Does God really care?

[Dhanishta]

:pyth: :angel:

Does God if He/She exists at all, really care? I think not. Otherwise if he/she did care then the world wouldn't be in such a mess. What do you think?

[DarkAce]

It's put into perspective of your own view of God. Do you think he's a babysitter, here to guide you along every step of the way?
How is it God's fault?
It's our own.
No need to shift blame on imaginary forces.

[Doomer]

A much stronger case cab be made that no, he doesn't care than yes, he does. If he doesn't care then that's the same as saying he doesn't exist which is as close to truth as you're likely to get.

The old saying "God helps the man who helps himself" says it all.

[DarkAce]

Why would a stronger case be made for no? What are you equating this with, the christian concept and tenets of God?
Case can be pretty equally made for both.

[Dhanishta]

Why would a stronger case be made for no? What are you equating this with, the christian concept and tenets of God?
Case can be pretty equally made for both.
Not necessarily christian but a supreme god as universal. After all there is only said to be one god. Its the religious institutions that make differentiations.

[Doomer]

Why would a stronger case be made for no? What are you equating this with, the christian concept and tenets of God?
Case can be pretty equally made for both.

This is a cause and effect reality. There is nothing else.

[playmaker88]

Once again we have a limited poll. How can I vote for either answer if I don't believe in the existence of God in any other form than the imagination of humans who cannot accept that when they die it's all over?

[Dhanishta]

Once again we have a limited poll. How can I vote for either answer if I don't believe in the existence of God in any other form than the imagination of humans who cannot accept that when they die it's all over?

This poll was not designed for atheists but only for those who acknowledge that there might be a god. Perhaps you could start your own poll if this one is not satisfactory. Maybe you can find out if people believe in the devil. :burnin: :uh:

[playmaker88]

Maybe I should, now let me see, which members of Armageddon Online should I choose to omit/exclude? Perhaps those that are in the Southern Hemisphere? Those that go to church on a Sunday? Those that only post one day a week? Maybe I could have an exclusive European Poll? One for contributors only?

Keep your pants on 'Dhan' you might need them and congatulations on posing such an original question. I think you'll find the 'devil' question has been touched upon here already too. :birthdayg

[Goodwrench64]

You guys are nuts. You blame everything on "God" and yet you do nothing to promote "caring." All you want to do is put the blame on someone/something so you don't have to take any action yourselves. If all of you naysayers grouped together in ACTION, maybe the world wouldn't be so cruel. You will find out way too late that its not "God's" fault for the way things are. If you searched you might find the answer, but then again you're too negative and lazy to do something as smart as that. Just keep placing the blame on someone else....you'll do really good in life. But take heart that in the end, when all is said and done, you'll know HE CARED, WHY HE DIDN'T STEP IN WHEN YOU THOUGHT HE SHOULD, AND HOW MUCH MERCY HE REALLY HAS IN STORE FOR YOU.

[DarkAce]

It's those same religious instituitions that said there's only one also....

[Thor]

Of course He cares. It's no different than the story with Adam and Eve, free will, remember? Mankind does as mankind does and when each man reaches the end of his life, he will be judged for his actions, good and bad. It won't matter if you did things as a result of laws, politics, greed, angst, fear, you did them and you will stand before God and answer for them. Those that don't believe will find out whether they were right or wrong when they "meet their Maker", it's as simple as that.

[mickydoolittle]

free will

Are you fuq'n serious?

How many times does the opinionated bastard have to isolate this particular aspect of religious persuasion and show it to be the oxymoron we all know it to be?

How much free will does one have if one is given a choice between a buring tormenting eternity and a mansion on streets of gold with empty cupboards inside where you praise/worship/tell god how great it is for all eternity?

Where is the choice--you're either a slave or you burn for all eternity--oh wait, that 's right--they're both a tormenting eternity. :evlol:

If it were up to the UN, there would be no hell. Reference: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

[Dhanishta]

Yes M doolittle I dont like the prospect of being either a slave or burning in hell. Doing either for eternity would be a pain in the arse.... Theres got to be something else.

And Playmaker, you got to be kidding! Go do something more constructive.

[Doomer]

We should all give thanks to god that he doesn't exist and that there is only nothingness beyond deaths door. This is true compassion.

If god did exist, if free will did exist, then heaven would be of our own making. It would be what WE wanted it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

[marglarg]

Just curious as to why ...

I've seen it posted a couple of times in this thread, and am wondering why some posters equate a disbelief in God with the belief that there is nothing more when we die?

Do you think there is no possibility within the confines of our physics (that which we know and that which is yet to be discovered) that allows for other dimensions, realities or modes of existence which does not have to include the prerequisite of believing in a God first ?

Now God may not care, and God may not even exist, but ignoring this fantastic universe in which we live and limiting what we believe is capable herein, is truly indicative of the ultimate 'closed mind'. :spy:

[Doomer]

Just curious as to why ...

I've seen it posted a couple of times in this thread, and am wondering why some posters equate a disbelief in God with the belief that there is nothing more when we die?

Do you think there is no possibility within the confines of our physics (that which we know and that which is yet to be discovered) that allows for other dimensions, realities or modes of existence which does not have to include the prerequisite of believing in a God first ?

Now God may not care, and God may not even exist, but ignoring this fantastic universe in which we live and limiting what we believe is capable herein, is truly indicative of the ultimate 'closed mind'. :spy:
We all pass thru deaths door so we'll all know what lies beyond. But only if anything other than nothingness lies beyond. I do believe that what we "are" is hardwired into our brain by our life experiences. This rots along with the brain after death so the $64,000 question is - What exactly is it that could survive the death of the body and would it even know of it's past self after the brain turns to dust. Deep subject which could on long after death has overtaken us all.

[Thor]

Are you fuq'n serious?

How many times does the opinionated bastard have to isolate this particular aspect of religious persuasion and show it to be the oxymoron we all know it to be?

How much free will does one have if one is given a choice between a buring tormenting eternity and a mansion on streets of gold with empty cupboards inside where you praise/worship/tell god how great it is for all eternity?

Where is the choice--you're either a slave or you burn for all eternity--oh wait, that 's right--they're both a tormenting eternity. :evlol:

If it were up to the UN, there would be no hell. Reference: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.


if there is a Heaven and a Hell, how do you know what they're like? Just because there are stereotypes of what each might be like doesn't mean that's how it is. I suspect we'll all be in for a surprise following human death...you included.

[mickydoolittle]

I suspect we'll all be in for a surprise following human death...you included.

Don't count on it. :devsmoke:

[marglarg]

We all pass thru deaths door so we'll all know what lies beyond. But only if anything other than nothingness lies beyond. I do believe that what we "are" is hardwired into our brain by our life experiences. This rots along with the brain after death so the $64,000 question is - What exactly is it that could survive the death of the body and would it even know of it's past self after the brain turns to dust. Deep subject which could on long after death has overtaken us all.

I see where you are coming from Doomer ... I guess I would try to answer that by saying something along the lines of -- we are not only energy in the form of our physical body, but maybe we also consist of some form of energy which makes us who we are.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to invoke a spiritual side, but, I'm really trying to stay in the confines of physics. After all, it is suggested that over 90% of the universe consists of cold dark matter and dark energy ... two types of energy to which we know practically nothing, and can't even detect directly.

I won't pretend to know the answers here but I guess I'm trying to say that there is a whole lot we don't know about in this universe. One of the laws states that energy cannot be created or destroyed so maybe this leaves room for what we might call a transformation of that energy, and henceforth the possibility that there maybe something more to our measly little existence.

Getting deep and off track(along with a lot of what ifs and maybes) so I'll leave it at that ... but I do respect where you are coming from ... curiosity cured :)

[Doomer]

I see where you are coming from Doomer ... I guess I would try to answer that by saying something along the lines of -- we are not only energy in the form of our physical body, but maybe we also consist of some form of energy which makes us who we are.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to invoke a spiritual side, but, I'm really trying to stay in the confines of physics. After all, it is suggested that over 90% of the universe consists of cold dark matter and dark energy ... two types of energy to which we know practically nothing, and can't even detect directly.

I won't pretend to know the answers here but I guess I'm trying to say that there is a whole lot we don't know about in this universe. One of the laws states that energy cannot be created or destroyed so maybe this leaves room for what we might call a transformation of that energy, and henceforth the possibility that there maybe something more to our measly little existence.

Getting deep and off track(along with a lot of what ifs and maybes) so I'll leave it at that ... but I do respect where you are coming from ... curiosity cured :)
I hope you're right. I really do but after seeing people slowly fade away from Alzheimer's, I suspect that "we" are nothing more than a complicated and fragile arrangement of neurons.

[MarshallLaw]

I think if you would poll this topic to any floridian, then the resounding answer would be NO
Chain hurricanes = proof that god hates florida

[Defiant Noquisi]

I think if you would poll this topic to any floridian, then the resounding answer would be NO
Chain hurricanes = proof that god hates florida HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! GREAT answer! Ivan is yet to make its appearance and I find such satisfaction in not living in Florida. See? God cares about me! :sardonic:

[Thor]

Don't count on it. :devsmoke:
Oh I AM counting on it Mickey. And, one nice thing, I am pretty confident YOU won't be anywhere near where I am...

[Defiant Noquisi]

Oh I AM counting on it Mickey. And, one nice thing, I am pretty confident YOU won't be anywhere near where I am... If Micky doesnt believe in heaven I doubt he believes in hell. Unless he owns it too. :evlol:

[Thor]

If Micky doesnt believe in heaven I doubt he believes in hell. Unless he owns it too. :evlol:


Yeah, you're probably right, DN, but WHO really cares what Mickey thinks anyway?

[DarkAce]

What Thor, you didn't notice the Micky fanclub? I thought it's members were rather obvious :)

[Thor]

so, other than you, WHO cares what Mickey thinks?

[Thor]

Of obvious moderator suckees...personally I joined this site to encounter debate, not "let's side against him..." mentalities...I have MY opinion, some of you have yours, that's what makes the site, not let's "side against him since he's not of a certain descent".. I'm NOT SCARED of standing my ground alone...

[Defiant Noquisi]

Im not afraid of standing alone either, and do so quite frequently. As for the above post about his royal highnASS MD, I do happen to care. I may not agree with him at all times, but I find him quite inspiring and a breath of fresh air. He isnt afraid to post what he means and he certainly isnt afraid of what anyone else posts either. He doesnt give a rats ass about what anyone thinks of him.

He is unique, different and not apt to cookie cut. He does have one slight flaw however............

he only owns the planet because I let him own it and he doesnt want to admit that. :nudge: :Bott:

[Thor]

If Micky doesnt believe in heaven I doubt he believes in hell. Unless he owns it too. :evlol:

Gee, I really CARE what Mickey says or thinks don't I, and every othe free thinker out here....?

[dutchie]

Gee Thor...

How old are you anyway, to fill a thread with posts about how tough you are?!

[DontBeAfraid]

Oh I AM counting on it Mickey. And, one nice thing, I am pretty confident YOU won't be anywhere near where I am...

God fearing Tolerance and Love in action.....

[dutchie]

God fearing Tolerance and Love in action.....
Now, DBA, tsk tsk... Thor did not say WHERE he is going, now did he?!? :devsmoke:

[Dhanishta]

Hey you guys, stop all the crapping around with MD and Thor and let em have their opinions. Why don't we move right on back to the origonal subject matter and get some more polls and feedback..... NEXT......................

[mickydoolittle]

Oh I AM counting on it Mickey. And, one nice thing, I am pretty confident YOU won't be anywhere near where I am...
I should hope so--as my disdain for sanctimonious self-righteous religious blowhards is only out-shadowed by my intolerance for idiots.


Yeah, you're probably right, DN, but WHO really cares what Mickey thinks anyway?
Take a few moments, peruse the Introduce Yourself Forum and see "The Opinionated Bastard (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showthread.php?t=1635)" thread.

In case you couldn't figure it out; apparently many do indeed care what I have to post (if only for the shock value) as my thread has the highest number of views and posts in that forum.

Remember: I am indeed that great!

So, how do your words taste? This is as fun as hunting down terrorists. :yikes:


Of obvious moderator suckees...personally I joined this site to encounter debate, not "let's side against him..." mentalities...I have MY opinion, some of you have yours, that's what makes the site, not let's "side against him since he's not of a certain descent".. I'm NOT SCARED of standing my ground alone...
You're no conservative...conservatives never pull out the race card and complain that ppl are attacking them for their descent. :ohmy:

No one here is part of a collective force to rally against you. There are no conspiracy theories on this site involving you. No one forced you to come here.

The mods on this site are quite simply the best ever encountered--they are fair. I've been banned a few times as punishment for OTT behavior and willingly accept the admonishment. This site is a very good site due to the hard efforts and volunteered time of the mods and admins. Neither I or many of the other quality members take kindly to idiots coming here to disparage the site or the mods.

In short: Less whining and more factual posting.

[autryn2]

A few comments/observations:

1- The question originally asked was 'does God care'... and its kinda been turned into 'does God exist'... I think the assumption HAS to be made (if you're going to answer this question seriously) that God DOES exist. Simply answering that 'God doesn't exist and those that beleive in Him are stupid' ... is both rude and an attempt to 'hijack' the thread. If you don't believe He exists then you CAN'T seriously answer the question in this thread. The final answer is either yes or no.

2- Many people believe in God, however, not all believe in the same God. Is the question: 'Does the God you believe in care' (as in Hebrew, Muslem, Indian theology, or some nameless conciousness) or is it 'Does the God of the Christians as described in the Bible care'. I mean - if your god is zeus or the sun god of the Aztec or something else the discussion becomes a bit broad.

3- If you DO believe in God (so as to answer this question) AND you're talking about the Christian God as described in the Bible, how can you NOT think He cares.... the Bible plainly states (John 3:16) 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....' Maybe the question SHOULD be 'do you believe in God but not the Bible' (but that would also be hijacking this thread and I don't want to do that).

4- Personnally, I think that there are two types of people... 1) those that think that man is individually and collectively responsible for their actions and, as a result, it is up to us to determine how our world turns out and 2) those that want to blame everything but themselves. Those that fall into the 2nd category find it easy to blame God. It is even easier for them to say God doesn't exist and therefore there are no rules or responsibilities.

For the record I believe in the Christian God as told in the Bible. God gave us the Bible as a record so we can learn how to live... if we CHOOSE not to and this world suffers because of our disobedience, its not God's fault... its ours. If He didn't love us (care), why create us, then send His Son as a sacrifice, then make sure we have the Bible so we could learn from it????

[playmaker88]

3- If you DO believe in God (so as to answer this question) AND you're talking about the Christian God as described in the Bible, how can you NOT think He cares.... the Bible plainly states (John 3:16) 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....' Maybe the question SHOULD be 'do you believe in God but not the Bible' (but that would also be hijacking this thread and I don't want to do that).

4- Personnally, I think that there are two types of people... 1) those that think that man is individually and collectively responsible for their actions and, as a result, it is up to us to determine how our world turns out and 2) those that want to blame everything but themselves. Those that fall into the 2nd category find it easy to blame God. It is even easier for them to say God doesn't exist and therefore there are no rules or responsibilities.

If God holds so much importance in sons then why did he test Abraham in the way he did, according to the bible? Allow Abraham to believe that his son was to be sacrificed right upto the last moment. The one human who had shown much respect for his lord was tortured mentally by his master. A master who is apparently omnipotent and therefore knew the outcome anyway.

You say "It is even easier for them to say God doesn't exist" Once again it's a case of this being a thought of a person who is not willing to take responsibility for their actions in your eyes. Tarring everyone with the same brush seems to be your very favourite, oh so naive, pastime. Is this not the same as someone who says all muslims kill christians or all christian religious leaders are in it for the money and the sexual exploitation of minors?

I am responsible to myself and I don't break the rules unless they are bs and ridiculous. I don't steal, I don't covert my neighbours ass, I don't kill people, I respect my father, I think before doing things that might impact on other people, in fact, apart from the fact that I don't spend half my waking life in worship of a 'superior being' of any kind, I think I'd be a prime candidate for Heaven if only it existed, I'm a real slim camel-type.

[autryn2]

playmaker88 wrote: "I am responsible to myself and I don't break the rules unless they are bs and ridiculous. I don't steal, I don't covert my neighbours ass, I don't kill people, I respect my father, I think before doing things that might impact on other people, in fact, apart from the fact that I don't spend half my waking life in worship of a 'superior being' of any kind, I think I'd be a prime candidate for Heaven if only it existed, I'm a real slim camel-type"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You may very well be a 'good' person, but don't fool your self into thinking you're a candidate for heaven. Just like you have to have certain pre-requisites to run foe the office of President of the U.S., you have to have them to please God...

From Hebrews Chapter 11: 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
-----------------------------------------------------------
playmaker88 wrote: "If God holds so much importance in sons then why did he test Abraham in the way he did, according to the bible? "

THANKS FOR ASKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This story is near and dear to my heart.....

Ever notice that what God was asking of Abraham was similar to what God ACUALLY DID for us???? Abraham had waited all those long years to have Issac... can you imagine how much he loved him???? Then God told Abraham to kill Issac. Think about it... God didn't let Abraham do the dirty deed, but God gave up Christ for us after waiting all those long years in a world that was bound for hell, a world that didn't love Him.... God gave up His most Loved Son to die... just like Abraham. But UNLIKE Abraham God went through with His promise.... to send a Savior... and let Him DIE for us. If you have a son, would you let him go and be tortured and killed for a bunch of folks that didn't even believe in you???? Noone thinks that Jesus' crucifixion hurt His Father but you'd better bet it was SO HARD. In the garden of Gesthemeni(sp?), Jesus said (paraphrase) if there is ANY WAY to take this cup from me, let it pass... but not what I want, lets do what You want, Father.... Don't you know how heart wrenching that was for God????? Don't you know that HE knew how scared His Son was???? I (personally) believe that Jesus said 'My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me ' because His Father had turned his face away from Jesus' death. Not because He didn't love Him.... but because He couldn't bear to watch it anymore (just like we might if our kid was being killed). God had Abraham become the Father of many nations (in part) because he loved God so much that he was willing to sacrifice his son Issac to God JUST LIKE God planned on sacrificing His Son Christ because He loves us so much....

[DontBeAfraid]

Sounds sadistic....

btw, Im sure jesus was really afraid of dying and going to heaven, How scary.

[autryn2]

DBA...

You got any friends?????

Tell you what... get them together and tell them to cut off the circuit breaker to an electrical outlet after about 3 minutes after you've stuck a fork into it.

You won't die... at least you shouldn't and even if you do you can get one of them to revive you. There will be no lasting affects other than the pain and the memory of the pain.

Since you're not going to die you aught to do it... it won't be that scary cause its just going to be the pain.

If you don't do it then you're a chicken shit. After all, Jesus endured a HORRIBLE flogging you wouldn't survive, had to carry a wooden cross on His cut-up back, had a crown of thorns smashed onto His head, had His wrists and feet nailed thru and into wood, and was hung on that wood for about 3 hours until He died..... MUCH worse than a little electric shock for 3 measly minutes.

A hero like you shouldn't be scared at all of just a little pain....

[playmaker88]

You may very well be a 'good' person, but don't fool your self into thinking you're a candidate for heaven. Just like you have to have certain pre-requisites to run foe the office of President of the U.S., you have to have them to please God...

This story is near and dear to my heart.....

Ever notice that what God was asking of Abraham was similar to what God ACUALLY DID for us???? Abraham had waited all those long years to have Issac... can you imagine how much he loved him???? Then God told Abraham to kill Issac. Think about it... God didn't let Abraham do the dirty deed, but God gave up Christ for us after waiting all those long years in a world that was bound for hell, a world that didn't love Him.... God gave up His most Loved Son to die... just like Abraham. But UNLIKE Abraham God went through with His promise.... to send a Savior... and let Him DIE for us.

Do you even read posts or just pick up on little titbits? I don't think I'm going to heaven because heaven doesn't exist. I was just stating that I take responsibility for my own actions as do many other people who don't believe in God. We don't need to use God to keep ourselves morally in line.

The God and Abraham thing never happened because God doesn't exist but the God portrayed in your book in this episode that is oh so dear to your heart put Abraham through serious mental torture and you are totally blind to it. Any grown-up doing a similar thing to a child on this planet would rightfully be condemned for it.

Your God in this work of fiction is a superior being and Abraham is the lamb to be toyed with and experimented with. Now don't go accusing me of blaming God for anything because it is all bs fiction to my mind.

[humanhybrid]

"I take responsibility for my own actions as do many other people who don't believe in God. We don't need to use God to keep ourselves morally in line." ____________________________________________Yes! Playmaker, there is no doubt! If your religious or non, we "WILL" be forced to take responsability. Now have you, keep in mind that it is human nature to pass the buck or responsability onto someone or something else as it eases our consciousnes. Dont you think that the idea of blood covering ones responsability is somewhat paganistic and barbaric?

[DontBeAfraid]

Autryn when you can garantee me ETERNAL bliss upon my death I will die ANY WAY YOU WANT.....
As for doing pointless things just to hurt myself.... Im not a sadistic freak like your friends god and jesus.... Think about it autryn, your god is supposedly all powerful, So why would it have to torture jesus to forgive YOU? Its a sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick freak.

[dutchie]

I thought that last "sick" was a bit OTT, DBA... :smokin:

BUT... you have a point here.. If God wanted to forgive us, driven by his/her unmeasurable love, why slaughter off his/her son in a most gruesome way??

Just forgive the lot, and get the whole thing behind you. Why build a lot of barriers like "..but you have to believe first..", or "..accept Jesus as your personal saviour.." etc. etc.?!? Make your mind up, god.. Forgive mankind for their "sins" and bring the whole lot to eternal bliss after death, or damn the lot to hell.

[playmaker88]

Yes totally DBA. If Jesus really did exist and suffer like Autryn claims then he did so in the knowledge that after a few hours of pain he would spend the rest of eternity in Heaven. No other person who has died could have known that with 100% certainty but supposedly Jesus did.

When I went through basic training in the Air Force I would say things like "only 6 more weeks of this to go" in terms of the bits I didn't enjoy but we are talking three hours for eternal paradise. Not bad and apparently Jesus wasn't too chocolate about the idea despite his knowledge. "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?".

[autryn2]

DBA wrote: "your friends god and jesus.... "
--------------------------------------------------
Thanks DBA.... I've never had a better compliment (seriously).

================================================== ===

dutchie wrote: "Just forgive the lot, and get the whole thing behind you. "
------------------------------------------------------
There you guys go again.... no responsibility for ourselves. What is this??? Some sort of infantile existence you're after where there is no right, no wrong, no responsibility, no rules???? Neat concept, but its just NOT THAT WAY!!!

God expects something out of us. You may have an incredible love for your child, but you STILL expect him/her to mind. We're here to learn, grow up, and act responsible.

[DontBeAfraid]

autryn, Why would it have to torture jesus in order to forgive YOU.... How is that making YOU take responsibility? You are forgiven now and you did nothing to earn it.... So tell me why torturing jesus was necessary.

[dutchie]

Again, good point!! :thumbs:

[autryn2]

The responsibility is in 1) accepting the gift and 2) taking responsibility for the well-being of others.

When you accept the gift of Christ, you admit your guilt, you admit your being unable to reach God without Him, you admit Him being your Teacher, Lord, and Savior. The alternative is either A) being perfect and trying to 'save' yourself, or B) turn from the truth (like many here do) by saying "I haven't done anything" or "there is no God" so I have NO responsibility.

Taking the responsibility for the well-being of others means understanding that God could have looked out JUST for Himself and literally said "Go to Hell" (and MEANT it) to a world full of unbelievers. But He didn't... He loves us IN SPITE of our ignorance, hatred, self indulgence, and lack of faith (of Him) and wants us ALL to come to Him. He gives good gifts even to the sinners and tells those who serve Him to try and bring the entire world to Him through Christ. When one is saved, they are supposed to do everything they can to help save others... not through control but out of love.... love for our Father who loved us first though we were sinners and love for mandkind even though they still don't believe because God still loves them just like He loved us when we were sinners.

It comes down to responsibility... if you believe in God and that God created this world and everyone in it, do you believe that God has the right to expect something out of you???? If you accept His soverienty, then you don't question His plan... after all, HE'S GOD and I'm not.... He made me, not the other way around.... I'm here for His pleasure not the other way around.

If, after all you've seen in your life (nature, loved ones, sacrifice by others, the Bible, etc...) you STILL don't believe in a God, then I'm not sure I can help you. BUT, like I have said before, I write mainly NOT for the die-hard aethists that frequently post on this board (I always hope but ultimately its up to you) but for the lurkers that MAY not be convinced that they are alone and have no One to turn to.....

My life is not so bleak... I have someone I can count on. Christ... and for me, it has made ALL the difference.

[DontBeAfraid]

THat doesnt answer the question autryn... The question is why would christ have to suffer for god to forgive you???

You can still admit to god that you arent perfect without the torture of christ cant you autryn??? Can god not forgive you without the SADISTIC sacrifices and torture??? Like you said, god created you the way you are, the least it could do is forgive the shortcomings it gave you..... And please tell me why torture is needed in any of this "forgiveness".

[Thor]

Gee Thor...

How old are you anyway, to fill a thread with posts about how tough you are?!

I'm not that tough, Dutchie, just believe in what I stand for and not not afraid to stand up for it.

[dutchie]

THat doesnt answer the question autryn... The question is why would christ have to suffer for god to forgive you???

You can still admit to god that you arent perfect without the torture of christ cant you autryn??? Can god not forgive you without the SADISTIC sacrifices and torture??? Like you said, god created you the way you are, the least it could do is forgive the shortcomings it gave you..... And please tell me why torture is needed in any of this "forgiveness".
Yes, and an excessive amount too..

[humanhybrid]

THat doesnt answer the question autryn... The question is why would christ have to suffer for god to forgive you???

You can still admit to god that you arent perfect without the torture of christ cant you autryn??? Can god not forgive you without the SADISTIC sacrifices and torture??? Like you said, god created you the way you are, the least it could do is forgive the shortcomings it gave you..... And please tell me why torture is needed in any of this "forgiveness" Come on guys give Jesus a break, He gave his life for a cause, what it was personally for him we dont TRULY know, but it was an act of self sacrafice for what he felt and believed. This is my opionion so please dont misunderstand my intensions, please! Before the new testament there was the old and people were cleansed "redeemed" by the blood of an animal. That was the way up until the disciples of Jesus said, since Jesus shed his blood and made himself a sacrifice. That very act shall redeem mankind. It shall be by the blood of Christ who has not sinned. By accepting Jesus and his example shall we be saved. No animal sacrafices but now it evolved to a mock human sacrafice. His example is great and admirable. But lets not forget that people do die for a variety of causes. Anyway I hope I didnt bore anyone if so please forgive me.good day!

[dutchie]

Before the new testament there was the old and people were cleansed "redeemed" by the blood of an animal. That was the way up until the disciples of Jesus said, since Jesus shed his blood and made himself a sacrifice. That very act shall redeem mankind.

Can't you see the sheer barbarism in this?!? Why would ANY god NEED a friggin SACRIFICE?!?

[Dr. X]

Come on guys give Jesus a break, He gave his life for a cause, what it was personally for him we dont TRULY know, but it was an act of self sacrafice for what he felt and believed. This is my opionion so please dont misunderstand my intensions, please! Before the new testament there was the old and people were cleansed "redeemed" by the blood of an animal. That was the way up until the disciples of Jesus said, since Jesus shed his blood and made himself a sacrifice. That very act shall redeem mankind. It shall be by the blood of Christ who has not sinned. By accepting Jesus and his example shall we be saved. No animal sacrafices but now it evolved to a mock human sacrafice. His example is great and admirable. But lets not forget that people do die for a variety of causes. Anyway I hope I didnt bore anyone if so please forgive me.good day!
I agree! Thanx for that! :toast:

[MacRasta]

The responsibility is in 1) accepting the gift and 2) taking responsibility for the well-being of others.

When you accept the gift of Christ, you admit your guilt, you admit your being unable to reach God without Him, you admit Him being your Teacher, Lord, and Savior. The alternative is either A) being perfect and trying to 'save' yourself, or B) turn from the truth (like many here do) by saying "I haven't done anything" or "there is no God" so I have NO responsibility...

WAAAAAAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAA....etc :Llol:

Very Funny stuff, man

[humanhybrid]

Can't you see the sheer barbarism in this?!? Why would ANY god NEED a friggin SACRIFICE?!? Dutchie, Yes I can very much so"see the sheer barbarism", but it does not negate the sacrifice he made to himself and his personal belief. Perhaps we are witnessing evolution of the human belief. Hopefully one day we will stop being so superstitious and barbaric in our pursuit of understanding ourselves and the world around us. good day!

[dutchie]

Now your mixing up god and its need of a sacrifice and your idea about us needing to sacrifice something for our ideals or faith. Make your mind up.

I was placeing question marks at the God's NEED for a bloody SACRIFICE. That is barbarism, and could be placed exactly in line with the Azteks ripping out hearts of live people on the peak of a temple to please the Sungod...

To me the analogy of these rituals is the basis of my lack of faith. All cultures everywhere on the globe have invented these to lull their peoples into a dependant and easily controllable mob of followers. It starts with Santa when you're a kid and it ends with Jesus when you grow up.

If a SUPREME being of INFINITE knowledge would rise and say "Sorry guys, hate to break the news to ya, but there IS NO GOD, never has been, never will be, period. When you die, that's it, end of story. Have a nice day!" he would only get a handful of convinced believers.


(Don't fall over me when it were the Inca's in stead of the Aztecs, or it was the Moongod, or whatever, please..)

[Dr. X]

Ya know, as a Christian, I can't understand WHY God would need a sacrifice to justify us to even approach Him. That is beyond my understanding of His love for us. I have to go on faith with that. From what I understand, it has to do with original sin, but, as a preson, I don't get it. I just rely on what I believe and faith from what I have experienced.

[DontBeAfraid]

You are possibly the most rational Christian who has ever come here and discussed their faith with me Dr. X, You will probably never make my ignore list.

[dutchie]

You know DBA, although I share your sympathy for the way Dr.X handles his faith in his posts, he still describes blind faith - which IMO is very far away from rationality... :bubble:

[Dr. X]

DBA- Thanx!

Dutchie- Yes, sometimes blind faith is needed. I think there can be a good balance between blind faith and rationality. For me, I call it common sense in conjuction with a belief. Hey! How 'bout we start a thread on that! ::)):

[autryn2]

DBA wrote: "The question is why would christ have to suffer for god to forgive you???"
--------------------------------------------------

I am a Christian. Christians believe God made/ownes/rules heaven and hell, and everything in between.

therefore...

God made/owns the world = God has the right to run His plan ANY WAY HE WANTS TO.

Jesus = God on earth. We have argued (ad nauseum) whether God and Jesus are one entity or two but the result is that even if Jesus is another entity it is plain that Jesus is 'one in purpose' with God.

therefore...

God suffered when He sacrificed His Son (when Jesus was tortured and died) JUST LIKE you all say Abraham suffered. God was trying to show how much He loves us all by the magnitude of His (God's) sacrifice.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dutchie wrote: "Just forgive the lot, and get the whole thing behind you. Why build a lot of barriers like "..but you have to believe first..", or "..accept Jesus as your personal saviour.." etc. etc.?!? Make your mind up, god.. Forgive mankind for their "sins" and bring the whole lot to eternal bliss after death, or damn the lot to hell."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see... who was the last to question God's plan and want to set up his own plan in his own way????

Oh yeah... the devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
There IS a God... and I am not Him....

[DontBeAfraid]

I am a Christian. Christians believe God made/ownes/rules heaven and hell, and everything in between.

therefore...

God made/owns the world = God has the right to run His plan ANY WAY HE WANTS TO.

So you admit that you dont know..... Why didnt you just say that the answer is that god works in mysterious ways? lol

[DontBeAfraid]

Lets see... who was the last to question God's plan and want to set up his own plan in his own way????

Oh yeah... the devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

god sounds rather childish to me....

[dutchie]

Lets see... who was the last to question God's plan and want to set up his own plan in his own way????

Oh yeah... the devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
There IS a God... and I am not Him....
This is SO typical... I bring on some valid points to discuss; TO DISCUSS mind you, and your reaction is simply that my words MUST be given in by the diabolic inspiration. MAN!!

DBA says God must be childish.. No, autryn2: YOU are childish, for giving this discussion this twist when you dislike the POV being brought up.

[mickydoolittle]

You are possibly the most rational Christian who has ever come here and discussed their faith with me Dr. X, You will probably never make my ignore list.

Stand-up straight and pull your pants back-up, DBA.... :smokin:

[DontBeAfraid]

Its not what it looks like........ I swear mickey its always been you

[autryn2]

Dutchie wrote: "This is SO typical... I bring on some valid points to discuss; TO DISCUSS mind you, and your reaction is simply that my words MUST be given in by the diabolic inspiration. MAN!!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Geee, Dutchie...... a little melodramatic, aren't we??????

I didn't mean to insinuate that you are the devil, or possessed, but rather express that I believe its God's RIGHT to decide how things are done in His world (regardless of the issue of Him being all-powerful). He went to the trouble (and work) of making us, this world, everything.... and I believe He has the right to set thing up any way He wants. In my mind He is Just. He made us, we are His, and He decided upon a way to both remain perfect in His Law AND to find (for us) a loophole to get into heaven despite our imperfection. The way I see it, He's acting out of Love and doing us a favor.

Then I come on to this board and 'see' people being so cavalier about God's decisions, criticizing His Plan and Purpose for us. All I'm trying to do is tell my POV and point out that legend tells us that it was Lucifer that didn't want things set up the way God wanted (or so we're told).

I WILL say this: In just a couple of verses, Jesus called Peter both "the rock upon which He (Jesus) would build His Church, because Peter said Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and then, when Jesus told Peter that He was going to die at the hands of sinners, and Peter said to Christ 'no, don't let that happen to you' (paraphrase), Jesus said to him "Get behind me satan! You don't want the things of God, but the things of man!".... so Jesus (one in purpose with God) was VERY jealous about His Father's Plan. That tells me that God is also VERY serious about His Plan and the way He wants things to work out. In fact, Jesus said that heaven and earth will fade away, but not one word from His Father.

Soooo, if its good enough for Jesus, you'd better believe its good enough for us.
(All of us, that is, that accept it).

[dutchie]

Dutchie wrote: "This is SO typical... I bring on some valid points to discuss; TO DISCUSS mind you, and your reaction is simply that my words MUST be given in by the diabolic inspiration. MAN!!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Geee, Dutchie...... a little melodramatic, aren't we??????
No, that is not melodramatic. It's an reaction on an action. You wrote what you wrote, and I responded appropriately.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you are the devil, or possessed, but rather express that I believe its God's RIGHT to decide how things are done in His world (regardless of the issue of Him being all-powerful).
Then you should've written that. Spoken like Micky: you have the right to believe anything you want. So have I. But in my case you did drag the devil in by the hair, and slapped it around my ears. Hence my reaction. Now who was being melodramatic?

He went to the trouble (and work) of making us, this world, everything.... and I believe He has the right to set thing up any way He wants. In my mind He is Just. He made us, we are His, and He decided upon a way to both remain perfect in His Law AND to find (for us) a loophole to get into heaven despite our imperfection. The way I see it, He's acting out of Love and doing us a favor.
I know what Christian religion is all about. We were discussing God's ways of doing things (according to those who believe) and some of us saw the lack of logic behind the fundamentals of Christian religion. This lack of logic was underlined with arguments. You just say "God is God and he has the right of choosing to do with his creation in any way he sees fit. He invented a loophole in his own law." In MY POV you just ADMITTED the lack of logic in this line of thought. Why make a law, and later on create a loophole?

Then I come on to this board and 'see' people being so cavalier about God's decisions, criticizing His Plan and Purpose for us. All I'm trying to do is tell my POV and point out that legend tells us that it was Lucifer that didn't want things set up the way God wanted (or so we're told).
This is a discussion board, remember? You obviously like discussing, or else you wouldn't be here. Don't lecture me about the way I like to discuss or what I like to discuss. In a way, I am like God: I can do anything I want, say anything I please, as long as it suits my purposes. That's called freedom of choice and freedom of speech.

I WILL say this: In just a couple of verses, Jesus called Peter both "the rock upon which He (Jesus) would build His Church, because Peter said Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and then, when Jesus told Peter that He was going to die at the hands of sinners, and Peter said to Christ 'no, don't let that happen to you' (paraphrase), Jesus said to him "Get behind me satan! You don't want the things of God, but the things of man!".... so Jesus (one in purpose with God) was VERY jealous about His Father's Plan. That tells me that God is also VERY serious about His Plan and the way He wants things to work out. In fact, Jesus said that heaven and earth will fade away, but not one word from His Father.

Soooo, if its good enough for Jesus, you'd better believe its good enough for us.
(All of us, that is, that accept it).
I can not quite connect your closing sentence to the scripture you quoted. At any rate Jesus wasn't adressing Peter when he said "Get behind me Satan!", I know of several Christians who think that line was directly adressed to the devil, because Jesus felt the temptation caused by Peter's remark.
I could of course be totally wrong, but in that light your last remark does not quite fit to the one before that. Care to enlighten me?

[autryn2]

Dutchie wrote:". You just say "God is God and he has the right of choosing to do with his creation in any way he sees fit. He invented a loophole in his own law." In MY POV you just ADMITTED the lack of logic in this line of thought. Why make a law, and later on create a loophole?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You ever raised a kid, Dutchie??? Parents have rules and expect their kids to obey them. If you tell your kid not to smoke pot or bring it into your home and then he does... as a parent what do you do???? Its your house and you have the right to make that rule. You bought and paid for the house through your hard work and your kid SHOULD obey your rule... but he doesn't. You can either: 1) change your rule, 2) kick your kid out of your house and never speak to him again, or 3) punish him (give him a chance to make it up to you) and give him the chance to obey your rule in the future.

My choice is #3 (and in our discussion about God and His loophole, He has also chosen #3). Because God LOVES us, He doesn't chose #2. But that doesn't mean He's willing to change His law. WE are the ones who have obey.

Now, if your kid continues to disobey and has no respect for your wishes, there
is a point where you have to let him know that if he is going to do just as he pleases, he'll have to be doing that ON HIS OWN. We have our entire life to decide whether or not we will obey God and follow His rules. If we don't, we'll end up being kicked out of His house (out of heaven and into hell).

================================================== ======

Dutchie wrote: "I know of several Christians who think that line was directly adressed to the devil, because Jesus felt the temptation caused by Peter's remark."
--------------------------------------------------

They are totally wrong. Jesus said in the next sentence "You don't want the things of God, but the things of man".... He was speaking to Peter. If He was speaking to the devil, He would have said 'you want the things of hell' (or something like that). Man wants the things of man, not satan.

Man is always worried about himself.... God teaches us to worry about others. That is what Jesus was doing... worrying about mandkind and not Himself by purchasing our salvation with His own sacrifice.
Peter was saying to Jesus 'worry about yourself and not everyone else' or 'worry about yourself and not God's purpose for you'. Jesus would have none of that....

================================================== ===

Dutchie wrote: "I can not quite connect your closing sentence to the scripture you quoted......but in that light your last remark does not quite fit to the one before that. Care to enlighten me?"
---------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure what you mean, dutchie.... please explain and I'd love to talk about it....

PS Thanks for the discussion.

================================================== ======

Lastly, I have been criticized for getting on others about their point of view. Well, for many here all this talk about God is strictly intellectual and/or philosophical discussion (without emotion). It is not that way for me. What you have to understand is that I truely believe in Christ. Christ, for me, is real. He is my savior, my teacher, and my friend. When someone here talks bad about Christ (or God) I am offended, just like you would be if I talked about your real friend(s). When people here talk about God/Christ negatively, they are talking about those that I love and I defend those that I love.....

[dutchie]

You ever raised a kid, Dutchie???Yes, I have two beautiful daughters.

Parents have rules and expect their kids to obey them. If you tell your kid not to smoke pot or bring it into your home and then he does... as a parent what do you do???? Its your house and you have the right to make that rule. You bought and paid for the house through your hard work and your kid SHOULD obey your rule... but he doesn't. You can either: 1) change your rule, 2) kick your kid out of your house and never speak to him again, or 3) punish him (give him a chance to make it up to you) and give him the chance to obey your rule in the future.
I'd go for the option you didn't mention at all. 4) I'd first forgive her, and then have a serious talk about it, and EXPLAIN why I think it is not wise to do this and that


My choice is #3 (and in our discussion about God and His loophole, He has also chosen #3). Because God LOVES us, He doesn't chose #2. But that doesn't mean He's willing to change His law. WE are the ones who have obey.Are you a clairvoyant, that you can peer into the mind of God?

Now, if your kid continues to disobey and has no respect for your wishes, there is a point where you have to let him know that if he is going to do just as he pleases, he'll have to be doing that ON HIS OWN. We have our entire life to decide whether or not we will obey God and follow His rules. If we don't, we'll end up being kicked out of His house (out of heaven and into hell).Unknowingly you just confirmed my darkest suspicions about God - or better: YOUR opinion about God.

They are totally wrong. Jesus said in the next sentence "You don't want the things of God, but the things of man".... He was speaking to Peter. If He was speaking to the devil, He would have said 'you want the things of hell' (or something like that). Man wants the things of man, not satan.Now that is sheer nonsense, and you know it. According to the christian religion, man if sinful and inclined to do wrong, thus following the will of the devil. In other words, wanting the things of man, is EXACTLY what the devil would want.

Man is always worried about himself.... God teaches us to worry about others. That is what Jesus was doing... worrying about mandkind and not Himself by purchasing our salvation with His own sacrifice.I can understand you think Jesus sacrifice was very unselfish and made out of love for mankind. But that does not change the question. Why was so cruel and bloody a sacrifice needed? Why couldn't God just FORGIVE US?!? (See my option #4)

Lastly, I have been criticized for getting on others about their point of view. Well, for many here all this talk about God is strictly intellectual and/or philosophical discussion (without emotion).Again you give evidence of a profound arrogance towards the members of this forum by stating you are capable of reading their minds. Who are you to think I discuss without emotion?!?
It is not that way for me. What you have to understand is that I truely believe in Christ. Christ, for me, is real. He is my savior, my teacher, and my friend. When someone here talks bad about Christ (or God) I am offended, just like you would be if I talked about your real friend(s). When people here talk about God/Christ negatively, they are talking about those that I love and I defend those that I love.....If you don't want that, don't come here. I would say you'd throw away a good chance to discuss your ideas with others, an assignment given to you by Jesus himself. But hey, it's a free world.
Sorry you did not get my last question, let's leave it alone for now.

Autryn2, you are free and welcome to discuss your faith and explain the things that move you therein. This forum was especially created for people like you. However, it was also especially created for the likes of me, who question the foundations of faith and dogmatics. If this forum would ONLY welcome people like you, it wouldn't last long, because you guys would bore eachother to death just nodding in agreement all of the time.

[mickydoolittle]

Everyone?!?! ATTENTION!!! Everyone!

Hans is doing a fine job in responding to the arguments of A2.

Hans ---> :bondage: <---A2 :D

Please make note of his style, foundation, and most importantly: LOGIC.

Carry on my Dutch friend.

:smokin:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Before the new testament there was the old and people were cleansed "redeemed" by the blood of an animal. That was the way up until the disciples of Jesus said, since Jesus shed his blood and made himself a sacrifice. That very act shall redeem mankind. Well, I guess it was worth something then since innocent animals are no longer butchered for sacrifice. I never could understand that.

[DarkAce]

The jews stopped animal sacrifices and ritual sex orgies long before Jesus showed up.

[dutchie]

The jews stopped animal sacrifices and ritual sex orgies long before Jesus showed up.
That"s not true. Even in the bible there"s talk of pigeons and lambs being slaughtered and burned. Ritual sex orgies?!? When were those ever performed by Jews? You"d have to go to the Romans for that and later on to the Kelts.

Today Muslims still slaughter sheep and lambs. All around the globe animals are being ritually slaughtered.

[DarkAce]

In the early days when Yahweh was still starting out, the jews carried over many of their pagan traditions.
In the ever changing concept of God this would no longer be tolerated when some prophetic priest barges into some important temple and damns the people for doing this. This happens long before Jesus shows up. You can't rely on the Bible as historically accurate.

[autryn2]

Dutchie wrote: "If you don't want that, don't come here. I would say you'd throw away a good chance to discuss your ideas with others, an assignment given to you by Jesus himself. But hey, it's a free world."
----------------------------------------------------------
I never said I wouldn't come here. Actually, it is just the opposite.... I come here BECAUSE of the opposing view which is prevalent here.

Dutchie, we are different in our view of God. I don't believe you see Him as He actually exists (or me either, really). I think you view Him using the eye of man and your view of Him is clouded because you have used past experience with the actions of falable(sp?) man and have limited your view of God based on what these people have done is His name. Man IS NOT perfect but God is.... and He is beyond our capacity to either understand His motives (because we don't have enough information) or judge Him.

For myself, I TRUST in the Almighty. I believe He truely loves us but I don't think that love entails us being given a free ride (no responsibility after forgiveness). I also believe I have enough to worry about in keeping myself on the straight and narrow without trying to judge the One who made me. I also believe you judge God harshly at your own peril. You'll get the oportunity to stand in front of Him and debate your point of view one day soon. You will get to see if you can save yourself with your 'superior' morality. I do not envy you for your up-comming debate. Check this out:
------------------------------------------------------------------
From Matthew 12 / Jesus said "35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The last to debate God to His face was Job:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From Chapter 42, Job said"5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Things change when you finally behold the One you have been so critical of. Once you're on the other side, you won't be able to un-speak your harsh criticizm of the Almighty....

My point is that you can TRUST in God (this is not saying you can blindly trust in man that sez he represents God) instead of questioning that which you can't comprehend. Your point of view is like a person who thinks they understand computers because they've looked at the box it came in and knows something about cardboard.... God is beyond your scrutiny.

================================================== =

Mickeydolittle wrote:"Everyone?!?! ATTENTION!!! Everyone!

Hans is doing a fine job in responding to the arguments of A2.

Hans ---> <---A2

Please make note of his style, foundation, and most importantly: LOGIC.

Carry on my Dutch friend."
------------------------------------------------------

I don't think your head is in YOUR butt anymore mickey. While you're in
there, check Dutchie out for pollups!!! (he may not have had his latest colonoscopy) :~)

(PS Better than me has been beaten for the will of God)

[Onikiri]

:pyth: :angel:

Does God if He/She exists at all, really care? I think not. Otherwise if he/she did care then the world wouldn't be in such a mess. What do you think?
If god came down right now and straightened everything out we would depend on him to much. We would soon become even more violent depending on him to fix it all up. God does his work to help people but in different ways and for different reasons. Quoting Futurama, the last thing I thought I would be doing when coming to speech of god, "When you do something right, it looks like you never did anything at all."

[mickydoolittle]

I don't think your head is in YOUR butt anymore mickey. While you're in
there, check Dutchie out for pollups!!! (he may not have had his latest colonoscopy) :~)

(PS Better than me has been beaten for the will of God)
Well...aren't you presenting the epitome of the angry bitter bitch that everyone chooses to avoid in the workplace. There's no need for you to show everyone how lacking you are in controlling yourself.

Try to be a tad bit more creative in your next response as the above is indicative of the lack of intelligence of religious whackjobs.

I hope you’re beaten as often as you desire to be so as to gain redemption in the eyes of whatever god it is for which you choose to be a slave. It's will be done.... :ohmy:

Tool.--this is indicative of the ppl who are of the religious persuasion

[mickydoolittle]

If god came down right now and straightened everything out we would depend on him to much. We would soon become even more violent depending on him to fix it all up. God does his work to help people but in different ways and for different reasons. Quoting Futurama, the last thing I thought I would be doing when coming to speech of god, "When you do something right, it looks like you never did anything at all."

If god wanted to come down and straighten everything out, It would--It is god afterall. Clearly god doesn't give two shits as humanity killed it's son way back in the day.

If you really think that god is afraid of humanity becoming co-dependent upon it--you are lacking in the understanding of what a god is and I shudder to think that you may be influencing children with your unique (warped) perspective.

[autryn2]

Mickey wrote:"....the above is indicative of the lack of intelligence of..."

then Mickey wrote:"....as you desire to be so as to...."

HUH?????? :~)

[mickydoolittle]

Is it gods fault too that you can't understand simple concise written english? Do you really need me to explain the obvious to you?

[playmaker88]

Is it gods fault too that you can't understand simple concise written english? Do you really need me to explain the obvious to you?

Maybe it's the lack of a comma between "be" and "so" that is causing the confusion? You can be brief, to the point and include the lowly comma too. :strt:

That would be "simple, concise, written English" wouldn't it? :bubble:

[DontBeAfraid]

Simple, concisely written english?

Better ask dutchie.

[VegasRonin]

God doesn't care but rather They fear what we may become.
3:22 And the Lord God said, “Now64 that the man has become like one of us,65 knowing66 good and evil, he must not be allowed67 to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever and become one of us.”One more bite of fruit, from one more forbidden tree, and we would have been set for eternity. Its not that Adam & Eve did a bad thing. In my opinion they just didn't finish the job. :devsmoke:

[DarkAce]

Sounds like ambrosha(sp?), fruit of the gods heh.

[repentantsinner]

Sure, GOD cares enough to be a loving Father. Try playing the cold fish when somebody goes out of their way for months to get to know you. The bad luck starts happening and you find yourself in your own little version of hell,and nothing can stop it. It happened to me more than once before I learned. In fact, for being an island i've had my ass kicked more by GOD than i've been blessed. It is not reccomended to give your fellow human being the cold shoulder. :ban:

[autryn2]

Vegas Ronin:

My version of the Bible (NIV) reads a little different than yours:

From Genesis Chapter 3: 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

What version is that from????

-----------------------------------------------------

Vegas Ronin wrote:"......and we would have been set for eternity."


If Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life who's to say that they would procreate. How do you know that there'd be a 'you' to be 'set'??? Also, the tree of life conveys life but probably not power.... would they live forever on earth waiting for the sun to explode???? What if they did procreate and all their children also lived forever (and their children's-children et al)???? Can you see where this is headed???? You'd be up to your eyebrows in people.... always in your face.... no room for yourself.... nothing to eat. Doesn't sound too great to me.

I'll take my Father's plan. He knows better than me (and you).

[playmaker88]

Vegas Ronin:

My version of the Bible (NIV) reads a little different than yours:

From Genesis Chapter 3: 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


And mine says

(22) Then the Lord God said "Now the man has become like one of us and has knowledge of what is good and what is bad. He must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever".
(23) So the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden and made him cultivate the soil from which he had been formed.
(24) Then at the east side of the garden he put living creatures and a flaming sword which turned in all directions. This was to keep anyone from coming near the tree of life.

3 bibles in English and 3 different translations and this is only a miniscule piece of text. Nothing we weren't expecting. 1000 different bibles would give 1000 different translations. How can anyone talk about the divine book when there is no definitive text, just a lot of dodgy translation?