The Book of Revelation Fulfilled! [Archive]

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 29th, 2004, 10:40 AM

Hello Skippy and thank-you for your reply,

A requirement for a prophet or a prophesy is authority. Christ had authority from God. John the Baptist also had authority from God to baptise. Peter had authority from Christ to found the Church.
Authority is something that has to be recognized, God knows who has been given authority and who usurps the power for their own personal gain. It is time that allows man to recognize the authority of one man and the annilation of those that promote false understanding. When a prophet stood up in the past, there were very few that recognized that he had any authority but once everything that he prophesied had come to past, then the people recognized that God had spoken through him.

Read the Book of Revelations, and you'll see that John's authority is limited to the first seven verses. After that, he is no longer writing with authority, but describing a vision. The first seven verses are in agreement with Matthew 24. Everything after that is in contradiction to Mathew 24, and thus you have a choice to either discount the Book of Revelations, or discount Christ's words in Matthew 24. But in considering that, you must completely understand Christ's own prophesy, where it will become apparent that the Book of Revelations in fact fulfills Christ's prophesy, rather than replacing or supplementing it.

Sorry but you have lost me here, chapters one through seven are also visions of the seven churches, the throne and the lamb of God. If he is being shown these things then how is it possible that these are not visions that he see. Chapters eight through twenty-two use the same symbolism that is spread through out the Old and New Testaments.

If you have any specific verses or chapters that you feel do not have the authority to be in the Bible, I would be more than glad to connect them to the appropriate text in the earlier books of the Bible and then if it is necessary connect them to historical events to show you their fulfillment.

Skippy

Dec 29th, 2004, 12:52 PM

Authority is something that has to be recognized, God knows who has been given authority and who usurps the power for their own personal gain. It is time that allows man to recognize the authority of one man and the annilation of those that promote false understanding. When a prophet stood up in the past, there were very few that recognized that he had any authority but once everything that he prophesied had come to past, then the people recognized that God had spoken through him.

But in every case, they were able to establish their authority within their lifetime. That has not been established in this case, therefore Nostradamus' Quatrains have as much credence.

Sorry but you have lost me here, chapters one through seven are also visions of the seven churches, the throne and the lamb of God. If he is being shown these things then how is it possible that these are not visions that he see. Chapters eight through twenty-two use the same symbolism that is spread through out the Old and New Testaments.

Chapter 1, verses 1 to 7. Everything else is exactly as you put it, a vision he had. It cannot be considered a prophesy just because it was a vision.

If you have any specific verses or chapters that you feel do not have the authority to be in the Bible, I would be more than glad to connect them to the appropriate text in the earlier books of the Bible and then if it is necessary connect them to historical events to show you their fulfillment.

Again, you misunderstand the context of the word authority. The issue of whether the Book of Revelation shoud be in the Bible is not the issue here, and I will state that it belongs as part of the New Testament because it fulfills a prophesy stated by Christ.

But if you can show me anywhere that establishes the authority of John in the Book of Revelations elsewhere in the Bible the go ahead. Please do connect everything for me.

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 29th, 2004, 7:06 PM

But in every case, they were able to establish their authority within their lifetime. That has not been established in this case, therefore Nostradamus' Quatrains have as much credence.

You have already stated that John was given authority and then state that the authority is limited to the first seven chapters, this does seem just a little bit questionable. As to Nostradamus, I question totally the authority by which he wrote and would say that he was well educated in scripture and drew his understanding from that and not from a revelation from God. This calls for an understanding of what is a manifestation of God, what is a prophet of God and who are individuals that gain understanding from careful study of the text. The Bible clearly shows the difference in these three.

Chapter 1, verses 1 to 7. Everything else is exactly as you put it, a vision he had. It cannot be considered a prophesy just because it was a vision.

I have to question the logic of this for clearly Christ by quoting from Daniel and speaking of the Abomination that causes Desolation, shown to Daniel in a vision gives authority to the use of visions as a means for communication between God and His chosen ones.

Again, you misunderstand the context of the word authority. The issue of whether the Book of Revelation shoud be in the Bible is not the issue here, and I will state that it belongs as part of the New Testament because it fulfills a prophesy stated by Christ.

Then before I can continue, it is necessary for you to clarify this question of authority because I am quite willing to present evidence to the fact that every chapter of Revelation was written under the authority of God and has been fulfilled based upon that authority.

Revelation is a representation of what has happened before the time of John, during the time of John and from that time up and till the present day. The only thing that has yet to be done is to explain in clear language for all of the inhabitants of the earth exactly how all of this prophecy has been fulfilled.

But if you can show me anywhere that establishes the authority of John in the Book of Revelations elsewhere in the Bible the go ahead. Please do connect everything for me.

Revelation is the sum of all symbolism used in the Bible to present an image of the events that would happen leading up to the return of Christ. It is a very complex and drawn out document that would take pages upon pages to explain every detail that is presented and since this is the case, I would ask that you choose a particular chapter or verse as the starting point of a very long explanation.

Skippy

Dec 29th, 2004, 8:13 PM

You have already stated that John was given authority and then state that the authority is limited to the first seven chapters, this does seem just a little bit questionable.

VERSES!!!! Not chapters. Specifically...

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But even this is tenuous because of all the different translations that abound for it, and in any case, it is limited to only the portion where he states, "he Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass" which can only refer to Christ's message in Matthew 24, and again further when he states, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Because this is what is described in Matthew 24 (I'm using this passage from Matthew because it is deemed more reliable and complete than its similar passages in Luke or Mark.

As to Nostradamus, I question totally the authority by which he wrote and would say that he was well educated in scripture and drew his understanding from that and not from a revelation from God. This calls for an understanding of what is a manifestation of God, what is a prophet of God and who are individuals that gain understanding from careful study of the text. The Bible clearly shows the difference in these three.

Absolutely, and it can be shown for all the other prophets, yet it cannot be shown for John and the Book of Revelation. In fact, the writing style of the Book of Revelation are cinsidered to be a completely different writing stlye than that of the author of the Gospel of John, and it is this Gospel that is commonly believed to have been written the earliest and by an eyewitness to the events contained in the Gospels.

I have to question the logic of this for clearly Christ by quoting from Daniel and speaking of the Abomination that causes Desolation, shown to Daniel in a vision gives authority to the use of visions as a means for communication between God and His chosen ones.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that all visions or dreams are prophesies.

Then before I can continue, it is necessary for you to clarify this question of authority because I am quite willing to present evidence to the fact that every chapter of Revelation was written under the authority of God and has been fulfilled based upon that authority.

Go for it.

Revelation is a representation of what has happened before the time of John, during the time of John and from that time up and till the present day. The only thing that has yet to be done is to explain in clear language for all of the inhabitants of the earth exactly how all of this prophecy has been fulfilled.

Oh, or is that just your interpretation of it? If the fulfillment of the prophesy is so complicated that the normal person cannot understand it then how do you know you have interpreted it correctly? Can you show its fulfillment in plain language?

Revelation is the sum of all symbolism used in the Bible to present an image of the events that would happen leading up to the return of Christ. It is a very complex and drawn out document that would take pages upon pages to explain every detail that is presented and since this is the case, I would ask that you choose a particular chapter or verse as the starting point of a very long explanation.

You are correct because pages upon pages have been spent on intepreting ancient symbolism. Much of it may be conjecture, and not entirely accurate. The problem arises not so much that there is at least a minimal accuracy error rate, but in not knowing where those errors lie. So interpreting the symbolism in the Book of Revelation is at best conjecture.

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 29th, 2004, 9:46 PM

Absolutely, and it can be shown for all the other prophets, yet it cannot be shown for John and the Book of Revelation. In fact, the writing style of the Book of Revelation are cinsidered to be a completely different writing stlye than that of the author of the Gospel of John, and it is this Gospel that is commonly believed to have been written the earliest and by an eyewitness to the events contained in the Gospels.

I finally understand where it is that you are going with this and agree with you totally that these are two different writing styles because they are two different men. There are in fact three different Johns in the Bible, John the Baptist, John the disciple and Saint John that wrote the Book of Revelation. It is fairly common knowledge of church history that the Disciple died long before the third John was sent to Patmos.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that all visions or dreams are prophesies.

A prophet that has a dream knows if it is prophecy or just a personal dream and since in this case it starts out in the first seven verses by saying that in fact it was the Revelation of Christ, who are we to question the authority?

Oh, or is that just your interpretation of it? If the fulfillment of the prophesy is so complicated that the normal person cannot understand it then how do you know you have interpreted it correctly? Can you show its fulfillment in plain language?

I take no credit for interpretation and leave understanding up to each person that examines what is presented before them. Chapter 5 shows us that there is only one that is able to remove the seals and that is the lamb of God, the seals were removed at the second advent and it is only by being a faithful servant of the Lord and recognizing that return that I am able to look backwards through history to understand the fulfillment. I know that it is correct because I used the Bible as the measuring stick it was meant to be to prove what I already knew and understood from the teachings that I was given prior to opening and examining the Bible.

You are correct because pages upon pages have been spent on intepreting ancient symbolism. Much of it may be conjecture, and not entirely accurate. The problem arises not so much that there is at least a minimal accuracy error rate, but in not knowing where those errors lie. So interpreting the symbolism in the Book of Revelation is at best conjecture.

It is only conjecture when you use it to predict the future, when it is used to authenticate a new revelation from God it is a whole other story. It then becomes the answer grid for a multiple choice exam and when all the marks are in the correct places then it is 100% and there is no more questions to be asked.

Skippy

Dec 30th, 2004, 5:18 AM

I finally understand where it is that you are going with this and agree with you totally that these are two different writing styles because they are two different men. There are in fact three different Johns in the Bible, John the Baptist, John the disciple and Saint John that wrote the Book of Revelation. It is fairly common knowledge of church history that the Disciple died long before the third John was sent to Patmos.

Well then, the question begs again, what authority does the author have? What differentiates this text/prophesy from any other claim made by anyone, such as Nostradamus?

A prophet that has a dream knows if it is prophecy or just a personal dream and since in this case it starts out in the first seven verses by saying that in fact it was the Revelation of Christ, who are we to question the authority?

Who are we? Well, if we are Christians then we have to question their authority since it is in contradiction with what Christ said.

I take no credit for interpretation and leave understanding up to each person that examines what is presented before them. Chapter 5 shows us that there is only one that is able to remove the seals and that is the lamb of God, the seals were removed at the second advent and it is only by being a faithful servant of the Lord and recognizing that return that I am able to look backwards through history to understand the fulfillment. I know that it is correct because I used the Bible as the measuring stick it was meant to be to prove what I already knew and understood from the teachings that I was given prior to opening and examining the Bible.

You've made no sense whasoever here. Perhaps re-word it.

It is only conjecture when you use it to predict the future, when it is used to authenticate a new revelation from God it is a whole other story. It then becomes the answer grid for a multiple choice exam and when all the marks are in the correct places then it is 100% and there is no more questions to be asked.

Great, but that has no implication on the Book of Revelations since you cannot show where it applies. You said that you you show fulfillement of the Book of Revelations, we await that still.

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 30th, 2004, 12:03 PM

Hello Skippy and thank-you for your reply,

Let us move on and examine just a few parts of the Book, I will pick a starting point at Chapter 12 and things can be expanded from there.

To keep things as condensed as possible I am going to reference verses of scripture that explain particular words but not present what is written but leave that for you to examine for verification purposes.

Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

The woman is our starting point, she is identified as having a crown of twelve stars.
Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 and the reply by Jacob in verse 10 explains that the stars are sons. Being that these stars form a crown, we know that these sons are princes and their mother is the matriarch. Skipping down, we know that the woman fled into the desert.
Now it is time to look back into Genesis for the name of this woman that is the matriarch of twelve princes and fled into the desert. In Genesis 16 we are shown a maidservant that is pregnant with the son of Abraham that flees into the desert. Genesis 17 verse 20 tells that this son will be the father of twelve rulers. This son and his mother are shown in Genesis 21 verse 19 at a place prepared by the Lord.
The woman's name is Hagar and the son in Genesis is Ishmael.
The entire context of these verses has to do with waiting, the dragon lies in wait to devour the child that is born and the woman lies in wait for the Lord to do what needs to be done. The Hebrew word for laying in wait is Arab which is directly connected to the words wilderness and desert. The place were Hagar was sent is known as Arabia.

Let us now move on to the son that is born in Revelation 12, whom we have determined comes from the lineage of Hagar or is a descendant of Ishmael. The child is to reign all the nations with an iron scepter, in Revelation 19 verse 14 the same iron scepter is spoken of and we are told that he will tread the wine press of the wrath of God and wear a robe dipped in blood. Let us move on to connect all of this to Isaiah 63

Isaiah 63
God's Vengeance on the Nations
1Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

This verse is speaking of one who comes from Edom and wears the apparel from it's capital of Bozrah. This is no stranger to this land but one who is from this region, one that lives the culture and dress.
Where is Edom?

2Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3"I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4"For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5"I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6"I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

This man lived by the sword and his own arm brought salvation.

God's Ancient Mercies Recalled
7I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD,
According to all that the LORD has granted us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has granted them according to His compassion
And according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses.

Read carefully the above verse and you will see that there are two groups of people spoken of in this verse, the house of Israel spoken of as 'them' and the people that are spoken of in this chapter as 'us'. The following verses tell what God did for them through Christ and remember back to the days of Moses. Take not of the words Savior and affliction these words are speaking of the final sacrifice.

8For He said, "Surely, they are My people,
Sons who will not deal falsely "
So He became their Savior.
9In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
11Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
12Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses,
Who divided the waters before them to make for Himself an everlasting name,
13Who led them through the depths?
Like the horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble;
14As the cattle which go down into the valley,
The Spirit of the LORD gave them rest
So You led Your people,
To make for Yourself a glorious name

Now we move into the 'us'.

"You Are Our Father"
15Look down from heaven and see from Your holy and glorious habitation;
Where are Your zeal and Your mighty deeds?
The stirrings of Your heart and Your compassion are restrained toward me.
16For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name

The preceding verse is very important to understand the identity of these people and the one who was their savior, for they descendants of Abraham that were ejected from his tent and for this reason Israel does not recognize them.

17Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage
18Your holy people possessed Your sanctuary for a little while,
Our adversaries have trodden it down.
19We have become like those over whom You have never ruled,
Like those who were not called by Your name.

The final verses show us that it is in fact their adversaries that are responsible for the desecration of the sanctuary, the abomination that causes desolation.

Doomer

Dec 30th, 2004, 12:24 PM

Religious people are so damn funny. :headbang:

Skippy

Dec 30th, 2004, 12:38 PM

David, great post, but before I comment on what you have written above, I would like to ask you to put it into real terms as it applies, today, yesterday, or tomorrow. In the meantime I will work on my reasponse. Thanks in advance.

Skippy

Dec 30th, 2004, 1:35 PM

The Woman and the Dragon
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
-------------------------------------

The woman is our starting point, she is identified as having a crown of twelve stars.
Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 and the reply by Jacob in verse 10 explains that the stars are sons.

Okay, here we see a very simple association of celestial objects with identifiable persons. In this scenario, there can be no doubt that the stars are symbols of the sons, but we cannot say for certain that all uses of the stars sybolically will refer to sons. To do that, we would also have to say that all uses of the sun would represent the person's father and the same for moon and mother. While this may apply some of the time, it may not apply all of the time.

Being that these stars form a crown, we know that these sons are princes and their mother is the matriarch. Skipping down, we know that the woman fled into the desert.

No we don't. This is how you have chosen to interpret it. This may as well be bible codes in a primitive form. For all you know, the author, who remains of spurious origin may in fact be making a reference to astrology in some form. It is just as likely that he is referring to a celestial map and the appearance of a comet or two.

More to come on this....

Now it is time to look back into Genesis for the name of this woman that is the matriarch of twelve princes and fled into the desert. In Genesis 16 we are shown a maidservant that is pregnant with the son of Abraham that flees into the desert. Genesis 17 verse 20 tells that this son will be the father of twelve rulers. This son and his mother are shown in Genesis 21 verse 19 at a place prepared by the Lord.
The woman's name is Hagar and the son in Genesis is Ishmael.
The entire context of these verses has to do with waiting, the dragon lies in wait to devour the child that is born and the woman lies in wait for the Lord to do what needs to be done. The Hebrew word for laying in wait is Arab which is directly connected to the words wilderness and desert. The place were Hagar was sent is known as Arabia.

Okay so we can again say that this is primitive bible codes stuff, or we can say that the author is making a reference to something, but this is a stretch because you are fitting that which fits best to meet your needs.

Let us now move on to the son that is born in Revelation 12, whom we have determined comes from the lineage of Hagar or is a descendant of Ishmael. The child is to reign all the nations with an iron scepter, in Revelation 19 verse 14 the same iron scepter is spoken of and we are told that he will tread the wine press of the wrath of God and wear a robe dipped in blood. Let us move on to connect all of this to Isaiah 63

Since Isaiah would have been known to the author, why would this be a surprise? Christ was also well versed in the Prophets, however, he was always clear when referencing them.

The preceding verse is very important to understand the identity of these people and the one who was their savior, for they descendants of Abraham that were ejected from his tent and for this reason Israel does not recognize them.

I know you want to indicate that it is the Muslims, but that is a convenience that has been around since the Crusades. By the same token, valid arguments can be made to identify other groups of people, especially the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. But, this is Isaiah, not Revelations so any referencing to Isaiah would be expected and merely paraphrasing.

17Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage
18Your holy people possessed Your sanctuary for a little while,
Our adversaries have trodden it down.
19We have become like those over whom You have never ruled,
Like those who were not called by Your name.

The final verses show us that it is in fact their adversaries that are responsible for the desecration of the sanctuary, the abomination that causes desolation.

Since the Temple no longer exists, and won't for a long time, either it is referencing the Dome of the Rock, or else this is long into the future. Or, it could be referencing somewhere else.

As for the abomination that causes desolation, I will admit that I am stumped on that one at this time. I do not necessarily believe the current interpretation that mixes Daniel and Revelations. It is the only part of Daniel that Christ mentions, and this is significant. My thoughts are leaning in two directions regarding this, but I have yet to work out a solution.

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 31st, 2004, 2:30 PM

Hello Skippy and thank-you for your reply,

Okay, here we see a very simple association of celestial objects with identifiable persons. In this scenario, there can be no doubt that the stars are symbols of the sons, but we cannot say for certain that all uses of the stars sybolically will refer to sons. To do that, we would also have to say that all uses of the sun would represent the person's father and the same for moon and mother. While this may apply some of the time, it may not apply all of the time.

I do agree that symbols can have more than one interpretation and would never suggest that this is the only possible interpretation for stars, only that in this particular case this is the reference and given time and further examination of other scriptures I will prove that such is the case.

No we don't. This is how you have chosen to interpret it. This may as well be bible codes in a primitive form. For all you know, the author, who remains of spurious origin may in fact be making a reference to astrology in some form. It is just as likely that he is referring to a celestial map and the appearance of a comet or two.

I truly appreciate your careful examination of things and agree that this particular reference as with many such references have astrological fulfillment as well as presenting a symbolic representation. We know that for example that there were two signs that foretold the coming of Christ, The sign in the heaven which was a bright star and has been determined to be Sirius, Alpha Canis Majoris; the dog star. The second was John the Baptist that prepared the way.

Okay so we can again say that this is primitive bible codes stuff, or we can say that the author is making a reference to something, but this is a stretch because you are fitting that which fits best to meet your needs.

Examining the examples of Joseph and Daniel it is clearly possible to see that these visions are meant to be interpreted and understood when the time is right and to fulfill God's purpose. The question that needs to be asked is what need of mine is fulfilled by your recognition of what these verses mean? The only person that gains anything in this matter is you and anyone else that happens to recognize an ounce of wisdom in that which I have presented. I will admit that I do have a very selfish desire to clear away ignorance and bring light to any area of darkness.

Since Isaiah would have been known to the author, why would this be a surprise? Christ was also well versed in the Prophets, however, he was always clear when referencing them.

Christ was clear when he wanted to be clear but there are many occasions that he mentions verses from other books but does not make mention of that book directly. For example Christ on numerous ocassians uses language that is used in the Book of Enoch and explained in much greater detail, for those that wish to receive a greater understanding they would examine the words of Enoch and gain a much clearer understanding of what Christ was trying to get across.

I know you want to indicate that it is the Muslims, but that is a convenience that has been around since the Crusades. By the same token, valid arguments can be made to identify other groups of people, especially the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. But, this is Isaiah, not Revelations so any referencing to Isaiah would be expected and merely paraphrasing.

My intention is to indicate how the scripture is related so that it is possible to examine the past and the present for a clear definition of who it is that plays what role in it's fulfillment. Muslims being twenty-five percent of the worlds population have a role to play, as do your people. I could have started with your people but I chose to start where I did.

If it was necessary for John to present such clarity as you are suggesting, then why did the prophets of the Old Testament not state with absolute clarity exactly how and when the Messiah would come so that everyone could be there waiting for Him at his arrival?

Since the Temple no longer exists, and won't for a long time, either it is referencing the Dome of the Rock, or else this is long into the future. Or, it could be referencing somewhere else.

Again we come across a two fold answer, the physical Temple; I will skip for now as further examination of Revelation will answer this question. It is the spiritual temple that I believe is worth examination at this point. The question comes down to what are our temples and how does the Holy of Holies relate and how is the outer court represented?

As for the abomination that causes desolation, I will admit that I am stumped on that one at this time. I do not necessarily believe the current interpretation that mixes Daniel and Revelations. It is the only part of Daniel that Christ mentions, and this is significant. My thoughts are leaning in two directions regarding this, but I have yet to work out a solution.

The abomination causes the desolation of the inner temple and was fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans and since the Book of Revelation was written after that event we know that the Temple was to be rebuilt so that a similar type of event could happen. The question is who are the people that are responsible for rebuilding of the temple and the answer to this question is also shown in Revelation.

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 8:56 AM

I do agree that symbols can have more than one interpretation and would never suggest that this is the only possible interpretation for stars, only that in this particular case this is the reference and given time and further examination of other scriptures I will prove that such is the case.

Sure, but you could also string your thread through Tom Sawyer and War and Peace and still be able to make connections. That doesn't mean that those connections are accurate, it just means that they will fit.

I truly appreciate your careful examination of things and agree that this particular reference as with many such references have astrological fulfillment as well as presenting a symbolic representation. We know that for example that there were two signs that foretold the coming of Christ, The sign in the heaven which was a bright star and has been determined to be Sirius, Alpha Canis Majoris; the dog star. The second was John the Baptist that prepared the way.

Well, here we are in complete disagreement because I have never seen it "determined" that Sirius was the fabled Christmas star. In fact, I posted another theory, which I personally believe that supports a conjunction. Only the Christmas star could be considered a sign, John the Baptist could not be considered a sign, as much as a prophecy fulfillment.

Examining the examples of Joseph and Daniel it is clearly possible to see that these visions are meant to be interpreted and understood when the time is right and to fulfill God's purpose. The question that needs to be asked is what need of mine is fulfilled by your recognition of what these verses mean? The only person that gains anything in this matter is you and anyone else that happens to recognize an ounce of wisdom in that which I have presented. I will admit that I do have a very selfish desire to clear away ignorance and bring light to any area of darkness.

But how can you be so sure that you are bringing the light and not just fulfilling a prophecy of Christ? If you want dreams and visions, go over to godlikeproductions where not a day goes by that someone is posting their latest prophetic dream.

Christ was clear when he wanted to be clear but there are many occasions that he mentions verses from other books but does not make mention of that book directly. For example Christ on numerous ocassians uses language that is used in the Book of Enoch and explained in much greater detail, for those that wish to receive a greater understanding they would examine the words of Enoch and gain a much clearer understanding of what Christ was trying to get across.

Such as?

My intention is to indicate how the scripture is related so that it is possible to examine the past and the present for a clear definition of who it is that plays what role in it's fulfillment. Muslims being twenty-five percent of the worlds population have a role to play, as do your people. I could have started with your people but I chose to start where I did.

My people? Who are they? But, as I said, a valid argument, just as valid as yours, could be made to identify ny groupd of people.

[QUOTE=Godsgifttomankind]
If it was necessary for John to present such clarity as you are suggesting, then why did the prophets of the Old Testament not state with absolute clarity exactly how and when the Messiah would come so that everyone could be there waiting for Him at his arrival?

Because those were the pre-Christ prophets. Christ came to clarify the Law, so why would it become confused again after His departure by some unknown person who not likely ever even met Christ?

Again we come across a two fold answer, the physical Temple; I will skip for now as further examination of Revelation will answer this question. It is the spiritual temple that I believe is worth examination at this point. The question comes down to what are our temples and how does the Holy of Holies relate and how is the outer court represented?

So basically the task at hand is to continue with your thread stringing it to whatever finally fits what you are looking for?

The abomination causes the desolation of the inner temple and was fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans and since the Book of Revelation was written after that event we know that the Temple was to be rebuilt so that a similar type of event could happen. The question is who are the people that are responsible for rebuilding of the temple and the answer to this question is also shown in Revelation.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe the abomination is in fact the Dome of the Rock itself. Maybe it is something that existed there before its construction, or after its destruction. Maybe, just maybe, it is a configuration of stars in ancient constellations and astrology.

---

One of the biggest problems facing people who buy into Revelations is that the supposed experts keep changin their stories. Hal Lindsey is famous for writing books that keep getting it wrong. So too are others. The reason is because they keep trying to fit their ideas into modern day, and while it may work for a while, it doesn't stand up. So, if someone like Lindsey who likes this stuff day in day out is constantly making errors, what's to say that your school of thought is any more right?

---

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 8:57 AM

Now, for the really big problem that is facing your theory. The words of Christ himself. Let's have a look at Matthew 24....I'm truncating some parts...

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

---this has happened already. The Temple no longer exists.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

--- very important part...remember not to be deceived.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

--- sounds like Christ anticipated the Book of Revelations.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

---again, since the Book of Revelations focuses on wars quite a bit, and rumours of wars, it seems to fit quite well with Christ anticipating Revelations.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

--- this tells us little because all these things are constants on the planet, so without knowing the degree we cannot know when the beginning of sorrows truly begins. But it should be safe to say that these things will occur simutaneously and to a larger degree than has been seen before.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

--- again, too ambigous to pin down completely since it can be interpreted a few different ways, but we are looking at the true followers of the Christ message as opposed to any particular group of people.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

--- we're getting close to that one.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

--- there has never been a drought of these types. We've got Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and John the Divine.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

--- an exponential result of urbanisation

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

--- this is where those who are saved are identified. Notice how the number of those is not listed, and it comes down to the individual to decide their salvation by enduring?

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

--- Done.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

--- Here it is. It's an event that triggers a reaction. Based on the reaction, time is of the essence. This leads to the suggestion that it is something seen in the stars.

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

--- again, we see that time is of the essence since hours appear to matter.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

--- the only thing I can think of that could cause this type of catastrophy is a pole shift. Or the events leading up to it more precisely.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

--- pretty much shows that there will be survivors and that it is only the beginning of things.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

---not a day goes by that this doesn't happen somwhere in the world. As much has to do with speculation on the Book of Revelations.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

---ah....just like the Book of Revelations has deceived all those who subscribe to it. You can't say that the Chruch Fathers who chose to include it in the Bible aren't considered the "very elect." and those same leaders of Christian religions who buy into it aren't the very same "elect." or else, who would it be? (we can also include the Fatima visions in this)

25Behold, I have told you before.

---Christ's prophecy about the Book of Revelations?

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

--- include in that visions too.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

---Here we begin a description of a celestial happening in the form of a comet or other body.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

----Certainly not John the Divine. In fact, why wouldn't Christ mention that more information would be coming from John? And this is very important because here we have Christ giving his version of the event, and at no time does he indicate that any new information would be forthcoming. What he does state is that any new information should be discarded.

So here is your problem....How can anyone take the Book of Revelations as anything but a deception as prophesied by Christ? There isn't the slightest opening in Christ's words to allow for new information from John the Divine, yet twice he talks about people deceiving others by invoking the name of Christ, which is what John does.

Godsgifttomankind

Jan 3rd, 2005, 11:39 AM

Hello Skippy,

A very interesting presentation.

Christ is saying if any one comes in my name do not follow, this is a direct reference to any individual claiming that they are Christ returned. It does not have anything to do with visions received by John, for John was not saying come and follow me I am Christ. John was given a message and that message did nothing to improve his situation and was only found after his death.

Christ talked extensively about false prophecy and shepherds that would sneak in over the wall. He also told how to tell the difference between a false prophet and a true prophet. He said you will know them by their fruit, now what does the reference to fruit speak of?

The fruit is speaking not only of their character and actions but is also of when they prophecise is it fulfilled or were they just petting their own egos.

You have mentioned the names and accounts of individuals whose fruit has gone rotten while still hanging on the tree.

It is my intention to prove that the fruit of Revelation has been preserved so well that it is now possible for everyone, including a small child to recognize it's fulfillment and taste of the fruit.

This means that you will have to for the moment put your understandings on the shelf, for as long as you believe that Revelation is false prophecy it is impossible for me to prove other wise. This is because you have it set in your mind that such is the case and there is no room to examine the case that I am attempting to present.
By putting your understandings on the shelf, where you can retrieve them at any time it allows the opportunity to test the evidence that is placed before you on it's own merits. If it does not meet the desired burden of proof that is needed it is just a matter of moving on and leaving it all behind. If the burden of proof is met then it would open a whole new avenue of understanding. It is a door that you can go through if you wish but there is no one forcing you to enter for that is were freewill comes into play.

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 12:00 PM

Hello Skippy,
This means that you will have to for the moment put your understandings on the shelf, for as long as you believe that Revelation is false prophecy it is impossible for me to prove other wise. This is because you have it set in your mind that such is the case and there is no room to examine the case that I am attempting to present.

Yes, Christ did state that you will know them by their deeds, and this is the basis of my belief that the Book of Revelation is prophesy fulfilled, not prophesy in and of itself.

Sure you can string together all kinds of arguments to support your belief in the prophesy of Revelations, but so too do people who believe in Nostradamus, who, incidentally did not profit from his visions because they were only released after his death too.

I mentioned Hal Lindsey because he is part of your club. He's been stringing together arguments to show the Book of Revelation being fulfilled since the 70s. And every time something doesn't fit his version, he changes it. How can anyone be so sure that your version is any more accurate? Or do you just retrofit as is necessary.

While it may not be your intention, at times you appear a bit patronising towards me as if I haven't been looking into this topic for more than a week. This is where you are quite wrong. I have spent years examining this very topic, and it is only after a very long time was I able to come to the conclusion that the Book of Revelation isn't prophesy itself, but prophesy fulfilled.

Your response that I must open my mind is the same as saying that I must have faith. But this is where your argument falls completely to pieces because the Book of Revelation is not, never was, nor ever will be an article of faith. Faith need not
be a part of it since widsom is what is called for by Christ, and watching the signs that He presented. The moment you make this about faith, you're selling me snake oil because a true Christian could never put their faith anywhere except in Christ.

You still have not overcome that stumbling block that is Christ's very words. Simply saying that yours is not a false prophet s not good enough. As I said before, the prophets preceeding Christ were all able to establish their bona fides within their lifetimes. Now you want me to believe you when you tell me that your prophet isn't a false prophet when:

- We do not know who he is.

- We do not know if he was divinely inspired. (Bush thinks he's acting in the Divine in Iraq, so we can't just take someone's say so.)

- there is overt contradiction to Christ's own end time version.

- you cannot show fulfillement that is beyond reproach, ie. something that can be pinned down very specifically or accurately without stringing together various bits and pieces from all over the place.

- you cannot answer why if the message that is given in Revelations is so important it did not come from Christ himself. Considering your interpretation of the end events places them into this time period, why wouldn't Christ have delivered a much different message, i.e. a the complete version in Revelations? Why then wouldn't have have said that there would be more information coming? In fact, the way Christ puts it, he is quite clear that no information would be coming and all those who profess to have one are deceivers.

Godsgifttomankind

Jan 3rd, 2005, 1:49 PM

Sure you can string together all kinds of arguments to support your belief in the prophesy of Revelations, but so too do people who believe in Nostradamus, who, incidentally did not profit from his visions because they were only released after his death too.

The difference between John and Nostradamus is that Nostradamus was a biblical scholar and his inspiration came from the bible, including knowledge of the Book of Revelation. John was shown things by God while Nostradamus was interpreting things which he read to predict the future.

I mentioned Hal Lindsey because he is part of your club. He's been stringing together arguments to show the Book of Revelation being fulfilled since the 70s. And every time something doesn't fit his version, he changes it. How can anyone be so sure that your version is any more accurate? Or do you just retrofit as is necessary.

This is a very good question and the best answer to this and the difference between myself and Mr. Lindsey is that I am looking at what is written and connecting it to what has happened to prove what has been revealed by God for this Day. Mr. Lindsay is attempting to predict the future using Revelation and this is a very dangerous path to follow as you have stated so well.

While it may not be your intention, at times you appear a bit patronising towards me as if I haven't been looking into this topic for more than a week. This is where you are quite wrong. I have spent years examining this very topic, and it is only after a very long time was I able to come to the conclusion that the Book of Revelation isn't prophesy itself, but prophesy fulfilled.

I believe that you misunderstand my actions as being anything but patience, you have your way that you see things and I have mine. We are in so many ways very similar you want me to examine your understanding and I want you to examine mine. The problem here is that you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine and said that given the opportunity I could prove the claims that I have made. You agreed to look at my evidence but have not allowed the opportunity for the evidence to be set forth for examination. The appearance of being patronizing could be due to the kangaroo court appearance of your judgement on this matter.

Your response that I must open my mind is the same as saying that I must have faith. But this is where your argument falls completely to pieces because the Book of Revelation is not, never was, nor ever will be an article of faith. Faith need not
be a part of it since widsom is what is called for by Christ, and watching the signs that He presented. The moment you make this about faith, you're selling me snake oil because a true Christian could never put their faith anywhere except in Christ.

I am a scientist that bases things on clear multideterminational evidence, to me faith is based upon that evidence. I would never ask anyone to take something based only on faith but based upon clear and concise evidence. When I asked you to put your understanding on the shelf, was only so that you could examine for it's own merits the evidence that I will place before you. The problem that is happening right now is that the evidence has not yet been presented and yet you are already arguing the case of the defence. Your role if you have truly agreed to examine what I present to you is that of the Jury, to understand the case that is being set before you and judge based upon that evidence. This is why I have called it a kangaroo court, you have predetermined the outcome and failed to do justice to the evidence that is yet to be placed before you. A, B and C were false prophets thus D also must be a false prophet and therefore I will shut my ears and close my eyes. This is exactly what Christ warned people about, be watchful but if you have immersed yourself in measure upon measure of false prophecy and as a prophecy pathologist have been expelled and refuse to examine anything else you have fallen into the same pit that the Pharisees had placed themselves and missed the opportunity to enter the door of the kingdom of God.

You still have not overcome that stumbling block that is Christ's very words. Simply saying that yours is not a false prophet s not good enough. As I said before, the prophets preceeding Christ were all able to establish their bona fides within their lifetimes. Now you want me to believe you when you tell me that your prophet isn't a false prophet when:

- We do not know who he is.

Then clearly it is time to examine the fruit, and clearly with all of you knowledge of the Bible and Revelation you have the measuring stick which that fruit can be measured.

- We do not know if he was divinely inspired. (Bush thinks he's acting in the Divine in Iraq, so we can't just take someone's say so.)

- there is overt contradiction to Christ's own end time version.

- you cannot show fulfillement that is beyond reproach, ie. something that can be pinned down very specifically or accurately without stringing together various bits and pieces from all over the place.

Revelation could be compared to a large paint by number canvas and the other books of the Bible are the different paints that are to be applied to the canvas, many would be painter apply the paint in the ways that they believe will produce a masterpiece but only by the hand of a great master such as Christ or God himself can the canvas truly be given the life and Glory that is it's potential. I am not in any way attempting to put the colours on the canvas, only to explain the colours that have been put on the canvas by God himself. When the master piece is fully examined all the connections have been made there is no contradiction between the words of Christ and what is written in Revelation. It becomes very clear that the only contradiction that ever existed was that of the understanding of men.

- you cannot answer why if the message that is given in Revelations is so important it did not come from Christ himself. Considering your interpretation of the end events places them into this time period, why wouldn't Christ have delivered a much different message, i.e. a the complete version in Revelations? Why then wouldn't have have said that there would be more information coming? In fact, the way Christ puts it, he is quite clear that no information would be coming and all those who profess to have one are deceivers.

John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 3:17 PM

The difference between John and Nostradamus is that Nostradamus was a biblical scholar and his inspiration came from the bible, including knowledge of the Book of Revelation. John was shown things by God while Nostradamus was interpreting things which he read to predict the future.

[QUOTE=Godsgifttomankind]This is a very good question and the best answer to this and the difference between myself and Mr. Lindsey is that I am looking at what is written and connecting it to what has happened to prove what has been revealed by God for this Day. Mr. Lindsay is attempting to predict the future using Revelation and this is a very dangerous path to follow as you have stated so well.

So essentially you aren't as prepared to extrapolate your connections into the future. So then what purpose does Revelation fulfill?

I believe that you misunderstand my actions as being anything but patience,
As I have shown you patience as well. So far, you haven't put anything on the table yet, except for that piece where you attempt to identify Islam in Revelations. And then you do it without coming out and saying it, but not without mentioning how you were doing it in another thread. So, enough with the fluff and magic show, get to the meat of it.

you have your way that you see things and I have mine. We are in so many ways very similar you want me to examine your understanding and I want you to examine mine. The problem here is that you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine and said that given the opportunity I could prove the claims that I have made. You agreed to look at my evidence but have not allowed the opportunity for the evidence to be set forth for examination. The appearance of being patronizing could be due to the kangaroo court appearance of your judgement on this matter.

Or, more likely your lack of putting out your evidence. I was quite clear that I would look at it, yet I have not "prevented" you from posting anything. I'm just not buying into it. Got anything else to show me?

I am a scientist that bases things on clear multideterminational evidence, to me faith is based upon that evidence. I would never ask anyone to take something based only on faith but based upon clear and concise evidence. When I asked you to put your understanding on the shelf, was only so that you could examine for it's own merits the evidence that I will place before you. The problem that is happening right now is that the evidence has not yet been presented and yet you are already arguing the case of the defence.

Then, present your evidence.

Your role if you have truly agreed to examine what I present to you is that of the Jury, to understand the case that is being set before you and judge based upon that evidence. This is why I have called it a kangaroo court, you have predetermined the outcome and failed to do justice to the evidence that is yet to be placed before you.

Wrong, I am the appeals court. The judge and jury are to know nothing of the case. The Appeals court looks at the evidence again to see if the original case had merit. In this case, I have already looked into the Book of Revelations. I have studied it closely, and I have examined the Chist message a lot more than you may think I have. When I first posted here, I clearly stated that I have been studying religions for a very long time. You seem to forget this, and while taking a wild guess, I'd put you not further than the 5 year mark on your own studies. (feel free to correct me) So it isn't as if I am a total newbie that is just falling into this topic not knowing if my arse is punched or bored.

A, B and C were false prophets thus D also must be a false prophet and therefore I will shut my ears and close my eyes. This is exactly what Christ warned people about, be watchful but if you have immersed yourself in measure upon measure of false prophecy and as a prophecy pathologist have been expelled and refuse to examine anything else you have fallen into the same pit that the Pharisees had placed themselves and missed the opportunity to enter the door of the kingdom of God.

I'm sorry? Where the hell does that come from. Belief in the prophecy of Revelation has nothing to do with entrance into the Kingdom of God. (Or else Christ might have mentioned it)

Then clearly it is time to examine the fruit, and clearly with all of you knowledge of the Bible and Revelation you have the measuring stick which that fruit can be measured.

Sure, so present your argument. We have already established that John Divine is not John the Apostle, therefore, what's left to examine?

Revelation could be compared to a large paint by number canvas and the other books of the Bible are the different paints that are to be applied to the canvas, many would be painter apply the paint in the ways that they believe will produce a masterpiece but only by the hand of a great master such as Christ or God himself can the canvas truly be given the life and Glory that is it's potential. I am not in any way attempting to put the colours on the canvas, only to explain the colours that have been put on the canvas by God himself. When the master piece is fully examined all the connections have been made there is no contradiction between the words of Christ and what is written in Revelation. It becomes very clear that the only contradiction that ever existed was that of the understanding of men.

Bad analogy. Art appreciation is all about taking from a painting what is personal to you. Unless we want to say that Revelations is an illustration, in which case, an illustration is obvious to the untrained eye.

John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Well, if you read the chapter before and after, it sounds a lot like he is talking about his resurrection. It doesn't hold as much strength that he is predicting the Book of Revelation.

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 3:35 PM

Rather than edit my previous post, this is easier to attach to the back. John 16 is still in debate conserning translation issues, and insertions. There is a school of thought that presents this as being the prophesy of Mohammed.

Godsgifttomankind

Jan 3rd, 2005, 5:28 PM

Hang-on Skippy here we go!

Let's review the previous points and connections.

Revelation 12

Woman = Hagar
-flees to desert 1260 days
-son is taken up to God - Ascension
-rules with rod of iron

Revelation 19
-rules with rod of iron
-treads the winepress of the wrath of God
-garments dipped in blood

Isaiah 63
-comes from deep in Edom
-mighty to save
-treads the winepress
-garments sprinkled with blood
-His sword and arm brought salvation
-recalls the days when Christ brings salvation to Israel
-a people separate from Israel
-children of Abraham that had been rejected
-their advasaries cause the desecration of the temple.

Moving on now let us look at Isaiah 19 starting at verse 20 were Isaiah tells us that Egypt is to receive a savior and defender. We are told that when the savior comes to Egypt that in that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria and that all these people will worship together and in that day Israel will be the third. Verse 25 having these strong words "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."
History shows us that the only time that Assyria and Egypt stopped their deadly feuding to become one nation was in the 7th century by the Muslim conquerors. At that time the official language of Egypt was Arabic which is identical to the language of Canaan. One of the five major cities in Egypt was On or Heliopolis and in verse 18 is called the City of Destruction and it was also during this time that On was destroyed and the capital was moved to Cairo by the Muslim conquerors.

more to follow

Skippy

Jan 3rd, 2005, 8:32 PM

Perhaps have a look at this article...."The book is to be understood preteristically, rather than futuristically. We learn this not only from the imminent expectation in the book, but also from its theme (which involves the judgment of the Jews) and due to its leading characters: Jerusalem (as a harlot) and Rome (as a Beast)."

http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/Gentry/revelation.htm

Skippy

Jan 4th, 2005, 9:15 AM

Came across this and thought you'd like to read it. Sanhedrin re-established...Temple restablished? (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=73311)

autryn2

Jan 5th, 2005, 5:39 PM

GGTM wrote: "A prophet that has a dream knows if it is prophecy or just a personal dream".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure of this??? God gave me a vision. I know for a fact that it was a vision (not just a dream) but I don't know if it is prophecy, and I also don't know if it happens to me or someone else. Worst of all I don't know what to do with the vision. Keep it to myself... tell a friend or two (I've done this).... tell my preacher (I've done this)...tell my congregation...tell everyone. Who knows???

I also don't know WHEN it happens but its' important..... and no, I'm NOT going to tell it here for all these non-believers to read and try to poke holes in. They don't have a clue.

David... what do YOU think I should do??? (I am deadly serious... this is NO JOKE).

I've been carrying around this info since about 1999 and yes, I've prayed to God and asked Him what I need to do but... until now... no answer.

My best answer so far has been: all in His Time, not mine....

Godsgifttomankind

Jan 5th, 2005, 6:57 PM

Hello Autryn2,

I can understand your reluctance to share your dream on this forum.

Dreams can be something very special, a conversation of the spirit; and can have great meaning for you or even on a larger scale. They can also be the work of a very active imagination and have no meaning at all. Normally there are clear signs or symbols that indicate the authenticity of a dream.

The difference between a dream and a vision has to do with your conscious state, everyone has dreams while they sleep this is a normal part of daily event processing.
A vision happens while a person is still conscious but in an altered state of consciousness.

I have had a fair amount of experience with visions and have quite a good understanding of Biblical symbols. If you want you could send me a PM with part or the whole and I could attempt to explain some of the symbolisms there in.
Visions are normally a way of communicating that something is explain and then through the passing of time when that vision is fulfilled it is possible to recognize that you are where you need to be.

Having a vision does not make a person a prophet, but in most cases it does say that it is time to pay attention and listen.

I will not be offended if you pass on this offer and carry on waiting.

Cattt

Jan 18th, 2005, 7:31 PM

Hi Autryn,

What is the dream about? Please email me here or at Cattt01@yahoo.com
I am interested in knowing what it's about because I get 'em too. :2thumbs:

Cattt

repentantsinner

Jan 19th, 2005, 5:22 PM

Hey David hows it going? Nowhere in the end times prophecies is the USA mentioned and people wonder about it. Speaking of the women the birth and the dragon though it says she was given the wings of a great eagle to flee to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Is it your opinion there will be a church revival in the US at the end. At other sites people believe it to mean an airplane.

Godsgifttomankind

Jan 20th, 2005, 4:09 PM

Hello RPS, all is well and thank-you for your concerns and question,

Hey David hows it going? Nowhere in the end times prophecies is the USA mentioned and people wonder about it. Speaking of the women the birth and the dragon though it says she was given the wings of a great eagle to flee to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Is it your opinion there will be a church revival in the US at the end. At other sites people believe it to mean an airplane.

The challenge in dealing with the Bible in regards to prophecy is one of connecting names as they change through different books of the Bible as well as through history in general. Lands are named after the people that inhabit that particular region and in time even are changed by different ways that people say the same names due to languages. One thing that always stays the same is directions and thus the easiest way to recognize North America is that it lies to the west and also referred to as western culture. The prophecies in the Bible speak of the west in very glowing terms and it is my understanding that America is to play a large spiritual role in endtime prophecies, being the lands that lead in the realms of freedom and emancipation generally. I am also aware of prophecies that speak of the cataclysmic events that will bind the nations of America with sister nations to prepare them for their roles as agents of the one true God.

This revival that you speak about is a definite fact and must be understood as it pertains and not as people desire. Church and body are all words that are used to explain the congregation on a whole. It is not a building but a divinely inspired institution or collective of people chosen by God for His purpose and is not a revival as most would believe. It is the reanimation of the word of God through people that are outside the man made corporate structure of the church like the example of the first disciples. In this example they were not leaders of the synagogue but where common people chosen because of their low status so that God could use them, in raising them to a great position and giving them great wisdom. This is the way that God always acts taking the person that to men are last and putting them in the position of being first, while those that believed that they were in the first position and would be joined by God to annihilate their enemies, where lowered to last position and faced their own demise. Thus it is that we know that the meek shall inherit the earth.

LC Jeffries

Jan 20th, 2005, 6:32 PM

Skippy wrote:

Uh nope. I did not question its authenticity, I questioned its authority. A really big difference, and if you like, if you can establish its authority, then we can always examine its authenticity.

Skippy wrote:

Sorry, I know I here a little late on this subject. But if you ask the question 'Why would God reveal Himself and when he does, do we understand why. Scripture is God speaking to man and walking with man.

When God created Adam, he was right there talking and and walking with him. (Adam) Genesis 2:8 He later then revealed himself to Abraham and all the other prophets of the Old Testament and in Act's the New Testament prophets.

As Christ, He preached one on one as a man to other men. Christ encouraged his followers to use their authority to preach the gospel and write his words out for all of mankind.

This is understandable in the fact that as intelligent beings, we can measure distances, we know the signs in nature of a pending storm, we are inventive and philosophical.

Today, many people are looking everywhere for the answers of life. We wonder why we are here and search everywhere accept inside one's self and inside scriptures. The scriptures are written by man under the authority of Our Creator. Revelation is, rather then showing us how to find God, really is God has already found us. He shows us words that reveal Himself in words in which we can understand.

:2thumbs: :prin:

dkjmp

Jan 22nd, 2005, 6:29 PM

You should believe in God and the law of God. All are created equal with equal rights accept all people. Do not kill, steal, bear false witness against another or covet. Most of do not commit adultery, change the words of God.

Some have asked if the Pope knew what he was talking about, he does. Many things have been happening that not all know about but a great deal do know about. There is a book that is going around that tells the story, you can get a copy of it.

In comments before 7,000 people attending the General Papal Audience yesterday at the Vatican, Pope John Paul II commented on the Apocalypse, saying that the increase in violence and injustice in the world is the work of a furious Satan who doesn't have "much time left" and ultimately will be defeated.
According to a report in the Italian website AGI online, the pope said, "God and the Lamb, Christ, surrounded by the 'Council of the Crown,' are judging human history in good and evil, but showing us however the ultimate end in salvation and glory. The songs which are found in the Apocalypse and which serve to illustrate the issue of divine glory which regulates the flux, often disconcerting, of the tide of human events."

You can get the complete book from the US Justice Department, the Secret Service, the President, the UN, CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, BBC, or any of these listed below it started Aug. 16, 2003 with Treason charges against the United States and goes day to day from then. The Book is nothing but truth, governments are told first then the public is told. Just ask them for the Book of Daniel.

You should read the book and learn what all these people know that they aren’t telling you. Has to do with preaching to the world, the end of time and things like that. Oh by the way it is also all true and in the book it tells all how to check it out, you know to check the fact that it is all true, you know the two witnesses. Ask anyone listed below about Adair, better yet just ask them for the book and see if they give it to you, I bet they don’t. If they don’t I will.

Daniel Parks

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