100,000 Dead Iraqi Civilians

[prezhorusin04]

Sunday, October 31, 2004
Terror & Democracy
http://beyondthemainstream.blogspot.com/2004/10/terror-democracy.html


A scientific study, published in The Lancet, has estimated that at least 100,000 Iraqis have been killed since the US-led invasion in March 2003. The majority of those who died were women and children killed in air strikes, helicopter gunship assaults and shelling of civilians in urban areas from US forces. The researchers believe their findings may actually be quite conservative given they felt compelled to exclude the surveys in Fallujah. If data from Fallujah is included, the study estimates 200,000 Iraqis killed. This is a rate of nearly one hundred to two hundred times that of American military deaths during the same period.

When 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 in the United States of America, it was called a barbaric act of terrorism. When 100,000 Iraqis are killed, it is called an act of liberation and “bringing democracy to Iraq.”

To get a handle of how devastating the carnage has been, we should extrapolate those numbers and apply them to the United States. The US has a population of approximately 290 million. Iraq’s population is around 24 million. The US population is more than 12 times that of Iraq.

Imagine visiting the kind of “liberation” and “democracy” the US is currently doing in Iraq and applying it to the United States of America. Imagine an invasion and occupation of the US that killed between 1.2 and 2.4 million Americans, most of them women and children, through precision air strikes, bombings, and large scale assaults on urban and suburban neighborhoods. Imagine routine house-to-house invasions where your fellow Americans were kidnapped and taken from their homes by the hundreds of thousands. Imagine those hundreds of thousands of Americans in Abu Ghraib gulags where they were tortured, raped, beaten, brutalized, and humiliated. Imagine hundreds of them being outright murdered in custody.

Here’s another way of looking at it. The 100,000 killed in Iraq relative to its population is the equivalent of perpetrating four hundred 9/11-style attacks on America. That comes out to five 9/11 attacks per week, every week, for 18 months. That’s 15,000 Americans being killed every week.

This is the sort of carnage endured by the Iraqi population. The Iraqi population has little tolerance for this level of terror and mass murder while under occupation. That is why they are engaged in legitimate resistance. Would Americans react any differently if they were forced to live under similar conditions?

[PunkRockMaL7]

Would Americans react any differently if they were forced to live under similar conditions?

Americans would go crazy if anything like that ever happened over here....mass chaos in the streets...these lazy corporate junkies running around with cell phones crying because they no nothing of refuge....bah....

I say that all americans should stop the complaining about the people dying over there and be thankful that its not happening over here....yet....Yes, it is a tragedy that all those people, those innocent (if you think they are innocent) people are dying...but if they are so willing to blow themselves up...why dont we just speed up the process and blow more of them up at one time....dont hate me for saying this but its about time for some ethnic cleansing to get these peoples minds straight over there....I would like to emphasize that i know not every one is evil over there and not every needs to die, but innocent must suffer with the rest to get a point across, just as our innocent did and still are. Not because we want to but because it has to be done...I think of it like this....say i was walking down the street with my mom and someone walked up and shot her....of course i will want my revenge, just as we wanted our revenge on iraq for all the pain and suffering they have caused so many families here.
they need to learn that dying and killing others is not the right way to fight a cause, especially whatever stoopid cause they are fighting for, somthing about us being more free than them and them being jealous...and we as americans need to lay that smack down on them...I realize that we are fighting fire with fire but as long as we are bigger better and free i suggest they take our help while we are willing to give it and stop being so dumb....
The end :52: i hope that makes some sense...not sure what i typed just wrote down some thoughts...

[DontBeAfraid]

just as we wanted our revenge on iraq for all the pain and suffering they have caused so many families here.
What suffering did Iraqi's cause american families?


they need to learn that dying and killing others is not the right way to fight a cause, especially whatever stoopid cause they are fighting for,

so how do you get to the quote below?


but if they are so willing to blow themselves up...why dont we just speed up the process and blow more of them up at one time....

Thats a much better cause than they have.....


if you think they are innocent
The children arent innocent?


dont hate me for saying this but its about time for some ethnic cleansing

hmm...... I dont like you.

[PunkRockMaL7]

First of all...the suffering that Iraqians have caused are families are all the terrorist attacks on american soil that they have taken part in....The fact that these people have been brainwashed by whom ever to believe that americans are the enemy when all we really want to do is help....They are to ignorant to see this though...

Probably my wording and thought process was off a little .... I'm all for the war in Iraq, i dont think its right that our soldiers are going in there and bulling the iraqians around....but once again they just dont really know any better...they dont know the difference between good and evil and even the children are brought up that way...so in a way the children are just as evil as their teachers. Because they to will grow up thinking and acting the same way their elders do...

Please dont hate me for my opinions....I'm a good person...just feel strongly about certain issues and i'm tired of hearing everyone whine about how the war in iraq is pointless, because it isnt...if we didnt go over there and set things straight...America would look like the biggest pussy's in the world and they would start beating up on us more. Be thankful its not you who dying and give the gov. their credit when its due for keeping us as safe as possible...

[MetalMilitia]

..the suffering that Iraqians have caused are families are all the terrorist attacks on american soil that they have taken part in....

Huh? Iraq didn't do 9/11 if that's what you are still thinking. There are rumors they were tied to the '93 WTC bombing, but that was an FBI sham... so no proof there.


Yes, it is a tragedy that all those people, those innocent (if you think they are innocent) people are dying...

Women and children are innocent no matter what their beliefs are. If they are NOT holding a gun, wearing a uniform, or out rioting in the streets, then they are innocent. Perioid. The high death rate is mainly due to violence, with many of the victims women and children, according to US public health experts.


...so in a way the children are just as evil as their teachers.

So the columbine teachers should probably be blamed? How about students abusing drugs, beating their girlfreinds, or the ones that go on to commit the 15,000 murders every year here in the US.

[Emerald_Dragon]

>First of all...
>the suffering that Iraqians have caused are families
>are all the terrorist attacks on american soil that they have taken part in....

they terrorized american soil? when? what news agency are you relying on?


>The fact that these people have been brainwashed by whom ever to believe
>that americans are the enemy when all we really want to do is help....
>They are to ignorant to see this though...

its more like, we want to help...ourselves to their oil...because they were selling
it to everyone else in the world but us. Why do you think France, Germany and Russia were against the war?


>i dont think its right that our soldiers are going in there
>and bulling the iraqians around....

our soldiers are defending their right to live. if you're placed in a hostile country,
i'm sure you'd do whatever it takes to live.


>if we didnt go over there and set things straight...

what did the Iraqis do, to deserve getting killed? did they harbor Al Quaeda?
Did they have WMDs? Were they involved with WTC 911? Why are our soldiers there?
Who is "brainwashed"?


>America would look like the biggest pussy's in the world...

what makes you think like that? what wrong was not "righted"?
911 was caused by US actions in Saudi Arabia, as revealed by the 911 commission.
OBL was the instigator, yet we went after SH and Iraq?
Who is ignorant here?

[PunkRockMaL7]

You win....i've been torn down enough.... :o(

[PunkRockMaL7]

Wait i do have one things to say though...when i said that the children are as evil as their teachers...i wasnt meaning school....i was meaning parental figures...and there are women and children with guns and women taking part in suicide bombings...

Trust me guys...i'm all about peace love and happiness....but i seriously doubt that a WAR would start for absolutely no reason...dont be so hateful towards those that make the decisions to keep us safe...

so go ahead...its my birthday and i'm new here...pick on my all you want...i can take it....just bring it ill throw something back atcha

[lotrfan55345]

dont hate me for saying this but its about time for some ethnic cleansing


I'm part middle-eastern i think maybe. I'm really offended!

[prezhorusin04]

PunkRockMal. Your ethnic cleansing statement is truly ignorant. i hate it when people don't give a shit about human life until it's dying in their backyard.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Civilian death toll in Iraq exceeds 100,000


Updated 13:05 29 October 04

NewScientist.com news service

The invasion of Iraq in March 2003 by coalition forces has lead to the death of at least 100,000 civilians, reveals the first scientific study to examine the issue.

The majority of these deaths, which are in addition those normally expected from natural causes, illness and accidents, have been among women and children, finds the study, released early by The Lancet on Thursday.

The most common cause of death is as a direct result of violence, mostly caused by coalition air strikes, reveals the study of almost 1000 households scattered across Iraq. And the risk of violent death just after the invasion was 58 times greater than before the war. The overall risk of death was 1.5 times more after the invasion than before.

The figure of 100,000 – estimated by extrapolating the surveyed households’ death toll to the whole population - is based on "conservative assumptions", notes Les Roberts at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the study.

That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the data from this town is included, the study points to about 200,000
excess deaths since the outbreak of war.

Body count


“The invasion of Iraq, the displacement of a cruel dictator, and the attempt to impose a liberal democracy by force have, by themselves, been insufficient to bring peace and security to the civilian population. Democratic imperialism has led to more deaths, not fewer,” writes Richard Horton, the editor of The Lancet in a commentary accompanying the paper.

He also praises the “courageous team of scientists” for their efforts, and notes the study’s limitations.

Jack Straw, the UK government’s foreign minister says the government will "examine with very great care" the results of the study.

"It is, however, an estimate that is based on very different methodology from standard methodology for assessing causalities, namely on the number of people reported to have been killed at the time," he told the BBC.

One major project, www.iraqbodycount.net, estimates up to 16,300 deaths in Iraq due to coalition forces. But this collects data on deaths reported in the press only. “We've always maintained that the actual count must be much higher," says Scott Lipscomb, at Northwestern University, Illinois, US, who works on the project. "I am emotionally shocked but I have no trouble in believing that this many people have been killed," he told The New York Times.


GPS sampling


The team of US and Iraqi scientists recorded mortality during the 15 months before the invasion and the 18 months afterwards. They carried out the survey of 988 Iraqi households in 33 different areas across Iraq in September 2004.

Using a GPS (global positioning system) unit, the interviewers randomly selected towns within governates. They then visited the nearest 30 houses to the GPS point randomly selected.

Families living under one roof were asked about deaths in their household before and after the war. “Confirmation was sought to ensure that a large fraction of the reported deaths were not fabrications,” write the team. The interviewers did ask for death certificates, but only in two cases for each cluster of houses. This was because of concerns that implying the families were lying could trigger violence.


But the team believes that lying about deaths is unlikely and, if anything, “it is possible that deaths were not reported” because families might want to conceal them.

Horton acknowledges the potential for recall bias among those interviewed and also the relatively small sample size. “The research was completed under the most testing of circumstances - an ongoing war. And therefore certain limitations were inevitable and need to be acknowledged right away,” he says.

But he also calls for an “urgent political and military response”.

[PunkRockMaL7]

Its not that i want people to die. Because i dont. I truly am a caring person. But i think of it like this. When they supposedly did the ethnic cleansing on the jews, i think it should of been the other way around. They should of killed the Nazi's for thinking that way. Get the bad thoughts out of their heads, we as americans are really not that bad if people would just give us a chance. The people of the middle east dont look at the fact that we give billions of dollars in aid to help them and everyone else in the world. They just hate us because we are free and they aren't. Ok, so maybe ethnic cleansing was a bad phrase to use...so how about ignorance cleansing ... or something on that line. We are trying to help more than we are trying to hurt. No, i dont think that Iraq needs to be governed the way we are, because i'm sure you will all agree that there are plenty of flaws in our goverment. But, they need a little bit of a better role model than SH.

[PunkRockMaL7]

Dutchie wrote this in another thread ...
don't think you can say anything you want, because we (the fundamentalists) won't settle this in court, the civilized way, no - we'll slaughter you like a pig, and we don't care that you leave a child behind, we don't care at all, because OUR religion is one of hatred and vengeance: killing you like a pig will get us extra bonus in the afterlife. We might even get an extra virgin to screw over... And we don't even regard women to be human beings...

This is the kind of hatred that i'm talking about that needs to be rid of. This is the way the Muslims think and act. They have no feelings of love towards anyone else...even though we want to help they still want to kill those who speak bad of them. But, dont go messing around other peoples lifes and killing randomly. All they are doing is just making people more and more upset with them and they talking will continue and the killings will continue and nothing will get solved. Those people that are taking part in all this chaos should be the ones who suffer.

[DontBeAfraid]

They just hate us because we are free and they aren't

Its really our foriegn policies that make them hate us.


This is the way the Muslims think and act.

Im sure you meant islamic fundamentalists and not muslims....


how about ignorance cleansing ... or something on that line.

You're welcome.

[dutchie]

Please do not misinterpret my post: I WAS definitely talking about fundamentalists, and NOT about all muslims.

[PunkRockMaL7]

I know what you were talking about Dutchie, i read that entire post. Trying to get a point across and i apparently couldnt think of the correct phrasing to put along with it.


Im sure you meant islamic fundamentalists and not muslims....

Yes i'm sorry, not all Muslims are bad. The extremist, the ones who go over the edge. The ones who take things like 4 steps to far.

[niteflyer]

I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of ignorance cleansing...it should and must be done for the survival of the race. I think most of you are missing the point though; ignorance cleansing is starting with this conflict, and is soon to spread to other parts of the world. (Iran, North Korea). The ignorant are gonna die by the million, the American empirists, the Muslim fundamentalists, the nuke builders, all the aggressive idiots. What we should be lamenting is the death of the reasonable people that are being and will be exterminated for being associated with extremism in its many forms. This is just a small lead in step to the NWO, and America will get knocked down a few notches. Watch for the ratcheting up of pressure on Iran as soon as the election controversies settle down, they are next, and its gonna explode...even America has a large percentage of nonproductive ignorants, and this is how they are gonna be dealt with...sent to fight or employed building war machines, some free and some in labor camps..

[Rynotek]

And please dont say realist's

Ethnic cleansing
Ingnorance cleansing

F**king mega rich greedy bast**d cleansing is the way forward. Feed, educate and house the poor, you will see a fantastic drop in Terrorism. Pompous gits.

[PunkRockMaL7]

F**king mega rich greedy bast**d cleansing is the way forward. Feed, educate and house the poor, you will see a fantastic drop in Terrorism. Pompous gits.

I agree with you. But i dont think that making the poor richer is the way to solve anything. I hate the corporate world more than anything, unfortunately it is the only way to make a living these days is to get wrapped up in it. But, if you give the people the money they need to buy houses and cars and support their families, the ignorance will still be there. Now they will just have the money and resources needed to carry through with their acts of terrorism.

To off of that, there is plenty of help that the needy can get. Plenty of shelters that are willing to cloth and feed them. Plenty of organizations wanting to give them jobs and a chance to get off drugs or alcohol if they so choose. I try and help when i can bringing them bottled water and a little change here and there. I live in a city with a LOT of homeless and most of the ones that you see begging are at the same corner everyday and most seem pretty content, even some that dress and look wealthier than me. I dont think that solving the problem of the hungry (atleast in the US) will help terrorist problems. Because, the problems have been solved, its whether or not they accept the help.