Lucifer freed humans

[humanhybrid]

Just exactly was we freed from? The ignorance of not knowing that of good and evil. It claims "the old testament, that man has become as god after having had the knowledge "good and evil" In my mind it was to live without the assistance of that individual the jews named Yahweh or perhaps Joe-hova. Any way angrily man and woman was ran out of Iraq, BUT in so doing Yahweh was concerned of another knowledge that man and woman could have learned, it too was described as being a tree. The tree of life. And being so concerned he sent in a security guard "cheribans" to guard this tree from man. Was man just an animal that this advanced being took pleasure in? We did not surely die! But we became as gods knowing that from good and evil. good day

[dutchie]

HH, I read this post 3 times, and I must say I have some difficulty in grasping your point...

Do you mean that the devil lead Adam and Eve out of their ignorance about good and evil into the light of knowing about these concepts? Lead them to freedom from a god, that had no other purpose for humans but to play with them as if they were little puppets without a free will or mind of their own?

Help me out here, because I do not quite understand where you're going with this post (as do a lot of others, judging from the lack of response...)

[humanhybrid]

HH, I read this post 3 times, and I must say I have some difficulty in grasping your point...

Do you mean that the devil lead Adam and Eve out of their ignorance about good and evil into the light of knowing about these concepts? Lead them to freedom from a god, that had no other purpose for humans but to play with them as if they were little puppets without a free will or mind of their own?

Help me out here, because I do not quite understand where you're going with this post (as do a lot of others, judging from the lack of response... Yes that is exactly what is meant and to further elaborate on this I ask you to read genesis. I want to make it clear that I am not a Christ follower, but I do beleive in life here and on other planets and as it said in the begining something took place what it is exactly nobody knows. We are left with symbolisms and people who at that time couldnt understand that technology is science not a power that a god had personally. These beings do exist as life here on this planet exists. Did they come here? Ill leave that up to you, read genesis it will explain how we became as one of them. good day!

[ben91069]

Lucifer did not set us free. That was the big trick or original sin. They say that ignorance is bliss and how true that is. When you are ignorant you don't know right from wrong and frankly are much happier; just like you were as a child. Satan tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit and she fell for it. The lie told was that there was nothing wrong with the forbidden fruit, that it looked good to eat of, and really God didn't want you to know good from bad because then you would be like him/her/it whatever. This is opposite from what God wants you to believe. There is no right/wrong in Gods eyes because if there was there has to be consequences because of it. God would rather have you happy and ignorant like a child than caught up thinking good or bad which in and of itself leads to death. Because of Eve's f*ck-up we now have good and bad in everything. We are born; we die. We eat food; we must expell it out our bodies. We have the rich; therefore we have to have the poor. It is entirely Satans fault for rebelling against God in the first place. He originated this whole idea of right and wrong, heaven and hell. The only thing 'good' out of all this is a promise made by God that in the end, Satan would be eliminated and things restored back to normal. Until then we are to have faith and become like God which is love. Go read the definition of love and see if you apply it to everyone - then come back and give us a report.

[DontBeAfraid]

I take it you believe in creation? Did god want us ignorant to keep us happy or to keep us from knowing his evil? I hate to see KNOWLEDGE referred to as bad.

[RavenWhitefang]

If god created lucifer, and lucifer supposedly created the separation of good and evil, then what does that say for an omnipotent omniscious god who created the instrument that brought it about.

Most people dont look past the surface of an idea, opinion or story to see other thruths that stare them in the face and are obviously there, but are willing to go foreward in a shallow interpretation of something that is supposed to have depth. Likely if one were to read Shakespere and see that some of his characters "die" they would be left wondering why the character still exists, when it is simply a metaphor for sex.

[humanhybrid]

It is entirely Satans fault for rebelling against God in the first place. He originated this whole idea of right and wrong, heaven and hell. The only thing 'good' out of all this is a promise made by God that in the end, Satan would be eliminated and things restored back to normal. Until then we are to have faith and become like God which is love. Go read the definition of love and see if you apply it to everyone - then come back and give us a report. Reporting back ben91069! Your idea of ignorance is bliss has me wondering why should people be blissfully ignorant in the face of reality. Is ignorance truly blissfull? Most free thinkers and thoughtfull people would disagree, myself included. Faith is nothing most sane and logical people should concern themselves with as it can change and is most unstable. My report on love! My "personal" idea and action of love being applied to my fellow human does not come from an ancient source, nor from savage individuals who are persecuted because of their beleifs. It comes from direct perception and thoughtfull reasoning. I like every other human has come into this world not having any god nor nation and like any other I will leave this world in the same manner. No god nor nation comes before my fellow human. I dont worship Lucifer as he does not request it nor does he make promises. He only has enlightened humans as to be not blissfully ignorant in the light of reality. I beleive in the being of Lucifer and I beleive in the being of Joe-hova. I dont beleive we as humans know the actual drama between the two. We have seen what Joe-hova has done, maybe we should hear and know the side and motives of Lucifer? good day

[igiveHIMmyself]

God is omnipresent and omniposcent He created lucifer with free wil just like you and me God knew lucifer was gonna rebel but He let lucifer do it because he did not want to force lucifer to love Him that would just be dumb you cant just force anyone to love you why should the Almighty do it? He gives us 2 options He makes the other option bad because He cant allow sin to live in paradise that wouldnt be a Holy God He wants u s to be with Him so bad He gave His only son now if you wanna look at love that's pure unadulterated love when He is willing to come and make Himself low in something that He created and should be reigning over just to save one of the creations He could easily take up with his hands and break in half now that is true love if ive ever seen it Satan is putting us in the chains make no mistake the time is coming when the Lord will come back and show all the ones who refused to recognize His great love for them out of His house and into the darkness Satan put us in the chains... we put ouselves in more.... with one drop if His pure blood the Lord Jesus Christ can break us out.....

[Onikiri]

Just exactly was we freed from? The ignorance of not knowing that of good and evil. It claims "the old testament, that man has become as god after having had the knowledge "good and evil" In my mind it was to live without the assistance of that individual the jews named Yahweh or perhaps Joe-hova. Any way angrily man and woman was ran out of Iraq, BUT in so doing Yahweh was concerned of another knowledge that man and woman could have learned, it too was described as being a tree. The tree of life. And being so concerned he sent in a security guard "cheribans" to guard this tree from man. Was man just an animal that this advanced being took pleasure in? We did not surely die! But we became as gods knowing that from good and evil. good day
He freed our evils, not us.

[VegasRonin]

Here's a very interesting read for those of you with an open mind.

[ben91069]

Reporting back ben91069!

Thanks humanhybrid, that made me feel like you addressed me as an
officer or something - J/K!




.......why should people be blissfully ignorant in the face of
reality. Is ignorance truly blissfull?

I used to think knowledge would help make life better, but I have
found that the more you know, the more you understand just how many ways
things can and do go wrong. Yes, ignorance is bliss. Just ask any
3 year old if getting nuked concerns them, or even if they are worried
about if the electric bill gets paid.




Most free thinkers and thoughtfull people would disagree, myself included.

By free thinking do you mean philosophical or idealistic? I think both
of those do not necessarily mean realistic...correct me if i am wrong.





Faith is nothing most sane and logical people should concern themselves with as it can change and is most unstable.

Faith by definition is illogical; you are correct. When we meet our
demise, however, you may find that you will have to at least consider
faith or perhaps not, depending on what you believe. By the way, many
sane and logical people have faith not only in a higher power, but
other tangible things as well; like their car starting each day
(even though they have no idea why it should or should not start at
all). Faith is merely a belief in things we cannot see. Faith does
not require us to know the whys and hows of how it works.






My "personal" idea and action of love being applied to my fellow human
does not come from an ancient source, nor from savage individuals who
are persecuted because of their beleifs. It comes from direct
perception and thoughtfull reasoning.

While I am in no way judging your concept of love, the main difference
seems to lie in our sources. I rely on perception and reasoning also
and used the biblical defintion as a guide which agrees with this. I
see nothing wrong with it in how to treat people.






No god nor nation comes before my fellow human.

This statement is very idealistic and simply not true - especially
the nation part. If it weren't for our nation, I can think of a lot
of things I would go out and do to help my fellow man, which they
currently forbid as being 'unlawful'.




I dont worship Lucifer as he does not request it nor does he make
promises. He only has enlightened humans as to be not blissfully
ignorant in the light of reality.

Actually, reality was perfect in the Garden of Eden - called a paradise.
Reality changed when the dynamic duo ate of the forbidden fruit and
were kicked out of paradise into Satan's reality. See the connection?
Satan does make the same promise then as is now, that if we know
right from wrong we become like Gods. By believing Satan, we are in
fact worshiping him.




I beleive in the being of Lucifer
and I beleive in the being of Joe-hova. I dont beleive we as humans
know the actual drama between the two. We have seen what Joe-hova has
done, maybe we should hear and know the side and motives of Lucifer?
good day

Well I think this is the jest of the situation; to choose between the
two - don't you agree? We are all trying to figure out this life to
see what works and what doesn't, and some people want to do what God
commands them to do. As for me, I understand that God is love, and
anything which deviates from this is from Lucifer. Just my thoughts.

[RavenWhitefang]

That is a pretty sweet story VR, where did you find it? Only had one problem with it, the author wasnt using the proper name of Lucifer, but instead Satan.

[VegasRonin]

I stumbled across it quite a while ago, while I was trying to find another story that I had initially stumbled across. The story I was trying to find is along the same lines but much more in depth, and actually utilized more scripture to back the story up. I'll find the original some day.

Oh yeah! Love the new Avatar Raven! :drool: :nudge:

[dutchie]

I thought it was a good story too, VR. It starts off from the same idea we have been discussing here on AO a number of times. Why would God create a race of beings of which he already knew at the moment of creation that they would fail him? Of which he also KNEW in advance that he would require a bloody sacrifice - to be made by HIMSELF - to save his own creation from eternal damnation, a punishment that would have to be carried out by an angel he had cast out of his presence for its vanity?!? His main opponent and yet at the same time chief executioner Lucifer... The Lightbearer no less.

If anyone can see the logic flow in this plan... I for one can not. :alcoholic

[evilwill]

I find the idea of Lucifer is just a scare tactic used by the church to enforce their own morals upon the populace.

As for good and bad, we're already been into the whole debated over perception in the issue. Good and bad is not universal, it differs according to the cultural standards.

[jesterbr549]

I find the idea of Lucifer is just a scare tactic used by the church to enforce their own morals upon the populace.

Well, I got bad news for em - it ain't working...

<><-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 12 And there came into view a Great Sign in heaven; a Woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. And she was pregnant and crying in labor and pained to be delivered...

[This is the constellation of Virgo - when the Sun is in it - which it currently is.]


And there came into view another Sign in heaven; and behold a Great Red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...

[Symbolised by the constellation of Draco but it is also specifically refering to Scorpio which 'stands' before the virgin and has seven 'heads' or sections in its tail, and ten 'horns' or appendages from its body.]


And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth, and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born...

[This will occur at the very beginning of the tribulation and it will be claimed that this is the alien invasion that they have been waiting for and is actually the strong delusion for these are nothing more than the fallen angels. Now, if all this was just some governmental scare tactics then how is it recorded in these constellations that are over 4000 years old and that reflect the War of the Two Seeds as recorded in Genesis 3:15. In the constellations you have Orion stomping on the head of Lupus, the Serpent Wrestlers is stomping this vey Scropion and Herculees is stomping on the head of the Dragon. Whoever came up with the constellations was very aware of Gen 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." And the passage quoted above is the final confrontation between these two warring seeds...

[jesterbr549]

Why would God create a race of beings of which he already knew at the moment of creation that they would fail him? Of which he also KNEW in advance that he would require a bloody sacrifice - to be made by HIMSELF - to save his own creation from eternal damnation, a punishment that would have to be carried out by an angel he had cast out of his presence for its vanity?!? His main opponent and yet at the same time chief executioner Lucifer... The Lightbearer no less. If anyone can see the logic flow in this plan... I for one can not. :alcoholic

<><------------------------------------------------------------------------

The logic breaks down only because of the free will of men and angels.

He could have created us as mindless robots, but that is no creation at all.

Ultimately it amounted to whether or not he should create.

I, for one, am glad he did.

And, by the way, Lucifer is not the chief executioner.

The Avenger is...

[mickydoolittle]

blah blah blah blah blah...damn duplicates...f-ing ISP :smokin:

[mickydoolittle]

The logic breaks down only because of the free will of men and angels.
Simply admit you are unable to accept the supreme plan being inherrently flawed--it's not your fault...not yet at least. It's not hard once your realize the fallacy of what you are basing your life upon and subsequently quoting.

[jesterbr549]

Simply admit you are unable to accept the supreme plan being inherrently flawed--it's not your fault...not yet at least. It's not hard once your realize the fallacy of what you are basing your life upon and subsequently quoting.

The supreme plan isn't flawed but you obviously are - for the third time proven from your Avatar.

The proof is that you believe the same FALLACIES as the people who run this world, and you base your life on what they tell you to - which, undoubtedly, you are unable or unwilling to admit (judging by your very words).

But, its not your fault - yet...

"She says if its all gonna end, it might as well be my fault..."

[Edge]

<><------------------------------------------------------------------------

The logic breaks down only because of the free will of men and angels.

He could have created us as mindless robots, but that is no creation at all.

Ultimately it amounted to whether or not he should create.

I, for one, am glad he did.

And, by the way, Lucifer is not the chief executioner.

The Avenger is...

Ok first off if this being exist and is all powerful, all knowing etc the free will of its creations would not matter as it could simply destroy these beings everytime they tried to screw up its plan.

Take a look around at the media and the majority of society throughout history and in the present. For every leader, innovator, inventor, ruler there are thousands of followers. Whats more if this being is all powerful it could give us the illiousion that we have free thought - if it couldn't then it would not be all powerful. Also are you saying that in order to create something the end product must have a mind of its own?

[dutchie]

It goes a step further. The creator had advance knowledge of his creation going wrong (he knows all...) and still persisted on creating. He knew we would sin, he knew that he would insist on a bloody human sacrifice...

He knew all of this, and still he persisted on creating.
God made a choice and knew he was going to make that choice.

Do the angels have a choice between right and wrong? Apparently, or else we wouldn't be stuck with evil in this world. Was Satan the beginning of evil, or was evil already inside of us? Were we CREATED EVIL? And... if we were created in the image of God - in the words of the Bible, where God said that after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, we were LIKE God - is God evil too?!?

Now I will take this into the realm of philosophy: If God knew in advance that Lucifer would turn evil, did God KNOWINGLY create all evil in this world even BEFORE creating mankind? Is then God not just as evil as all of his creation? Could God be LESS evil than his creation, as in: can I create a computer that's more intelligent than I am?
Following this line of thought one should be forced to conclude that God is even MORE evil than Satan....

Alright, shoot me, but you'll have a hard time denying the logic behind this reasoning...

[dutchie]

There's a new thread in this last post, I think...

[repentantsinner]

My Ass, GOD created the "Light Bearer" Lucifer, who got arrogant and wanted to take over. He got kicked out of heaven because he would rather "reign in hell than serve in heaven". Whoever thinks he set humans free does not realize they are in the hanging gardern. "Satan" means enemy. :gtfo:

[jesterbr549]

Following this line of thought one should be forced to conclude that God is even MORE evil than Satan...Alright, shoot me, but you'll have a hard time denying the logic behind this reasoning...

Actually, your logic is flawed because you don't understand the nature of Evil and Good.

Thus, just as Cold is the absence of Heat, so Evil is the absense of Good.

God created us "Good" and Satan was the first one to become Evil - a process of loosing goodness.

So, as your Avatar shows, you pretty much shot yourself...

How's that for anger management :angel:

[jesterbr549]

Ok first off if this being exist and is all powerful, all knowing etc the free will of its creations would not matter as it could simply destroy these beings everytime they tried to screw up its plan.

Whats more if this being is all powerful it could give us the illiousion that we have free thought - if it couldn't then it would not be all powerful.

Also are you saying that in order to create something the end product must have a mind of its own?

Speak for yourself, I like my free will just the way it is, thank you very much.

And he did destroy all mankind at the flood when they became too evil, and which will also occur again during the Tribulation which, actually, could start any day.

Yes, he could create us with the illusion of free will, if he wanted to, but being able to, and doing so, are two different things.

And, no, I'm not saying what you're saying, I'm saying that God created us with free will.

Clear it up any?

[Edge]

To put it simply how do you know you have free will or thought if all your actions, motivations and thoughts are controled by one single being? As this being could illude you and give you the impression that your athe one in control when in reallity your not. Again what makes you think that you can know what a all powerful being thinks - how can you be sure of what it says or does? (This all stems from the hypotyhetical thought that there is some form of all powerful creater.)

Yes all mankind was destroyed in a flood :nibble: .

[mickydoolittle]

The supreme plan isn't flawed but you obviously are - for the third time proven from your Avatar. The proof is that you believe the same FALLACIES as the people who run this world, and you base your life on what they tell you to - which, undoubtedly, you are unable or unwilling to admit (judging by your very words). But, its not your fault - yet...

Again with my avatar; you must really have a thing for ass & head…see what religion does to people…. :Llol:

Ahem...the supreme plan is what Bill Gates envisions for my planet...there is no supremacy in religion--only oppression and guilt. Wow, it must be pretty cool to not pay taxes; whose planet are you living on again? And no…Bill Gates doesn’t rule the world…yet. What you fail to realize is that I’m not blinded by the religious tyranny or religious bigotry by which you are blinded. So, the one who’s not being honest is again, you.

:bondage:

What you are vainly attempting to accomplish is more evidence of your lack of logical understanding. Your entire posted purpose for existing is to live your life according to a set of rules, guidelines, commandments--whatever you choose to refer to them as--which have been re-written and altered during the reign of every whack job that claimed god appeared to them in a tortilla or a dream or after eating some spicy chinese food.

I live my life how I choose. I speak out against idiocy as often as possible. I recognize a scam when I see one--especially a scam as obvious as religion. Give us your money now, and we'll give you you're soul later....sound familiar? It should...it's the common theme among every religion in existence.

If you could muster the courage to think for yourself, you would probably realize that your god is the responsible party for the all the bad shit that occurs on my planet. The buck stops with your god, doesn't it? …Or is there a higher power than your god? Naw…you’re too afraid of your imaginary friend to attempt such a grand feat as independent thought—thinking might allow the devil a foothold. :nibble:

[jesterbr549]

To put it simply how do you know you have free will or thought if all your actions, motivations and thoughts are controled by one single being? As this being could illude you and give you the impression that your athe one in control when in reallity your not. Again what makes you think that you can know what a all powerful being thinks - how can you be sure of what it says or does? (This all stems from the hypotyhetical thought that there is some form of all powerful creater.)

Because, he doesn't illude me...

[jesterbr549]

[QUOTE=mickydoolittle]Again with my avatar [QUOTE]

Get a life shit for brains

[mickydoolittle]

Again with my avatar
Get a life shit for brains
You're a winner! Yes, you are! :thumbs:

Wow....you just made baby jeebus cry and you have again proven your lack of justification for why you think your god is the way it is. Kudos. :Llol:

Typical religious fundie, is that the best you can use as a reply? That's all you got? Now you'll need to ask your god for forgiveness for being such a very poor representative of the faith you claim to adhere to so vigilantly.

Apparently, the one with shit for brains would be you....as you have yet to provide a decent foundation for any of your arguments. Do you want to cut my head off now, while shouting how superior your god is? I bet my life is far more fun than your life is currently or has been previously.....
hahahahahaha...

[dutchie]

Let's stay on topic here, guys..

Jesterbr549, you received the bashing you've asked for, don't push on.

[jesterbr549]

Let's stay on topic here, guys..

Jesterbr549, you received the bashing you've asked for, don't push on.

If, as a Mod, you were to look at the history of the posts, you will see that he started that Bashing and I responded in kind.

In other words, unlike you, I am not a pacifist

[jesterbr549]

Now you'll need to ask your god for forgiveness for being such a very poor representative of the faith you claim to adhere to so vigilantly.

Really, and what faith would that be?



Apparently, the one with shit for brains would be you....as you have yet to provide a decent foundation for any of your arguments.

And, exactly how could you tell that since you have not addressed any of my points but immediately starting this conversation by trying to sling some of that shit that's on your head.



Do you want to cut my head off now, while shouting how superior your god is?

Actually, you're the only one shouting around here, but we're having a hard time hearing you - probably cause your mouth is full of, well, you know the answer to that already. And, no, I don't want to cut your head off - I'll let the Antichrist do that. I wouldn't mind bitchslapping the shit out of you, but there wouldn't be anything left...



I bet my life is far more fun than your life is currently or has been previously...hahahahahaha...

Well, that would be proof of the addage that pigs return to playing in the shit...

[mickydoolittle]

...shit. …probably cause your mouth is full of, well, you know the answer to that already. ... I wouldn't mind bitchslapping the shit out of you,... ...pigs return to playing in the shit...

See how religion turns ppl into violent and sick individuals? What points? You've not posted any points that don't deal with all things shit related as you provide every indication of being solely interested in shit and all things related to shit.

Any religion is inherrently disgusting as religion typically teaches one to want to inflict physical violence against others--remember a slap is just a short step from a beheading....better watch it--the devil might be gaining a foothold.

Kudos.... hahahahahahahaha

[dutchie]

If, as a Mod, you were to look at the history of the posts, you will see that he started that Bashing and I responded in kind.
Allright, let's do that.


The supreme plan isn't flawed but you obviously are - for the third time proven from your Avatar
This was directed at Micky. The first time in this thread anyone said anything ABOUT anyone else - a little pinprick perhaps, but still...


So, as your Avatar shows, you pretty much shot yourself...
How's that for anger management
This was the second time you took aim at someone, this time at me. Nobody else did so far, everyone chose to ignore your pinpricks...

Now WHO is the initial "agressor" in this thread, huh??


In other words, unlike you, I am not a pacifist
No, you're starting to be a damn nuisance. If all you want to do here is to get in someone's hair, I'd advise you to go visit the True Christians Unite board; you'd have a great time there!

In your book the word "pacifist" might be a dirty one (so you finally found the SpellCheck button, did you?), but I thank you very much for the fine compliment.