'll keep ya'll posted

[Tired Old Man]

I want pictures ....lol. I had plans on doing some small solar projects but never got around to it. Once I get my house paid off I might do something. Wind power in Florida wouldn't be good. Even if it was my yard is to small. I wouldn't mind trying to build a system that could power my PC and TV. My first thought was to wire my house for separate lighting using LED lights. That might be the first one I try. One room at a time.


Being from Florida I have to ask if the cold weather will affect your batteries. And if you planned on that.

[pico]

The cold will affect the unsealed types more than the sealed ones, but even the sealed batteries I have can be damaged if the cold goes to low. That is why I am installing a heating type of dump unit. It should provide enough heat in the shed to not have to worry about the unit suffering cold damage. The heater will be on a switch that will turn it off during the summer and fall, sending excess juice elsewhere.

[Tired Old Man]

WTF ?
I just might have to do the PC thing first. I have a battery backup on my PC. The power company here seems to flick the power off then on so fast my PC shuts off before the backup works. Second time this has happened in the past 2 weeks. My PC shuts off and the power switch does nothing. I have to unplug it for 20 seconds then plug it back in. I might want to check the battery back after I post this.


Update
Can't figure this one out. I have my PC and Monitor on the battery backup. I unplugged the power and the monitor stayed on but the PC shut down. I was able to restart it without having to unplug it . With summer storms coming I just might have to do the solar and battery bank for my PC. How many bad shut downs can you do before you need a new pc ?

[Tired Old Man]

I had some free time today Pico and did the you tube search on alternative energy. From hydrogen gas to magnetic motors. I remember a news story that said solar panels in five years would be able to power a house at a fraction of today's cost. And that made me wonder...

Would it be allowed to happen ? Ok that would be a different thread,lol. I even saw a video with nails in a tree that produced a small amount of power. The next really big step in solar or wind power will be a better battery. Storage. Even with hydrogen gas the problem is storage.

[pico]

I am looking into ways to be 100% off the grid in a home I recently bought in North Dakota. It is a small 2 bedroom setup with 1 bathroom, so it is not very large. With a large propane tank, I am looking into propane fridges and instant water heaters. I am thinking solar air heaters for supplemental heating, if not total heating. The home uses heating oil, so I am thinking about ways to minimize its use. Solar panels could easily power a well pump, as can a wind turbine.

Anyway, the first thing I did was scrap my root cellar idea for my home here in Iowa, and will be heading north in a couple of weeks to start work on the home. I am replacing the asphalt roof with a metal roof, which will allow me to collect clean rain water. Also, it is low maintenance. I am also going to gut the home and replace the exterior walls with an additional 2x6 stud. The added space will allow me to have r25 or perhaps even r30 insulation in the walls. While making the rooms a bit slimmer, the energy savings should be substantial. I will be blowing insulation into the attic space to make it roughly 20" think. This should help with the efficiency. I also plan on replacing all of the windows with energy efficient argon filled windows. Going with high efficiency products is far cheaper than going with more solar panels and such. Anyway, I need to survey the area when I get there and will likely order 2 wind turbines of the 1500+ watt type to aid the solar panels. I need to plan it all out, but I am going to likely go with a solar panel setup of around 800 watts, and will also have this setup as 24v or 48v... not sure which yet, but leaning towards 24v. I am also looking at 6v deep cycle batteries and will have to build a battery house to contain all the stuff. Anyway, I will have a busy summer, but hopefully when finished will have a home 100% not reliant on grid power.

My weekend plans are to get the 4 panels up on my shed, and get the wiring finished. It is supposed to rain again tomorrow, and winds are expected thru Monday. We'll see if this happens... but it is not looking good.

[dwbeaufort]

If I were looking to be "off the grid", I would look underground. Underground, or built into a hillside has many benefits, The biggest of which is constant temperature. It's easier to control temperatures at variances of around 15 degrees than the extremes you going to run into with 4 walls exposed to the elements.
Built into a hillside leaves 1 wall exposed and with today's building technologies the water/damp you get underground is nonexistent.
Location is all important here. if you want electric for a long period of time forget batteries. they self destruct with use... with the best batteries available to the general public you may get 2 years out of em...that's if your extremely conservative. I'm assuming you using lead/acid. The plates wear out. Constant discharge/recharge....

A motorcycle battery will start your car for a short period of time... the more you deplete the battery between recharges the faster it wears out...

Back to location.. situate yourself close to a small but steady stream. build a waterwheel powering a small generator... be prepared to rebuild the wheel or make it portable so you can move it during storms....then you have some electric. not alot but some.

location location location. thats what survival is about
if your looking for a little comfort go undergound, use todays tech to make it comfortable, at least till you can adapt to whatever made you move underground.....heh, where did our early ancestors live in caves... they built small shelters for hunting but the lived underground

[pico]

Actually, with a battery controller that is of the higher and more technologically sound type, you can have your batteries only discharge 30% or even less. This will keep your batteries lasting upwards of 10 years.

[david134]

Hey bud. I just moved to AZ. to build a solar plant and am trying to learn all i can. One hint that alot of locals gave me was to look into golfcart batteries. They say that they last a long time, take the heat, and are much cheaper. Hope to be more help as i learn more. We are just now getting poles up, but should have electricans soon. Any questions I can ask for you?

[pico]

I have read those golf cart batteries are great. I just returned all of my sealed batteries today and bought marine batteries from walmart. They are about the same size, but all have 115 amp hours and cost $79 each. They charge $9 when you are not bringing in a battery for exchange... kind of bullshit, but still cheaper. I decided to run a heating system in the shed, so the batteries will likely not freeze with being in an insulated portion.

I am likely to be able to install my panels tomorrow, so pics should be forthcoming soon.

david134... let us know how it goes out there. How many kilowatts will the plant be? Here in the midwest, it is wind farms, not solar panels... but I think for me having the hybrid setup is the way to go.

[pico]

Okay... high winds prevented me from getting the panels on the roof, but all the rest is in. I tested everything out minus the wind and was able to power up my circular saw. The inverter showed it was around 550 watts, which was when the trigger was fully depressed. I ran the cabling to the solar panels using stranded 12 gauge wires. These ran down 1 1/2" schedule 80 PVC, into my breaker box. Before making the connection, I added a blocking diode I crimped in the positive line, about 6" before the beaker. Then, using 6 gauge stranded, I fed the power into the battery controller. I was running out of daylight, so I was able to mount the various parts on either plywood or cement fiberboard. Then, I was able to quickly connect all to test, and feel pretty good about getting the rest done in a timely manner. I am modifying the brackets for the solar panels to support another row below for future ones. I should then be able to simply snake another few pairs of wire thru the 1 1/2" PVC and be set. The one thing I did not do but probably should have was to run the wiring for the wind turbine. I was unsure how high I would mount it, and also what gauge wiring I should use. I am thinking 10 gauge for the turbine. This should keep efficiency pretty high, even if the length of the run is 25' - 35'. Anyway, I also picked up a new digital camera, so pictures will likely be available tomorrow afternoon of the progress so far.

[Tired Old Man]

Not that I have enough wind in Florida . But I am interested wind power. Pico did you take into consideration wind power noise ? My guess is one wind generator on a few acres of land should be no problem.

[pico]

You need to get the angled blades that have a bend at the tips. These reduce the noise a bit. I think the noise can be overcome significantly with the proper blade design.

[Tired Old Man]

I think they are getting better with the noise. But I have read some bad stories about noise. And then you have the dead bird thing....
But hey when it comes to life , so sorry birdie.
I would love to see wind and solar power used to produce alternative energy. This might be something to add into your thinking later on Pico.
A fuel source will almost always be needed. From ethanol to methanol to hydrogen. A ready fuel source is a must.

[pico]

The bird killers are the wind turbines with clear blades, or those that have blades that can become somewhat blended with the sky under certain circumstances. I have a unit I plan on installing that is coming bare. I will need to paint it, and plan on making the coil cover be about the same color as my home, and the blades will be the same color as the trim on the home. Then, on the tips of the blades, I plan on painting a large black tip on each blade, with either a red or yellow stripe in the middle of the black portion. This is kind of like what WW2 planes had on their propellers.

Menards (midwest hardware store like Home Depot) has a 5500 watt gas generator on sale for $300, so I might buy that and keep around 50 gallons of gas on hand to keep my battery bank charged.

BTW, I returned my sealed batteries and purchased marine batteries at Wal-mart for $79 each. They have more amp hours per battery, so at present I have 345 amp hours with the 3 batteries, and will be buying another 3 over the weekend. This should give me enough stored power to keep my shed going, along with possibly my PC and some other smaller appliances, so the need arise. If I have close to 700 amp hours in my battery bank, this is likely enough to use on a small cabin. Anyway, all of my wiring is in place, but with crappy weather this week, and more expected for the weekend, who knows when I will get my stuff fully installed. I will have spent around $2,500 on getting my 160 watts of solar power, along with the batteries, controller, resistors, inverter, batteries, wind turbine, wiring, lumber, and all other miscellaneous stuff. It is a smaller setup, but the cost is not too high. I can also add on very easily with my setup, which is something that needs to be considered.

[Tired Old Man]

That's a large investment for some people, ( me ) . But like I said a great start. Now as to the gas generator what happens when you run out of gas ?
OK Pico I'm thinking EOW here. Or at least shit, no more gas. A ready liquid fuel is a must or a way to make it.
Ethanol or Methanol is not that hard to make if you have heat. Hey I am in Florida. I am sure I can make some just using sunlight.
Natural distillation ( solar power ) . But then I would have the problem of making a generator run using either one of them . It is not the same as gas.

Solar or wind is great with a battery backup. Generators need fuel. A fuel that will not eat the rubber gaskets as ethanol will. OR a generator made to use them. In the summer time you can make fuel for the winter. Just a thought.......

[Luxeon Star]

I have a few solar panels. About a year ago i did an experiment where i used a 20 watt panel and a small 4 amp charge conroller to charge a junk car battery (the battery was one that had to be replaced since it would no longer start my car) I ran a 5 watt 12 volt fan made for camping for a couple of weeks, 24 hours a day. from this experiment i found that the maximum continous drain on the battery is one fourth the wattage rating of the panel.

I also have a very small and hard to see 5 watt panel on the roof. one of the thing i use this one for is to charge my capacitor (no batteries and no cranking or shaking - forever lights) flashlights.

[Traveler]

Ok I did not read all the posts but in case someone did not mention it. When you get to a 40 w panel and up you need to start to think about voltage regulators because you do not want to over charge your batteries or boil them dry. I did that with a ten watt panel once but that was in the tropics.

You can put a much larger inverter on the battery if you only use it once in a while because the solar panel will keep charging and accumulating energy in whatever battery you connect it to. For example you can run a microwave oven off a 40 w panel and a 1 kw inverter if you are only going to use the oven once or twice a day to cook a frozen dinner. 4hours charging time makes up for 10 minutes running time.

[Vuall]

The trouble with solar power is, if SHTF is brought about through volcanic action or meteor impact, there isn't going to be much sun getting through the dust clouds for quite a while.

I'm surprised no one had brought up Hydrogen fuel cells yet. This would make more sense for an all encompassing SHTF scenario.

[TC]

Horizon makes a nifty 120W unit. http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/portable_power.htm

[pico]

I should have updated over in this thread, but here is the latest. I have4 40 watt solar panels and an 80 watt panel on my roof of my shed. They have kept my marine batteries topped off, and have begun dumping extra energy into a 6 cap. heating block, which should keep the shed above freezing in the winter when in use. I have these hooked thru a battery controller to keep them from getting fried, and this controller is good for 160 amps. The dump heater is good for 675 watts, and the inverter is a 2000 watt continuous pure/true sine inverter. This setup is not designed for any long term battery drain, as my batteries only have 345 amp hours, but I can have enough battery charge to run small appliances, keep my cordless power tools topped off or recharge them, and also run some higher drain power tools for short bursts.

I purchased a grid tie inverter that has a 300 watt capacity that I plan on having connected to a switch. Perhaps once a week I could top off the battery components, and the rest of the time have my system tied into the grid. I also plan on getting a wind turbine that will tie into my system. What my thoughts are perhaps would be to have the wind turbine tied into the grid continuously, and have the solar on a seperate system. If things go south, I could easily tie into the battery system. Also, I plan on buying 3 more batteries in the coming week, which would make my system much better for longer term use.

As far as having another system beyond these, I am not sure how well some of the other types would work. Solar is expensive, but is quiet. Wind is far cheaper, but is noisy and some areas lack consistant winds(lucky for me the midwest has plenty).

One thing all should look into getting is a kill-a-watt unit that shows how much electricity items use. If you can eliminate phamtom loads and adjust your lifestyle minimally with some useful products, you can get your monthly energy usage down significantly. I figure if grid tied, my basic system can save me roughly 2 kWatts per month in the winter... and about 3.5 in the summer. This does not make me save much money, as a kilowatt costs only $0.083. I figure that if I also add a timer to my hot water heater and wrap it, get a new irobot vacumm cleaner that does the work for me, and turn off the surge protector switches on my televisions, while adding a strip to my microwave, and unplugging kitchen appliances, my winter Kwatt usage will drop significantly. I have already put in low flow rate shower heads and faucet aerators, which has allowed me to keep the hot water settings lower. My goal is to have a kilowatt usage of no greater than 400 in the winter and 750 in the summer. That is not bad for a family of 5 with 4 flat screens (1 is a PC monitor), a desktop PC, air conditioning for a 2400 sq ft home, and all the bells and whistles that come with modern living.

[Luxeon Star]

If anyone here is thinking about trying out a little solar power, there are a few good deals here:
http://www.ul-solar.com/

On sale now 30 watt $99 and free shipping.
45 watt $119 and free shipping.

Also anyone thinking about buildind a capacitor flashlight:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18107

two 2600 farad capacitors for $35.00

with a 5 watt panel, a regulator circuit to drop the voltge to 2.4 volts and a big capacitor flashlight you have at least some lighting for the next 30 plus years.

[pico]

I actually have 3 40 watt UL Solar panels. I like them a lot. I recently picked up an 80 watt for $185, which included shipping. Anyway, explain a capacitor flashlight. Do you have any links for assembly instructions?

[Luxeon Star]

I am planning on doing thread on capacitor flashlights this week. There is a company that makes a tactical capacitor flashlight that is blindingly bright, runs for less than 2 hours and charges in 90 seconds. Perfect for police becuse you can do a quikie recharge in the cruiser using the cigarette lighter jack. Not so good for long term grid outages. The basic parts to making a forever light system based on capacitirs is as follows. Decide if you are going to use a single 2.5 volt capacitor (the correct type to use are known as super caps, ultra caps, gold caps, boost caps, double layer capacitors) or 2 capacitors in series to get 5 volts. I decided to use one capacitor since there are so many circuits and devices to kick the voltage up to drive leds. Next I tried several of those circuits and i built one circuit using what is known as a joul thief circuit. i also tried a 1/2 watt PR2 type LED upgrade "bulb" for 2 to 5 cell mag lights. I put a varialble resitor in line with it to extend capacitor life since this one was used in a 400 farad flashlight. My favorite was taking the circuit board out of a dollar solar lawn light I bought on clearance. The circuit normally runs on 1.2 volts so a current limiting resitor is needed since I am running it on 2.4 volts. Also i added a hi low switch for awitching in and out another resistor into the circuit for extending capacitor life. it works great. Running your basic 10th ot 15th watt led all night long is a slam dunk. Running a phirana led at 20 ma I get a drain rate on the big capacitor (to start) of 70 seconds per millivolt which pencils out to 19 hours of run time. I may try to run it for 19 hours tomorrow since it is a holiday and I will be at home all day. On extended run time I think I will get 32 hours. more info to follow when i get all the info together for a post on capatitor flashlights. got to get ready to go to work now.

[Luxeon Star]

Oops forgot point 3 which is charging the cap. The short version is that I am using an LM350 (if i remember correctly) adjustible voltage regulator with current limiting resitor at the input pin since burning off most of 12 volts to get 2.4 makes the regulator frying hot. A dc to dc converter module would work better but costs way to much for my budget. any way it works. you slow charge the flashlight during the day and run it at night. Cloudy days are no problem since you are burning off 80 percent of you v oltage off of a 5 watt panel any way.

edited for spelling.

[Luxeon Star]

Here is the link for the tactical capacitor flashlight:
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Flashlights/Light-for-Life-Flashlight-UC3400.html

Only $179.99.
Here is the info on run time:
"In only 90 seconds, the UC3.400 Flashlight will go from dead flat to a full charge. This quick recharge allows the light to always be ready. No need to carry multiple flashlights, purchase multiple chargers, or have to remember to charge your light after a long shift. In just 90 seconds, your Light for Life® UC3.400 will be fully charged and ready to produce another 120 minutes of light. Whereas most flashlights begin to lose strength after you initially turn them on, the Light for Life® last for 60 minutes at 90 lumens, cycling down to 25 lumens for 30 minutes and finally 15 lumens for 30 minutes. This keeps you safe in the toughest of conditions."

[pico]

My grid tie inverter arrived this evening as the sun was setting behind trees and scattered clouds. My panels are at a shallow pitch, so they are not in a position to catch those last glimpses in the evening. Regardless, I went out and hooked this up by bypassing the charge controller and batteries. I was getting close to 10 watts at some times, but was averaging likely between 2-3 watts.... not much at all, but then it was at dusk under rather poor conditions. I am looking forward to what tomorrow between noon and 4pm brings. I am hoping for a decent amount of wattage to be delivered from my 240 watts of panels.

[pico]

At 8AM, with my panels facing west, I was getting around 8 watts. Not bad considering the sun is not high at all and my panels are not facing it. I'll update during the day

9:20 AM = 45 watts
10:45 AM = 91 watts

I am hoping the next update will be well over 150 watts around noon

[Vuall]

Photovoltaics are so inefficient unless you are going to use reflectors to increase sunlight collection. You would be much better using low temperature collection of sunlight to heat a water reservoir and use the heat collected to run a heat engine to generate electricity in a usable quantity on demand. Not just a few watts when the sun is shining.

small scale example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVRBKhK-jYU

[pico]

I ended up getting around 180 watts from the unit during the day, but according to the kill a watt, my setup is producing just shy of .5 killowatts per hour.... not sure how the math is being computed. If I can get nearly half a kwatt per hour for 4 hours a day, plus the other times when the power is not at its peak, then it is not a bad little system. My batteries have allowed me to run power tools, and can be considered a partial backup system should I have a weather event knocking out the power.

I am in the bartering phase of possibly buying 10 210 watt kyocera panels, which would take my home much closer to being off grid. This would be a 24 vDC system, so I would likely end up making these on a seperate system.

[Vuall]

I would consider a steam engine as a more practical solution

3kw from burning rubbish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xksDjfLbcQ0

[pico]

That setup is too loud... unless you live by the tracks.

[Vuall]

read the comments, it's exceptionally loud for a steam engine.

[pico]

The only drawback on that is having to supply the system with H2O and stuff to burn. While that might not be an issue in the UK, people get pissed when they smell crap burning. Also, I live around the corner from the city permit inspector, so having a system like that is not feasible for me. The Solar is quiet, and most wind turbines are also low noise if you use the correct blades. I am not saying that the steam setup doesn't have a place, but in a grid up scenario where much alternative energy options are not an option for many urban dwellers, the solar panels are the way to go, followed by wind.

[Vuall]

So power the steam engine with the sun lol

[pico]

Okay... looking things over, I produced just over a kilowatt today. Not bad considering we had a few clouds linger overhead. I also used some less than ideal wiring to get it hooked up, so the numbers might bump up a bit once that is resolved.

I went ahead and agreed to buy 10 24vdc kyocera solar panels that are 210 watt models. These will be mounted on my home, and for the time being I will simply put in a junction box on the roof and run a set of 4 gauge wires down to a grid tie inverter. This should drastically cut my electric bill... we'll see once installed. Anyway, wish me luck. I'll be around $6,500 in the hole once these get installed, if you add the cost of all the installation parts/wires, shipping, and setup in my shed. This will put me on the 24vdc system for the home, and if I decide to add a wind turbine down the road, which I likely will do, I can go with a 24vdc setup there as well.

[Luxeon Star]

The Supercapacitor Flashlight post is over on "Technology" forum.


Here is the link to the original article including text, diagrams and photos in jpeg format:
http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg153/luxstar/

-

[pico]

Well, for a winter project, my son and I are going to build a bunch of smaller solar panels. I picked up 108 of the 3"x6" panel cells. These are new and not the broken types. I picked up the tab and bus wires, and the flux, and lucky for me I already have a soldering iron. I have an older rack shelving system for components for home audio I no longer use, which has 5 tempered glass shelves that are 1/4" thick. I will use this glass, and then use 1.5" angled aluminum for the frames with some GE 100% clear silicone I was able to find for free after rebate. Anyway, I plan on building these and having at least one that will be setup to recharge batteries. Each of these cells puts out 1.8 Watts under ideal circumstances, so I figure this can allow me to get around 12 per shelf. One shelf is slightly larger than the other 4, and would accomodate another 3. Anyway, My thoughts are that 4 would be able to be tied into my roof, and I could wire them to fans I could install on attic vents. I figure it is likely cheaper to simply buy solar panels already done up, as most these days are fairly cheap and come with 25 year warranties, but I figure this will allow me to better understand them and be able to fix any problems in the future if I need to. Also, having this knowledge is good, as the solding iron needed to make these can be only 40 watts, so I could easily build my own if I have the materials on hand should grid power go down (I have an existing solar backup, plus a gas powered generator).

[pico]

Well, today I added a bit of garden to my existing setup, and used the solar power charged batteries to power my miter saw, drill, saber saw, and charge to rechargable drills/drivers. This setup is really neat, but is limited to my battery bank. I am hoping to get nearly a dozen batteries by years end, giving me well over 1200 amp hours.

[Tired Old Man]

I can get so lost so easy....lol. After reading your post I went searching on you tube for hydrogen gas. I still have hope someday it will play a big role.
One thing lead to another and I wound up looking at Windhurst Motors. I was temped to buy a small model used for teaching. But I'll save my money.
And then I ended up reading about the Methernith Machine.

Not trying to derail the thread. I am thinking about alternative energy. Unfortunately it has lead to to the conspiracy thinking. I remember five years ago it was said we would have solar panels that would replace the use of fossil fuels. I wonder.......

I now return this thread to Pico. Keep working on it. I might need your advice someday.

[Tired Old Man]

Damn you Pico ! Now you have me thinking. I know it is not inline with the thread but what can I say.
I really want to look into earth batteries but I am lazy. Hey I'll get to it someday.

I find the concept of a air battery interesting. But I had to take a step beyond that. I have plenty of small magnets I've taken from computers and microwave ovens. Guess what ? If I place them to repel each other I get a voltage. Yes it is small as hell but it is there. I just might have to buy some larger magnets and see what happens.

LMAO.... I couldn't find the wed site I saw before. But they had some very powerful magnets. If I understood it correctly you could kill electronic items within three feet. Not that I would want to do that.

Thank you Pico..... Now I'm going to spend some money and see what happens.
WTF, this could be fun.

[Tired Old Man]

Ouch.....
I tried to replicate the voltage from the repelling magnets and it didn't work. WTF ?
My best guess is I was measuring the voltage from my fingers touching the volt meter probe. Crap......

From everything I read a so called magnet motor is BS. But I still like the concept. I took a old CD player apart toady. I took the small dc motor and mounted it on a piece of plywood. Glued a CD disk on it along with the junk magnets I had around the house. Magnetic motion ? Not a chance in hell. But with little effort I can get .12 to .20 dc volts.
A limited output of the small motor ?

I ordered some stronger magnets to play with. I'm not sure what it might lead to. But on the off chance I find a way to produce cheap electricity would I post it ? Not a chance in hell. I like staying alive.

[GamerGal]

Can't remember where I saw it but some one had an idea.

Hire the people on welfare/unemployment to ride exercise bikes hooked up to generators. This way they get paid and they work out and we create energy!

[Tired Old Man]

Can't remember where I saw it but some one had an idea.

Hire the people on welfare/unemployment to ride exercise bikes hooked up to generators. This way they get paid and they work out and we create energy!

Why do you have to be a ass on the subject ? Sorry about that, I think I saw the same story somewhere.
In the off chance someone found a cheap / green way to produce energy would it be allowed to happen ?

I like solar , I think wind power is.....OK. But I don't see these as a answer to energy. GG if you want to help do something.
If solar is you thing promote it.
Myself ? I'm looking into a energy source that doesn't need battery backup. Go for it GG.

[GamerGal]

What? We have how many millions on welfare and unemployment? We also have an obesity problem. Instead of paying people for nothing, pay them for making energy.

[Tired Old Man]

What? We have how many millions on welfare and unemployment? We also have an obesity problem. Instead of paying people for nothing, pay them for making energy.

Try to stay on subject here GG. Taking people on welfare to ride a bike to produce energy is not an alternative source of energy.
Why do you hate fat people ?

[GamerGal]

It is an alternative form. It is people creating power, not coal or oil.

[Tired Old Man]

The motor I took out of the CD player isn't that hard to spin by hand. So what I currently have is what ????
Using magnets makes it easier to spin.

I would love to find a zero energy solution , but according to law it won't happen. Is there anything in the law that saws you cant help the spin ?

[pico]

There is thast contraption that guy in Florida made that uses gyroscopes and creates enough energy to power a home from an impulse created from a few AA batteries hooked in a series. The device has been around since the early 80's, but he has been unable to get a patent and therefore has not brought it to market.

[Tired Old Man]

There is thast contraption that guy in Florida made that uses gyroscopes and creates enough energy to power a home from an impulse created from a few AA batteries hooked in a series. The device has been around since the early 80's, but he has been unable to get a patent and therefore has not brought it to market.

Like I said. " IF " I found a way to power things. Would I post about it ? Not a chance.

[pico]

Would you at least send me a PM?;)

[Luxeon Star]

Here are a few interesting articles on alternatve energy producion and storage. These were originally posted on the Energy Bulletin web site which by the way has a good search funtion to search past articles. I would highly recommend a weekly visit to the site if you have any interest in peak oil or energy production.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/09/got-storage-how-hard-can-it-be/ energy storage including flywheels.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-06-01/bike-powered-electricity-generators-are-not-sustainable This article confirmed my thinking that an 80 watt solar panel will generate far more energy in a day than i would ever care to on a bicycle.

[Luxeon Star]

This may be of some interest. Storage batteries that last 40 years or longer:

http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/

These are too expensive now but if they become popular in the future they may become more affordable. Just like the cost of solar panels and leds have dropped in price.

[Tired Old Man]

So many things to look at. I love this youtube post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMhAIdqH0Cs&feature=related

It is long and boring as hell at times. But it lead me to think about the term alternative energy.
On a grand scale it would power the world.

For now I could just use GG's fat people riding a bike to power my house. But then I would have to feed them.
That would be a lose of energy.

So what is alternative energy ? I see it as cheap / clean energy. I'll keep looking and post what I find.

[Tired Old Man]

This was interesting. Receiving power from radio waves. I almost remember doing something like this when I was in school. From the YouTube videos you only get a small voltage. Hell I thought it would be fun to try.
So much for Radio Shack...lol. I had to order the 1n34 diode on line. Shipping sucks ! On place wanted $13 . So I ordered 25 of them and with shipping it was $12. Hey if it works I'll make more than one circuit. Anyway here is a You Tube link. OK the video sucks , but It looked like you can get 1 + volts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb0SWBGDySg&feature=related

[dwbeaufort]

Interesting? yes.
Feasible energy source? no.
While he managed to get 1.something volts, how much amperage? Volts is just a measure of pressure/potential, while amperage is a measure of flow. For real work to be done you need amps. Sure, you may be able to series 1000 of these and get 1000 volts but if your only getting .001 amps out of each 1......ohhhh, 1000 of these circuits makes 1 amp at 1000 volts. so if you step the voltage down to 120 with big enough wire to minimize resistance. you would get around 8 amps. Keep in mind I am being very generous with the .001 amp, not having built the circuit.

Also, you may need to spread em out a bit...radio waves have energy, but it is not unlimited. Depending on how much area needed to deploy antenna you could get into some serious resistance in your wire.

[Tired Old Man]

Thank you for you input. I'll let you know about the current when I build one.

[pico]

Amps are not such a big deal if battery storage is involved. The example shows the guy charging a cell phone, so the battery capacity is getting charged for free... and this method would work great in a grid down situation. My big issue is I can order a bunch of the components for this device, but the shipping is outrageous from a site that has them all in stock.

[Tired Old Man]

That was the same issue I had. Shipping. Wait till I get all the parts and build and we will see how good it works. The cell phone part of the video made me think about emergence power also. From nails in a tree ( save the Tree ) to an earth battery even if it is using a flower pot. Not a lot of power but, you might be able to charge a cell phone or battery for a flash light overnight. Got a chain link fence ? An aluminum rod ( copper would be better ) and some wires connecting them will produce a small voltage. I think I had 1. something volts and in the Milli-amps. Being in Florida I would be scared to leave a earth battery hooked up.

Here is a link for you Pico. I bought 25 1n34a diode's for $7 and shipping was $5. That's .52 cents each.

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/index1/In34a.html


Looking online I see a replacement diode. 1n270s. I'll have to call Radio Shack and see if they have it.


Radio Shack sucks.....lol. They don't even have the replacement .

[pico]

That shipping is around half of that charged on the site I was on. Thanks TOM!

[Tired Old Man]

For the fun of it.

Starting to get a light rain here. But I braved the elements and went outside to check on what I posted about. The Earth Battery.
Using my compost pile. OK so it is just a pile of dirt. I place a piece of alumnum metal from a window screen into the ground.
Connected it to my chain link fence. 20 volts ! I don't remember it being that high before. Must be the rain.

I didn't get a amp reading but it might be my meter. I know I had one before. Hell my meter won't read a 1.5 volt battery for amps.
But I can get a amp reading from spinning a small dc motor. I'll have to find a better amp meter.

So for the fun of it, place two different type of metal rods into the ground. I think wet ground is better. Something about facing North and South but....
See what you get.

[Tired Old Man]

That shipping is around half of that charged on the site I was on. Thanks TOM!

Your more than welcome. I placed my order yesterday and got an email saying it shipped today.
I'm waiting on UPS for my magnets today...lol. Any chance of me making a magnet motor that works ?
Slim to nothing. But I'll have fun trying.

[Tired Old Man]

I got my magnets. Now if only I had bought the thing to separate them. This is fun......cough.

[pico]

Does your ampmeter read in milliamps? Perhaps you need to adjust the settings to get the right readout. My 40 watt solar panels produce about 1.5 amps at peak, but since mine are not in the most efficient position, I get less per panel. Having any voltage output is a plus... and 20 volts is pretty damn high... enough voltage to charge a car battery... and likely needing a charge controller in the process to prevent overcharging.

[Tired Old Man]

Was it the rain ? I know the amount of moisture in the ground has something to do with the voltage. I went back out today and checked the voltage on the earth battery. I knew 20 volts didn't sound right. But that's what I had yesterday. Today it was .7 volts. I'll have to try and wet the ground later and see what happens.

I have the same type meter you have Pico. It shows milliamps and can read up to 10 amps. Something might be wrong with it.

[Luxeon Star]

Hello Tired Old Man,
I tried the earth battery thing. About the only thing you will be able to do with this type of earth battery is light up a LED and that’s if you build a joule thief circuit to bump the voltage up. May I suggest that you buy a 5 watt solar panel. You can do a lot more with that than an earth battery.
About a year ago I had to replace my car battery. Instead of turning it in for the core charge when I bought a new battery I kept it. For a few weeks I ran a 5 watt fan off of it 24/7 using a 20 watt panel and a charge controller to charge it up during the day. After that experiment I have been running LED lighting off of it 24/7 for months.
With a 5 watt panel you can charge a car battery without the charge controller. You just need to check the battery with your volt meter to make sure you don’t over charge. I have another car battery and a 5 watt panel. This is how I have been charging it for years and it works fine.
The point is that it is hard to beat a small solar panel and a car battery as far as alternate energy schemes go. It really is the easiest and most reliable way to get something for nothing.

[Luxeon Star]

Here is 5 watt panel with a charge controller and cable for $35.67:

http://www.roughsupplies.com/4546_page_774561.htm

[pico]

That panel is a truly nice little panel. I was thinking about making my own small panel with a small piece of tempered glass I had on hand. With my cells, I would really be making a 7 watt panel +/- .5 watt. The cells I bought at around 1.8 watts each, so putting 4 together would be a small but feasible project. At that price at roughsupplies.com, why bother building one, when you can use those parts to build a larger panel and simply buy it. The charge controller is likely worth $10, so the panel really is not a bad price... remembering that the smaller panels are not the low end cost per watt the larger ones typically offer.

[Tired Old Man]

I have a small solar panel I use to keep a deep cell marine battery charged for emergence. I'm having fun looking into different things. While I like the earth battery, I am in Florida and would have to wonder about lightning.

I'm still waiting on the diode's the make the radio thing. What I am amazed at is how many things can produce a small D.C. voltage. How about a water battery ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-GAvA0YCxE

This one is even more amazing. High Voltage. 10 to 20 kilo-volts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL9FE2A9DB2ECC1D09


Solar panels work. I'm just having for looking into other things.

[Tired Old Man]

Sitting here kind of bored. I want my diodes ! What can I try ? The water battery.
As you can see I got .56 volts and with my meter set on 20 mille amps I got .03 amps.
This was with using city water. I wonder what the well water would do ?


<a href="http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/?action=view&amp;current=DSCF0800.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/th_DSCF0800.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

<a href="http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/?action=view&amp;current=DSCF0801.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/th_DSCF0801.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>



That didn't work on posting. let me try this again.

[Tired Old Man]

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/th_DSCF0801.jpg (http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/?action=view&current=DSCF0801.jpg)

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/th_DSCF0800.jpg (http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/?action=view&current=DSCF0800.jpg)

OK the first one is the amps. Second , volts. I use a piece of stranded wire for the copper. Any 120v power cord. That would be the positive .
Then I used a galvanized wood screw. That would be your negative.

I wonder how long this will last ? Kind of cool. Put about six of these in series and I'm guessing your could charge a Cell Phone.

[Tired Old Man]

Four post in a row. This can't be good. The water battery still had the same voltage after 24 hours. I like that. I think I play more with it. Kind of thinking of making plates like a car battery and see what happens.

I got my diodes. I'm kind of hoping I did something wrong. The best I got was in the milli voltage range. I'll work on it and see what happens.

[pico]

Well, today I found a guy thru craigslist here in Iowa selling tempured glass... so I ran out and took it off his hands. I was able to buy 2 sheets of 3/8" thick glass that measured around 74"x34", which will make two large panels that should be pretty much hail, wind, and pretty much anything proof. At the right angle, it might even be bullet proof(aka ningi proof)... but I am not willing to test that out. I had priced out slightly smaller 1/8" tempured glass, and for a single sheet around 60"x36" would have cost over $150, so I am pretty pumped up over getting these for so little. The only drawback is weight, but still... with an extra pair of hands, it won't be a problem. I just hope I can get everything done before the dreaded winter sets in. If not, I will have a winter project on my hands that will get installed in the Spring.

Update...

The glass measures 76"x34", so I should be able to really get an assload off cells on here. I am thinking close to 240 watts per panel.

[Tired Old Man]

Congrats on your find. I wouldn't mind doing some solar if I had the room and the money. The battery bank alone could be a killer for me.
"Some Day" I want to make a battery power system. Start with something small like my computer or lights. For now I'll play with the water battery power. I have an old car battery with a dead cell. It won't start a car but like Luxeon Star said, I could still use it to play with.

I love working with this.

[pico]

You can buy the panels and get a grid tie inverter to pay you back while the grid is working. Then work on a battery bank and such after the initial panels are in. I wish I had skipped on the batteries and other parts, going strickly for the panels. I could likely have put together a 2kwatt system if I had invested only in panels. Hopefully soon I will have a combined 750+watt solar system, which should kick out close to 3 killawatts per day with my less than ideal westerly facing.

[Tired Old Man]

Some things just don't add up.

I had .56 volts on a one cell water battery. So if I put two cells in series I should have 1.12 volts. It didn't work. So I put six cells in series. Best I got was 1.87 volts with no amps. Sorry Pico but you do needs amps. Volts alone = nothing.

My coffee table looks kind of funny with six mason jars full of water and wires connecting them. There still might be a use for this. A very very slow battery charger.
I'm talking AA 1.5 volt battery. I need to drain one then hook it up and see what happens. Granted it might take a few days to charge one. But what the hell.

In a SHTF world I'll have time to charge a AA 1.5 volt battery. I hope. I'll work on this and let you know.

[pico]

Did you try adding salt to the water? Also, try using a lead fishing sinker, or better still, make a water battery using the ep. salt, distilled water, and lead wrapped in cardboard. I remember doing these in 7th grade science class. Also, you should use stranded wire when making your battery connections. Try using something like 16 gauge or higher wires to get less resistance. It might take some playing with to get the right sized wiring, but if you increase the wire size, perhaps that is what you need. Also, remember to use stranded wire versus solid. To go cheap, simply use audio speaker wire. I am also going to start experimenting a bit in the coming weeks when my pre winter cleanup and winterizing the home is completed.

I have been hearing about a new wind turbine tech coming to the market. It is a vertical style that takes up little room and can power a small home with one unit... double the number for larger homes. The blades are curved and have dimples to decrease wind resistance to allow them to work quietly and generate large amounts of power in very low winds. I need to get some more info of them, but the units cost around $7.5 - $8.5 per unit installed with all the complimentary hardware included in that price. With Uncle Sugar helping to offset the cost, homeowners are likely to put out $3.5-4.5 per unit, and even less if you live in California, paying only around $1k per unit.

[dwbeaufort]

Now that is interesting. I have 2k sq ft with a fairly efficient heat pump. So, 2 would do it? I am too far from the Atlantic to catch the see-breeze but surrounding landscape is flat for miles, so getting above the trees is really all I would need right? Do you have a link so I can check it out?
Thanks

[pico]

The brand is Sauer. Here (http://sauerenergy.com/) is their link. I am looking into this company as an investment, buying their publically traded stock. Just so that is out of the way, at the moment I have no affiliation with this company. I really link their low wind speed start ups, as many areas of the country do not ever get the amount of wind needed to generate the wattage most wind turbines claim they can get. The unit Sauer is bringing to the market does not need to be mounted high at all, so expensive towers are not necessary. Anyway, check them out and see if this might be what works in your situation. I think in many urban areas, wind turbines we have had available would not work due to zoning issues. You need to have a certain amount of land between your wind turbine and your property line, in the event that it falls over. With these needing limited vertical distance from the ground, they might be the only wind powered option for the vast majority of us urban dwellers in the US.

[dwbeaufort]

No link, but the name was enough, after a quick glance at this...I'm like wow. Vertical axis, what a simple concept but...wow. If you were building new you could easily design the building to funnel right to the turbine.
My house is is an L shaped one story and overall is 60' long...that's a fair amount of air blocked that with proper design would capture energy 24/7....have to think about this one.

[pico]

You need to click the word 'Here' in that post for the link directly to their site. Anyway, glad you found it. They are coming to market in the next few weeks hopefully, and while the vertical concept has been around for a while now, it is their low wind and quiet blade design that makes them such a viable option for many.

[dwbeaufort]

What catches my attention here more than anything is the length of the blades. By running the blade parallel to the driveshaft you can get a very large surface area in each blade....
for instance. the ridge of my roof is 60' long. the prevailing wind here is south by southwest and the rear of my home faces south and a few degrees west. overhangs, about 35' are 4', would disrupt the air caught by outside walls but the L shape in the back would still divert most of the air up and over the roof. If I had those blades running the entire ridge....

I would most likely have to position the bulk of the shaft and blades toward the front so as to catch the air in the business part of the blade....hmmm

addon; The little piece and the picture depicts generators. Is that just a term used or are they producing AC?

[pico]

DC generators are what they use... standard generators... likely similar to car PMAs. I am guessing they would be available in 12, 24, and 48VDC setups, but if you were doing a home system, the 24 or 48 volt setup would be the way to go. If you plan on integrating solar, then 24 volt would likely be the key, as you can get a few larger panels and your larger or stackable inverters would all be the same and the tie in would be a bit better.

[Tired Old Man]

I like the concept of vertical wind turbines. I'll wait for the cost to go way down....lol. I still don't think they would work year round here in Florida . But, like you said you can mount them almost anywhere. A couple years back I saw something on mini wind power systems. Haven't seen anything new on them lately.

[Tired Old Man]

You might liked this Pico.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZUmbxzUM4

[pico]

That has a lot of potential.

[Tired Old Man]

I was having a hard time trying to separate two magnets I have. I won the battle, but at a cost. They flipped around and ouch! They got me. LMAO.... First blood.

I've done a lot of looking at alternative energy. Wind, solar, earth, water. There is an answer but I don't know if it will be allowed.

For now, go with what ....pays.

[pico]

Well, I found another person selling the same 3/8 tempered glass but in smaller sizes. I am pickinig it up this afternoon for $70, and once cleaned, I should have enough to have a solar panel roofed greenhouse. I will build the structure from steel tubing, and will have the glass siliconed into place. Where it does not meet up perfectly, as it is all rectangles and squares, I will use cement fiberboard for the north side and the rest will be clear plexiglass panels that I can cut to fit. Anyway, wish me luck on this, as I am trying to get it done before the end of the weekend so I can have a small garden in time for the snow.

[Tired Old Man]

Years ago I wanted to look into making a methane generator. Never got around to it. I did some looking on you tube tonight.
I really don't think I would have enough trash. I know that sounds strange. I still might add this to my list of things to try.

[Red Shift]

Pico! I've read all the way through this thread, what you are doing is brilliant! Truly inspiring stuff!

Only drawback for me? I'm still waiting on these pictures you promised ages ago!

:P

[pico]

Sorry Red... my digital camcorder/camera (Sony DCR-300) won't be recognized by my new PC... and I cannot find the original drivers online. I need to get a new digital camera anyways, so hopefully soon I'll have something to show. I took a bunch of pics of the garden, panels, battery bank, and now glass, but cannot get them off the damn camera, which has the built in 40 gig harddrive.

[Red Shift]

Oh right, bummer dude!

Never-the-less, I eagerly await the pictures!

[Tired Old Man]

OK. Last Saturday I talked to the guy at the car wash about getting an empty drum. I finally made it there tonight to pick it up.
Not so sure if it will work as a methane generator. It has a solid lid with two screw caps. That would make it a pain to clean out or load. If I have the time I plan on digging up my sweet potatoes this weekend. The leaves and any potatoes that are to small could be used as fuel. I'm going to need a lot of trash to fill a 35 gallon drum.

Hey if it doesn't work, I can cut it in half and use it in my garden. This should be fun.

[pico]

Cut one of those screw caps out and install a 4" toilet style flange with screw in plug. It should make removing to get into the barrell much easier. I have 2 blue barrels I picked up that were once at a car wash. A good rinse will remove the old suds, and then you can easily tie them into a gutter downspout for a cheap rain barrel.

[Tired Old Man]

I knew that.....really. I've seen the same thing done on you tube. So I might have to wait on digging up my garden until next weekend. From looking on line even a small methane generator should provide enough gas for cooking and lights. Not so much for heat or running a small engine. As with anything the storage of energy ( methane ) seems to be a problem. The old Mother Earth articles used a car or truck inner tube.

I'll worry about that " if " I produce any gas.

Found this site but you have ti sign up for it. Looks like a lot of good info. I'll let you know how it works out.

http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/free_ebooks_site.html

[Tired Old Man]

I thought I got lucky today. A hydraulic cylinder on my work truck went bad. My first thought was....YES ! I get a day off to go play with my methane generator.
Not a chance...... When you work six days a week, 60 + hours an extra day off can be nice. But the boss hates it when you go home.....lol. Hey it cost him $125 a day even if the truck never moves.

At least I finished the day with only 11 hours and had time to go shopping. I didn't find anything I liked to fit the 30 gallon drum. But I had a different thought on doing the methane generator. A five gallon bucket with lid. The only thing I would need to add is a valve to let the gas out. I know I can find enough organics to fill a five gallon bucket. Not so sure about filling a thirty gallon drum.

The only problem with ME and Lows or Home Depot is..... TOYS ! A new set of screw drivers, a crescent wench, and a set of utility knives. What should have been a $20 trip only cost me $65. Yes I will hide this tools from my daughter.

Once I get this thing up and working ( if ) I'll post some pictures . I still have more to learn about methane gas. Not just making it, but using it.

[Tired Old Man]

A simply water valve on my 5 gallon bucket. Not so simply. Plumbing threads and standard threads don't mix. All I needed was a nut to lock the valve onto the lid.
Could not find one. I have lots of nuts bolts and other crap and I found one that worked. Granted you can't see it because it is on the bottom. Grrrrrr.

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/th_DSCF0803.jpg (http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc352/TiredOldMan1955/?action=view&current=DSCF0803.jpg)

If I had to pick a you tube video, this would be me. GRRRRR. Click on Watch On You Tube.
OK I give up. The video said, click on this so I told you to click on it.
Go Figure. Now it works. Or doesn't....... lol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KJR2hP9nI0&feature=related

But if I really want to do this, I might follow this video.

DON'T LET CT SEE THIS !!!!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HDb1at6dI&feature=related

[Tired Old Man]

Day one. Did you really think I would have methane gas in one day ? No way. The leaf's from my sweet potato plants with the kind of mini sweet potatoes. Add in a couple of apples and some out of date food. This could take a few weeks to produce any gas.
If it works in the five gallon bucket I'll look into expanding it.

[Tired Old Man]

I have gas ! But then again everyone has gas after eating Thanksgiving Dinner.

My methane generator ? Not yet. Hey it takes time.

I hope everyone enjoyed Thanksgiving.

[pico]

Take some titralac and hopefully the leaks will subside;)

I went out to set up my christmas lights on my solar powered shed. I had for the last week been simply sticking with my battery system, keeping them topped off, and found out that my dump load heater was not working, so my batteries were well over the norm, sitting at a charge of well over 15 amps. Hopefully I did not juice them up too far. Anyway, my Xmas lights are currently running strong on there, being regular colored icicle lights... not the LED types. I am running at close to 150 watts continous for 3 hours. Anyway, I am hoping all are having better digestion than TOM, and all have a great time with their alternative energy quests.

I am in the process of cleaning up my basement room, bathroom, and family room/tv area in anticipation of visitors for Christmas, so once done in the next day or so will begin assembling the solar panels I plan on making from components. I will take pictures on my daughter's digi camera and go from there. I will also take some pics of the solar panels and current wiring setup and post in the next few days.

[Tired Old Man]

Take some titralac and hopefully the leaks will subside;)

I went out to set up my christmas lights on my solar powered shed. I had for the last week been simply sticking with my battery system, keeping them topped off, and found out that my dump load heater was not working, so my batteries were well over the norm, sitting at a charge of well over 15 amps. Hopefully I did not juice them up too far. Anyway, my Xmas lights are currently running strong on there, being regular colored icicle lights... not the LED types. I am running at close to 150 watts continous for 3 hours. Anyway, I am hoping all are having better digestion than TOM, and all have a great time with their alternative energy quests.

I am in the process of cleaning up my basement room, bathroom, and family room/tv area in anticipation of visitors for Christmas, so once done in the next day or so will begin assembling the solar panels I plan on making from components. I will take pictures on my daughter's digi camera and go from there. I will also take some pics of the solar panels and current wiring setup and post in the next few days.


LMAO.
I'll have you know my digestion is working normal. It doesn't seem you can say the same for your solar power. : )
As for the pictures your going to post ? I'll believe them when I see them.
What ????

Pico I still like solar power. But you have to admit a methane gas generator is kind of like family. Full of gas....

Happy Thanksgivings.

[pico]

For some reason my dump unit was disconnected. I am not sure how it happened, but it did. Perhaps I need to locktite the threads of the screw holding the wiring in place. Anyway, any unit you can get energy from with table scraps or very limited effort is fine by me. Best of luck with it! As for those pictures, I will post something tomorrow afternoon, if not sooner, just to make all of you guys a believer;)

[pico]

I was looking into having more options for low cost lighting, and decided to buy a couple dozen stands of LED christmas lights to see if I could get some ideas and uses out of them. I purchased some off brands and some phillips brand led lights. I could not find many, since the people in my area obviously knew before I did that the stores had dropped the price to 70%. Anyway, I bought a total of 8 strands of clear icicle lights, and one strand of regular lights. They were all 100 lights, and the brands ranged from 3.7 - 4.8 watts per strand. I took one and covered much of it with aluminum foil, basically making a bowl. This allowed one strand to become a floodlight, which would work well for reading and such. It drew 4.5 watts according to my killawatt meter. I then hooked up 3 strands and they drew under 11.5 watts. This would easily light up a small room, such as a bathroom, and would not overtax my smaller sized battery bank. I am thinking that in a grid down scenario, these lighting strands could very well be a great option to those with the means to power them. An entire home could be lit up and not make a dent compared to incandescent bulbs, and even flourescent bulbs.

I am also experimenting with some led battery powered bulbs, and think these have even more potential. I need to do a bit more reserch, but I think I can rewire the 5 clear strands together and have them directly connected to my battery bank before the inverter, which would mean they would be powered with extreme efficiency.

Lastly, I began building my latest solar panels. I hope to have 3 hinged panels assembled in a few days. I have 12 solar cells per panel, which produce together the 18 volts needed to charge a 12 volt battery. The glass is thick tempered and the frames I am making will be done from cut down 2x4. They will get a piano hinge, and will fold up for easy portability. The glass is thick but not too large, and will accomodate 3 rows of 4 cells. This all totaled will be over 70 watts.

I have the materials to begin making some rather huge panels, but need to wait until the framing is mostly done to assemble them, as I do not want to simply leave them in snow at the moment.

[Luxeon Star]

The recent power outages and news stories about people stuck at home in 100 degree plus temps with no power got me thinking about this thread. A while back i posted about running a 5 watt camping / potable fan 24/7 for weeks using an old car battery, a charge contoller and a 20 watt panel. UL Solar still has several rv kits that would work well for low voltage / low current needs like this:

http://www.ul-solar.com/RV_Solar_Power_Kit_20_Watt_12_Volt_p/stp020p-rv.htm $143.99.


http://www.ul-solar.com/RV_Solar_Power_Kit_30_Watt_12_Volt_p/stp030p-rv.htm $173.99.

Here is one of the fans:


http://www.walmart.com/ip/O2-Cool-8-Battery-or-Electric-Portable-Fan/15992438

it is a brushless dc fan. I have one in my car ( I hacked up the ac adapter to use the cable to plug into yhe cigarette lighter. It works pretty good.


Here is the 85 watt kit from ul solar:


http://www.ul-solar.com/UL_SOLAR_RV_Solar_Power_Kit_85_Watt_12_Volt_p/stp085p-rvu.htm $224.99.

With this one you should be able to run up to 4 fans non stop.

EDIT:

RV solar kits has its own thread now: http://forums.armageddononline.org/threads/35319-RV-Solar-Kits

Dare to prepare.