Falluja - a week later

[DarkAce]

What are peoples' thoughts on what's going on over in Falluja of late?


People in Falloojeh are being murdered. The stories coming back are horrifying. People being shot in cold blood in the streets and being buried under tons of concrete and iron... where is the world? Bury Arafat and hurry up and pay attention to what's happening in Iraq.



Iraqis will never forgive this- never. It's outrageous- it's genocide and America, with the help and support of Allawi, is responsible. May whoever contributes to this see the sorrow, terror and misery of the people suffering in Falloojeh.



Dozens of civilians have died these last few days in Ramadi, Falloojeh, and Samarra. We are hearing about complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces. The phone lines in those areas seem to be cut off. We've been trying to call some relatives in Ramadi for the last two days, but it's next to impossible. We keep getting that dreadful busy tone and there's just no real way of knowing what is going on in there. There is talk of the use of cluster bombs and other forbidden weaponry.



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Aid agencies have called on U.S. forces and the Iraqi government to allow them to deliver food, medicine and water to Falluja, and saying that four days of intense fighting have turned the city into a "big disaster".



Scores of buildings in Falluja have been completely destroyed, with TV footage showing some districts all but levelled. There has been no water and electricity for days and food shops have been closed, residents say.



U.S. commanders say civilian casualties have been low, but residents dispute that, describing incidents in which non-combatants, including women and children, have been killed by shrapnel or hit by bombs.

In one case earlier this week, a 9-year-old boy was hit in the stomach by a piece of shrapnel. His parents said they couldn't get him to hospital because of the fighting, so they wrapped sheets around his stomach to try to stem the bleeding. He died hours later of blood loss and was buried in the garden.



"There's no water. People are drinking dirty water. Children are dying. People are eating flour because there's no proper food," he told aid workers in Habbaniya, which has become a refugee camp, with around 2,000 families sheltering there.



It is hard to know how much people outside Falluja are aware of what is going on here.

I want them to know about conditions inside this city - there are dead women and children lying on the streets.

People are getting weaker from hunger. Many are dying from their injuries because there is no medical help left in the city whatsoever.

Some families have started burying their dead in their gardens.


Articles:
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=620124&section=news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4004873.stm
http://rense.com/general59/being.htm

[DarkAce]

Bias, yes, however my intention is to remind people the actual horror of war. Seems that certain people need to be reminded now and again that war isn't pretty and what the stakes really are.

For the record I was for going in and still am in agreement for the war.

[MetalMilitia]

After six days of intense combat against the Fallujah insurgents, US warplanes, tanks and mortars have left a shattered landscape of gutted buildings, crushed cars and charred bodies.

Seen any of Saddam's WMDs around?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=582915

This fighting style will never work... we take a huge chunk of our troops, amass them around the area to attack, then level it... meanwhile, while we're doing all this, the "insurgents" (or what I like to call - pissed off Iraqis that dont want their nation ruled by another country) slip out the back door.

At the same time we shoot civillians in the confusion ( http://mparent7777.blog-city.com/read/911982.htm ), level homes, and defile their sacred sites. Cause ya gotta remember, it's all about "winning hearts and minds." I've read we killed anywhere from 400-600 civillian in this operation alone... where's the outrage?Sun Tzu wrote that nations that initiate war must be convinced that they have the moral law on their side. Clearly, US Soldiers know they fight a war of conquest and aggression and that the moral law is on the side of the opposition. They feel trapped between what they think was their duty to the US and what really occured in the war zones.

The city of a thousand mosques is destroyed - http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1351589,00.html

If this doesnt win over the people of Iraq I don't know what will. Nearly 50 Americans killed, 400 wounded, and more than 1000 Iraqis (civillians and 'insurgents') killed, It just so comfortable to remember that "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended".

No ties to 9/11
No ties to al quaida
No credible (not from the Iran/Iraq war) WMD's of any kind

We have in custody 1 old man at the cost of nearly $200 billion, and have removed a few of his 'regime' - but with the figting going so stupidly from one city to another, I can't really see an end. Meanwhile the actual perpatrators, the ones that ACTUALLY ATTACKED THIS COUNTRY, are off fucking a goat concubine in some caves while we blow all of our money and resources in Iraq.

[humanhybrid]

Well hopefully, we will remember what our boys went through and pay them the patience and unity they deserve. Perhaps they will not be spat upon like their fathers and grandfathers when they returned home.__________________
They will certainly remember the horrors and the deaths of innocent women and children AND the people who had nothing to do with 911 nor any WMD. WHAT THEY DESERVE IS A BETTER COMMANDER IN CHIEF! And when they return they will be so radioactive from the DU that they will be taking the very country that they so blindly fought for to court. Is that what they deserve? Is that what our children deserve?
We have in custody 1 old man at the cost of nearly $200 billion, and have removed a few of his 'regime' - but with the figting going so stupidly from one city to another, I can't really see an end. Meanwhile the actual perpatrators, the ones that ACTUALLY ATTACKED THIS COUNTRY, are off fucking a goat concubine in some caves while we blow all of our money and resources in Iraq. It could have not been said better, regardless of one political affiliations. Good day!

[dutchie]

...."He's fucking faking he's dead" BANG!!!! "he's fucking dead now"....

Killing an unarmed, wounded man.

A heroic action by a real AMERICAn...
Hallelujah, only in Fallujah..


Propaganda, Micky???

[dutchie]

Bump.. No reaction to that...

[substand]

...."He's fucking faking he's dead" BANG!!!! "he's fucking dead now"....

Killing an unarmed, wounded man.

A heroic action by a real AMERICAn...
Hallelujah, only in Fallujah..

Dutchie, I'm sure you know we all lament the loss of innocent life. Some of us even lament the loss of life when it is not lost in self defense. Still some others lament the loss of any life whatsoever.

Each of those opinions differs on "when" it is acceptable to kill someone. Some people think it better to die yourself and not even defend your own life. Some on the other extreme may say it is always acceptable to kill. To either of these extremes, I am not speaking.

I am speaking to the crowd who says it is ok to kill sometimes. And to you all, I would like to point out 3 things:

1) this man who was shot was not innocent. He was fighting against order and against free and democratic elections in Iraq.

2) There have been numerous cases of terrorists in Iraq faking death or surrender so that coalition troops will come close to them. The troops often do, and they have been ambushed, hit by bombs, etc. By faking being dead, this man may have truly just wanted to survive. Perhaps he was going to lay down his arms, perhaps he was trying to live to fight another day. However, his dirty fighting friends sealed his death.

I think it was smart to shoot him. And despite the negative feedback from the press, which seems to focus a lot on coalition "atrocities" (and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists), I think their coverage of this incident may be invaluable to coalition troops because it may make terrorists think twice before trying to fake surrender to trap our troops.

3) Perhaps, and only perhaps, if the man had not been faking his death, and surrendered, he could have lived. It is a lot easier to take a prisoner who has his hands where he cannot set off a bomb (ie- above his head) than it is to worry if a "dead" man will pull the pin out of a grenade that is hidden underneath his body.

[MetalMilitia]

This pesky thing called the "Geneva Convnention" is quite clear about shooting unarmed wounded people isn't it? Despite the tactics,

Yer comparing "(and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists)" our tactics to theirs in terms of who's dong what and what's worse?

Don't worry folks, major combat operations in Iraq ended MONTHS ago.

[substand]

This pesky thing called the "Geneva Convnention" is quite clear about shooting unarmed wounded people isn't it? Despite the tactics, Yer comparing "(and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists)" our tactics to theirs in terms of who's dong what and what's worse?


I'm not trying to get around the geneva conv... I only wanted to point out that the media is fair in its balance toward pointing out our wrongs and not theirs. I don't seek to justify or stoop to the level of terrorists. I was simply pointing out that perhaps our reactions are not tempered by the fact that this sort of thing happens quite often where the enemy "pretends" to be dead or surrendering and then kills our soldiers.

"They started it!" =)

[Emerald_Dragon]

:grin

they didn't start it. not this time. arguably, not first time either, depending on how many books you've read regarding it.

i think it was a call that was made on the battleground, one that we cannot make in our armchairs. i disagree with it, i don't condone it, it should not have happened. but well, IMO, the soldier was fending for his life all day and he had to make a choice at that moment in that day. kill him now, or be killed by him later. prisoners have been optional this war and a few of them have been beheaded. they'll worry about morality, if and when they get home.

this wouldn't have happened, if we weren't there. we shouldn't have been there to begin with, but look who's in the White House calling the shots. 'nuff said.

[40oz]

Dutchie, I'm sure you know we all lament the loss of innocent life. Some of us even lament the loss of life when it is not lost in self defense. Still some others lament the loss of any life whatsoever.

Each of those opinions differs on "when" it is acceptable to kill someone. Some people think it better to die yourself and not even defend your own life. Some on the other extreme may say it is always acceptable to kill. To either of these extremes, I am not speaking.

I am speaking to the crowd who says it is ok to kill sometimes. And to you all, I would like to point out 3 things:

1) this man who was shot was not innocent. He was fighting against order and against free and democratic elections in Iraq.

2) There have been numerous cases of terrorists in Iraq faking death or surrender so that coalition troops will come close to them. The troops often do, and they have been ambushed, hit by bombs, etc. By faking being dead, this man may have truly just wanted to survive. Perhaps he was going to lay down his arms, perhaps he was trying to live to fight another day. However, his dirty fighting friends sealed his death.

I think it was smart to shoot him. And despite the negative feedback from the press, which seems to focus a lot on coalition "atrocities" (and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists), I think their coverage of this incident may be invaluable to coalition troops because it may make terrorists think twice before trying to fake surrender to trap our troops.

3) Perhaps, and only perhaps, if the man had not been faking his death, and surrendered, he could have lived. It is a lot easier to take a prisoner who has his hands where he cannot set off a bomb (ie- above his head) than it is to worry if a "dead" man will pull the pin out of a grenade that is hidden underneath his body.

Preach on! One could not have said it better if they tried. Not to mention this guy was wounded in the head prior to this incident. Also, JUST prior to this there were booby trapped "dead" bodies that caused injuries/deaths to either US soldiers or Coalition I cant remember. I don't think you are qualified to say anything negative about Americas Military unless you have walked a mile in the boots of a US soldier at war, Dutchie. You like to sit back and Highbrow others and all you do is post here and talk shit about everyone and everything you can. get a life. It is very easy to say you would never have done the same thing, but then again you've never been there. So bottle up your BS and send it to the french. IRAN's NEXT!!

[40oz]

This pesky thing called the "Geneva Convnention" is quite clear about shooting unarmed wounded people isn't it? Despite the tactics,

Yer comparing "(and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists)" our tactics to theirs in terms of who's dong what and what's worse?

Don't worry folks, major combat operations in Iraq ended MONTHS ago.

The geneva convention does not account for "non Conventional" warfare. This is a very Unconventional war.


Conventional:

Based on or in accordance with general agreement, use, or practice; customary: conventional symbols; a conventional form of address.
Conforming to established practice or accepted standards; traditional: a conventional church wedding.

Devoted to or bound by conventions to the point of artificiality; ceremonious.
Unimaginative; conformist: longed to escape from their conventional, bourgeois lives.
Represented, as in a work of art, in simplified or abstract form.
Law. Based on consent or agreement; contractual.
Of, relating to, or resembling an assembly.
Using means other than nuclear weapons or energy: conventional warfare; conventional power plants.

Bottom line is we are there, The marine didn't have a choice in the matter but he's there. Numero Uno priority is self preservation. Have you ever been bound by the geneva convention? Its so easy to watch from outside the box and point the finger when others do something remotely questionable, specially when you've never had to face the same circumstances. I stumbled across this link in my favorites and decided to pop in to see what Dooshie and Mickyhavelittle are bitchin about. Nothing has changed, Your all bitter at something so take it out on current affairs? Look at yourselves!

[40oz]

They were given an ultimatum, Money was set aside to rebuild that rat hole after we decimate it for harboring insurgents. In this unconventional war (much like vietnam) one cant tell a combatant form a noncombatant. They were told they had 24 hours to leave. ANYONE remaining will be considered hostile. Understandable, if troops stumbled upon a classroom full of children, they would not be considered hostile, yet we have the insight of the insurgents tactics, i.e. using a mosque for a fighting position knowing we are not to engage a house of worship, (which btw MM is clearly an abuse of the Geneva convention) When a group of men, in a Mosque (fighting position) are found to be hostile, after ignoring the ultimatum, after proving there cunning and willingness to kill themselves just to get one or two US soldiers are found, You have the nerve to question this mans actions? Its his life over there not yours or mine.

[humanhybrid]

I think it was smart to shoot him. And despite the negative feedback from the press, which seems to focus a lot on coalition "atrocities" (and overlook in terms of equal time those committed by terrorists), I think their coverage of this incident may be invaluable to coalition troops because it may make terrorists think twice before trying to fake surrender to trap our troops. Well Well, Lets see the equal nature. What is it that the patriot Iraqis have that the Americans dont? Would it be the state of the art military hardware? could it be the unlimited amount of money that our war mongering president gets from his flock. Or could it be the night vision and heat sensory technology. Well just what is it? As I see, it is a pathetic game of war much like hunting a helpless animal. Ya that animal will play possom, but the edge is the weopon that the hunter holds. Killing poor people gets you exited doesnt it? good day!

[dutchie]

I don't think you are qualified to say anything negative about Americas Military unless you have walked a mile in the boots of a US soldier at war, Dutchie. You like to sit back and Highbrow others and all you do is post here and talk shit about everyone and everything you can. get a life. It is very easy to say you would never have done the same thing, but then again you've never been there. So bottle up your BS and send it to the french. IRAN's NEXT!!

So I also would not qualify to say anything negative about SS troops in WWII, just because I haven't walked a mile in german boots?!? WTF?? That's one of the most arrogant self-righteous pompous remarks I've ever read in here!! Do you really think the US army should be given total diplomatic immunity, just because they're American?!? YOU get a life in stead of pouring your stupid verbal diarrhea over me. Post a valid argument, in stead of showing off your non-existent muscles. :2fu:

Your last remark about Iran proves beyond the shadow of a doubt you're in fact no better than the nazi soldiers mentioned above. What do want to do, nuke the hell out of all Iranis? Show 'em you've got balls?!? Take your macho dribble, bottle it and shove it up a place where the sun don't shine. And if you think you did in fact present an argument here, well it's as thin as the homeopathic soup one makes from the shadow of a chicken that died of starvation.

As for the wounded Iraqi shot dead - yeah, it was his fault he was still breathing... Stupid man, tsk tsk tsk - breathing... what a silly thing to do.
He was simply butchered off in cold blood. Don't give me that crap about conventional vs unconventional blah blah. Bureaucratic bullshit.

[40oz]

Typical bleeding heart liberal. Spare me the whine n just gimmie the cheese..
Your whity placement of words doesn't impress me, only shows your lengthy time spent posting instead of doing something "constructive" cause believe me, your postings are far from constructive. You seem to want to divert every other conversation between you an I to the "nazis". Simple question, If the US or any other "superpower" Oops, where it. Anyways if the US knew (somehow had the foresight) what the Nazis/Hitler would do before they ever got started. (Which I understand there is know way of knowing) then would you have supported an all out war with Germany before they reached that ultimate state of wickedness? If you say no then your no better then THEM (Your favored SS you so passionately refer every chance you can fit them in) And if you say yes then your a hypocrite. Choose the name you wish to be called from here on out. Are you a Nazi? Or hypocrite? We may have in effect put an end to "history repeating itself" I am appalled Saddam and his Barbarians made it as far as they did without intervention to be frank. What if your Prime minister, or queen or what ever it is you have over there behaved like Saddam, I bet you'd sing a different song then now wouldn't you? You words carry no weight and your full of manure. You are the type of person that would curse the Us for not helping, and in the same breath curse the US for helping "too much". In other words with you its damned if ya do and damned if ya don't. You cant please everyone and I'm sure no ones feelings are hurt that you don't "approve" of the soldiers defending his and his squads lives. If you had any discerning ability at all you would have heard the caution, concern, and surprise of this soldier when finding an insurgent (whether he was faking or not) playing possum. "This ones faking, his faking!" Split second decision, war is not a party nor is it pretty. The worse part of it all is if the make an example out of this marine due to public outcry. Via bleeding heart liberals, Saddam sympathizes, Anti war (pro nazi style dictatorship) Like our subject here (which yes, is you dooshie) then this poor guys gets reamed, not only that but the worse thing is now every soldier fighting in the war on terror, will second guess hisself for fear of punishment. Second guessing gets people killed. These guys have no choice they have to go if there told, I know I was one of them. Whether they agree or not. And yet you can find the time to sit here and judge anyone for doing what his or her country has called them to do is a complete reflection of your cowardice attitude.

[dutchie]

Ah, we have a grave digger on our hands....


Typical bleeding heart liberal. Spare me the whine n just gimmie the cheese..
Your whity placement of words doesn't impress me, only shows your lengthy time spent posting instead of doing something "constructive" cause believe me, your postings are far from constructive.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Did you find the spellchecker already? Because from YOUR lengthy post I get the impression you have found nothing constructive to do after you left kindergarten, at any rate - education was not among them.
"Whity"?? That's "WITTY", you dork! I am not racist.


You seem to want to divert every other conversation between you an I to the "nazis".Yeah... funny isn't it... and I wasn't even aware of that... I wonder....


Simple question, If the US or any other "superpower" Oops, where it. Anyways if the US knew (somehow had the foresight) what the Nazis/Hitler would do before they ever got started. (Which I understand there is know way of knowing) then would you have supported an all out war with Germany before they reached that ultimate state of wickedness?
...ehhr.. might be me, but where is the simple question here??
All I read is a lot of incoherent dribble. Please rewrite this part, because I'll be damned if I understand a word of it... Oh... I see.. Would I have supported a war against Germany if the US would have had some foreknowledge about its wickedness? Well, again it goes to show you did not pay attention to the teachers in elementary school (if you indeed ever visited it) because the US in fact DID have this knowledge. It took them more than 10 years to act...


If you say no then your no better then THEM (Your favored SS you so passionately refer every chance you can fit them in) And if you say yes then your a hypocrite. Choose the name you wish to be called from here on out. Are you a Nazi? Or hypocrite?Yes, your posts are truly constructive, 40oz.. I tip my hat to your obvious intelligence and insight.


We may have in effect put an end to "history repeating itself" I am appalled Saddam and his Barbarians made it as far as they did without intervention to be frank. What if your Prime minister, or queen or what ever it is you have over there behaved like Saddam, I bet you'd sing a different song then now wouldn't you?...no, you would not not know "whatever it is" we have here, now would you? In fact we have both. The rest of this sentence I'll ignore.


You words carry no weight and your full of manure. You are the type of person that would curse the Us for not helping, and in the same breath curse the US for helping "too much". In other words with you its damned if ya do and damned if ya don't. You cant please everyone and I'm sure no ones feelings are hurt that you don't "approve" of the soldiers defending his and his squads lives. If you had any discerning ability at all you would have heard the caution, concern, and surprise of this soldier when finding an insurgent (whether he was faking or not) playing possum. "This ones faking, his faking!" Split second decision, war is not a party nor is it pretty. The worse part of it all is if the make an example out of this marine due to public outcry. Via bleeding heart liberals, Saddam sympathizes, Anti war (pro nazi style dictatorship) Like our subject here (which yes, is you dooshie) then this poor guys gets reamed, not only that but the worse thing is now every soldier fighting in the war on terror, will second guess hisself for fear of punishment. Second guessing gets people killed. These guys have no choice they have to go if there told, I know I was one of them. Whether they agree or not. And yet you can find the time to sit here and judge anyone for doing what his or her country has called them to do is a complete reflection of your cowardice attitude.
Well, you've obviously walked a mile in those boots, now have you? Or...?

Wait, I have a better solution, that will spare all the lives of US troops: just 20 cannisters of sarin on Fallujah!! That will do the trick!! No US casualties, and all "terrorists" dead!! ..oh yeah, and "some" civilian casualties...nah... Serves those Iraqis right, living in Iraq like that... Which indeed reminds me of a certain group of people that influenced history some 60 years ago...

My point: you just wiped your muddy boots on the Geneva convention, and you're really convinced that's the JUST thing to do, because the Iraqis fight dirty in your opinion.. Ah... boohoo... Now who's whining?

[40oz]

So.. the US had the foreknowledge of the capabilities and agenda of the German Military, and.... it took 10 years to act on it huh? I guess it wasn't quick enough for you right? So there is your complaint when dealing with this scenario (history). But, I imagine if the US acted any sooner you would just turn the argument to, the US is a war mongering country. They had no right to intervene.
You have two faces dooshie and I see them both. Some people like to argue, bitch, whine, complain, find fault in, all that "higher than thou" attitude no matter what action the US takes.

[MetalMilitia]

I am appalled Saddam and his Barbarians made it as far as they did without intervention to be frank.

You probably are the type that see the terd floating in the punch bowl, but do or say nothing about it, and then take another sip.

Witnesses say US forces killed unarmed civilians

Allegations of widespread abuse by US forces in Fallujah, including the killing of unarmed civilians and the targeting of a hospital in an attack, have been made by people who have escaped from the city.

They said, in interviews with The Independent, that as well as deaths from bombs and artillery shells, a large number of people including children were killed by American snipers. US forces refused repeated calls for medical aid for injured civilians, they said.

Some of the killings took place in the build-up to the assault on the rebel stronghold, and at least in one case - that of the death of a family of seven, including a three-month baby - the American authorities have admitted responsibility and offered compensation.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=586045

-------------------------------------

Also, Shooting an unarmed wounded man in the head isnt just a breach, its disturbing. I don't care what tactics the enemy is using, if you break the laws you agreed to play by, you're no better than the person on the opposite side.. Widespread reports of civillians being targeted isnt something new, it's been going on since day 1. Which is probably why 14515 to 16673 civillians have been killed by our "intervention" and more than 100,000 people have died in Iraq since we took over. We have breaches in the geneva convention everywhere, from showing prisoners, to the abuse, to civillian casualties....

Iraq Body Count (IBC) website has published its analysis of the civilian dealth toll from the April 2004 siege of Falluja. This analysis leads to the conclusion that betweeen 572 and 616 of the approximately 800 reported deaths were of civilians, with over 300 of these being women and children. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/index.php#pr9 The IBC totals are based on multiply-cited reports from doctors and eyewitnesses that no less than 308 of those killed were women and children. This number demonstrates the huge impact of US attacks on civilian areas, and allows the conclusion to be drawn that many of the males killed must also have been non-combatants.

We are dealing with a code of conduct which emanates from the US occupation high command. The war is criminal and it instills criminality among occupation forces. The reasons for the invasion (ones that were banged into your head by the mainsream media) have been proven false.

This is only what the cameras have seen.
http://www.armageddononline.org/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1101117652&archive=&start_from=&ucat=11&

Don't worry, The president said months ago that "major combat operations have ended in Iraq."

[Rynotek]

It is being reported that Mujahideen control 60% of the city and US forces have not advanced since Sunday

http://trackingterrorism.com/Default.asp?dismode=article&artid=968

total number of wounded US troops stands at over 9000. 850+ alone wounded in the raid on Falluja.

this comes from a Chinese newspaper, so i know what you will be saying 40oz, gaddamn reds, never trust a word they say, shut up and eat your rice , etc, etc. but you wont expect UK or US news to report this. Its also pretty strange that the BBC have not reported from Falluja for 3 days as well. I would expect something from them, then again if you are western you gotta be imbedded....

[40oz]

Well its funny you say that, Just so happens I work in a facility that issues training aids for soldiers. Low and behold, the items we recieve that where "made in china" are wrong in one way or another. Perhaps they didnt know, or perhaps, in the event of war they wanted our guys to be 400 meters off when targeting there commy ass's due to a protractor being a 1/4 inch off.

[Havoc Angel]

Uhm, 40oz, have you never wondered why those things are imported from china when they pose such a *obvious* threat to the US army efficiency? Shouldn't they be made in the US instead to assure highest quality aiming aids? But of course those questions are irrelevant as i'm just some german nazi trying to plant the seed of doubt into your loyal mind, seeking to ultimately overthrow the cradle of free democracy.

[DontBeAfraid]

Lowest bid......

[Defiant Noquisi]

Well its funny you say that, Just so happens I work in a facility that issues training aids for soldiers. Low and behold, the items we recieve that where "made in china" are wrong in one way or another. Perhaps they didnt know, or perhaps, in the event of war they wanted our guys to be 400 meters off when targeting there commy ass's due to a protractor being a 1/4 inch off.WOW! How you could even admit that is beyond any reasonable comprehension!


Anti war (pro nazi style dictatorship)This statement should sum up for everyone the lack of brain matter being utilized by the person who posted it.

Not to mention using "dooshie". Typical schoolyard namecalling bs from someone lacking any reasonably educated vocabulary. If you want anyone reading your posts to view them as educational or even take them seriously you'll have to do much better than that. Provided you are capable of doing so. :bondage:

[40oz]

A long time member of the Dooshie fan club. What else would one expect. I am not here to make friends or have anyone "get meaning" out of anything I post. Only posting my opinion of the horse sh*t you anti Americans post. So allow me to Breakdown Into detail what is that I meant by the line, Anti war (pro nazi style dictatorship) I understand I probably didn't clarify, I simple meant that dooshie would be anti war even under a pro nazi style dictatorship. (Or would he?) I shall even supply you with a definition as to help you utilized more of your own brain matter so that in the coarse of calling someone stupid you don't inevitably fit the shoe.

parenthesis:
Either or both of the upright curved lines, ( ), used to mark off explanatory or qualifying remarks in writing or printing or enclose a sum, product, or other expression considered or treated as a collective entity in a mathematical operation.

A qualifying or amplifying word, phrase, or sentence inserted within written matter in such a way as to be independent of the surrounding grammatical structure.
A comment departing from the theme of discourse; a digression.
An interruption of continuity; an interval: “This is one of the things I wasn't prepared for the amount of unfilled time, the long parentheses of nothing” (Margaret Atwood).

Now, try and read it again, only this time don't bite off more then you can chew.

As, for how I could admit something beyond any reasonable comprehension! Its really very simple, I didn't make the rules where I work, I don't procure any items we have in stock for training purposes, I also don't agree with it. So, once again allow me to break this down for you so you don't twist it all up and fabricate what ever it is your pea brain desires. It is beyond me to do anything to rectify this situation.

I don't think it takes educated vocabulary to pervert dutchie to dooshie. I guess you are so educated you spend your free time here, instead of the education boards. Where your education can be appreciated. That has all the earmarks of genius.

I apologize for not being as educated and mature as you. I will try harder in the future. Please except my humble apology as I turn to the farmers almanac, encyclopedia, dictionary, and any other form of literature so as to edumacate my self so I can attain a level equal to yours. Perhaps then, we can post and understand one another and not become entangled in a verbal altercation that is fruitless and only makes one of us look like a dooshie puppet.

[Defiant Noquisi]

or have anyone "get meaning" out of anything I post.Then why bother posting? Feeling unimportant in other aspects? Or did the fact that utilizing this board to educate others completely escape you? You lay claim to intellect but fall short of proving it. Instead, the only thing you can prove is a crybaby mentality and shoot from the hip retorts when someone points out your ignorance.


Only posting my opinion of the horse sh*t you anti Americans post.Without seeing the resemblance in your own pile no doubt.


I shall even supply you with a definition as to help you utilized more of your own brain matter so that in the coarse of calling someone stupid you don't inevitably fit the shoe.Incredible, you post inflammatory bs and namecalling and then cry foul when the obvious is pointed out. Let me add immaturity to your list of defining characteristics.


Now, try and read it again, only this time don't bite off more then you can chew.And this means what? That ignorance deserves no response? Honestly, your posting reads "Someone get me some tissue, Im running out" more than coming close to mature reading. You might do well to justify your existance in healthier ways.


As, for how I could admit something beyond any reasonable comprehension! Its really very simple, I didn't make the rules where I work, I don't procure any items we have in stock for training purposes, I also don't agree with it.I see, so just working there and disagreeing is enough. You cant see the support you give by just being there. I get it. Kinda like the person who beats their spouse but it wasnt their fault because the spouse pissed them off.


So, once again allow me to break this down for you so you don't twist it all up and fabricate what ever it is your pea brain desires. It is beyond me to do anything to rectify this situation.Again, why post? If all of this is so above you then why jump right back into it? You cant escape it because you dont want to. It would just nag at you if you couldnt attempt to best someone even though you may use idiocy to do it. You fail to realize that posting inflammatory garbage will not make you look any more intelligent. Yet you cant resist.


I don't think it takes educated vocabulary to pervert dutchie to dooshie.Imagine that. The first three words sum it all up.


I guess you are so educated you spend your free time here, instead of the education boards. Where your education can be appreciated. That has all the earmarks of genius.And which boards might those be? I have to say that if the boards you mention have others of equal intelligence as you, I wont fail to miss them. Oh yes, and since you mentioned "genius" let me mention that you are the one who posted that you are not here to "have anyone "get meaning" out of anything I post". Why bother explaining? Have a need to justify your own absurdity?


Perhaps then, we can post and understand one another and not become entangled in a verbal altercation that is fruitless and only makes one of us look like a dooshie puppet.Again, more proof of your astounding intellect. :dork:

[lazserus]

The Geneva Convention was developed by the UN and all world leaders involved in the UN agreed to a form of "civilized" combat (I know it's an oxymoron). For half a century we've been, for the most part, following those rules set up. However, many nations have devised ways to get around the rules with out necessarily breaking them. I know one thing I've been taught in the military is rules of engagement and what can and can not be done legally. 40oz is right with his quotes from the Geneva Convention. If the enemy is not following the laws should we continue to? This is now a fight for survival. If we rise above them and follow the laws they break regularly we'll be annihilated. The terrorist nations don't care about western laws or our Geneva Convention and fight anyway they have to in order to survive. We could always rise above them and not break those laws (which aren't even applicable in this form of combat), but it means death because we are limited in our means of survival while the enemy is not.

The bad guys kill unarmed men, women, and children daily. I say fight fire with fire. One thing the ME has always prevailed in is using our western policies against us. Our "civilized" form of combat has been one of our greatest weaknesses in this war.

I would never condone shooting an unarmed man, but if I was on the battlefield I'd do anything necessary to get myself and my battle buddies home alive and in one piece. Once a soldier has been in the shit for so long there's no longer a fight for this cause or that cause. It's a fight for survival of yourself and the man next to you.

This doesn't apply to only US soldiers, but to all soldiers fighting the same fight.

[dutchie]

There is no reason to attack Dutchie for something you are incapable of understanding or learning.
Why warn 40oz, Micky? Please let us give 40oz total freedom of speech here - it's a freedom I do hold high. And - apart from that - it's been fun so far!


If the enemy is not following the laws should we continue to? This is now a fight for survival. If we rise above them and follow the laws they break regularly we'll be annihilated.
I can understand - and appreciate - that any American could think along the lines you wrote down, Laz. But the fact remains that conventions ONLY work when nations will stick to them. I think one of the reasons why people are offended by this shooting is because the US army lost a lot of credit already. Think of Abu Graib, for instance. Agreed - we are at war, the war against terrorism (at least, that's what I thought it was, last time I checked). Now I'm beginning to wonder to whom we are now begging to redirect this effort. Equalizing an entire city with the ground to capture a handful of troops that regard themselves to be "patriots" - is this still justifiable towards the whole of the Iraqi people? Isn't it true that this country is doomed to be ripped apart due to religious differences anyway, with or without the "aid" of our troops? How long are we planning to stay there? Indefinitely? And another thing - given the sheer humongous firepower that the USA has imported into Iraq, is it really amazing that these "patriot" Iraqis fight with all possible means they can dig up, including suicidal boobytrapping?
Like MetalMilitia said: the tactics chosen by one side can NEVER be the justification for the other side to stoop to the same level and lose all regards for human rights. Shooting a wounded, unarmed soldier (yes, in their eyes these guys are soldiers) is in no way justifiable.

Yes 40oz, I AM against war. War is the lowest of low levels humanity can sink to. There's nothing heroic or honorable about a war. Of course I can understand and even appreciate that a conflict can reach a point where no other option than an armed intervention is available. But fact remains that ANY armed intervention should be considered with much forethought and planning, with a keen eye towards the possible scenarios of the outcome. I have my doubts about this in the case of Iraq. The decision to invade Iraq was made based upon a wagonload of false arguments, with a few valid ones thrown in for good measure. The longer term consequences of this invasion haven't been taken in consideration - so much has become horribly clear. But comparing the scales of the death toll balance in this conflict should have you at least raise an eyebrow. I for one am not at all amazed by the aggressiveness of the insurgents. If you could (and I doubt this very much) bring yourself to lift the camera in this situation a few meters and take a long and unprejudiced look at it, you might be able to appreciate my stance in this a bit more, in stead of calling me silly names, and showing the whole board your inability to reason in a civilized manner. I am not at all offended by your attitude - IMO you're not worth the trouble to raise my blood pressure over. Now if you showed a willingness to listen to well presented and thought through arguments, and respond accordingly, you might eventually find yourself in a position where members of this forum respect your opinion, even if they differ very much from their own. I have a high regard for members such as Substand and Micky Doolittle, although I (very) seldomly agree with their political views. But politics is not the binding factor here - they are human beings just like you and me, and they love life and people around them. They have a deep need to share their thoughts and ideas with others. They're not JUST here to kick someone's arse.
Diminishing friendships among members to "fanclubs" shows adequately you're not ready yet to take your place among those members I talked about. I'd suggest you start by losing some of that hatred you obviously are well equipped with. Not the Iraqi insurgents, but THAT is your worst enemy.

[Havoc Angel]

Hmm...I wonder. Does the Geneva Convention still apply to the fighting in Iraq? As far as i know the US and Iraq are, officially, no longer at war but helping the Iraq administration in policing and pacifying of their country which would mean that national (iraq) laws, if there are any, are limiting the means of how this peacekeeping should be done.
But of course that only applies if the Geneva convention is limited to warfare between countries and not civil war. And even *if* it does apply to civil war too i don't know if the fighting in iraq is actually a official civil war.

Can anyone help to clarify this?

[40oz]

You people are warped, i understand you all get along with dutchie, I accept it and likewise accept I'll never get a fair shake here, but for fug sakes people. How can some one not take offense to some of this bs he types? No one says anything because they dont want the MickyMouseClub to pounce on em. Or maybe in agreement, or just plain ole dont give a shit. WELL Buuuullshit!

...."He's fucking faking he's dead" BANG!!!! "he's fucking dead now"....

Killing an unarmed, wounded man.

A heroic action by a real AMERICAn...
Hallelujah, only in Fallujah..

Some people would look at a rose, and admire its beauty. Whilst others would only note its flaws. Wear them shoes dutchie, you can say nothing wrong so long as your fan club backs you up.


What exactly would have made this guy a "real American Hero" in your eyes? If he had given this guy the benefit of the doubt and awarded this combatant to detonate a bomb or pull out an assault rifle and kill him a US Marine, or two. (Keep this in mind, this exact scenario has played out dozens of times thus far) What if the soldier had walked over to this wounded insurgent for any number of reasons and was killed? I can almost hear (serves him right) ringing in my ears. I am just trying to understand. Take your blinders off and see whats happening. Do me one favor and I will drop it like a bad habit, Explain to me what this Marine could/should have done? Then top it off with what YOU would have done. You talk the talk, walk it.



***BTW yes, I think it is fun as well.

What would make an old buzzard so Anti American?

[40oz]

Yes 40oz, I AM against war. War is the lowest of low levels humanity can sink to. There's nothing heroic or honorable about a war. Of course I can understand and even appreciate that a conflict can reach a point where no other option than an armed intervention is available. But fact remains that ANY armed intervention should be considered with much forethought and planning, with a keen eye towards the possible scenarios of the outcome. I have my doubts about this in the case of Iraq. The decision to invade Iraq was made based upon a wagonload of false arguments, with a few valid ones thrown in for good measure.

Absolutly, but I am sure you realize the actual ground force that are over there fighting did not wage war.. they are only following orders. I bet 3/4 of them (if not more) wouldnt be there if given the option. Not that they dont agree with it but no one wants war. So this poor guy is over there fighting for something he may not even understand, and trying to Stay Alive. In doing this he made a split second judgement call that (could have saved his own and other lives) the whole world now has the pleasure of viewing and talking about. It sounds to me like if it was the US Marine or the insurgent you would rather the insurgent come out on top, And that is unexceptable to me. Therefore I have to "try" and give you a rashing. Bottom line is It WAS not premeditated, It was not done "just cause" he can. I have a hard time thinking anyone of us would have done anything differently. GIVE the guy a break.

[DontBeAfraid]

He isnt anti american, Dutchie is anti-war..... MD is entertaining.... I am anti boredom.... You are off my ignore list.... And everybody gets the same shake....

You can say "if they do it we have to" from behind your computer but you arent the guy getting his head cut off because americans offended your captors relatives at abu grahb(sp)... And you arent the wounded guy getting shot because people who live near you set up boobie traps on dead bodies which ultimately killed US marines..... The rules were enumerated to prevent as much PERSONAL suffering as possible, wars are waged by politics and fought by people.... People deserve a fair shake when they are doing something that others are asking of them.

We are in no danger of losing this war. We are in no danger of being anihilated. If we are going to break the rules we might as well break them big and fast with a nuke.... This would save the PEOPLE on both sides from the trouble of fighting the politicians wars.

[40oz]

I am not prejudice, To sum it up "The enemies of my brothers and sisters are my enemies" A couple of points I want to make then I'll take my well deserved leave again. There is a definitive difference between holding someone for weeks and then murdering them on film, and making a split second decision. Ok, enough about that. When you dealing with an unconventional war such as this. You, me, the government, family members, doctors, lawyers, schoolmates. etc. etc...
Can not make a trustworthy or reliable call as to who is and who is not a combatant. Every so called civilian over there that have died due to this war (aside from all children and some of the women) May or may not have been an insurgent. There is no telling until that person is clearly defiant, aggressive, and the list goes on. I am not suggesting that everyone is an insurgent, and that we should just shoot em all and its ok, only that out troops have to take every precaution to ENSURE they are not "walking" into a trap. Abu Garab (or what ever) was an outrage. It did out troops no justice as they are not all like that. Our military has the stigma of being war mongers, and blood thirsty. It isn't true. Not a single US soldier has a say so when the war wheel is turning. "Pack your bags, Your going to IRAQ" Kiss the wife and kids goodbye and pray you make it back. The visual image of American soldiers in the movies (how they love being in the shit) is false for the most part. There are good soldiers that once being there do there job and do it well. THEY stay alive. Who in the right mind would want to go to a foreign country to kill or be killed?

I'm done, see ya in a few weeks.

[40oz]

Thank You, I... I think...

[DontBeAfraid]

You just explained why we have rules... Because its not the soldiers war and its unfair to punish them for the decisions of those in charge.

[dutchie]

You people are warped, i understand you all get along with dutchie, I accept it and likewise accept I'll never get a fair shake here, but for fug sakes people. How can some one not take offense to some of this bs he types? No one says anything because they dont want the MickyMouseClub to pounce on em. Or maybe in agreement, or just plain ole dont give a shit. WELL Buuuullshit!

...."He's fucking faking he's dead" BANG!!!! "he's fucking dead now"....

Killing an unarmed, wounded man.

A heroic action by a real AMERICAn...
Hallelujah, only in Fallujah..

Some people would look at a rose, and admire its beauty. Whilst others would only note its flaws. Wear them shoes dutchie, you can say nothing wrong so long as your fan club backs you up.


What exactly would have made this guy a "real American Hero" in your eyes? If he had given this guy the benefit of the doubt and awarded this combatant to detonate a bomb or pull out an assault rifle and kill him a US Marine, or two. (Keep this in mind, this exact scenario has played out dozens of times thus far) What if the soldier had walked over to this wounded insurgent for any number of reasons and was killed? I can almost hear (serves him right) ringing in my ears. I am just trying to understand. Take your blinders off and see whats happening. Do me one favor and I will drop it like a bad habit, Explain to me what this Marine could/should have done? Then top it off with what YOU would have done. You talk the talk, walk it.



***BTW yes, I think it is fun as well.

What would make an old buzzard so Anti American?
I rest my case entirely...

Bye, bye, 40oz. Do you always show people the soles of your shoes when the debate gets too hot for you?

[dutchie]

You can say "if they do it we have to" from behind your computer but you arent the guy getting his head cut off because americans offended your captors relatives at abu grahb(sp)... And you arent the wounded guy getting shot because people who live near you set up boobie traps on dead bodies which ultimately killed US marines..... The rules were enumerated to prevent as much PERSONAL suffering as possible, wars are waged by politics and fought by people.... People deserve a fair shake when they are doing something that others are asking of them.

We are in no danger of losing this war. We are in no danger of being anihilated. If we are going to break the rules we might as well break them big and fast with a nuke.... This would save the PEOPLE on both sides from the trouble of fighting the politicians wars.
My thoughts exactly. My my, again we agree, DBA.. this is getting boring...
Oh shit, and you're anti boredom....:wink:

[playmaker88]

I don't think it would be an overstatement to say that George W Bush underestimated the task that he committed his armed forces to in Iraq on a monumental scale.

Having witnessed the fairly swift victory that his father had attained in the conflict to liberate Kuwait, watching the famous Republican Guards head for home with their tails between their legs after being given more than a bloody nose, must have filled the present incumbent of the hot seat with pride.

However, removing an invading force (with the approval and assistance of the majority of the planet) is a world away from winning a battle for a whole country, which includes the hearts and minds of people who you have bombed with 'shock and awe', that are fed anti-western propoganda and are having to go without clean water, food, electricity and employment.

When their family members are ill, starving or have been maimed in a fire fight, their most pressing issue is just that, not some diposed bastard dictator and not some liberating force that promises much but deliver too little, too late, whether that be through fault of their own or not. These people are living to survive each day, nothing more.

No leader should enter a war without thorough thought of the consequences, this should include a worst case scenario. Whether GWB did it for his father, for the oil, for the rights of the Iraqi people or for the war on terror has become irrelevant at the moment. He has opened up a can of worms and has lost the lid. The whole situation is a mess and is not going to get resolved any time soon (if ever). The only thing that is going to occur in the near future is a whole lot more pain and a whole lot more suffering for allied combatants and their families, the people of Iraq and the aid workers throughout the Middle East.

No matter what your feelings, even if you were dead set against this thing at the start, don't treat your servicemen and women like second class citizens, these people signed up to fight for your freedom, if their mislead by their C-in-C it is no fault of their own. They are brave, they are honest and 99.999% are honourable people.

[40oz]

I rest my case entirely...

Bye, bye, 40oz. Do you always show people the soles of your shoes when the debate gets too hot for you?

I am a self admitted irrational debater, I plain am not good at it. You said it yourself I resort to adolescence. I simple cannot have a civilized disagreement, YET. I am trying though, I am learning. Until then, I'll do what I know how to, that is lash out at anything I take offense to. I would hope that by now we understand that.

[dutchie]

Well, admitting to that is the first step in the right direction, and there is no cynicism in that remark, I meant it. Just drop the namecalling and cheap shots, and you already did a second step. Just my € 0.02..

[40oz]

Trying.....

[Moishe3rd]

I am pro-War when it is called for.
War, or organized force for the purpose of asserting "your way of life" over "their way of life" is always justified when the alternative is annhilation by the opposing force.
All aggressive groups or cultures live by this philosophy, which is why they attack others in the first place.
I, of course, believe that the American Way of Life, as flawed as it may be, is a superior philosophy to the "Islamic Death Cult" way of life, or even the "Bored European Can't We All Just Surrender to Oblivion" way of life.

Fallujah is a fine example of a useful, extremely effective battle that will help Iraq in our struggle to help make it more in line with The American Way of Life.
It was a successful military operation. It removed very large quantities of munitions from enemy hands. It eliminated a secure base of operations. And, it eliminated several thousand foreign mercenary death cultists from taking part in the Iraqi political process.

As has been pointed out, the Geneva Convention was a useful agreement developed to regulate warfare between organized nation states.
Like the United Nations, it is not a useful agreement when the signatory, or non-signatory, parties are thugs; psychopaths; death cultists; secular inhumanists; or other warped and degenerated parties.
Virtually all violent actions taken by Arab and Muslim countries over the last fifty years have violated any semblance of the Geneva Accords or even of humanity.

As soldiers in Iraq are consistantly confronted with enemy death cultists faking surrender, death, wounds, etcetera, they have chosen the option of killing all of those who fight against them.
The alternative is their own deaths.
And, they do not seem to believe that their own death is worth paying lip service to a Geneva Convention that enemy terrorists violate deliberately and willfully.

[DontBeAfraid]

You dont know anything about europe do you?

[Defiant Noquisi]

make it more in line with The American Way of Life.For anyone wondering why there are freedom fighters as well as completely cowardly assholes commiting violent acts of murder, the answer is the above piece of Moishe's sentance. While WE may think that our way of life is better, their life and culture is completely different from ours. War has been a part of their culture for thousands of years. I totally agree that the throat slitting murderers deserve nothing more than to be put out but dont expect complete support from anyone else when the concept of democracy has never been within their grasp in the first place. People fear change, it doesnt matter what country or culture. Additionally, forcing anyone to completely change what theyve known all their life is a very frightening prospect. Force only brings more distrust and avoidance. If anyone tried forcing you to do something that was scary and unfamiliar how would you react? To top that, this is an entire country that has been taught that America sux, not just a single or few people. Its going to take a long time if ever for that attitude to change, especially with support waning and Iraqi's getting frustrated with the process.

[substand]

I don't think you are qualified to say anything negative about Americas Military unless you have walked a mile in the boots of a US soldier at war, Dutchie. You like to sit back and Highbrow others and all you do is post here and talk shit about everyone and everything you can. get a life. It is very easy to say you would never have done the same thing, but then again you've never been there. So bottle up your BS and send it to the french. IRAN's NEXT!!

I don't buy the "unqualified" option. We can all speak about it good or bad without having been there, IMO... but I thank you for your compliment!


The geneva convention does not account for "non Conventional" warfare. This is a very Unconventional war.

I had been wanting to hit on that point myself. I wonder if the geneva convention applies to these terrorists... they have no uniform, and they certainly do not follow the geneva convention. I don't want to drop to terrorists' levels, but if our enemy does not fight bound by these principles, is it wise for us to? I'm not talking about giving us the right to take over schools and use them as traps to kill innocents and blame it on the enemy, as the terrorists have done.... but killing a wounded man who is faking death, when it has been done before to kill soldiers, I think is an entirely different matter.



Well Well, Lets see the equal nature. What is it that the patriot Iraqis have that the Americans dont? Would it be the state of the art military hardware? could it be the unlimited amount of money that our war mongering president gets from his flock. Or could it be the night vision and heat sensory technology. Well just what is it?

patirots? if they were patriots they may try to hasten US withdrawal by helping end hostilities and participating in a democratically elected government so that the conditions for US withdrawal could be met.... not to mention than many of them are not Iraqis at all. Iraqi patriots should be fighting for a free and democratic Iraq, not AGAINST it. Plain and simple- these "patriot Iraqis" you mention are pro-Saddamization or pro-Islamist (not "ic"). They are terrorists who dont want to see a free Iraq- either they want Saddam's tyrranny or religious tyrrany, for their own benefit... neither of which are compatible with "patriotism." If they are patriots, let them lay down their arms and vote for a better Iraq....

And what else is it they have that we don't, as you so callously axe? How about the desire to harm completely innocent people by killing and beheading and disemboweling them? At least we are investigating our soldiers' "wrongdoing." They applaud theirs.


You are the type of person that would curse the Us for not helping, and in the same breath curse the US for helping "too much"

I haven't/don't see Dutchie being like that, personally.


this comes from a Chinese newspaper, so i know what you will be saying 40oz, gaddamn reds, never trust a word they say, shut up and eat your rice , etc, etc. but you wont expect UK or US news to report this.

Actually, I think there's ample evidence to sugguest that the US press would report it, if it were true, given that as a whole, they do not seem to be in support of the war, and have gleefully reported every death on the part of Americans, taking special interest in celebrating the 1000th dead American. And I would certainly expect the Chinese press to lie about it, considering there is ample evidence that they lie on just about anything the government sees fit to lie about.

[substand]

But the fact remains that conventions ONLY work when nations will stick to them.

Thats a good point, and the enemy has not stuck to them... so the conventions are not working... does that mean neccesarily that we should follow them or break them? No. Of course we should not nuke the place, use chem or bio weapons, or target innocents. We should continue to try our best to preserve innocent life in any and all ways we can. However, this guy was not an innocent, and he and his breathren have been using dirty tactics that break convention and have been used many times in the same way this guy appeared to be acting to kill coalition soldiers. That should be taken into account.


You people are warped, i understand you all get along with dutchie, I accept it and likewise accept I'll never get a fair shake here,

Our understanding that Dutchie has an opinion that he has a right to state and respecting that opinion and disagreeing with it respectfully does not mean that you will not get a fair shake. I must admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but it would seem to me that Dutchie has not been anti-American, and you have not been over the top.


Hmm...I wonder. Does the Geneva Convention still apply to the fighting in Iraq? As far as i know the US and Iraq are, officially, no longer at war but helping the Iraq administration in policing and pacifying of their country which would mean that national (iraq) laws, if there are any, are limiting the means of how this peacekeeping should be done.
But of course that only applies if the Geneva convention is limited to warfare between countries and not civil war. And even *if* it does apply to civil war too i don't know if the fighting in iraq is actually a official civil war.

Thats actually a very good point. We are currently there at the will of the Iraqi government, and I would like to know an answer to this as well.


For anyone wondering why there are freedom fighters

Ugh... calling them "insurgents" is getting close to the line, though not crossing it, since in fact they are "insurging." But "freedom fighters?" Come on. Its very clear that they are fighting against freedom, regardless of their own thoughts on the subject.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Ugh... calling them "insurgents" is getting close to the line, though not crossing it, since in fact they are "insurging." But "freedom fighters?" Come on. Its very clear that they are fighting against freedom, regardless of their own thoughts on the subject.


For anyone wondering why there are freedom fighters as well as completely cowardly assholes commiting violent acts of murder, I wouldnt exactly say that the new guard of Iraqi police would be considered "insurgents" while the actual insurgents are murdering them but I can see that I wasnt exactly clear in my opinion. I cut the sentance and I apologize.

However, from their viewpoint the insugents are freedom fighters and do not wish to be under an American sponsored government. They are fighting against what they consider American tyranny. As ambiguous and incorrectly posted as my statement was, it is still correct though not from an American viewpoint.

This is where cultural differences and under who's opinion they are "right" clash.

Still, one cant expect an entire country to suddenly give up what they know for something foreign to them and have everyone completely embrace it from the outset, which is what my post was about.

[dutchie]

I am pro-War when it is called for.
War, or organized force for the purpose of asserting "your way of life" over "their way of life" is always justified when the alternative is annhilation by the opposing force.
All aggressive groups or cultures live by this philosophy, which is why they attack others in the first place.
I, of course, believe that the American Way of Life, as flawed as it may be, is a superior philosophy to the "Islamic Death Cult" way of life, or even the "Bored European Can't We All Just Surrender to Oblivion" way of life.

Fallujah is a fine example of a useful, extremely effective battle that will help Iraq in our struggle to help make it more in line with The American Way of Life.
It was a successful military operation. It removed very large quantities of munitions from enemy hands. It eliminated a secure base of operations. And, it eliminated several thousand foreign mercenary death cultists from taking part in the Iraqi political process.

As has been pointed out, the Geneva Convention was a useful agreement developed to regulate warfare between organized nation states.
Like the United Nations, it is not a useful agreement when the signatory, or non-signatory, parties are thugs; psychopaths; death cultists; secular inhumanists; or other warped and degenerated parties.
Virtually all violent actions taken by Arab and Muslim countries over the last fifty years have violated any semblance of the Geneva Accords or even of humanity.

As soldiers in Iraq are consistantly confronted with enemy death cultists faking surrender, death, wounds, etcetera, they have chosen the option of killing all of those who fight against them.
The alternative is their own deaths.
And, they do not seem to believe that their own death is worth paying lip service to a Geneva Convention that enemy terrorists violate deliberately and willfully.
DBA's right. You do know nothing about Europe (Yurop, if that makes more sense to you). In my book you're beginning to fit the picture of a rightwing extremist. Not really dangerous yet, but suspiciously close...

[dutchie]

Geneva convention... Yeah sure...

Just read this (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html) on Armageddon Online Homepage...

FALLUJAH NAPALMED
Nov 28 2004


US uses banned weapon ..but was Tony Blair told?

By Paul Gilfeather Political Editor


US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.

News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.

And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it. Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel bonds flames to flesh.

Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons one of the world's most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP Alice Mahon said: "I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: 'Did we know about this hideous weapon's use in Iraq?'"

Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of "melted" corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries.

Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq.

A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world.

America, which didn't ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon.
Looks like the US happily accepted my suggestion... Only they did not use sarin (too humane, probably) but napalm...

As Matt said: To me, it seems like the only one in this 'war' using weapons of mass destruction is the US.

[MetalMilitia]

Aw yer too kind...

A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians... and you can't tell me that we didn't hit any 'civillians' while using it.

This isnt the first report, and it won't be the last. The problem is, no one (mainstream) was carrying the story. Finally a non-kooky news site reported that the US had in fact used NAPALM in Fallujah. Governments should be shocked, and even outraged.

This one weapon is far worse than anything we've found in Iraq.... and we're the ones using it.

-MM- :crs:

[dutchie]

Ah, Matt - but did you not forget??
- this is not a conventional war;
- the USA is not bound by UN conventions.
Two very valid arguments FOR the use of napalm!! :Bott:

[MetalMilitia]

Let's just nuke 'em and turn the desert into a glass parking lot.

[playmaker88]

Believe it or not, that is not the first time that has been suggested on AO forums MM, maybe the first time in true jest though? How far down the line do we think it would have to go to reach that stage? I think they're only used when only one country on the planet has the capability, once others have them, it gets a bit risky. :bubble:

[MetalMilitia]

I was being cynical.

I guess no one cares that by using napalm we're using a far worse weapon then they have ever used, and might I add, even HAD IN THEIR POSESSION at any time.

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/pictures/KimPhuk-napalm-girl.jpg

That's why. A little girl running after being Napalmed - the jellied napalm searing her skin.

I can't beleive after Vietnam we would go back to using such a terrible weapon.

[playmaker88]

I was being cynical.

Yeah, apologies MM, that was how I read it. My use of the word "jest" was a bad choice, I was basically trying to make out that you were using it to be critical of the action taken, while others on here have previously suggested it as a 'clean-up' operation.


I guess no one cares that by using napalm we're using a far worse weapon then they have ever used, and might I add, even HAD IN THEIR POSESSION at any time.

I can't beleive after Vietnam we would go back to using such a terrible weapon.

The whole thing would suggest a level of desperation creeping in. The original suggestion was that the Iraqis have these illegal weapons and want to use them, now it seems the Americans have these illegal weapons and are actually using them. If true it would seem like an ND into the foot.

[Moishe3rd]

You dont know anything about europe do you?
Educate me, by all means.
Give me a brief description of European values; or morals; or even the simple strivings and desires that Europeans believe are aspirations.
Anything?

[dutchie]

DBA reacted to your
or even the "Bored European Can't We All Just Surrender to Oblivion" way of life" statement.

This proves you do indeed know nothing about Europe, nor Europeans for that matter.

We could explain this, but you won't listen anyway, so why bother?

[lotrfan55345]

Here are some Iraqi's the BBC interviewed to be on a blog and see their viewpoint on how it's been since the inva...liberation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2004/iraq_log/default.stm

[substand]

MM, you should be ashamed of yourself posting kiddie porn on these otherwise clean message boards.

[dutchie]

Shit, that remark is too cynical even for me....

A bit tasteless, subs...

[substand]

Shit, that remark is too cynical even for me....
A bit tasteless, subs...

i often deal with trauma like that. i didn't even think about it. sorry.

in a related story MM, maybe no one mainstream is reporting the use of napalm because there is no use of it...

[MetalMilitia]

So the sun, the baltimore times, the sundaymirror... etc were all lying?

Even if it isn't true, you can't deny we're the ones using the "weapons of moderate" destruction against them. Shit, we've used more than 240,000 cluster bombs ( organisations want cluster bombs banned because their hundreds of grenade-like explosives scatter as far as half a kilometre, sometimes over urban areas where they can lie undisturbed for years and then explode ) , all sorts of bunker buster bombs, not to mention the fact that theres DU (Depleted Uranium) from anti-tank shells left over from the gulf war.

Americans were repeatedly and grimly warned of Iraqi made "mushroom clouds" ( http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/ ) over Your Town, USA, and how Hussein's unmanned drones ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62442-2004Sep4.html ) threatened us all. They didn't have 'em.

Who has the weapons of 'actual' mass destruction?

... why don't we take the time to peek at the gifts for Iraq... being that it's Christmas time and all...

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0450/mondo1.php

Merry X-Mas

[substand]

I don't care that we have WMD, MM. I don't think its wrong for countries to have WMD. What I fear is rogue nations run by tyrants having and using WMD or giving it to their terrorist friends, when they had previously agreed to not have them, and continued to develop them in secrecy.

[MetalMilitia]

I don't care that we have WMD, MM. I don't think its wrong for countries to have WMD.
Heh, Well put.

What I fear is rogue nations run by tyrants having and using WMD
Ya know theres another little country over there that has never disclosed their NUCLEAR weapons or arsenal... maybe we shouldnt have double standards.

My whole point was that we're using weapons far worse than some of the stuff we claimed they had, and far worse than anything they've ever used on us. Nothing more nothing less.

[dutchie]

...rogue nations run by tyrants having and using WMD or giving it to their terrorist friends...
Like the weapons the USA initially sold to Saddam??

[DontBeAfraid]

We arent a rogue nation dutchie... we work hand in hand with the UN..... no wait, I mean haliburt..... No thats not a country.... I forget who but we work with somebody.....




oh ya, the christian god. So there!

[dutchie]

What do you guys pay to the christian god, for services rendered?

[DontBeAfraid]

Babies..... And puppies too I think.

[substand]

Like the weapons the USA initially sold to Saddam??

Yes, very similar to some of those. If we want to be technical, I think we just sold ingredients of WMD... but there's no need to be pedantic.

[MetalMilitia]

Yes it's true. We put the guy in power (cia covert operations no doubt) and the let em run wild for 2 decades. ( the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene. ) Thats why the situation is so fucked up, and why he will likely never get to trial (alive). THE US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction. PEOPLE FORGET THIS EVERY DAY.

Why won't he get to trial? He're a quick history lesson, which is just the basics. We put the guy there, and supported him almost all the way up until he invaded Kuwait. Every form of weapons technology he had, or may have had, came from the US or one of his former allies. He didn't expand upon it, and wasn't nearly the threat we said he was.... he hadn't been prolific with his knowledge. You honestly think the fact we gave him all this stuff wouldn't come up in his trial? Yer a fuckin' looney toon if you think it wouldn't. No one wants him running his mouth, and honestly, he has every right to say WHERE the technology came from.

We gave him the stuff.... Then we turn around and invade becuase he has it. What Bush logic.... Notice they are, as of today, charging him with all the stuff from 1993 and before. What happened to his WMD's, unmanned drones, and "nookular" weapons?

[Havoc Angel]

Not only the US sold weapons tech to saddam, also some europe countries like france and germany sold tech, too. I bet those cases will come up in the trial whereas the US part will be forgotten or become a mere side note. Why should the US take responsibility for something when there are such convenient scapegoats to blame?

[substand]

Every form of weapons technology he had, or may have had, came from the US or one of his former allies.

Most of it came from Russia, I beleive.


PEOPLE FORGET THIS EVERY DAY.

No one forgets it. Its irrelevant. Situations change, and that was one that changed. We used to be enemies with Germany. Now we are not. There used to be a USSR. Now there is not. Once we felt that Iran should not take our people hostage, and Saddam hated them too. Sometimes you do business with unsavory types because it appears to be the best option available to you with the least cost in blood and treasure.

It makes no difference who sold or gave him weapons. After he invaded Kuwait his army was decimated and he was lucky to still have his country. In fact, he thought of it as and spun it as a victory. After ceasefire, as a condition of peace he was not allowed to have, and agreed not to have (and allow verification of this) WMD, among other things. He did not live up to his side of the agreement, pure and simple.

Even if in your mind (or others) it DOES matter who gave him the weapons, then I think it's safe to say that giving the man the weapons was a mistake. Would it be more prudent to just continue the mistake you made, or to correct it? And now we see that it doesn't matter, unless you think it is wise to make the mistake of giving weapons to Saddam... and I suppose if you think that, then you would also support his release and reinstatement as Dictator of Iraq... and if you support that, we have nothing to argue about.


US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear

I don't beleive we gave him nuclear capability. In fact, his first nuke ambitions was a plant by the French (if I remember correctly) that Israel destroyed. Then he went covert with his nuke program, intentially doing it the most difficult way, which no one thought anyone would use, therefore it could remain secret longer. The result was that after the first Gulf War, we were all surprised at how much closer he was to making a nuclear weapon than anyone thought. So he did "expand upon it," contrary to what you said that "He didn't expand upon it." He also expanded upon the SCUDs Russia had sold to him, and probably many other weapons as well.


We gave him the stuff.... Then we turn around and invade becuase he has it. What Bush logic.... Notice they are, as of today, charging him with all the stuff from 1993 and before. What happened to his WMD's, unmanned drones, and "nookular" weapons?

Again, situations change. I would like to know what happened to his WMDs as well. There's just too much intel from around the entire world (ie, not just GB and US) that says he had it. Then there was the "discovery of two mobile laboratories designed to produce biological and chemical agents capable of causing mass hysteria and death in any city in the world. " that we forget about, among other peices of evidence that make a strong circumstantial case ... just no outright large caches of WMDs.


I bet those cases will come up in the trial whereas the US part will be forgotten or become a mere side note.

If they come up in the trial, so will the others. The US part will become a mere side note compared to France and Germany because France and Germany were giving aid to our enemy, after he had become our enemy... that's something friends don't typically do, and as such, it will likely be highlighted as backstabbing.

[edit: added some clarification/sentances here and there]