Would you forgive Hitler?

[armageddononline]

This isn't just to Christians.

Suppose instead of killing himself in his bunker, Hitler "saw the light" and realised he'd done a lot of wrong. He repented, prayed, felt truly sorry and resolved to spend the rest of his life and political genious helping the Jews.

So, would you forgive him or just have him brutally executed?

[Mensa Genius]

who has the right to forgive hitler?

[DigglerD]

The world would never let it happen.

Russia, France, UK, the US, Gypsies, Pollocks, Jews...

Millions of people and countless cultures would all have to forget and forgive. Not only this, they would have to go further and listen to his input and allow him to continue work.

Would I forgive him is I knew for a FACT that he was genuinely sorry (although this we could never know) I would say HELL YES. Hitler was a genius and could do many great things given his mind was set to a positive task. Look at it, he took a war ravaged, poverty stricken Germany and almost took over the world...the man was evil but the man had skills...

[mickydoolittle]

You nor those who responded have the right to offer forgiveness to Hitler. You were not directly affected by his actions and have no reason to offer to forgive him.

The only one's who have any reason or link to forgive him are the ones who survived the death camps and those who were killed by his actions.

This post is an attempt at GOOD discussion, but fundamentally flawed from the on-set.

Nice try tho.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[armageddononline]

Yes good point - you knew what I meant though :p

I shall rephrase: Are Hitler's actions forgivable? If you were a war-crimes judge would you punish the reformed Hitler? If you had been in the death camps, and seen the death of your family, would you always just want revenge? Should God condemn him to Hell or send him to heaven like the one on the road to Damascus?

[mickydoolittle]

ANYTHING is forgiveable, it's just a matter of the mindset of the person doing the forgiving.

It's not up to us to decide...it doesn't appear that anyone here was directly affected by hitler's actions.

Regardless of whether hitler reformed, his actions were truely crimes against humanity and those are and always will be punishable--hopefully to the fullest extent of the law.

See, now the parable about Saul becoming Paul is just that a parable about changing one's ways before it is too late. Nothing more--and god doesn't care one way or the other since humanity killed its son.

Revenge is always present--you don't need to be affected directly to wish to seek revenge. I think that if one had witnessed the death of one's family, the outlook on life is drastically different than the outlook you or I share and the mindset is as drastically different as well. I can't answer that one.

If there is a hell, do you really think satan wants hitler there? It ain't like in Little Nicky where hitler gets pineapples shoved up his ass and walks around in a french maid outfit.

But remember:
"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[1ifbyland2ifbysea]

Paul gathered the believers to be imprisoned and some were killed for thier beliefs in the end Paul was imprisioned and died for those same beliefs..


think hitler might have spent the last 50 years converting
people to judahism become a jew himself then die in prison some where for his jewish faith that would show he was serious about his repentence.. but only God knows the heart.. see ,thats what paul's conversion was about.

[mickydoolittle]

Nothing more. The theme of hitler changing his ways as proof of repentance or reformity is still coming up. This doesn't matter except to those who he worked over.

It isn't our place to offer forgiveness. It is our place as society to punish him for his actions. What would it matter if hitler had spent his final 50 yrs campainging for the jews?

What does society do with a dog who attacks people? Society kills it.

Why?

Because Society knows it will kill again if the occasion arises.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[DigglerD]

That's interesting, so society can only punish and not forgive?

First the dog analysis does not apply because a dog is absent of rational thought. However, I agree and disagree. On the one hand, you have a person that shows what he is capable of and scociety, in your view, would punish him not because of his past but because of his potential to do it again. Here is my conflict, I do beleive that past actions predict future actions BUT do you honestly think Hitler would be able to start another Brown Short > SS > Nazi party? think nobody would notice? I mean he's Hitler for christs sake; besides in this example there is genuine repentance. In the absence of this repentance sure maybe we should kill him.

But back to the issue...forgiveness. In your model society can only do but one thing...punish. Is that a society you want to live in?

[VegasRonin]

To forgive is Divine. Last time I checked I was 100% mortal, no Divinty here, and No Forgivness!

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Quote: "You were not directly affected by his actions and have no reason to offer to forgive him".
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I beg to differ. The entire world is now changed because of Hitler's aggression. Saddam Hussein was compared to Hitler numerous times here in the U.S. as having Hitler type ambitions. In effect Hitler has changed U.S's preemptive strike doctrine. I'm sure Iraq won't be the sole benificiary of this New Doctrine. So you see, Hitler may have caused <strong>World War III</strong> too.

[VegasRonin]

Oh yeah, <strong>EXECUTED</strong>!

[mickydoolittle]

Did hitler kill your family members? Were you in the death camps during camp operation under hitler's command?

Were you terrorized or tortured under the regime of sadaam?

NO. No, you were not. So you were not afffected by sadaams actions, you felt the REACTION to sadaam's actions by GWB.

The repercussions from GWB's actions are what you are experiencing. Sadaam did not one thing to affect you.

Hitler no more caused WWIII than mother teresa...this a reach with a purely speculative foundation. And you know what that means. . .That's as bad as two crazed freaks in the depths of an ether binge.

Come on--You were on role with GOOD arguments, but nothing in this last post to show your intellect. I know you're clearly smarter than this tripe.

"micky 'I'm an opinionated bastard' doolittle".
-MD-

[VegasRonin]

Quote: Were you terrorized or tortured under the regime of sadaam?

NO. No, you were not. So you were not affected by sadaams actions, you felt the REACTION to sadaam's actions by GWB.
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I wasn't terrorized or tortured by Sadaams Regime but I had my jaw broken and 3 teeth knocked out by a member of The Republican Guard. My unit was conducting an Extraction at the Al Mutla Ridge Complex,and a Republican Guard Soldier and I surprised each other. He hit me with his rifle butt, but he ate a grenade in the process. So forgive me if I come across a little biased.

[VegasRonin]

Changed my mind. Don't forgive me, I kind of like being Jaded at times. :evil:

[dutchie]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>ANYTHING is forgiveable, it's just a matter of the mindset of the person doing the forgiving. It's not up to us to decide...it doesn't appear that anyone here was directly affected by hitler's actions.[/quote]
Micky, I think that these sentences - that immidiately follow eachother - form a little paradox, and I just cannot resist paradoxes...

If ANYTHING is forgiveable, then you've made that decision: YOU can forgive anything. The decision what should be done with someone that commits a crime is not ours, that is something we democratically decided to be in the hands of the legislative powers. The question Mike posed was concerned with your personal attitude toward forgiveness. It is of course very well possible to forgive the murderer that killed your wife (or the republican guard that broke your jaw??) personally, without taking away the punishment (=revenge) that society demands. So it all boils down to what <em>you</em> do with it...

[mickydoolittle]

So, what do the newer members have to post about this topic?

[honeycomb]

if he repents with a good heart, why not? an enlightened man can make drastic changes in his life. & isn't forgiveness a virtue? anyway, in my religion, it was taught that if a bad people (who previously wants to harm me), suddenly mend his ways & wanna make peace - forgiveness is the best thing to do. BUT it must be added it with a trust in God too... so that if the guy is just playing, God will help us.

just trust in God & forgive.

[Kohler]

if he repents with a good heart, why not? an enlightened man can make drastic changes in his life. & isn't forgiveness a virtue? anyway, in my religion, it was taught that if a bad people (who previously wants to harm me), suddenly mend his ways & wanna make peace - forgiveness is the best thing to do. BUT it must be added it with a trust in God too... so that if the guy is just playing, God will help us.

just trust in God & forgive.

Because I wasn't alive during WWII, I'm sure I don't have the same hatred towards him that America did back in the Early 40's. But based upon the pictures that I've seen of hundreds if not thousands of dead, starved and deprived innocent Jews piled on top of eachother like laundry... all because this one man had 'issues' with them; yes... I think its safe to say that I would not forgive him. And if I was the one who found him in his bunker, alive, I would have killed him faster then the blink of an eye. :shot:

[Edge]

I'd forgive him regaurdless of wether or not he repented etc. On the basis that I have not been detrementally effected by his actions.*

America didn't have a hatred of Hitler durring or before WWII. They did have a hatred of the Japanese.

*This doesn't mean that he'd go free. He'd still be trailed and convicted thanks to the large amount of documentation he had ordered. What he would be charged with I can't say either death or inprisionment, but which I don't know.

Also enough with the trust in god crap.

[dutchie]

I have been given enough reliable information and evidenve to decide on the fact that I would NOT be able to forgive Hitler.

Being unable to kill anyone, I would turn him over to the legislative powers. As I am convinced that a lifelong sentence is more gruesome and more harsh than the death penalty, I would wish that he would get life in prison. But I would not want to influence the judges decision.

[Cherokee Visionary]

well, it disturbs me greatly to hear that people could ever even comprehend forgiving Hitler for his crimes against humanity, :mad: .

Hitler was not a human, he was a abomination of all that is wrong with humanity...

:bs:

[Hoodlum]

I feel he was not worthy of living, so he had to kill people to feel better about himself. No forgiveness for killing innocents. If anyone sayss they would forgive him, i pity your soul. This spineless worm had brought upon one of the most horrid times, he was such a pussy he couldnt even take a punishment like a man, instead he shot himself like a little bitch. I hope i find this fairy in hell and personally torture him for 1000 years? Anyone else for a thousand? Grants you free entrance into heaven!

[Cherokee Visionary]

well said Hoodlum, well said
:pimp:

[SeekNDestroy]

I feel he was not worthy of living, so he had to kill people to feel better about himself. No forgiveness for killing innocents. If you're going to apply that logic do you have any idea how many people in WW2 would be guilty? A very substantial part of the German army was involved in the holocaust, but on top of that we've got all our bomber pilots who killed innocent German civilians, and do some research into the crimes committed by the Russian army. This isn't at all a defence of Hitler, but don't think because he's evil our side were saints.


If anyone sayss they would forgive him, i pity your soul. Since when did forgiveness become a sin?

I hope i find this fairy in hell and personally torture him for 1000 years? Anyone else for a thousand? Grants you free entrance into heaven! Since when did torture become a virtue?

[Chris4334]

Kohler Wrote:

But based upon the pictures that I've seen of hundreds if not thousands of dead, starved and deprived innocent Jews piled on top of eachother like laundry...

Try six million...


If someone truly, in their heart, regrets an action, they should be forgiven. The problem is that no one can know another's heart, and thus we must punish even those who might be repentant.

If there is a god, He will know whether to forgive or not. But even for a man who ordered the deaths of 6 million people, doesn't eternity sound a but much?

[Wraith13]

I can't personally hold what he did against him. Before someone accuses me of sympathizing with the guy, let me explain. It didn't affect me, therefore I can not judge him, nor give forgiveness, because I can't really comprehend personally what happened. This of course is different for someone who was affected by his actions. As a person I find his acts to be almost tangible evidence of Lucifer, for what human could come up with such a scheme and not be evil? Sure, people can do some pretty bad things, but something like this would take someone who is able to deceive the nations and even his own people and somehow convince them it's 'right'. It's not for me to forgive Hitler, it's for each person who's lives was affected by his horrendous acts to either forgive him or not.

[Strife]

Would you forgive Hitler? No. The man comes close to Satan on earth. Honestly, it's up to God to forgive.
Are his actions forgivable? No, at least not to me.

I see it this way. If this man were to succeed in his goals, me, my family, my friends (those non ‘Aryan’), and all those who didn’t meet by his standards, wouldn’t be living to this day if possible. I wouldn’t forgive a man who desired such a sick plan for his personal view of world perfection.

[Edge]

Bah Starlin did worse and Christianity has done worse (as have most religions).

[Hoodlum]

Forgiveness is only in the mind, it doesnt count for anything. As for the countless others who were involved, are all guilty as well, and should have been punished severely for there crimes against humanity. BTW I dont believe in sins, i just think that forgiving murder is despicable. Try forgiving someone that murdered YOUR loved one. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...

[Kohler]

Bah Starlin did worse and Christianity has done worse (as have most religions).

Stalin was evil too, but Hitler was worse.

[Hoodlum]

You cant measure a person too be more evil than the other. Killing innocent people is horrible evil no matter how you put it and they are not forgivable. Nothing is more wrong than ending the lives of innocents. Each life is just as significant as the other..

[mickydoolittle]

Bah Starlin did worse and Christianity has done worse (as have most religions).


Stalin was evil too, but Hitler was worse.

Hmm, I'd like to read why you each think the one was worse than the other. If it's not too hard for you to accomplish. . . .

[SeekNDestroy]

Micky: I can't remember the exact numbers, but Stalin killed far far more of his own people than Hitler killed Jews.


You cant measure a person too be more evil than the other. Killing innocent people is horrible evil no matter how you put it and they are not forgivable.
As for the countless others who were involved, are all guilty as well, and should have been punished severely for there crimes against humanity It must be really comforting for you to say that. But I wonder, if you'd grown up in Nazi Germany, what would you have done? Why did so many Germans commit so many atrocities - are they just genetically evil, or were they corrupted by the nature of their society? If the latter, then surely their war crimes were forgivable. Can you honestly say that if you'd had a lifetime of Nazi propaganda then you definately wouldn't have taken part in the holocaust? I can't.

[mickydoolittle]

Yes, Stalin killed about 20~26 million compared to Hitler, who killed about 6 million.

I have a theory as to why the ppl who were quoted in my above post, posted as they did.

I want to know what they, (as well as anyone else who wishes to add productive discussion to the thread) think about the reasoning behind the posted statements concerning the perceived severity of actions.

I await the flooding onslaught of intelligent posts.

[Chris4334]

I want to know what they, (as well as anyone else who wishes to add productive discussion to the thread) think about the reasoning behind the posted statements concerning the perceived severity of actions.

Regardless of the motivations behind a murder, the number of lives lost is what affects the "severity" of an action. Whether your reason for killing millions is politically (Stalin) or racially (Hitler) motivated, a murder is a murder. One murder is horrible, but is preferrable to two murders.

[mickydoolittle]

I don't agree with you, but, you did a very good job with establishing a solid foundation for your argument. It may be a little warped, but damnit kid, you're doing good!

[Chris4334]

So you take the position that the reasons behind an action play a role in how one should be judged? Isn't the result the same in either case mentioned above? What's your specific view?

[mickydoolittle]

You're using the christian viewpoint that sin is sin regardless.

This is totally flawed. If sin were sin, then he who steals should be killed just as he who murders is executed.

Try again.

You were close there....

[dutchie]

Don't be such a patronizing opionated bastard!!! :pyth: :grin

Just answer the goddam question. Heh.

[Chris4334]

This is totally flawed. If sin were sin, then he who steals should be killed just as he murders is executed.

Well, those two things are entirely different when it comes to morality. Stealing is a concept only in Capitalism. Is stealing fundamentally wrong? Does anything really belong to anyone?

Murder on the other hand is very different. We can all agree (I hope) that each person is his own master, and so to remove another's life against their wishes is wrong.

My point in stating the above:

Two things that are fundamental "sins" (this is a bad word to use because of its connections to other things, but whatever), let's say rape and murder, SHOULD have equal punishment. This is very closely related to my point about the number of murders. Every fundamental "sin" or immoral action is of equal weight, and thus should carry equal punishment.



Don't be such a patronizing opionated bastard!!!

It's his rhetoric, Dutchie, let the man work :=)

[mickydoolittle]

Well, those two things are entirely different when it comes to morality. Stealing is a concept only in Capitalism. Is stealing fundamentally wrong? Does anything really belong to anyone?

Wrong. Stealing is not a concept solely exclusive to Capitalism. If this were the case, then why would thieves have hands cut off in the M.E.? Why would cattle rustler's have been hanged in the old west?


Murder on the other hand is very different. We can all agree (I hope) that each person is his own master, and so to remove another's life against their wishes is wrong.

If this were the case, then there would be no court or prison or sentences to be carried out/served.


My point in stating the above:

Two things that are fundamental "sins" (this is a bad word to use because of its connections to other things, but whatever), let's say rape and murder, SHOULD have equal punishment. This is very closely related to my point about the number of murders. Every fundamental "sin" or immoral action is of equal weight, and thus should carry equal punishment.

If one is going to begin grouping crimes into similar categories for equal punishment, how then could one be one's own master? Moreover, how would one seperate the distinction between a crime that affects hundreds of ppl (Enron) vs a crime that affectes a few ppl (Tyco)?

The crime was the same here--theft/fraud/laundering, while the outcomes were different.

[Chris4334]

Stealing is not a concept solely exclusive to Capitalism. If this were the case, then why would thieves have hands cut off in the M.E.? Why would cattle rustler's have been hanged in the old west

Which system do those historic examples more closely resemble, Capitalism or Communism? A bandit robbed a bank for a reason; a thief had his hands cut off because one had to BUY the food in the ME. I would say most historical monetary systems were protoypes of Capitalism.


If this were the case, then there would be no court or prison or sentences to be carried out/served.

We're talking ideals here, not present systems. But obviously anarchy is what we would have if everyone were ENTIRELY free. Anarchy cannot support the large populations we currently have in the world.


The crime was the same here--theft/fraud/laundering, while the outcomes were different.

A crime is the same if the outcome is the same, not because the name is the same. Having group trials is not the right way to go about prosecuting crimes. It's just a way to save time and money.


how would one seperate the distinction between a crime that affects hundreds of ppl (Enron) vs a crime that affectes a few ppl (Tyco

This goes back to the murder example again. Enron stole from thousands of people, Tyco (not as familiar with this case) stole from a smaller group. Two murders vs. one murder (to stay with the metaphor). Both should be punished equally because they have committed the same crime (regardless of the severity).

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Everyone,

I believe that laws were created to protect society and not to punish people.

Perspective has a very large attachment to emotion and thus someone that is directly effected by an even is interested in revenge while a third party can be objective and look for Justice. We rationalize justice as death and yet if it were punishment we were seeking then a life sentence would have greater effect.

The whole question of forgiveness is very important because in order to live ourselves, we must be willing to bury the past and be happy in the future. Anger and guilt are deadly to the soul, being unable to forgive someone means imprisoning your soul in the anger and guilt of the event. Anger is like a rattlesnake, for your safety your must hang onto it and control it but at some point you have to throw it away or else be consumed by it.

We do have a tendency to become very attached to things and when you look around, we see that those that refuse to let go and change; show the battle marks of that fight. It is interesting to see that our reaction to things is actually more devastating to us then the event itself.

We perceive death as something evil, when in fact it is a great and wonderful event. We fear it and place it as a punishment to those that do atrocities and yet if we knew and understood the truth, we would change completely our methods.

This whole thread is one fallacious argument, we have no need to forgive Hitler, only to learn and understand from those actions. On one side we have learned a great deal and yet we still continue to make the same mistakes and allow the same things to happen. We swell our heads with national superiority and individual greatness and walk all over those that we see as inferior. We strive on conflict rather than harmony and understanding, individual desire reigns over global needs. The Spirit of Hitler is alive and well, only the name has been changed to confuse the masses but superiority, racism and nationalism are still alive and well.

David.