Jesus' death on the cross was INEVITABLE...

[dutchie]

...because...

1) if he never died he would not have been a man,
2) if he had died of old age that would have been proof that he was a sinner, death being the punishment for sin, execution of verdict, originating from Paradise. Jesus is the son of God and together with the Holy Spirit forming the Trinity. This is omnipotent, but incapable of commiting sin.
Jesus being a man could die, but - being without sin - could NEVER have died of old age, because death in itself is the punishment for sin.


There is a big fat paradox lurking here... Comments anyone??



Micky, thanx for encouraging me to start this one! :D

[lazserus]

Biblical prophecies and stories are abundant in paradoxes. Trying to rationalize them is like trying to rationalize the existence of a single potato.

[mickydoolittle]

when has this:

"Trying to rationalize them is like trying to rationalize the existence of a single potato.",

ever stopped any religious zealot from trying--it is agreed that it is an attempt of futility, but when has that ever stopped them?

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

O.S.t. Granted this is a GREAT question, but they will think about an answer for a few days--a week maybe to 'pray' about the answer, then they'll post their dribble. It is widely understood, nay, accepted, that they will be unable to post a well thought out 'intelligent' answer to this queston. But it won't stop them from trying.

[dutchie]

....wringing my hands and grinning in eager expectation....

[Mark]

there was the whole dying so our sins could be forgiven and then being ressurected, that's if you believe that stuff though.

[dutchie]

Yes, I understand, but is dying of old age another kind of dying than dying from cancer, a carcrash (somewhat difficult in the year 29 AD (Yes, people: if Christ existed, he was very probably born in the year 7 BC, hahaha), of execution on a cross?? Death is death if u ask me....

But Jesus was without sin, so he could NOT have died (at all?!?), death in itself being the punishment for sin...

I don't know how to clarify the paradox in this any further...

[thesinner]

Jesus did die for sin , my sin not his..thats the entire point of it..0] 0] 0]

[dutchie]

OK, let's take that reasoning into it: did it than matter to God what form that punishment should take?

[mickydoolittle]

It can't be that great for one's self esteem. . .

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle",
-MD-

Plus, you never answered the question.

[dutchie]

Yep, I noticed it too: it's even worse: <em>the</em> sinner. Like there wasn't a worse sinner in world history...

But, I guess the more you kick yourself into the mud as being the world's worse sinner, the more you can enjoy the goodies of your faith...

But hey, Micky: why don't <em>you</em> dig into my little enigma slash paradox, hhhmmm???

[mickydoolittle]

"But hey, Micky: why don't you dig into my little enigma slash paradox, hhhmmm???"

What's to dig into? I posted that it was a good question that would be hard to argue against. . .If you'd prefer I take the opposing/pro side so that you can test your wit, then you should create a very controversial thread.

If you enjoy arguing or getting your ass handed to you, then post away.;)

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[dutchie]

No, I don't think you pos(t)ing as a Christian would radiate enough credibility for me to oppose in a serious manner....:evil:

But - my thesis being a paradox, you could at least comment...

[armageddononline]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>OK, let's take that reasoning into it: did it than matter to God what form that punishment should take? [/quote] I think thesinner had a good solution to the paradox. Your question is flawed because I don't see who you think God was punishing. The idea is that Jesus was being sacrificed to let us into heaven (I'm kinda hazy on how). I think Jesus had to be killed, as opposed to just die, for this idea to work. And I suppose the slower and more painful it was, the more of a sacrifice it was.

[Mensa Genius]

Yes jesus did not sin. Before the earth was made it was decided he must die for our sins... just read genesis... let "US" make man in "OUR" own image... he was there from the start and he knew his what he had to do.
See before jesus came along, christians made sacrifices by killing an animal, or food and offering it as a sacrifice to GOD, that was because of the sin adam and eve had committed. When jesus chose to die for all sins, he made himself the sacrifice for man... so instead of being guilty until prooven innocent, we became innocent until proven guilty, instead of having a F grade and working ourselves up to an A grade, the slate was wiped clean and we were all given A grades. Thats why they say when you pray in the name of jesus, all your sins are forgiven if you believe in him, because you offered him as a sacrifice to GOD in your prayer. Now we know jesus was not a man... because he raised himself from the dead... no one ever did that, and no one can! His spirit was beyond the physical limitations of a human body, and because of this you can not compare him to what you, or what a man is capable. And being one third of the trinity means, he is not confined to any paradoxs, he is capable of existing in them, just as a black hole can bend and consume light, he was capable of doing his miracles too

[mickydoolittle]

"See before jesus came along, christians made sacrifices by killing an animal, or food and offering it as a sacrifice to GOD, that was because of the sin adam and eve had committed."

God claimes not to hold the children responsible for the sins of their fathers, yet, according to the bible, Adam and Eve are the parents of all mankind. Then why would god force ppl to atone for Adams/Eves sin?

"micky 'I'm an opinionatedbastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>God claimes not to hold the children responsible for the sins of their fathers, yet, according to the bible, Adam and Eve are the parents of all mankind. Then why would god force ppl to atone for Adams/Eves sin? [/quote]


Well thus he sent jesus so that people wouldnt have to atone for adam and eves sin

[mickydoolittle]

If it claimed not to hold the children responsible, why did they have to sacrafice for so many years?

Jesus had nothing to do with the ppl who offered food/lambs/vegetables/fruit as a sacrifice.

They were paying for Adams/Eves sin. Why did it (your god) ask them to do so if it claimed it wouldn't hold them accountable for what their parents did?

Jesus allegedly came for the ppl during and after his life. The ppl before him were cleared by their offerings & sacrafices.

So my point remains, why did it ask the children to atone for their parents wrong doings? Hell, it even directed man to create a law to prevent other men from forcing the children to be accountable for their parents problems, yet it did it for thousands of years. . .There goes your perfect entity case. . .

I'm waiting.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[dutchie]

If the trinity knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would commit a sin and all of their offspring would commit sins, and could only get off the hook by an offering, the last one by Christ being the ultimate sacrifice, what then IS THE POINT in all of this????

If God and Jesus knew about how their creation was going to be, and that it was going to take all this suffering, why then create at all?? And, if Jesus' sacrifice was meant to be FOR ALL PEOPLE, why build in an extra condition like belief?? Why make the sacrifice and still send people to hell??

Forgive me for saying, but is God a sado-masochist?

[mickydoolittle]

?????
-MD-

[evilwill88]

If the human race originated from Adam and Eve......... we're all inbred!

[mickydoolittle]

yourself to AMERICAN rednecks. . .heheheh:evil:

heheh. ;)
-MD-

[mickydoolittle]

Click the link.

www.news.com.au/common/st...62,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7172917%5E26462,00.html)

-MD-

[dutchie]

This is a terrible article. If he's guilty, I hope they'll deal with this guy in jail..... But, I am sorry to say Micky, it's also completely off topic....

[mickydoolittle]

My bad.
-MD-

[evilwill88]

First of all........ why do you bother looking for this stuff?

And that really is sick. That was forced micky...... it's not common practice over here.

Don't worry..... Oz hasn't taken your nation off the #1 inbreeding list...... it's still safe.

[DigglerD]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If the trinity knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would commit a sin and all of their offspring would commit sins, and could only get off the hook by an offering, the last one by Christ being the ultimate sacrifice, what then IS THE POINT in all of this????[/quote]

BRAVO!!!

The point can not be illustrated any clearer. How could an all powerful, all knowing, and (the biggest one here) all loving God

-First create beings he knew would sin over and over and then punish them for sin. This means that even though he is all loving he sees it necessary to CREATE A BEING to punish, cause harm and grief to the creatures for which he has INFINITE love. Strike One.
-Next, he creates a devil to cause further harm and confuse the beings he supposedly loves. He KNEW his best angel Lucifer would become the devil.
-Then, he manifests HIS OWN SON to come down a remove our sins not just by getting shot in a failed 211 on Lincoln and 1st but NAILED to a CROSS with a THORN HAT after having to drag it some miles while BEING SPIT ON...all loving there...
-Not done yet because even though this great maverick of a plan went to task, he is all powerful...but WE STILL HAVE SIN and we still die. Original sin maybe not but what about those who buy into Buddha, Jehovah, or whatever...is this to say that we have YET ANOTHER test and have to weave through God's created false God's, get baptized in the proper religion and then go to confession before we die to make any of what Jesus did relevant?

Not to criticize the maker, but there has got to be an easier way to do this. I mean given the absence of the existence of sin, or wrongness or bad, wouldn't we still have freedom of choice? Freedom of choice is the freedom to choose those things that exist with alternatives absent the existence of evil we would still think we had freedom of choice within what was real...

[dutchie]

Hear, Hear! (but it was clear, you said....;) )

[Mensa Genius]

but dont y'all know that God is

1 unborn,
2 undying,
3 unchanging,
4 unmoving,
5 unmanifest,
6 immeasurable,
7 invinsible,
8 intangible,
9 infinite

in the highest awareness of him.
................
your lifes challenge is to be yourself, when you judge God, what you are doing is matching yourself against all that is listed above. When you forget the basic elements of God is as above, you psychologically think of him as another human :rolleyes: and complain "but he is not like me boo hoo, so therefore what he is doing is wrong."
God cannot even be thought of as a great light, and therefore to many westerners he may seem like death. But being lifeless isnt one of the negatives that describe him. The empty void contains all the potential for all life and all experience. No matter how blank the void gets , it still exists, and thats enough to give birth to the universe.
God can be experienced only by going beyond experience, he is so intangible he can not be defined by qualities.

What i am trying to say is your arguments are based on your minds playing tricks on you... you give an image to god... whether he is old has a long beared and is sitting on a cloud, or whatever he appears like to you, its your mind trying to comprehend an absolute with no properties, by giving god your one of these following properties.

God the protector, God the almighty, God of peace, God the redeemer, God the creator,and God of miracles,

your mind then defines archetypes for each of these properties, compares them to something you are experiencing or observing, then conflicts it with another one of the properties above.

[dutchie]

YES!!! YES!!! Let me delve into this one!!!!

Your post has quite a philosophical scent to it... You say that God is 1-9, so God is everything and we'll never grasp the meaning or depth of God while we are thinking of it/him/her as a being of entity with limitations. Why then give a list 1-9 in the first place???
The whole bearded man story is something that rolls out of your fingers, and was not posted here by any of us: stick to the subject and do not attack people on something they didn't post, I HATE it when somebody does that, it leads to intolerant reactions and we wouldn't want those, now would we?

By making God 1-9 you make God inhuman, and I always thought that was one of his strongest qualities... Is God really what you're depicting here? Or is that a figment of your own imagination??

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The whole bearded man story is something that rolls out of your fingers[/quote]

yes it is out of my fingers, but understand it was an example, i wasnt attacking anyone, the only person i feel i have attacked intentionally to date was mickydoolittle.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>By making God 1-9 you make God inhuman, and I always thought that was one of his strongest qualities... Is God really what you're depicting here? Or is that a figment of your own imagination?? [/quote]

God is what i am depicting there on the list from 1-9 is what i feel god is, for him to be anything else other than what is on that list, is a condencension to him, and his abilities.

[dutchie]

Great!! So now you're doing exactly the same thing that you're warning others not to do, that is placing God within the bounds of your own framework thus giving it/him/her too little credit.... We can be encircling this for ever and ever, can't we?? But please answer my point that you're deliberately stripping God of his human characteristics....hhhmmm??? Why? Don't all christians think that this is God's strong point??

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Great!! So now you're doing exactly the same thing that you're warning others not to do, that is placing God within the bounds of your own framework thus giving it/him/her too little credit.... [/quote]

Everyones minds are slaves to time,space, and causation. Now note carefully, God (the absolute) exists "outside" and "inside" of time, space and causition, and is thus the known and unknown, comprehendable and uncomprehendable. For as long as any human being has an idea, or picture of god in his or her mind, you have already limited god to the laws of time, space, and causation. Now this explains why god has three parts to himself... the spirit, which is the concious, the father(absolute) who has attributes of the nine properties i mentioned above, and jesus the <span style="text-decoration:underline">HUMAN</span> characteristics of God. God in his absoluteness can not confine himself to a mere being, thus the reason he made jesus half his spirit, and half man so that he would be God, and the son of God which is the (confinement of the absolute in a humanistic nature).... God the absolute is unborn,undying,unchanging,unmoving,unmanifest,imme asurable.

Jesus is the humanistic form of god.

Here is my back up.

"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:8-9

[dutchie]

Yes, this is all very well, and I do believe that you believe it, and God is all that, a three-piece God, with a human side, a spiritual side and an eeeehrrrmm inhuman (??) side... but (and now I am quoting myself here):
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If the trinity knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would commit a sin and all of their offspring would commit sins, and could only get off the hook by an offering, the last one by Christ being the ultimate sacrifice, what then IS THE POINT in all of this????
If God and Jesus knew about how their creation was going to be, and that it was going to take all this suffering, why then create at all?? And, if Jesus' sacrifice was meant to be FOR ALL PEOPLE, why build in an extra condition like belief?? Why make the sacrifice and still send people to hell??[/quote]

I know that you're not God and you don't know everything, but it's all very well to describe the divinity and immenseness of God, but we'll have to get into detail here, I'm afraid...

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If God and Jesus knew about how their creation was going to be, and that it was going to take all this suffering, why then create at all?? [/quote]

All this was to show that there is such a thing as free will. He wanted to bless man and all his angels with the knowledge of this. Life as it is is a challenge between god and the devil. We are just the pieces on the chess board who chose to play different roles, so after the game we would know if we had free will or not.

[mickydoolittle]

Our lives are pre-ordained--IT knows what we'll do. Therefore any 'choice' made has already been known.

This exact point has been debated ad nauseum. Face it, the god that allegedly created everyting is a cruel-emotional-tempermental being.

"micky 'II'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[evilwill88]

I'd have to agree with that.

If god exists he IS NOT what all you christians keep going on about.

Might I add that...... not one person really knows what god is like. He hasn't exactly come down to earth so we could meet him and form our own opinions

[dutchie]

Yes, well Mensa agrees with you.... But the argument that we have to go through all this, just to experience the "blessing" of free will.... I still don't think he properly adressed the things I said in my quotes...

[Mensa Genius]

must man be tempted before having free will, be tempted to say kill someone first, before making a choice to save someone, hate someone before deciding to love them?
I wonder how the devil could claim God didnt give man or the angels free will, if he had knowledge of both good and evil, as well as the choice to tempt eve.

[evilwill88]

there are two ways we can look at this......

1. God is perfect and he knows everything. Therefore we do not have free will.

2. God is not perfect and doesn't know everything therefore we do have free will.

If god exists..... even his followers would not know what he is like.

Let me also stress that if god knows EVERYTHING then he knows what we WILL do. There is no in between.

[opinionsrlikenoses]

"then he knows what we WILL do. There is no in between. " This is true..evilwill88

Now this is in my words folks.. God is more powerfull than us and he created whom he wished and calls whom he wishes it is in His power do do so and he does as he pleases..8o 8o 8o

The rest of this post are Bible Quotes.....
Romans 9:20
Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


Proverbs 16
4&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The LORD has made all for Himself,
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Jeremiah 1
4Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Before you were born I sanctified you;

Romans 8
29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Romans 8 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.[/quote]

I'm glad someone else sees things in my view. We chose to be human, we didnt have to question god, but why are here because of it, and we were there before it.

[dutchie]

So there you go with free will: God does as he pleases; he even created people to doom?!?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom[/quote]

That reduces us to rubber duckies in Gods tub....

[paul]

That scripture is saying that God has the right to destroy life, seeing as he was the one who created it. He is the only one with that right.

The wicked are that way by choice. Wickedness is an act or behavior. No one was created wicked, they choose to be.

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

Well, Paul, that's all fine, but I can't say I can find that in the quote, it quite clearly states that god created the wicked to do with as he pleases...

[paul]

Dutchie,

What is the Scriptural reference?

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is the Scriptural reference?[/quote]

I'm Sorry, Don't understand what you mean...

[paul]

Scriptural reference = where it is found in the Scriptures.

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

Proverbs 16:4

It was in a post by opinionsarelikenoses on the previous page. When you're posting, it is wise - in light of the original topic - to read the whole thread first.

[paul]

Dutchie,

Are you suggesting that God created bad morals? That he is injurious, malevolent, or destructive in his influences? Are you suggesting he created wickedness?

Peace,

Paul

[lazserus]

Well, according to common belief God created everything from the heavens to the thoughts in your head. This would include your wickedness. You can use the argument of free will - but that's for another topic in this forum that's been discussed.

In order to truly believe in free will you must believe that there is no fate/destiny or future set in place.

So, with out free will then God created wickedness. With free will - well, Christians get stuck in a paradox if we include true free will. :)

[paul]

I fail to see the paradox. God created us with a desire to be loved by us. Because he created us, he knows what is best for us as individuals and as a race. Because he was our creator and our sovereign, he laid down a simple rule. Don't eat of this one tree in the garden. The first two humans selfishly disrespected that one rule. They made a choice to suffer the consequences of that act, to attempt to be like God, knowing good and bad. Rather than loving God, they chose to rebel against him. They chose to be like God, the same thing Satan did. Their choice cost them their lives, as was warned. God did not create wickedness. He created free will. Inherent in free will is the ability to choose to do wrong. You may argue that in effect he created wickedness, however, he did not. Satan did. And we did. By choosing that path. God created us to love ourselves, each other and him, and instead mankind has harmed himself, each other and spit in God's face, so to speak. God did not ask us to do that. We simply chose to.

Peace,

Paul

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You may argue that in effect he created wickedness, however, he did not. Satan did. And we did. By choosing that path. [/quote]

I thought God created Satan, and us. Thus, in effect, God created sin. If there isn't something strange into this, I'll eat my motorcycle helmet.

[evilwill88]

Bascially it goes like this. God created heaven and all that other stuff including angels. Lucifer was god's best or highest angel. Then lucifer defied god and was cast into hell. (which god also apparentlly created)

In conclusion....... lucifer is god's mistake. And it came back to bite him in the arse. If you trace things back.....you could say that god created sin.

But sin isn't really a thing. It is a concept.

[dutchie]

That doesn't matter: concepts are part of creation too...

[DigglerD]

It could also be said that god created sin because he created the tree and thus created the avenue for sin. If god never created the tree, man would not have had the ability to sin. Now some would say this denys us of our free will, however it does not. Given the absence of sin's existence we would still have free will just not the ability to sin because it would not exist.

God created Satan...
God created the tree...
God created us knowing we would sin...rgardless of if we had a choice or not...
God created Lucifer knowing he would rebel and entice sin...

God created sin...

[paul]

Sin is a missing of the mark, literally. At least according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the "mark" that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also called unrighteousness or lawlessness.

Romans chapter 3 verse 23 states: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

1 John chapter 5 verse 17 states: "All unrighteousness is sin; and yet there is a sin that does not incur death."

Chapter 3 verse 4 of the same book says: "Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness."

Sin is anything that is out of harmony with God's personality, standards, ways, and will, all of which are holy. It could be wrong conduct, failure to do what should be done, ungodly speech, unclean thoughts, or desires or motives that are selfish. There is a differentiation in the Bible between inherited sin and willful sin, as one is an act over which a person is repentant and the other is the practice of sin.

Many believe that Adam's sin was God's will, or plan.

However, this is unreasonable. Think about it. If I were to do something that you wanted me to do, would you condemn me for it? If Adam's sin was God's will, why was he driven out of Eden as a sinner?

Genesis chapter 3 verses 17 through 19 states: "And to Adam he said: "Because you listened to your wife's voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, 'You must not eat from it,' cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.""

Verses 23 and 24 of the same chapter in Genesis state: "With that God put him out of the garden of E'den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E'den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life."

According to the Bible, is God the type of person that would condemn a person for doing something that he planned for him to do? Is that just or loving?

1) God is a God of love. 1 John chapter 4 verse 8 says: "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

All of Gods ways are just. Psalms chapter 37 verse 28 says: "For God is a lover of justice, And he will not leave his loyal ones. To time indefinite they will certainly be guarded; But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off."

Deuteronomy chapter 32 verse 4 is quoted above and shows that God's ways are all just.

It was not God's will for Adam to sin. He warned Adam against it. Genesis chapter 2 verse 17 which is quoted above shows he warned Adam against it.

2) God did not allow Adam, as he does us, the freedom to choose what he would do. While Adam was perfect, he was still able to exercise his free will and disobey. He chose to rebel against God, despite God warning him that he would die if he did so.

When God created Adam and Eve he told them at Genesis chapter 1 verse 28: "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.""

In chapter 2 verses 16 and 17 God told the pair that they could eat from all of the trees but one. If they were to eat from that tree they would positively die.

Now think about it. We are God's children, as were Adam and Eve. Would you encourage your children to undertake a project and tell them they had a marvelous future in store for them when you knew from the start their project was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing you had planned everything so that they would most certainly come to grief? Of course not. It's unreasonable. As is the idea that God had planned for Adam to sin.

Matthew chapter 7 verse 11 states: "Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam's sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy and the disease.

Psalms chapter 5 verse 4 states: "For you are not a God taking delight in wickedness; No one bad may reside for any time with you."

Psalms chapter 11 verse 5 states: "God himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates."

Titus chapter 1 verse 2 states: "upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,"

Psalms chapter 72 verse 14 states: "From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul, And their blood will be precious in his eyes."

1 John chapter 4 verse 8 states that God is love.

Psalms chapter 33 verse 5 says: "He is a lover of righteousness and justice. With the loving-kindness of God the earth is filled."

Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

Satan is the spirit creature who is the chief adversary of God and of all who worship the true God. The name Satan was given to him because he became a resister of God. Satan is also known as the Devil, because he is the foremost slanderer of God. Satan is described as the original serpent, because he used a serpent in Eden to deceive Eve, and from this "serpent" came to signify "deceiver." In the book of Revelation, the symbolism of a devouring dragon is applied to Satan.

It is true that all of God's works are perfect as is noted in Deuteronomy chapter 32 verse 4.

Psalms chapter 5 verse 4 states God does not take delight in wickedness and that no one bad may reside with him for any amount of time. He certainly didn't create anyone wicked.

Originally, Satan was a perfect spirit son of God.

John chapter 8 verse 44 states: "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." This Scripture indicates that Satan was at one time "in the truth."

Satan was no different than any of God's other intelligent creatures. This spirit son was endowed with free will. He abused his freedom of choice by allowing feelings of self-importance to develop in his heart. He began to crave worship that belonged only to God, and so enticed Adam and Eve to listen to him rather than to obey God. This is the course he chose to take. This action made him "Satan," which means "adversary."

James chapter 1 verses 14 and 15 state: "But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death."

Therefore, 1) according to Scripture, as is quoted, God did not create sin. Rather, he set the standards for his creations. When they fell short of that mark, they, n effect, created sin, a willfull act of doing wrong. Without the ability to sin, we have no free will. Free will is a choice. If we choose to do good, we still have free will, and are rewarded for the good we do. If we choose to do wrong, we also have free will, but must suffer the consequences of our action. Man was not sinful until he fell short of the mark, of the standards God set. Either way, he would have retained that free will.

2) God did not create Satan, Satan created himself, by his own free will choice, by his own action.

3) God did not know or plan that mankind would fall short of the mark, in other words, to sin.

4) God did not create Satan, or know that Satan would fall short of the mark he set for his spirit sons.

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

Wow, Paul! These are some pretty heavy things you're stating here:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>God did not create Satan, Satan created himself, by his own free will choice, by his own action.[/quote]
That makes Satan pretty much God's equal, doesn't it?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>God did not know or plan that mankind would fall short of the mark, in other words, to sin[/quote]
I can not imagine God to be that naive.... Especially about his own creation... I can not believe God had no pre-knowledge of mankind being bad to the bone...

[paul]

>That makes Satan pretty much God's equal, doesn't it?


No it doesn't. God created him as an angel, one of importance. This angel chose to become Satan the Devil.

>I can not imagine God to be that naive.... Especially >about his own creation... I can not believe God had no >pre-knowledge of mankind being bad to the bone...

God is a being who uses his power discriminately. Not using that power to foresee how each individual would use or abuse their power of free will is not naive. It was His provision to allow his intelligent creations to make choices, be it good or bad.

The Scriptures make it clear that God only looks forward in time when he feels it is necessary.

Peace,

Paul

[dutchie]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>God is a being who uses his power discriminately. Not using that power to foresee how each individual would use or abuse their power of free will is not naive. It was His provision to allow his intelligent creations to make choices, be it good or bad.
The Scriptures make it clear that God only looks forward in time when he feels it is necessary.[/quote]

Give me one (please, no more than one!!) passage where this is stated in a very CLEAR way, not to be misinterpreted to mean anything else.

[paul]

I'm still searching for that Scripture. There is a scripture that states that God chooses when to use his powers to look forward. I'm having trouble finding it though. As soon as I do I'll post it.

Peace,

Paul

[steven marshall]

Paul,

I think you will have tremendous difficulty finding a scripture suggesting this. I have never come across one. Even if God has the ability to do this (which I doubt) then the scripture does not indicate that he has ever carried this out.

I used to believe that God was not bound by time. Its an interesting philosophy, but I see very little in scripture to even hint that it is true.

PS. Your posts regarding free will, sin and satan are very informative.

[dutchie]

Well, I don't want to make fun out of your wandering off into the mist here, Paul, but.... That's what you get when you suffer from overcertainty....

[Bigsky770]

I've read all the posts up to this point- - Many deep, paradoxical questions about God, The Divinity, Lucifer/Satan, Man, etc... The only conclusion I can possibly reach is that (there is NO CONCLUSION) Perhaps what I believe may not matter for a whole hill of coffee-beans but, (nonwithstanding) I am still searching- - (Agnostic) I believe in a GOD, I hate to say this about the "Bible" though I just believe it to be hopelessly flawed- - Written & re-written, Translated and changed, even upon reading it you can see for yourself the handicraft here in that the writers each of their own work give a DIFFERENT picture as to what THEY THINK GOD is all about!! Summarily, Re-writers try to mutate those original meanings into something THEY CAN GRASP!- - Then with all reason thrown out the window we are left to believe it is all-so-mystical, AND that GOD could NEVER BE UNDERSTOOD.
Perhaps "RELIGION" is a confluence of "ALL RELIGIONS" in that a "Common Ground" needs to be sought if we are to survive at all. . I know that what I say may seem sort of "New Ageish" "One World Religion" But, would THAT BE SO BAD? (as opposed to everyone arguing as to what they THINK GOD INTENDED?) I really do believe that GOD gave us eyes to see and a heart to know deep within ourselves right from wrong- - - Just steer that course, and you'll never be wrong!

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Perhaps "RELIGION" is a confluence of "ALL RELIGIONS"[/quote]

Yes i agree with you. "True religion" is like a rainbow and each "sub religion" (Christianity, Islam, et al) is a different color, you can not only see the color blue and say you have seen the rainbow, the same applies for each "sub religion" in relation to the "true religion!"

[dutchie]

OK, but we have been wondering off from the original topic way too far, so I'll give it once more:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Jesus' death on the cross was INEVITABLE, because:
1.) if he never died he would not have been human,
2.) if he had died of old age that would have been proof that he was a sinner, death being the punishment for sin, execution of verdict, originating from Paradise. Jesus is the son of God and together with the Holy Spirit forming the Trinity. This is omnipotent, but incapable of commiting sin. Jesus - being a human being - could die, but - being without sin - could NEVER have died of old age, because death in itself is the punishment for sin.[/quote]
Now Mensa, You and I have had some rolling over the ground about who and what God is, but I haven't read your comments on THIS one...

[PyramidHeadMaster]

the bible is riddled with mistranslation, the true translation of sin is error, and error means: The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior. so god gave us a code of behavior and sinning is deviating from it. I know it's a little off topic, but since sin has been mentioned alot and if you think of it as an error it might make everyone see sin differently.

[dutchie]

Thanks for clarifying this. Now for the reaction on my paradox:

[VegasRonin]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yes i agree with you. "True religion" is like a rainbow and each "sub religion" (Christianity, Islam, et al) is a different color, you can not only see the color blue and say you have seen the rainbow, the same applies for each "sub religion" in relation to the "true religion!" [/quote]
I really like that statement. Now if we could erase all the infidel and hate from some of these religious texts and preach that message, things would get a lot better.

[dutchie]

Thanks for clarifying this. Now for the reaction on my paradox:

Are you guys ignoring me on purpose?

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jesus' death on the cross was INEVITABLE, because:
1.) if he never died he would not have been human,
2.) if he had died of old age that would have been proof that he was a sinner, death being the punishment for sin, execution of verdict, originating from Paradise. Jesus is the son of God and together with the Holy Spirit forming the Trinity. This is omnipotent, but incapable of commiting sin. Jesus - being a human being - could die, but - being without sin - could NEVER have died of old age, because death in itself is the punishment for sin.[/quote]
.........................

Reply

1. If jesus really died, how did he raise himself from the dead? Did Jesus alter the definition of death, or are we still living with the definition of death before his ressurection?

2.If the price of being a human is a sin, then jesus could not have been human. Infact from what i understand he was the son of God. You see who you are because you see yourself through the eyes of someone else, and who you are to someone else is how you see them as. Jesus was in the light of God, he did not see himself through the eyes of man, but through the eyes of God and when people saw jesus, they saw themselves as sinners.

[dutchie]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Did Jesus alter the definition of death[/quote]
Yes, I think that is the <strong>essence of christian religion</strong>. Do not confuse this with my personal belief. I have been thinking long and hard about this, and I think there you hit the nail on the head.

There we come on 2.) I think Jesus' being a human being is <strong>essential</strong> in the christian religion and - during his life on earth - his only reason for being here; his <strong>only</strong> reason for living as a human being was his untimely death. The fact that he woke himself from the dead forming his victory over evil.

In this lies the paradox. This makes the christian faith worthwhile discussing, though. Think about it, Mensa!

[Mensa Genius]

Was the act of jesus sacrificing himself for us sin? If not then isnt it possible Jesus died with sin but without commiting it.

[dutchie]

mmm, I should say - from a christian's point of view - you're twisting it around... From what I gather Jesus was a human and AS SUCH was to be punished by death. Only thing is that God was OK with Jesus taking punishment for all mankind. This means that not fysical death was taken away, but mental death; the eternal separation from God in the void, sometimes referred to as hell.

This is what I understand from the christian faith, if I'm wrong please correct me.

Now it's a funny thing IMO that God - knowing that we would sin - would let us do that, knowing that he would HAVE to take on a human form, punish himself, eventually accomplishing nothing, because most of mankind does not believe his sacrifice to be true or genuine. It just does not make any sense at all.

[Mensa Genius]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>mmm, I should say - from a christian's point of view - you're twisting it around... [/quote]

I didnt know that was the perspective you were writing from :) ! maybe if we had one of those six hats :p

[dutchie]

mine was purple with yellow stripes and green little balls...

[Mensa Genius]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[dutchie]

Right, enough laughing: now answer the post, Mensa!:cool:

[mickydoolittle]

the all powerful creator wanted to gain redemption in the eyes of it's creation so it offered humanity the sacrafice of its son.

Munchausen byproxie Syndrome anyone?

Yeah, narciscism at its best.

[dutchie]

the all powerful creator wanted to gain redemption in the eyes of it's creation so it offered humanity the sacrafice of its son.

Munchausen byproxie Syndrome anyone?

Yeah, narciscism at its best.
Killing the son to get attention?!? Nah, I would have done that in a more spectacular way, if I were the allmighty... Placing a second moon in the sky would have been cool, someting like that. Why doesn't God just SHOW himself, with lots of boombadoom and tarararaaaah??

Sacrificing the son, and after that the resurrection, was written in scriptures to tie up all the loose ends in the dogmatics. I have never doubted some ppl of superior intelligenve were behind the New Testament, it's quite clever in its setup actually.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Killing the son to get attention?!? Nah, I would have done that in a more spectacular way, if I were the allmighty... Placing a second moon in the sky would have been cool, someting like that. Why doesn't God just SHOW himself, with lots of boombadoom and tarararaaaah??

Sacrificing the son, and after that the resurrection, was written in scriptures to tie up all the loose ends in the dogmatics. I have never doubted some ppl of superior intelligenve were behind the New Testament, it's quite clever in its setup actually.
Dutchie, do you as a father do everything for your children or do you allow them to make mistakes and learn from them as you have done yourself?
Most parents recognize the importance of children experiencing things and being guided and encouraged to make the right choices. Since God quietly guides all his children through the Holy Spirit and it is our responsibility to listen for that is our freewill. God has made numerous grand appearances, preforming wonders and miracles and protecting his obedient servants. He has made signs in the heaven and signs upon the earth. At his last appearance which was two fold and started in 1844, he released to mankind knowledge and understanding that has not been seen in 500,000 years and is pushing mankind forward at an ever increasing pace. All this knowledge has good and bad aspects and so it is that mankind has to learn to use this knowledge in a safe and controlled manner. Ask yourself the question why now and not 2000 years ago? What is so special about this time in history?
Man has been increasingly able to over come the most potent forces of the environment, such is the capacity of the human mind and yet the internal battles that rage inside of each one of us which can be overcome continue to devastate humanity as a whole. Tearing apart personal relationships of every kind, families, friendships and nations. The most dangerous battles are within ourselves and yet the cure is kept away by the exact same force that keeps us in bondage and that is the natural body.

[SeekNDestroy]

Substand/DBA, I put your last 2 posts into a new thread: http://www.armageddononline.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1728

[eyekwah]

why bother talkin about sombody who whe av hardly any proof exsited




Mo righ's mo dhuchaich

[johnb1]

IT Is INEVITABLE for us to think in our first thinking but thinking with the help of GOD more wisely and carefully it is EVITABLE but it is not our problem it is the LORD our JESUS Christ want it that way, just think the simple LOGIC, my deepest apologies sorry for my reasoning if its not clear try ask OUR Leader for clear answer that you want to know. http://esoriano.wordpress.com/ask-bro-eli/ Hebrews 10:6-7