Do You Believe In God? [Archive] - Armageddon Online Forums

SkidMark01

Jul 19th, 2003, 7:11 PM

DontBeAfraid
Registered User
Posts: 248
(6/19/03 3:25 am)
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all i see is somebody who draws the completely wrong lines as to where and when to take the bible literally

Godsgifttomankind
Registered User
Posts: 31
(6/23/03 4:11 pm)
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DBA you can see the truth all around you, The fig tree has not only bore leaves but is bearing fruit. All of the prophecies in the Bible point to this time. A time when what has been hidden from the beginning will be revealed. Does it not surprise you we are not in the darkages but have light in our houses. All the wonderous things in the world are shouting out that we are in a special time. But does any one listen? Science has been revealed for a reason to prove the existance of God. How long will we sit and admire the majesty that the hands of man have created and not realise that everything has a creator.

The Human can not have such depth just by mear chance and ignorance is futile from any angle, Religious or Secular.
Man was given a brain to reason and understand, we see what is happening in the name of religion and know it is wrong. The Truth will be revealed and all mankind will issue in The Most Great Peace. This war and strife is cased by the desires of men to control all aspects of their lifes and the lives of the people around them. History has shown us that even children can not be controlled but must be nurtured and guided. A child that is controlled will rebel and all will be lost. Bondage of any type does not work has the American Civil War not taught us anything? That war was started by a rebellion known as the Insurrection, In 1859 at Charleston, South Carolina. Every war has to do with eliminating oppression of any kind. Man knows clearly that they have no need or desire to be oppressed and yet certain individuals and religious groups think that people need to remain in the bondage of Ignorance. God's plan is contrary to this and until people stop their oppression and start opening their hearts and minds to the needs and rights of people as a whole we will be in conflict.People of every age group, race, nation, ability and stature, male or female have and require the same God given rights and freedoms.

Oppression of any kind must stop and it must stop now!!

It is our responsibility to be aware of our own actions as well as the actions of people around us that undermind the growth of any and all individuals in society. Even harsh words and a scathing tongue is as devastating as blows from the fists of a fighter.

God has truly blessed us with signs and wonders.

My eyes are open and I see what majesty has been endowed upon mankind. A majesty yet to be fully revealed when the eyes of all men shall be opened.

DontBeAfraid
Registered User
Posts: 265
(6/24/03 2:08 am)
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I respect your view, but i disagree with it. I have no problem saying that we are smart by chance. Not everything needs a creator to come together. while i cant say i know where anything first came from, i can say that what we have now came from the things before it and mostly by chance.

SkidMark01
Administrator
Posts: 502
(7/18/03 6:01 am)
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Smart by chance aye? We are forever having wars, are divided by religion and are ruled over by leaders who put the economy and financial profits before anything else. Smart aye? I have just read a post which said, "There is no God, only Allah". We'll the only difference between the two are the names. There is only one God, or Allah or whatever you want to call the source. I believe that the energy behind the big bang was God and we are here for a reason, not by chance. I think we are too complex to say we are here by chance. To create anything, you need an energy source to create it. The energy source is God.

mozartkugeln

Jul 19th, 2003, 11:07 PM

evilwill88

Jul 30th, 2003, 6:10 AM

those of you that are christian....... where is your proof? How do you know there is an afterlife?

armageddononline

Jul 30th, 2003, 2:36 PM

Mozart your logic is that playing the percentages, we're better off believing in God. This is an old argument witha couple of problems. Firstly, you can't make yourself believe something. You might be happier if you believed your car was the best car on Earth, but could you simply decide to believe that?

Secondly, if I was God I'd enjoy exclduing anyone claiming to believe in me just to go to heaven :D

evilwill88

Jul 31st, 2003, 6:57 AM

why would anyone be so devoid of common sense and logic as to be moronic enough to believe in god?

SkidMark01

Jul 31st, 2003, 7:42 AM

Why would one have to be devoid of common sense and logic if they choose to believe in God? I dont go to church, am not into the bible, but CHOOSE to believe in God as the source to everything. It makes sense to me. Err, Evil, if it isn't hurting you, than why do you need to mock people for having a belief?. Why do I have to be religious for believing in God?? The world is full of people with their own reasons for believing in something....or not believing in something. Surely we don't need to be mocked for our own beliefs.

armageddononline

Jul 31st, 2003, 7:49 AM

I totally agree with what SKidmark just said. Lots of very intelligent people believe in God, like Stephen Hawking.

And since you've got so much more logic and common sense than me, explain where the universe came from. The matter than made up the Big Bang can't just have spontaneously come out of nowhere. Ergo, something must have created it.

evilwill88

Jul 31st, 2003, 8:02 AM

first of all i'm not trying to mock you believers.......... i don't have proof that god doesn't exist just like you don't have proof that he does exist.....

Your problem is that you (for some reason) crave a purpose and a sense of belonging on earth. I am willing to accept that we don't know why or how we are here.

I tend to go with the big bang theory...... but what makes you think that something had to create it? That is scientific thinking that there must be a cause. But we don't know how everything in the universe works. For all we know it has always been there and always will.

The is no sense in believing in god. There is no proof. If i told you that there is an army of spirits that are going to invade earth but we can't sense them in any fashion and we just have to believe they are there would you believe me?

It's the same concept. A claim is made with not one scrap of evidence to back it up and because you need a reason you choose to con yourself into believing.

We control our lives, not god! We don't know how the earth was created or the life on it. We may never find out or we may eventually but that is no excuse to resort to believing in irrational, illogical stories.

armageddononline

Jul 31st, 2003, 8:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I tend to go with the big bang theory...... but what makes you think that something had to create it? That is scientific thinking that there must be a cause. But we don't know how everything in the universe works. For all we know it has always been there and always will.[/quote] We do know enough about the universe to know that things don't just randomly come into and out of existance. If it's simply always existed, why? Why should space happen to be filled by universe? Are you suggesting that, just randomly, there always was a universe infinitely far back in time.

That's not evidence, it's a proof there must be a God. If you disagree explain what's wrong with the logic.

geoblue

Jul 31st, 2003, 10:37 PM

I do believe in "God"... he is something that exists in people's minds and imaginations.... I personally don't believe that he exists outside of the realm of human thought... but who knows... if I'm going to "hell" for it then I'm looking forward to it... can't imagine how dull "heaven" would be...

geobluexx

matts concepts

Jul 31st, 2003, 11:41 PM

Whats the point in debating whether there is a "god" or not? It has no relevance. The universe has been around for so long that humans have but a small place in the scheme of things. We are here for but a scrap of time. The human race has only been around in all its forms for a million or two years. Life on this planet has only been around for a few hundred million years, yet the universe has been around for quite a few thousand million years. This is so long a time that logic dictates that there must be other forms of life somewhere in the universe. This totally negates the theory of a "god" as nothing can live that long and even if it did wouldn't that god have done something before now? Or is "god" only a new idea bought about by people who have little enough faith in their own destinies to need something other than themselves to be guided by. Get over it and start living for yourselves!:rolleyes:

evilwill88

Aug 1st, 2003, 1:52 AM

my argument does not prove god exists....

Nothing proves that god exists! There is not one bit of proof.

I am merely stating that we don't know how everything happened but that is no reason to go and believe the first "story" you hear.

As i have said. It's for the weak minded that can't accept that we don't know!

armageddononline

Aug 1st, 2003, 2:44 AM

Matts: No-one ever suggested God was a living breathing animal tha could die when it got too old.

Evil: Instead of just repeating the "God doesn't exist, nothing proves it, you're just a weak minded gullible idiot" mantra, could you explain what's wrong with the logic? If not, who's being weak-minded?

evilwill88

Aug 1st, 2003, 3:38 AM

i'll tell you what's wrong...... how does not knowing how our planet or the universe came into existence lead to an almighty powerful being that created it all?

Where is the logic in that? There is none!

God is just a story to comfort people. Something may have created the universe or it may have always existed. We don't know. But there is NO LOGIC in believing that some all powerful being just came along and made it all. That is a pure unproven theory.

armageddononline

Aug 1st, 2003, 4:58 AM

I think you've missed the point.

It's basic science that every cause has an effect. Extrapolating back, there must have been a first cause or there could be no effects. But with no universe, what caused the first cause? The only possible answer is God.

When you've eliminated the impossible whatever's left must be the answer. Unless you can give an alternative explanation for the first cause?

evilwill88

Aug 1st, 2003, 6:23 AM

i think you are missing the point.

We don't know how it started. And we certainly don't know enough about the universe to presume how it was created.

God is not the only possible answer. The fact is we don't know the answer. God is a possibility but not an answer. I know it is basic science but it doesn't mean that's what happened.

Remember matter cannot be destroyed nor created. So how was the universe created. And if there was nothing before the universe then where did god come from? And how did he create matter? We can't be sure that our basic laws of physics aply throughout the entire universe.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 1st, 2003, 6:45 AM

a god is not the only possible answer, its just the most accepted. I say that everything vame from nothing is just as good of an answer as god created it. neither can be explained in the least and at least you dont have to ask where nothing came from like you do with god.

You would get the same answers for both though

what created god - god always was
where did nothing come from - nothing was all there was.

how did god do it - its all powerful and beyond explanation
how did nothing do it - I dont know (paraphrased above)

why did god do it - it was gods will
why would it happen with nothing - nobody knows (paraphrased the god answer)

The god answer is not the only answer and its no more logical than the answer "for no reason at all"

There is also the wave theory out there. I dont know it all that well yet, but from what i can understand it makes some sense.

armageddononline

Aug 1st, 2003, 6:45 AM

Look arund. Can you see matter just coming into being spontaneously? Can you see new universes starting all over the place, just because they feel like it? If not, what makes you think the laws of nature were any different in the past?

Re where God came from. If we accept that something must have existed before the matter and energy that make up the universe (hence, outside time), something that can create matter and energy, then I think God is a reasonable name for it.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 1st, 2003, 7:09 AM

I say that all these universal laws came into being at the same time the universe came from nothing. See, with no laws govern this nothing there can be no stopping the universe from coming into existence, but when the nothing created these laws with the universe it can no longer happen, at least until the next time there is nothing.

armageddononline

Aug 1st, 2003, 7:22 AM

With no laws of nature, nothing is possible. At tehre most fundamental, these laws allow things to happen rather than stopping them.

According to you theory, why is the universe the exact size it is, with the exact laws it has? Just be chance?

DontBeAfraid

Aug 1st, 2003, 3:35 PM

With no laws of nature nothing is IMPOSSIBLE. No laws means no limits on what can happen, laws can only control things. Yes, its the size it is exclusively by chance in my guess.

Im not saying this is an iron-clad guess at the beginnings of the universe, just that it is just as good as the god guess. Neither means anything once the universe has began. Neither is provable once the universe has began. And neither can be proven wrong.

Without the laws of the universe nothing was stopping the universe from creating itself out of nothing. Laws are limiters not catalysts.

armageddononline

Aug 1st, 2003, 4:44 PM

I really don't like the idea that a universe of random size just came into existance, that a certain number of particles happen to be created and no more for no reason.

Another flaw: Space and time are linked; time began with the universe. Without time, things can't happen so no chance event could have occured. You can't say, there was no universe, then an event happened that created one because there was no "before" the universe.

With God, you can avoid this problem because God is presumably not part of the universe and therefore unaffected by time.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 1st, 2003, 7:36 PM

time is another thing that was created with the universe like you said, and the laws that time is the only way anything can happen came into existance with time, so time has no effect on the nothing. In the nothing anything is possible without rhyme or reason. Im not saying there was an event in the nothing, just that the nothing quit being nothing for no reason at all. Its just as logical as the god argument, and nothing is a lot easier to explain than an omnipotent being. You are trying to argue against the nothing with the laws of the universe, you cant do this because the laws of the universe are obviously not nothing they are something and were not a part of the nothing that for no reason at all defined them and the universe. About the particles, maybe they started being created with energy before the law of conservation showed up, again for no reason other than nothing was stopping it. eventually you get all the laws coming from nothing that put each other in check and lock out the nothing.

Hmm, I like my idea much more than I like this whole god thing.

mickydoolittle

Aug 1st, 2003, 9:24 PM

WHY?:evil:

You'd all probably be followers of Jim Jones if he came around today instead of 40 years ago.

Fools.
-MD-

DontBeAfraid

Aug 1st, 2003, 9:31 PM

micky I have to wonder if you even read the posts. I am not arguing what I beleive because I dont beleive anything. I am simply argueing against the god idea with an idea just as credible and just as unexplainable to show that the god answer is not the only one.

Come on man, I usually side with the atheists but you are making it really hard seeing as how you have made no statements for me to help you argue.

evilwill88

Aug 2nd, 2003, 3:12 AM

There is no time. It is a man made concept with no beginning or end.

Time means nothing to the universe only to beings that create it.

armageddononline

Aug 2nd, 2003, 4:02 AM

The problem with your idea is you're defining the 'nothing' before the universe as an infinitely big region with no matter or energy. Nothing, as in no universe, isn't the same as nothing as in a vacuum. The universe hasn't expanded into space, it is space.

Using your logic another universe could form in the "nothing" outside our own - but it couldn't because 'outside the universe' is like saying 'before time'. Both are utterly meaningless concepts.

You say it happened 'before' physical laws but it can't have, because there was no 'before'.

In your defence, things to happen in nature utterly randomly for no reason at all. They're called 'quantum events', and include thigns like when radioactive atoms decay.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 2nd, 2003, 8:17 AM

There is no more wring with my guess than there is with the god guess. There was NOTHING, no space, no time, no rules, no order, no chaos, no vacuum, nothing. Nothing which could possibly limit anything from happening, So from this nothing comes everything since there is no reason it should or shouldnt, why this nothing is doing what ever it can, which is anything since there are no rules, it developes some rules and some energy and traps a universe into existance because of the random rules that got thrown together for no reason at all.

Again your argument against my nothing universe is based on rules and laws and logic, there was none of this in the nothing. Maybe our universe will end someday and there will be nothing again, aI dont mind cause where there is nothing at all, there is no such thing as impossible. quantum events are part of the universe, not part of the nothing.

armageddononline

Aug 2nd, 2003, 8:29 AM

You're saying there was a time with no space, rules etc. But that can't be right because time was create with the universe.

You say there "WAS" nothing, which not only means that this nothing existed, but it existed at a certain time.

evilwill88

Aug 2nd, 2003, 9:48 AM

time is meaningless in regaurds with the universe because it is a concept. Time wasn't created when the universe came into existence.

And why did you ban me?:|

armageddononline

Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:12 AM

I think it says why you were banned in the Guestbook.

Time is not a concept, it's a dimension. It did come into being with the universe, as space and time are linked.

evilwill88

Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:27 AM

time is a concept...... beyond that it is nothing........

DontBeAfraid

Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:03 PM

I use the word was because there is something, We humans dont have the comprehension to to understand nothing. Just like we cant understand god.

Nothing transcends logic and time, the nothing that is. Its impossible to argue against- just like god.

Edgecrusher666

Aug 3rd, 2003, 1:46 AM

Nothingness is comprehendable, its just impossible to prove what it is because it doesn't exist because it is not something.

I.E.

Nothing = no space, time, matter, ideas, organisms, diemensions. In other words complete and utter non-existience or True Perfection, i have explained this further in the DOES IT HURT TO BELIEVE IN GOD? thread

cheese jatz

Aug 6th, 2003, 7:30 AM

I must say that science cannot not possibly prove everything because there is so much it still needs to discover. Science only knows what it can discover and what it has discovered isnt even close to unlocking the secrets of the universe. Infact it is still learning about the earth and by the time they realize that we are on the wrong path with how we treat the planet and how this is destabilizing ecological systems, it will be too late.
To those who don't believe in a god, what is responsible for the formation and creation of everything and what reason would we be in existance. How do you get nothing from nothing? who is to say that god is not something we have never thought of before? Forget religion. God could be a clever type of energy with the ability to imagine and to those who want to dismiss this, go ahead, because like me, you cannot not scientifically prove your theories either. Science can't prove or dissaprove something unless it can admit an existance and discover it and just because science cannot prove something exist's or doesnt exist doesnt mean it is not there in the first place. By comparison to the size of the universe and the other galaxies that are being discovered via the hubble telescope, science knows very little. We are discovering things everyday and the hubble is brilliant, but we are still at the beginnings of discovery really and there are things that science will never be able to prove one way or the other. They may come up with theories but what are these theories based on? Fact or someones theory?

evilwill88

Aug 7th, 2003, 3:42 AM

Religion doesn't prove anything either. It claims to know all the answers and expects you to believe everything it says without any proof.

At least science admits when it doesn't know and backs up it's claims with actual evidence and not some book with no validation.

straight street

Aug 11th, 2003, 10:24 AM

do you believe in God? YES...do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God? YES...
JESUS LOVES YOU

DontBeAfraid

Aug 12th, 2003, 12:30 PM

Why not read the thread before posting?

JESUS RAPES YOU

lazserus

Aug 12th, 2003, 2:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>isn't this only a yes or no question?[/quote]

hahah. Yea, but would that be any fun?

I'm a nonbeliever. I'm not going to get into a theological debate with anyone really, because it's futile. I am a man of logic and reason and truly the concept of a deity is devoit of all of that. I don't see anything wrong with someone believing, I just see wrong in people who force their beliefs upon others. We civilized people like to call that oppression.

I love it when believers use science to help support their faith. I absolutely hate it when atheists try to use science to support their own. At least have some pride and do the damned research before you start spitting up scientific cud in support of your theories. Atheists who act like they know something give the atheists who do know a bad name. It's pretty sad when an atheist tries to use science to back up his argument against the existence of a god and the opponent, a believer, knows more about the subject than the atheist.

The only real thing I want to leave for all to ponder is this:

A common argument believers use in support of God is "who made the universe?". Atheists will say "no one" and mention an infinite universe and the faithful will spit up, "it had to have gotten here somehow." This is a fallacy, considering we atheists can regurgitate the same irritatingly frigid logic with God. Why is it that believers have a problem with the universe always being existent eternally, but don't have a problem with God doing the same? I would classify that as hypocrasy. Reap what you sew. Infinite is infinite, no matter what brand of cereal you eat in the morning.

mickydoolittle

Jan 2nd, 2004, 12:54 AM

Why bother? One would get the same result if one were to believe that a tortilla could end all suffering and hunger were it large enough. Food and shelter....no difference.

Yes, I know I'm quite the :dork:

mickydoolittle

Aug 7th, 2004, 5:57 AM

genius AND arrogance....I am a demigod. . . and HOW!

stewey

Aug 7th, 2004, 8:17 AM

I certainly believe in God.

40oz

Aug 7th, 2004, 3:21 PM

I think that the age old question is "is there a god?" Or "Do you believe in God?"
is a little unfair. It is clear that no one here, by proof (which is does not exist) or by mere words can convince anyone that does not believe in god that God is real, and vice versa. I think that an individual has the right (without ridicule) not to believe in a higher being and the other way around. To each person whether God is real is, well, is ultimately up to that person. There are people here on these boards the simply do not believe in God and to them (has redundant as it sounds) God really doesn't exist. I think its a waisted argument. To each his own is my view. However the fact that an individual chooses to believe or not doesn't make it right or wrong. The goal of the majority of "Organized religion" is to make converts, is it not? To make another believe in his ideals, his way, his god. If you don't believe in my god then your wrong is the mindset. No one can really now for a fact so again to each his own. We will eventually know the truth. I personally believe in God and the son of God, I will not however impose it and say anyone is wrong for not agreeing with me. Nor will I try and Prove it. It is a "belief" a "Faith"

Strife

Aug 7th, 2004, 6:27 PM

This should be the proclaimed conclusion to all questions regarding the belief in god. Well said 4Ooz. :toast:

40oz

Aug 7th, 2004, 9:18 PM

I thank you for your kind words Strife, that is the first positive response I've received on the boards and it will never be matched imo....

sudden-impact

Aug 8th, 2004, 9:20 AM

hi..

as for me believing in god, well the answer is NO. as i like astronomy, i just cant see how there can be such thing as a god..

they say god is the creater of everything, thats bull'' god is something for people to believe in, if there were nothing to believe in the world would go mental. its a way of keeping order.

people see ufos, no one believes them, think their mad. i haven't seen god, so why should i believe in something i cant see. i dont care what the bible says, it mentions god spoke, that makes him in my view a person, when you look at astronomy, HYPERNOVAS..SUPERNOVAS..BLACKHOLES..for what purpose would a god create that for? we cant see them without special equipment, many light years away. sorry if this sounds harsh to someone. in my view there is no god. if there were a god i would call it HYPERNOVA. end of discussion. :D

playmaker88

Aug 9th, 2004, 6:30 AM

We will eventually know the truth. I personally believe in God and the son of God, I will not however impose it and say anyone is wrong for not agreeing with me. Nor will I try and Prove it. It is a "belief" a "Faith"

As Strife said, your post was a good one. However, if someone comes on here saying 'There is a God' and quotes verses from the bible, then someone else is going to come on here and give reasons why they think there isn't and "vice-versa". It's an interesting discussion and people shouldn't get as upset as they do but like all debates they can digress into personal attacks, some unintentional, some intentional. It is going to happen from time to time. The only option would be to close the 'Religion' sub-forum down and it is one of the most-popular here and in my opinion quite healthy because it is not one-way traffic.

Your final paragraph stating "We will eventually know the truth" is not necessarily a fact. You see, as I don't believe in God and think that when I die, I just die, I will never know whether I am right, if I am right. I can live with that.

Doomer

Aug 9th, 2004, 7:50 AM

Define "God".

40oz

Aug 9th, 2004, 9:50 PM

Your final paragraph stating "We will eventually know the truth" is not necessarily a fact. You see, as I don't believe in God and think that when I die, I just die, I will never know whether I am right, if I am right. I can live with that.

Understood, I have a question so that I may understand atheism. If one is to believe there is no god/higher power, does that mean you likewise believe there is no afterlife? A friend and I were talking about this subject one day at work and he mentioned the fact that energy never ever "burns out" or goes away, or something to that effect. Now we know that the human body, most importantly the brain uses energy to function.

http://www.medical-
library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_brain_and_spinal_cord.html

Energy does not dissipate, it only "changes form". So if Memories are stored as energy in our minds, where or what happens to memories and thoughts. If I did not follow a High presence I would surely give this theory a hard look. Perhaps they are intertwined. Hence my line where in the end we will know the truth. Whether we stand before god, or are reborn as a frog. Anyways I am not making light of atheism or any other belief system, only being inquisitive.

40oz

Aug 9th, 2004, 9:53 PM

Sry about the busted linkage, I cant paste it in there for some reason.

playmaker88

Aug 11th, 2004, 4:34 AM

Energy does not dissipate, it only "changes form".

That's an interesting statement. Kelvin's second law of thermodynamics states that a little energy is always wasted. You can't have a perpetual motion device because no matter how efficient, it will always LOSE ENERGY and eventually run down.

Although weighing only 2% the brain uses 20% of the body's energy AT REST.

Most organs in the body are able to utilise many substrates present in the blood. They are able to absorb and metabolise a wide range of amino, keto and fatty acids for example, in addition to glucose, and the supplies of all these substances are fully adequate to maintain normal function. Such is not the case for the brain which relies solely on the oxidative metabolism of glucose for its energy requirements (Siesjo 1978). (Oxygen turnover is the highest amongst the essential nutrients).
At rest the brain consumes 17 calories per 100 grams of brain tissue per minute (Siebert et al. 1986).

Once glucose has entered cells it undergoes the process of glycolysis in the cytosol, thereafter pyruvate, the main product of glycolysis, enters the tricarboxylic cycle in mitochondria. It is through these complex series of reactions that ATP the ‘universal energy currency of nature’ is produced.

If no oxygen reaches the brain then cells start to die at a rapid rate. Even if there was energy in the brain, it would start to lose the connecting cells to access this information even if the energy didn't dissipate. Eventually all cells would die, including the ones that help produce energy in the first place. The brain becomes totally redundant, therefore total death.

No, I don’t believe in life after death. Good question though.

dcookcan

Aug 11th, 2004, 10:07 AM

Kelvin's second law of thermodynamics states that a little energy is always wasted. You can't have a perpetual motion device because no matter how efficient, it will always LOSE ENERGY and eventually run down.

That's not quite true. The energy lost in most thermodynamic systems is usually heat loss. The energy is not lost, it has changed form into heat and is not recoverable.

This is the law of increasing entropy. Entropy in layman's terms is a measure of dissorder or chaos. All thermodynamic systems move from a state of order to a state of chaos. Water flows down hill.

This is the Law that creation scientists use when arguing against evolution. The theory of evolution breaks this Law in that something is formed from nothing; life evolved into a higher state from a lower state (non life). Simple celled life evolved into multi cell life, organisms from organs, higher state of conciousness from lower state, etc.

It is a myth, yet many brilliant minds are embracing it.

mickydoolittle

Aug 11th, 2004, 6:05 PM

It is a myth, yet many brilliant minds are embracing it.

Many brilliant minds embrace the christian faith. What's your point?

dcookcan

Aug 11th, 2004, 6:57 PM

playmaker88

Aug 11th, 2004, 7:53 PM

40oz

Aug 12th, 2004, 12:09 AM

Many brilliant minds embrace the christian faith. What's your point?

I'm curious if you feel the same towards Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism? Judaism?
and all the other ism's.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 12th, 2004, 4:34 AM

I do 40oz.... And Im getting sick and fucking tired of idiots who dont know what it takes for a hypothesis to become a scientific theory!!!

Its not like its some theory that YOU came up with.... JEBUS!!!!

dcookcan

Aug 12th, 2004, 10:25 AM

I do 40oz.... And Im getting sick and fucking tired of idiots who dont know what it takes for a hypothesis to become a scientific theory!!!

Sounds like someone doesn't know the difference between theory and law.

mickydoolittle

Aug 12th, 2004, 4:03 PM

My point is that everyone has faith in something.

Some have faith in God.

Some have faith in scientific theories.

Some have faith that their scientific theories are fact.

Some have faith that someone out there is going to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God doesn't exist.

BTW, I was wondering when the 'opinionated bastard' was going to reply to one of my posts. :birthdayg

People don't have faith in science--science is founded upon solid principal and proven theories, which do not require faith.

One does not faith have in theories. Theories are not proven based on faith--they are based on a hypothesis that requires testing to determine the validity be the result true or false. Simply because one is trying to prove a theory, does not indicate one has faith in the theory or the anticipated result of said theory.

No one has faith that man can prove god does not exist, because if you start to think about that concept--you would realize that man is incapable of proving such either way.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that your logic is very weak. I suggest you improve your reasoning for further banter.

Good try tho. Oh, and not everyone has faith in something. That's a generic statement many people throw at random and hope something sticks to it. Don't be so foolish to think that statement will achieve any intended purpose in a debate or in defense of an argument.

dcookcan

Aug 12th, 2004, 4:32 PM

People don't have faith in science--science is founded upon solid principal and proven theories, which do not require faith.

One does not faith have in theories. Theories are not proven based on faith--they are based on a hypothesis that requires testing to determine the validity be the result true or false. Simply because one is trying to prove a theory, does not indicate one has faith in the theory or the anticipated result of said theory.

Well my friend. Theories are not Law and cannot become law unless they can withstand any test. Gravity is law.

A theory is a hypothesis that has been tested and confirmed, based on the testing. However, it remains a theory because it cannot be proven. You must have faith in that theory in order to hang your hat on it. The creation vs evolution debate is a good case to point out, because both are theories. Depending on your beliefs, you can interpret the same data from different perspectives. Both have validity, but neither can be proven beyond doubt. At the end of many of the creation vs evolution debates, faith comes into the debate. The evolutionist will clearly state that he cannot accept the creation theory because he refuses to believe that God exists and must find an alternative explanation. In the end, it comes down to choosing to have faith in one or the other. Both theories can be tested, but neither can be proven.

Oh, and not everyone has faith in something. That's a generic statement many people throw at random and hope something sticks to it. Don't be so foolish to think that statement will achieve any intended purpose in a debate or in defense of an argument.

I maintain that all people have faith in something; although many will not acknowledge it.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 12th, 2004, 5:08 PM

dcookcan

Aug 12th, 2004, 6:05 PM

Creation CAN NOT BE TESTED.... WE HAVE SEEN THINGS EVOLVE!!!! There is a difference between theory and law but you are the one who does not know what it is.
Hypothesis' cannot become theories unless they can withstand any test, theories have failed NO tests, when they do fail a test the theory is tossed out or changed accordingly.

You are not a scientist are you. Creation is tested all the time. Open your eyes man!

An article about creation scientists contributing to refereed journals.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/538.asp

A link to a creation research journal.
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq.html

BTW - I am not advocating these sites, since they are christian and FYI I am not a christian.

playmaker88

Aug 12th, 2004, 6:46 PM

There has occurred, at least on the Earth, an immense increase in order and complexity over a great deal of time. The Solar System has also seen an increase in order. Yet all this would go against the second law of thermal dynamics.

Would you agree that simple invertebrates existed in pools and oceans before vertebrates appeared in pools and oceans and on land? Was this a creator playing a waiting game (a very patient one if you consider the time it took for the Earth to settle down) or down to environmental restrictions? I can’t understand why a creator would wait so long to create a human. Were dinosaurs a failed experiment? Were they not worth even a line in Genesis? No. When Genesis was written no-one knew that dinosaurs existed, so no mention.

Creationists would have you believe that catastrophism is for their exclusive use because Genesis mentioned the idea long before Evolutionists started using the idea for new ideas such as ‘punctuated evolution’ which try to explain such discrepancies as the missing fossil record in Darwin’s theory. The truth is, the Evolutionists are evolving their ideas as they find out new information. They are not standing still, their theories are not finalised and rubberstamped in black and white.

I am not an Evolutionist, I haven’t done the ground work but a Creationist believes that everything that exists must have been ‘created’ which still leaves me with the question, what created the creator?

dcookcan

Aug 12th, 2004, 6:54 PM

There has occurred, at least on the Earth, an immense increase in order and complexity over a great deal of time. The Solar System has also seen an increase in order. Yet all this would go against the second law of thermal dynamics.

I don't understand your logic here. Are you assuming that things are evolving? Where is the evidence of this increase in order and complexity?

Doomer

Aug 12th, 2004, 6:58 PM

Creation is not a theory as there is absolutely no evidence for it's existence. Creation is based solely on religious BS. It's a fools "theory".

DontBeAfraid

Aug 12th, 2004, 7:20 PM

Tell me how creation is tested.... I mean I can sit and watch my bathtub and see if anything is "created" in there, but is that really a test? You are not a scientist, and neither is any creationist.

playmaker88

Aug 12th, 2004, 7:31 PM

I don't understand your logic here. Are you assuming that things are evolving? Where is the evidence of this increase in order and complexity?

The Solar System, at its origin was a wild unorganised mass of matter. Matter collided with matter a lot more frequently than it does today. Do you think that God moulded the planets or do you believe that solid matter, upon solid matter pounded the planets pretty relentlessly in the Solar Systems infancy?

If you believe that this (for want of a better word) chaos happened then would you go as far as to say that it has settled down somewhat? The planets are still getting hit (ShoemakerLevy9 would be a prime example) but not with the regularity of the early Solar System. The planets have settled into much more stable orbits with their respective satellites than during the early formation of the system when in some cases they probably bounced off each other. Slightly more ordered wouldn't you say?

Do you not accept that the earlier forms of life were simple organisms? Since their arrival has life on Earth not got more complicated as time has gone by? Trilobites before sharks? Amphibians before mammals? What would be more complex, the brain of a human or the brain of a trilobite?

The solar system is DEFINATELY more ordered and the species on this planet are DEFINATELY more complex. How difficult is that to understand? Certainly not regressive.

40oz

Aug 12th, 2004, 9:18 PM

Anyone following string theory? There were several "different" theories involved, yet all, Unbeknownst to there theorist were intertwined via a hidden 11th dimension. After finding out about this "hidden" element they were able to see that all the different theories involved were in fact the same theory...

Evolution/creation :toast: Perhaps there is degree of evolution AFTER a creation. Perhaps the beasts of the earth were/are still being "molded" into the ideal creature.

40oz

Aug 13th, 2004, 2:04 AM

The Solar System, at its origin was a wild unorganised mass of matter. Matter collided with matter a lot more frequently than it does today. Do you think that God moulded the planets or do you believe that solid matter, upon solid matter pounded the planets pretty relentlessly in the Solar Systems infancy?

Good points, but for every outcome concerning "the beginning of time" there is a sequence of events that must take place. The way I look at it is not to argue your points but say that your right, there may have been chaos and an unorganized factor in the initial stages of the universe. If a higher being created the universe whats to say he didn't "set" this controlled chaos into motion to achieve his ultimate goal.

DontBeAfraid

Aug 13th, 2004, 4:16 AM

Why do you call this higher being he instead of it?

playmaker88

Aug 13th, 2004, 5:09 AM

If a higher being created the universe whats to say he didn't "set" this controlled chaos into motion to achieve his ultimate goal.

What's the point? If the supreme being can create "controlled chaos" then it can create perfection in one easy move, why make things stutter and suffer along the way? Why wait billions and billions of years for very little to happen? It doesn't make sense.

40oz

Aug 13th, 2004, 9:11 AM

I say he out of habit. Calling ones god an it just doesn't sound right to me. :evbat:

If there is an ultimate "creator" I would think he/she/it/they/them would not be confined by our understanding of time structure.

If god were to create the universe in perfection, he would have likewise created humans in perfection, thus eliminating the need for a god.

40oz

Aug 13th, 2004, 9:39 AM

One thing I notice about evolution vs creation is that the debate is so heated no one has asked, ok life began with a asteroid/comet carrying the fundamental elements of life, Perhaps god sent that rock of life to our planet. Oh, I really hate to quote the bible but it does fit here

Q. 6. Of what was the body of man formed?

A. "Of the dust of the ground," Gen. 2:7; hence God is resembled to a potter, and man to the clay, and a potsherd, Isa. 64:8, and 45:9.

This could be two sides of the same coin.

playmaker88

Aug 13th, 2004, 12:30 PM

Nice Interpretation. The thing with the bible is it is all down to interpretation. Anything written can be matched to pretty much anything you want it to be. God builds the world in six days, rests on the seventh, not literally six days but...Later in the bible God refers again to the six days and one of rest when questioned about the reasons for the day of rest...again not to be taken literally but interpreted differently. The opening two verses of Genesis suggest that the Universe and Earth were created simultaneously if taken literally but the new interpretation is that the two verses are split.

By new I mean that in my opinion the book was written a few thousand years ago when people actually believed that the world was only a few thousand years old, everytime something new is discovered, the bible is re-interpreted to suit. It's not difficult.

dcookcan

Aug 13th, 2004, 2:56 PM

Tell me how creation is tested.... I mean I can sit and watch my bathtub and see if anything is "created" in there, but is that really a test? You are not a scientist, and neither is any creationist.

It is tested the same way any scientific theory is tested. You can sit and watch your bathtub to see if anything evolves there as well - same logic. I have the degree to prove that I am a scientist, but like I have said in other posts: It is just a piece of paper.

The Solar System, at its origin was a wild unorganised mass of matter. Matter collided with matter a lot more frequently than it does today. Do you think that God moulded the planets or do you believe that solid matter, upon solid matter pounded the planets pretty relentlessly in the Solar Systems infancy?

If this is true, please lead me to the source that was there to observe and record this? It is pure speculation based on something that scientisits have hypothesized and devised testing to prove.

Do you not accept that the earlier forms of life were simple organisms? Since their arrival has life on Earth not got more complicated as time has gone by? Trilobites before sharks? Amphibians before mammals? What would be more complex, the brain of a human or the brain of a trilobite?

No, I do not blindly accept anything. You must assume that things have evolved from lower life forms to believe this (i.e. faith). Once again, no one was there to observe the so called early life forms.

The solar system is DEFINATELY more ordered and the species on this planet are DEFINATELY more complex. How difficult is that to understand? Certainly not regressive.

There is nothing definate about these statements. You must first believe in the theory before you can accept this. We do not have any record of what the 'early' solar system was like.

Evolution scientists take a measurment of some process and assume that it has been the same forever (like sedimantation on a lake bed). Then they postulate that the sediment at 6 feet depth is so many thousands of years old based on a current rate of sedimentation. This is not valid, because if there is one constant that can be proven, it is that everything changes and processes like this are transient rather than steady state.

Creation is not a theory as there is absolutely no evidence for it's existence. Creation is based solely on religious BS. It's a fools "theory".

Only a fool would blindly accept that everything they learned in school is true. There is evidence that creation is true, but you have to come out of your 'there can't possibly be a god hypothesis' and be open minded about the research that is being done.

dcookcan

Aug 13th, 2004, 3:17 PM

The thing with the bible is it is all down to interpretation. Anything written can be matched to pretty much anything you want it to be.

Same is true for scientific theories. Some more than others (creation & evolution).

God builds the world in six days, rests on the seventh, not literally six days but...

The biblical account is a literal 24 hour day. "There was evening and there was morning, one day".

By new I mean that in my opinion the book was written a few thousand years ago when people actually believed that the world was only a few thousand years old,

There still are people who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old.

everytime something new is discovered, the bible is re-interpreted to suit. It's not difficult.

Christians used to say that the earth was flat based on the bible. However, the bible does not mention anywhere that the earth was flat, this was based on some pope saying it and sheeple just fell in line. People had to revisit what the bible actually said to understand the truth.

Understanding the bible is more about properly translating it from its original language than 'interpreting' it.

purveyor

Aug 13th, 2004, 9:06 PM

If a person goes to the Discovery tv chanel web page you will find in the archives a 6 hour documentary on the mind. it is filled with scientific discovery on the nature of the brain. Within this documentary is an experiment about an american organization of women who across the U.S. go into hospitals and pray for those who are injured. in the 1960s doctors noticed the patients who were being prayed for were healing at a much faster rate than those who were not being prayed for, or what was considered the norm for most ailments.
Science decided to put these hospital circumstances in the Lab, to set up a provable repeatable experiment, in this manner, there were 30 separated booths, constructed with a wall separating the booths. There was a one way mirror between two chairs. Thirty people from all walks of life were given the exact same cut on their fingers, same depth, same location, same length. 15 of the thirty people had a woman from this organization had a woman pray to the God of Abraham, in the name of Christ. 15 had no person pray. In EVERY case of a person having their wound, or cut prayed for, It Was Healed 30% to 50% faster than a person who had no prayer. none of the people who had the cuts knew if they were being prayed for or not. This is clean science, repeatable, provable, anywhere in the world. This makes it a matter of FACT, a reality.
For a person to take the time out of their personal existance to go to a hospital to pray for them is an act of LOVE. To Pray to God for another persons wounds, is an act of compassion, of self sacrifice. The Hebrew definition of Faith is Steadfastness, Trustworthyness, These women had faith in God and Love, In the name of Immanuel, (God with us), they tapped into the kingdom of God and projected it into others, thereby manipulating the matter within another human, at a molecular level.....Conclusion...LOVE MANIPULATES MATTER.......This is a scientific reality...God is Love... So does God exist? right before your very eyes...Love Him, He Loves YOU. Share his Love in his name, change the nature of the universe we Live in, and live forever, the other option is to destroy matter, the creation of God, and Die forever. :yumyum:

Sagi_Zod

Aug 14th, 2004, 1:02 PM

Did Jezus existed?
Could very well be.
But I couldn't care less.
Same counts for God.

They are both a concept for me and that's what matters.
What they stand for and the meaning of God, depends on every individual.
You have to decide that for yourself.

I know so many people who claim to believe in God, Jezus, Maria,...
They know whole lines from the bible, go to church every week.
But they can't think for themself and rarely act like it is written.
But I can tell you their believe is sincere.

Now, I don't believe in a being, God. But I do believe what he stands for. That is goodness, love, care,...

duxklh

Aug 17th, 2004, 4:09 PM

undefined
Att all. This question was in a long running poll which has gone to the new poll category. 64.8% of regulars and visitors to the site said YES. It got some very good replies and anyone wishing to add to the replies can do so here. Anyone wishing to vote can do so in the polls section. Thankyou. :) I will copy the last few comments...
I'm new at this, so you must forgive me. I'll catch on. The question, I believe, is do I believe in god. I do not believe in a parochial god. I love best, and I will paraphrase, Spinoza. Everything is god. The tree you see is god playing tree on planet earth. It's a bit Vedantic, too, is it not? To go the extreme, and I sometimes do, you are god playing you on planet earth, just as I am got playing me on planet earth. Is this too far out for you? Now all If have to figure out, god, is how to send this. Sigh. Wish me luck.

playmaker88

Aug 19th, 2004, 5:32 AM

Same is true for scientific theories. Some more than others (creation & evolution).

Understanding the bible is more about properly translating it from its original language than 'interpreting' it.

Yes, I'm no scientist. At least it seems that science is adaptable.

Which bible (of the many thousands of translations) would you say is most accurate? Which is the bible that has 'proper translation' ? I think we'd all like to know so that we can run out and buy the 'definitive copy' so that we can start either finally understanding or start shooting holes for real. Do you have this copy? Is it available on ebay? It's got to be better than the translation sitting in my lap at present because this one seems to be stuffed so full of :bs: (my interpretation) that I can't see the wood for the trees.

pete

Aug 19th, 2004, 5:33 AM

playmaker88

Aug 19th, 2004, 5:43 AM

I believe life is a miracle. If you don't - then think again.

I can understand why people sometimes query my God (Jesus Christ), but I can't understand that people reject the fact that there is a God out there who created all of this.

Take your own advice and "think again".

Elizabethlea

Aug 19th, 2004, 5:48 AM

I believe in God, but not in some giant old guy with a beard that sits in the clouds somewhere.

pete

Aug 19th, 2004, 5:49 AM

Remember matter cannot be destroyed nor created. So how was the universe created. And if there was nothing before the universe then where did god come from? And how did he create matter? We can't be sure that our basic laws of physics aply throughout the entire universe.

Who said matter can't be destroyed nor created? It basically works the same as charging something. You split the protons & electrons to create charge. Matter is created in the same way ... Lots of engery is used to create equal ammounts of matter and antimatter.

our universe is made up of matter and matter is all we can see. By the rules of symmetry, there should be just as much antimatter out there as there is matter in our universe- in fact, there should be a whole universe full of it. (http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.web.stuff/waschke/page5.html)

We can't be sure that our basic laws of physics aply throughout the entire universe.

Also I'm pretty sure our basic laws of physics doesn't apply throughout the entire universe ... Can't proove it, but we don't even know exactly what's out there.

mickydoolittle

Aug 19th, 2004, 6:21 AM

Everyone should know that there is more to this world than only the physical that we can see. We are definitely surrounded by a spiritual world as well. If your physical body dies, your spiritual part gets separated from your physical body, you leave your body and you enter the spiritual world.

Everyone? Hhhmmmm……What's your proof for posting that there is more to this world than the physical realm? Your spiritual part? WTF is that? Why are you so insistent upon proclaiming a spiritual realm exists? Are you afraid of finality or an inescapable end?

If you don't believe this, then do some read up on OBE's (out of body experiences (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=obe&meta=) astral aura's (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22astral+aura%22+%22astral+projection%22&meta=) etc.

Yeah, there is an OBE thread on the board that also discusses the NDE's--perhaps Hans can help me out on this one . . .as for astral projections--you probably believe crystals can help heal ppl if they hold 'em long enough.

There must be a God out there.

First: :sardonic:
Second: Why must there be a god?

Who created life so perfect ?

What is your definition of perfect? We all die don’t we? How perfect is that? There are rapists & molesters, dictators & genocidal maniacs….blah blah blippety blah…perfect. . .bah.

Think about it .. if we were intelligent and advanced enough to create a human being from scratch, how much easier wouldn't it be to just bring a dead body back to life ... can we do it ?
Yes, we create human beings from scratch all day long and most often in the night. (oooo la la) And yes, yes we can bring clinically dead humans back to life. And we do it only every day all over the globe repeatedly with CPR and loads of drugs.

Apparently you haven't been paying attn to the advances of medical science from only the last 50 fuq’n years!

NO .. What's the physical difference between a living and dead body - about nothing, except that the heart doesn't beat and blood doesn't flow. .
Well, you CLEARLY don't understand energy nor physics. THINK again and THINK harder next time.

I believe life is a miracle. If you don't - then think again.
Why is life such a miracle? You offer grand statements with no support or foundation for why you believe such. Come on--around here: I WANT SOLID FOUNDATIONS FOR YOUR POSTED STATEMENTS. I want to see why you post as you do and I want to see the evidence you intend to use as support for posting as you do

I can understand why people sometimes query my God (Jesus Christ), but I can't understand that people reject the fact that there is a God out there who created all of this.
If you really understood why ppl question, then you wouldn't have written the rest of that sentence. Moreover, why are you so utterly convinced we are the pawns of an alleged supreme being that allegedly created all of us and all that is around us? A little insecure, ehh?

Tsk tsk tsk

pete

Aug 19th, 2004, 7:40 AM

Micky,

I'll try to explain my comments.

Why are you so insistent upon proclaiming a spiritual realm exists?

I believe God lives in the spiritual realms. If you want to bring him into this topic then you have to admit that there is a spiritual realm. That's why i was insistent upon proclaiming a spiritual realm exists. Otherwise it's useless to have this discussion.

What's your proof for posting that there is more to this world than the physical realm?

I have experienced the Holy Spirit ... as most other Christians.

Yeah, there is an OBE thread on the board that also discusses the NDE's--perhaps Hans can help me out on this one . . .as for astral projections--you probably believe crystals can help heal ppl if they hold 'em long enough.

I don't have these believes. I like reading up on stuff and these OBE seems like it happen around us. Even the Bible refers to this. (but ok, you don't believe in the bible)

Why must there be a god?

Sorry, I didn't mean "a god" .. but I do believe there is either "a source" or "other sources" (gods if you wish) out there whose power isn't even comprehensible by us. Sorry again ... I know this is an opinion. Ignore it if you wish. Basically all religions are "opinions" from an outsider's viewpoint.

What is your definition of perfect? We all die don’t we? How perfect is that? There are rapists & molesters, dictators & genocidal maniacs….blah blah blippety blah…perfect. . .bah.

My idea of perfect is the whole way the human works. The brain .. that we can't even figure out exactly how it works ... etc. Think of a human being ... a baby ... yes - all the horrible things people do with their bodies might ruin the perfection, but I believe the being itself is still perfect. (again only my opinion)

Yes, we create human beings from scratch all day long and most often in the night. (oooo la la) And yes, yes we can bring clinically dead humans back to life. And we do it only every day all over the globe repeatedly with CPR and loads of drugs.

I'm sure you know what I mean by "creating humans from scratch". We can't create humans (other than by sex ... birth etc) by hand and computers etc. Even cloning is not really creating a human. We can't even create a worm or fly or even the smallest living organism.

Also not just bringing people back from dead who died 10 secs ago, I mean ... a dead body , being dead for a week. There's no way we can fix / resurrect such a person.

Well, you CLEARLY don't understand energy nor physics. THINK again and THINK harder next time.

I do. I studied it for 7 years at university ... all the way up to theoretical nuclear physics.

Why is life such a miracle? You offer grand statements with no support or foundation for why you believe such. Come on--around here: I WANT SOLID FOUNDATIONS FOR YOUR POSTED STATEMENTS. I want to see why you post as you do and I want to see the evidence you intend to use as support for posting as you do

Agreed, It's my opinion. I do not have the facts and I do not expect you to believe it. Ignore it if you wish.

If you really understood why ppl question, then you wouldn't have written the rest of that sentence. Moreover, why are you so utterly convinced we are the pawns of an alleged supreme being that allegedly created all of us and all that is around us? A little insecure, ehh?

Funny remark of yours ... I'm not insecure, but thanks for asking.

mickydoolittle

Aug 19th, 2004, 7:46 AM

You haven't answered anything really--only posted glib remarks. :bubble:

If you really were a student of physics as you post, then you would have realized that the order of life on a molecular level as well as the alleged perfections you post of would defeat the rationalization of the existence of god (a god, or a group of gods, I care not).

I am not surprised; perhaps you can develop some foundations for your opinions. Hhhhmmmm?

pete

Aug 19th, 2004, 8:09 AM

All I can say is I believe in a God greater than all our equations and formulas.
Therefore I can't give you proof of his existance by molecular level theories nor can I develop some foundations for anything.

If our laws of physics would applied to God, then He surely wouldn't have been a God.

Thanks for the discussion, I'll leave it there as we have different believes and it normally ends up in pointless arguments that goes around in boring circles. (Sorry again for all my opinions rather than facts & no hard feelings)

bye

dcookcan

Aug 19th, 2004, 11:29 AM

Which bible (of the many thousands of translations) would you say is most accurate? Which is the bible that has 'proper translation' ? I think we'd all like to know so that we can run out and buy the 'definitive copy' so that we can start either finally understanding or start shooting holes for real. Do you have this copy? Is it available on ebay?

Good question Playmaker. It does not exist. Almost all translations on the market today are translated from a dispensational, pre-trib rapture point of view. The translators think they know what a passage means so that is what is written, rather than the basic translation.

I use New American Standard and King James translations in conjunction with a Concordance and Lexicon. I actually study the original language words and their meanings (Concordance and Lexicon) rather than listening to what some man has to say about it.

I hope that helps answer your question, even though it was meant to be retorical.

pete

Aug 19th, 2004, 2:50 PM

Which bible (of the many thousands of translations) would you say is most accurate? Which is the bible that has 'proper translation' ?

I believe it is the Amplified Bible. With direct Hebrew translations.

Read the following review:
http://www.christianbits.co.uk/product.php?id=0310951682

This specific one below is described as follows:
When Your Knowledge of the Original Languages of the Bible Is Limited and You Don't Want to Lose Anything in the Translation

I think Amazon sells it for cheaper, just watch out because there are a few different variations of it and they all have different purposes.

autryn2

Aug 24th, 2004, 6:12 PM

I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring:

YES... I believe in God and in His Son Christ.

The proof is in the difference this belief makes in millions of people throughout history and all over the world. Believers in God and His Son live better, longer, more complete lives than those that don't. It is a verifiable(sp?) fact. Don't think so??? It has been documented that Christians live longer (on average) than non believers from the same area and demographic. That Christians are more likely to stay married for life (on average) or at least longer than non believers. That Christians are less likely to end up in jail (on average) than non believers. That Christians are less likely to commit suicide than non believers. That Christians are less likely to become addicted than non believers, and if they do, are more likely to fully recover from serious addictions than non believers. That Christians are more likely to recover from life challenging changes such as dangerous military service (vietnam, etc..), or losing a loved one than non believers. And most importantly, Christians are much less likely to burn in Hell than non believers :~)

My question to the aethists out there is why do Christians enjoy such better lives????

Why???

Its gotta be something, and it can't be nothing if it affects such a great change to so many people....

Why???

DontBeAfraid

Aug 24th, 2004, 6:56 PM

THat is simply NOT TRUE autryn.... All that stuff you just said is MADE UP, not by you but by someone you seem to trust. Too bad you beleive the lies.

humanhybrid

Sep 12th, 2004, 5:27 PM

My question to the aethists out there is why do Christians enjoy such better lives????

Why???

Its gotta be something, and it can't be nothing if it affects such a great change to so many people....

Why??? So what this says is that your hand must be held in life.

Dr. X

Sep 16th, 2004, 10:49 AM

Do I believe in God? Yes.

humanhybrid

Sep 16th, 2004, 12:37 PM

Dr. X

Sep 17th, 2004, 2:38 AM

There are many beleifs that one can posses, my question is should beliefs evolve. Say for example that a jew converts to a christian, would that be an example to a christian that faith or beleif evolves? Is that a stupid question?
No way that is a stupid question! But, if I may, try to redirect where it goes.....

Faith evolves by exprience, like, saaaaay, anything that you do. If you start learning about how to carve wood, then move on to make cabinets, then move on to build houses, that is evolving. Switching religions is not evolving, because you are at a new starting point. Gotta start from the ground up, like any trade.
As a Christian, my opinion is that, if one switches from one religion to Christianity, one doesn't evolve, but one is headed in the right direction.
But reality is, that if one believes in something, they build a foundation, and build from that. That is evolving.

humanhybrid

Sep 17th, 2004, 12:19 PM

No way that is a stupid question! But, if I may, try to redirect where it goes.....

Faith evolves by exprience, like, saaaaay, anything that you do. If you start learning about how to carve wood, then move on to make cabinets, then move on to build houses, that is evolving. Switching religions is not evolving, because you are at a new starting point. Gotta start from the ground up, like any trade.
As a Christian, my opinion is that, if one switches from one religion to Christianity, one doesn't evolve, but one is headed in the right direction.
But reality is, that if one believes in something, they build a foundation, and build from that. That is evolving. Seems rational but all religions are based on faith "mostly" the foundation of all religions is faith NO! My humble opionion is that religions are evolveing to suit the needs of man, community, state, country and his superstitious nature. In the old testament and early new testament you will find certain practices that would be unheard of in this day and age. good day

Dr. X

Sep 28th, 2004, 4:35 AM

Seems rational but all religions are based on faith "mostly" the foundation of all religions is faith NO! My humble opionion is that religions are evolveing to suit the needs of man, community, state, country and his superstitious nature. In the old testament and early new testament you will find certain practices that would be unheard of in this day and age. good day
That is very true, but that is a human thing. The basic laws still apply. Christians base alot of things in faith, that God knows what He is doing and that all situations are here for us to learn from. Nothing is new under the sun, even if we have "evolved" to a degree. Basically, if we could just be NICE to one another, that is a good part of what God wants us to do. Changing the law that was prescribed ( like, say, at first you needed to sacrifice animals, but now you don't need to), is evolving, but when you research and read the original. the pith, of the message from the beginning to end, you will find out the message is the same.

humanhybrid

Sep 30th, 2004, 8:13 PM

when you research and read the original. the pith, of the message from the beginning to end, you will find out the message is the same I would disagree and agree that the fundamental foundation is faith in a god whatever name it suits its geographical area. The names are diffrent and the culture, rituals, etc. vary. But what doesnt change is your selfless soul to be given. Humans come into this world not knowing any country or god and I will leave in the same way. Dr X. with all due respect. good day!

yourallmad

Dec 21st, 2004, 11:36 AM

Hi,

Just want to say after reading the threads that you all seem to believe about science as the one true faith in your discussions. Who proved to you that what you're told about the universe is what's really happening out there. What?.. you read it in a book (science book/bible?), or the television? Are we all being fed propaganda about the universe? Isn't this the same blind faith the religious guys/girls are talking about? The same people you believe in like World leaders, Priests etc spoon feed us our beliefs, morals and values. Believe in yourself first!

Religion causes war, famine, hate, envy, love, wellbeing etc, etc, etc. After all it's a man made idea. Live by your own values not someone elses. How do you know that you are not God and everything around you is of your own will? When you were born the universe was there. When you die it dissappears. Does it therefore really exist? Prove me wrong !

Keeblergiant

Dec 21st, 2004, 12:54 PM

You're first claim is easily refuted because science is replicateable...I know that if I had to time and money I could replicate the experiment and get the same results.

The second claim is more than a hundred years ago by (once again...I've posted this statement in a different thread multiple times) Kant. Silly theists.

Red Shift

Dec 21st, 2004, 1:36 PM

Read it and weep dude

KG, ya took the words outa my mouth

eyekwah

Dec 22nd, 2004, 7:09 PM

for one how do we know ther was a god we humans only made the bible because life suked so we made it so that we had somthin to look forward too in life or should i say after life.

Mo righ's mo dhuchaich(for king and for country)

yourallmad

Dec 23rd, 2004, 7:42 AM

Point well made. But still Kant talks about the experiences of the mind and nothing existing until the mind has experienced it to make decisions on future experiences . This means there is a reality outside his reality (I think. You'll have to help me here as I'm new to this). What I was saying is that if I were say God (Which I actually don't think I am), then I am the creator of my reality and nothing prior of my will would exist and then only in my perceptual minds eye.

Whether science is truth in this reality might not be truth in another reality.

"Should I feed what I think is a cat some what I think is fish. I believe that in my reality the cat likes fish and this gives me pleasure or what I believe to be pleasure gives me a feeling of well being therefore it must be right to do it or so I believe. I think I will talk to what I like to call the table instead"

My point is just cus it seems right don't make it so.

Now I'm off to feed the cat ! :headbang:

WasteLandWa|2rior

Dec 23rd, 2004, 10:27 AM

why would anyone be so devoid of common sense and logic as to be moronic enough to believe in god?
LOL HELARIOUS!

WasteLandWa|2rior

Dec 23rd, 2004, 10:41 AM

I cant believe that some people so blindly believe in god...
i mean with some peps they get mad if u even try to tell them other possibilitys..
these people are obviously liveing in a fanticy world...
If your going to believe in god on an individual baseis... fine
but when people start judgeing peps according to there religion or when u start forceing your beliefs on people this is not the way someone who believes in god should be acting..... freaking presits sanctifying war ... blessing fighter jets b4 they go and drop there deadly cargo.... if you believe in god then you will have NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WAR or promoteing it atleast

Keeblergiant

Dec 23rd, 2004, 2:50 PM

Point well made. But still Kant talks about the experiences of the mind and nothing existing until the mind has experienced it to make decisions on future experiences . This means there is a reality outside his reality (I think. You'll have to help me here as I'm new to this). What I was saying is that if I were say God (Which I actually don't think I am), then I am the creator of my reality and nothing prior of my will would exist and then only in my perceptual minds eye.

I was referring to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, in which he said that although we cannot know anything for absolute truth, we can know things to a certain extent of approximation. In other words: If I see something, it looks real, it feels real, and it acts real it's pretty safe to assume that it's real. We can only rely on what we observe, and I don't observe a hidden reality, nor does anyone else...so it's safe to assume that it doesn't exist. Your argument also falls victim to Occam's razor; what is simpler, our reality is masked by a different reality or our reality is our reality?

yourallmad

Dec 24th, 2004, 3:19 AM

You really know the stuff. Although, doesn't that fall victim to what I originally said about we believe in what has been told us in books and media?

Keeblergiant

Dec 24th, 2004, 8:23 AM

You really know the stuff. Although, doesn't that fall victim to what I originally said about we believe in what has been told us in books and media?

Not if you had similar views before you discovered it...

Paul Mah

Dec 28th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Wednesday

Dec 28th, 2004, 1:07 AM

it happened somewhere between Gen 1:1 and 1:2

Genesis
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. *bang*
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

seems logical to me

eyekwah

Dec 28th, 2004, 2:12 PM

as i have said in other threads ther is no god wee humans made god becuase our lives suked and another thing IF THER WAS NO RELIGION THERE WOULD BE PEACE THROW OUT THE WORLD so you just a look at your selves and the world and THINK HARD LOOK HARD AND U WILL FIND AN ASEWR if u want to beleve in a god do so but do not drag non beleivers with u do not brag that u ar a belaver and do not brag that u ar a non belever we sould be allowed to belive wat we want and not bealive wat we do not want to

ps. sorry bout the spelling

Aonaibh ri cheile

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 28th, 2004, 4:30 PM

Hello Eyekwah and thank-you for those comments,

as i have said in other threads ther is no god wee humans made god becuase our lives suked and another thing IF THER WAS NO RELIGION THERE WOULD BE PEACE THROW OUT THE WORLD so you just a look at your selves and the world and THINK HARD LOOK HARD AND U WILL FIND AN ASEWR if u want to beleve in a god do so but do not drag non beleivers with u do not brag that u ar a belaver and do not brag that u ar a non belever we sould be allowed to belive wat we want and not bealive wat we do not want to

You do have the right to believe what you want to believe and do what you want to do, that is a God given right. You also have the responsiblity to pay the consequences for the actions that you do, that is part of Newton's Law.

If you see someone doing something that is contrary to their best interests or that of the people around you do you not have a responsibility to stop that action?

His Faithful Servant

David.

Keeblergiant

Dec 28th, 2004, 7:18 PM

You also have the responsiblity to pay the consequences for the actions that you do, that is part of Newton's Law.

Newton's laws mention nothing about ethics.

Wednesday

Dec 28th, 2004, 9:42 PM

If you see someone doing something that is contrary to their best interests or that of the people around you do you not have a responsibility to stop that action?

only if you are the parent or legal guardian of such person

if they are doing something contrary to the people around them, then its time for the police to step in

Godsgifttomankind

Dec 29th, 2004, 10:12 AM

Newton's laws mention nothing about ethics.

The point was to do with for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

This may be a physical law but it applies to many areas of the physical world.

only if you are the parent or legal guardian of such person

if they are doing something contrary to the people around them, then its time for the police to step in

If a good friend is doing something that will harm himself, you are saying that you would do nothing?

Does this mean if the police were not present, that you would stand and watch someone being beaten to death and do nothing?

Keeblergiant

Dec 30th, 2004, 11:21 AM

The point was to do with for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

This may be a physical law but it applies to many areas of the physical world.

No, it only applies to forces.

emperorx1984

Jan 2nd, 2005, 11:13 PM

My Response to "Do I believe in God?"

YES

repentantsinner

Jan 14th, 2005, 10:29 AM

There have been so many "coincidences" min my life it is impossible not to believe in God. I'm just coming off a period of punishment and can not deny God is immidiately restoreing my mind so as not to conform to this world. Yes God doed step in and punish if he has to. I wonder why some people are so vehemently opposed to God. If you dont believe why not just blow the question off? Is it so important to you NOT to believe?

repentantsinner

Jan 14th, 2005, 10:37 AM

People who spend so much time and effort debunking the idea of God seem to me to be validating his existance. Why aren't you just indifferent??? Why go to such lengths to prove you don't believe. I'm not claiming to see thru you but bad things have happened to me and i actually thought i could hurt God by not believing. I've been there. Maybe someday something will happen tp change your mind. If he lays claim on you there is almost nothing you can do to resist him. God will go on being the only true living God whether you believe, accept or not.

Keeblergiant

Jan 14th, 2005, 2:53 PM

Why aren't you just indifferent???

Because I now feel that God wasted 14 years of my life...

SIXshotsONEheart

Jan 15th, 2005, 9:49 AM

Because I now feel that God wasted 14 years of my life...

i feel that god has wasted 16 years of your life...

eyekwah

Jan 17th, 2005, 10:20 AM

i feel god is not real and has never been come on where is he when we need him

MarybethMayfair

Feb 23rd, 2005, 11:40 AM

I don't think God exists, the, you know, Christian God Who Watches With All Seeing Eyes and crap like that. There isa God somewhere, but either he doesn't care anymore, or he wants to end the world and is too scared to. There might even be more than one God, and maybe they're playing games with each other. "Let's see how many more people I can make happy today than you...no, let's make them paranoid, or depresed! Yeah, we haven't done depression in a long time!" We're just a game to them, and if they *we* blow ourselves up, then they'll make more worlds like us and play games with them too, until the same thing happens.

adroit

Mar 1st, 2005, 3:25 AM

Well...

There is only two possible options you believe in "God" or "Science" neither of them can prove themselves to be right they both take faith Religion clear states that there is a God and that he was the Alpha and Omega and most of us will already know about God so ill skip most of that...

But science has recently discovered that there might be a God or higher being whatever. Because the laws of physics make littles sense because the equations are so perfect so precise that its also impossible for it to be so perfect but as usual science destroys god by making up a new "theory" that there is an infinite number of universes and we just happen to be in the right one to sustain life, planets, solar systems, ect ect. And here is the stupid part its impossible for there to be a infinite everything in Science has to end???

So im sorry to say to all them people that don't believe in god, but science takes a lot more faith...

:2fu:

Keeblergiant

Mar 1st, 2005, 12:36 PM

You have no freaking clue what you're talking about. You probably read some pop-science crap book by Kaku or Green and now think that Science allows for the existence of God exists. FYI, the Scientific method assumes metaphysical naturalism. Please, tell me your "theory" that adds credibility to the concept of God. You obviously don't even understand the multiverse theory, so why are you trying to critique it? And how does science take more faith that religion? Science is the study of the material world, the world that we can see, feel, and observe. How does it take more faith to believe what I can observe that what I can't?

Keeblergiant

Mar 1st, 2005, 12:42 PM

And here is the stupid part its impossible for there to be a infinite everything in Science has to end???

I'm sorry about the second post, but I felt this required special attention. What the heck is this asking? You try and say science is wrong, yet you cannot even form basic sentences. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not going to refute this with just ad homs, but I have a much easier refutation to the "scientific" portion of your question; science doesn't say anything about the impossibilities of infinities, unless it goes against observations. I'm sure the majority of the physics community wouldn't accept some form of the multiverse hypothesis (yes, despite what you say it is a hypothesis) if it was was impossible.

MoonlapseV

Mar 1st, 2005, 7:54 PM

But science has recently discovered that there might be a God or higher being whatever. Because the laws of physics make littles sense because the equations are so perfect so precise that its also impossible for it to be so perfect but as usual science destroys god by making up a new "theory" that there is an infinite number of universes and we just happen to be in the right one to sustain life, planets, solar systems, ect ect. And here is the stupid part its impossible for there to be a infinite everything in Science has to end???

Wow.

First of all, science has never claimed any of its theories or laws to be absolutely perfect. How can humans who are imperfect create equations and understand things that are perfect? That is beyond me. I can't imagine science EVER going so far as to say that something is perfect.

And then you say that science tries to "destroy" god by just popping out theories? AMAZING! I can't imagine the scientists who are religious would want to "pop out" theories for no reason to destroy their god unless there was some observable proof to validate the theory. Theories aren't just "made up." They are formulated after observation and scrutinization of data or occurrences etc...

And last of all, I can't recall science ever saying there was an infinite amount of universes. They havn't even settled on the fact that there could even be more than 1 universe so to say that is totally without logic.

All of this is to my knowledge and if any part of this is wrong, please point it out so I can be corrected.

adroit

Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:11 AM

And last of all, I can't recall science ever saying there was an infinite amount of universes. They havn't even settled on the fact that there could even be more than 1 universe so to say that is totally without logic.

Science has been saying it for quite some time... and to keeblergiant i seen a documentry about it, and it had some of the most reputable scientists in it. And it also did say about most things end some scientist some would disagree with this yes im not discounting that but all i was trying to get accross was that the universe is to perfect and science cant explain it so there conclusion was there may be a god or a multiverse... and if you want to check up on it to see if im not just making this up as i asume you do... the documentry was called "What We Still Dont Know" im sure there is somthing on the net about it....

And in the next reply i would watch what you type no one likes arrogance

Keeblergiant

Mar 3rd, 2005, 4:37 PM

and to keeblergiant i seen a documentry about it, and it had some of the most reputable scientists in it. And it also did say about most things end some scientist some would disagree with this yes im not discounting that but all i was trying to get accross was that the universe is to perfect and science cant explain it so there conclusion was there may be a god or a multiverse...

I don't see any reason why science can't explain it. And why do you think our universe is perfect? Our universe is far from perfect. Just because we exist does not make the universe perfect, nor does it make us special. We exist because that's how the universe played out. That's all.

buttsteezy

Mar 11th, 2005, 12:42 AM

Well there is no way that the bible is true maybe some things are true. But Some of the things in the bible are just completely just whack I mean are you kidding me the great flood, Adam and Eve, and many other things. First of all there is no way that Noah lived over 100 years when the oldest person we have on record is like 120 and if there was Adam and Eve then we would all be related and they said that the world was created like 8000 years ago when we have evidence of Human beings that go back farther than that and dinosaurs that are 80 million years old. I mean seriously the bible and the ten commandments were only created to keep us in line so people just don't go out and just kill whoever they feel like without a consequence. It is mind boggling how so many believe that if they are good in their life that they will go to heaven or if they are bad they will go to hell. If any religion is right it would be buddhism where you are reincarnated. that is the most logical religion. And for all you freaks that believe that the bible is true just cause like 2 out of 10,000 prophecies are true you are just a bunch of idiots.

buttsteezy

Mar 11th, 2005, 12:52 AM

So im sorry to say to all them people that don't believe in god, but science takes a lot more faith...

Okay this is just and idiotic thing to say cause you have to take in consideration that there is a lot more evidence of the earth being created by a big bang and not by god. Cause how can you even get evidence of god even existing? You can't there is no evidence of him or her or it. The only supposed evidence they have of god is the Bible which is complete and total bullshit. So you have no evidence of god so that requires a lot more faith. But in Science there is a ton of evidence, some of it has loop holes and religous people say that Science has more holes in it's evidence than religion does but what evidence of god is there to have loop holes in it. So Adroit I'm sorry to say to you and all the religous morons that it takes all the faith in the world to believe in something that there is no evidence of besides a book that some people made up.

buttsteezy

Mar 11th, 2005, 12:57 AM

voxpopulisuxx

Mar 11th, 2005, 10:40 AM

just writing this so I can se my name in every top message board...lol

Mirazh

Mar 11th, 2005, 12:41 PM

What came first? Man or God? heh

Keeblergiant

Mar 11th, 2005, 2:11 PM

Why does the Universe keep expanding if there wasn't a big bang huh. Yeah they have even proved that the universe keeps expanding cause the galaxies are moving in opposite directions possibly cause of the Big Bang which is the theory that has the biggest base of evidence supporting it unlike god creating the entire universe.

The expansion of the universe is a consequence of GR, not necessarily the big bang theory. The evidence for the big bang is much more solid than just the expansion of the universe, with evidence such as nearly uniform cosmic microwave background radiation (nice set of words, eh?).

adroit

Mar 17th, 2005, 1:13 PM

buttsteezy -
Why does the Universe keep expanding if there wasn't a big bang huh. Yeah they have even proved that the universe keeps expanding cause the galaxies are moving in opposite directions possibly cause of the Big Bang which is the theory that has the biggest base of evidence supporting it unlike god creating the entire universe.

Scientist cant even agree with each other at least most christian religions can beleive almost the same just look at it in a different view...

Actually some scientist beleive its slowing down for what reason there not fully sure but some beleive its going to crunch back up....

And we dont have conclusive evidence of humans dating back that far if we did there would be some very big arguments and religion would break down so "buttsteezy" its best you move on because at least Keeblergiant can make a fair argument in the matter :headbang:

and heres a MEGA!!! dumbed down version of the big bang....

you have a pile of bricks, wood, metal, wires, glass, and on day this pile just explodes without reason without cause (cause and effect) and just lands into a perfect set of houses...

take a good think about it...

and yes you are right how can we prove that god exist well to a religios person you look around and you can see it but for somone thats scared like yourself... well your fucked :)

DontBeAfraid

Mar 17th, 2005, 2:58 PM

adroit.... your big bang anology was.....

Keeblergiant

Mar 17th, 2005, 5:20 PM

Actually some scientist beleive its slowing down for what reason there not fully sure but some beleive its going to crunch back up....

I know why...K<0.

MarybethMayfair

Mar 17th, 2005, 10:47 PM

What came first? Man or God? heh
"God created Man in His own image, and Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor."

Inherit the Wind

buttsteezy

Mar 18th, 2005, 1:01 AM

Hey Adroit Scientists have actually discovered that the Universe's expansion rate is actually speeding up, However, more distant galaxies recede from us more quickly than nearby galaxies. Hmm but I guess If you tuned into any actual fact within the last 2 years you would have known that.

here ya go here is the equation for why the Universe is expansion is speeding up.

v = H*r

where v is the speed of a galaxy, H is a number, and r is the distance
of the galaxy from our galaxy, the Milky way. The number H is called
Hubble's constant and its value has produced some of the most heated
debates in all of modern astronomy. The most recent measurements tell us
that the value of H is about 70 km/s/Mpc (where 1 Mpc or megaparsec is
about 3.3 million light years).

Hubble's law says that if galaxy B is twice as far away as galaxy A, B will
receed from us twice as quickly.

oh yeah and what the fuck is this all about it does not explain anything.

you have a pile of bricks, wood, metal, wires, glass, and on day this pile just explodes without reason without cause (cause and effect) and just lands into a perfect set of houses

buttsteezy

Mar 18th, 2005, 1:07 AM

Religion is just a way to keep everyone in line. And Scientists have their own beliefs unlike Christians who all think alike and are ignit morons who will not take in to consideration any other theory about how we were created. Don't you think that "Let there be light is just an analogy for the big bang" I accept that you believe that we all were created by god but I just do not believe it to be true I just go by what has more evidence and obviously there is more evidence of evolution than of Adam and Eve.

Danzaman123

Mar 19th, 2005, 12:25 PM

I never have believed in God and i never will. I find it insulting when im at school and someone says"Praise the Lord". Religious comments in a school, f*** off! Take it somewhere else, perhaps a church or your house!

Keeblergiant

Mar 20th, 2005, 12:39 PM

I find it insulting when im at school and someone says"Praise the Lord". Religious comments in a school, f*** off! Take it somewhere else, perhaps a church or your house!

You find it insulting, I find it funny. It's hard not to laugh when the teacher is talking about Nazis and some moron in the back of the class says "they all need to go to Church and stop hatin'!"

repentantsinner

Mar 30th, 2005, 8:54 AM

I read a suggested answer to this Big Bang theory - it happened somewhere between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. Think about it. WE humans are but a dot on the eternity timeline. Maybe with this perspective - we can better accept the existence of a Creator.Interesting you wrote that Mah, i read the other day that since the middle ages people think there was a looonnng time between genesis 1;1 and 1;2. Thats when the earth became dark. Many believe between genesis 1;1 and 1;2 is when lucifer rebelled, took 1/3 of the angels with him and was cast down to earth. That is why the earth became dark.

repentantsinner

Mar 30th, 2005, 8:59 AM

I don't see any reason why science can't explain it. And why do you think our universe is perfect? Our universe is far from perfect. Just because we exist does not make the universe perfect, nor does it make us special. We exist because that's how the universe played out. That's all.If the universe is not perfect why is the earth JUST the "right" distance from the sun? Closer we would burn, farther we would freeze. Why do we have the ozone layer which protects us from ultraviolet rays? Why do we have an atmosphere when other planets don't. You claim science has all the answers exept the "First cause" question. Why? I believe the answer to be found in Occams razor, God said " let there be life"

Keeblergiant

Mar 30th, 2005, 1:36 PM

If the universe is not perfect why is the earth JUST the "right" distance from the sun?

I answered this question somewhere already. I don't feel like rewriting it, so try and find it. But, the main idea is that it isn't JUST right, there is an allowable error of about 100,000 miles towards and away from the sun before we would have to live with certain extreme conditions. Oh, and you have to remember that we evolved and adapted to the planet as it is now, so these conditions that are extreme to us probably wouldn't be extreme if we'd evolved on a different planet. Your claim is similar to saying that the fish in the ocean are in JUST the right place, because if they were a couple hundred miles in certain other directions they'd choke to death on land. It's a stupid point because fish evolved and adapted to land, where as it's obvious that if an animal evolved and adapted to land (like us) it'd be fine.

Why do we have an atmosphere when other planets don't.

Other planets do have atmospheres.

You claim science has all the answers exept the "First cause" question.

I never said science had ALL of the answers...nor was their a first "cause." (haha)

I believe the answer to be found in Occams razor, God said " let there be life"

You're assuming God exists, of course. Occam's razor won't work if you use it after assuming something that violates Occam's razor (such as the existence of a God...it's much simpler to assume God doesn't exist than he does because you're just complicating the universe).

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Mar 30th, 2005, 5:36 PM

Why do we have the ozone layer which protects us from ultraviolet rays?
Because God wasn't so infallible in our design as to give us UV-resistant skin. And why is God putting a big HOLE in the ozone? You'd think he would make it so that man WOULDN'T be able to affect the ozone so easily.

God said " let there be life"
Boy, the dinosaurs REALLY got SUCKERED into THAT one! Why would God create the dinosaurs and then kill them all off? If he WAS infallible, then he would have realized that wasting several hundred million years tooling with the dinosaurs was going to be a waste of time BEFORE he created them. I'd still like to hear your excuse though...

Thats when the earth became dark. Many believe between genesis 1;1 and 1;2 is when lucifer rebelled, took 1/3 of the angels with him and was cast down to earth. That is why the earth became dark.
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, just stop for a minute. Stop, and forget for a minute that you believe in God. Step back and actually read what you are typing here from an objective viewpoint...

mikem

Apr 1st, 2005, 8:29 AM

I'mnot christian but have a religion with ties to christianity so i felt i had the right to answer your question. The answer is, we have no proof. Nothing we can say or do can prove an afterlife. What we do have though is the begining. So many people focus on "the end" or what will happen to them to discover where they can from. I feel that adam and eve is a crock because of proven scientific discoveries, but we still have not figured out what created out world. yeah theres the big bang, and if that did happen how did that come to happen? Someting created us or set the wheels in motion to create us. That's my proof

Keeblergiant

Apr 1st, 2005, 4:22 PM

yeah theres the big bang, and if that did happen how did that come to happen?

It depends on which quantum gravity conjecture you've taken a liking to. The big bang conjecture is not yet complete.

Someting created us or set the wheels in motion to create us. That's my proof

You have to prove that something had to create us or set us in motion before you can claim it as proof.

mk46

Apr 2nd, 2005, 1:28 PM

I would have to agree with keeblergiant on both of the most recent things he posted. The 1st being that what mikem posted about something creating us or set the wheels in motion to create us.... is still not proof at all. And secondly when repentantsinner claimed that the universe is to perfect to be a coincidence. Think of it like this.... if say the planet venus was capable of sustaining life, while the earth was not, which planet do you think would have life on it. We evolved to fit this planet. We didn't need skin to protect us from UV radiation, because the ozone layer was there. If it wasn't then we either wouldn't be here, or would have some other form of protection. And last but not least.... if god created the universe so perfectly, why do you think we would have earthquakes, tsunami's, tornados, that kill thousands at a time or how about he big hole in the ozone layer. Even though the cause of that is our fault because of pollution... why does pollution affect the ozone layer? God could have easily made it so nothing could destroy it. Or do you have another definition of perfect you would like to share with us?

mikem

Apr 2nd, 2005, 9:40 PM

[QUOTE=mk46]I would have to agree with keeblergiant on both of the most recent things he posted. The 1st being that what mikem posted about something creating us or set the wheels in motion to create us.... is still not proof at all.

true it is not definite proof but it does make you wonder. True we have not fully developed our ideas for the big bang theory but there has to be something for another thing to be created, or am I wrong? I believe that God is the "power" or "force" that created or started it all.

mk46

Apr 2nd, 2005, 10:45 PM

mikem:
but there has to be something for another thing to be created
Why?

mikem

Apr 3rd, 2005, 10:27 AM

I guess there doesn't have to be, I was talking to my brother about it and he said that mass just may have always been here for all eternity. It just seems unlikely

mk46

Apr 3rd, 2005, 3:28 PM

mikem, I'd like to agree with your brother. The reason it seems unlikely, is because you've probably never thought about it like that. I personally believe that it is possibly for mass to have been everywhere for all of time. It could have just been there. I mean just think of the universe as never ending and filling everything. Just being everywhere. Kinda hard huh? What do you think keeblergiant... or anyone else.

mikem

Apr 3rd, 2005, 7:08 PM

yeah its equally possible either way and your right, i do feel its unlikely because i had never thought of it that way. I still have trouble embracing the idea even though i know its equally possible.

Keeblergiant

Apr 3rd, 2005, 9:45 PM

True we have not fully developed our ideas for the big bang theory but there has to be something for another thing to be created, or am I wrong?

Not at all...ever heard of virtual particles? And besides that, when you come into the question of who, if anyone, created us then you are talking about pre-big bang mechanics, which we know nothing about and probably will never know anything about (science only works with what we can test and observe, and we can neither test nor observe anything without a universe).

I guess there doesn't have to be, I was talking to my brother about it and he said that mass just may have always been here for all eternity. It just seems unlikely

And a God that's been here for all eternity doesn't seem unlikely?

mikem

Apr 4th, 2005, 8:53 AM

I think its just as likely as mass being around for all eternity

mk46

Apr 4th, 2005, 10:46 AM

Plus mikem..... If you are still having trouble believing that things just can't have existed for all of time, without something creating them.... how did god come into existence?

Jimrodel

Apr 6th, 2005, 12:38 AM

I'm new here, and just spent the last couple hours reading this thread. Lots of interesting debates, views, comments and thoughts. I'm not an atheist, nor am I a christian. I'm agnostic, a realist, and believe in what I feel is tangible. In my many years of searching, I have never come upon a speck of evidence that a "God" had anything to do with the creation of our planet and the deversifide life that evolved here. If there was anything, just an iota of proof, that a "God" created all this, I'd jump on the Christian band wagon in a heartbeat. But, I know that will never happen.

I do belive in evolution. The evidence of life on earth for billions of years are documented in fosils that are everywhere. The earth has been host to millions and millions of species of plants and animals. There is now one genus, a recent one, that may just destroy this world we know. That creature would be us, the human being. The only animal this planet has ever known, that is destroying it's own habitat, and at a phenomenal rate. Does "God" care this is happening? I think not. Only the scientists of the world have been warning us for years, that our world is in big trouble and we must turn things around now, or risk the total distruction of the human race. I really belive that Mother Nature would love to see us gone so the rest of the animal species survive.

As far as "God" is concerned. The Christian religion believes "God" is all good, and knows all that was and will be. If that is true, how could this all loving "God" let this happen? He would have known before he created man, that the human beings he placed on his beautiful planet would destroy it.

If there is/was a creator of this universe we live in, I believe he/she/it doesn't even know we exsist. Our universe could just be a molecule of a much larger cosmos, and maybe a scientist there made an experiment in a small test tube and created a tiny universe. (and that would be us) Just a thought. :52:

mikem

Apr 6th, 2005, 9:26 AM

[QUOTE=Jimrodel]
As far as "God" is concerned. The Christian religion believes "God" is all good, and knows all that was and will be. If that is true, how could this all loving "God" let this happen? He would have known before he created man, that the human beings he placed on his beautiful planet would destroy it.

Thats why I feel that the christian religion is full of it

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Apr 6th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Hi, Jimrodel! Welcome to the forums. I am agnostic as well and I agree with pretty much everything that you've said. knowledge is a wonderful thing. I've quickly learned here that the religious posters will listen to logic and facts ONLY if it fits with their beliefs. If something is COMPLETELY logical and makes COMPLETE sense, BUT it doesn't fit with their religious beliefs, then it is refuted without question. I am an eye doctor and feel that I am qualified to say that there are MANY blind people posting here. Just wanted to give you a heads up that your faith in the "intelligence" of humanity will be sorely tested in the Religion forum. Again, welcome!

mk46

Apr 6th, 2005, 6:33 PM

Has anyone read The Footprints of God? It's a good book and has a different look on god. The book is fiction... but it raises some good questions.

mikem

Apr 7th, 2005, 12:35 PM

like what?

mk46

Apr 11th, 2005, 7:57 PM

It actually gives a pretty good reason for why god Isn't interfering on earth now-a-days, im sure it is flawed in some way... but it's something to think about.

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Apr 11th, 2005, 8:25 PM

It actually gives a pretty good reason for why god Isn't interfering on earth now-a-days, im sure it is flawed in some way... but it's something to think about.
I just find it to be ironic how atheists and agnostics are always questioning the motives of God and the religious people often respond with vague answers that say that we shouldn't question the motives of God and He works in mysterious ways etc. But when atheists/agnostics come up with a challenging question such as why God isn't interfering on earth nowadays, then religious people think that they CAN decipher God's motives and actually KNOW what He is thinking. To think that one can actually KNOW why God does the things He does is quite pretentious and should NOT be attempted. Books such as the one that mk46 has mentioned simply adds to what atheists/agnostics believe is a growing litany of excuses for God's questionable actions and His questionable inactions. It has always amazed me how MANY excuses regarding God are CONSTANTLY being manufactured by religious people and that this never-ending parade of excuses doesn't at least make them raise an eyebrow...

The Dude

Apr 13th, 2005, 9:32 PM

i used to believe as a child, that god existed and all the bible crap.. now im starting to doubt about it.. i mean.. theres no "proof" that god existed.. just some ppl wrote a book about it and blah blah blah it was made a religion.. why do almost all ppl believe?? because alot of people believe.. their family.. their parents.. they told him there was a god.. and he swallowed it.. one of the things religious ppl tell "no proof" thing is bull is "have faith".. how can i have faith in something i havent even seen?? with this concept then someday some1 will invent a magic dragon called Zulu who created everything.. have faith believe it.. we dont know who or what created the universe.. theres too much to discover to make a theory.. god made it is as ilogical as nothing made it.. but no human can fully understand god or the universe... some people give their lifes for god.. what if everything you believe in is a lie? maybe Jesus was an alien send here.. that would explain alot of things like angels or miracles.. maybe he was not... maybe he was really the son of god.. he cant ever now.. i just can have faith in something my dad says or the mayority says that has no proof or logic... i think every1 has to find their own path.. not joinin one because everyone does or ur parents told you that.. some people think non believers are evil or something.. theyre not.. theyre just arent mindless sheeps.. i bet at least 50% people at church doesnt understand or really believe in god.. some people say that the proof of good is all in the universe because then who created the universe?? but heres a question.. then who created god??

for me god is a little like a fairy tale.. it could be true tho.. but not as in the bible were a beared man says you shoul do that and blah blah blah

mikem

Apr 14th, 2005, 12:56 PM

I think the funniest part of the christian religion is how it is considered a sin to question God's existence. Blind faith is crap.

Savage

May 4th, 2005, 5:36 PM

I hope there is a God, but I can't blindly follow a religion that follows rules that were written by men, not God. The bible for example didn't fall from heaven. It was written by men, men with objectives, and motivations. People go to church, not to worship God, but to ask for forgiveness, because they haven't followed the rules of their religion. Then they get forgiven, go out, sleep with a hooker, while the wife is at home with the kids, go back to church the next week, get forgiveness and do it all over again, and again, and again. But because they went to church, they will go to heaven? I'm not so sure that, that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. Is that the kind of heaven you want to go to? Not me. I want to go to a heaven that is rewarding to the people that lived good lives. Is there a heaven for those people? Do they have to belong to a religion? HMMMMMM

Defiant Noquisi

May 8th, 2005, 8:08 PM

Not only that Savage but many of the things written in the bible are not followed by those who espouse its "teachings".

BTW, welcome to the boards if I have not posted it elsewhere. :)

nrj

May 10th, 2005, 3:08 PM

I do not know if it exists a god, and people who have had relevations dont sound proving enough to me. so, I am an agnostic!

Houston411

May 10th, 2005, 4:37 PM

God they should just make this site dedicated to religion, thats the only thing that ever goes on around this site.

Defiant Noquisi

May 15th, 2005, 10:39 AM

God they should just make this site dedicated to religion, thats the only thing that ever goes on around this site. Apparently you have forgotten that this does happen to be in the Religion sub forum. I know you can figure out the rest since youve been posting outside of Religion.

Rasher_hgr

May 21st, 2005, 6:52 PM

hi i am a fourteen year old atheist. i do not believe in god because i have read books about evolution and how god is physically and just plain impossible.

Houston411

May 21st, 2005, 6:54 PM

There could be a superior being, but I'd like to think thats the thoughts in your head that are so awe-inspiring, but you can't get them from the "Pen to paper" for lack of a better saying.

dommedagssalme

Jun 9th, 2005, 6:30 PM

Disregarding any question of evolution or creation, science or religion, is not religion, particularly christianity, exceedingly fallable?

Isn't it strange that god has changed from a vengeful, spiteful god, to a meek, pathetic, loving god. It seems to me that the evolution of the christian god is good evidence that this god is a fabrication, changing as the people change.

Originally, god embodied all the pride and "will to power", of a certain people, who used god to affirm their own existance. It was originally a channel through which the people could express their gratitude for their own existance. However, when Jesus died on the cross, god gradually altered to reflect the spiteful nature of the small group of christians who had to try to make sense of the seemingly senseless death of the "son of god". The result of this making sense of the development was a gross distortion of who Jesus was (this is not to imply that he was worth anything, incidentally).

The new character of Jesus enabled the small group of deranged and confused disciples to revenge themselves upon the Jews. By claiming that Jesus was the "way to heaven", the christians could detach themselves from reality, by creating a whole new, imaginary framework of ideas which was, if not true, more importantly exclusive to them.

Christianity was able to tap into the human desire to be controlled. Many people find comfort in being told that something is the case without reason. The fact that the greatest sin is doubt implies that christianity is an authority which has justification simply in claiming to exist. A lot of christians say that it is OK to question your faith, healthy, even. Well, I'm afraid that the bible forbid this, so shut up and believe, or be cast into the fiery furnace for all eternity.

The argument that one just has to look around oneself and see how far man has come, to see "evidence" of god, is incorrect. Firstly, that man has achieved certain inventions and developed an increasingly complex society does not mean that man has improved. In fact, man is currently at its most diluted, unnatural and degenerate stage. Secondly, regardless of whether the evolution of man and society is good or not, is it not man who has reached its current position? Why is there any need to assume that god is responsible? There is quite simply no reason to assume anything other than what appears to be the case. To believe christianity one simply has to ignore the senses, because everything that my senses tell me clearly shows that god is nowhere to be seen. Therefore, the assumption that the presence of god can be shown through the activities and achievements of man is simply a miscalculation.

Religion, principally christianity, is not only disabling a large proportion of the population, but it is also responsible for the existence of a false secular morality, itself a reaction to the christian values. What is "good" and what is "evil" is synonymous with what is useful and harmful to society as a whole. They are not absolute values, but ideas used to facilitate the functioning of a society.

Finally, if the existence of god is so "obvious" to you christians when you just look around, then why does there need to be a religion to inform of the existence of god? I would hypothesize that if one of the christians posting here were born and lived a life without being subjected to the concept of god in any way, the idea of god would simply not occur to them, because it is anything but "obvious". The idea of god must be institutionalised from an early age so one acceplt it as the truth. Otherwise, those with a weak constitution may succumb to the safety offered by christianity. I used to consider myself a christian (when I think about it I never really was), but i know that I got used to saying things just like "no, it's naive not to believe in god". I now realise just how stupid I was. At the time I got a surge of power from saying this. Also, I felt an obligation to claim to be a christian, simply because I had no conception that anything else could be the case, or perhaps knew that any attempt to break free of christianity would result in the loss of friends, respect of family and a disintegration of the little world I lived in, centered on christianity. When most of your social and family life is based around the church and christianity, it is hard to picture a life without it. Hence, one learns to instinctively champion christianity without justification, simply because it is "what is done". Christianity can be explained through psychology, and it soon becomes clear that there are certain characteristics which are frequently associated with christianity, such as submissiveness, meekness, physical deficiency, and everything else that constitutes a failure in human development. It is simply a matter of time until christianity becomes obsolete. The fact that it is 2000 years old lends it some authority, it somehow seems more genuine because it happend some time ago. However, in the grand scheme of things, 2000 years is an exceptionally short period and in the future, notion of god shall be looked back on as a regrettable period in human existence.

If anyone has been offended by any of what I have written, you acknowledge it as true, even if you are too tainted to realise it.

Defiant Noquisi

Jun 9th, 2005, 8:16 PM

Welcome to AO domm and I hope you post more! What you posted above is amazing!

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jun 10th, 2005, 3:20 PM

Well said, domm. VERY well said. Did you end up losing some friends and family because of your shunning of Christianity?

Defiant Noquisi

Jun 12th, 2005, 2:38 PM

Ugh, I know I did but the doctors said I am doing much better now.

Assassin X

Jun 16th, 2005, 1:28 AM

Wow so you typed a big post. Your educated and used big words. "I think hes a smart one Jeb".

Can you prove he does exist? Can you prove he doesnt? Nope, no one can. Gods more provable then any other religon.

People cant scientificly prove modern day miracles. And media wont cover it? Why? To afraid of the truth? Localy one of the stations here is actually doing "religous" stories and while some may not reflect that well on certain religions there are some that defy logic and science. And its funny because the station plays or reads the feedback of pissed people that the stuff was setup.

People accept gays, people accept pedophiles and murderes (when they get out of prison eventually) living next store to them but when it comes to someone that believes in GOD well..... hold the phone lets fight them back!

bbbv3.5

Jul 6th, 2005, 9:52 AM

But you cant prove he doesnt exsist. The day you prove he doesnt you cans ay all you want. We have faith in our God or gods so you can go be small minded and think the rest of us 95 percent of the world are under a delusion and you are right.

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jul 6th, 2005, 10:02 AM

We have faith in our God or gods so you can go be small minded and think the rest of us 95 percent of the world are under a delusion and you are right.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! LOL!!! << wipes a tear from his eye and then reads the post again >> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! Ahhh, that's good reading...

P.S. - We're STILL waiting for God to show himself to us in the "Show Thyself" thread...

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jul 6th, 2005, 10:06 AM

One more thing for bbbv2.0 to ponder: The ENTIRE WORLD believed that the Earth was FLAT several hundred years ago. Just because a majority of people believe something does NOT make them right about it. Another example: I was watching "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" the other day and the question was "What is the Capitol City of Australia". The contestant asked the audience and about 90% of them thought that it was Sydney. Guess what? They were WRONG. So your "logic" that the majority of the world believing in gods must make it true is quite simply laughable... and thus I laughed...

Mezurashi

Jul 7th, 2005, 9:35 AM

Has anyone considered the possibility that Jake99 is God? I know this is on other threads but there's been a whole shitload of 'God-Talk' lately.

maybe all the God threads could be unified into one, big, rambling, messy, hard to read pile of rhetoric and vitriol from all sides.

Then it would be almost, but not quite, like the state of world Christianity itself.

Just a suggestion (come one DeathCometh, hit me with your best shot but please show some creativity).

CaucasionMale

Jul 14th, 2005, 10:37 AM

No I do not believe in god

ok...for those of you who are atheist...is it not worth a penny to believe in jesus christ and have eternal life than whatever belief you may have about life after death? What do you gain by believing in no god? live no more than 100 years and die? than what?... It doesnt hurt to believe in Jesus and have eternal life...its a win-win situation...If you had a choice between: humans came from some pathetic monkies or we were god's special creation...which would you prefer? its better to die believing in something than believing nothing... :lol:Fair enough, but I will never, NEVER believe that humans, the earth, and the entire universe was created by god, and even though I don't believe in religion, and follow any religion, I do believe in ghosts and reincarnation.

I thought I'd also mention that humans exist because of evolution, nothing more, (we are primates after all, just like the almost genetically identical chimpanzee), and if humans didn't evolve into a more intelligent species (although humans never were intelligent), religion and god wouldn't exist, because we aren't Gods creation, God is our creation (simple), and although I've never read the bible, there are SO many contradictions in the bible, and so many things in the bible that are just plain WRONG (science proves that).

About what mozartkugeln said about what harm is there in believing....well, none of course, but why believe in something that you SHOULD know isn't real? (no point), and I sincerely believe that the world would've been so much better if humans didn't create god/religion (you heard me).

I had no intention of offending anyone with my post (if anyone was), but this has been on my chest for awhile, and I needed to get it off BIG TIME.

nrj

Jul 14th, 2005, 3:06 PM

I would rather believe we dont have a destiny but can work together to make up a good society. If we would have a destiny, then we would not be able to do what we want. Only what the "Lord" wanted us to do.

FiFi40

Jul 17th, 2005, 5:16 AM

No I do not believe in god
Fair enough, but I will never, NEVER believe that humans, the earth, and the entire universe was created by god, and even though I don't believe in religion, and follow any religion, I do believe in ghosts and reincarnation.

I thought I'd also mention that humans exist because of evolution, nothing more, (we are primates after all, just like the almost genetically identical chimpanzee), and if humans didn't evolve into a more intelligent species (although humans never were intelligent), religion and god wouldn't exist, because we aren't Gods creation, God is our creation (simple), and although I've never read the bible, there are SO many contradictions in the bible, and so many things in the bible that are just plain WRONG (science proves that).

About what mozartkugeln said about what harm is there in believing....well, none of course, but why believe in something that you SHOULD know isn't real? (no point), and I sincerely believe that the world would've been so much better if humans didn't create god/religion (you heard me).

I had no intention of offending anyone with my post (if anyone was), but this has been on my chest for awhile, and I needed to get it off BIG TIME.

Evolving from primates is rubbish. If that was true there would be no primates left they would have all evolved by now. Or are you going to say that the primates had one baby that looked human and another that still looked like a primate. How would you explain all the different races then? Thats explained in the bible (the 12 tribes that scattered)

DontBeAfraid

Jul 17th, 2005, 9:09 AM

There is a challenging evolution thread in the science section.

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jul 17th, 2005, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by mozartkugeln
ok...for those of you who are atheist...is it not worth a penny to believe in jesus christ and have eternal life than whatever belief you may have about life after death? What do you gain by believing in no god? live no more than 100 years and die? than what?... It doesnt hurt to believe in Jesus and have eternal life...its a win-win situation...If you had a choice between: humans came from some pathetic monkies or we were god's special creation...which would you prefer? its better to die believing in something than believing nothing...
What do you gain by believing in no Santa Claus? It doesn't hurt to believe in Santa and get presents every year. If you had a choice between Santa Claus delivering wonderful presents or it was just your parents going to Wal-Mart to buy the presents, which would you prefer? It's better to die believing in Santa than believing in nothing. Do you see how STUPID your argument is?

Evolving from primates is rubbish. If that was true there would be no primates left they would have all evolved by now. Or are you going to say that the primates had one baby that looked human and another that still looked like a primate. How would you explain all the different races then? Thats explained in the bible (the 12 tribes that scattered)
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you for real? All of us who actually UNDERSTAND the concept of evolution are laughing our asses off right now. Clearly, you don't understand the concept. I'm not even going to attempt to correct your ignorance because you are SO FAR off base that it would take way too much typing to correct. Do yourself a favor and don't talk about evolution as though you actually understand it. You make yourself look stupid when you do. And not only do you incorrectly describe evolution, but you go further and inanely attempt to explain the "real" reason why we have different races which is equally laughable. Okay, I'll bite. How exactly do morphological changes occur simply by these 12 tribes scattering? I look forward to an entertaining response...

Follow DontBeAfraid's advice and continue this on the evolution thread. They'll get a kick out of you...

repentantsinner

Jul 17th, 2005, 12:29 PM

Ever hear about Stephan Hawking changing his tune and beleving in some "creator" of the univers. Hear how people are recently starting to disprove the big bang?

repentantsinner

Jul 17th, 2005, 12:32 PM

repentantsinner

Jul 17th, 2005, 12:33 PM

:gtfo: :amaz: :nudge: forget this post,i hit the wrong button.

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jul 17th, 2005, 2:50 PM

The way it is going now the "Majority " does not believe in Jesus, does that make THEM wrong?
No, it makes them intelligent...

CaucasionMale

Jul 17th, 2005, 9:33 PM

Out of fear of going off topic too much, I didn't want to post this, but I have to show everyone that FiFi40 didn't read what he/she wrote in his/her post.

Evolving from primates is rubbish. If that was true there would be no primates left they would have all evolved by now.
You've got to be kidding? LOL, what the hell are humans?

I have nothing else to say about this (just so this dosn't turn into an evolution topic).

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 18th, 2005, 7:27 PM

One more thing for bbbv2.0 to ponder: The ENTIRE WORLD believed that the Earth was FLAT several hundred years ago. Eh, not the entire world dear. ;)

Defiant Noquisi

Jul 18th, 2005, 7:33 PM

The Hopi indians knew the world was round. It's in their mythology, the 'Great spirit" told them. The Hopi werent the only ones but thank you for pointing this out. Most if not all Indian tribes of the Americas knew the Earth was round. Many of them equated the Earth with the shell of a turtle in that the turtles shell is not solid; it is made up of "plates" that move and flex when needed, just like the Earth.

BaastetNoir

Jul 19th, 2005, 2:00 PM

I belive in a higher beeing....if thats God ...so be it ... :2thumbs:

pablo

Jul 31st, 2005, 6:32 AM

no no no no no no.

pablo out.

Defiant Noquisi

Aug 10th, 2005, 5:34 PM

Welcome to the forums pablo! Im not sure of the "black country" reference but two immediately come to mind and thats the Black Country of industrialized UK and Africa. Im going to assume Ill be wrong on this however. Enjoy the forums!

dominicsfalar

Aug 16th, 2005, 9:43 PM

Please refer to:
Thread --->Third Secret of Fatima states that Mary is God.
or
http://www.fatimadogma.bravehost.com

Sammy56

Aug 16th, 2005, 11:25 PM

Have you posted that link in enough places? I think some people might have missed it....

Protostar

Aug 17th, 2005, 12:18 PM

Um, if Mary was god believe me, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE CREATED FARTS.
That is such a guy thing........

Philosopher Foelhe

Aug 20th, 2005, 1:35 AM

Keeblergiant

Aug 20th, 2005, 1:46 AM

I do indeed believe in God, or some powerful force at the very least. I've seen, sensed and heard of some pretty weird things in my life, and while I know none of them conclusively prove there is something out there, it's gotten past the point where I can just dismiss them as coincidence.

For some reason I've always been able to find an explanation for things that have happened to me--things that other people would call divine intervention or something of the like. Even when I was a kid and believe in God, I didn't believe he intervened in our world at all (because I never experienced anything I couldn't explain), and for some reason I never had an emotional connection to him either. I believed in him because my parents told me he existed, and when you're a kid you believe it when your parents say stuff like that. I always hated not being able to connect with God on an emotional level--it always made me feel as if God never liked me or something. I used to go away on church retreats and to church camps (I still do actually...they're fun) and when it came to the part of the retreat that everyone started crying and talking about how they felt God's presence and blah blah blah, I would just sit there. I never felt anything, and that's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God now. Everyone else seems to feel an emotional connection, but I don't. I can't. I've tried. Anyways, this lack of emotion led me to question my beliefs, which eventually led me to consider them stupid and naive. And here we are today.

nrj

Aug 20th, 2005, 2:54 AM

How did I miss this thread? Ah, well.

I do indeed believe in God, or some powerful force at the very least. I've seen, sensed and heard of some pretty weird things in my life, and while I know none of them conclusively prove there is something out there, it's gotten past the point where I can just dismiss them as coincidence.

Not a particularly powerful argument, I'll admit. But I'm here for the rebuttals. :2thumbs: This is what I find strange. If God now believe in free will, how could he have the right to interfere with any ones life? When I ask theists about the Holocaust, they say this happened because we humans chosed it, and God couldn't do anything. Why not raze all the concentration camps and fuck will for a second or two, I usually answer to this, and they say that he can not do that. I just thought it was strange I saw a post by you were you state he can do that.

Philosopher Foelhe

Aug 20th, 2005, 3:53 AM

For some reason I've always been able to find an explanation for things that have happened to me--things that other people would call divine intervention or something of the like. Even when I was a kid and believe in God, I didn't believe he intervened in our world at all (because I never experienced anything I couldn't explain), and for some reason I never had an emotional connection to him either. I believed in him because my parents told me he existed, and when you're a kid you believe it when your parents say stuff like that. I always hated not being able to connect with God on an emotional level--it always made me feel as if God never liked me or something. I used to go away on church retreats and to church camps (I still do actually...they're fun) and when it came to the part of the retreat that everyone started crying and talking about how they felt God's presence and blah blah blah, I would just sit there. I never felt anything, and that's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God now.

... Wow, that sucks. I wish I could tell you why that is, why some people "get it" and some don't. The only thing I can really say is that Christians lie - not everyone who wants to Know God really gets to. It... pisses me off, sometimes, to be honest. I don't get it. I guess all I can do is hope God has a good reason, and thank my lucky stars I get to know him this time around.

This is what I find strange. If God now believe in free will, how could he have the right to interfere with any ones life? When I ask theists about the Holocaust, they say this happened because we humans chosed it, and God couldn't do anything. Why not raze all the concentration camps and fuck will for a second or two, I usually answer to this, and they say that he can not do that. I just thought it was strange I saw a post by you were you state he can do that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if we have a just and loving God (which, frankly, I'm not always sure of) death is not the end. What happened to people during the Holocaust was tragic, certainly, but they left that tragedy behind and moved on. Or they survived, and the situation tested them, changed them, sometimes made them stronger. And, yes, sometimes made them weaker. But what good is a test you can't fail?

*sigh* But I dunno. Maybe God just likes the story. You're shocked when one of the good guys dies in a really good movie, maybe that's what he's been going for - throw us together and watch us bounce off one another like fools.

nrj

Aug 20th, 2005, 4:34 AM

Philosopher Foelhe

Aug 20th, 2005, 4:43 AM

I don't really know about that. I mean, you cannot say WWII was an event that ended. It was just as fucked up as before. All the countries freed by the Russians became parts of the Soviet Union. All freed by the United States became capitalist countries. Mao toke China and turned into the Peoples Republic of China, Korea became a war zone. It was not really a story with a happy ending, if you can say that it has ended at all.

... Well, when I said "they left the tragedy behind and moved on", I was talking about the Jews, Gypsies, gays, communists, political opponents of Hitler etc. etc. etc. who were killed. They "moved on" to another plane of existance. In theory.

But if you're talking about the story... well, some people love a tragedy. And the credits have to roll sometime - maybe God sort've considered that story "over" when Nazi Germany fell, and this is just a crappy sequal. It's like those romantic comedies, when the credits roll at the end with the two lovers embracing, but they're such neurotic twits you just know they'll be miserable and divorced within five years.

nrj

Aug 20th, 2005, 10:06 AM

Yeah, but the credits didn't roll when Nazi Germany fell. Japan were still fighting. And when they were defeated, the US were speculating a war with the russians. And when that ended, the capitalist's had to hate the Middle East. And in the middle, we have the neutral Sweden and Switzerland who just watch the world explode, since nobody gives a shit about us. I mean, seriously, who would want Sweden? We have no political power, no oil and we are always "doing the right thing and stay out of others buisiness". I actually speculated about this, and maybe the whole history of time is a movie if we have a higher being. But, this is off topic. Be a theist, I don't care. You are fun to debate with any way.

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Aug 20th, 2005, 2:02 PM

I mean, seriously, who would want Sweden? We have no political power, no oil and we are always "doing the right thing and stay out of others buisiness".
You have the Swedish Bikini Team! Who wouldn't want that? YOWZA!!!

nrj

Aug 20th, 2005, 2:13 PM

B.Nye... I am laughing so hard when I read this now! :Llol:

Virgo

Nov 28th, 2005, 8:33 AM

I beleive in God. The christian God, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit (haha! that moment in "Four weddings and a funeral." when Roan Atkinson says: "The Holy Sibling" OMG! XD).

I don't care to argue with any atheist just now, so I'll just state my opinion and read the posts above another time.

Ps. Nrj: We have really good iron ore. And lots of good solid wood (pine etc. etc.).
Sweden also has: IKEA, Meatballs (found in IKEA), Semlor (a cream and marsipan filled bun), BIG Cinnemon Buns, Polkagrisar (Polka-pigs, a mint candy) and much much more which you can't go on living without ^^ Ds.

Keeblergiant

Nov 29th, 2005, 1:02 AM

I don't care to argue with any atheist just now, so I'll just state my opinion and read the posts above another time.

Don't worry. Unless you go around vigilantly (ahem, vox) promoting your religion, telling other people they are wrong because their ideas don't mesh with your religious opinions, or making absolute statements about things in religion we can't know (ie, I know atheists are wrong, or the christian god is the only god) you probably have nothing to worry about. Basically, respect others beliefs and your will be too (unless you start talking like Hitler and plotting to exterminate the jews because they killed Jesus...that kind of stuff tends to get negative responses towards your religion...but I think that's obvious).

Beatnik Bob

Nov 29th, 2005, 6:17 PM

Hitler and plotting to exterminate the jews because they killed Jesus...that kind of stuff tends to get negative responses towards your religion...but I think that's obvious).
I never really understood that whole Jews killed Jesus thing. But isn't it because of the Jews killing Jesus that everyone was saved. :D

Also, it wasn't only because of the Jews killing Jesus, Hitler simply upheld Christian ideology, and believed that Jews were the lowest form of human, next to dirt, we were the scum on the street.....

CurtisC

Dec 3rd, 2005, 5:40 AM

Virgo

Dec 3rd, 2005, 4:01 PM

Philosopher Foelhe

Dec 3rd, 2005, 5:45 PM

ok...for those of you who are atheist...is it not worth a penny to believe in jesus christ and have eternal life than whatever belief you may have about life after death? What do you gain by believing in no god? live no more than 100 years and die? than what?... It doesnt hurt to believe in Jesus and have eternal life...its a win-win situation...If you had a choice between: humans came from some pathetic monkies or we were god's special creation...which would you prefer? its better to die believing in something than believing nothing..

I don't even know where this quote comes from, but I might as well jump on the Quote Train. :D

First off, it bothers me that your message basically boils down to, "Pay lip service to God, 'cause even if you don't actually believe in him, it's best to hedge your bets." That strikes me as a tad bit disrespectful to what may be an omnipotent and omnipresent being which has apparently been concerned for our wellfare for a long time now. If he exists.

Secondly, I'm a bit confused. You speak as if anyone who does believe in Christianity is granted eternal life, and anyone who is an atheist just vanishes from existance after they die. I suppose there's a remote possibility that this is true, but it strikes me as unlikely, unless you're just talking about heaven and hell.

Which brings me to my final point - you act like there's no reason to believe in anything but Christianity. But there are reasons, which you'll understand if you pay attention to the non-Christians on the board. Some, like Curtis, don't like the rules. Some gather strength from the belief that they control their destiny. Some don't want the distraction while they try to figure out how the world works. I personally have ethical problems with some of the beliefs of the church - the belief that all non-Christians burn in hell, for instance.

You chose the Christian church because it works for you. Good. But this is not a one-size-fits-all situation. Beliefs and values are very personal things, and to give everyone the same belief system because "at least you get your money's worth" is to miss a very important part of the human condition.

Defiant Noquisi

Dec 3rd, 2005, 7:27 PM

But this is not a one-size-fits-all situation. Beliefs and values are very personal things, and to give everyone the same belief system because "at least you get your money's worth" is to miss a very important part of the human condition. That is the most astounding post on this issue I have ever read! BRAVO! Excellent topic points, you explain it factually and without the "fluff". This post should be the standard by which all "believers" in one way or another, treat others. Thanks for a brilliant post. You just got a spot right up there with MM.

Sabazi

Dec 4th, 2005, 1:28 PM

I believe in God.

DF, the link doesn't seem to work.

Sage

Dec 17th, 2005, 9:26 AM

Sure I believe in HER!
Thats why SHE wears the title the mother of harlots that has deceived the whole world.
Should you be one of her victims you don't know it.

sage

lordofthemystic

Dec 30th, 2005, 3:16 PM

I believe in all the possibilities, in fact it is I that make them happen.

godgivengift951

Dec 31st, 2005, 5:39 PM

nrj

Dec 31st, 2005, 6:12 PM

i do believe in god very much. for the non believers-i dont get what would hurt just to believe.if god really is real and there is a hell i think it would be better to stick to the safe side and believe rather than burn in hell for eternal and everlasting life.if u were brought up being-lets say a strong christian-and grew up and CHOSE to not believe in god himself then u will probobly NOT make it to heaven-if there is one.and u would probobly go to Hades.Man will Never Know for a fact if there is a god but u have to have faith.

If you had to chose between believing that Rudolph is our savior, master and the perfect beeing, and thus being a good boy before christmas also saved you from eternal judgement, or not; wich would you chose? If you to were to chose between believing that the Earth is flat, or not; wich would you chose?

I mean, does it hurt believing that the Earth is flat? Would it hurt believing that the four Wienermen of the Apocalypse will come showing up hot dogs in your ass to?

I chose to base my beliefs upon proof. Hasn't hurt me, neither has it made me unhappy. Why should I change my mind and believe something wich cannot be proven, nor have occured to me? Name one good reason, please.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 1st, 2006, 1:08 AM

i do believe in god very much. for the non believers-i dont get what would hurt just to believe.if god really is real and there is a hell i think it would be better to stick to the safe side and believe rather than burn in hell for eternal and everlasting life.

When Hitler took over Germany, and began to kill political opponents and members of fringe groups he didn't like, the citizens of Germany had two choices. They could pay lip service to Hitler, and be safe during his regime, or they could speak against his inhumane practices and risk being arrested or worse.

I choose the second option. Eternal life isn't worth shit if you have to live it with the knowledge of the horrible torture of millions of souls, many of whom were good and decent people who just didn't go to the right church. And all the while you were singing the praises of the being that did that to them. Fuck that, I'd rather burn.

Keeblergiant

Jan 1st, 2006, 2:15 PM

i do believe in god very much. for the non believers-i dont get what would hurt just to believe.if god really is real and there is a hell i think it would be better to stick to the safe side and believe rather than burn in hell for eternal and everlasting life.if u were brought up being-lets say a strong christian-and grew up and CHOSE to not believe in god himself then u will probobly NOT make it to heaven-if there is one.and u would probobly go to Hades.Man will Never Know for a fact if there is a god but u have to have faith.

First of all, I just can't force myself to believe what my heart tells me is wrong. Do you honestly think you could just stop believing in God all of the sudden? No, and I just can't start believing in him. And second, I would rather burn in hell than chill in heaven with some omnipotent, albeit not omnibenevolent, being if he's going to condemn me to be tortured for the rest of my life because I don't believe he exists. Please, somebody needs to be listening to their own fucking sermons if that's what's going to happen. "You need to forgive others for the sins they commit against you...ummm, that applies to you and not me because I'm a fucking hypocrite." That's what the bible should say.

nanite1018

Jan 7th, 2006, 8:24 PM

The best theory mankind has for explaining the physical laws of the universe is M-theory. M-theory is formulated in 11-dimensions. Physicists think that many, perhaps an infinite number, of universes exist and that ours is only seperated from them by a very short distance through another dimension. The only way to interact with these other universes is to attain incredibly high energies 10^15 times what is possible with the Large Hadron Collider. Now, all of these universes would have different laws of physics. Since there is an infinite number, than the universe we see is simply one of many (infinity in fact) that coexist in hyperspace. Many universes will not support life, others will support life. Some will have precisely the laws of physics we see. In fact, all possible timelines will exist in this "multiverse." This is the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Every solution of the wave funtion of a particle is real, all probabilities occur, because the universe splits into an infinite number of other universes for each individual possibility. Therefore, there is a universe in which Jesus was never born, you died a week ago, the Nazis won the war, etc. Therefore, the universe is the way it is because some unvierses must have these laws of physics, and this timeline, simply becuase there is an infinite number of universes. The multiverse has existed for eternity, so there was no need for a creator, since it has been around forever, and no creator is necessary for the universe to be the way we see it. No Creator must be evoked.

Plus, if you think about it, there is no reason to believe in God. God should not give purpose to your life, you should. EVeryone should work to make the world a better place than how we found it, to give our offspring a better chance for survival and a better quality of life. So, there is no evidence, and no reason, to believe in God other than for personal comfort, which is a sign of perosnal weakness.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 8th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Plus, if you think about it, there is no reason to believe in God.

Ah, bold words. I like it when people start out with bold words.

EVeryone should work to make the world a better place than how we found it, to give our offspring a better chance for survival and a better quality of life.

Why?

there is no evidence, and no reason, to believe in God other than for personal comfort, which is a sign of perosnal weakness.

By this argument, a strong person should never want to be with someone they care about, and they should never want sleep, and they should never want to succeed, because all these things are comforting. Dismissing personal comfort as a weakness is, I'm sorry, kind of stupid.

cuonthemoon

Jan 8th, 2006, 6:17 AM

Not much has changed since his death, we still stumble through life thinking that we know the truth or better yet that we understand the truth. As long as there are disbelievers there will be believers, where there is doubt there will be no doubt and as long as there is debate there is hope.

Good must vs. evil as evil must vs. Good, this was set in place long before the man we call Jesus walked this earth. We can feel the struggle and see the battle this we can not ignore. The proof does not have to be written down somewhere are documented word for word it is evident in our ever day lives, it is as clear as looking in the mirror, JUST LOOK AT OUR WORLD man has predicted the end ever since the beginning so who knows when that time is coming but surely it don’t take much smarts to see something is going wrong, are is it perhaps going as planned.

The roads that we are on regardless if you are a believer or a non believer in (Jesus) is the same road, it has the same destination the end of this life as we know it. I have enjoyed the life that I have lived and still enjoy living my life but I know that death awaits me as it does all of us and the old saying that death makes us all equal, no rich man, no poor man, just a dead man. But what I have read (yes in the Bible)
there is hope for a better life one without the struggle one without the battle one that death itself can not steal, is this such a bad thing to believe in are is it just to good of a thing to believe in?

nrj

Jan 8th, 2006, 7:20 AM

Not much has changed since his death, we still stumble through life thinking that we know the truth or better yet that we understand the truth. You just had to start your post with plain conjecture, didn't you?

But ok, please, tell me wht the real truth is.

Good must vs. evil as evil must vs. Good, this was set in place long before the man we call Jesus walked this earth. We can feel the struggle and see the battle this we can not ignore. Could you give me some examples of pure goodness vs. pure evil throughout the world? All conflicts has two parts thinking they're doing the right thing. Such as Iraq where the US thinks they're doing right and the Iraqis think they're doing right for defending themselves.

Who's right and who's wrong boils down to subjectivity.
The proof does not have to be written down somewhere are documented word for word it is evident in our ever day lives, it is as clear as looking in the mirror, JUST LOOK AT OUR WORLD man has predicted the end ever since the beginning so who knows when that time is coming but surely it don’t take much smarts to see something is going wrong, are is it perhaps going as planned. This is just getting more and more conjectural by the symbol. Where is the signs of good vs. evil? I don't recall I've heard that the Earth just has two armies: one good and one evil.

The roads that we are on regardless if you are a believer or a non believer in (Jesus) is the same road, it has the same destination the end of this life as we know it. I have enjoyed the life that I have lived and still enjoy living my life but I know that death awaits me as it does all of us and the old saying that death makes us all equal, no rich man, no poor man, just a dead man. But what I have read (yes in the Bible)
there is hope for a better life one without the struggle one without the battle one that death itself can not steal, is this such a bad thing to believe in are is it just to good of a thing to believe in? Believe whatever you want. But if you're bringing claims it's fact, bring proof. That's the way of science: claim, proof, claim, proof, claim, proof... It's the way it works.

I have no problem against hearing what you people believe. None at all. But if you want me and the rest of none believers to accept it then bring proof.

New Creature

Jan 8th, 2006, 9:34 AM

[QUOTE=nanite1018]The best theory mankind has for explaining the physical laws of the universe is M-theory. M-theory is formulated in 11-dimensions. Physicists think that many, perhaps an infinite number, of universes exist and that ours is only seperated from them by a very short distance through another dimension.

DO you not understand that M-theory is also an alternative to the big bang. And it is with out a doubt the best argument for God in general. With M-theory it makes way more since (the whole God thing). Heaven and hell being a different demension. How God can be Omnipotent and Omnipresent in a dimension that our naked eyes can’t see. i.e. magnetism cannot be seeing by the human eye yet it is what it is. I think I said this before and yes it is symantics, but this word was used before the word symantic was invented and defined. Universe simply means spoken word. i.e. God spoke Let the be light,

2 entries found for universe.
u·ni·verse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yn-vûrs)
n.
All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.
The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things.
The human race.
The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place.
Logic. See universe of discourse.
Statistics. See population.

Another : Religious cosmology
Main articles: Religious cosmology, and [[{{{2}}}]], and [[{{{3}}}]], and [[{{{4}}}]], and [[{{{5}}}]]
Many world religions have origins beliefs that explain the beginnings of the Universe and life. Often these are derived from scriptural teachings and held to be part of the faith's dogma, but in some cases these are also extended through the use of philosophical and metaphysical arguments (e.g. argument for the existence of God). In the vast majority of origin beliefs, the Universe was created by a direct act of a god or gods who are also responsible for the creation of man. As a conscious creation, the Universe is usually assumed to be endowed by its creator with some purpose or design, aspects of which are often used to frame man's role in the world and his relationship with God. In many cases, religious cosmologies also foretell the end of the Universe, either through another divine act or as part of the original design.

Both Christianity and Judaism accept creation according to Genesis, although the Roman Catholic Church recognizes evolutionary debates, as long as God is recognized as the driving force behind Evolution. See also Biblical cosmology and Tzimtzum.
Kalam cosmological argument in Islam's Kalam.
Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism believe that the Universe passes through endless cycles of creation and destruction, each cycle lasting for trillions of years (e.g. 331 trillion years, or the life-span of Brahma, according to Hinduism), and each cycle with sub-cycles of local creation and destruction (e.g. 4.32 billion years, or a day of Brahma, according to Hinduism). The Vedic (Hindu) view of the world sees one true divine principle self-projecting as the divine word, 'birthing' the cosmos that we know from the monistic Hiranyagarbha or Golden Womb.
Many religions accept the findings of physical cosmology, in particular the big bang, and some, such as the Roman Catholic Church, have embraced it as suggesting a philosophical first cause. Others have tried to use the methodology of science to advocate for their own religious cosmology, as in intelligent design or creationist cosmologies.

Philosopher, you can be either a dangerous foe or a valuable ally. I can’t make it out yet. None the less you have wisdom and would much rather hear your opinion then think you are straddling the fence. You said you once were a Christian, and you left it all. In my little pea brain logic it is almost like say I used to be black and now I'm not. (Don’t jump my ass this is not the same but to me it is similar. And before someone says I’m stupid because you can’t change your skin tone, look at MJ)

May I ask one more question and wish for a true answer from anyone, why if a person/persons tries to better themselves or their lives in particular. Not wanting or trying to force a beliefe on someone, only to share in their happiness and joy (which I have not found yet but know ti is within my grasp) why do we try and shut them down? Let them grow and find true meaning on their own? Maybe they will come to the conclusion that they are wrong but I am sure they they/we dont need a helping hand in out lifes journey. If I spent the rest of my life trying to be a good boy. How is this effecting you or anyone that looks down on me?

New Creature

Jan 8th, 2006, 9:54 AM

Go outside on a clear night and look into the heavens. Take a deap breath and tell me this is all an accident. If you can live with that then more power to you. Some of us just cannot except it. Lets not hate one another simply because we believe different things. Lets not mock each other. Just share.

I got drunk the other night, Got into fight (with myself and a mirror) My reflection lost the fight but my hand it trahsed ;). Went to a strip club and shot my pistol in the parking lot. Is this a Christian??? I dont know, I know God is real. This is however why I need help. And no shrink in the world can help me thrpugh this but in my mind I know one who can. No its not darwin.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 8th, 2006, 1:18 PM

Philosopher, you can be either a dangerous foe or a valuable ally. I can’t make it out yet. None the less you have wisdom and would much rather hear your opinion then think you are straddling the fence.

Well... you might actually think I am straddling the fence. :D I do believe there is a god, but I'm pretty neutral as to what that god is or how it thinks. I try to be a good person, because one way or another, we're all in this together. But I don't know if my desire to help others is going to be rewarded, or even respected.

You said you once were a Christian, and you left it all. In my little pea brain logic it is almost like say I used to be black and now I'm not.

... In a way, I guess you're right. Christianity was a major part of my identity before I left the church, and I had to change a lot when I decided to leave. (Still am, really. Sometimes I feel like I'm being shoved forward by that part of my life, and I'm just scrambling to keep my feet.) Perhaps that's not what you meant, but if it was then it rings true.

This is however why I need help. And no shrink in the world can help me thrpugh this but in my mind I know one who can.

I mean no offense by this, but if you're having problems with anger, perhaps you should talk to a shrink. Which is not to say you shouldn't pray on this, but God helps those who help themselves, and talking to a shrink might help you figure out why you're so angry all the time - which would help you focus your God-given will and deal with it. Just a friendly suggestion.

New Creature

Jan 8th, 2006, 2:17 PM

Once again I hear a caring and wisdom filled post. I do see a head wrench, a veterans appointed one. I haven’t been totally honest with her as I don’t want to be in a rubber room. I think people lose their liberties if they confide in government appointed mental health practitioners.

But, it is a step in the right direction so perhaps I will. I just don’t want any more pills from those clowns. Anyways I guess I can say thanks. You have the potential to help others with your wisdom and it'd be a shame to misuse it.

To tell the truth it is the ones most opposed to Christianity that I find have the gift that can do more damage or good for the cause. Theres a lot of smart people here and it sucks that they are the ones that wont give our Father a chance.

Sammy56

Jan 9th, 2006, 4:48 AM

Orginally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
Christianity was a major part of my identity before I left the church, and I had to change a lot when I decided to leave.
I know how you feel on that one Philosopher. When I decided to leave the Christian church it did feel like for awhile I had lost my identity. To this day I will still become defensive of Christianity if I hear someone speaking about it badly because they have been misinformed.

nanite1018

Jan 10th, 2006, 6:32 PM

Since i have posted last, i have reconsidered my opinion. I am now nuetral. In the words of the great Carl Sagan:"Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence." If God really wanted us to know his existence, he would leave us something that cannot be mistaken, such as something in the Bible that is directly related to advanced physics, something the people of ancient Isreal could not possibly have known. Or yell down in the form of a great booming voice from the sky. That doesn't happen. But i'll keep looking. For now, i don't believe in the traditional God. Might it be possible, yes. Is it likely? In my opinion no. But if someone can show me evidence that cannot possibly be explained without resorting to saying it was just a fluke of quantum theory (i.e. the Earth suddenly jumps to the other side of it's orbit.) then i will be a believer. I guess you could say i believe in the God of Reason. And i think that man can become infinitely better than it is. "Thou shallt not kill." is great. I agree. If only everyone did. I do have a sense of right and wrong, it just doesn't come from god. It comes from the power of the human mind. I have faith in what humanity can achieve. I realise that we will never be gods. I realise that man is flawed. But man can improve, can get better. But only if we all come to our senses and stop killing each other over what we think happens after we die. Let's just try to make the world better, improve humanity just a bit before we die. If only for the sheer need to survive in a harsh universe. I think man can achieve great things on his own. If only everyone else thought so. I hope this is helpful. From Revelations (miniseries): "There is room in science for anything, even God. If only he would show himself." I sincerely hope that man will come to his senses and stop killing people for there beliefs, stop being stupid, and grow up.

I think there is extraterrestrial intelligent life out there. I think if we ever stand a chance of meeting them, we need to shape up a little. Because right now, they might think us worth the trouble of trying to save. Let's prove them wrong. Let's make Heaven on Earth, spread across the solar system, and venture out into the stars. It is what is best for everyone.

"Too low they build, they who build beneath the stars."

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai

Jan 11th, 2006, 7:50 PM

Go outside on a clear night and look into the heavens. Take a deap breath and tell me this is all an accident.
Funny that you should say that, NC, because I look at the sky and I see blue from refracted sunlight and I see clouds of water. I see no evidence of God at all and I don't understand why people NEED a God to believe in. But hey, to each his own. The problem with the way that you look at things ( ie- the formation of the universe and the theory of evolution ) is that you fail to take into account the VAST amounts of time that are involved. Go outside on the next clear night and look at the stars and the moon and ask yourself, "Could this have developed over the course of 12 BILLION years?" That's BILLION, NC. Yes, it's definitely possible, especially considering that the stars and planets are just simple balls of gases and rock. You have to think BIG...

You said you once were a Christian, and you left it all. In my little pea brain logic it is almost like say I used to be black and now I'm not.
Just imagine that there is a particular aspect of youself, NC, that not only is a BIG part of who you are, but essentially defines much of who you are. Imagine that this particular aspect of yourself is inherent and a fundamental part of you and CANNOT be changed in any way. Also realize that this particular aspect of you is harmless to yourself and to others and that, in all other aspects of your life, you are essentially a good person. Now imagine that the organization that you have completely devoted your religious beliefs to for you ENTIRE life suddenly yanks the carpet out from under you and coldly banishes you from their organization. And not only do they forbid you to practice their religious beliefs, but they suddenly HATE you utterly and completely simply because of this unchangeable aspect of who you fundamentally are as a person. This is SO wrong on SO many levels which we won't get into. So essentially, yes, PhilFoel used to be black, but now he's not. I'd say he's kind of grey judging from his posts...

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 11th, 2006, 8:02 PM

Damn! My hero! :D

But seriously, since we're on this issue - I should point out that my leaving the church wasn't really based on my homosexuality. (That was what was being discussed, yes?) It had some indirect effect on my decision, since they both happened at the same time and it's only inevitable two things that big would have some reaction to one another, but I was fully willing to continue as a somewhat unorthodox believer. (Actually, I already was pretty unorthodox, but that's another story entirely.) No one cares, I know, but I wanted to make sure the record's straight.

New Creature

Jan 11th, 2006, 8:50 PM

You forsake God because of man? Sexual sin is sexual sin period. I lust, I am an unfaithful Husband and then some. I understand and respect that you may think your preference is not wrong, likewise give me the same respect or should I say opinion.

God sees sin as sin with no variation or degree (My view) if you asked me if I think a homosexual will ever make it to heaven. I would undoubtedly say yes. So will prostitutes and fornicators, adulterers and the likes. Murders, thieves, you get my point. Christ didn’t come to save the just for none is just.

*However there was a point in my life when I would have considered myself a "gay basher" This I know is wrong but then I couldn’t see it. It is equivalent as saying I was a lie basher, or drunk basher...

This will be awkward from this point on as I didn’t know your stance. I also am not prepared to deal with such a circumstance. But know this, I no longer hate gays. I no longer (try) to hate anyone for anything. In Christ there is always hope and salvation. It was for US he came, we sinners, we fallen.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 11th, 2006, 10:02 PM

I'm guessing you didn't read my last post. I didn't "forsake God because of man". Otherwise, fine.

Hyzenthlay

Jan 22nd, 2006, 12:56 AM

God! God! God!
What sort of omnipotent, all-loving deity allows it's followers to call it GOD?
"Hey, whats up? Just call me GOD!" Please.
Don't get me wrong I believe in the thing that ought to be called God, as well as a number of lesser entities. The entity that you commonly refer to as GOD is merely one of these lesser entities that saw a weakness in the human spirit of the time, and did it's best to exploit it. As with all those in power, your "God" is what it says it is merely by the virtue of none being able to currently oppose or contradict it. Remember, Yahweh (the ancient Israelite name for It) sent a number of large human armies to slaughter the followers of the other entities of the time, leaving few human remnants of their faiths... hence few to contradict. Thus, Yahweh, GOD, etc. was able to pretty much say as it wished about itself.

The actual GOD, the thing that created the universe is certainly real, but it is so alien to us that we and it have nothing to do with one another. We are merely an interesting side-effect of it's work, as are the deities our religions worship under their false identities. Hence, GOD the CREATOR and MASTER ARCHITECT is a real but irrelevant thing.

My main concern is Yahweh... the Great Deceiver.
I must wrap this up, for I am in pain. Why I am in pain has directly to do with why I am making this post... Metaphorically speaking, I recently accomplished something that made your "omnipotent" "God" blink. There was a great wind sent forth from the flutter of It's eyelashes that shattered my body, and, interestingly, a fatal head-wound that I survived without treatment.

Lets just say that Yahweh doesn't like it when Job finds a penny.
It hurts Yahweh's ego...

I will not lie to anybody, least of all myself. I am afraid of Yahweh, because I know what it can do, and have seen it's works, but not TOO afraid.... I have certain protections, proven by my survival of It's wind, among other attacks and misfortunes. I have been chosen to play a petty role in the Apocalypse.... Inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, I am sure, but from the perspective of my own life, of absolute consequence.

Don't believe everything Yahweh tells you about the end times. Don't assume that Moloch, Asherah, Baal, and all the others were as annihilated as Yahweh claims. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" What other gods, OH Monotheistic One? Is there something you are not telling your people?

OH All-Loving One, why do you allow pedophiles and factory farms to exist?
Why are those that you claim to be created in your images so vile and vicious, if you are indeed without flaw and so perfect?

Why did you fail so miserably to kill me, and why did you feel so threatened by me as to try? WHAT ARE WE NOT BEING TOLD?

Beware of God, my fellow humans.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 22nd, 2006, 8:51 AM

Hyzenthlay, some friendly advice. If you want people to take you seriously on this forum, you might try not to jump head-first into the huge, I-must-be-off-my-meds revelations. Also, try not to speak so dramatically. Otherwise... well... welcome to the forums, I suppose.

Sabazi

Jan 22nd, 2006, 12:39 PM

Yeah....

Welcome to Armageddon Online?

New Creature

Jan 22nd, 2006, 1:10 PM

Beware of God, my fellow humans.

The most profund thing to me is that when certian people have life changing revelations i.e. I am God, or I am the Christ, or now its I am the Anti-Christ, The first thing they do is hop on the computer and reveal it here on a forum.

I am sorry to tell you that your just another ingredient in lifes jambalaya.

Hyzenthlay

Jan 22nd, 2006, 10:52 PM

What makes you think that I have any interest at this time in being taken seriously? I am young and in good health, and I have valid reasons to believe that I still have enough time left to be taken seriously in my own good time. I certainly wont do that here, in a public forum, where members of the CIA, CSIS, RCMP, FBI, UN, CDC, NSA, and who knows what other agencies almost certainly sift through on a regular basis as a part of their Standard Operating Procedures. As well, this forum logs my IP address, PLUS I have a link to my e-mail account as part of my sign-up data.

So don't be so sure I have any interest at all in being taken seriously. REALLY! You insult my intelligence by saying such things!

As for being too dramatic, is that a problem for you? Have you read any other posts but mine? Have you forgotten what website we are posting at? I hope you don't represent the opinion of the majority. In the event that you do, what are you all? Cattle? Afraid of saying anything of any real commitment about anything? Government slaves? Jealous of the belief I have in my own delusions? Resentful of me for having achieved the escape that you yearn for?

And if I have had a life changing experience brought unto me by God, would it not be wrong of me to keep the knowledge to myself? Does not Jesus (yetch) Himself say to shout loudly the miracles of His Father?

Hypocrites and children ye are!
But I am grateful for you. I am, in the end, only human, and to have the world full of people incapable of functioning at above your level will surely make it an easy win for me. I may point out your flaws and shortcomings with uncanny accuracy and apparent contempt, but I am ever-grateful for your flaws, for they will be the vehicle of my own victory and salvation.

Philosopher Foelhe

Jan 22nd, 2006, 11:12 PM

I certainly wont do that here, in a public forum, where members of the CIA, CSIS, RCMP, FBI, UN, CDC, NSA, and who knows what other agencies almost certainly sift through on a regular basis as a part of their Standard Operating Procedures.

So, basically, you're exposing yourself to those forces for... no damn reason. Gotcha.

So don't be so sure I have any interest at all in being taken seriously. REALLY! You insult my intelligence by saying such things!

Then why are you wasting our time? What, exactly, is your agenda here?

As for being too dramatic, is that a problem for you? Have you read any other posts but mine? Have you forgotten what website we are posting at? I hope you don't represent the opinion of the majority.

*eyeroll* First of all, it's not a problem for ME, no. I'm just telling you that if you want to make people listen to you, this is exactly the wrong way to do it.

Secondly, I'm not complaining because what you say sounds bizarre and unlikely. I'm complaining because you come in, ranting like a fool and making it hard to believe anything you say. It's not what you're saying, it's how you say it.

And third, yes, I am aware of how many people in this forum post in a jittery, ADHD fashion, like yourself. And you know what? I rarely listen to those people, either. In fact, most of those people are mocked throughout the forum. Take that into account, please.

And if I have had a life changing experience brought unto me by God, would it not be wrong of me to keep the knowledge to myself? Does not Jesus (yetch) Himself say to shout loudly the miracles of His Father?

You have to realize you are talking to someone who can see spirits, and has said as such on this very forum. No, you don't have to keep the whole thing hidden away like a dirty secret, but there's a right way and a wrong way to bringing this up. This here is the wrong way. After all, if you say something in such a manner that it makes you sound like a lunatic, how is it any different than not saying anything at all?

But I am grateful for you. I am, in the end, only human, and to have the world full of people incapable of functioning at above your level will surely make it an easy win for me. I may point out your flaws and shortcomings with uncanny accuracy and apparent contempt, but I am ever-grateful for your flaws, for they will be the vehicle of my own victory and salvation.

You completely misunderstood my intentions in my post. You were rash and jumped to conclusions, and you were tactless. If any of us are to survive the maelstrom, we can't just take advantage of the flaws of others, but must improve on the flaws within ourselves.