Murder of filmaker "Theo van Gogh" shocks Dutch citizens. . .

[Bigsky770]

Controversial Dutch filmmaker shot dead
Tue Nov 2, 2004 02:49 PM ET

By Paul Gallagher and Marcel Michelson

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - A controversial Dutch filmmaker accused by Muslims of ridiculing their religion has been stabbed and shot dead on his bicycle, shocking the Netherlands where the murder was denounced as an attack on free speech.
Theo van Gogh, a distant relative of 19th century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, stirred controversy with newspaper articles, books and films voicing his contentious views on Islam after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.
Van Gogh, 47, was attacked near a park close to the centre of the Dutch capital in the morning on his way to work in what could be the second political killing in the country in two years after anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn was shot.
Police arrested a man near the scene after an exchange of gunfire in which the suspect wounded a police officer. The suspect, who was wounded in the leg, was a 26-year-old man with dual Dutch and Moroccan citizenship.

The COMPLETE story @ this LINK:

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6691891

. . .In a country where free speech is treasured above all, many were shocked at the murder of Theo van Gogh, filmaker, who was a very popular public figure. Your thoughts on this? (do you think) that he may have incited those whom he mocked to an act of revenge, and in the future those of his type/public figures should hold their tongues when it come to expressing themselves, (or) do you believe that "Free Speech" should be allowed without fear of reprisal?

. . .I myself believe he should have NEVER had to fear an act such as this to be carried-out upon himself, and should be able to speak his mind. The perpetrators of such an act, (if convicted) have shown just how dangerous they feel the rights of "Freedom of Speech" are, and as well to one of our most treasured of liberties, no-matter WHAT country you are from.

. . .Perhaps this is the way those Muslim extremists would have our entire world? :gtfo:

Thoughts? Joe (Bigsky770) (no 'smilies' to add here)

[dutchie]

My country is shocked AND ANGRY!!!

Theo van Gogh just finished a film about the death of Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered may 6, 2002. Fortuyn was also known for his controversial statements about immigrants. But the main difference lies in the fact that Fortuyn was the leader of a political movement. Its aim was to get a say in national policy. Van Gogh was an artist, a man that liked to provoke, spoke his mind and was convinced he had not only a right to do that, but also a duty.

Theo was very probably murdered because of one of his latest films, "Submission", in which an islamic woman is shown, wearing a transparent burka, and has texts from the Koran painted all over her naked body. The film was a statement against the abuse of women and the general disdain for women in the islamic faith, the fundamentalist part of this in particular. The film was made in cooperation with Ayaan Hirschi Ali, a female ex-muslim politician, originating from Somalia. She has received numerous death threats since the movie was finished, and lives under constant surveillance (she permanently has 8 security guards surrounding her). Theo van Gogh (who is a distant relative of the famous painter) always said he did not care for protection and thought most fundamentalist people would regard him as the "village loony", not worth to shoot.

Van Gogh was against ANY kind of fundamentalism, be it christian, political or muslim.

He was shot 6 times when fleeing his assailant. The murderer followed him to the other side of the street, and cut his throat with a butcher knife. When he was sure Theo had died (he stood over the body, watching it for several minutes) he put the butcher knife in his chest, and stuck another knife in his stomach. A note was attached to the latter, on which Koran verses were written.

Van Gogh was certainly a controversial figure. But that was no reason to butcher off this artist. I am VERY ANGRY. Not only do idiots like this twist the neck of the last respect people have for non-fundamentalist muslims, but they show us quite clearly that the era in which we believed to have built a country where tolerance and understanding are important values has definitely come to an end. Yesterday I heard an interview on the radio with some hotshot from the islamic leadership, in which he pleaded for a renewed discussion about the acceptance of muslims in the Netherlands. I was totally flabagasted. Discussion?!? STFU!!! You're under a Dutch roof, and you'll have to live by Dutch rules and laws. No more cultural discussions and victim role playing. Either adapt, or get the fuck out!!

I am sorry for this emotional reaction, but at the moment I AM PISSED OFF!!!

[dutchie]

Moreover, when can we expect the non-violent islamic community to collectively speak out in force against this abhorrent behavior?

This was an important issue in the media discussions yesterday evening. Yes, you are right - it IS time for the non-violent community to speak out and take a clear stance in this. If they don't, it will be regarded as if they silently condone this murder.

[Juliëtte]

yes Dutchie , what a terrible day for Holland ...when i heart it yesterday I was
really shocked and very mad to...this will have great consequenses for our country,
i believe. so sad that this happened , so awfull...

[Bigsky770]

Moreover, when can we expect the non-violent islamic community to collectively speak out in force against this abhorrent behavior?

. . .Sadly, no. I don't expect that they will. Any statement made will fall far short of utter condemnation. If the past is any indication of what to expect I would say that you will see much of the following:

1. They'll claim he was "Asking for it" by making a mockery of extremist Muslims/and the way they view their faith, (when in truth, they have turned it into a mockery themselves). I see rationalizing, and recriminations.

2. Displaced blame. (surely not a "Muslim" did this horrendous act!) they'll place blame squarely upon an outsider-of-their-faith, not wanting to believe (or) accept that one of their own had been capable of this. Do not be to surprised if some of the accusations from them were to include members of the gov't of the Netherlands, they'll probably say that this killing was done to sabotage the delicate balance of peace and security that the Muslim community currently enjoys there.

. . .They will call for "peace" and "understanding", but expect any reply to be carefully worded as to NOT contain an all-inclusive apology. :btchn:

Theo was no-doubt a terrible loss, my heart goes out to your country and it's people/as well I 'second' that statement from Micky, my condolences as well to his family. :(

Joe (Bigsky770)

[dutchie]

Both your points have already taken place, Joe.

Our government is more than a little worried that the otherwise quiet Dutch will ignite and start a vigilante lynching of randomly chosen muslims.. Personally I think it won't happen, but the possibility sure is there.

It's time muslims all over the world realize that the world is engulfed in a big turmoil, and that THEY're at the very heart of it... Cut the victim role playing, it's damn time to start taking a hands on approach to root out this shit by the muslims THEMSELVES!! Islamic faith is losing credibility ground at a pace more rapid than the distruction of the friggin rain forest.

[Bigsky770]

Both your points have already taken place, Joe.

. . .We have had much experience with these types of reactions from them, I would be surprised if their response was otherwise.

. . .As for the random lynching, I have hopes that it will not come to this, it would just cause an escalation to the violence.


It's time muslims all over the world realize that the world is engulfed in a big turmoil, and that THEY're at the very heart of it... Cut the victim role playing, it's damn time to start taking a hands on approach to root out this shit by the muslims THEMSELVES!! Islamic faith is losing credibility ground at a pace more rapid than the distruction of the friggin rain forest.

True, true. . .Joe (Bigsky770)

[Defiant Noquisi]

Terrible, terrible, terrible! GRRRRRRR!!!

Ill stop now. Im so angry I may end up posting something racist or at the very least, religion bashing in tone. Much worse than I ever have posted.

I cant help it, I just cant....

IF THOSE %$#@$%^^ SPINELESS JELLYFISH PERSONS DONT ASSIST IN REINING IN THOSE OF THEIR OWN SOMEONE ELSE WILL!!

:boom:

[dutchie]

What really makes this murder a terrible one IMO:

this was not a soldier shot by another soldier;
this was not a randomly selected civilian;
this was not a politician, seeking control or power;
this was not a man with a SINGLED OUT grudge against the Islam - he was against ALL forms of fundamentalism.

The violence against him was not just premeditated - it was a carefully planned execution. The murderer knew EXACTLY what the best spot would be to kill Theo, at the edge of a park. He knew his route. He had the paper with the Koran verses on it ready made in his pocket.

It's meant as a deterrent against the free speech: don't think you can say anything you want, because we (the fundamentalists) won't settle this in court, the civilized way, no - we'll slaughter you like a pig, and we don't care that you leave a child behind, we don't care at all, because OUR religion is one of hatred and vengeance: killing you like a pig will get us extra bonus in the afterlife. We might even get an extra virgin to screw over... And we don't even regard women to be human beings...

OK, I know there are muslims that are appalled by what happened. LET THEM NOW SPEAK!!

[DontBeAfraid]

This was a hate crime....... Did they catch the zealot?

[dutchie]

Yes. He shot a police officer while trying to escape. Luckily the officer was wearing a bulletproof vest, and got away with some bruises. They shot the murderer in the leg and arrested him. He appeared to be a member of a radical muslim group and had been watched by the AIVD (Dutch national intelligence service) for some time. Not close enough, apparently...

[DontBeAfraid]

Not close enough, apparently...

Dont say that, what happened was tragic but a Dutch Patriot Act would be just as sad.

[dutchie]

You're right...

[dutchie]

That's right.. Mohammed B. was indeed a member of a fundamentalist terrorist group. 8 members were arrested.

I'll post an interview with Theo later on (when I get the translation finished), but to give you an idea exactly HOW controversial some of his statements were:

Q: "Do you have a personal faith or religion?"
A: "Yes. I worship a god that has the shape of a pig and I call it Allah.. What's there to criticize? It's just MY belief..."

[DarkAce]

THE HAGUE — The Dutch government yesterday vowed tough measures against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found spiked with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Muslim attacker.

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders — including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament — to take on bodyguards.
The document, attached to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An Open Letter to [Aayan] Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Mr. van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.
Miss Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

"Death, Ms. Hirsi Ali, is the common theme of all that exists. You and the rest of the cosmos cannot escape this truth," the letter said.
"There will come a day when one soul cannot help another soul. A day that goes paired with terrible tortures, ... when the unjust will press horrible screams from their lungs.
"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.
"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Mr. van Gogh's slaying a declaration of Islamic jihad, or "holy war."
"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."
Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.


Link:http://www.washtimes.com/world/20041105-111203-2758r.htm

[dutchie]

This morning at 4 AM a islamic school was partly laid in ruins by a massive bomb. Windows from houses in the surroundings of the school broke, the damage is massive.

This is definitely NOT how things should be. Innocent people - children even - are now under attack.

I'm all for strict measurements being taken against fundamentalist groups, but this is ridiculous. :gtfo:

[substand]

Not just freedom of speech, but freedom of conscience is central to any free society. Speech is how we express our conscious.

It is ridiculous how this guy died, and I would even say the same if he were espousing opinions contrary to my own.

I hope the perpetrators are caught, tried, and punished.

Opinions expressing fundamentalism or extremism are not bad in and of themselves. Even lies being espoused are not bad. What is bad is the supression of thought and speech. The rest will sort itself out with discussion.

[Defiant Noquisi]

'Bout time you showed up subs. I was beginning to wonder if you had forgotten about the freedom to put your fingers to the keyboard.

[Bigsky770]

"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down".

EAT MY SHORTS!

Note to Sam: Yah man, where yah been? (good to see yah back!) :D

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[substand]

hey guys... thanks for the welcome back... been playing too much poker, working, and writing for my own website lately... mostly the difference is in the poker, but i'm trying to make a comeback! =)

[Defiant Noquisi]

hey guys... thanks for the welcome back... been playing too much poker, working, and writing for my own website lately... mostly the difference is in the poker, but i'm trying to make a comeback! =) A few really bad hands would hopefully cure you dear.