Researcher claims evidence Mayans immigrated to Georgia

[Nu Kua]

I understand this might fit better on one of the other sections of this sub-forum, but I'm just not sure which one.

I am looking for another source. Anybody have more information? This is quoted from Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/architecture-design-in-national/massive-1-100-year-old-maya-site-discovered-georgia-s-mountains).

Anyhow, long story short, it is believed b y the author and some other researchers/archeologists that some Mayan commoners, fleeing their Central American homeland due to natural disasters, famine, and war, eventually settled in the South Eastern U.S. and perhaps became part of the Creek Indians.


Archaeological zone 9UN367 at Track Rock Gap, near Georgia’s highest mountain, Brasstown Bald, is a half mile (800 m) square and rises 700 feet (213 m) in elevation up a steep mountainside. Visible are at least 154 stone masonry walls for agricultural terraces, plus evidence of a sophisticated irrigation system and ruins of several other stone structures. Much more may be hidden underground. It is possibly the site of the fabled city of Yupaha, which Spanish explorer Hernando de Soto failed to find in 1540, and certainly one of the most important archaeological discoveries in recent times. ...

It's a fascinating article and I want to learn more. Just to quote one more bit of it,


...In particular, the languages of the Creek Indians contain many Mesoamerican words...

...Residents in the nearby village of Sautee generally assume that the massive five-sided pyramidal mound is a large wooded hill. Williams found that the mound had been partially sculpted out of an existing hill then sculpted into a final form with clay. He estimated the construction date to be no later than 900 AD. Williams was unable to determine who built the mound.

Williams is a highly respected specialist in Southeastern archaeology so there was a Maya connection that he did not know about. The earliest maps show the name Itsate, for both a native village at Sautee and another five miles away at the location of the popular resort of Helen, GA. Itsate is what the Itza Mayas called themselves. Also, among all indigenous peoples of the Americas, only the Itza Mayas and the ancestors of the Creek Indians in Georgia built five-side earthen pyramids as their principal mounds. It was commonplace for the Itza Maya to sculpt a hill into a pentagonal mound. There are dozens of such structures in Central America. ...


...The archaeological site would have been particularly attractive to Mayas because it contains an apparently dormant volcano fumarole that reaches down into the bowels of the earth. People of One Fire researchers have been aware since 2010 that when the English arrived in the Southeast, there were numerous Native American towns named Itsate in Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina and western North Carolina. They were also aware that both the Itza Mayas of Central America and the Hitchiti Creeks of the Southeast actually called themselves Itsate . . . and pronounced the word the same way. The Itsate Creeks used many Maya and Totonac words. Their architecture was identical to that of Maya commoners. The pottery at Ocmulgee National Monument (c 900 AD) in central Georgia is virtually identical to the Maya Plain Red pottery made by Maya Commoners. However, for archaeologists to be convinced that some Mayas immigrated to the Southeast, an archaeological site was needed that clearly was typical of Mesoamerica, but not of the United States.

In July of 2011, Waldrup furnished a copy of the 2000 Stratum Unlimited, LLC archaeological report to People of One Fire members. Those with experiences at Maya town sites instantly recognized that the Track Rock stone structures were identical in form to numerous agricultural terrace sites in Chiapas, Guatemala, Belize and Honduras. Johannes Loubser’s radiocarbon dates exactly matched the diaspora from the Maya lands and the sudden appearance of large towns with Mesoamerican characteristics in Georgia, Alabama and southeastern Tennessee. Track Rock Gap was the “missing link” that archaeologists and architects had been seeking since 1841. ...

P.S.

I found this comment by Richard Thornton, the author of the article, in reply to other comments and such posted where I first found the story, Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/12/22/1100-year-old-mayan-ruins-found-in-north-georgia/):


To answer your questions - then I got reporters coming over this morning.

About the artifacts. People need to read my article rather than make comments based on comments from people who didn't read the article and don't know a thing about the Creek People. What we Creeks are saying is that the culture of the Maya COMMONERS blended with the indigenous Muskogeans to create the mound building culture. The architecture of a Maya commoners village was identical to that of a ancestral Creek town. I have seen no evidence that the literate Maya elite came to North America - but some may have.

DNA - yes, Georgia and South Carolina mixed blood Creeks are showing up with Highland Maya DNA -trace amounts - 1-7%. I have 3% Maya and 1% Polynesian. Some Creeks are also showing up with trace amounts of Pima DNA. The Pima lived in the northern Mexican deserts. I don't know what that means.

As far as asking "experts" - Keep in mind that these anthropologists know virtually nothing about our language and culture . . . or even our physiology. In fact, I seriously doubt that UGA even has anyone now who is knowledgeble about either Mesoamerican or Muskogean architecture. How can they comment on something about which they know nothing? They are basing their answers on political considerations - protecting the reputation of books published by UGA professors. My book contains the results of the research several dozen Native American scholars with advanced degrees - over a period of five years. The information can not be summarized into the size of a text message.

For examples of physical similarities, Georgia Creeks share several physical traits with the Highland Maya. We both have a large bump at the back of the head under the bony ridge, known here as a Creek Knot. We both have small ears with virtually no lobes and small straight noses totally unlike stereotypical Native Americans. ...

Also, tagging at the end of the article in the Examiner- for more information:


Richard Thornton has written a book on the Archaeological Site 9UN367 and the evidence of the immigration of Mesoamerican refugees to North America. It will be available from the publisher in early January 2012, and is entitled, “Itsapa . . . the Itza Mayas in North America.” The book includes over 250 full color, virtual reality images and photographs, including pictures of identical Maya agricultural terrace sites in Chiapas, Guatemala, Campeche and Belize. Indiana film maker, John Haskell is also producing a documentary film on the Maya diaspora.

The previously unknown story is fascinating. For example, the famous “eye on hand” motif found on Native American art throughout the Southeast and Midwest is the symbol of the Maya’s supreme deity, Hunab-ku. For information on reserving or ordering Thornton’s book, go to www.historyrevealedmedia.com.

I, for one, am looking forward to that book. :thumbs:

P.S.S.:

Googling "Archaeological Site 9UN367" yields more info, too, such as this paper (http://www.stratumunlimited.com/uploads/4/8/1/5/4815662/track_rock_paper.pdf) (pdf)
"AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL AND ETHNOHISTORICAL APPRAISAL OF A PILED STONE FEATURE COMPLEX IN THE MOUNTAINS OF NORTH GEORGIA"
(which a quick scan reveals it doesn't go into the Mayan connection Thornton speaks of, but he mentions that)

and this interesting blog on stone structures in New England and SE United States, Rock Piles (http://rockpiles.blogspot.com/2010/06/archaeological-and-ethnohistorical.html), which shares a picture here.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o60/oceanfloats/EastRuinscairnonboulder.jpg

For more info-
People of One Fire (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/people/)


Architect Richard Thornton is a member of an alliance of Creek, Choctaw and Seminole scholars, who over the past seven years have been intensely studying the heritage of the Muskogean peoples. Much of their activities have involved re-examination of the archives of the early Spanish, English and French exploration of the Southeastern United States. They also have been comparing Muskogean words with those of several indigenous languages of Mexico and Central America. They have found many examples of words that are identical or almost identical in sound, that mean the same in the two languages. In particular, the Hitchiti-Creek language contains many links to the Itza Maya language. Richard is editor of the newsletter distributed to the alliance, which is known as "the People of One Fire."...

:2thumbs:

[Blu-ray]

Well this is kind of neat! The Mayans fled their godless land for the holy god filled land of America.

But it would be interesting to find out the Mayans fled and became some of the Naive Americans that were here when the Europeans landed here.

[Dantelliott]

Uga professor Stephen kowalewski has studied hundreds of domestic structure ruins in mesoamerica and professor mark Williams has explored more domestic aboriginal dwellings in Georgia than any living person...so mr. Thornton speaks untruths on the subject of uga anthropological expertise. More on my blog dantelliott/Wordpress.com

[Nu Kua]

We do not want to go to your blog to get your input. This is a discussion forum, why not share your input here?

btw, Welcome to AO. :)

[tahn1000]

there's a serious amount of resistence to the notion that the ancient peoples werent so "primitive" or "isolated" isn't there...

the notion that 18th century man (the century when so much was invented and so much "discovered" about the past) was not at the pinicle of human evolution in terms of society and culture was and still is a bitter pill to swallow. of course modern man is at the top of civilization, of course ancient man was primitive and running around in furs.

i wonder how much of the past was destroyed because it didn't fit into the preconceived notions of when "enlightened" civilization began.

[Nu Kua]

there's a serious amount of resistence to the notion that the ancient peoples werent so "primitive" or "isolated" isn't there...

the notion that 18th century man (the century when so much was invented and so much "discovered" about the past) was not at the pinicle of human evolution in terms of society and culture was and still is a bitter pill to swallow. of course modern man is at the top of civilization, of course ancient man was primitive and running around in furs.

i wonder how much of the past was destroyed because it didn't fit into the preconceived notions of when "enlightened" civilization began.

Yes... takes some of the shine off of that shining armor... and a ton of the past was destroyed because so often history is written to fit those pre-conceived notions... not always on purpose, I am sure. I think people see what they want to see, or they base what they see on what they think they already know.

[Ningishiddza]

Anyhow, long story short, it is believed b y the author and some other researchers/archeologists that some Mayan commoners, fleeing their Central American homeland due to natural disasters, famine, and war, eventually settled in the South Eastern U.S. and perhaps became part of the Creek Indians.

Thornton is an architect and designer.

The peer-reviewed work published by Loubser, the South African archaeologist hired by the US Forestry Service to investigate the site can be found here:

AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL AND ETHNOHISTORICAL APPRAISAL OF A PILED STONE FEATURE COMPLEX IN THE MOUNTAINS OF NORTH GEORGIA

http://www.stratumunlimited.com/uploads/4/8/1/5/4815662/track_rock_paper.pdf

The report (which I down-loaded) contains a number of very nice maps.

I will quote Loubser:

The site discussed is not unique in the Unites States. Many similar stone feature sites can be found in the Appalachians (some of which are historic Euro- Amercian agricultural sites).
I found no evidence of a Maya presence at this site.[emphasis mine].

Remember the Maya are the last cultural group to arrive on the scene in Meso-America and therefore the youngest. All that the Maya know they learned from the other older cultural groups. Just because there's a site doesn't automatically make it Maya. It could easily be Chimichec, Toltec, Aztec, Incan, or any number of other non-Mayan groups.

In fact, it would be more likely to be non-Mayan than Mayan. When people flee an area, it is migrate, stop, secure and live for several generations. Wash, Rinse and Repeat for several thousand years. That rules out the Maya, but not previous older Meso-American cultures, such as the Incas, who were big into terraced farming on mountain sides. This would be same case as the Shumerians. They didn't just flee Shumer in 2,000 BCE and arrive in Romania a few days later. It took the Shumerians about 2,000 years to migrate up the Tigris River into Turkey, through Turkey, around the north side of the Black Sea, to the Carpathians, where apparently they split into groups, one group moving northwest through the Carpathians to the Tatra Ranges (Polish-Slovakian border) --- those people are the Goral Peoples who speak Dacian based on Shumerian -- and the other moving southwest across Mutenia, Oltenia and into the Pannonian Basin, where they built Sarmezigetsua (in Shumerian Sar.me.zi.ge.zu.a or "the circle of knowledge of heaven and earth" -- a solunar observatory used to watch the planets, solstices and eclipses). Those people were the Dacians. A third band continued south along the Dunarea to Bulgaria and were known as the Thracians.

At the end of the 3rd Sun, there was a calamity referred to as Storms & Quakes. That would have been around 4,000 BCE or so. Those people began migrating, and it would have taken them about 4,000 years to move up through Central American around the Gulf into flat plains and then up into Appalachian Mountains in the area of Tennessee, Georgia, North Carolina and Virgina. You wonder why they did not go up the Mississippi. I suspect they were not a boat culture. Although it is true that the Incans, Aztecs and many others had experience navigating on large lakes, that isn't the same skill-set as river navigation. Still, you wonder how they crossed the Mississippi. Perhaps they enlisted the aid of local groups to help. Anyway, it appears that whatever group it was, they sought out mountains, which is not likely for Mayans.

[Nu Kua]

Okay, but still some questions.

What do you make of the ""eye on hand” motif found on Native American art throughout the Southeast and Midwest [that] is the symbol of the Maya’s supreme deity, Hunab-ku"?

or,
"Georgia Creeks share several physical traits with the Highland Maya. We both have a large bump at the back of the head under the bony ridge, known here as a Creek Knot. We both have small ears with virtually no lobes and small straight noses totally unlike stereotypical Native Americans. ... "?

or, of some word similarities?

"...
They were also aware that both the Itza Mayas of Central America and the Hitchiti Creeks of the Southeast actually called themselves Itsate . . . and pronounced the word the same way. The Itsate Creeks used many Maya and Totonac words. Their architecture was identical to that of Maya commoners. The pottery at Ocmulgee National Monument (c 900 AD) in central Georgia is virtually identical to the Maya Plain Red pottery made by Maya Commoners. However, for archaeologists to be convinced that some Mayas immigrated to the Southeast, an archaeological site was needed that clearly was typical of Mesoamerica, but not of the United States. "?

[Ningishiddza]

Okay, but still some questions.

What do you make of the ""eye on hand” motif found on Native American art throughout the Southeast and Midwest [that] is the symbol of the Maya’s supreme deity, Hunab-ku"?

Peru.

Read Schuster. That would indicate the origin is Incan or pre-Incan peoples. If you want something newer, read Schwartz. Of course, it could be Turkic. Or Indian (as in from India), or it could be the Middle East. We have them in Ohio. Eye/Hand motif is quite common. It would be absurd to suggest it originated with the Maya, since it was in use long before they existed. I think people got Maya-on-the-brain disease.

Also, Hunab-ku is not supreme Mayan deity. The supreme Mayan deity is Itzamna, the god of heaven and all other gods.


"Georgia Creeks share several physical traits with the Highland Maya. We both have a large bump at the back of the head under the bony ridge, known here as a Creek Knot. We both have small ears with virtually no lobes and small straight noses totally unlike stereotypical Native Americans. ... "?

Not uncommon to pass physical traits through inter-marriage when passing through a region. In any event, that trait is not unique to Highland Maya.


or, of some word similarities?

Same thing. That's why you say the Germanic father/vater instead of the Latin tatal.


I]"...
They were also aware that both the Itza Mayas of Central America and the Hitchiti Creeks of the Southeast actually called themselves Itsate . . . and pronounced the word the same way. The Itsate Creeks used many Maya and Totonac words. Their architecture was identical to that of Maya commoners. The pottery at Ocmulgee National Monument (c 900 AD) in central Georgia is virtually identical to the Maya Plain Red pottery made by Maya Commoners. However, for archaeologists to be convinced that some Mayas immigrated to the Southeast, an archaeological site was needed that clearly was typical of Mesoamerica, but not of the United States. "[/I]?

Itza is probably a corruption of the Andean Atzla.

If you take the other route, which would be that Itza is a corruption of Itz-ha, which would be "magic waters" that would be a reference to Lake Titicaca, which brings us right back to the Andes Mountains.

All this does is prove that the Land Bridge Theory is bullshit.

South America was populated first, and the various peoples continually migrated north up into the US, not from Siberia to Alaska and then south into Central and South America. That is freaking stupid (not to mention contrary to the evidence).

[TC]

Something to think about, while native stone age peoples of the Americas have DNA similar to that of Asians, they also carry an amount only found in European people.

Around 18,000 years ago the earth was still in an ice age, incredible amounts of sea water were used up to create the 2km high ice sheets that dominated the northern hemisphere, ocean levels during the last glacial maximum were some 120m lower than today, as well as distances between continents.

Enough evidence shows that people made the journey, both to north and south America. This theory was first put forth in the 50s, but it was ignored by the accepted idea of a singular migration across the Baring.

But we have a stone age people who lived in southern Spain and France some 25,000 years ago who fashioned uniquely polished fluted spear points, these people were known as Solutrean and this same spear point is used in the identification of the Cloves group.

Stone works and burial sites suggest a southern migration along the American Atlantic seaboard, completely contrary to a theory of a northward migration of Asian oriented peoples. Eventually these two distinct groups meet, and good evidence points to a new group evolving from this union. Theory mind you, but an acceptable picture non the less, and would certainly help fill in the blanks.

I would add a bit of my own theory, in as much that the northeastern tribes of Native Americans have large body frame and distinct facial features, with jutting jaw formation and strong hooked noses, something quite different from the classic Asian. This would suggest a blending of two distinct groups, and defiantly not an eastward migration of coastal Cloves.

[Rockytrawn]

I think the DNA is the key. Much of Indian prehistory has been guesswork. And it was based on assumptions that humans traveled less, and so were more isolated.

Trade goods from South America reached as far as the Indians in New Mexico, where ancient parrot feathers are still horded and treasured.

Ancestrial stories do exist: The Hopis divided their part of the Universe into four colors, representing direction - oddly the east was not included. Black was the north, red the south, white the West Coast and they were the blue people. The colors of the people come from the stones that they exchanged - blue was turquois, black obsidian, red was red coral from the Gulf of Mexico, and white was shells, or the more precious abalone from the West Coast.

One of the biggest problems in tracing their histories was the plague years that killed so many people off. An estimated 90 percent of the population died within a 20 year period from smallpox, although pockets of survivors remained throughout North America.

The Hopis were isolated enough that they could hold their culture together. They claim to have followed a migrtion pattern that went north as far as the 'ice wall', where they turned and came back....but their origin was from the south, and their distant ancestors had come, variously from ships (also mentioned in the Popo Vol), from the underground - up through a hole in the roof of a Kiva, through a hollow reed (this may be a Mayan/Aztec reference to a nose tube through which tobacco and plant fumes were inhaled to give visions of ancestrial spirits), and from a group of people who were rescued by a man named Kokopoli.

Kokopoli is often portrayed as a flute player with a headress of broken feathers. He was a temple musician from Red Masa or Red Temple to the south. There was so sort of a terrible war that took place. He was captured by warriors who disrespected him because he was not trained in weapons. They challanged him to play a traditional song. He explained that once he started he could not stop until it was ended. They got bored and said he was like a cicada. Although they beat him and tortured him, he did not stop playing, and so they asked him what he wanted for a reward. He asked for 50 people and a safe passage. He is considered a prime ancestor and is commemorated with dolls and ceremonial storys. He also appears on a lot of tourist stuff!

[TC]

Douglas Wallace's work is showing an early migration," North America. And there we found a particular mitochondrial DNA lineage which looked like a European lineage over here, which we had defined as lineage X. So it was only found in Europe. It's never found in Asia. But in fact, when we looked at this population of Native Americans, we found that fully 25% of all of the people in this area had X. Now you could argue, oh well, X is just because, since Columbus, some women came over from Europe, happened to marry with these Native Americans, and that's why European X is there. However, again, we use the molecular clock to find out when that X came. We compared the sequence of X from Europe with X from this population, and they came together 15,000 years ago

And we have a stone age people who lived in southern Spain and France some 25,000 years ago who fashioned uniquely polished fluted spear points, these people were known as Solutrean and this same spear point is used in the identification of the Cloves group. Which is why I speculated an arctic passage by hunter/gatherers that reached north America, something that Swafford confirmed as well.

"Dennis Swofford of the Smithsonian has speculated that it was this migration from Europe, from the Iberian peninsula that brought the unique stone culture that we know as the Clovis culture; that is the culture that's been associated with the killing of the woolly mammoths, and the other large animals, and that is just the time that the Clovis culture appears in North America. And the appearance of the Clovis culture in fact heralded the decimation of all the large mammalian fauna.

Wallace continues; "So therefore, this did not come to this region since Columbus; it came after one of the most recent glacial maxima. And so it's been proposed that, in fact when the ice covered the area between Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland, and Europe, that in fact some hunters actually crossed the ice sheet and colonized this part of the Americas.

Its my belief that this "western" migration did indeed take place, and left its mark on the north American continent long before classic Columbian genetic influence.

[Rockytrawn]

There are a lot of pre-iceage fauna that seemed to have migrated between the Americas and other areas including horses, elephants, and monkeys.

Currantly, killer bees, armadillos, and fire ants seem to be able to migrate from south to north...

And plants, such as cotton, and certain squash, seem to have some how arrived from the Mid-east. I have also read reports of cocain like substances being detected in Egytian mummies suggesting that either there were local plants producing similar drugs, which are now extinct, or that there was trade at certain periods between distant areas.

Thus, it would not be surprising for a small group from South America to travel northward, and Georgia is near enough a coast for boats to arrive, shortening the time required to travel. DNA might be able to determine if the Georgians came from Mexico, or further south....

[Dubhtacht]

"AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL AND ETHNOHISTORICAL APPRAISAL OF A PILED STONE FEATURE COMPLEX IN THE MOUNTAINS OF NORTH GEORGIA"
(which a quick scan reveals it doesn't go into the Mayan connection Thornton speaks of, but he mentions that)


And others are absolutely certain that those rock piles were left by Vikings, or Saint Brendan, or the Chinese. Same with other old artifacts in New England, and other places.

[Dubhtacht]

Douglas Wallace's work is showing an early migration," North America. And there we found a particular mitochondrial DNA lineage which looked like a European lineage over here, which we had defined as lineage X. So it was only found in Europe. It's never found in Asia. But in fact, when we looked at this population of Native Americans, we found that fully 25% of all of the people in this area had X. Now you could argue, oh well, X is just because, since Columbus, some women came over from Europe, happened to marry with these Native Americans, and that's why European X is there. However, again, we use the molecular clock to find out when that X came. We compared the sequence of X from Europe with X from this population, and they came together 15,000 years ago


Standard theory has been that NO Europeans came that early, and that the Clovis Culture was strictly based on land migration from Siberia.

THEN arrowheads that DIDN'T match Clovis, and were MUCH earlier were found, and seem to match closely to Silutrian Culture out of France about 40,000 years ago.

And then it was determined that South America was settled at least 30,000 years ago, and by a people that showed a great reliance and familiarity with the sea.

There is LOTS of stuff about our ancestors that we just DON'T KNOW, but some so-called scientists will claim so much with little of no real proof.

[Rockytrawn]

Saw a TV series suggesting that transport of raw copper from America's Great Lakes region occured during ancient times with raw American native copper being found in an ancient ship wreck in Europe. There were suggestions that America helped fuel a pre-iorn age metal boom.

Odd mid-east or Egyptian writing was found in the Anubus Cave in Texas a while back - so there is no telling how much crosspollenation was taking place.

And in my own back yard a neighbor's road making activities seem to have unearthed an Indian Burial Mound. We suspect that the rare plants found in the area were part of an 'ethno-grarden' of medical and edible plants.