Is God More Evil Than Satan?

[dutchie]

The creator had advance knowledge of his creation going wrong (he knows all...) and still persisted on creating. He knew we would sin, he knew that he would insist on a bloody human sacrifice...

He knew all of this, and still he persisted on creating.
God made a choice and knew he was going to make that choice.

Do the angels have a choice between right and wrong? Apparently, or else we wouldn't be stuck with evil in this world. Was Satan the beginning of evil, or was evil already inside of us? Were we CREATED EVIL? And... if we were created in the image of God - in the words of the Bible, where God said that after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, we were LIKE God - is God evil too?!?

Now I will take this into the realm of philosophy: If God knew in advance that Lucifer would turn evil, did God KNOWINGLY create all evil in this world even BEFORE creating mankind? Is then God not just as evil as all of his creation? Could God be LESS evil than his creation, as in: can I create a computer that's more intelligent than I am?
Following this line of thought one should be forced to conclude that God is even MORE evil than Satan....

Alright, shoot me, but you'll have a hard time denying the logic behind this reasoning...

[autryn2]

God didn't create ANYONE to be evil. He created everyone with the ability of choice. Giving the gift of choice to your creations guarentees that some won't choose wisely or make right decisions. No one is walking around saying "I can't help it... I was just made to be evil". Now, God knew in advance that many wouldn't CHOOSE to seek Him or follow the narrow path, but that comes with the territory when you let your creations think and act for themselves.

Farmers all over the world plant their crops knowing that despite all they do, weeds will grow up in their garden... but they still plant. Would you rather God didn't create us at all??? Or would you rather have God create us all to be robots without the gift of choice??? (no you probably wouldn't)

From God's viewpoint (and this is the way we should look at it), its no good MAKING all your creation love you. Let them have choice and then you'll know who your real friends are. God has made all, and gets to harvest all those that truely love Him. He COULD have made us all robots without choice and all would love and serve Him but God didn't take the easy way out. He let us have choice and because of that He has had a world full of trouble. Think of all the sin He sees, think of the innocent crying out to Him, think of all those cursing and hating Him. Its a lot harder for Him to make the world with choice and its a lot harder for us to choose to love and seek Him. Its fair....

BTW, who said that creation was going wrong???

[Doomer]

The gift of choice without the gift of wisdom is like a baby with a loaded gun. Chew on that for a while. :headbang:

[autryn2]

Mickeydolittle wrote:"Evil is inherrent in humanity."
--------------------------------------------------------------
No, mickey.... CHOICE is inherent in humanity. Those that are evil choose to be evil. You, me, and everyone else can be as good, or as bad, as we want. Its our choice.

Now, if you want to blame God for giving us a choice, go for it. I suppose God could have made us so we don't have a choice in how we act, but wouldn't that be kinda boring???? Also, wouldn't you feel justified in being mad at God if He took away your choice????

I believe God has a right to expect His creations to 'grow up' and be responsible during their stay here. I choose to believe that if we, collectively, ignore God and make a bunch of bad choices, and the world suffers for it, its our fault because we COULD have made a bunch of better decisions that would have made our world (and ourselves) better.

The responsibility for our choices is upon US (both individually and collectively).

[jesterbr549]

Following this line of thought one should be forced to conclude that God is even MORE evil than Satan...Alright, shoot me, but you'll have a hard time denying the logic behind this reasoning...

Since I answered this in the original thread, I will provide the same answer here.

Your logic is flawed because you don't understand the Nature of Evil and Good.

Thus, as Cold is the Absense of Heat, Evil is the Absense of Good.

All things were created Good in the beginning and Satan was the first one to become Evil - lack of Goodness.

So, thankfully, we don't have to follow that line of logic.

To each their own...

[DontBeAfraid]

Cold and hot are relatively defined.... One is not the absense of the other.

Just as good and bad are defined. One is not the absense of the other.

The christian God created satan with the knowledge that he would be evil..... even if you use your non argument we still have to say that god created lucifer with the foreknowledge that he would turn away from the light and be evil.... The christian god could make all things good but it allows the evil. Resposibility is determined by how much power you have over a situation occuring. The christian god has unlimited power and is therefore responsible for everything, good and bad.

[dutchie]

What choice exists if one's action is planned and known by a petulant deity that is in control of everything?

This is an important point, Micky is making. If God has foreknowledge of what we will choose, did he then really GIVE us a choice?!? If God KNEW one of his angels would fall and turn evil, was there then really a choice possible for this angel?

And this omnipotent, omnisavent God with an intelligence we could never dream to equal, why did he/she/it then introduce this evil in the world? To test our ability to choose? A choice of which the outcome is already known to him/her/it?
It's like ging a razor to a one month old baby while saying "now be careful with that! You do have a choice here..." Isn't there some cruelty in that?

[RavenWhitefang]

There is no choice according to the bible. At the last supper when Jesus told his diciples that one would betray him, it inevitably happened with Judas. The foreknowledge of the event didn't change the outcome. A pre-destined event that could have been easily avoided with that one statement, that wasnt.

God having created Lucifer, the most beautiful of all the angels, and giving him free will, then ordering the higher being to worship a lower creation would tend to piss one off. There would be respect, not worship. I think god pushed Lucifer to revolt with this, and then punished him for his opinion. The opinion was not evil.

The same was said about Lilith, the first wife of Adam. She would not be subservient to an equal being, and was cast out for non supplication. She was forced to leave Eden for her opinion. Again the opinion was not evil.

The sembelance of free will in the bible is just that, an illusion.

Pachino said it best in The Devils Advocate "Look, but dont touch. Touch, but dont taste. Taste, but dont enjoy."

[autryn2]

Warning from Isaiah to those who question God's motives...

From Isaiah Chapter 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

11 "This is what the LORD says-
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.

[autryn2]

RavenWhitefang wrote:"There is no choice according to the bible. "
------------------------------------------------------------------

From Genesis Chapter 1:"31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
There it is... in black and white... God made EVERYTHING good. Not good looking on the outside and evil on the inside... but good. God didn't make people to sin... He gave them choice.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From Genesis Chapter 4:"6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There it is... in black and white... God gave Cain a CHOICE (actually He gave Adam and Eve a choice, too... you can eat from every tree in the Garden BUT...) Cain chose to let sin have him.... chose not to master it... and went out and killed Abel. When we sin, its OUR choice, not God's.
----------------------------------------------------------
When you allow choice, its pretty easy to understand that some will choose wrong. Knowing that they will doesn't make you the one that is to blame. If its YOUR choice, its YOUR responsibility. Sin crouches at all our doors... we all have to master it.... we all make that choice.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Teachers give tests every day KNOWING that some of their students won't study for them (because of past experience) and will fail. Its not the teachers fault because she (or he) gives a test.... its the students fault for choosing not to study.

[RavenWhitefang]

You have free will only to do things which god allows, all other things dont matter. That is not free will. If God gave Cain the free will to murder his brother, they why should he be punished for his own action borne of free will.

Wait dont tell me...Satan influenced him.

[DontBeAfraid]

If the outcome of an event is already known there is NO CHOICE.... So for us to have choices your god can not be omnipotent.

[jesterbr549]

Cold and hot are relatively defined.... One is not the absense of the other. Just as good and bad are defined. One is not the absense of the other.

"Heat (ht)(Biology, Medicine, Vertebrate Zoology, Mammalogy, Law, Food, Energy) n. Physics 1. a. A form of ENERGY associated with the motion of atoms or molecules and capable of being transmitted through solid and fluid media by conduction, through fluid media by convection, and through empty space by radiation." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heat)

"cold (kld)(Medicine, Physics, Microbiology, Sports, Color) 1. a. Having a low temperature. 2. a. Marked by deficient heat: a cold room."(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cold)

I thought you weren't gonna talk to me any more sweetheart :liar:



The christian God created satan with the knowledge that he would be evil.....

No, Y'hova created Lucifer knowing he would become evil



The Christian god could make all things good but it allows the evil.

No, Y'hova created everything good and "turds" like you screwed it up. So, you are saying that Free Will is Evil?



Resposibility is determined by how much power you have over a situation occuring. The Christian God has unlimited power and is therefore responsible for everything, good and bad.

Absolutely - he has Broad Shoulders and won't have any problem whatsoever casting anyone into hell that don't want to be with him in the Kingdom. Your loss, not ours...

[DontBeAfraid]

So you love a god that would torture "lesser" beings for ETERNITY for crimes it knew they would commit rather than just "fix" the lesser beings?? You and your god are evil....

And once again, if this god knows which choices you will make then there IS NO FREE WILL.

[dutchie]

So you will be cast into hell, DBA.. And jesterbr549 will watch you burn, smiling... :smokin:

[marglarg]

One day, if I have a child, I will best try and influence him / her in the ways of good and righteousness. I will do this by outlining/teaching certain guidelines to which this child of mine should live their life, and they will hopefully carry these ideas with them throughout their adult life. As a parent (one who played a part in creating this child) I know there is only so much I can do for I have given this child life, not to be controlled by me, its’ creator, but to live, grow and hopefully prosper in the ways of good under their own free will.

Even though I have created this child and tried to teach it right from wrong, I would never preside over this child ensuring all its’ actions in life where the ‘right’ actions. Ie. I would not, for want of a better word, ‘hover’ over my child every minute of every day making sure it did right, and scolding it when performing an action I did not agree with. Life is about learning and growing from the mistakes we make.

However, as my child, it will always know nothing but love from me, regardless of its’ actions for I am the one who brought it into this world. Resultant from this I may carry some responsibility but that extends only so far.

I know life is a learning process and we all make mistakes, hopefully learning from them, but the beauty of life is that no one person can tell, or make you do what ‘they’ want.

You have free will and you make your own choices.

Now, should I, the parent of this child, be considered evil if it performs and evil action in life? Should I construct a time machine and go back and never have this child? Should I stop, kill myself and never have children again?

I don’t know if God exists although I do believe there is some higher power at work here. The God A2 describes may be all knowing, it may be omnipotent, it maybe because he exists out of time and can view all in the blink of an eye, who knows. He may know what choices will be made (past and present), but this does not mean he should then ‘control’ every choice, nor should he be then held responsible if those choices are evil.

The world isn’t rosy I know, but imagine, and I mean REALLY imagine, just for one second, what this world would be like if there were absolutely no bad or evil. Our life would be extremely different, our emotions would be extremely different, there would be nothing to strive for, no individuality, no competition, no news for one thing, nothing to scare us or to make our heart race … one word sums it up for me … sterile !

Life is what it is because it’s a challenge, and the evil and bad in the world is what we strive to hold at bay, every minute of every day. Anything less and we are mindless robots living in a sterile container with nought to keep us entertained.

Whether evil is an outcome of choice, or whether it is pre-programmed by whomever, WHO CARES! Be thankful for a place where you CAN experience all of the good and bad because that experience is life itself.

That experience becomes the sum of who we are, and it is nothing short of beautiful.
---------------------------------------------------------
The point I am trying to make here is that in this thread especially, a number of you are trying to make out that this God, if it exists, is evil because it allowed evil to become, to be substantiated in our world. I don’t know whether it did or not but I think in a way to have good, you MUST have evil, whether by choice, freewill or what have you. In a sense it makes life a better experience because it brings those of us who are good, together. We discuss it, we look at ways to overcome it, we strive at ways to become better than we are because we are aware of what evil is. After all, we are on this forum now aren’t we, intelligent, goodly individuals, geographically separated, but together nonetheless.

And what would this world be without Armageddon Online hey, pretty boring don’t you think?

[repentantsinner]

Have'nt you ever seen the movie excalibur? In the words of the wise Merlin...."Good and evil, there never is one without the other" This entire thread is a red herring anyway.

[lazserus]

The main problem with this entire concept is that everyone it attempting to use logical to explain something that is, by nature, illogical.

Let's look at the three characteristics of the Christian god in relation to free will.

Omnipresent
Omnipotent
Omniscient

In order for man to have free will God could not be omniscient. Free will is just as it sounds, freedom to decide anything anywhere, at any time. Thus, God could not be all knowing because he couldn't know what your decision would be. If he knew what your decision would be before you make it then there is no free will, which contradicts omnipotency. God could not give man true free will if he knows what's going to happen before it happens. And if he can't do something, then he can't be all powerful. You could always take the ignorant stand point and just say, "Well, it's God and because he is omnipotent he can do anything with out negating his existence....because He's God." By saying anything remotely similar to that you almost negate your own free will. The lack of intellectual and rational thought, blindly following like a sheep because the Bible says so. There's a huge difference between having faith and being a sheep.

Micky hit the nail on the head when stating:

You insist upon referring to an action that is allegedly already understood and known to occur eons before it actually does, as a choice. What choice exists if one's action is planned and known by a petulant deity that is in control of everything? How much giving is really occurring?
Free will is something WE made up to challenge the illogical explanations written in the Bible. The Bible doesn't include free will, our minds challenge the lack of it written in our holy books; but even by introducing the concept we create more contradictions and paradoxes within Christian text. I'm not saying free will is a facade, I'm just saying some people put entirely too much faith into a book written by thousands of men over the coarse of several thousands of years. Not only was it written by multiple people from all corners of the world, but has been edited by each Christian denomination to fit their personalized beliefs.

RWf made some great comments concerning choice, Lucifer and Lilith. According to myth, Lucifer challenged God's will because he and his companions were cast aside for a mortal. Thus, God tosses him out of Heaven. Is the moral never to challenge God? Sounds more like tyranny and arrogance to me. I believe those are considered sins. Maybe Lucifer is a bad example. Let's look at Lilith's tale. Lilith was cast out of paradise because she would not bow to an equal being. All men are created equal. Does that ONLY apply to man, or are women included in this phrase? If women are included then why would Lilith, the first woman, have to be a servant of Adam? I'll tell you why. The tale of Adam and Eve (which includes Lilith) was written by a MAN in a time period where woman had NO say in western society. While this was common practice in times of antiquity, we do not practice this today. If you look close enough you'll see a barrage of chauvinist propaganda in the Bible. Think about it, ladies. If you believe the literal interpretation of the Bible then you should believe you are lesser to men. I don't buy it, do you?


Warning from Isaiah to those who question God's motives...
Sheep? Fear tactics, my friend. The oldest form of terrorism.


No, Y'hova created everything good and "turds" like you screwed it up.

Absolutely - he has Broad Shoulders and won't have any problem whatsoever casting anyone into hell that don't want to be with him in the Kingdom. Your loss, not ours...
In case you haven't figured this out, comments like these don't help your cause but cripple it. You provide faith-challengers ammunition to support the theory that Christians are ignorant and intolerant. If this is what you want, then continue handing your enemy ammunition.


So you love a god that would torture "lesser" beings for ETERNITY for crimes it knew they would commit rather than just "fix" the lesser beings??
If we ignore the paradox that free will creates within Christian doctrine this statement holds a lot of water. God chooses free will over peace, tranquility? What would be more evil, making an evil man good by negating his free will or allowing an evil man to commit evil against your people? I can say society definitely doesn't function on God's level. We attempt rehabilitate the evil as opposed to just letting them have free will and committing evil. That's like watching a rape and not reporting it.

Ending, good and evil are nothing more than sociological concepts. There is no such thing as either outside of our personal beliefs that have been drilled into us by society. Muslim extemists believe they're doing good by murdering western children. Christian fundamentalists believe they are doing good by blowing up abortion clinics, resulting in murdering people. Every culture has their own take on good and evil and it has been this way since hominids were smart enough to understand basic logic and reason.

[marglarg]

Free will is just as it sounds, freedom to decide anything anywhere, at any time. Thus, God could not be all knowing because he couldn't know what your decision would be. If he knew what your decision would be before you make it then there is no free will, which contradicts omnipotency. God could not give man true free will if he knows what's going to happen before it happens. And if he can't do something, then he can't be all powerful.


Time is a malleable quantity ... if I was able to build a craft capable of travelling in time, and henceforth I was able to travel into the future to see what was resultant of a decision you made regarding some event, does that mean that you would then have 'no free will' ?

[lazserus]

Time is a malleable quantity ... if I was able to build a craft capable of travelling in time, and henceforth I was able to travel into the future to see what was resultant of a decision you made regarding some event, does that mean that you would then have 'no free will' ?
This isn't a very logical question. You're using science fiction to prove/disprove fantasy.

For starters, time travel only exists in the sense that we always move forward in time. When breaking down relativity (which is the main theory that wouldn't allow time travel), one could only feasibly travel backwards in time (if disected properly by the write person). They would only exist as an observer and couldn't interact with matter in that time due to the restrictions of paradox theory. To move forward in time, or travel into the future, would prove predestined events. If there is a future then there is no free will, because choice means naught, your choice has already been recorded, or no matter the choices you make you always end up with the same result. Destriny negates free will.

[marglarg]

So what you are saying is that our current understanding of time is set in stone and the laws that govern it are correct now, and will always be into the future? I hate to break this to you but we have barely scratched the surface IMO.

Although, that aside, the point I'm trying to make is a hypothetical one. God, if it exists may have this ability, and the question I'm putting forward is that if one 'was' able travel in time to see the results of persons decisions, does this negate the free will of the person who makes those decisions in the first place?

God(or some theoretical time travellor) may know what decision was made, but it doesn't mean they have influenced that person in any way into making that decision--you must remember that time is relative.

Just a small portion of what I found on the web:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/exploration/timetravel/index.shtml

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stuff/Jared%20Mixon/page1.htm

http://mac.buf.kristianstad.se/Degeberga/Elevarbeten/SF/eng/time.html

[lazserus]

So what you are saying is that our current understanding of time is set in stone and the laws that govern it are correct now, and will always be into the future?
Absolutely not, I'm just stating based off our current understanding. However, the more we dabble, the closer the theories become more intact.


God, if it exists may have this ability, and the question I'm putting forward is that if one 'was' able travel in time to see the results of persons decisions, does this negate the free will of the person who makes those decisions in the first place?
Yes, this negates free will. Just like I stated previously, if you can travel into the future and see the effects of a decision, that means that decision is made long before you make it, thus you not having free will. If it were truly free will, then there would be no future, because you've not made the decision and could make any decision because it's your freedom. If the decision isn't made then there can't be a future time line with that decision made. If that time line exists then the decision is predestined, thus negating free will. I know you have a strong scientific mind, so another way it could be put is in the the equations of Shrödinger. Is the cat alive or dead before you open the box? It having a wave state previous to you opening it (say if it were dead) then it's dead no matter if you open the box or not. However, if you opening the box collapses the wave function you've just executed a form of free will with out destiny. The two can not coincide.

[marglarg]

I'm coming to grips with what your are saying now ... I guess I've looked at it in the sense that even if someone knows the results of a decision I'll make, does that mean that I have no free will to make a choice in the first place. Its quite paradoxial if that is the correct word.

Ie. From my perspective I will make a decision based on my own thoughts, not someone elses, and for me that means I have freedom of choice, but because someone else may already know the choice I will make, its not really a choice at all.

Clear as mud :)

[lazserus]

Well, people can assume what choice you would make in any given situation based off of knowing your character. That's a different story. We're talking about clear cut knowing exactly what you'll do next.

[DontBeAfraid]

Wow laz... You did it... You explained to somebody that if the future can be KNOWN by any device/mechanism then there is no such thing as freewill or chance..... Ima start taking notes on how you communicate. HBday

[t33]

What is the discerning difference?...good and evil are just that...one exists in our minds, one in our heart...God understood this...though they have biological functions requiring each, they prompt questions like this...in the minds of men, answers will be obvious...but when you feel that spike of sensation running UP your spine, it should be obvious from which of the two it originates...having a choice and the right to choose comes from one...having a feeling, comes from the other...there lies the paradox...apply everything you think you know and you can only come up with a logical answer...apply everything you feel and there is only one outcome...we are not born evil, we accept evil...we are not born faithful, we accept faith...in the end, we will all KNOW for sure which is right and which is wrong and which is weak and which is strong...there will be an end...find your line and make your stand...it is your choice, just as planned...

Message in the Wind
Listen to the wind blow soft thru the trees,
Focus directly beyond all that you see.
Hear the sounds that carry a sign,
Listen in the wind and you will hear me.

So much there is for you to know,
To all the words will come together.
Where there is no thunder low in the sky,
Just the subtle words that speak forever.

Listen to the wind blow so soft thru the trees,
There has come the time to hear it too.
In your heart it will swirl within,
The wind has come to you.


tChronister©2004

[Sirthinks2much]

My question is...if one enjoys pain can u go to hell and suffer? wouldnt that be like heaven ,doing what u enjoy or having horrible things done to you?

[DarkAce]

Just to add in my two cents, the bible should never be used in a literal sense, either to prove or disprove. Second it's all up to one's own interpretation. Understanding that some things are lost in translation, had different meanings when used than, have been edited, understanding the author's bias and the way things should of been etc, etc. goes a long way also.
For example this good and evil that you keep speaking of. This wasn't initially a big part of christianity until I believe some 500 years after Jesus died. This manichaeism thinking was pleasing to the people and incorporated into christian philosophy.
I still don't know why some of you interpret that everything is good, or evil. I'd think it'd be far better to say that everything contains the power to create or the power to destroy. It makes far better sense.

[mickydoolittle]

I still don't know why some of you interpret that everything is good, or evil. I'd think it'd be far better to say that everything contains the power to create or the power to destroy. It makes far better sense.

You write potatoe, they write potato....