Watch out Iran

[Donsun]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/23/iran.israel.bomb.ap/index.html
Not sure if i did this link right but here is a interesting article. Seems te US is giving isreal what it needs to take care of business. :nudge:

[dutchie]

...leaving Israel to do its dirty work?!?

I do not think for one minute Israel will again be as stupid as it has been in 1981.. The Arab world is just too hot to handle at the moment. Israel has a reputation when it comes to not giving a shit about what other countries think about them (now who tought them that one, I wonder?!?), but my guess is they won't risc being nuked off the face of the earth by the entire Arab world.

[Donsun]

They will strike them if they think they dont have any nukes yet. My guess shortly after the US elections and bush is reelected. They will hit hard. :toast:

[niteflyer]

Dutchie, let me give you an "American" view. The ME oil is needed to fuel our economy, therefore it is OURS! Israel is our only real ally over there, and they owe their continued existence at least partially to us, and we back them. We have Iraq, but the Iranians have alot of oil too; and its time to get it. Right now were just laying low, stocking up our stategic reserve (military oil for the war machines), making lots of new ammo, giving Bush some time to campaign, then its off to Iran, and any other countries that might hinder our oil deliveries. We need some good excuses for the people though; hmmm...nasty Iranians, training and organizing terrorists...why, they probably even have Bin Laden over THERE!! Oh NO, theyre making nukes too??? Time to go KICK THEIR ASSES!!! Most folks will probably go for it too...
And no Arab countries are known to have nukes except Pakistan, and we recently put our own security locks on them...of course, its seems there may be a few small missing Soviet nukes about. If the Arabs use them on our friend we have all the reason we need and will back the Israelis 100%. So I dont think Israel is exacly scared or anything....and I need cheaper gas for my SUV anyway....
Seriously though, the scenarios are being rehashed, the risks assessed, the think tanks are busy running simulations, and we will get the oil by any means we need to. Soon. Do you really think we wanted to make Iraq better for the Iraqis?? I think if you look at the history of war you must conclude every one is based on taking assets from a perceived weaker opponent. I just hope we get away with it, and Im thinking were gonna get clobbered in a WWIII scenario and take alot of the world down with us.. but who knows??
One thing I do know, we are just waiting for/creating an excuse to invade...

[humanhybrid]

Dutchie, let me give you an "American" view. The ME oil is needed to fuel our economy, therefore it is OURS! I ethically and morally object to the rights that an American view has in regards to stealing and plundering another country. Is this the christian values that the west "America" exhibits to the world community? Is this the ethics of a christian that calls himself under god? "Bush"
Time to go KICK THEIR ASSES!!! Seems niteflyer you have a taste for spilled blood? And here I thought we had some one a little more educated and ethically sound with higher values. That does come with education and the refinement of human intellect. Don't get me wrong now, I'm not disagreeing with you about Iran. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3288.htm I'm just hoping that a rouge nation like America will turn their back on what Bush has done and will do for the sake of humanity and a higher cause. "cooperation and diplomacy" goes along way and wars happen when these things are not present.
One thing I do know, we are just waiting for/creating an excuse to invade. Do you support terrorism? For personal gain? "national gain" good day!

[Bigsky770]

. . .It's NOT our oil, it never was. Of course, we do need it to fuel our economy, but, how far do we go before enough is enough? Presently ALL the technology exists to go so-many other directions, we are just delaying the inevitable by playing ignorant and not implementing these newer, cleaner technologies so that we can make this transition period smoother.
. . .I have a difficult time in NOT believing that "Peak Oil" is real; The closing price per barrel of light, sweet crude reached $49.00 per BBl. @ market close Friday, which marks an all-time high here. Add to this the conjecture that part of the military oil-reserves may indeed flow soon to stem these incredible price-hikes, (of course) this is politically-motivated oil-market manipulation that will not mean a whole hill-of-beans in the end-game. . .
. . .Presently the WORLD is using-up that which does exist at such a pace thanks in part due also to China's growth, how-long will we be able to keep this game of oil-lust stricken-greed going? Not long, I assure you. The last barrel of oil (sadly) will be our belated wake-up call, our answer to our stupidity.

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[humanhybrid]

I would like to put forth a speculative theory, if I may. In place is an infastructure, one that is based upon crude from all different sources. Currently this infastructure is maintained and ran by certain organizations. An infastructure that is so prominent and needful of continuous supply of crude"Our economy" It is connected to practically every economy of any industrialized nation. My question is how will it collapses, by war? Will we wait out to the last drop? Would it need to be destroyed "the infastructure" so that other technologies could develop in the place of crude oil. Politically speaking no politician could control an economy and would be thrown out going the "good to the last drop" scenario. As the economy is driven by crude. What I'm saying is that no country would wait to the last drop, something radical will take place before then. I would like to think that all that money that is being spent on war could be used for research and security but it is not. Comments? good day!

[dutchie]

Crude has had most of its history some time ago already.. I don't know if any of you noticed, but so have cigarettes. And nuclear energy.

The common factor in these dying commodoties is money. And not a little bit of it, no - billions and billions of it.

As long as there are lobbies and tycoons filling their pockets, nothing much will change. Mankind has a good track record of walking miles and miles behind historic developments. It's not so much crude that is fueling the economy, it's us sheep, willing to pay for filling up our SUV's that is. We simply WON'T STOP shoveling heaps of money into greedy pockets.

Of course there are cars that could run on hydrogen! Of course there is wind energy and solar energy!! There still is just not a comparable amount of cash to be sucked out of those. We will continue to pay more and more for less and less. It is really up to us...

[Rynotek]

the wheel brace of a Ford cortina and your teeth, wise up, leave your trailer park once in a while.

TTFN old bean

[niteflyer]

Yeah, I guess Im new here, and you dont know me..and it shows...
I am personally sickened by the policies of our leading class, and its way deeper than most realize, just getting Bush out will do nothing to change this mindset or avoid future war. Iran is toast, one way or another, no matter who gets elected.
I was trying to illustrate to Dutchie the current thought patterns in our leaders, and NOT my personal views. Like it or not, we live in a very entrenched Military/Industrial society and the views of these folks control the policies of our politicians, not the people. It is getting worse....does anyone realize that the "war on drugs" under Reagan marked the turning point for using the complex against our own citizens??
What perhaps sickens me the most is the sheer volumn of money and talent that is being shoveled into better war technology, better war machines, better eavsdropping and control technology to take the approach I satirized in my earlier post, instead of using these research rescources to develop promising new techs to rid ourselves of hydrocarbon dependancy..its a sick waste that is going to lead to our downfall as a country and take most of the world down with us Im afraid...ppl really need to know what is going on in our countries black research programs..
I hope this explains my position a bit better.
BTW, funding came thru today for 2 new think groups at Stanford....running war simulations, one Iran only, one regional. If I can find anything on the internet I will post it...

[niteflyer]

yup...and you are nice orderly folks and should always obey the signs....

[dutchie]

Yeah, I guess Im new here, and you dont know me..and it shows...
I am personally sickened by the policies of our leading class, and its way deeper than most realize, just getting Bush out will do nothing to change this mindset or avoid future war. Iran is toast, one way or another, no matter who gets elected.
I was trying to illustrate to Dutchie the current thought patterns in our leaders, and NOT my personal views.
Without wanting to brag about it - I already was under the impression you were being sarcastic..
On a forum like this it's wise to make your sarcasm a bit more obvious.. Just a tip.

[Bigsky770]

. . .Perhaps this is WHY I had originally taken you as so seriously. It's not funny, not funny at all.
. . .Niteflyer, (by your age posted) I see that you are approx. 1 month older than myself. I am certain you recall the days when you had first gotten your driver's license, when 98-octane gasoline was plentiful, AND WE COMPLAINED THEN about the cost of fuel @ .38-.43 cents per gallon. . .If you HAD a Cleveland 351-ford you were thought UNDERPOWERED/all the rage was a 427 blue-print balanced/Cobra-Jet with dual holley carbs/double-pumped -w- roller-rockers, hydraulic-lifters/decked heads, a knife-edged crank, cross-drilled for optimum oil-flow, a deep-dish oil-pan with a 6-1/2 quart capacity of 20W-50 wgt. oil. . . Narrowed rear-ends and gearing were everything, I myself tooled-around and modified everything from Offenhauser intakes to Edelbrocks to maximize air-fuel intake potential, as well as playing with Holleys/thermoquads and quadrajets. . .I could go on-and-on, though what purpose would it serve save to show that I had studied and ANTIQUATED ART.
. . .Smokey Yunick (God rest his soul) opened my eyes to just how inefficient the internal-combustion engine is. (and I quote) that "At it's absolute BEST, a(n) powerplant instilled and produced with the BEST OF EVERYTHING, (is only) 77% efficient". That translates into a factor of 23% loss of efficiency out of a possible 100%. In MY book, THAT sucks. WE can do better, (though sadly) WE will not. As long as we have idiots that have in mind only the purpose of keeping-up-with-the-Joneses and purchasing those wasteful SUV's, NOTHING will change, until it is too-late....
. . .At one time, I had an SUV. I got rid of the damn thing. And I do not miss it. My wife and I get around quite-nicely in a six-banger, and since we have modified our driving habits and consolidated those trips that are necessary, we've saved OODLES of cash!
. . .They may feel superior to me for a short time/that is until we meet @ the gas-station. Funny thing is, when I leave, I happen to notice they are the ones NOT SMILING....heh....

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[humanhybrid]

niteflyer! Do you support terrorism? For personal gain? "national gain" ? for any reason? And have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior? Do you reject him as your savior? good day!

[niteflyer]

Yup, sometimes I have a sarcastic and kinda sick sense of humor, Ive seen alot in my time. It does seem like some here dont recognize it though...I guess I will have to take your advice Dutchie...
My first summer job was pumping gas at 25 cents a gallon, I loved it, my family hated it...I think I was 13. I had the musclecars in my day too...OH MAN, those were the days...I had a BAD 427 powered Vette, M22 Rockcrusher, the works, you know; sold it to get my PhD. Now I drive a 2nd generation turbo Eclipse and actually like it..
And actually Humanhybrid, I do know Christ, and am very active in a local church and donate quite a bit of my time as I dont HAVE to work and its gets somewhat boring and aimless to just do what I want when I want. Church keeps me centered...
I do not support terrorism in any form, but what do you think our countries activity in Iraq is?? We may not whack heads off, but a bomb on your head usually has the same ultimate result.
The only way out that I see is for the people to really SEE what is going on in the dark. This is still a democracy, but it is letting us down. People like me need to expose things, and the press needs to publish it. Unfortunately for guys like me, it is very dangerous, and if they keep locking us all away, nothing will change. Its just gone too far. Our government is in the process of hardening all the public buildings across this land, I bet in your town too...You think they are really scared of terrorists in your town??? Or is it the people??
Well, a river calls...day float on the upper Klamath, class 4...yippee....

[lotrfan55345]

you lucky-duckyies! I probably will drive an underpowered turbo diesel compact car when I need to drive. :hater:

[lotrfan55345]

Ali Samsam Bakhtiari (Iranian Oil Minister) is responding to some questions from folks all over the world here:

http://peakoil.com/forum19.html

[niteflyer]

Ali himself sure is not discounting the idea of an invasion...he sounds like good people, I hope he survives...

[VegasRonin]

Is this the christian values that the west "America" exhibits to the world community? Since when has being a supposedly Christian Country,Nation, or People stopped one or the other from committing murderous acts. The Crusades, The Spanish invasion of Central and S. America, The genocide of Native Americans, and The Enslavement of Africans. The Bible even says that a slave should be obedient to his/her master. Get outta here with that line of questioning and thinking. Its has no foundation! :devsmoke:

I don't think America will invade Iran, if it happens it will be a UN coalition this time. France, Germany, and Russia are currently leading the situation at the moment.

[kanati]

The Persian people have long hated their present goverment and it would seem that they are willing to act alone if needed.

I hope America supports this movement.

http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4143

As it might be happening at this moment.

:crs:

[Gizmo]

:fu: Just for conversation piece: Has anyone look at the World monetary system to buy oil and system in general. Undermine that system some countries will go to….. and some will be very silence. Other Country or Counties has the most to gain with the upset will do the most ….. No one will dare to speak in the halls power!
When two "Professional Politician" debate remember, do not confuse winning a competitive discussion with meeting a standard of excellence. They are definitely not the same thing.

[dutchie]

Hi Gizmo, and welcome to the forums...

I must admit I could not quite understand where you were going with this post, care to enlighten us?

[MetalMilitia]

What the hell else would the US be selling bunker busters to Israel for. Here's a refresher course:

The IDF (israeli Airforce) is the strongest military force in the Middle East. Most of Israel's military hardware is donated by the United States.

Israel is widely regarded as being an undeclared nuclear power - it operates nuclear facilities and is generally believed to be in the possession of nuclear warheads. Because it is not a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, Israel rejects international inspections of its nuclear facilities and the nation maintains a public policy of "nuclear ambiguity". hypocrisy much?

You wanna get super technical? Israel is technically at war with Iraq, which never signed an armistice ending the war of 1948-1949. (That was taken care of now wasn't it) It is also technically in a state of war with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon.

If Iran pursues this nuke stuff any further the US will get involved... ala Iraq style.

If Israel learns the locations of these bunkers / plants, Israel won't hesitate to bomb the crap outta them, cause obviously Israel ignores the international community anyways.

My concern is this... Israel bombs Iran, Iran maintains regular diplomatic and commercial relations with Russia and the former Soviet Republics, they retailiate, the US has to protect Israel (of course) and ka-boom. The shit hits the fan.

[Zaqqum]

Hell o all

My concerns is that Israel bomb Iran ... then nothing happen, just another crippled and submitted country under a kosovo air war campaign style, unable to react without escalating the conflict at their direct cost. Any move from the Revolutionary Guard and some nukes are dropped...end of Persian Culture

What are the real strategic capabilities of Iran ?

How can u see Russia sending couple of Nukes to deter Israel or the US. Putin wont take a slap to save the Ayatollah. If things can be saved at the security council maybe china will risk a veto, but no one will try any military response if the IDF or USAF are going alone against Iran.

i think Sharon, Bush or both will try to create a window of opportunity against the iranian nuclear and ballistic capabilities AND i think they both realize that it wont degenerate in a uncontrolled engagement.

WWIV will be a bit slower to come, in its conventional means, if the USA keeps the upper hand at Pointing finguer at a specific country - Isolating that country - Reducing that country .. one by one



zaqqum

Belgium
Europe
We can debate all this of course, i would be glad having your thoughts about that Iranian issue.