The passions of the Christ

[40oz]

The passions of the Christ. I just rented it on dvd, It was an outstanding movie IMO. I was a little reluctant to let my kids watch it though. I cant justify allowing my kids to watch the abuse Jesus had to endure. Allot of people would call it a fairy tale or folklore. How many of us can say that we believe Jesus was not a real person? And that a person named Jesus actually went thru such an ordeal? Nevermind my belief that he was God in the flesh. Was he a real person? If so, You have to admit one of three things, 1. He was insane. 2. He was the Christ. 3. He never existed.


Also of interest is the fact that there were so many mishaps while filming the passions, "I understand there are mishaps while filming any movie"

http://paranormal.about.com/cs/religiousmysterie/a/aa030104.htm

[humanhybrid]

Im with the jews on this one as I would think that he was in some ways insane. Despite the biblical authors who embellished the stories. But maybe he wasnt as that was the way they portreyed Jesus. He certainly wasnt considered by authorities to be a messiah. Accoding to the old testament he wasnt the one as certain things needed to take place before he would manifest. Its understandable that he wouldnt be the one. We all know who is the one " Neo " good day

[40oz]

Im with the jews on this one as I would think that he was in some ways insane. Despite the biblical authors who embellished the stories. But maybe he wasnt as that was the way they portreyed Jesus. He certainly wasnt considered by authorities to be a messiah. Accoding to the old testament he wasnt the one as certain things needed to take place before he would manifest. Its understandable that he wouldnt be the one. We all know who is the one " Neo " good day

Believe me when I say I am not trying to "sway" you in your beliefs, however you are mistaken. All the facts indicate he WAS the one. The only question is do you believe the bible?

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0205/point1.html

[humanhybrid]

All the facts indicate he WAS the one. WHO? Neo "follow the white bunny"

[40oz]

All the facts indicate he WAS the one. WHO? Neo "follow the white bunny"

If thats what you wish to believe, feel free.

[humanhybrid]

Thank you for giving me that personal public prevlige. good day!

[DontBeAfraid]

There is no factual evidence of a jesus christ existing at that time..... He showed up in history hundreds of years after his alleged life.... And stop with the three choices thing, that is just dumb, there are so many more choices that you just leave out... And then to pick one of your choices, your favorite, and try to prove its the only valid choice when it has no more standing than any other exept in your scripture, which the person on the other end of your conversation doesnt believe, is just irritating.... Oh and the third choice in your little word game isnt 'he never existed' its 'he was a liar'.

[humanhybrid]

Slow down DontBeAfraid, Im confused what three choices did you hear me say?

[40oz]

There is no factual evidence of a jesus christ existing at that time..... He showed up in history hundreds of years after his alleged life.... And stop with the three choices thing, that is just dumb, there are so many more choices that you just leave out... And then to pick one of your choices, your favorite, and try to prove its the only valid choice when it has no more standing than any other exept in your scripture, which the person on the other end of your conversation doesnt believe, is just irritating.... Oh and the third choice in your little word game isnt 'he never existed' its 'he was a liar'.

Amuse me with more choices. It is not MY scripture. Hypocrisy is abundant, that you could bring yourself to say there is no factual evidence of his existence would go hand in hand with EVERY historical figure with the exception to the few that were alive when civilization began documenting birth and death of individuals. I bet you would be more inclined to believe bigfoot exist then Jesus and yet there is no factual evidence of this neither.

http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html
You have chosen to close your ears and eyes, which is your choice to make.
I care very little if you believe it or not. I did not not post this for You. So you my friend, in showing all your arrogance and knowledge of history please explain to me how is it you say he was not a real person. I am not asking you whether or not he was the christ, only a living person.

The mere fact that the adversaries of Jesus themselves said he was alive, and he did perform miracles would, "for a person of normal reasoning" provide all the proof that he was a real person. I am not trying to "get" you to believe it. Unless of coarse that whole time in history was a fable.

[rickisakayaker]

Passion of the Christ is one of the best films I have seen.

On the topic if Jesus actually existed. None of us can really say he did or didn't. The Bible talks about him, yet there is little if no physical evidence he existed. So in my opinion it is broken down in two groups:

1. He did exist like the Bible said

2. He could have existed, but not at the time the Bible says. He could of shown up later or sooner than the Bible said.

[40oz]

Very true rick, however if in your second scenario he "showed" up before or after the bible said, then that would indicate a truth to the bible, and in this truth to the bible, we would have to assume he "showed" up precisely when the bible says.

*I agree it was a Great movie, I cant wait for the next visual representation from Mel Gibson to come out regarding the Christ.

[mickydoolittle]

On the topic if Jesus actually existed. None of us can really say he did or didn't. The Bible talks about him, yet there is little if no physical evidence he existed.
I disagree with you regarding the existence of Jesus--we are certain of the existence aspect. Someone named Jesus existed during this time and traveled with a group of men. What we are not certain of (and which is largely the basis for the Christian faith) is whether or not Jesus was the son of God.


He could have existed, but not at the time the Bible says. He could of shown up later or sooner than the Bible said.
Now, the timeline for the existence is pretty much correct, as there are other documents that shed light on the existence of someone named Jesus. As far as the prophecies are concerned, those aspects could easily be altered and/or faked due to the re-writing of ancient texts by man.

[rickisakayaker]

I disagree with you regarding the existence of Jesus--we are certain of the existence aspect. Someone named Jesus existed during this time and traveled with a group of men. What we are not certain of (and which is largely the basis for the Christian faith) is whether or not Jesus was the son of God.

Good point. We can debate till we are in our graves and rotting into nothing about is Jesus the son of God. Depends on who you may ask. I personally belive Jesus was the son of God because that is what I taught when I was a young kid.

[40oz]

I disagree with you regarding the existence of Jesus--we are certain of the existence aspect. Someone named Jesus existed during this time and traveled with a group of men. What we are not certain of (and which is largely the basis for the Christian faith) is whether or not Jesus was the son of God.


Now, the timeline for the existence is pretty much correct, as there are other documents that shed light on the existence of someone named Jesus. As far as the prophecies are concerned, those aspects could easily be altered and/or faked due to the re-writing of ancient texts by man.


If it is your ultimate goal to destroy me Mr. Doolittle, Your success is close indeed. Once again, since some people here on the boards hold your post with the upmost regards I would say well put. My original intent with my question was, if some of you Believe Jesus was a real person who Really lived. Who endured the public flogging and crucifixion as portrayed by the bible and the movie. Not if he was the Messiah, that is for personal interpretation.


*I am not riding the Bastards coat tails, the mofo does have a way with words. And with good timing they are placed in a meaningful pattern that warrants an attaboy. :schizo: However few and far between.....

[DontBeAfraid]

There is a thread on here, more than one actually, where I have debated the existance of this jesus.... But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and let you try your hand.

Find me non-tainted historical documents written about jesus and during the time of jesus or SHORTLY thereafter..... There are more than enough evidences meeting these criteria for "EVERY" historical figure that really did exist....

When you find this for me, and I have looked, then I will debate whether this jesus was the son of your god.... You have until I quit visiting these forums to do so, have fun.

[DarkAce]

I believe a man named Yeshua(sp?) or the english equivalent Joshua, aka Jesus did exist and probably did suffer what's portrayed, to answer your question.

Rick it's not an endless debate if Jesus was the son of God or not. An understanding of ancient history/politics/and the culture of the times, mixed in with a dash of reasoning and logic will enable you to see the answer. Not to mention understanding the current author's bias.

Btw, if God created us all, aren't we all the sons and daughters of God?

[MarshallLaw]

I , among others prefer it to be called the Jesus Chainsaw Massacre
Thank you for understanding

[40oz]

There is a thread on here, more than one actually, where I have debated the existance of this jesus.... But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and let you try your hand.

Find me non-tainted historical documents written about jesus and during the time of jesus or SHORTLY thereafter..... There are more than enough evidences meeting these criteria for "EVERY" historical figure that really did exist....

When you find this for me, and I have looked, then I will debate whether this jesus was the son of your god.... You have until I quit visiting these forums to do so, have fun.

Describe non-tainted historical document. Anything not within the bible itself? Something not originating from theologians and biblical scholars? I certainly hope that you don't think I can find a birth certificate...

Quote taken from http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

You will find everything you need here. Be careful, I don't want to convince you he was the messiah, only that he was an actual person. I accepted your challenge, now accept mine and read the whole thing! Keep in mind this is what these people do for a living, I just found that link tonight and it only solidifies my beliefs, thanks for the challenge and for the new link!

"Quite simply, one must ignore a great deal of evidence, and treat what evidence is left most unfairly, in order to deny that Jesus existed. Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed. Charlesworth has written that "Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E." [Chars.JesJud, 168-9] Sanders [Sand.HistF, xiv] echoes Grant, saying that "We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place."

[Dr. X]

Personally, the movie moved me. I believe the movie was needed for believers ( and hopefully some non-believers), to get a good idea of what Jesus went thru for us, what He willingly sacrificed for us to have a "get out of jail free" card, as it were. Some say the movie is nothing more than a graphic 1 1/2 hour ( or however long it is) of a man, and yes, it is that, because it needs to be shown the kind of sacrifice that Jesus gave.

The question if Jesus exists is validated thru His Church, and there is enough evidence that points to His existance. As to the original question, it is my belief he is the Christ.

Find me non-tainted historical documents written about jesus and during the time of jesus or SHORTLY thereafter....
Heck, find me ANY historical document that isn't tainted in some form. Even American history books are rife with inaccuracies. Alot really comes from faith, and faith in a living God.


If it is your ultimate goal to destroy me Mr. Doolittle, Your success is close indeed.
I honestly didn't see mickey trying to do that, if anything his post backed you up , to an extent ( btw, mickey...I'm impressed how you can view both sides of the fence fairly and objectionally, at least in the Religious forum, I've yet to explore the rest of this good site).

I personally belive Jesus was the son of God because that is what I taught when I was a young kid.
As was I, but alot of people were not. I think when one realizes that Jesus is alive and you can have a personal relationship with Him, then the reality of if He exists and that judgement is real becomes a real focus.
And it comes to full circle, that the film was needed to reaffirm the faith, to help people realize that the world is negligant in it's values and sliding deeper into depravity, and that one man , whether you believe He is Christ or not, sacrificed Himself for our well-being.

[dutchie]

I was a little reluctant to let my kids watch it though. I cant justify allowing my kids to watch the abuse Jesus had to endure.

You're not going to tell me you actually showed that to your kids, are you?

How old are they? And if they're below the age of 10, have you gone completely bonkers?!? I would NEVER submit my kids to that kind of GORE!

[DontBeAfraid]

THat site is run by christian apologetics 40oz.... its quite tainted... you did nail the definition of non-tainted on the head though.... Now find me one... When was micheal grant alive? During the time of jesus? No? Find me historical documents written by historians from jesus' time or SHORTLY thereafter that make reference to this jesus in a non religious way.... He must have been quite famous in his day, at least famous enough for him to be mentioned by at least one person..... btw there are many historical documents written during jesus' supposed era and i have searched many of them for references to jesus.... references to jesus dont show up in the texts until hundreds of years ofter his death.... What kind of history is recorded hundreds of years late?... REVISIONIST HISTORY, thats what kind.

Dont send me to another christian site, and dont send me to a site that doesnt at least reference historical texts written during jesus' supposed life or shortly after.... Now I have given you my requirements more than 3 times, it should be clear what I want.... Good Luck.

Oh and about the movie..... If there was a jesus and if he was crucified... he was ONE OF MANY..... The romans crucified lots of people. This jesus' crucifixion would have been nothing special.

[Doomer]

Did it ever occur to any of you that maybe, just maybe there was more than one person named "Jesus" alive during the time in question ?????????? And that maybe, just maybe this has clouded the already murky historical record to the point that it no longer contains any truth ? How do you know that one reference to Jesus is referring to the same man as another ?

[dutchie]

Don't bother 40oz... I tried, and failed miserably. And I am not even a christian...
You can search all of the web, and you'll find zip, nada, zilch.

And yes, crucifiction was as popular as superbowl football in those days. Most people do not even know this: in the bible is written that the legs of the crucifed criminals were broken. This served as a coup de grace: they would die of suffocation soon afterwards, not being able to bring their body to an upright position anymore, thus enabling them to breathe. According to scriptures, the Roman soldiers did not do this to Jesus, as he was already dead.

[prezhorusin04]

Alot of good points here, for and against..

I'm not here to agrue whether Jesus was a real man, who could perform miracles, and rose from the dead. However, there are many numerous other savior gods and figures that show up in every culture, that shares strikingly similar traits with Jesus, though thousands of years earlier.

The story of Jesus is an allegory, and if we are to see the sacrifice and power of Jesus, we should reflect upon the millions of people who died for thier beliefs in Christianity, or who were killed by Christians for NOT believing in christianity..This is where the true sacrifice lies.

There are many camps of Christians..Believe he was a teacher, believe he was divine, believe he resurected, believe he didn't die on the cross, but instead lived on and birthed the royal French Merovingian bloodline with Mary Magdeline. This is the secret that SUPPOSEDLY the Knights Templars/Freemasons are hiding..That Mary Magdeline and Jesus were lovers..

Ok, now my points with the movie THE PASSION..I thought it was a well made film, and powerful (but i think an equally powerful movie could probably be made about Buddha, or Krishna, ect, ect..)

Ok, Mel Gibson is the good little Catholic isn't he? Ok, i find it strange that Monica Belluci played the roll of Mary Magdeline..If you'll notice, she also played the roll of lover to the character of the Merovingian in the Matrix Reloaded movie.

So the Merovingian is a royal French bloodline based on the concept that Jesus and Mary Mag were lovers..And Mel Gibson gives a wink to this notion in casting Monica Belluci who played the lover of the Merovingian in the Matrix II.

This concept is a major point of the Da-Vinci Code.

But, if anyone is still reading this, i'll say that i believe the Knights templars REAL secret wasn't proof that Mary Mag and Jesus were lovers, but that Mary M, and Mary mother, WERE THE SAME ICONS...Such as ISIS in Egypt was both mother/sister & lover to the savior god of Horus/Osiris..The Mexican Jesus figure of Quetzelcoatl had the mother/lover of VENUS, and this mother/lover icon spans amost all religions in history..Perhaps it's the true message Freud was trying to convey in his Oedipus Complex.?

[dutchie]

Eh... why would the Knights Templar cover up an affair between Mary and Jesus? Does this have anything to do with the Holy Grail, supposedly residing somewhere in France? Or is this connected to Jesus supposed travels to India? Just being curious.

[40oz]

Dr.X, I was being sarcastic in that I've had to compliment Micks post more then once, but thanks.

No Dutchie I didn not let my kids watch it, I wanted to view it before hand after reading the reviews of the gore involved.

Well after a night of searching and reading, I would have to say your right in that I cannot find a single document (secular).

[dcookcan]

Is Josephus a tainted source?

How about the Talmud?

Both make references to him.

Personally, I don't believe that a man named Jesus existed. His name was Yeshua (as Darkace already mentioned), which was transliterated into Greek (Iesus) and then into English as Jesus. In Hebrew, Yeshua literally means 'salvation'.

Prez brings up some important points about the Pagan religions of Isis and Venus (not to mention Tammuz and Ishtar). Christianity adopted the Pagan Icons, practices and holy days to make it more acceptable to the Pagan population of the day. They changed the Sabbath to Sunday in honour of the Pagan sun god saying that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday (He wasn't, based on the biblical record). They instituted Christ's Mass on Dec.25th, Tammuz's birthday. They changed the spring solstice holiday (Ishtar) to Easter, saying that Jesus died and was resurrected then. This is well documented in the Catholic archives (Coucil of Nicea approx 325 CE).

[DarkAce]

What makes you so sure that Jesus died for your salvation Dr.X? Because you have people telling you that he did?
A lot of the judiasm religious texts were written hundreds and even thousands of years after they had happened. It's also evident in the bias of the authors of each book and you can see the changing concept of God occur throughout.

Christians tried perfecting the ever changing concept of the reality of God by incorporating various other faiths into theirs. This is ever evident in the resemblance of myths that are more or less a retelling of the same tales, just slightly tweaked. Enforced by heavy conditioning, and that's why we have people today that don't question what it is they're fed. What they think they believe isn't what they believe, but merely an enforced thought upon them.

[DontBeAfraid]

LOL, josephus MIGHT have been a reliable source before the christian religion perverted what he actually wrote....
http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html
Now we will never know.... He is very close to the time I am seeking though, and might have even been all I needed before christians started rewriting his works, too bad.....

No the talmud wont work..... Its quite religiously biased in case you didnt know.

[dutchie]

I thought the Arab text from the 10th century on that same page looked a lot less crippled...

[DontBeAfraid]

Ya, but like you said... its from the tenth century..... After his original writings had been perverted.... And well after the time I am seeking.

[Rynotek]

What about the original versions of the gospels written by the apostles. Surely they are documented evidence... although they are not exactly a 3rd party.

[DontBeAfraid]

No, Read My Criteria!!!!

[humanhybrid]

It seems as though the apostles had some serious issues as they were all killed except for one. In my opionon they all were rageing fanatics, as there lives were not respected nor observed other than pests. I see their spirit sometimes shouting and spitting hell and brimstone on the corners of streets. good day!

[mysticalzoe]

I loved the movie too, and cried when Jesus was tortured by the sinful men, and it does go by the bible. I would not let my kids watch the movie as they do not need to see Jesus being beaten to a bloody pulp. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, and i thought the movie did an excellent job and protraying his crucifixion (sp). That's all I have to say


Jessica

[humanhybrid]

Its all dramatization and now it has moved into the emotions of man. It certainly is moving that any man dies for what he believes, but lets not think that men or a man can die only for a god. Men die for their country "POW" Men die for all sorts of causes. Religion must be the most dramatic one must die for. Hell look at the Islamics AND THEIR desire to die for a god, and their reward for doing so. Man in my opinion has not the responsibility to have religion nor a god. If man was more concerned about humans than he was of gods. Our planet would be much different. good day!

[prezhorusin04]

Check it out..What do you think..? Conan O'Brien mentioned on his show last week as well.

posted 09/07/04


Rumors are flying all over the Internet that Jim Caviezel, who played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, will be playing the part of Superman in the upcoming film adaptation directed by Bryan Singer.

As this writing, Warner Brothers has not confirmed it, but the rumor—and that's all it is at this point—has created a genuine event in itself: a flurry of discussion about the possibility, and a lot of hearsay being reported as actual news.

Comic book writer Mark Millar made an announcement last Thursday on his website, relating a report from a trusted source: "Caviezel is officially the new man of steel and what a perfect choice he is. Expect an announcement shortly." Several publications and sites-The Chicago Sun-Times, The Philadelphia Daily News, and Indystar.com-have referred to the report, some of them printing it as actual news.

Caviezel's name has been mentioned as a possibility for months. Christian writer Barbara Nicolosi, director of Act One: Writing for Hollywood, contributed to the rumor mill in her blog several days before Millar posted his report, saying that she'd heard Caviezel was "the leading contender" for the role.

But Millar's assertion was quickly countered by a report at the movie-buzz site Ain't It Cool News, where host Harry Knowles insisted the story was false: "Caviezel … isn't even being considered. My sources are dead on."

Millar then reaffirmed his story, pledging to give a thousand dollars to charity if Caviezel isn't wearing the red cape when the cameras start rolling. And Knowles promptly met that bet with his own thousand-dollar vow. Whatever happens, there will be a sizeable donation to charity. (Go Superman!)

It's easy to see that casting Caviezel in the role would create automatic publicity for a Superman film. Imagine the headlines: "Now, Superman's more of a Christ-figure than ever!" "This time, Caviezel fights back!" "Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's the Second Coming!"

How would Christian moviegoers respond to seeing Mel Gibson's Jesus leap tall buildings in a single bound or kiss Lois Lane? Nicolosi testifies that some frown on the idea: "I have heard some Christians express disapproval that Jim is going ahead with an acting career, after the success of The Passion of the Christ. One lady noted to me, 'I think it just could not be right for him to take parts kissing women and wearing blue tights after playing Jesus.'"
http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/news/blog-040906.html

MORE:
http://www.superherohype.com/superman/index.php?id=1939
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-306439

[dutchie]

How would Christian moviegoers respond to seeing Mel Gibson's Jesus leap tall buildings in a single bound or kiss Lois Lane? Nicolosi testifies that some frown on the idea: "I have heard some Christians express disapproval that Jim is going ahead with an acting career, after the success of The Passion of the Christ. One lady noted to me, 'I think it just could not be right for him to take parts kissing women and wearing blue tights after playing Jesus.'"
http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/news/blog-040906.html

MORE:
http://www.superherohype.com/superman/index.php?id=1939
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-306439
Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!! I'd say it would be a nice way of using contrasts in your life.. As for the opinion of Christian moviegoers... :Blbl:

[humanhybrid]

Sounds like a new age of christian subliminal programing with useing the media.
Rumors are flying all over the Internet that Jim Caviezel, who played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, will be playing the part of Superman in the upcoming film adaptation directed by Bryan Singer.

[RavenWhitefang]

That is absolutely rediculous. So what the guy played Jesus, its a movie for crying out loud. those people need to put their collective crack pipes down and let the man, an Actor, do his job. Maybe someday he will get to play the role of Lucifer, if so, boy will those same christians flip.

[DarkAce]

A clear distinction should be made here, he played the role of Jesus, he isn't Jesus. He also played Count Monte Cristo, and that dude in Frequency if I remember correctly. He's an actor, they play parts.

As a side note, would a Superman movie even need publicity? I know it's been in the works for a long time with even Nicholas Cage rumoured to play the part. I believe Kevin Smith was writting the script and directing for it at one time but than scrapped the project if I recall correctly.

[prezhorusin04]

Your absolutly correct Ace..Kevin Smith was doing writes and re-writes for a couple years, but i don't think he's working on the current film..(Ironically, his next film is called "Passion of the clerks")

Mark Miller, who got this "rumor" going a few weeks ago, was a co-collaborator
on the Spider Man films, and currently writes Spider Man for Marvel Comics, as well as other projects..i don't clssify myself as a Christian, but i think this is in pretty bad taste. Jim Caviezal (who i liked in Frequency), is an actor, merely playing the rolls of his movies, but i've seen that guy on Trinity Broadcasting Network a dozen times in the last month, promoting how he is such a strong Christian, and how he had to be very Christ like to play the roll of Jesus in the Passion..

He talked about how he was supposedly struck by llightning, and the congreation of thousands applauded in their delight for his work. (Go buy the Passion of Christ on DVD today, for only $15.95 at your neighborhood Wal-Mart. ALWAYS!)

I'm not trying to make light, the Passion wasn't a bad film,but surely Caviezal and his agent, and the producers, would KNOW that the connection is going to be made then between Jesus and Superman...I've made a few posts here at AO myself about the connections between Jesus, Superman and Neo.

I also don't understand why Gibson would cast Monica Belluci in the Roll Of Mary Magdeline, when she played the lover to the Merovingian in the Matrix Reloaded. And the Merovingians are supposedly the "holy" bloodline of Jesus and Mary Mag.

Anyway, Passion was ok, but it's timing seems very bad in my eyes..i don't know if a gory movie about Jesus was what the world really needed right now..And you know what's more intense then watching a movie of Christ? Reading the Bible!

[VegasRonin]

Finally saw the movie the other night. I came away thinking that religion just sucks, period. It causes way too much damage than its worth. IMO

[dutchie]

Although I agree with you that the movie sucked, it did not do that to me - it just made me nauseous, that's all... And I was amazed about some people walking out the movie theatre - Christians obviously - crying their eyes out, and praising Jesus with their arms in the air. I spoke to one of them, and he said he thought the movie was "BEAUTIFUL" by showing in "FULL DETAIL" what the Lord had gone through especially for him...

I asked him why he needed the movie for that, and if he did not have sufficient imaginative powers to come to that insight, without this fountain of blood and gore, and he just became angry with me, saying that I should not mock Jesus' suffering, and asked me why I went to the movie in the first place when I was obviously just planning to blaspheme the Lord.

Idiot. :fu:

[Dr. X]

What makes you so sure that Jesus died for your salvation Dr.X? Because you have people telling you that he did?
No, not because people have told me ( although I do admit that someone had to tell me about it before I went in search of it), but because, I believe, if you seek out a personal relationship with Him, then certain things will be revealed. I honestly believe in my heart, by experience, that he died for our sins.

I asked him why he needed the movie for that, and if he did not have sufficient imaginative powers to come to that insight, without this fountain of blood and gore, and he just became angry with me
LOL! C'mon! If someone told me I didn't have "sufficient imaginative powers to come to that insight" about anything I would be a bit peeved. That's just not a tactful thing to say. There are better ways to ask a question if you really are trying to get an insight on why people react a certain way to things. Also, if they are in an emotional state, that just excaberates the situation. Yet,however untactful the question may have been,it is observent and valid one. And to answer that, alot of people DON'T have the imagination, they have to be reminded thru pictures and words. This re-affirms what they believe. This not only applies to Christians, but anybody that believes in anything.

[humanhybrid]

LOL! C'mon! If someone told me I didn't have "sufficient imaginative powers to come to that insight" about anything I would be a bit peeved. That's just not a tactful thing to say. There are better ways to ask a question if you really are trying to get an insight on why people react a certain way to things. Also, if they are in an emotional state, that just excaberates the situation. Yet,however untactful the question may have been,it is observent and valid one. And to answer that, alot of people DON'T have the imagination, they have to be reminded thru pictures and words. This re-affirms what they believe. This not only applies to Christians, but anybody that believes in anything. dutchie, I know what you mean. Ive been out enjoying an evening with a freind only to have come by one of these emotionally unstable personalitys. Needless to say I was spit on and told that if I hadnt repented that Id be going to hell. The hell part didnt bother me but it was the nasty spit in the "REPENT" that showered my face that I couldnt get over. I know that all christ followers are not like that as Dr. X perfers cyber space and my father the pulpit. GOOD DAY!

[Dr. X]

Needless to say I was spit on and told that if I hadnt repented that Id be going to hell
Geeezz...,, If that happen to me I'd be p*ssed as well!
Good day to you, sir!

[LC Jeffries]

There is a thread on here, more than one actually, where I have debated the existance of this jesus.... But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and let you try your hand.

Find me non-tainted historical documents written about jesus and during the time of jesus or SHORTLY thereafter..... There are more than enough evidences meeting these criteria for "EVERY" historical figure that really did exist....

When you find this for me, and I have looked, then I will debate whether this jesus was the son of your god.... You have until I quit visiting these forums to do so, have fun.


http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/

http://www.world-mysteries.com/awr_6.htm


These are many non-Christian sources. The writings of Josephus is proboly the best place to start. There is a reference in the second search.

Lori

[Dr. X]

These are good links! Thanx!

[DontBeAfraid]

NOT JUST NON-CHRISTIAN, NON-RELIGIOUS!!!!

READ MY CRITERIA!!!

JOSEPHUS WAS ALREADY COVERED!!!!! READ THE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU POST!!!

WASTE MY TIME AGAIN WITH STUFF LIKE THAT AND YOU WILL MAKE MY IGNORE LIST!!!!

YES IM SHOUTING!!!

Find me a non tainted link to the writings of Tacitus, I used to have one.... Then if you could find where the quote from your first site came from that would save me the time of looking through his many books.....

Hell, find me some non religous links to any of those guys, aside from josephus whose records WERE REWRITTEN by christians and are therefore no good, and you will make me happy..... Waste my time again and I will ignore you until I have forgotten why I am ignoring you.

These are not good links, thanks.

[Dr. X]

These are not good links, thanks.
I thought they were. Something to peruse and digest.

[DontBeAfraid]

I DID! It is stuff I have seen before in my search for the historical christ..... Dont waste my time with stuff that I am not looking for, I can have a preacher tell me christ is real any day of the week.... Dont respond to my inquiry with anything that doesnt fit the criteria I have given, chances are I have already seen it.... When you find something on a religious site supposedly quoting something that would otherwise fit my criteria, find what it is quoting.... I went to the trouble of doing it for myself and now I dont believe christ was a real person.


fyi, I used to believe christ was my savior.... That he was the savior of all, I believed in o.s.a.s., now I am agnostic.... So dont htink I am just a christ basher, I am just some dude with a sense of humor who can think for himself.

[LC Jeffries]

[QUOTE=DontBeAfraid]NOT JUST NON-CHRISTIAN, NON-RELIGIOUS!!!!

READ MY CRITERIA!!!

JOSEPHUS WAS ALREADY COVERED!!!!! READ THE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU POST!!!

WASTE MY TIME AGAIN WITH STUFF LIKE THAT AND YOU WILL MAKE MY IGNORE LIST!!!!

YES IM SHOUTING!!!

DON'T YOU SHOUT AT ME, I CAN SHOUT JUST AS LOUD!!!!!YOU ARE ALREADY ON MY IGNORE LIST. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[lotrfan55345]

SAVE ME JEEBUS!!!

Sorry, just had to do that.

One of the worst 2 hours of my life. And it's got nothing to do with it being Latin or whatever and subtitled. I'm used to subtitles.

[DontBeAfraid]

LC has given up on finding jesus for me..... anyone else wanna try?... Dont respond LC, now you are ignored by me too.... and I rarely look at the posts of people I have on ignore.

[humanhybrid]

DontBeAfraid, I understand your frustration. I wonder what the Romans had on him as a civilian. The jews must have had something on him as well. Well one thing that is obvious, they "disciples" all were murdered except I think for one. What they had to say and what we read in their transcripts "bible" today are two entirely different things. I think their "disciples" techniques was and is out of line in any state or community, They would have been physcalogically evaluated in this day and age. good day!

[Dr. X]

I have to say....what is wrong with what the Bible says? It says to forgive, to love one another, as far as the New Testament is concerned, which is a pretty important part of the Book. Just becuase humans tend to twist beliefs ( Communism is a great example of that...read the original books on it and then read how it was applied....truly horrendous!!), it doesn't mean the original message is not valid. The Mayan and Aztec history is a good example of how a figure came to create a decent race but they fell to thier basic human nature.

DBA....Noone can find Jesus for you, He isn't in books or obscure texts, you have to seek Him yourself, in your heart.

[DontBeAfraid]

Read the thread X, and you would know what I meant.... I am really no longer interested in finding the spiritual christ, I did that whole thing several years ago.... I want the historical christ.... But dont waste my time, If you cant find something that fits the criteria I have laid out, dont bother.

[Dr. X]

But dont waste my time, If you cant find something that fits the criteria I have laid out, dont bother.

now you are ignored by me too.... and I rarely look at the posts of people I have on ignore.
Then don't bother looking or responding. I assure you, you're not wasting my time. Good day to you sir. Great thing about the computer, there is ALWAYS an "off" switch... :toast:

[DontBeAfraid]

Is dr.X really LC? I may never know.....

Anyway, for those of you who have given up the search for the historical jesus I will take it as a sign that you concede that the historical jesus might not have existed.

[dutchie]

In an absolute sense this can not be correct; I am not found on the web - does that mean that only my spiritual self exists, and not my historical self?!?

I type, therefor I am...

Absence on the internet is not sufficient proof of someone not existing...

[MacRasta]

..... utter Bullshit-movie :bird:

Mac:hater:WhoJustWastedHisMoneyOnRentingfTPOTC

[DontBeAfraid]

No dutchie, but the proof doesnt even have to be on the web... It just has to be something that fits the criteria I have laid out.... If you can find this at your library or some other place where historical records are kept that would be just fine.... As long as its easily verifiable.

However, there are several documents that fit my criteria, minus the mention of christ, reproduced on the web for whatever reason..... so......

So again, those who have given up the search for the historical christ have conceded that he might not have existed.

[Wraith13]

NOT JUST NON-CHRISTIAN, NON-RELIGIOUS!!!!

READ MY CRITERIA!!!

JOSEPHUS WAS ALREADY COVERED!!!!! READ THE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU POST!!!

WASTE MY TIME AGAIN WITH STUFF LIKE THAT AND YOU WILL MAKE MY IGNORE LIST!!!!

YES IM SHOUTING!!!

Find me a non tainted link to the writings of Tacitus, I used to have one.... Then if you could find where the quote from your first site came from that would save me the time of looking through his many books.....

Hell, find me some non religous links to any of those guys, aside from josephus whose records WERE REWRITTEN by christians and are therefore no good, and you will make me happy..... Waste my time again and I will ignore you until I have forgotten why I am ignoring you.

These are not good links, thanks.

And what if he managed to pull off this nearly impossible task? Would you actually consider it? Or will you find some way to lump it into the categories that you mentioned before? Between natural disasters, man-made tragedies, and time itself, such documents would be all but impossible to find. And that ultimately is the point of faith, to believe in something or someone without actual material evidence. In the OT, God was meddling in man's everyday affairs, and because of that, there wasn't much lenience when it came to salvation. Why should there have been? If supernatural events were commonplace, then how could one not believe? It's like watching the sun come up and then denying that it ever happened. And then Jesus came to fulfill prophecies and the rules changed. Any person could find salvation by putting his or her faith in the Son of God, but after His passing, deific intervention became few and far between. Faith became a real issue at that point. Faith is more meaningful when its real, not when reinforced by material evidence. Do you believe that those who actually met Jesus and saw His miracles found it difficult to place there faith in Him? I wouldn't.

It's all about personal choice and free will. You either have faith in Jesus and His sacrifice, or you don't. Nobody can force you to believe anything.

As far the film goes, I have yet to see it. I really would like to see it, to get an idea of what happened, the suffering He endured for all of us, not just Christians. It's not about the violence for me. One can read about it in the Bible, but sometimes something only becomes really real by 'witnessing' it. I have believed in His sacrifice since I was a young child, even if I couldn't comprehend its ultimate meaning. Now I realize from what I HAVE seen that the human mind can't wrap itself around an event that occured just under two thousand years ago, and all that time I thought that I DID truly understand what He went through.

Concerning charges of anti-Semitism, does it really matter who did the deed? I don't think it does. It's over and done with, and to sit around saying a movie incites hatred is to insult the compassion and goodness that we as a people have inside of us. I think that humans deserve a bit more credit than some give us. The only people who would even see this movie as an invitation to violence already have hatred within their hearts and just needed an excuse to justify their actions.

[DontBeAfraid]

I would consider it if someone could find what I want.... Its easy enough to find these things for people of far less notoriety(sp)....

Wraith have you read the part about his torture in the bible? Its not much more than a paragraph if I remember correctly.... And his supposed torture is NOT unique.

[bbbv3.5]

yeah umm my sunday shcool made us go to it for like a once in a never field trip...my parents didnt wqant me to go but if i didnt i would miss school and that would be thwe 5th day i missed it which means they would kick me out....

I think that most people knew what he went through....so why do we have to msake a very contreversial film about it....

[Dr. X]

Concerning charges of anti-Semitism, does it really matter who did the deed? I don't think it does. It's over and done with, and to sit around saying a movie incites hatred is to insult the compassion and goodness that we as a people have inside of us. I think that humans deserve a bit more credit than some give us. The only people who would even see this movie as an invitation to violence already have hatred within their hearts and just needed an excuse to justify their actions.
Unfortunately, people en mass that have a belief will get angry at what they percieve as a slight toword them, and they look for a "victim". And if said "victim" is apparent, they will go after them. It's sad, because that is contrary to what a Christian should believe,( as far as Jews being at fault for the slaying of Jesus, and what Jesus taught about forgiveness, even He forgave the slayers, Jews as a whole cannot be blamed. Can everyone blame and hate every German for the Holocaust and WW2 in general?). You are so correct about hatred already existing in hearts.

[dutchie]

You're right of course, but in the light of 2,000 years of history, it doesn't surprise me at all that the Jews are opposed to this movie again putting the guilt of Jesus death on their plate. Wouldn't you get nervous after being persecuted for so long? I know I would. :uh:

[Dr. X]

No, you can't blame them. And they are justified. It's just sad it has to be so.