If God knows everything how do we have free will? [Archive]

armageddononline

Jul 30th, 2003, 2:27 PM

EdgeCrusher666

Jul 31st, 2003, 4:32 AM

if god exists there are a few possiblities

1 he (ie it) has a bad case of multiple personallities

2 he is not all knowing and perfect

3 we do not exist (seeing as it is impossible for anyone to prvoe their own existience) but are just voices inside the head of someone or somethig that is a manic depressive who thinks it is perfect

evilwill88

Jul 31st, 2003, 6:40 AM

what makes you think god exists? And that if he does that he would know everything?

mr forelander

Aug 2nd, 2003, 4:32 AM

why the fvck was my original post deleted? it was perfectly relevant. didn't you like my free thinking ability?

well i'll say it again. santa claus is designed to keep children in line by parents, god is designed to keep man in place by leaders, or those who crave power. they are both figments of control in our imaginations.

evilwill88

Aug 2nd, 2003, 9:40 AM

the mods on this site are obviously insane. Just because come onto this board and argue a non believer point of view you have to ban us and delete our posts.

Your minds have obviously been tainted by christianity.

armageddononline

Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:03 AM

In case you hadn't noticed there are hundreds of posts on this forum from non-believers. DBA is one of our biggest members and he spends most of his time here arguing with me about whether there's a God. Also, none of the mods are Christian, or religious at all.

abady

Aug 2nd, 2003, 6:28 PM

Yes God knows whats to happen and yes you have a freewell! How? here's an example:

IF your a teacher and have 2 students (x and y) one of them is really bad and the other is really good and, assuming you were watching these two guys all along. and now is the time to test them.

you wrote on a paper that that X will fail and Y will pass b4 the test. And it actually happens.... does X have the right to question your prior knowledge that he will fail?

We beleive that God's knowledge is old, and is not directive. He just knows the conclusion, but you don't, and its always up to you to eat if you feel hungry isnt that right?

Jet

Aug 2nd, 2003, 7:18 PM

I'm sure that we are left to our own devices on earth so we can develop and grow and that is why we have free will and that is how god or whatever you want to call him/her/it wanted it.

evilwill88

Aug 3rd, 2003, 4:34 AM

if there is a god....... i honestly don't think the human race has turned out to be what it wanted. We kill eachother, we destroy the planet, we kill other living beings.

When you look at the human race we are not an ideal species.

Josh Frappier

Aug 5th, 2003, 3:21 PM

Here's how I see it: (Assuming there is a god.)

It can see an infinite number of possibilities and outcomes, but cannot (or, rather, chooses not to) know or control which outcome will be chosen.

terminatordrei

Aug 5th, 2003, 6:09 PM

I agree with Josh Frappier. That's kind of how I view it.
God knows what is going to happen for every choice you have when having to make a decision in life. What He does not know is what your choices will be.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 5th, 2003, 8:30 PM

then this god is not omniscient

evilwill88

Aug 6th, 2003, 6:48 AM

if god knows what is going to happen then why doesn't he prevent wars, masacres etc..........

cheese jatz

Aug 6th, 2003, 7:50 AM

Why should God prevent wars and massacres when it is humans that start them? Why should God interfere? There are probably reasons why we don't get any help and that is because we are suppose to help ourselves. |I :o

terminatordrei

Aug 6th, 2003, 12:20 PM

No, that does make Him omniscient. When you think about it, if God knows everything ,but at the same time chose to give humans free will and to not interfere in our decisions, He is just testing us, the imperfect ones, to see how many of us will choose Him without having tangible proof of His Existance. This only shows how inferior we are compared to God:smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

evilwill88

Aug 7th, 2003, 3:38 AM

You can't compare god to us when you have no proof of his existence or no knowledge of him.

So he is testing to see who is gullable.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 7th, 2003, 4:19 AM

maybe you dont know what omniscient means term.

If this god does not know what choices we will make then it is not omniscient. It doesnt know everything.

If this god does know what choices we will make then we dont have true free will. We WILL make the choices it knows we will make. We have the illusion of free will in this case but not true free will.

terminatordrei

Aug 7th, 2003, 10:18 AM

Ok, then let's say God knows everything except the choices we'll make therefore he is not omniscient.However, I still believe God chose it to be that way.

I'm not telling you to believe in a supreme being if you do not want to so don't get mad at me:mad: :mad: :mad:

lazserus

Aug 7th, 2003, 4:09 PM

This is actually a good question. If a god exists that follows the guidelines the Christians have given it, then we do not have free will.

If this god were to be "in the know" of the beginning and the end, then it must know the future. In order to know the future there must already be a predetermined future. If there's a predetermined future, then this god made it so. If this god made it so, then we are merely slaves to its twisted game, our every movement, thought, and action precalculated to the finest of detail.

What most fundamentalist Christians don't realize is that their blind devotion to the word read from a book that's been changed hundreds of times over the centuries by man has caused them to lose all sense of logic and rational thinking. You can't argue with a fundamentalist. They believe with out a reasonable doubt everything they have read and refuse to open their eyes to any form of rational thinking or behavior. I'm not saying all Christians are this way, just the gung-ho ones.

If there is a god out there, it's more than likely a case where it created the universe with a set of rules to govern it and does not intervene. Intervention would contradict its very existence and then prove itself not to exist. We have obviously observed in our existence that the universe and nature abides by a very large amount of strict laws. We have a very basic understanding of these laws. Now, deducting what we know, matter exists within the universe due to a form of disorder called entropy. Because matter was not evenly distributed through out the universe, we have clumps of matter which create stars, galaxies, planets, and life. In order to create such complex order through disorder, this god would have to be perfect, flawless. If it were to intervene it would break its own set of laws, proving to us that it is in fact NOT perfect. It creates a paradox for which it can not break free from and never was.

This is a very abstract style of thinking, but it makes sense upstairs.

JuggaloXIII

Aug 16th, 2003, 11:22 AM

How to start...let's see. Some of you have said that because God knows everything you will do in the future, that means you don't have free will. That argument could hold water if the world was perfect. But it's not, so thus, free will exists. How could I reach such a conclusion? Glad you asked. If God did not give us free will, that means whatever He said or whatever he told us would be done without question or a second thought. However, since we all live in an imperfect world, that suggests that we DO have free will. Murder, theft, rape, etc. would never exist in a world without free will because these are things God does not want us to do. God gives advice on how to choose, and that's it. If he controlled our very thoughts and actions, we would choose His way everytime, because He is making the choice for us. So free will is being able to make a choice, either for good and what God wants, or to choose evil, to defy God's will. He knows what choice we will make beforehand and we don't. How this can be construed as a lack of free will is beyond me. We can't see what will come in the future, what choices we have to make. But we still make those choices, good or evil, and that is the very core of free will.

armageddononline

Aug 17th, 2003, 3:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>He knows what choice we will make beforehand and we don't. How this can be construed as a lack of free will is beyond me. [/quote] Throw a ball up in the air and it will come down. You know that for a fact, so it isn't very interesting. The ball has no choice in what it will do because there is no choice: what will happen is certain.

Now God makes a universe. He knows for a fact that there will be serial killers, rapists and terrorists. He knows they will choose to kill and to rape. How do they have any more choice than the ball? And why should making such a universe, where every choice is certain, interest God any more than throwing a ball would interest me?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>That argument could hold water if the world was perfect. But it's not, so thus, free will exists.[/quote] How could a perfect God create an imperfect world?

Hunkorverythin

Aug 17th, 2003, 4:29 PM

How could a perfect God create an imperfect world? The world is perfect, the people are not. If you throw a ball and the dog gets it, it was mean't to be.:)
If God created the universe then he probably did know that earth would have a mixed bag of people, good and bad. God probably gave us free will so that we could have a series of choices to make. If earth was on the bottom of a ladder and God created worlds within worlds, the higher up the ladder you climb, the easier your life becomes because you would have obtained a certain amount of knowledge. It was suppose to be this way and if it is the case, it is perfect because it is how it is meant to be. We should be happy that we have free will. God probably does know the outcome of the decisions we make, and there is probably a list of ways we can go. God supposed to know everything so why create a being that is imperfect? Maybe to watch it become perfect like a seed that sprouts into a plant. Maybe we are not imperfect, just on a low level.

armageddononline

Aug 17th, 2003, 5:07 PM

God created us, we are not perfect therefore God is not perfect QED.

Why would Goid want imperfection if it was in his power not to have it? Why not give us the impression of freewill but make it so we are permanently happy?

steven marshall

Aug 19th, 2003, 4:24 PM

You will not find much in the Bible about "free will".

God has never offered it. If you follow Jesus you will be saved and go to heaven. If you reject him you will go to hell.

Where is the free will in that?

I choose a blue car instead of a red one. Thats free will because it really doesn't matter. God does give us freedom to chose certain things, but not in regard to His son.

I admit that church teaching can be decieving in this area. I don't believe in glossing my faith with marketting hype. It's a raw, tough, hard way to follow Jesus. But its the only way. It is very rewarding though.

armageddononline

Aug 19th, 2003, 5:08 PM

Why would God want a world in which everyone believed in him because they were afraid to go to hell? Did he just create al of us so that we would be forced to believe in him?

JuggaloXIII

Aug 20th, 2003, 12:32 PM

How could a perfect God create an imperfect world? An imperfect question, if you ask me, and the battle cry of every person who stands against God, it seems. How many of us were there at creation? None. Creation was perfect. God made us in His image, he did not make us as He is, so therein lies the answer. Everyday, we say something about the 'perfect crime' or the 'perfect invention' and what have you. So how could an imperfect person commit the 'perfect crime', one that is never solved? Because we were given that free will, we are capable of doing things even God cannot. Ah ha! So how can God be perfect if He can't do things that we can, you might say. God can't lie and we can, for instance. But a lie is nothing more than a falsehood trying to present itself as truth. The lie is imperfect, and therefore can't be commited by God. God cannot punish us for our wrongdoings now. He has promised a time for that in the end. If he lied and started punishing us for our transgression, He would cease to be a perfect god, now wouldn't he? Yes. We make the choices on earth, He makes the choices in heaven and the spiritual realm. Just because bad things happen now doesn't mean He isn't there, hoping you will once again turn towards Him and ask Him to help you, and it doesn't mean He is imperfect. Like I said, we were created in His image, not to be gods ourselves. So to assume we have one inkling of what perfection really is, well, that is just prideful arrogance. We have no concept of perfection. If we did, would the world be in the shape its in? No. That's the truth. We aren't gods, we are children who want to be gods, so we won't have to listen to God, and who can question His every little step if we don't like how our lives are going. Gotta love that free will.

lazserus

Aug 20th, 2003, 2:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why would God want a world in which everyone believed in him because they were afraid to go to hell?[/quote]
No kidding. Isn't that a tyrannical trait?

Wow, what a compassionate tyrant, this God.

steven marshall

Aug 20th, 2003, 4:56 PM

You will never be born again through a fear of going to hell. The teaching on hell is more for the christian than the unbeliever: to help them see the urgency of the work which God is calling them to.

How can you shout to a non-believer "get saved or face hell" when they haven't even grasped God, let alone hell.

A non-believer is unlikely to truly understand or believe in hell because the revelation of hell can only be given through the Holy Spirit.

There are many wonderful truths that I have received from God by The Holy Spirit, but that was one which I could have done without.

mickydoolittle

Aug 20th, 2003, 9:50 PM

By this I want to read what you think hell is and what purpose you think hell serves.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

dutchie

Aug 21st, 2003, 8:46 AM

hell is an invention.
i admit: a clever invention and craftfully manufactured, but still, an invention.
it was invented with the same intention as all inventions: to take money off the ignorant and less intelligent and put it in the pockets of the churchleaders, be it christian, hindu, buddhist or whathaveyou.

atthedoor

Aug 21st, 2003, 9:21 AM

the car is an invention to and every day millions of people climb into one and take a ride ,just like hell..0] 0] 0]

mickydoolittle

Aug 21st, 2003, 5:21 PM

Your post is totally laughable.:evil: :rolleyes: :evil:

laughable.
-MD-

Cristos

Aug 21st, 2003, 10:22 PM

Does the fact that God knows how the story ends yet we still have free will confuse you? What's the problem? It's kinda like a book you've already read, the characters have no idea what happens on the next page, yet you do, because you have finished the story. The character on page 50 has no clue what choices he will make and what the consequences of those choices will be until ten chapters later, maybe not even until the next book in the series comes out. You know, so you are, in essence, god compared to that character. You don't know what choices you will make until that moment, and you sure as hell don't know what the effects of those choices will be. Sometimes you don't even know until your death. Now how God knows what choices you make removes the decision from our hands is absurd. If He makes you choose something, then you lost free will. Until then, accept the responsibility for those choices you make.
And just how in the name of Pete does this conversation have anything to do with the perfectness of God's being? He gave us a gift, we used it to defy Him nine tenths of the time. Doesn't mean He is less than perfect, it means we are. And please, don't spout that nonsense of something perfect cannot create something imperfect. You ever notice its just the human race thats all srewed up and we're taking the planet with us? If God was so imperfect, the whole world's ecosystem would've collapsed by now, animals killing each other for their furs and engaging in sodomy. We aren't gods, just made in the same model number as His own form. Good thing too, I can imagine how many people would misuse such power, myself included. :lol:

dutchie

Aug 22nd, 2003, 8:00 AM

Cristos??? Is this your name? And if it isn't, why do you use it?

Anyway: the idea that God knows everything, and therefore it doesn't matter what you decide: He'd allready know is a paradox that has been discussed since the dawning of christianity. It is another pungent example (like the schism in church around the question if Adam had nipples and a navel or not) of the love christians have for absolutely futile issues.

WHO CARES!! Your life is yours, and your decisions are yours, it's all you own responsability and the outcome of your actions are decided by
-you
-coincidence

AMEN!

lazserus

Aug 22nd, 2003, 8:48 AM

I'm following dutchie's line of thought here. He hit the nail right on the head.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It's kinda like a book you've already read, the characters have no idea what happens on the next page, yet you do, because you have finished the story. [/quote]

This is a horrible example, because it does not include free will. The analogy practically states that your book is already written and that no matter what you're thinking on page 50, page 100 is already written! This would give the ILLUSION of free will, but not free will itself. I'd rather know I'm a slave than have the illusion that I'm not.

The holy Bible should never be taken literally. It is a guide, nothing more. Those who interpret the Bible literally are those who can not think for themselves and are with out logic or reason.

It is in our nature to question things, not to blindly follow. If that weren't the case, the world would still be flat.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 22nd, 2003, 3:21 PM

Like you said cristos. If god knows everything then this is like a book. Do characters in a book have freewill? No. you can read the book a million times and they will do the SAME thing everytime. That is not freewill at all.

Cristos freewill is a concept mutually exclusive to the concept of a device that knows the future. If the future can change it isnt known, If it can not change from what is known then there is no freewill.

steven marshall

Aug 22nd, 2003, 4:01 PM

Micky,

To understand the enormity and preciousness of what Jesus accomplished on the cross, there is a need to appreciate exactly what He has saved us from: an eternity spent without God in hell.

Purpose of hell:

I do not fully know the answer. Let me not try not to be too smart on this one.

God has so deemed it that all sin must be atoned for. This is linked to justice. Imagine a balance weigh scale. If we sin, the scales goes down on one side. Now Jesus has the power to forgive sin. If you accept Jesus as your saviour in faith, the act of the cross is sufficient to atone for your sin. Hence the balance becomes straight again. If however you do not accept Christ ie. reject him, then the scales remains down and this has to be redressed by Gods justice - that is punishing the unbeliever in hell.

In many aspects a human can understand Gods ways (since we were made in His image), yet there are some of his ways that we cannot understand, and hell for me is one of them.

God is love, He wants to pour out His love to a believing generation. But He will not compromise on His word. We must believe in faith. There is no other way to feel His love (through the Holy Spirit).

mickydoolittle

Aug 22nd, 2003, 7:01 PM

"an eternity spent without God in hell"

See, your god is totally focused on itself. It wants to shun humanity and keep us away from it. It created us, yet doesn't want us if we don't do what it commands.

Funny thing about that is this: In most civilized societies, we punish those mothers/fathers who do that very thing to their children via jail time or death. So where is the accountability for it (god)? A non-civil god. . .*gasp*

Face it, you believe in a tradition. Nothing more.
"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

PS: I don't expect a rational or intelligent response to this rebuttal since you quote scripture which is outdated and long since served what little purpose it had, and I expect more of the 'detesting' and 'fitful' posts for which you are widely known to write.

evilwill88

Aug 22nd, 2003, 8:48 PM

Jesus didn't accomplish anything on the cross accept dying. (assumung that he existed in the first place.) You go on about how he saved humanity..... prove it! There isn't one scrap of evidence that he did any good for anyone by getting himself killed.

Assuming that hell exists.... God has no authority over it. The ruler of hell is apparently, Lucifer. Why would he want to punish the people that God doesn't like? Being an enemy of God, it would make more sense for Lucifer to reward those he don't go to heaven.

You see..... there is no logic in christian teachings. They don't even no the meaning of the word 'logic'.

lazserus

Aug 22nd, 2003, 10:01 PM

I'm going to back you up here a little Will. Yes, the Christian teachings are full of ignored flaws and paradoxes. There is also an absence of logic.

Yet, be careful with the "prove it" attitude. For that which we can not prove, must exist in entirety.

6billioncounting

Aug 23rd, 2003, 8:37 AM

you prove you little of what the Bible says about hell or Lucifer.. one needs read it before they post about it intelligently..<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D"> 0] 0] 0]

lazserus

Aug 23rd, 2003, 9:22 AM

I wouldn't personally classify the Bible as intelligent reading.

atthedoor

Aug 23rd, 2003, 3:17 PM

14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

evilwill88

Aug 23rd, 2003, 8:35 PM

I admit that I haven't read the bible..... maybe one day I'll get around to it...... but for now.... my general knowledge shall suffice....

dutchie

Aug 25th, 2003, 6:47 AM

Let me get back to Steven marshall's post, because this is a message you often hear out of the mouth of orthodox christians, and it proves their need for a binary God: let's call it the God-computer.

So it's a simple set of rules:
- God condemns sin and punishes it with eternal death, hell,
separation from God, or whatever you choose to call it.
- If you believe that Jesus took the punisment for your sins,
God will not punish you.

This means God has the rigidity of a brick: it's either 0 or 1, win or lose. Now Steven tells us that God created us after his own image: meaning that we are equipped with the very same rigidity. You sin and do not believe: you're doomed. You sin and believe: jackpot, you're saved!
What about: you sin, but live in the blackest black of Borneo's deep forest and know zip about Jesus; then you're f..cked!!! Hey ho it's off to hell you go!! Or you're a cute little baby, that had the birthcord strung around the neck and suffocated before entering this cruel world. Thank you, straight to hell you go, because you don't believe in Christ's sacrifice. Or you lived a happy life for 1,722 years somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy (although it's called Zurrrp Fadoo where you live), closed your eyes and woke up, dangling from Beelzebub's skewer, roasting above the furnaces of hell: then you'd have a reason not to be too cheerful!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>God is love, He wants to pour out His love to a believing generation. But He will not compromise on His word. We must believe in faith. There is no other way to feel His love (through the Holy Spirit). [/quote]

If your God will only forgive AFTER we meet certain requirements, what kind of monster is he, then?? Even I do better when forgiveness is concerned....

lazserus

Aug 25th, 2003, 8:32 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What about: you sin, but live in the blackest black of Borneo's deep forest and know zip about Jesus[/quote]

I've posed this question many of times to creationists and orthodox Christians and always get the same illogical response:

"If they are unaware, then God forgives them because it is not their fault and they are immediately saved and go to Heaven."

WoW. That's pretty ridiculous.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If your God will only forgive AFTER we meet certain requirements, what kind of monster is he, then?? [/quote]

As I said: Tyrannical and intolerent. There is no logic in orthodox/fundamentalist Christianity. They contradict themselves constantly and fail to see the lack of reason behind their preachings. I'm not saying Christians are all like this, but we all know which ones are.

6billioncounting

Aug 25th, 2003, 12:47 PM

"I admit that I haven't read the bible..... maybe one day I'll get around to it...... but for now.... my general knowledge shall suffice.... "

I haven read A Brief History of Time so I think I will coment to the world about it..."my general knowledge shall suffice.... "<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D">

DontBeAfraid

Aug 25th, 2003, 2:30 PM

6billion those books are way too different, You dont find people on street corners screaming quotes from a brief history of time at you, You dont see billboards about it and you dont find one in every hotel room you'll ever be in. Most importantly one was written by goat herders and the other was written by a genius.

You dont have to be able to quote scripture to know whats in the bible.

Mark

Aug 25th, 2003, 9:43 PM

Ok, if there is a God, what makes you think you can comprehend the what he can and can't do? Do you really believe that your so brilliant that you can understand the nature of God? Get Real! Why don't you just stick to the old, 'can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it?', question.

Anthony

Aug 25th, 2003, 9:48 PM

I'm not sure if you've read the Bible at all, but if you did, you would know that it says that people who haven't been informed about Jesus and the Bible basically get free passes. But if you are 50, then learn about Jesus, but don't accept him, you're done for. At least that's what I think.

mickydoolittle

Aug 26th, 2003, 12:03 AM

"'can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it?'"

Well. . .can he?
-MD-

mickydoolittle

Aug 26th, 2003, 12:04 AM

Another interpretation by a human. . .

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

Dontbeangry

Aug 26th, 2003, 4:17 PM

Yes it is called call it a human heart....

armageddononline

Aug 26th, 2003, 4:57 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm not sure if you've read the Bible at all, but if you did, you would know that it says that people who haven't been informed about Jesus and the Bible basically get free passes. But if you are 50, then learn about Jesus, but don't accept him, you're done for. At least that's what I think. [/quote] DBA came up with a good response to that: Why don't we just kill all babies at birth if we know they'll go to heaven? Sure, we'd go to hell but what could be more altrusitic than giving your own immortal soul for someone else? That makes killing a baby the ultimate moral act, even better than giving your life for it. According to you, everyone should be killed before they get chance to learn about Jesus.

In fact, wouldn't we be better if we burnt every Bible and closed every Church so no-one had a chance to learn? Then we could all go to heaven.

I'm not taking the piss here, why shouldn't we?

evilwill88

Aug 27th, 2003, 2:07 AM

he's got a bloody good point there.......8o

dutchie

Aug 27th, 2003, 3:51 AM

Yes, that's a good point! Let's fry the planet! Better still: let Bush do it, so there's no-one else to blame...:evil:

But I'm afraid that it is a little bit more complicated than that. Anthony who asked me if I had ever read the Bible: Yes, I did (as you could have read in another post). My father was minister in a Baptist church (and he was also managing director of an insurance company) and he and his christian beliefs ruined my childhood.

When I was 12 I asked him where dead babies go to. He told me that it depends on the parents: if they are believers, their kid is "sanctified" through them and will go to heaven. If not, the child inherited the parents' sinfulness and is doomed to hell - in essence being a state separated from God. I asked around and this seemed to be the general opinion in evangelic circles, such as baptists and methodists, backed up by the usual array of biblical quotations.

This - and other dogmas - caused me to turn my back on christianity. If this kind of cruelty is really accepted I wouldn't have anything to do with it. So the reactions to my post were not quite complete...

Concluding: ignorance is no excuse; it's hey ho off to hell you go!

evilwill88

Aug 28th, 2003, 7:26 AM

god is like a big bully........

he is attempting to force people to perform his will or they are threatened with hell........

We must band together and stand up to this bully..... and kick it in thee holy arse!

dutchie

Aug 29th, 2003, 3:43 AM

Well, fine by me, but how??? Tear down all churches?? Kill all priests?? Burn all bibles?? Is that a task you would like to take upon your shoulders?

evilwill88

Aug 29th, 2003, 5:11 AM

no...... i'm not an extremist and mass killing isn't a good thing. The best thing to do is just not believe. Just get on with your lives and not worry about illogical religion.

mickydoolittle

Aug 29th, 2003, 7:28 PM

Here Here!
Good posts wil.
-MD-

Mensa Genius

Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:10 PM

Having knowledge of something is not the same as experiencing it, do you know that?

Suppose i know with a 100% accuracy that if i leave my lamborghini by itself for 10 minutes someone will come along and snatch it, or scratch it, that doesnt stop that someone from having the will to go ahead and not do that crime. Now suppose i put a GPS, alarm system with cameras etc... and a person goes ahead and snatches the car and gets caught, and goes to prison?
Well its not my fault that the person was stupid enough to go ahead and steal that car especially considering i have given that person a warning on the sticker on the windscreen which says, car camera built in.

If we didnt have free will, God would be acting like that organization pre-crime, in the movie minority report, thats how you know we have free will, because we are allowed to commit the crime, and have a chance to appeal to it too!

armageddononline

Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:14 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Suppose i know with a 100% accuracy that if i leave my lamborghini by itself for 10 minutes someone will come along and snatch it, or scratch it, that doesnt stop that someone from having the will to go ahead and not do that crime. [/quote] Yes it does. If you know for 100% there is no chance they won't do it, so they can't have a choice in the matter. It's like if you drop someone out of a plane, you know 100% they are going to fall because they have no choice. If they had a choice about falling then you wouldn't know for 100% that they would.

Mensa Genius

Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:24 PM

I dont quite agree with you Great Dictator,

If you have a 100% certainty someone will, or will not do something, that does not stop that person from having a "choice". Yes you can stop it from happening , i agree completely, but if that person really has choice, you will let him/her go ahead and do it anyways.

what you know about me, or anyone else in the planet, even at an astounding accuracy, doesnt not stop their free will, unless "you" do something about it. and just because you know what will or wont happen does not mean you "made" that choice for that person.

Do you know where i am getting at?

armageddononline

Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:38 PM

I know what you're saying but I don't think it works. Basically, there's no problem unless you know what someone will do for 100%. You simply can't do this, so they have free will. The problem comes in when you include God, as he would presumably know exactly what we would do.

If you know what they will think, you're in effect thinking it for them. Suppose you know that in 5 mins someone will stand on one leg, but they do not. In 5 mins they decide to stand on one leg. If you knew that they would, they cannot not stand on one leg. The act of knowing denied them free will, even though they thought they decided by themselves to stand on one leg.

Mensa Genius

Sep 3rd, 2003, 9:18 PM

Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the
power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven[/quote]

we signed a will (contract) with God in heaven before coming to earth, and the reward was becoming just like god, and the punishment just like the devil. I believe all our spirits were in heaven, the devil posed a challenge about free will, some spirits chose to be birds, and other animals etc, and we humans chose to be human, because we were not sure who was right between god and satan.

mickydoolittle

Sep 3rd, 2003, 9:31 PM

"we signed a will (contract) with God in heaven before coming to earth, and the reward was becoming just like god, and the punishment just like the devil. I believe all our spirits were in heaven, the devil posed a challenge about free will, some spirits chose to be birds, and other animals etc, and we humans chose to be human, because we were not sure who was right between god and satan."

If this were the case, why has no one ever come forward with a memory of what you write of above?

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

dutchie

Sep 4th, 2003, 3:22 AM

well, that'll keep'm thinking for some time, the answer being of course that this is pure theological speculation and not supported by any of those lovely biblical quotes.

The omnipotence of God was never doubted, not in any of the Christian churches. The argument that God is not capable of telling a lie or committing sin has only risen since 8 or 9 decades, and it is an argument most Christians love to bring up, proud as they are that they concocted it. Personally I think that a God capable of lying and sin has much more power and stands much closer to mankind than this rigid idol they hold so dear. The bible states that we have been created to God's image, so it stands to reason that God knows all about and is no stranger to sin.

It always struck me as kind of hypocritical to condemn mankind to hell for committing sin, especially if you're mister knowitall: you (God) know beforehand that a person is not going to believe in you, even when that person is 2 years old. So God knows this and has already made the decision to send this child - later adult - to hell.

With this scenario in mind, who cares about the free will of mankind?? This is sheer cruelty!!!

evilwill88

Sep 4th, 2003, 6:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>we humans chose to be human[/quote]

if we were already human how did we choose to be human?

Mensa Genius

Sep 4th, 2003, 1:17 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>we humans chose to be human[/quote]

good point... i'll correct it to "our spirits chose to be human."

a reacher from the teacher

Sep 4th, 2003, 4:15 PM

1 Corinthians 15
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

when we "bear the image of the heavenly Man." is when we shall be made in the image of God , that is the true time when one is born again ,born of spirit..

Luke 20

35But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 0] 0] 0]

mickydoolittle

Sep 4th, 2003, 7:25 PM

Are you going to answer my questions?

-MD-

dutchie

Sep 5th, 2003, 2:28 AM

However irritating I find it that you can not find your own words to answer to a statement, I have read your quotes and I take it that you mean that there are two states: the natural and the spirit; as long as you're in the natural state, you can not enter heaven, because God is spiritual etc. etc.

But what does this have to do with the topic?? Without reference to something we're discussing here, your post is meaningless, whatever your intention was...

Mensa Genius

Sep 5th, 2003, 1:49 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If this were the case, why has no one ever come forward with a memory of what you write of above?[/quote]

what did you wear 23 days ago?

can you remember that from the top of your head? if you cant.. then how do you expect a human to remember a contract in heaven?

I am just going by an interpretation of the lords prayer!

DigglerD

Sep 5th, 2003, 3:16 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>can you remember that from the top of your head? if you cant.. then how do you expect a human to remember a contract in heaven?[/quote]

I would have to say a contract with the maker in paradise would stick out a LOT MORE then what I wore 23 days ago.

Do you remember the first time you had sex?
Do you remember your 21st birthday?
Do you remember your drivers test?
Do you remember your high school graduation?

Should I go on? I think you get the point.

mickydoolittle

Sep 5th, 2003, 4:26 PM

all the items from Digs list. . .

Signing a 'contract' is always memorable--no matter how long ago it occured. . .

So Mensa, it is my opinion that you're as half-baked as the rest of the religious zealots on this board.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

PS: I expect better arguments from an alleged MENSA member.

Mensa Genius

Sep 6th, 2003, 5:22 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Signing a 'contract' is always memorable--no matter how long ago it occured.[/quote]

Yes memories are reinforced by you making links with a strong emotion, and also things are "never forgotten". People who appear to have a photographic memory or better than average memory, have better methods of "recall". In the case of the lords prayer the signification of jesus to christians, and believers of him,
is enough, to have at the least "faith" in what he had to say concerning our will (contract) with the absolute. Now in regards to someone who is atheist, i can not provide physical evidence as far as in pointing out someone alive today who claims to have remembered the will (contract) in heaven, because the lords prayer itself is an element contained in scripture, whose foundations are based more on faith than proof.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So Mensa, it is my opinion that you're as half-baked as the rest of the religious zealots on this board[/quote]

I try to seperate emotion, from my arguments and I believe everyone has a religion, science is a religion, and so is believing in yourself.

DontBeAfraid

Sep 6th, 2003, 7:57 AM

Dutchie just do what I do, If you see a post that looks like it is a bible quote dont read it right away. Instead scan ovre it to see that it has the posters own interpretation of it and how it might pertain to the conversion. After you have read that then go back and read the bible quote. If it doesnt have anything except a bible quote dont read it at all.

This saves a little time, While you were reading meaningless quotes I was eating chips and dip.

evilwill88

Sep 6th, 2003, 8:08 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I try to seperate emotion, from my arguments and I believe everyone has a religion, science is a religion, and so is believing in yourself.[/quote]

I'm going to have to disagree with that.

Science: "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena."

Religion:"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

So how is science a religion?

armageddononline

Sep 6th, 2003, 8:50 AM

You also make it sound like religion (in the traditional sense) and science are mutually exclusive. I don't think there's anyone who doesn't believe in science, but lots don't believe in religion.

a reacher

Sep 6th, 2003, 10:14 AM

Is this not the teaching of the Mormon doctrine

The bible reads that man was first made of earth,(flesh & Blood) man was not spirit first..

As for the prayer Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven

I take to mean God, your will be done in earth (in this, my body made of the same stuff as the earth) just as your will is now done in heaven..... it doesn't say on earth.

DigglerD

Sep 6th, 2003, 10:30 AM

...why don't we call religion, mythology? Just because it's modern doesn't mean it isn't based COMPLETELY on subjective "faith" and some stories written eons ago...eons AFTER the stories in them allegedly happened.:rolleyes: I'm sure the Greeks didn't call their religion mythology, so then why do the people who need some sort of mythical father figure today get to call it religion?

yesnomaybe

Sep 6th, 2003, 10:44 AM

Why don't we call IQ as pertaining to this forum insult quota it seems to fit a little better..:rolleyes:

Mensa Genius

Sep 6th, 2003, 5:03 PM

A definition of religion from the webster dictionary
..........

: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.

A definition of science from the webster dictionary

: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study.

.......
Now I dont see why science can not be a religion for someone who objectively studies it and acknowledges it as his or her ultimate reality. If anything its a slow religion climbing its way up through experimenting with what god made to find that before the big bang, the absolute existed.

Reply to the man came first comment:

Did the bible not say the body was the temple of Gods spirit? and even before you were man, does the bible not say that God knew you?

I know how much y'all hate quotes but i backed it up mickey, so here goes.

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are ( 1Co 3:17)

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them,and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

According to scripture the same is true about God being in us. You cannot take him out . You cannot destroy him. However, by the way we live we can make it look like he is not in our lives. And we rob God when we do so.

I hope this answers your question, and its not from the mormons. Yes on earth the body came first so the spirit could enter it, but your spirit which was blown into the nostrils of man was always there.
...................

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't think there's anyone who doesn't believe in science, but lots don't believe in religion. [/quote]

thats a big comment, are you sure about making such a big statement? 8o

armageddononline

Sep 6th, 2003, 5:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>thats a big comment, are you sure about making such a big statement? [/quote] First we need to decide what science is. The definition you give is hardly clear so a couple from the invaluable dictionary.com :

"The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena."

"any domain of knowledge accumulated by systematic study and organized by general principles"

Saying you don't believe in science is like saying you don't believe in maths. Does anyone believe 1+1 isn't 2? Does anyone believe you can't observe the world around you and draw conclusions from your results? If anyone says they don't believe in it, they don't know what it is.

So in short, yes I am sticking with my statement.

evilwill88

Sep 6th, 2003, 10:54 PM

I agree with you mike.

Science is about understanding the world around us through observations and experiments with actual evidence.

Religion is about the worship or belief in a deity(s).

It is obvious that science is seperate from religion.

mickydoolittle

Sep 7th, 2003, 1:00 AM

but I can't do it with 100% support.

"Religion is about the worship or belief in a deity(s)."

Religion is a way of life for most people and does not always include a supreme power. This of course was true in the past, but as people evolve, so do their practices.

You may think it a bit 'iffy', but I don't agree that is a worship of a diety.

But mike, you are on target here and good posts from most of you.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

evilwill88

Sep 7th, 2003, 1:37 AM

i did overlook some of the other religions. So it would be more accurate to say that it is a way of life and in some cases involves worship of a higher being. Either way science is not a religion.

mickydoolittle

Sep 7th, 2003, 2:34 AM

Science is not a religion. Agree with you on that.

-MD-

dutchie

Sep 7th, 2003, 12:37 PM

to DBA

well, have to get used to that notion, but it sounds reasonable...:D

Mensa Genius

Sep 7th, 2003, 1:44 PM

If science cant be a religion then what exactly is scientology?

here is the official websites definition on the link below.

www.scientology.org/en_US...pg001.html (http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/background-origins/pg001.html)

dutchie

Sep 8th, 2003, 3:48 AM

Micky,

A religion by default involves a deity. Buddhism is NOT a religion, but a conviction. Convictions do NOT involve a deity. (Fffew, imagine me, a foreigner, sticking out my lingual neck...)

...but I might be wrong, of course.... (being dutch...)

armageddononline

Sep 8th, 2003, 2:55 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If science cant be a religion then what exactly is scientology?[/quote] From what I read, it sounds like neither religion nor science.

I *think* Buddhism is a religion because it teaches reincarnation and an afterlife.

VegasRonin

Sep 8th, 2003, 8:36 PM

One plus one can equal one. One woman plus one man can equal one couple. Just trying ta lighten things up a 'lil. Some people can get just a tad bit, oh I don't know, enraged when debating some topics. :evil:

dutchie

Sep 9th, 2003, 1:36 AM

Mike, you're right about scientology.

An afterlife and/or reincarnation do not necessarily involve a god, these are spiritual issues, but that does not mean they're religious.
The Buddha was no god, he was a man, a Prince. He strived to find enlightenment, the afterlife, or whatever, but he was no god.

mickydoolittle

Sep 9th, 2003, 5:22 PM

If you understand the fundamentals of scientology, you'd recognize that they--like so many other organizations, have twisted something to suit their cause.

Buddhism does represent a relgion since it deals with a life force (spirit) to progress on until enlightenment is achieved. Most all religions believethat a spirit resides in the individual worshipping.

And, many ppl look to budha as tho he were a god--why else have so many temples been built with hius image enshrined with in? Why do ppl meditate and seek enlightenment while seated in front of the budha statue? If budha isn't thought of as a god by the followers, then what do you call it?

Ppl worship god and jesus and want to be more like them. Ppl worship budha and want to be more like budha....where do you draw the line?

Convictions are what one lives by as a result of following a religion.

"The buddha was no god, he was a man, a Prince"

Heheh, jesus was a 'man' as well; an alleged king of kings. But, I see no proof he was a god.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

mickydoolittle

Sep 10th, 2003, 12:49 AM

If budha did achieve enlightenment--total nothingness, then that would be perfection--something that the bible shows god is not.

Therefore, by the definition of your christian faith, then budha is more godly than your christian god--since perfection equates to nothingness.

evilwill, your thoughts on this please.

"micky 'I'm an opinionatedbastard' doolittle".
-MD-

evilwill88

Sep 10th, 2003, 2:15 AM

By definition Buddism is not a religion. Budha may have been worshipped like a god but the difference between that and the worhisp of the christian god is that the christians actually believe he is a god. Whilst Buddists realise they are worshipping a man. (At least there is some evidence to back buddism.) Buddism may share many attributes with religions but i don't think it actually is one.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Heheh, jesus was a 'man' as well; an alleged king of kings. But, I see no proof he was a god.[/quote]

You're forgetting the whole jesus is the the embodiment of god on earth crap. I'm sure that is cause for worship according to christians.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Therefore, by the definition of your christian faith, then budha is more godly than your christian god--since perfection equates to nothingness.[/quote]

But he is still something (human) and is flawed.

dutchie

Sep 10th, 2003, 2:56 AM

Have to agree on most Will says here. You actually could compare the worship of Buddha better to the worship of - let's say - a rockstar than to the worship of God. Buddhists don't think Buddha is a god. If a belief just has a spiritual foundation, and no god is present in it, it's not called a religion. I am beginning to get sick of these definitions... Let's debate!!

If God knows everything, do we have a free will??
Well, Mensa Genius was going on about the merits and blessings of free will that God gave us in another forum. The opposing question was of course:

If God knows everything in advance, then he knows in advance (yes, millions of years IN ADVANCE...) that he's going to condemn people to hell for not believing in Jesus' sacrifice. If you believe this - and I have witnessed many a christian writing this down in these very forums - then you believe the whole sacrifice to be pointless to all that are damned to hell IN ADVANCE. Why would God give his OWN SON a slap in the face like that?? It's like saying "right son, you suffered a lot on the cross, and that's all very well for mr A and mrs B, but mr C and mrs D are going to hell anyway: I knew this even BEFORE you were crucified..."

What then is THE POINT in all this????!????

Where is the Free Will???!???

steven marshall

Sep 10th, 2003, 3:12 PM

A lot of people assume (atheists included) that if there is a God that he would automatically know the future.

As you may have gathered by now I do believe in God and also I suspect he may not know the future.

In Jeremiah 32 God says through the prophet "I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind that they should do such a destable thing and so make Judah sin".

Now either:

1. God was lying and he really did not know what was going to happen.

2. The passage of scripture is not truthful.

3. The passage is truthful and God was not lying.

This could be an important point in relation to understanding freewill.

dutchie

Sep 11th, 2003, 2:27 AM

I think you got your assumptions mixed up: in 1.) the word 'not' should be removed???

If you are right and God does not know everything in advance, how come this dogma (that God knows everything) has survived more than 20 centuries????

evilwill88

Sep 11th, 2003, 2:49 AM

the dogma contradicts itself too much. If there is a god i very much doubt he is what all the raving christians say he is.

dutchie

Sep 11th, 2003, 4:47 AM

Yeah, well, it was kind of surprising (refreshingly surprising, I might add..) to see a christian come back on the omnipotence of God... Although I had heard rumours that God was incapable of telling a lie (see post above)...

This gets kind of confusing....<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">

armageddononline

Sep 11th, 2003, 11:11 AM

If lying is a sin then God can't lie, as God is without sin. An all-knowing God would have to know the future. Therefore, the scripture must be wrong.

steven marshall

Sep 11th, 2003, 4:54 PM

Yes you are right dutchie. I did get point 1) wrong.

Regarding the issue of it lasting for so long, it appears that the idea was encourage by John Calvin (Calvinism).

Most churches do tend to go along with the theory that God knows the future. I do believe he knows everything. A person could know everything about say an insect, but may not necessary be able to predict exactly how it will react in every situation. That person will therefore know everything about the insect, but still does not know exactly what it will do in the future.

dutchie

Sep 12th, 2003, 3:33 AM

So, what you believe is.....??

dutchie

Nov 1st, 2004, 1:54 AM

For now I'll let them exist side by side...

attemption3

May 28th, 2008, 1:45 AM

First of all, the teacher can not KNOW what a student will get on a test, whether or not they are generally good students. A good student could have a bad day, or decide to fxk the system and that grades don't matter and fail. The bad student could have been faking being a bad student, or decide to study extra hard that night and end up with a good grade. And I think many believe that God is directive, actually mainly directive, and this God that may or may not exhist in theory has infinetely more knowledge than any knowledge we have. Most of his knowledge would probably be considered new to us.

UVsaturated

May 28th, 2008, 2:19 AM

Most of his knowledge would probably be considered new to us.

I would think a lot of knowledge would be new to you. Perhaps you can reply as to which post you're responding to in this 3+ year old thread?

Also, what do you mean that God is "directive"?

Assassin X

May 28th, 2008, 3:58 AM

OMG look at the info in in those members names. OLD topic lol. Way to bump it.

But since its bumped I might as well correct it:

He made us so He would know what choices we would make, and how we would die.

Yes he knows our choices. No he doesn't know how we will die per say. He sees our many paths we can take and the MANY deaths we could have depending on where we could go.

He must surely therefore know everything that would happen in the universe, infinitely into the future.
Yes. But that doesn't change the fact its your life, hence free will.

Accepting this, how can we have free will? It must just be an illusion of choice. We are destined to live and die in a certain way.
Your can live however you want. You can die however you want. You can slit your wrist right now and thats your choice. Or you can blow your brains out. God doesn't choose that. He knows all your possible deaths based on every move you do.

Like if you decide to turn down a job that changes your life's direction so maybe that means for some reason your going to die differently. But then further down you decide to not have kids and join the army. Well maybe he sees your death by a bullet. But then when that time comes you for whatever reason go crazy and in that day miss the bullet! So now he sees your new death...etc

You control your future.

HOWEVER for Christians he does give us opportunities to better our lives through choices. We have no idea when there are presented and we can pass them up and not even know it. And he might present more as time goes on. I would imagine he does the same for non-christians such as wanting to get you saved but I never really asked anyone about that.

aceinthehouse

Sep 12th, 2008, 11:32 PM

Wow...This is easy to answer..."If God knows everything how do we have free will?"

Because we have the choice to decide for ourselves...God can do things to help you in life and even punish you if he feels it's neccesary,but he allows you to create your own path to him...He gives you the information and signs for you to have and to use at your discretion.

Not having "free will" is being forced to abide by,honor,worship or even make your own decisions...God only needs to see your heart,to know what decisions you will make...

Kind of like football in a way...There are many Playbooks(bibles,koran,etc.) and many coaches(Jesus,Muhammad,etc.)

But don't be fooled my friends...You can only have 1 head coach and 1 playbook...Otherwise you are lost and confused!

God doesn't run the plays for you (free will)...But he's given you the best playbook to use and the best coach!Your "free will" is to find the right Head Coach and playbook.

Once you do that,the path to victory is in site!But you can't be flipfloppin' ideas and going through coaches and playbooks as often as you change underwear...Cause when the game is over,you will be judged by your stability and cohesiveness...(do you want to be like my Redskins,Falcons and those teams that just can't seem to get it together?)Or do you want to be like the Colts,Seahawks and others?)

Are their bad coaches and playbooks...lolyeslol...See Belicheat:Evil lol

But seriously...Just ask yourself what's the most important thing to you in your life right now.
What is the 3 things you would never want to lose or be without?

If god stripped you of everything you had,what 3 things would you ask of him to let you keep?

Your answers would be telling to me,but god already knows what your answers would be!

You must dig deep in your heart to find out,what truly is important to you!

That my friends...is free will

Oh..and on a side note!!If the government makes all the decisions for you,your "free will" evaporates.Ponder on that one for a minute!

Cartesiantheater

Sep 13th, 2008, 1:23 AM

The free will many of you have spoken of is like this:

Man goes up to woman.

Man says "Love me!"

Man pulls out gun and puts it to her head.

"Love me..."

If she says "no" he shoots her...

Yeah, I'll pass...

EDIT- wait, no, I"m wrong. The above isn't a far analogy. A more correct analogy is something like this:

Man puts woman on conveyor belt which forks into two conveyor belts. There are walls on all sides, so she cannot simply walk off.

At one fork is the man, who requires the woman "love him" if she "chooses" to go down the conveyor belt he is on.

The other fork in the conveyor belt leads to a vertical wall of razor sharp spikes poking out toward the woman (and any one unfortunate enough to be on the belt).

THERE ARE NO OTHER DIRECTIONS TO GO!

If the woman chooses to save her life, she must love and marry the man as a condition for going on his conveyor belt fork. But the man isn't forcing her...

If the woman chooses NOT to love the man, he doesn't force her. He lets her go to the conveyor belt leading to the spikes. Eventually, she will become exhausted and will fall, and then be slowly killed by the spikes. But the man isn't the one that kills her...

Yeah, I'll definitely pass...

peter

Sep 20th, 2008, 11:23 PM

This occured to me a couple of days ago:

The general view of God is that he is all knowing and all powerful. He would know the position of every particle in th universe at every time. He must surely therefore know everything that would happen in the universe, infinitely into the future. He made us so He would know what choices we would make, and how we would die. Even if God does not control our will, an omnipotent God would know what it would be.

Accepting this, how can we have free will? It must just be an illusion of choice. We are destined to live and die in a certain way.

Now this only applies if you believe in an omnipotent God. If you do, how do you answer this?hi there, yes GOD knows all he created everything from the heavens till the earth! so he should! if you where to create something you would know all about it but other's would have to find out for themselves or from the creator you! so what's free will? GOD makes us do nothing GOD do's not make you follow him or respect or love him! GOD gives you the right to make your own choices in the 1 life he gives you! how you live and the choices you make in life are up to you!GOD do's not interfear with your decision! how ever your consicence the voice of GOD will give you advice on what to do! again you with or without the advice of GOD will make your own choice!this is free will! so the choices you make will determan how you die!but remember GOD is about life not death! if you make the wrong choices in life then you will die if you make the right choices in life you find life! what's the 1 thing man has always' searched and dreamed off! IMORTALITY! the power to exist forever! the only place i have found this power and the only place you can find IMORTALITY is in the BIBLE! GOD'S words! the ultimate prize offered by GOD himself as the prize for those who seek it!IMORTALITY! to live life for yourself is death! to live your life for the devil(satan) is death! to spend your life in doing what GOD ask's which is only to be of good nature to respect other people even when they disrespect you! two wrong's don't make a right! as GOD say's love the sinner hate the sin! GOD is all about being albe to respect your fellow neighbour.AT THE END OF EVERY DAY YOU WILL MAKE YOUR OWN DECESIONS THIS IS YOUR FREE WILL! BUT REMEMBER ALL YOUR DECESIONS YOU MAKE HAVE A CONSEQUENCE! FOR EVERY ACTION THERE IS A REACTION! GOD'S NO.1 MAN

Traveler

Sep 21st, 2008, 12:14 AM

If you put down a pile of money where a thief will find it then you know that the thief will take it.

Did you force the thief to take it even though you knew that he would? No of course not. The thief made up his own mind and made his own decision to steal it.

Now how did I override the free will of the thief just because I knew in advance what he would do?

whitestone

Dec 13th, 2008, 2:44 AM

Cyranothe2nd

Dec 14th, 2008, 1:52 AM