mickydoolittle
Nov 4th, 2004, 4:29 PM
removed for numerous reasons, number one being that MD "is not welcome here".
View Full Version : Why won't they publicly denounce the abhorrent behavior?
playmaker88
Nov 11th, 2004, 8:32 AM
I personally think that the religious leaders of Islam so often fail to denounce the attorcities committed in the name of their faith due to the fear of reprisal against themselves. This however is a flagrant mis-use of the position that they have obtained and a total lack of leadership and courage in the name of their inspiration, qualities that should have been in abundance in the attainment of that position.
As for the people who encourage, finance or plan attrocities, they are surely as responsible (if not more so) as the people who actually commit the act. It surprises me little that these TOTAL COWARDS feel above reprisal, sending their lapdogs in to do their dirty work when it is these people who plant the seeds of hatred and stir up the hornets nest of troubles that blight the Earth.
It is easy for other countries to stand back and take pot shots at the United States of America for being willing to take unilateral action in the face of terror but I believe that their leaders have made brave decisions and honestly believe that their sons are putting their lives on the line, not just for the continuation of the American way of life but for the benefit of every decent human being on the planet, regardless of their faith. Whether they have set about it in the right way is up for debate.
Micky said "Religion is religion and idiots flock to it...to each their own." I would whole heartedly agree with the first half of the statement, thing is intelligent people flock to religion also and often with equally disastrous results. Pride in your country and pride in your faith can be beautiful things but they can be very dangerous things too. The young, no matter how intelligent, can be very impressionable, follow what they know or what they are spoon fed by their daily plight or Al Jazeera. Their leaders total lack of courage in denouncing the aforementioned attrocities does nothing but reinforce the young peoples beliefs that there is a holy war raging and as soon as they are old enough they too will do their duty.
There are religious nuts on the other sides too and so the line "to each their own" is a nice sentiment but not one I would agree with and one I think and hope Micky used sarcastically. The religious beliefs of too many people are forced down the throats of too many others on this planet and their claims to follow the good and righteous in the name of their particular belief system is undeniably hypocritical when their actions turn to aggression or violence against other religions or individuals.
As for the people who encourage, finance or plan attrocities, they are surely as responsible (if not more so) as the people who actually commit the act. It surprises me little that these TOTAL COWARDS feel above reprisal, sending their lapdogs in to do their dirty work when it is these people who plant the seeds of hatred and stir up the hornets nest of troubles that blight the Earth.
It is easy for other countries to stand back and take pot shots at the United States of America for being willing to take unilateral action in the face of terror but I believe that their leaders have made brave decisions and honestly believe that their sons are putting their lives on the line, not just for the continuation of the American way of life but for the benefit of every decent human being on the planet, regardless of their faith. Whether they have set about it in the right way is up for debate.
Micky said "Religion is religion and idiots flock to it...to each their own." I would whole heartedly agree with the first half of the statement, thing is intelligent people flock to religion also and often with equally disastrous results. Pride in your country and pride in your faith can be beautiful things but they can be very dangerous things too. The young, no matter how intelligent, can be very impressionable, follow what they know or what they are spoon fed by their daily plight or Al Jazeera. Their leaders total lack of courage in denouncing the aforementioned attrocities does nothing but reinforce the young peoples beliefs that there is a holy war raging and as soon as they are old enough they too will do their duty.
There are religious nuts on the other sides too and so the line "to each their own" is a nice sentiment but not one I would agree with and one I think and hope Micky used sarcastically. The religious beliefs of too many people are forced down the throats of too many others on this planet and their claims to follow the good and righteous in the name of their particular belief system is undeniably hypocritical when their actions turn to aggression or violence against other religions or individuals.
dutchie
Nov 11th, 2004, 8:57 AM
IMO at this moment there is no nation where affairs of state and fundamentalis religion are so carelessly mixed as in the USA. Christian fundamentalism is JUST AS BAD as muslim fundamentalism.
If it were indeed true that only stupid people would follow fundamentalist religion, the problem we're facing would not be so grave as it now is - and is continuing to develop for the worse. Playmaker is absolutely right about this.
If it were indeed true that only stupid people would follow fundamentalist religion, the problem we're facing would not be so grave as it now is - and is continuing to develop for the worse. Playmaker is absolutely right about this.
VegasRonin
Nov 12th, 2004, 7:37 PM
The smart ones were the ones who invented religion, to control the masses. Its no accident that the Wisemen and Wisewomen of the ancient world were the go betweens of god(s) and men.
Defiant Noquisi
Nov 28th, 2004, 8:06 AM
Speaking of using religion for a control tactic, this article scares the broccoli out of me.....
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=280881&page=1
Yeah, I dont see our religious whackos publically denouncing bad behaviour either. Instead they are basking in it as if Bush was a prophet himself.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=280881&page=1
Yeah, I dont see our religious whackos publically denouncing bad behaviour either. Instead they are basking in it as if Bush was a prophet himself.
Defiant Noquisi
Nov 28th, 2004, 11:21 PM
I knew youd be thoroughly entertained by it. YW
dutchie
Dec 3rd, 2004, 6:29 AM
Doesn't any American acknowledge the slow trend in the USA of constantly adding more and more religion into politics (with the media aiding eagerly), slowly erasing the borderline between a fundy islamic state and a fundy evangelical dogmatics driven administration? Bush is not only taking advice from Cheney, mind you. His other main source is fundy christian religion. God is becoming the American God and I think this is a development that worries the shit out of me.
Will atheists and agnostics eventually be the next "enemies of the state"?
Will atheists and agnostics eventually be the next "enemies of the state"?
Skippy
Dec 3rd, 2004, 3:59 PM
I take offense at the suggestion that intelligent people aren't religious. I posess a genius IQ, (and I have find Mensa mebers to be dullards) I am self-educated, employed at a very stable company, and I am deeply religious. I know many others like me.
Is America trying to wipe out Islam? Absolutely. To many people Islam is the fundamental version of it in a strict sense, and it is lead by clerics such as the person quoted in the article. George Bush has been very clear in calling these people terrorists and his goal of ridding the world of them. To the adherents of this brand of Islam, it really does look like America is trying to wipe them out because they don't believe the watered down version of Islam that is practiced by many in the US is Islam at all.
The issue at hand is not the religions itself, but the extremism. It doesn't matter whether you are any religion, but when you become an extremist and try to impose your own religion on others, then you will be causing harm. Should your brand of religion be eradicated? That all depends on which perspective you are on.
It certainly doesn't help matters that Bush endears himself to Christian fundamentalists, and Jewish Zionists who continue to call for the eradication of Islam. Perhaps if he would censure the likes of Jerry (Tinky is Gay) Falwell, but that will never happen because he would alienate a large portion of his voter base who are very bigoted and racist.
The concept of a cleric (people leader) being persecuted isn't as foreign as it may sound. It happens all the time. Military snipers always shoot the officers first, so do the political snipers. Will this guy get a fair trial, I certainly doubt it since the US does have influence in Indonesia. Did the guy commit the crimes he is accused of? I don't know, but if he is subject to the same laws as those being held at Gitmo, then I will question the verdict.
I am not surprised that people in the US, who are so far away from the actual trial are so sure of the truth of the matter. The US is the worst place on the planet at the moment for "trial by media." Look at OJ, Jacko, Kobe and Martha Stewart. People continue to make pronouncements about guilt and innocence long before the first piece of evidence has been presented to the court. Innocent until proven guilty is the domain of script writers. This applies to beheadings, kidnappings, and everything else going on in Iraq.
As for terrorism? I think people in the western world should open their eyes to history. The West brought it to them first, they are finally fighting back. While you people will be weeping in the streets for the nearly 3000 people who perished at the WTC, how many shed a tear for the 3000 that died when the US decided that Manuel Noriega was no longer their friend, which coincided with the Panama Canal reverting back to Panamanian control? Oh, that's right, he was a drug dealer.
Since the Second World War the US has been going into countries and meddling with impunity. People are finally starting to fight back. But, you have been growing fat watching The Simpsons re-runs while you ignored what was being done in your name. Now it is too late. You have no sympathy from me, because I have studied history, and it was just a matter of time before it got to this. It gets worse from here on out.
Is America trying to wipe out Islam? Absolutely. To many people Islam is the fundamental version of it in a strict sense, and it is lead by clerics such as the person quoted in the article. George Bush has been very clear in calling these people terrorists and his goal of ridding the world of them. To the adherents of this brand of Islam, it really does look like America is trying to wipe them out because they don't believe the watered down version of Islam that is practiced by many in the US is Islam at all.
The issue at hand is not the religions itself, but the extremism. It doesn't matter whether you are any religion, but when you become an extremist and try to impose your own religion on others, then you will be causing harm. Should your brand of religion be eradicated? That all depends on which perspective you are on.
It certainly doesn't help matters that Bush endears himself to Christian fundamentalists, and Jewish Zionists who continue to call for the eradication of Islam. Perhaps if he would censure the likes of Jerry (Tinky is Gay) Falwell, but that will never happen because he would alienate a large portion of his voter base who are very bigoted and racist.
The concept of a cleric (people leader) being persecuted isn't as foreign as it may sound. It happens all the time. Military snipers always shoot the officers first, so do the political snipers. Will this guy get a fair trial, I certainly doubt it since the US does have influence in Indonesia. Did the guy commit the crimes he is accused of? I don't know, but if he is subject to the same laws as those being held at Gitmo, then I will question the verdict.
I am not surprised that people in the US, who are so far away from the actual trial are so sure of the truth of the matter. The US is the worst place on the planet at the moment for "trial by media." Look at OJ, Jacko, Kobe and Martha Stewart. People continue to make pronouncements about guilt and innocence long before the first piece of evidence has been presented to the court. Innocent until proven guilty is the domain of script writers. This applies to beheadings, kidnappings, and everything else going on in Iraq.
As for terrorism? I think people in the western world should open their eyes to history. The West brought it to them first, they are finally fighting back. While you people will be weeping in the streets for the nearly 3000 people who perished at the WTC, how many shed a tear for the 3000 that died when the US decided that Manuel Noriega was no longer their friend, which coincided with the Panama Canal reverting back to Panamanian control? Oh, that's right, he was a drug dealer.
Since the Second World War the US has been going into countries and meddling with impunity. People are finally starting to fight back. But, you have been growing fat watching The Simpsons re-runs while you ignored what was being done in your name. Now it is too late. You have no sympathy from me, because I have studied history, and it was just a matter of time before it got to this. It gets worse from here on out.
Skippy
Dec 4th, 2004, 7:47 AM
Well Mickey, your avatar pretty much sums you up better than I can. You completely ignore the salient points of what I posted, so I will have to clarify it, but can't right now. You missed quite a bit of what I was trying to explain, and seemed to focus on a few typos, yet, it never occured to you that I am typing with a pinched nerve in my shoulder that is causing numbness in my left hand, not did it occur to you that I am visually impaired so it makes proof-reading difficult, and without the ability to edit posts after the submit button has been clicked, no corrections can be made.
Your response was based more on emotion than intellect, but that's okay because I have observed that most Bush supporters share this trait. I will get back to you on this, and I will clarify everything for you, but I doubt you will ever get it. It is not in your nature. In the mean time, why not try and go back to the post and address the salient points, rather than the unimportant stuff?
Your response was based more on emotion than intellect, but that's okay because I have observed that most Bush supporters share this trait. I will get back to you on this, and I will clarify everything for you, but I doubt you will ever get it. It is not in your nature. In the mean time, why not try and go back to the post and address the salient points, rather than the unimportant stuff?
VegasRonin
Dec 4th, 2004, 6:26 PM
So Skippy, you see America as being to blame for ME extremism. You also insult many American Islamic followers who choose to practice a more tolerant version of Islam. I wonder to myself, and sometimes here, what it is that people that believe such as you do want? You'd prefer that Islamic extremism be the law of the land? Do you truly believe that any country in the world has existed or can exist without having blood and dirt on their collective hands? Countries just peacefully divide themselves up and poof instant country? You obviously don't know what it takes to maintain a country, any country. It has never been that way, and it will probably never be that way. Those that have less through fate or the inability to execute positive constructive plans, either individually or collectively, have always blamed those that by fate or the ability to execute their ideas have amassed more or achieved greater heights. If the majority of these extremist venom spitters put a fraction of effort into helping their people rather than attacking a giant, that they can't win against, they could turn around their people's plight. To blame the haves and side with the have nots, is just a liberal mindset, and it can't possibly have any real positive results.
I REMEMBER AN OLD EPISODE OF KUNG-FU: Kane asked his Shaolin Master why The Shaolin Monks don't usurp power from the Emperor and set-up a more peaceful empire? The Shaolin Master replied, the current emperor is the grandson of the Shaolin Monk from the last time they did indeed do that very thing. I wonder if this analogy is lost on you?
I REMEMBER AN OLD EPISODE OF KUNG-FU: Kane asked his Shaolin Master why The Shaolin Monks don't usurp power from the Emperor and set-up a more peaceful empire? The Shaolin Master replied, the current emperor is the grandson of the Shaolin Monk from the last time they did indeed do that very thing. I wonder if this analogy is lost on you?
Skippy
Dec 4th, 2004, 7:34 PM
"you see America as being to blame for ME extremism."
Nope, not at all. But I do see American actions as bringing Islamic extremism to America. This has happened from American meddling in the Middle East, such as the American support of Saddam Hussein, and the Shah of Iran, as well as American support for Israel. In short, I see it along the lines of "ye shall reap that which ye sow." Perhaps if people knew what the West has been doing to the Muslims for the last millennia they might understand why they are so pissed off at westerners.
Upon reflection, and after having debated a few topics here, I have come to the conclusion that my first impression of this place was wrong, and too many people here have closed their minds to too much that I see see not point in continuing posting any more on these topics. I have a pretty good understandning of Islam, as an extreme and as a moderate religion, as well as the minds of the Muslim believer. I have spent countless hours discussing Islam with Muslims, and I have been to a mosque. Something I have yet to see here from anyone else.
So rather than spending hours upon hours of writing out articles with references and footnotes to explain things, that will be reacted to with emotion rather than intellect, I'd be better off doing other things that won't make my arm go numb.
Nope, not at all. But I do see American actions as bringing Islamic extremism to America. This has happened from American meddling in the Middle East, such as the American support of Saddam Hussein, and the Shah of Iran, as well as American support for Israel. In short, I see it along the lines of "ye shall reap that which ye sow." Perhaps if people knew what the West has been doing to the Muslims for the last millennia they might understand why they are so pissed off at westerners.
Upon reflection, and after having debated a few topics here, I have come to the conclusion that my first impression of this place was wrong, and too many people here have closed their minds to too much that I see see not point in continuing posting any more on these topics. I have a pretty good understandning of Islam, as an extreme and as a moderate religion, as well as the minds of the Muslim believer. I have spent countless hours discussing Islam with Muslims, and I have been to a mosque. Something I have yet to see here from anyone else.
So rather than spending hours upon hours of writing out articles with references and footnotes to explain things, that will be reacted to with emotion rather than intellect, I'd be better off doing other things that won't make my arm go numb.
Skippy
Dec 4th, 2004, 8:02 PM
Mickey, by stating that Europe is not the West demonstrates that you will never understand anything other than the propaganda fed to you by your government because Middle Eastern Muslims consider Europe as being the West.
I have a pinched nerve in my left shoulder that causes my left arm considerable pain, and numbness in my left hand. The numbness is intermittent, and is aggravated by typing long passages. So fuck you. Please don't bother to respond, because this place is too filled with rednecks, and teen-eaged mentality for my taste, I shan't be back. If I want this shit, I can get it at godlikeproductions without the expectation of it being anything else. Some of you folks seem nice and intelligent, but too many have closed minds and are more intent on looking for typos than engaging in discourse. I've neither the time nor the inclination to debate issues of no consequence.
I have a pinched nerve in my left shoulder that causes my left arm considerable pain, and numbness in my left hand. The numbness is intermittent, and is aggravated by typing long passages. So fuck you. Please don't bother to respond, because this place is too filled with rednecks, and teen-eaged mentality for my taste, I shan't be back. If I want this shit, I can get it at godlikeproductions without the expectation of it being anything else. Some of you folks seem nice and intelligent, but too many have closed minds and are more intent on looking for typos than engaging in discourse. I've neither the time nor the inclination to debate issues of no consequence.
VegasRonin
Dec 4th, 2004, 8:48 PM
Before you go skippy, answer this
I wonder to myself, and sometimes here, what it is that people that believe such as you do want?Also, there is an ignore option if you choose not to correspond with certain member(s). FYI
I wonder to myself, and sometimes here, what it is that people that believe such as you do want?Also, there is an ignore option if you choose not to correspond with certain member(s). FYI
dutchie
Dec 6th, 2004, 1:12 AM
Eehr, ahem... There's me....
I am from Yurop. I AM a westerner. Both in mentality as by cultural background. This board kicks ass, Skippy, but there are members of all camps present here.
I don't like George W. Bush. Personally I think he's the worst thing that happened to the planet in the last 20 years or so.
Now there are those among us that would like to fry my ass over a remark like that. I don't care. I don't run, I don't hide. I reply to their (sometimes stupid) posts with patience and (typo) care.
I feel sorry about your pinched nerve - from experience I know how this can slow you down. But don't tie this and posts from members together, while there is no connection at all. You post here by free will. And - believe me - there are members here that absolutely share your views. Don't expect them to immediately emerge and collectively shout "Hooray for Skippy!!" when you post. That's all.
I am from Yurop. I AM a westerner. Both in mentality as by cultural background. This board kicks ass, Skippy, but there are members of all camps present here.
I don't like George W. Bush. Personally I think he's the worst thing that happened to the planet in the last 20 years or so.
Now there are those among us that would like to fry my ass over a remark like that. I don't care. I don't run, I don't hide. I reply to their (sometimes stupid) posts with patience and (typo) care.
I feel sorry about your pinched nerve - from experience I know how this can slow you down. But don't tie this and posts from members together, while there is no connection at all. You post here by free will. And - believe me - there are members here that absolutely share your views. Don't expect them to immediately emerge and collectively shout "Hooray for Skippy!!" when you post. That's all.
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