Contradictions in the Bible [Archive] - Armageddon Online Forums

armageddononline

May 24th, 2003, 12:18 PM

This is mainly to Alan, as he challenged me to find God contradicting himself:

Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27

If bretheren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife. - Deuteronomy 25:5 If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing...they shall be childless. - Leviticus 20:21

God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent. - Numbers 23:19 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. - Exodus 32:14

Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17

And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart - Genesis 6:6

God contradicts himself therefore God's first decision was imperfect (as a perfect decision would never need changing) therefore God is imperfect (a perfect God could only make perfect decisions). Therefore God is imperfect, QED.

Ok maybe he's flexible and can change his mind a bit but all these complete contradictions?

Alan

May 24th, 2003, 3:04 PM

Your Quote:Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27

You think that because God told us not to kill each other you think that we are robots that cant kill each other and you think God is a robot who cannot change his thoughts according to a situation, but because some nations accepted the Word of God back then, and others not, God could have commanded us to kill each other, because if we didnt kill each other (which most of us probably tried not to do) why would we ever kill each other, but imagine our own brothers turning against us and attacking us, what are Gods ppl to do? Not kill anyone and just die? To leave God alone? No, he told us to defend ourselves in that case.

Your Quote:If bretheren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife. - Deuteronomy 25:5 If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing...they shall be childless. - Leviticus 20:21

You dont understand, if a family lives together, and one of the brothers die in a house and the one that died and his wife had no child then the brother is to marry his DEAD brothers husband. In the next case it says not to marry his own brothers wife, but thats because he is not dead, or they have children.

Your Quote:God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent. - Numbers 23:19 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. - Exodus 32:14

In this case, God feels sorrow or is angry at what Aaron does with the absence of Moses, Moses is on the mount. Moses asks God, pleads with God with the promises He made to Isaac, Abraham and Israel, His servants, and lessens Gods wrath, it may be that God was testing Moses to see that Moses not get mad and blastphamy agaisnt God and Moses remembered the promises instead, and in Moses' mind God did not do the evil Moses thought He was going to do, but since God is perfect He knows the beginning and end of all situations anyway. So it left Moses to think God changed His mind, when He probably just felt sorrow at the thoughts He was going to do, there is no way to know for sure.

Your Quote:Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17

Jesus would never be in danger of hellfire because He was the Son of God. You cant compare Jesus to be just a random guy to call someone else a fool for no good reason.

And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart - Genesis 6:6

Repented : can mean to feel great sorrow, look it up in websters dictionary. God felt sad at what man was doing, he felt a sorrow deep in his heart (this sadden me deeply(Alan) to have you think God can accually not feel bad, when you know he can feel great love for us and be joyous at the good things we do, we must have been very evil indeed for Him to feel such a way for us, even though I know he loves us very much).

Your quote: God contradicts himself therefore God's first decision was imperfect (as a perfect decision would never need changing) therefore God is imperfect (a perfect God could only make perfect decisions). Therefore God is imperfect, QED.

No he does not, and God is perfect. We are the most perfect thing He has created...even though we sadden him sometimes, but thats because He gave us free will, gave us the choice to follow Him willingly, or to burn in the chasm of hell. He has only made perfect decisions for us, imagine if God told us to kill, instead of not to, then how would we be having this conversation with a constant warring ppl for all time, and how would we ever accomplish anything, what if he told us not to kill, which he has, and we NEVER did, where would the Jews be now with all that has happened to them over time, you think its just coincidental that they are the only ppl on the planet that so many other nations have hated and tried to kill for the past 4000 years, and yet, even being so outnumbered as they have been HOW WITHOUT GOD PROTECTING THEM would they have survived? Let alone after 2000 years as it was predicted have thier own land again, and yes, the end is comming soon because so many Jews are going back to their homeland after centuries without one, just as was predicted by the Holy, Holy, God Almighty.

Thanks,

Alan

DontBeAfraid

May 24th, 2003, 10:22 PM

Wow alan, that is the most twisted interpretation of the bible ive seen in a while.

the first contridiction:
God says do not kill exodus 20:13
God says kill exodus 32:27
no way thats not a complete contridiction

contridiction 2:

If you brothers wife dies you marry her deuteronomy 25:5
If you marry your brothers wife it is unclean and you will not have children Lev 20:21
Ok not as bad as the first one but it still seems odd that a perfect god would send mixed signals

contridiction 3: i wont pretend i can follow the logic of this one.

contridiction 4:

god says dont say fool or burn in hell
jesus(the man-god who you say is perfect) says fool and doesnt burn in hell.
i guess god doesnt have to follow his own rules.

contridiction 5:
god is happy with humans
god is very very sad/mad with humans
A perfect god would make himself feel bad on purpose? maybe a sadistic freak god who likes to feel and share pain. So whats your definition of a perfect god anyways?

We are a constant warring ppl for all time. why would god have to predict anything? doesnt he KNOW everything? and if god KNOWS everything then there is no free will at all. If god knows everything then this is more like watching a movie then living a life. If god knows everthing and has the power to change everything then god is, deep down inside, pretty evil. So you worship an evil god who creates ppl then makes them not beleive in him so that he can burn them in hell. and about jesus, he was the incarnation of god sent to save us from hell, so god sent himself to save us from himself? god sure is a drama queen.

I cant beleive that any sane and reasonably intelligent person would choose to beleive in a fairy tale book over what they can see and test in real life. Its not like science was created to knock on the bible, if observation of the universe supported whats written in the bible then science would agree with the bible. Since science doesnt find anything in the universe to match anything in the bible it cant, its not that science hates the bible, the bible just hates science.

armageddononline

May 25th, 2003, 3:28 AM

Let's get this straight.

1) We can kill people if we have God's express permission but if we don't then it's a sin and we go to hell? The 10 Commandments were only general guidelines and are open to interpretation?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>No, he told us to defend ourselves in that case. [/quote]
Sorry but weren't the Israelites invading???

2) <blockquote>Quote:<hr>the brother is to marry his DEAD brothers husband[/quote]
sounds like its more than just me who's confused.

3) Uh can you explain that one again? Did God try to make Moses think he repented?

4) <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Jesus would never be in danger of hellfire because He was the Son of God.[/quote]
I thought the whole point of Jesus was to lead by example, not say one set of rules applied to Him and another set to everyone esle.

5) I thought God knew the outcome of everything therefore he knew in advance that we'd be evil.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>HOW WITHOUT GOD PROTECTING THEM would they have survived?[/quote]
Well if you look at the persecution the jews have suffered in their history you wonder why God would want to cause so much pain and death to the people he loved. Was the Holocaust all part of God's plan, some sort of sick test?

Personally I do believe in God butt he Bible should not be taken literally at all.

Alan

May 25th, 2003, 9:34 AM

I only try to show interpretation, as you guys are questioning I will try and give answers...

1) the ten comandments can be broken because in the new testement Jesus died for our sins, and so if we believe in Him our sins are forgiven. Now I know that Moses wrote this stuff down before Jesus came, but if God said dont kill, and you kill you may not go to heaven if you repent to God and ask for forgiveness, Im not completely sure. But if God then said to kill something, even to attack, and because they were Gods ppl, well if I was them I would obey and not ask a question if it came from Him.

2. I will try to explain again. Lets say I live with my brother, and I have a wife, and then I die, it is the responcibility of my brother to marry my wife and not let her go marry someone new who she doesnt know. The Bible also says not to marry my brothers wife, if I do while they are still married, well I am in trouble, but if my brother dies its right.

3. It was just my opinion, I was trying to anwser it in a number of ways, God felt sad in his heart when all of mankind except Noah and his family thought evil. I know God knows everything, we are taught that, so to explain the ways of God is a very hard thing to interpret, His ways are not like our ways, and His thoughts are not like ours.

4. Jesus was to lead by example, but He who died for us to go to heaven and not hell, well since this is the only proof you have of Jesus making a contradiction it could be for a number of reasons, 1. Jesus can do what ever he wanted, he was tempted by the devil and won that easily, 2. The new testemant was written by a number of prophets being disciples and others, some may have writen this down because they thought thats what they heard,

Im not entirely sure as I guess no one is, so I guess Ill say I dont know why he said this.

5.The persucution of the Jews was/is very bad, but if you read Kings, and Cronicles, well, youll find how evil they were and how they made God sad, and yes He does know the outcome of everything, and He made us to have the choice to follow him or not, so to explain God is a very hard thing to do indeed.

As for DBA, well God is not a sadistic freak, man your gonna be in trouble for that, or maybe its not taking the Lords name in vein because you dont believe in Him, but when He asks why you did not follow and you say, well I didnt know? That was your choice not to follow.... I dont know why God punishes us for so long, and I cannot explain why he lets things go on for time is a very sad time all around the world.

It will be happiness soon, there isnt much more to happen before all the Prohpesis made by Him are fulfilled, at least thats my belied and we are all entitled to believe what we want.

Thanks,

Alan

crazy_eng_44@hotmail.com

DontBeAfraid

May 25th, 2003, 10:20 AM

Im certain there are more proofs of jesus contridicting god errr himself or was it god, who knows.

bible god doesnt punish ppl for a "long" time he punishes them forever. Think about this, 6 million jews were killed in the holocaust and according to you these jews didnt escape torture through death but only entered a much worse torture with zero chance of ever being freed from this torture. i bet after 50 years of hell they would love to go back to the camps. Thats christian evil, thats bible gods evil.

If a parent told his kid that he had until the age of six to love him or he would cook him in an oven you would say that parent was evil wouldnt you? Are we not all gods children according to you? In your own opinion we can not possibly comprehend the mind of god- we understand your gods mind much less in fact than a toddler camprehends its parents. so please explain to me how you can have an all loving god that that would punish someone for eternaty with no hope of redemption for making a mistake that this supposedly all loving god has within its power to stop said person from making? Unless you agree that god is imperfect and is in fact not all pwerful at all then this god could save everyone couldnt it? You tell a child not to play in the street cause it might get hit by a car, now if this child goes and plays in the street and you get in your car and run it over how are you not evil?

Please in your next post convince me that you dont worship an evil sadistic god.

thank you,

DBA

Alan

May 25th, 2003, 7:20 PM

Well DBA, good point, too bad we cant judge ourselves let alone even think of judgin Him, I dont know why he let it happen, all I know is a lot more evil died than Gods ppl.

Im sure God thinks they had ample time to read Daniel tell about when the Saviour shall come, which means if they did and understand the reading, they would know by around the early first century AD Christ would have already come, it was a terrible thing, but as for them all burning in hell I dont know? Remember they did do a lot of bad things before even though they were God's ppl he still let this happen to them yes, he is a lawful and perfect God, not evil and sadistic. To repeat, I'm not sure where they went when they died, I know all the children went to heaven but Im not sure about all the adults, accually maybe they all went to heaven under certain circumstances I dont know.

You see, if Hitler wasnt an evolutionist, beaten by his father, and had his mother die at a young age, well who knows, maybe he wouldnt be the crazy guy he was. It was his fault and the fault of his family that he turned out the way he did and killed so many ppl in the world. If he was a Christian he would have been much better.

In my humble opinion, it is not for us to know why He punishes some and not others, but I do know that He gives us the choice to follow Him, and go to heaven, or to not and burn in hell, in the old testement, hell was just a place away from God, like a big rift between the promised land and hell was on the desolate other side, Im not sure how it has changed much in the NT, other than knowing about the hell fire and stuff.

Thanks,

Alan
PS: had to do this quick, dont mind mistakes

DontBeAfraid

May 25th, 2003, 10:59 PM

By your same logic it is not your place to judge god as good.

About Hitler, he was a devout chritian, In his book he described his anihilation of the jews as "Gods work" Please dont pretend that he wasnt just cause he was evil.

If god is omnipotent and know everything then we really have no choice as to whether we follow it or not do we. If god knows that a person is going to abandon him and has the power to change this person and chooses not to and as a result of this non action that could easily be taken by an omni creature to save said person from a hell that this omni creature created so it could put its other creations in if they didnt act the way it wanted them to even though it controls how they act, well thats just evil or at least very very childish. How are you going to tell me that this creature is perfect, i mean your just a human and in no position to judge it right?

DontBeAfraid

May 26th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Oh and dont insult my intelligence, evolutionist is a term made up by creationists to try and bring level the playing field between creationists and scientists. Maybe it was an accident but you indirectly called evolution a religion again, DONT.

Dont pretend that christians are the nicest ppl in the world, you know what makes up 99 percent of the prison population? Christians. while athiests make up about ten persent of the overall population they make up less than 1 percent of the criminals. Had you studied hitler you might know that much of his anger was because of his expirences in the military. Is a preist molesting a little boy not abuse? Seems to me like the church is trying to raise little hitlers according to you.

Alan

May 26th, 2003, 4:38 PM

The prison population? Well considering the only way for a person to be saved after he has done somehting terrible is to follow God, so after they get there thats probably what they will turn out to be.

Anyway, about Hitler being a devout Christian who was molested, well the molestation is something done by the sick ppl in the world, they are not Christians, tho they use their clothing and Bible to protect themselves untill they are cought. Dont worry all those that have molested and changed the ways of children will be sent to hell. Jesus said if anyone changes a little ones belief in me it was better for him to have a stone tied around his neck and he was thrown in the sea, they will get what is comming to them. As for him being a devout Christian, its the first Ive heard of this.

Thanks,

Alan

DontBeAfraid

May 26th, 2003, 7:40 PM

Alan it may be the only a christian thinks he can be saved but it is certainly not the only way out of prison. I was just giving you a new idea about the morality of atheists to think about. You really think that most of the jews who died were evil, you really think that Most of the non christian population is evil? Sorry Alan, christian molestors will be waiting in heaven when you get there, all it takes to get into heaven for your religion is belief that christ died for your sins ( even if your sins include molesting little boys). You know nothing about hitler yet you would try to use him to make your points? He wasnt molested he was just abused. Your church on the other hand would like to rewrite history to make all the bad people in it jews or atheirsts or buddists or whatever. The simple fact of the matter is that most of the evil ppl in recorded were christians. I want you to research the ppl on death row, dont say they were just pretending to be christians, lots of them think they had missions from god, a few years ago a lady drowned her five kids cause she beleived they were EVIL. She was a christian. Who are you to say they are going to hell, you are not your god, who are you to say these ppl are even bad, your not god so you cant tell the difference between good and evil. this is what you said. If i cant know something is bad then you cant know something is good.

Alan

May 26th, 2003, 8:08 PM

No, most jews who died wernt evil, tho we all sin, I dont know if they will go to heaven or hell, tho they did do a lot to Christ.

No, Christian molestors will not (I hope) be waiting in heaven, Jesus said those who destroy the faith of the children shall suffer a lot.

Yes Yes, hitler was abused, I didnt mean to use the term molested, if you read above I already said abused, my mind was trailing as I was about to talk about the molestors of the world.

No my church doesnt want to re write history.

Most evil ppl in history were Christians, yah, ok thats a good one, I guess all other evil ppl dont count as ppl. Its the ones that werent that changed everything, back in the 50s what kind of problems everyone have, just look at the 60s when they had all the religion gone from public schools that helped a lot. Look back on the 90s, look at all the fun kids have in school today, killing, raping, torturing. Yah Christians make up most of the worlds evil, they arnt Christians, if they claim to be then they Lie, to ask for forgiveness but to not practice it is to empty to Christ, and to turn your back on him. Its like blastphemy against God.

Research the ppl on death row, most of em are crazy, or did something because they were sick, or pissed off for a moment. They didnt claim God wanted them to do this, I know some do but they are crazy, but who knows maybe God did tell them to kill some ppl, tho I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH.

i am no one to say they go to hell, I cannot judge, judge not lest ye be judged, but please? see hitler in heaven, no, theres no way.

Thanks,

Alan

DontBeAfraid

May 27th, 2003, 12:20 AM

sorry dude, hitler believed in christ, thats all it takes, he is in heaven. The jews killed during the holocaust didnt do a thing to christ- holocaust fifty years ago, christ 2000 years ago.

You cant say that just because someone is evil that they dont believe in christ, but i knew you would fall back on the ' well, they werent TRUE christians'

Sorry, what i should have said is that religion is resposible for most of the worlds evil.

armageddononline

May 27th, 2003, 3:34 AM

After answering Dorkboy's good points, perhaps you'd tell us what it is that means you go to heaven or be a "true christian". Clearly not believing in Christ. You said that the people on death row who thought they were on a mission from God wouldn't go to heaven, so doing what you believe is God's will won't get you there.

not Alan

May 27th, 2003, 8:34 AM

27Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Alan

May 27th, 2003, 6:39 PM

Mike, if they were on a true mission from God I guess they would get there.

Dba, Hitler was not a christian, he didnt belive in Christ, he may of thought he existed, but to be forgiven by him you must ask for forgiveness and mean it, Hitler was not that kind of person. He was evil to the core. Your saying that Hitler going to heaven? Who am I to say yes or no, but after what he did instead of trying to plead his case he just killed his kids and his parents.

Dont make fun at Jesus Christ in such a way, if he said he did belive in Him then he was lying so he could kill more of the world.

To remind you the things above in the previous chattings were my opinions only, not Gods, and I cannot provide you with proof at the momment for scripture, but some ppl just say, ask Jesus to forgive you thats all, if that were true A LOT would go to heaven. But as an analogy Christ said something like when a marriage was going on and the would be husbadna dn wife called many to their marraige, and none showed, then someone went and got a bunch of ppl from the street, just random folks to come to the wedding, a lot came but few were for the real occasion, many were just dressed in poor clothing not fit for the wedding. I didnt want to quote the story from the Bible, but its in the Gospel according to St. Matthew somwhere near the later half.

What I picked out of it was that many will try to come, but few will be clean enough to go into heaven, as Christ said we need to come to Him as little children, and humble ourselves to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Dont play word games with Hitler, if he said he was Christian he wasnt, he was an evolutionist, who tried to get the master race (the ones who least looked like monkies) to take over the world. Thats not at all what Christ thought. Many a fool in the world will call themselves Christians, while not practicing anything to prove it. Dont say I may face the fires of hell for saying fool either.

Thanks,

Alan

crazy_eng_44@hotmail.com

Misearably,

Alan

DontBeAfraid

May 27th, 2003, 7:03 PM

What word games, hitler accepted jesus in his heart and mind. He thought he was doing what god wanted, read his autobiography. I have never seen a blonde hair blue eyed monkey. Are you saying it takes more than just accepting jesus' sacrifive to get into heaven? If jesus died for our sins why does that exclude hitlers sins? If what hitler was doing wasnt religious then y did he choose jews? Why do you think that the entire jewish community is evil? Hitler wasnt being childish? If hitler wasnt a part of gods divine plan then god is imperfect in that he cant even control his own divine plan. If you insist that everything is a part of the plan then hitler was divine.

Alan

May 27th, 2003, 7:28 PM

He was one of the antichrists, and his purpose to make the PERFECT race was from his thoughts on evolution, if he didnt believe in evolution and accual read the Bible he would have tried to be like Jesus, I guess it takes more than just accepting his sacrifice, I dunno, he was no Christian, he ddint practice anyhting Jesus taught.

Everything is part of the plan, why was hitler divine? I dont see how he was, am I divinve because I drove to the store today and wasnt killed? Just because God knows of me he wouldnt let me die today and so Im divine and part of His plan? Make hitler kill Gods own ppl the,jews, thats the devil, same as evolution, the devil, teaches ppl we're a product of chance and that there is no true force of good and evil in the world controlling everything and that we arnt a creation. I dont know how the devil is wining these days? Its the end times? I think it is, just check out these earthquakes, one of the signs of the times, (again dont say Im judging, its not my job but Im stating my personal opinion of him, cmon you dont think Jesus would let him in heaven do you?)

www.iris.edu/seismon/last30days.phtml (http://www.iris.edu/seismon/last30days.phtml)

seems like alot, over 350 in 30 days? Is that normal? Who knows...

Thanks,

Alan

sky

May 27th, 2003, 9:03 PM

Exodus 20:13. Thou shalt not kill.

The word translated as kill in the 10 comandments is ratsach = meaning to murder, to lay trap for innocent blood.

The word used in Exodus 22:1 which says,

Exodus 22
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
is the word ...taw-bakh'= meaning to slaughter.

Exodus 32:27

27. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

haw-rag' = to smite with deadly intent, such as in battle.

I see no contradiction at all in these verses.

I was just checking out the site and couldn't help myself. :D The rest of the examples are pretty easy to figure out also. No contradictions at all.
sky

DontBeAfraid

May 27th, 2003, 10:48 PM

If choosing to learn of my surroundings is the work of the devil then it must not be as bad a thing as you say. Funny how science gets it all right when making your watch or computer or airbag for your car, Funny how science gets it all right when you want to watch cable or need a kidney transplant to live, funny how science gets everything right but while using the same exact scientific method used for the development laser eye surgury it gets it wrong with evolution. If science is the work of the devil then the devil is doing more for us than god.

Chew on that,

DBA

Alan

May 28th, 2003, 6:42 PM

I didnt say science was evil, I said evolution is the devil, lol, and I find it funny, but I dont like the devil, or evolution, I think things like birds being the same species first and seperated for many generations and live on seperate islands develope slightly different adaptation, I call that variation and adaptation, not evolution, I call evolution the devil because there is no way a dog can turn into a cat, or a large 100 ton brotosaurys into a sparrow, let alone a single cell protozoa turn into a length of grass let alone us. Thats why I call it the devil, and call it evil, to me its just pure craziness...

OOok,

Alan

armageddononline

May 29th, 2003, 2:31 AM

To sum up your arguments, animal can adapt to their environments but not enough to form new species. Correct?

OK then explain the Galapogas islands. In case you don't know, they're a group of islands thousands of miles from the mainland where different species of animals have evolved to anywhere else.

Alan

Jun 5th, 2003, 7:37 PM

Youve pretty much sumed it up yah. But I guess if a species is something that interbreeds naturally in nature, then I guess the finches or what ever species in the Galapagos(I dunno the correct spelling) over time due to geographical isolation and many years have all developed certain traits, and some can no longer breed together, at least I hear they cant. That would lead one to belive that birds after a time can change and after many generations small adaptations accumulate that make them different from the original population. Ok, sounds good, but whats to say a bird over millions of years can after soooo many generations change into anything else, that the theory part, and it cannot be proven. Thats the part that I dont belive in. I know God did create the earth, and he made animals like putty I guess, they can bend a little and are not like concrete, but change and adapt so that they can survive as the environment changes.

Alan

armageddononline

Jun 6th, 2003, 3:18 AM

I just don't get this.

You agree that animals can change slightly, and even that they can change into related species given time and yet you can't see that given sufficient time and the right environment any change is possible. Just take a look at how diverse and different to anything else some of the Galapagos species are.

DontBeAfraid

Jun 6th, 2003, 5:55 AM

Alan, you just admitted that evolution occurs. I dont understand why you would say something like 1+1=2 and 1+1+1=3 but 1+1+.....................+1+1 cant be proven to equal whatever it would.

Alan

Jun 6th, 2003, 9:42 PM

What do you mean diverse and different, just because a bird looks a lot like anothe bird, so what, they didnt come from a 80 ton dinosaur millions of years before. Humans wernt monkies millions of years ago, we dont evolve into different species like that. We are all a bit like putty in that we can change a certain amount to suit the environment, thats how God made us. He didnt abandon the universe to evolve into things like planets, how many planets have ever been seen forming, let alone anything comming from nothing. Man what a bunch of lies, how can you belive it. Check a site I found tonight out.
www.creationscience.com/o...FAQ13.html (http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ13.html)

armageddononline

Jun 7th, 2003, 3:40 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We are all a bit like putty in that we can change a certain amount to suit the environment[/quote] I think we think the same thing. The only difference is you impose an arbitrary limit on how much animal can adapt.

Alan

Jun 7th, 2003, 9:44 PM

I do pose a limit, because there is a God and I know he has not forgot us, I know that he created Man as he is (the species of humans) and not an omeba (or however you spell it) that changed into a fish then a reptile, then a mamal somehow from somewhere into monkies into us over millions of years. Come on man, it is absurd to think that way, well I guess you think chance after God abandoned us and millions of years while I think God and am not sure completely of the timeline, and Jesus dying for our sins. I dont think it is right to think we are the product of chance. But hey, ever think that what if there is a God waiting when we die, if you EVER have, what is the fault in hoping so, what if it does come true and He asks you why you didnt believe. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain in believing in God.

Alan

DontBeAfraid

Jun 8th, 2003, 10:10 PM

Alan he could lose the use of his brain, much as you have. You cant trick yourself into truely beleiving in something alan, and if your omniscient god is waiting at death why would it ask anyhting? shouldnt it know?

Mike if i understand you correctly you beleive god set the universe up at the start and is now ,more or less, entertaining itself? marveling at the chance that life was produced out of a random combination of the materials and laws by which these materials exist? Thats not crazy, that god could possibly be real, so could a god that left. the god of the bible, simply cant.

Dontbeangry

Jun 9th, 2003, 7:58 AM

Isaiah 28
12&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp You may cause the weary to rest,”
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp And, “This is the refreshing”;
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Yet they would not hear.
13&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp But the word of the LORD was to them,
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Line upon line, line upon line,
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Here a little, there a little,”
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp And snared and caught.0] 0]
0]

armageddononline

Jun 9th, 2003, 1:01 PM

Alan please see a new topic I've made about reasons for believing in God.

Back on topic, you say you impose limits but not why other than to say its absurd, which I agree it may appear. However, if you get your head around how long the Earth has existed then the variation we see today seems far from impossible. Compared to the age of the earth a few million years is nothing. The 6000 years of recorded human history a millionth of the time. Is it surprising we have only seen 'micro-ecolution' in such a minute timeframe.

SP50

Jun 27th, 2003, 9:00 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Contradictions in the Bible[/quote] Where are they? The bible is revelation. "For my thought are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher tan your ways, and thought than your thoughts. Is 55:8-9
The Bible is a loched book to a locked heart. " Many shall be purified and made white and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. ( Dan 12:10)
"But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". I Cor 2:14
Certainly there are mysteries presented in God's Word!
" As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. to him be glory both now and forever. Amen" IIPeter 3:16-18
Know Him and you will know His book!

armageddononline

Jun 28th, 2003, 4:04 PM

Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27

Whether or not it's a mistranslation, that is a blatant contradiction.

SP50

Jun 28th, 2003, 8:02 PM

So, are you saying that soldiers that go to war and end up killing, serving their nation, are sinning, because of "thou shalt not kill"?

armageddononline

Jun 29th, 2003, 5:56 AM

I don't think they are, but the Bible clearly does. It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill, except when your president tells you to".

Alan

Jun 29th, 2003, 7:38 AM

Look at it this way Mike,

If ALL of us followed the laws that God set in the Bible, I mean the original 10, would the world really be bad?

And we would be fine.

God told his people to 'hew everyman his brother' or something like that, why? Thou shalt not kill right? Well what about His other people that didnt believe that and were on Gods land and shouldn't have been, were killing God's people. What was God to do, He could have made all the evil disappear right? Thats a thought I think you enjoy letting pass through your head, God can do anything, but you judge Him because of the path He takes the world? God gave His people, not man as a whole, the right that day, or that week, which ever it was to go and kill someone else, for the exact perpose, I don't know, maybe it was because the people agaisnt God were many so they ruled, or punished the people that did believe in God. Like today, I am rediculed for believing in something, while I wonder to myself, if not to believe in God, what else is there to believe in, what hope do we have with a world that looks as though its getting worse on a scale not known before. Maybe they are end-times, maybe they're not, Im just one to ramble and ponder.

This is a very crude but plain example. In this day and age, if someone who has power, makes a rule and breaks it himself He is thrown out. Heaven IS NOT a democracy, though when we get there thats probably what it will seem like since we will never want the ruler changed. In a communist country, or one ruled by force and terror, if someone in power makes and then breaks a rule, so what? He's the one in charge, leave him alone or something bad will happen to you.

Now, now, don't go off with the ramble God is evil because He sends people to hell, you don't believe (this goes for dba as well) in Hell, or redemption from there then don't say God is evil, think of something a bit more original. Or apply Gods action to some of the more recent actions in the world as to why God is evil.

God is not evil, I wont even entertain your minds so you can make some rediculous argument, God saves, and His punishment, ever if it was, was for a purpose, not for Him laughin at His poor people on earth. I'm sure it saddens Him to see so many people lost, and on a track that will end in despair.

It is hard to understand His ways,

Alan

SP50

Jun 29th, 2003, 8:08 AM

AO, it is clearly stated that God's people will understand, but those that do not serve Him, will not.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't think they are, but the Bible clearly does. It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill, except when your president tells you to". [/quote]
This thinking is clearly a case of not knowing the Bible and only knowing a few scriptures. The entire bible works together. One must put it ALL together to understand.
His ways are higher than our ways.
If mankind chose to do things God's way from the beginning there would be no need for war, but man refused and continues to refuse to do it God's way, so everything in this world is out of order.
The difference between murder and killing in defense of oneself or country is a fine line, but there is a line just the same.
There are no contradictions in the Bible, taking it ALL and putting it together, covers everything we face in life in an orderly, organized, Godly way.
I am no theologian, I am a believer. I know by the quickening of my spirit ( by the Holy Spirit sent by the Lord to lead us and guide us in God's ways), by the Word of God, by the things He has spoken to me in a still small voice, by evidences in my life, that His Word is true, He is truth and I know without a doubt that if I do things God's way, I will have peace in this life and eternal life with the Father and Jesus in Heaven.

armageddononline

Jun 29th, 2003, 9:23 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If ALL of us followed the laws that God set in the Bible, I mean the original 10, would the world really be bad? [/quote] No it'd be great. But the laws were given to the Jews to set an example to the rest of the world about how to live. Its not example that has been followed.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Well what about His other people that didnt believe that and were on Gods land and shouldn't have been, were killing God's people.[/quote] Well they did have a rather better claim to the land than the Jews. They'd lived there for thousands of years before. I don't think you can blame them for defending their homes from invading foreigners. I certainly don't think they should have been killed for it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The difference between murder and killing in defense of oneself or country is a fine line, but there is a line just the same. [/quote] As I said, the other guys were defending their country from the Israelite invaders.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>This thinking is clearly a case of not knowing the Bible and only knowing a few scriptures. The entire bible works together. One must put it ALL together to understand.[/quote] You're going to have to explain to me what it says in the rest of the Bible that means it isn't a contradiction.

SP50

Jul 2nd, 2003, 3:44 PM

I suppose you realize the length of the Holy Bible.....it is a personal thing to do the searching......I can not do that work for you.
I would be happy to try and answer question, but only on a scripture or 2 at a time.

armageddononline

Jul 4th, 2003, 12:40 PM

And about the Isrealite invasions?

SP50

Jul 4th, 2003, 11:14 PM

Which ones would you be referring to?

armageddononline

Jul 5th, 2003, 2:53 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>God told his people to 'hew everyman his brother' or something like that, why? Thou shalt not kill right? Well what about His other people that didnt believe that and were on Gods land and shouldn't have been, were killing God's people.[/quote] When the Isrealites reached the promised land God ordered them to invade, and then slaughter every man in the land. They had lived there for hundreds or thousands of years and were killed for wanting to defend their homeland. How can this be right?

SP50

Jul 5th, 2003, 2:30 PM

A fact that may seem cruel to the human logic is that any who defy the Lord their God and deny Him, face destruction
I did not say it, I am not the creator, HE is.....one to be totally respected and revered, for the circumstances of unbelief are tremendous. Our lives on this earth is but a breath, it is our eternal lives that many should be concerned about and turn from their wicked ways ( unbelief)....because if they do the rewards are great and wonderful.......eternity in paradise.....no more pain, no more tears, just total perfection.
ALL GOd has ever asked His creation ( mankind) to do is acknowledge Him as God and when He sent Jesus, to acknowledge Jesus as HIS Son and many a man, thinking himself so smart has refused his own creator, and there are consequences for that.

armageddononline

Jul 5th, 2003, 3:32 PM

And what's that got to do with divinely sponsored ethnic cleansing? All they did was to stand up and defend their homes and they were massacred for it.

If that doesn't seem cruel to your God then I will not worship your God.

SP50

Jul 5th, 2003, 6:33 PM

ethicity has nothing to do with.....worshipping idols ( for one thing) has everything to do with it.
Your responses are short and seem to ignore what I write....how can I try to help you understand anything.
My God is your God!!!!! He is the God of all creation.

armageddononline

Jul 6th, 2003, 6:09 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Your responses are short and seem to ignore what I write[/quote] Tha was becasue I couldn't see a connection between your reply and my question (I did read it though). I was just repeating the question.

As for worshipping false idols, that has nothing to do with it. Only one tribe on Earth at the time was worshipping the "corect" things but why did God decide to pick on just a couple of the others?

And how were the Phillistines etc meant to know that they were worshipping the wrong things?Look at it from their point of view, all they did was defend themselves from an invading army.

SP50

Jul 6th, 2003, 9:46 AM

Worshipping idols has everything to do with it.....read the 10 commandments. In Deut. God says keep my commandments and I will bless your comings and goings, I will bless whatever you put your hands too, etc....BUT if you do not keep my commandments I will curse your comings and goings and all that you put your hands too.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law ( commandments) but to fullfull it. What God said in the beginning still goes today.
Because of what Jesus did, we are no longer under the law but under grace, yet the 10 commandments still stand in our lives in obedience to God.....for He is still the same today as yesterday and we, out of our love toward Him, have a heart to please God and walk the way He intended us to walk.
THere is so much that none of us understand.....for His ways are higher than our ways, but God is God, who is mere man ( His creation) to question His ways?
That is what got people like the Phillistines in trouble with God, they questioned this God of Israel and refused to follow Him, so they made up their own gods and worshipped idols instead of God almighty, so they did not have the hand of God on them to protect them. If all mankind believed God and followed Him, they would have lived together in harmony. It was MAN that chose to turn there backs on God.
We were all born with a knowledge of God, but some have refused the true God and have replaced Him with little gods of their own......they inherently knew there is a higher power, but many have looked for that higher power in places other than God almighty. How God choses to deal with this is not up to you or me.....it is only up to God almighty.
I do not know everything, never pretended to, all I know is that it is God almighty that I serve and come the judgement day of the believers ( there will also be a judgement of unbelievers) that I hope and pray that my Father will say " well done". I know I fall short of His glory and strive for that mark so that He would be able to say "well done".

armageddononline

Jul 6th, 2003, 3:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Worshipping idols has everything to do with it.....read the 10 commandments.[/quote] I don't remember the Ten Commandments being delivered to the Phillistines...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>That is what got people like the Phillistines in trouble with God, they questioned this God of Israel and refused to follow Him, so they made up their own gods and worshipped idols instead of God almighty, so they did not have the hand of God on them to protect them.[/quote] And I'm sure there's as much evidence for their specific God as their is for the Isrealite one.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If all mankind believed God and followed Him, they would have lived together in harmony. [/quote] Oh yes, like in Northern Ireland. The Protestants and Catholics both believe in your God but the harmony we get is them blowing each other to pieces.

SP50

Jul 7th, 2003, 9:04 AM

ALL mankind in the OT was given the chance to follow God for we all come from the same place and truth be known, we are all from one set of parents.......Adam and Eve.
God gave the 10 commandments to those that called upon His name......all knew of HIM, not all acknowledged Him as their God, just like today.
ANd no, their is not as much evidence for their god as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob......the only evidence may be the remains of false gods, hewn out of wood or stone, but no evidence of miracles, etc.
What is going on in Ireland makes me so sad, but it is not a Godly thing, it is purely political.

armageddononline

Jul 7th, 2003, 11:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>ANd no, their is not as much evidence for their god as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob......the only evidence may be the remains of false gods, hewn out of wood or stone, but no evidence of miracles, etc.[/quote] So you wouldn't believe in God without evidence of miracles?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>God gave the 10 commandments to those that called upon His name[/quote] Odd. I seem to remember most of the Israelites worshipping a cow or something the moment Moses left them to get the commandments, so they were hardly a shining example of faith. And yet despite this, God had the Phillistines, amongst others, slaughtered to make way.

SP50

Jul 7th, 2003, 12:03 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Odd. I seem to remember most of the Israelites worshipping a cow or something the moment Moses left them to get the commandments, so they were hardly a shining example of faith. And yet despite this, God had the Phillistines, amongst others, slaughtered to make way. [/quote]
oh, yes the ones that wandered in the wilderness ( why do you think they wandered so long?) needed instant gratification.....a problem with the fleshly man! and they greived Moses so bad that he broke the first tablets with the 10 commandments on them.........however, they knew who the God of Israel was and He was there God, in spite of their sin........we are all sinners, saved by grace.
I believe in God, does that mean I have never sinned......no....I am not perfect, but I am forgiven.

armageddononline

Jul 7th, 2003, 12:52 PM

If they thought God was their god what possible reason could they have for worshipping a golden calf? The same crime the Phillistines were killed for.

DontBeAfraid

Jul 7th, 2003, 3:53 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>all knew of HIM, not all acknowledged Him as their God, just like today.[/quote]

SP50, You are truly arrogant and misinformed if you think that there are no real atheists or agnostics or muslims. The very notion of what you suggest is insulting.

SP50

Jul 8th, 2003, 12:28 AM

I mean no insult and there really is no arrogance in me, I am sorry you take it that way. Just because someone is born with the knowledge of something, does not mean they follow it( or HIM).
Jesus is the way, the truth and the light!!!!!

DontBeAfraid

Jul 8th, 2003, 12:51 AM

So you truly do believe that everyone secretly KNOWS your god but is just unwilling to admit it because everyone wants to go to hell. Thats unrealistic, and nobody is born with any knowledge, again get real. It certainly IS arrogant. And it is insulting cause you are calling me and most LYERS. No wonder you cant look at things from any perspective but your primitive christian one, you think that EVERYBODY sees things your way but has some kind of hell wish. well I dont beleive in your god or your hell, and i wasnt born beleiving in it either.

Go ahead, type something stupid

DBA

armageddononline

Jul 8th, 2003, 1:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If they thought God was their god what possible reason could they have for worshipping a golden calf? The same crime the Phillistines were killed for. [/quote]

Alan

Jul 9th, 2003, 3:20 PM

In 6/25/03 you stated

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well what about His other people that didnt believe that and were on Gods land and shouldn't have been, were killing God's people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well they did have a rather better claim to the land than the Jews. They'd lived there for thousands of years before. I don't think you can blame them for defending their homes from invading foreigners. I certainly don't think they should have been killed for it.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference between murder and killing in defense of oneself or country is a fine line, but there is a line just the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said, the other guys were defending their country from the Israelite invaders

Now I was talking about the book of Genesis, and back then, not about the current evernts in the last couple hundred years.

Alan

Jul 9th, 2003, 3:30 PM

They didnt know? The isrealites worshiped false idols for a long time, look what happened to them for 2000 years, and to the egyptions with the plagues, heck some believe we are experiencing some of the vials of wrath now with all the disease but I cannot go into and answer that yet for a while, I need to read the Bible a lot more yet.

To not follow or to believe in God is to deny Him, and usually only bad things come of it.

AO's quote
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If they thought God was their god what possible reason could they have for worshipping a golden calf? The same crime the Phillistines were killed for[/quote]

Can you explain your reasoning in different words, Im having a hard time trying to figure out exacly what you are saying

Jazman

Jul 9th, 2003, 4:18 PM

Here's another contradiction

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- Genesis 32:30

No man hath seen God at any time.
- John 1:18

Genesis 32 is the chapter where God changes Jacob's name to Israel. In verse 29 Jacob asks God for his name. God replies by asking where it was that Jacob was asking from. Jacob replied the above verse.

John 1:18 is pretty self explanatory. He is describing Jesus and how he declared the Lord God. He makes it clear that No man has ever seen God. I guess John was not familiar with the Old Testament.

Proverbs c9v9

Jul 9th, 2003, 9:42 PM

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eeeshgeebor/Torahcontradictions.htm" target="top">Torah Contradictions Answered</a>.

DontBeAfraid

Jul 9th, 2003, 10:38 PM

I checked out that site. It was written by someone with a very poor understanding of science and logic. It doesnt solve any of the obvious contradictions in the bible but rather makes up new parts of the story to try make the contradictions fit together. According to that site the earth was around long before adam and eve.... This is a direct contradiction to what genesis was made up to explain. After the first huge logic fallacy the author of the site made about light or photons only being produced by stars i had a really hard time taking the rest seriously. In response to that, nobody is contending that the big bang didnt send out light and that the bang was not really a star, but the bible contends that light on earth was here before the stars were formed. It was not. Earth came a long time after the sun and life came a long time after the earth, at least here on earth.

Faith has nothing to do with logic.
The god most people is "outside of" or "beyond" this universe or existence and understanding. It is illogical to simply believe something that is described as unknowable, it is a waste of energy.

Proverbs c9v9

Jul 9th, 2003, 11:27 PM

No it isn't. Your problem is you don't see what the Hebrew says. You see what English which is a poor translate says. I don't blame you for thinking it is still contradictions.

armageddononline

Jul 10th, 2003, 12:12 PM

Well supposing it is just bad translations, it still means the only Bible I can read does not make sense. I mean if "thou shall not kill" uses a different definition of 'kill' to us, how is anyone who doens't speak Hebrew meant to realise that?

Alan

Jul 12th, 2003, 8:15 PM

Your Quote:

'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- Genesis 32:30

No man hath seen God at any time.
- John 1:18

Genesis 32 is the chapter where God changes Jacob's name to Israel. In verse 29 Jacob asks God for his name. God replies by asking where it was that Jacob was asking from. Jacob replied the above verse.

John 1:18 is pretty self explanatory. He is describing Jesus and how he declared the Lord God. He makes it clear that No man has ever seen God. I guess John was not familiar with the Old Testament.'

Well jazzman, the Lord does not really appear in person at any time in the Bible, except when John the Divine goes up in heaven and sees his chair, but I think I recall him only seeing light from his face, and so really didnt see him. But in the case of Jacob seeing God face to face it was night, and a man wrestleds with him until the break of day, I guess thats when the man left. So even thought they were face to face, it was dark. So techinically no man has seen God, and even if Jacob did see the man, it was probably an angel messanger, or God in the body of man, for no one did see God ( I dont recall anyway) unless you account John seeing the blinding light around the throne where God sat in heaven, and even then John sees that after Johns gospel because its in Revalations.

necromancer2643

Oct 7th, 2003, 12:32 AM

In response to...

"If bretheren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife. - Deuteronomy 25:5 If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing...they shall be childless. - Leviticus 20:21"

If you read the VERY next verse down, Leviticus 20:22,
It reads, " You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgment, and perform them, that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out." Okay, now that we have that for you to read let me expound just a little. God had laid down commands and guidelines for people to follow, just a we have today. Are you with me so far? Good. What God is saying there is that He has laid down rules. There were and are certain occassions when something is right and something is wrong. Here, when a man dies and he has a wife who has NOT had children yet, his brother, is responsible for providing the "seed." The firstborn child took the name of the woman's first husband to carry on the family name. Back then the name was EXTREMELY important.
Now the other verse provided here states that when a man 'takes' his brothers wife, it is unclean. This means, in their time, illegal. Again let's go back to to the commands, rules, laws, guidelines made by God. Now, you tell me, wich situation is clean and wich is unclean. (Excluding the moral and legal sides that are in play for our time.)

<>< Fish D.

dutchie

Oct 7th, 2003, 2:30 AM

Is this the same necromancer that was whining about his "born again christian" g-friend???????

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>In accordance to the scriptures, I believe it might be somewhere in Revelations, Your works are "shown for what they're worth" when you pass through the cleansing fire. That is only after you have been accepted into heaven. You are accepted into heaven by believing and having faith in Jesus. That he came to earth to share in our suffering and to die for us to take the eternal suffering away from us, again, only if we except this. We are told to "repent and be baptized" and to, " proclaim with our mouth that Jesus is Lord." This is not what saves us and gives us admittance to heaven, but we are told that, "If you are ashamed of Me, then so shall I be ashamed of you unto My Father." Jesus said that we need to proclaim our faith unto the world, even to anyone we meet.[/quote]

My oh my, we have a schizo on our hands..... :|