4th dimension

[terminator420]

some people think that the 4th dimension is time, which i think is bs, and others think that its time and we are in the 4th dimension..

i dont see how people can say that a man made measurment of how long things take and shit can be a dimension! it isnt something physically clicking away in the background!!

what do u guys think?

[BigPheces]

I'm not so sure about that... our codification of time is man made but the fact that things change from one point to the next is a fact plain and simple. There has to be some measurement to describe what happened from point A to point B... so whether it's called time and broken down into our 24 hour day, or some other term and measurement for Earths revolution or the sun, what we call time is NOT A theory.

Whether we can call time a dimension to itself is another question, as as far as I know, time does not have matter OR energy, making it more of a variable than a dimension on its own. Does that make sense?

[Keeblergiant]

i dont see how people can say that a man made measurment of how long things take and shit can be a dimension! it isnt something physically clicking away in the background!!

Well, according to GR time is the fourth dimension...and GR is the most accurate theory of gravitation we have. Anyways, what makes time anymore "man made" than our three physical dimensions? After all, it only seems logical that time would be a dimension, as we can describe an object with regards to it's length, width, height, and the certain time frame it's in. After all, nothing in the universe is static.

[terminator420]

so basically theres no such thing as a 4th dimensional being, its just some shit few people choose to beleive, i mean, i know nothing here is a definite, but i thought there was much more behind why people think theres "other" dimensions.

[Zyztem]

Measuring time as a "universal" standard is almost an arbitrary thing. Suppose there is a creature/thing/whatever on another planet, but their "day" takes 36 of our hours. Since earth runs on 24 hours for constancy in rotation in relation to a day by day measurement, their "hour" would actually be an hour and a half in our reckoning.
Measuring time is similar to measuring temperature, in that there isn't really a "cold," it's simply that there's less heat.
Point of reference is makes all the difference. By the same token, what we believe to be the fourth dimension may be another civilization's 2nd, fifth or 12th. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if enough people accept a thing as being true, then for all intents and purposes, (at least theirs), it is true.

[Keeblergiant]

so basically theres no such thing as a 4th dimensional being, its just some shit few people choose to beleive, i mean, i know nothing here is a definite, but i thought there was much more behind why people think theres "other" dimensions.

Not quite...different conjectures nowadays rely on a varying amount of dimensions, such as 11 physical dimensions or 26 physical dimensions...however, they are conjectures...as opposed to the General theory of Relativity which states that the 4th (or zeroth, if you want to go by metric tensor subscripts) dimension is time.


Measuring time is similar to measuring temperature, in that there isn't really a "cold," it's simply that there's less heat.

Or, you could say that measuring time is similar to measuring distances.

[lazserus]

some people think that the 4th dimension is time, which i think is bs, and others think that its time and we are in the 4th dimension..
Try 99% of scientists believe time is the 4th dimension. It's not some wacky side theory, but well accepted and every experiment supports it more. The idea of dimensions are specifically there for measurement, not for tangibility.


i dont see how people can say that a man made measurment of how long things take and shit can be a dimension! it isnt something physically clicking away in the background!!
I don't mean offense, but this is merely ignorance. Measurement is a mathematical tool, but it applies to every day life. Even when you look at something you measure. With out knowing math, you can look at the size of an egg and determine it can't fit into the hole the size of a pencil eraser. You size up you situation. It's a primitive form of measurement. When you travel over country for days, is that arbitrary? You travel miles/kilometers and experience time. You can't touch up or down, yet they still exist.

Time is measure in GR in a dimension in it's own because it is not related to mass, density, etc. However, mass is relative and alters time, while time reverses the roles. They're independant components of the universe that can't exist alone.


Whether we can call time a dimension to itself is another question, as as far as I know, time does not have matter OR energy, making it more of a variable than a dimension on its own.
Time is relative to the observer, stated in SR (Special Relativity). There is no constant of time (Newtonian), while each observer measures his/her own time. However, the paradox in that theory is that time is not JUST on observable arbitrary aspect of the universe, but part of the machine. Which is why Einstein created GR. His theories on GR were purely formulatic at the time, but we've proved through observation consistantly over the past 80 years.

Saying time is nothing more than a "man-made measurement" is shallow. You can't touch the three dimensions, but you recognize they exist. Yes, measurement is man-made, but is a tool for understanding. Language is man-made, for communication.

You seem to argu hollow symantics as opposed to concept.

[Havoc Angel]

I myself have a little problem with time being a dimension following up our three dimensional space. It has something to do with the ability to travel withing a dimension. We can do this in out three dimensional space. Theoretically it is also possible in 2D and 1D. But i have serious doubts as being travelling in time is really possible at least travelling into the past. You see, every 'piece' of matter and every bit of energy is at any given moment 'in use' by something. Like our bodies are made up of matter which has been a plant, another animal or a breath of air in the past. Now if i would put this body back in time the same matter would exist twice at the same time. Once in your body and twice as what the matter has been before it became part of your body. This would lead to a paradox whereas at one moment in time matter and energy becomes missing and at another time it creates a surplus of matter/energy of the same identity. Travel into the future might be possible though, heck, we're doing it all the time.
I do not know if this problem has already been discussed by the science community, i am not in too deep with this matter as you might have already recognized. Maybe one of you people can clarify things for me. Thanks.

[dcookcan]

If you are having problems with dimensions, then I would recommend a course in multivariable calculus and differential equations. Until then, you should control your tongue, since it is making you sound young and foolish.

[Keeblergiant]

We can do this in out three dimensional space. Theoretically it is also possible in 2D and 1D. But i have serious doubts as being travelling in time is really possible at least travelling into the past.

Time only travels forwards, just as our physical dimensions do. Think about it for a second...you can't walk a negative distance, just as you can't travel through a negative amount of time (traveling backwards in time). Everything goes forwards.


If you are having problems with dimensions, then I would recommend a course in multivariable calculus and differential equations. Until then, you should control your tongue, since it is making you sound young and foolish.

Multivariate calculus and differential equations (I'm assuming your talking about PDEs and not regular DEs here, because if you weren't you'd sound just as foolish you claim Havoc Angel to be) are not going to help Havoc Angel anymore than basic geometry will. Why do you think MC and DEs would help him here? If anything he might want to crank out an ol' tensor calc. book and try and learn to GR, although even then that wouldn't help him at all with the philosophical questions he's asking. Fool.

[dcookcan]

I'm assuming your talking about PDEs and not regular DEs here, because if you weren't you'd sound just as foolish you claim Havoc Angel to be

The post was directed at terminator420, not havoc angel.


Fool.

Asshole

[Keeblergiant]

The post was directed at terminator420, not havoc angel.

It applies just the same.


Asshole

Haha, thanks. :headbang:

[Zyztem]

...


Or, you could say that measuring time is similar to measuring distances.


Very true. Take a set distance and move halfway. Then move half the remaining distance. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's almost a philosophical thing, finding infiniteness in a known quantity.

[lazserus]

It has something to do with the ability to travel withing a dimension.
We all travel through time - forward. Time moves in one direction and we constantly travel it. Thus, logically, we travel through time, just like we do the 3 spatial demensions. I think a big difference is being able to look around your room and observe 3 spatial demensions. It's quick and easy. That's simplistic. Time as a demension is not so simple, but it exists all the same. If all you need is "travel" to prove to you, then know we constantly travel forward in time. And yes, we physically move through it as well.

[Havoc Angel]

Hmmm...let me think about that a bit 'aloud'. If time is a dimension it would mean that it exists in its full length already. Like within our three dimensions a place does not pop up simply because we go there and disappear when we leave. That would mean that the path of time is already set. Past, present and future exist. That would mean as the future already exists we have no influence on it, thus eliminating all free will and choice. This would come along with my theory that there is no chance but only a unknown number of unknown factors of influence that we substitute with probability. Also that would come along with my theory that we have no personal free will as all our decisions are created by our experiences (external influence) and our physical state (based on our DNA, external, and other external influences).

If the future is already predetermined that would also mean that it would be 'theoretically' possible to accurately predict the future when all influencing factors are known. As we are using probability as a substitude for the factors we do not know, based on experienced observation and mathematical principles. So the more influencing factors are know the more accurate the predictions become and the less farther we want to predict into the future the fewer unknown factors are around and the more accurate our predictions become. As with scientific a experiment when it is set up correctly the outcome would be exactly as calculated in theory as all influencing factors of any significance are included in the experiment.

Travelling in time is then impossible because we are part of the (at least) 4 dimension. Simply because a point (x, y, z, t) is not the same as (x, y, z, t-1). The coordinates are fixed and changing them results not in the same point being at a different location but a new point at those coordinates. So all we can do is 'go with the flow' or run along with the graph as the function of time goes. The only thing we can do is influencing the rate with which we go along as einstein theorized with the time dilution effects at high velocities. (at low velocities the time dilution is basically negligible)

Heh, i almost boggles my mind trying to imagine a 4th dimension, i have a easier time imagining parallel planes of existence.
hehe, thing is we do not know of how many dimensions we are actually made up of, we can only grasp the ones we have access to either physically or theoretically. As i am a firm believer in infinity we are somewhere in the Xth dimension and found out that there are a couple more, though i believe that there are actually a infinite amount of infinite dimensions.

Ah, well, that's it, i ran out of thought. I guess it's enough for one post already anyway. :wink:

[Keeblergiant]

If time is a dimension it would mean that it exists in its full length already.

Not necessarily. You're thinking about the physical objects that inhabit the dimension, not the actual dimension itself. If you think about it, the actual physical dimensions do not exist in their full length, ie spacetime (the shape of the physical dimensions, and the time dimension) is constantly changing due to the objects (mass and energy) that inhabit it.


Also that would come along with my theory that we have no personal free will as all our decisions are created by our experiences (external influence) and our physical state (based on our DNA, external, and other external influences).

That's exactly how I see it...however, I don't believe all of time is predetermined.


If the future is already predetermined that would also mean that it would be 'theoretically' possible to accurately predict the future when all influencing factors are known.

Not quite...you're ignoring non-linear quantum dynamics and the effects they can have.


As i am a firm believer in infinity we are somewhere in the Xth dimension and found out that there are a couple more, though i believe that there are actually a infinite amount of infinite dimensions.

That can't be true, because then the gravitational potential would be equal to 0.

[lazserus]

If you think about it, the actual physical dimensions do not exist in their full length, ie spacetime (the shape of the physical dimensions, and the time dimension) is constantly changing due to the objects (mass and energy) that inhabit it.
And to piggy back on this, remember that the universe is expanding, thus spacetime being "created". It's not exactly as simple as that, but going that route at least puts you on the right path.


Heh, i almost boggles my mind trying to imagine a 4th dimension, i have a easier time imagining parallel planes of existence.
Because parallel places are 2-demensional. That's why it's easier to picture. 3 spatial demensions can only really be toyed with outside of Earth. Even the greatest minds can't picture 4-demensional space. It's represented on 2-demensional paper.

[leyprophet]

So let's see if I take a stick with a certain length and depth it wil stay constant. Or could I alter it by taking a axe to it cutting it in 1/2 changing the length. Now if this is possible in a 3 dimensional world then as a 4th dimensional being could't i take my new measurement called time and cut it in 1/2 thus instead of 1 4th dimensional object i have 2 now this also means that as a non linaer being i am not forced onto only 1 timeline but can change or alter a line to better please my 4th dimensional senses. Thus for me I could trave both forward and backward in time and still be bound by cause and effect.

[Keeblergiant]

Time is only one dimension so no matter how you slice up the increments there will still be only one way through it.