The Death Penalty, Schwarzenegger and Court TV movie

[tflon]

On January 19th of this year Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger allowed the
first death sentence to be served in three years, and the first under
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. That is almost copied straight from a
news site (because honestly if I hadn’t, there’s no way I’d have been
able to spell Arnie’s name!)

Anyway, I recently caught an ad for a movie on Court TV called The
Exonerated. It’s based on true stories of several people who spent
years on death row for crimes they didn’t commit. The original version
was a play which inspired my interest in the subject of the death
penalty. I specifically remember one guy who spent something like 20
years on death row before finally being cleared.

Now before someone jumps all over me: I’m not saying that the guy who
was just executed in California was innocent. But does anyone think
it’s acceptable that even one innocent person could be executed? I
think it’s about time this country joins the rest of the civilized
world and adopts a more humane approach. For those of you still on the
fence on this issue, I’d check out this movie, because if it’s anything
like the play the personal stories will astound you. I think it airs on
January 27 (but check courttv.com just in case I’m wrong). And if you
have thoughts on this issue, I’d like to hear them.

[angel]

Sentencing one innocent person to death is just as wrong as Scott Peterson killing his wife and kid. If the system failed with that innocent person how many other mistakes must there be? How many people are sitting in jail because of withheld evidence? The more skilled lawyer was able to suppress the very evidence that could prove his/her innocence. Or even worse the people who get off because of the suppressed evidence.
I agree with you tflon, I think we should improve our judicial system before we continue to impose the death penalty. Yes there are those who say it's the best system in world blah blah blah but it needs improvement.

[Red Shift]

I agree that unless you are 100% sure a person comited a crime, they shouldn't recieve the death penalty
That said, if you are sure they have comited the offence, by all means kill them, just a shame a leathal injection costs around $80 due to the ingredients.
Im from england, theres no death penalty here, but if there was a vote for yes or no, my tick would be in the yes box.

Many people argue that things like unusual amounts of stress and other factors, including the fact that us mamals used to kill each other for survival of the fitest, but i believe that we humans have far evolved the survival of the fitest and that anyone who will kill people due to stress or some other factor shouldn't be here anyway.

Locking them up for life is pointless, it costs a lot of money and the inmates get relitively good lives.

If they are proven 100% guilty, remove them, they are not welcome in our civilised society.

[DontBeAfraid]

That said, if you are sure they have comited the offence,

You can never be 100 percent sure of something like that unless you were the one doing/not doing the crime.

[Red Shift]

ok maybe 100% wasn't quite right but they can be 99.9% sure, which is a hell of a lot better than some of the trials that have had people executed

though then again there are certain ways of being 100% sure, having all the facts pinting to someone and having video evidence for example, it doesn't often happen quite like that, though it proves 100% is possible

[angel]

Video as evidence.....think Rodney King!!!!

I don't have solutions for making the American judicial system fail safe but after being on a jury when I lived in NYC I hope that if I ever have to encounter our system as a defendant or victim, I have a sh*t load of money for a good lawyer. On either side you're screwed...

[Keeblergiant]

But does anyone think think
it’s acceptable that even one innocent person could be executed?

No, it's not acceptable. However, it's even more unacceptable for a guilty person not to be executed. Heck, atleast we aren't the USSR...they used to take guilty people out back right after a trial and shoot them in the head.

[DontBeAfraid]

So you are saying that its more acceptable to kill an innocent person than to let a guilty person live?

[substand]

But does anyone think
it’s acceptable that even one innocent person could be executed?

I'm of the thought that the state should not execute innocent people.

[DontBeAfraid]

Then you are with me in the position that there should be no death penalty.

[substand]

Then you are with me in the position that there should be no death penalty.

absolutely.

[Red Shift]

Being from texas yourself, have you ever known anyone who was tried for crimes that warrant the death penalty?

[substand]

Being from texas yourself, have you ever known anyone who was tried for crimes that warrant the death penalty?


Personally? Nah, I don't typically hand around those types. =)

[Red Shift]

haha i was thinking maybe wrongly accused or something, but point taken =)

[dutchie]

I am "dead" against the death penalty.


Partly because someone innocent might be killed (when you're 99,9% sure, it means that one in every thousand convicted persons is killed innocently.);
I do not think anyone has the right to take a person's life. This is as much true for the criminal as it is for the government. I understand a government having the responsibility to protect its citizens, but that does not mean they have to KILL prisoners;
The death penalty is not a penalty at all. The penalty lies in a person waiting for a period of sometimes decades for his death. This penalty is far more cruel than the actual killing itself. Just imagine having to wait 15 years for a final decision... That is so horribly cruel, it's sickening. It's medieval. It's barbaric torture in it's purest form, because it kills a person from within.
The death penalty does not combat crime. In fact, crime rates haven't gone down in countries with the death penalty at all. The death penalty is not a deterrent, because crime is not penalty related at all. Crime is more related to social status and upbringing than to anything else.


We have a big mouth about the human rights situation in Turkey. Ridiculous. We should in stead point a finger to the USA, a role model for civilization...
Bah.

[2cool4stats]

I'm of the thought that the state should not execute innocent people.

I agree.

In fact I will expand on that point. False patriotism and the death penalty are very similar. One of these similarities is leadership over morality. It's like some wars you see. Innocent civilians will always die in wars. Even if leaders know it's part of the game they consciously make that decision and inevitably people will follow. That also points to the direction of soldiers. Not much of a choice these kids have now do they? They're innocent as well. Innocent kids being sent to war - being sent to die. But then again some wars are fought in the name of "justice". Just like the death penalty is carried out in the name of "justice". "Justice" for the innocent. False patriotism and the death penalty are one and the same. They're both hypocritical.

[Red Shift]

Of course, there are always guys like this "The man who wants to be executed " (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4181705.stm)

[substand]

The death penalty does not combat crime. In fact, crime rates haven't gone down in countries with the death penalty at all. The death penalty is not a deterrent, because crime is not penalty related at all. Crime is more related to social status and upbringing than to anything else.

I'm thinking it might be more for the victims' survivors than to prevent crime. So they get some closure and revenge.

[substand]

In fact I will expand on that point. False patriotism and the death penalty are very similar. One of these similarities is leadership over morality. It's like some wars you see. Innocent civilians will always die in wars. Even if leaders know it's part of the game they consciously make that decision and inevitably people will follow. That also points to the direction of soldiers. Not much of a choice these kids have now do they? They're innocent as well. Innocent kids being sent to war - being sent to die. But then again some wars are fought in the name of "justice". Just like the death penalty is carried out in the name of "justice". "Justice" for the innocent. False patriotism and the death penalty are one and the same. They're both hypocritical.

If any of you have seen the movie, Billy Madison... you remember near the end, when Billy was competing with Eric, and he gave the speech? Then remember the moderator's comment. That's what that post made me think of.

If you're not familiar with the movie, you can find the quote I'm thinking of here (http://www.garnersclassics.com/qbilly.htm). Its the very first one.

[dutchie]

I'm thinking it might be more for the victims' survivors than to prevent crime. So they get some closure and revenge.
The whole judicial system in any country is based on revenge. But just how much do you want? We in Holland think the death penalty is barbaric and medieval. When you take a life in revenge you're not much better than the criminal that did the crime. Closure is not achieved by killing a person, it's a process that takes place in the mind of the ones left behind.

[substand]

The whole judicial system in any country is based on revenge. But just how much do you want? We in Holland think the death penalty is barbaric and medieval. When you take a life in revenge you're not much better than the criminal that did the crime. Closure is not achieved by killing a person, it's a process that takes place in the mind of the ones left behind.

I don't think its barbaric at all, even though I'd like to get rid of it. I can't say for sure how I'd feel if someone raped and killed, say, my 5 yr old daughter. But I'm thinking there is a distinct possibility of feeling like "i'm gonna fucking kill you" towards the guy who did it. And there may even be a good chance I'd do it myself. I'm almost sure I wouldn't be thinking about the morality of the death penalty, and whether or not I could live with myself if the perpetrator died at the hands of the state.




I don't think its barbaric at all,

i should recharacterize that. It can be barbaric, and it can be not barbaric. I think it depends on how it is used (ie, what methods to carry out the sentance), how much of an appeals process there is, and how hard it is to get convicted in the first place. So I should say I dont think the system in the US is barbaric, whereas the system in place in WW2 germany would be barbaric.

[dutchie]

Now you're doing precisely that, which you do not like when others do it: taking a general argument out of context by placing a personal hypothetic situation before it. It's not about some sicko murdering your 5 year old kid, it's about something completely different. I thought I had made that clear enough and I think you're insulting your own intelligence by bringing up an example like that.

Sorry for the belated reaction, BTW. I've been away for some time.

[Rynotek]

From Amnesty International

In the past five years, the United States has executed 13 juvenile offenders. Eight of these executions took place in the state of Texas. The rest of the world combined carried out five such executions. The United States accounts for four of the last five known juvenile offender executions in the last two years.


http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/juveniles.html

GO TEAM USA

[substand]

Now you're doing precisely that, which you do not like when others do it: taking a general argument out of context by placing a personal hypothetic situation before it. It's not about some sicko murdering your 5 year old kid, it's about something completely different. I thought I had made that clear enough and I think you're insulting your own intelligence by bringing up an example like that.

I'm not using that as an argument in favor of the death penalty... just meant to illustrate that I don't know for sure how I'd feel, but that I think I would feel like having the bastard killed... sort of an empathy with some people who would want the bastard killed for closure.


Sorry for the belated reaction, BTW. I've been away for some time.

Glad you are back!

[dutchie]

...sort of an empathy with some people who would want the bastard killed for closure.

That is my point. Killing the bastard doesn't bring closure, closure is the end of a process that is going on in your mind. Killing someone is just NOT DONE. It's an act of barbarism. Either way you twist it around, it's still medieval barbarism. The murderer is a medieval barbaric bastard too, but do you really want to lower yourself to his level?!? Make that government policy?
(I was saying this in a retorical sort of way - since you're against the death penalty anyway.. you are against it, are you? Because IMO you're either for or against - not somewhere in the middle...)

[MacRasta]

That is my point. Killing the bastard doesn't bring closure, closure is the end of a process that is going on in your mind. Killing someone is just NOT DONE. It's an act of barbarism. Either way you twist it around, it's still medieval barbarism. The murderer is a medieval barbaric bastard too, but do you really want to lower yourself to his level?!? Make that government policy?
(I was saying this in a retorical sort of way - since you're against the death penalty anyway.. you are against it, are you? Because IMO you're either for or against - not somewhere in the middle...)

I don't look at it like that, I think of it as weeding out the bad gene, like RedShift's point. But I'd take it a bit further : hang the funker in front of everyone, yes, medieval style... That'll get the bad genes whiped out pretty fast, as for the others...They'll think more than twice before funking up.

But of course, I know this is not possible. It's very difficult to put a penalty of any kind on any one who breaks the "law" in any way.

So what I'm saying is that I principaly can't be for the death penalty because the risk of killing innocent people (who don't have these bad genes) is much, much too high. If we'd be 100% sure......bring on the stake!

MacVlad