To the unbelievers of God

[Bluemoon]

Why is it that you don't believe in God? Now I'm not talking about religion, just God and the Word of God.

If you don't believe the Bible to be true, why is it that the stuff mentioned in the Bible coming out true? Prophecies are being fullfilled.

Not trying to cause any problems, I really want to know.


By the way, I'm new here and this is a very interesting site, I really like it.

[marglarg]

I must admit I have never studied the bible as such ... could you possibly describe some prophecies listed in the Bible that have now come true ?

cheers ... d

btw. I do believe in some form of higher power as I have stated many times on this board ... I just don't believe in what my fellow man is trying to preach unto the world populace. Every religion I know seems to consist of not much more than brainwashing its followers, and the pursuit of power and monetary wealth. If your not part of the group then you are on the outer and will go to hell. Given there are probably a few which don't compromise totally what I've stated but they are few and far between.

I see no forgiveness; I see no tolorance; I see no love for those who may be different.

Pretty grim view isn't it ... but I guess if I had a penny for every war started over religious disaggreements I'd be a very wealthy individual wouldn't I ?

[marglarg]

By the way, I'm new here and this is a very interesting site, I really like it.

How rude of me !! Welcome to the boards .. hope you have lotsa fun. :thumbs:

[Bluemoon]

I must admit I have never studied the bible as such ... could you possibly describe some prophecies listed in the Bible that have now come true ?

cheers ... d

Now I have the information to show that prophecies have come true, but now if I even post it, it probably won't even be looked at. I have a book that list all the details about them, it's called "Evidence that demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Very detailed explanation of the prophecies that have come true. With all the happening in todays world, you can pick up a Bible and correlate it and see what is suppose to happen next. If you have no Biblical knowledge or not wanting to pick up a Bible than my saying that is useless.





btw. I do believe in some form of higher power as I have stated many times on this board ... I just don't believe in what my fellow man is trying to preach unto the world populace.
I don't believe man either, just the Word of God. I don't believe there should be religion, because they have their own guidelines they want to follow.



Every religion I know seems to consist of not much more than brainwashing its followers, and the pursuit of power and monetary wealth. If your not part of the group then you are on the outer and will go to hell. Given there are probably a few which don't compromise totally what I've stated but they are few and far between.
I am not part of that group and I'm not going to hell. The Bible says so. I guess I might be different than the rest on the board.



I see no forgiveness; I see no tolorance; I see no love for those who may be different. How wild. Cause anyone with Jesus in their heart should be forgiving, tolerant to some extent and loving. Now you can't run over us again and again, though. Not me anyways, I can only take so much abuse.


PS. Thank you for the welcome :2thumbs:

[DarkAce]

Now I have the information to show that prophecies have come true, but now if I even post it, it probably won't even be looked at. I have a book that list all the details about them, it's called "Evidence that demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Very detailed explanation of the prophecies that have come true. With all the happening in todays world, you can pick up a Bible and correlate it and see what is suppose to happen next. If you have no Biblical knowledge or not wanting to pick up a Bible than my saying that is useless.


The thing about prophecies are that they're so easily manipulated that people can look into them and see whatever they want to see. If you can provide some examples of bible prophecy coming true, I might go over it with you. Also please tell me you're not mentioning bible code...., if so, goggle or use our search function to bring up or thoughts and opinions on the ridiculous notion of 'bible code'.


I don't believe man either, just the Word of God. I don't believe there should be religion, because they have their own guidelines they want to follow.


If you don't believe in man, how can you claim you believe in the word of God? It's the same man that wrote, pieced together what you call the Bible, and tells you that this IS the Word of God.


I am not part of that group and I'm not going to hell. The Bible says so. I guess I might be different than the rest on the board.


Perhaps. It could say you are in one part or it could say the opposite. The bible does have that contradicting effect. However I was unaware that the bible was an animate object that's capable of speaking. From my recollection it's just words left up to our own interpretations. So you interpret that you're not going to hell, doesn't make it true.


How wild. Cause anyone with Jesus in their heart should be forgiving, tolerant to some extent and loving


Ah, in theory you're correct. However you only need to look at history or even at today and see that's not the case. More or less it can be explained by what they read in the bible and interpret (word of the day) to be true. Or what other people interpreted from the bible and told them it was true, either way people do very non-Christ like things in the name of Christ......I guess it's the parts of the bible that's aren't Jesus related that funks up everything, eh?

[repentantsinner]

Welcome Bluemoon. There are people who had bad experiences with other people who "claimed" to believe and did'nt practice that turned them against God. The church is full of human beings who proobly are not capable of being perfect, nobody is. If somebody looks for reasons to disbelieve they will find them.

[MetalMilitia]

I don't speak out against god, or religion.... cause here in the good ol' USA you can believe whatever you want. I DO have a problem with people going around telling others how they should live their lives - or what to believe.

Why don't I believe?

There's how many religions in the world? 20? 50? 100? 1000?

They all beleive theres is the correct one, and that their 'invisible man' only talks to them. They kill, persecute, maim, and brutalize others that don't listen to them and their invisible man. In fact, I would wager that religion, or belief in religion, has caused the deaths of more people than any other cause.

Take Israel and Palestine. Both of them squatting on the same part of the vast etire earth, because their invisible man... that talks to no one else but them, told them it was their land.

[Keeblergiant]

Why is it that you don't believe in God?

Because it's bullshit. My stance: show me proof or shut up.

[Bluemoon]

Well, let's see, I wanted to know the reasoning and everyone was being so nice until Keebler came.

DarkAce
I don't use bible code. Just the Bible and other references, that help me look up what I need in the Bible. As far as for prophecy, I'm not that knowledgable yet in discussing back and forth on prophecy. I know the other site I belong to have much more knowledgable people there than I. At AHIP (http://www.atomichawk.com/messageboard/)

repentantsinner

Thank you for your warm welcome. It is true many times people run into others that "claim" to believe and scare others because of the actions. They make others believe we are all alike with the same agenda. I have family members that are scared from childhood and it's so sad to see them so lost. But I'm there for them when needed.

MetalMilitia

I don't speak out against god, or religion.... cause here in the good ol' USA you can believe whatever you want. I DO have a problem with people going around telling others how they should live their lives - or what to believe.
I agree, I believe in the freedom of believing what you want to. Even God gave us that option, it is our choice. I just like to hear the others point of view cause many times why they don't believe, doesn't make sense to me.
Take Israel and Palestine. Both of them squatting on the same part of the vast etire earth, because their invisible man... that talks to no one else but them, told them it was their land.
Remember energy is invisible but we still rely on it. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Can you imagine little ol' Israel, so little and on the center stage, always. The Bible tells us of this problem since the beginning. Actually I just read that part not that long ago and I am surprised how long the fight between Palestinians and Jews have been going on. Like I said I'm learning right now and very curious.

And Keeblergiant
Because it's bullshit. My stance: show me proof or shut up.
Obviously you probably ran into people that couldn't show you proof or your just not interested in learning about God. If you want proof, you'll have to search for it. Do you think I say all this stuff for my benefit, not. Dude, it's your life not mine. Again the site I mentioned above has people that can answer many questions, but only you have to decide to take the step.

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, I can't agree with you all anymore about religion. They are so corrupt, yet there growing, pretty scary, but again it mentions all that in the Bible.

But my point of this thread was to get answers from non-believers to try to understand why. And I think I understand. The majority that doesn't believe is because the churches. Boy, one thing, I think yall should always think about is, what if God is true?

[Keeblergiant]

Obviously you probably ran into people that couldn't show you proof or your just not interested in learning about God. If you want proof, you'll have to search for it. Do you think I say all this stuff for my benefit, not. Dude, it's your life not mine. Again the site I mentioned above has people that can answer many questions, but only you have to decide to take the step.

I believed in God for the majority of my (short) life. My grandfather's a minister, and believe me...I've looked for proof. It isn't there.

[Bluemoon]

I believed in God for the majority of my (short) life. My grandfather's a minister, and believe me...I've looked for proof. It isn't there.

You're so AWESOME for being polite now. The proof is there but it depends the type of proof you are looking for. And my mothers a head honcho with the Jehovah Witnesses, doesn't mean she knows anything. I have my grandfather that is a Priest type in a Catholic church, he gives the service many times, doesn't mean he knows anything. Yes, I have many family members in different religions. As you can tell I don't try to force them to believe what I believe cause I want them to find out for themselves, if they choose too. Many times people take things out of context, looking only at one verse. I so disagree with that. You have to take the verses in context and then the true meaning comes out.

[marglarg]

Now I have the information to show that prophecies have come true, but now if I even post it, it probably won't even be looked at. I have a book that list all the details about them, it's called "Evidence that demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Very detailed explanation of the prophecies that have come true. With all the happening in todays world, you can pick up a Bible and correlate it and see what is suppose to happen next. If you have no Biblical knowledge or not wanting to pick up a Bible than my saying that is useless.
Don't get me wrong, I do have a Bible sitting right here next to me at work, I have started reading it but unfortunately I don't have the time to really study it as such. This isn't a hack whatsoever, if you could seriously give me some examples, maybe what part of the Bible they are written in I will check it out. I have a very open mind and am always keen to learn.



I don't believe man either, just the Word of God. I don't believe there should be religion, because they have their own guidelines they want to follow.

IMO, I think there should be a general set of guidelines for everyone. Teaching love, peace, harmony and respect for each other, despite racial / geographical differences. Some might say this exists within current teachings, but my teachings would be the correct one and theirs are all wrong. :grin



I am not part of that group and I'm not going to hell. The Bible says so. I guess I might be different than the rest on the board.

Above you have stated that

"I don't believe man either, just the Word of God. I don't believe there should be religion, because they have their own guidelines they want to follow."

You must ask yourself whos' word of God it is that you believe in ... are you sure it's correct?



How wild. Cause anyone with Jesus in their heart should be forgiving, tolerant to some extent and loving. Now you can't run over us again and again, though. Not me anyways, I can only take so much abuse.

Those statements I made were with respect to religious groups as a whole and their behavior towards each other. I have no doubt there are loving, forgiving and tolerant people with each of those religions, as you are I'm sure.


PS. Thank you for the welcome :2thumbs:
No worries ... there is plenty of interesting stuff round here on AO, as well as some mighty interesting dudes and dudettes, that is for sure :D

[Keeblergiant]

The proof is there but it depends the type of proof you are looking for.

What proof have you found?

[Bluemoon]

Above you have stated that

"I don't believe man either, just the Word of God. I don't believe there should be religion, because they have their own guidelines they want to follow."

You must ask yourself whos' word of God it is that you believe in ... are you sure it's correct?

I know, sometimes I have a tendency to word things wrong. I don't believe what a person tells me, church, priest, etc. But the Bible was inspired by God and I find it to be the truth and I always fall back on that.

IMO, I think there should be a general set of guidelines for everyone. Teaching love, peace, harmony and respect for each other, despite racial / geographical differences. Some might say this exists within current teachings, but my teachings would be the correct one and theirs are all wrong That would be the 10 commandments, but it's so hard to follow that God gave us Jesus. But we should always try to abide by them. If we all followed that we would be a cool world, but again in the New Testament it tells us that we won't have it that way.

As far as for prophecy, let me see.. getting my Bible and book out.. Now remember it's not just one verse, you gotta read the whole thing.
Ezekiel 26:1-21 The city of Tyre was suppose to be destroyed and never to be rebuilt again, fishermen suppose to spread nets over the site and now as we speak they are fishermen living there. Now let's analyze this, can you imagine a city completely destroyed and never being rebuilt. How can someone years and years ago, know that this would still be to this day?

There is more but then this goes into studying more and more prophecy, which thanks to you guys, I think I will do.

[Bluemoon]

What proof have you found?


Again, I'm not sure what kind of proof your looking for? I mean I can't show you God, boom, there he is. Have you ever looked in the Bible and disprove anything in there? I know you mention you go to church, but some churches don't even carry a Bible for people to see. I know the Catholic church doesn't.

[Keeblergiant]

Again, I'm not sure what kind of proof your looking for?

I'm not actually looking for proof. I think it's bull...to me, God is on par with ghosts, aliens, and fairies. Only loons are out there trying to capture fairies. I wanted to know what you see as proof.


I know you mention you go to church, but some churches don't even carry a Bible for people to see. I know the Catholic church doesn't.

I have about 6 bibles on my bookshelf.

[Bluemoon]

I'm not actually looking for proof. I think it's bull...to me, God is on par with ghosts, aliens, and fairies. Only loons are out there trying to capture fairies. I wanted to know what you see as proof.



I have about 6 bibles on my bookshelf.

You wanted to see what I see as proof, so you can counter it. Nah... 6 Bibles huh? Maybe one day you'll decide to read one of them and see for yourself, cause honey, I got nothing I need to prove, it's all in there.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Bluemoon and a very hardy welcome,

Hope you enjoy yourself and learn lots.


Why is it that you don't believe in God? Now I'm not talking about religion, just God and the Word of God.

Having grown up as an 'unbeliever' and found God in the sand one day and started an excavation to uncover Him for all to see, I believe that I now have the ability to answer your question. My premise has always started in answering this question not so much for those that wish to answer the question but for the one asking the question, that every one already believes in God. This comes off sounding very big headed especially to those that will tell you that they do not and if I had not been through the experience that I went through I would say the same thing.

It is a matter of presentation.

The problem arises from not being able to understand God and being told to base understanding on faith and what comes across as total nonsense to those that base the world on logic and reason. Why must one base their understanding on things that seem illogical and be told to have faith. The God that I know and understand can be explained from very logical and understandable terms there is no injustice and there is no haves and have nots we are all equal in the eyes of God. Every piece of the word of God can be explained with clarity and understanding to understand the processes of the past, present and future.

I would never have believed in God based upon the fundamentalist ideas that exist in the world today and yet it is these same individuals that continue to condemn me to this day as being ungodly based upon their understandings of the teachings of Christ. It is this poor example of God fearing people that create the stumbling block for people to be able to understand God.

[Keeblergiant]

You wanted to see what I see as proof, so you can counter it.

HAHAHA.


Nah... 6 Bibles huh? Maybe one day you'll decide to read one of them and see for yourself, cause honey, I got nothing I need to prove, it's all in there.

Yeah, I used to read it alot...one of the main things that sticks out is when God practically kills the entire human population. I guess I just identify with the Humanist manifesto or the Jefferson bible better than the load of crap the bible feeds us. 6 days? Ha.

[Bluemoon]

HAHAHA.



Yeah, I used to read it alot...one of the main things that sticks out is when God practically kills the entire human population. I guess I just identify with the Humanist manifesto or the Jefferson bible better than the load of crap the bible feeds us. 6 days? Ha.

But then again you have to see why he did it. Let's take for example, Bush sending people to Iraq, there is a reason.

Well, maybe one day you'll change your mind, when you do, let's talk ;)

[Keeblergiant]

But then again you have to see why he did it.

I don't really care why he did it. If a parent went out and killed all of their children because they didn't like the way they were behaving, everyone would be mortified. However, when God does it then it's ok. Actually, no it's not.

[Bluemoon]

I believe they ended killing themselves, they knew what they had to do, and didn't do it. Just like you know drugs are no good for you, but you do it anyways, cause you think its good. And you know the consequences, eventually death. Same there.

But then, God sees we cannot live up to his expectations and gave us Jesus to die for our sins. So if we have him in our hearts, we are saved. But of course you don't want to hear that.

[Keeblergiant]

But then, God sees we cannot live up to his expectations and gave us Jesus to die for our sins. So if we have him in our hearts, we are saved. But of course you don't want to hear that.

You make it sound like you're the logical one here. Your whole argument lies on so many unproven assumptions this has become a joke. "But of course you don't want to hear that." Haha, I've heard it many, many times...however, it means nothing if there's no evidence to support it (and no, the bible can't be used to prove the bible. Sorry).

[Brewloc]

Bluemoon, welcome. I'm new here too! (Hello everyone else, I have been busy just trying to read as much as possible to catch up...)

I grew up with christianity, Southern Baptist specifically. Then, some Pentecostal got mixed in. Nuff said.... :yikes:

Anyway, now that I'm 'older,' I have formed my own opinions/thoughts.

We (humans) are the most advanced species on the planet, our decision making and problem solving skills mainly set us apart from the rest here, to keep it simple (adaptation is another big one). So, that being said, we are always trying to 'solve' something.

The earth is flat...no its not anymore, its round. (lets go sail around it)
The moon is a GOD...no its not anymore, its a rock. (lets go land on it)

The amount of beliefs on this planet is a prime example. The thought that any one is correct over the other is another great human trait. Its all faith, un-provable until the proof is meaningless. All is well in 'heaven' until 'your halo is bigger than mine' pops up.

If the christian god is real and I get to meet it, I would try my best to kick it square in the nuts! Sorry, but the thought of some cruel chess playin thing waiting thousand of years while we suffer, for what? To leave the earth and go where? Get my point? (If I meet some other 'god' I'm still at least trying for the nuts, unless of course its a female I guess) :jamn: DOGMA!!

Thoughts?

[Strife]

Sorry, but the thought of some cruel chess playin thing waiting thousand of years while we suffer, for what?

I gotta emphasize this and say that its a very good question. I'm looking foward to an answer on this one. I'm also agnostic, and open to any well written replies, so don't expect me to be hostile on this.

By the way, welcome to the forums Bluemoon and Brewloc.

[Bluemoon]

Hello Bluemoon and a very hardy welcome,

Hope you enjoy yourself and learn lots.



Having grown up as an 'unbeliever' and found God in the sand one day and started an excavation to uncover Him for all to see, I believe that I now have the ability to answer your question. My premise has always started in answering this question not so much for those that wish to answer the question but for the one asking the question, that every one already believes in God. This comes off sounding very big headed especially to those that will tell you that they do not and if I had not been through the experience that I went through I would say the same thing.

It is a matter of presentation.

The problem arises from not being able to understand God and being told to base understanding on faith and what comes across as total nonsense to those that base the world on logic and reason. Why must one base their understanding on things that seem illogical and be told to have faith. The God that I know and understand can be explained from very logical and understandable terms there is no injustice and there is no haves and have nots we are all equal in the eyes of God. Every piece of the word of God can be explained with clarity and understanding to understand the processes of the past, present and future.

I would never have believed in God based upon the fundamentalist ideas that exist in the world today and yet it is these same individuals that continue to condemn me to this day as being ungodly based upon their understandings of the teachings of Christ. It is this poor example of God fearing people that create the stumbling block for people to be able to understand God.


Thank you for the welcome and yes I'm having fun and always learning. You know, I totally forgot about a verse I read, that everyone is born with the knowledge of God and I forgot what passage. I had a discussion with someone about that. But my mind lately has been very forgetful. I guess they can choose to accept him or not.

Thank you again for that warm welcome.

[Bluemoon]

You make it sound like you're the logical one here. Your whole argument lies on so many unproven assumptions this has become a joke. "But of course you don't want to hear that." Haha, I've heard it many, many times...however, it means nothing if there's no evidence to support it (and no, the bible can't be used to prove the bible. Sorry).

Me, sounding logical? Boy thats the first I've heard that. I'm far from it, although it would be cool if I was. I'm not using the Bible to prove the Bible. Did you know that the Bible tells us that the earth is a sphere out in space? How did they know that thousands of years ago? There is more in there than you think. But I shouldn't have to tell you what the Bible says, geez, you have 6 of them right there. So when you want to you can find out for yourself.

[Bluemoon]

Bluemoon, welcome. I'm new here too! (Hello everyone else, I have been busy just trying to read as much as possible to catch up...)

I grew up with christianity, Southern Baptist specifically. Then, some Pentecostal got mixed in. Nuff said.... :yikes:

Anyway, now that I'm 'older,' I have formed my own opinions/thoughts.

We (humans) are the most advanced species on the planet, our decision making and problem solving skills mainly set us apart from the rest here, to keep it simple (adaptation is another big one). So, that being said, we are always trying to 'solve' something.

The earth is flat...no its not anymore, its round. (lets go sail around it)
The moon is a GOD...no its not anymore, its a rock. (lets go land on it)

The amount of beliefs on this planet is a prime example. The thought that any one is correct over the other is another great human trait. Its all faith, un-provable until the proof is meaningless. All is well in 'heaven' until 'your halo is bigger than mine' pops up.

If the christian god is real and I get to meet it, I would try my best to kick it square in the nuts! Sorry, but the thought of some cruel chess playin thing waiting thousand of years while we suffer, for what? To leave the earth and go where? Get my point? (If I meet some other 'god' I'm still at least trying for the nuts, unless of course its a female I guess) :jamn: DOGMA!!

Thoughts? Umm...thinking like that you probably won't get to meet him. You might get to meet his rival though :yikes:

By the way, welcome to you too!!

[Bluemoon]

By the way, welcome to the forums Bluemoon and Brewloc.

Thank you for the welcome Strife!!

[40oz]

There is nothing more refreshing then a fellow believer that can keep a cool head under fire. Wish I could do that! Welcome bluemoon. I tried that earth is round angle once, good point but it fell on deaf ears.

[Bluemoon]

There is nothing more refreshing then a fellow believer that can keep a cool head under fire. Wish I could do that! Welcome bluemoon. I tried that earth is round angle once, good point but it fell on deaf ears.

Thank you 40oz, I really needed to hear that. I really try, sometimes my blood boils but I try to keep it calm, phew, sometimes it can be really hard. I know it will fall on deaf ears, unless someone is really interested in learning. But if they are interested in learning, they don't have to ask me, they should go to the source. I'm nothing, I'm not the person they should be listening to, I'm just a messenger.

And thanks for the welcome. Believers or not they have all been pretty kind to me, except Keebler, he's getting better though, I think.

[dutchie]

Umm...thinking like that you probably won't get to meet him. You might get to meet his rival though :yikes:

By the way, welcome to you too!!
This is EXACTLY what GodsGiftToMankind and I have talking about: every time a person posts something worthwhile to read about his own thoughts on faith, enter the fundy to tell him he will burn in hell. Bah. Disgusting. :Bott:

[dutchie]

Bluemoon, welcome. I'm new here too! (Hello everyone else, I have been busy just trying to read as much as possible to catch up...)

I grew up with christianity, Southern Baptist specifically. Then, some Pentecostal got mixed in. Nuff said.... :yikes:

Anyway, now that I'm 'older,' I have formed my own opinions/thoughts.

We (humans) are the most advanced species on the planet, our decision making and problem solving skills mainly set us apart from the rest here, to keep it simple (adaptation is another big one). So, that being said, we are always trying to 'solve' something.

The earth is flat...no its not anymore, its round. (lets go sail around it)
The moon is a GOD...no its not anymore, its a rock. (lets go land on it)

The amount of beliefs on this planet is a prime example. The thought that any one is correct over the other is another great human trait. Its all faith, un-provable until the proof is meaningless. All is well in 'heaven' until 'your halo is bigger than mine' pops up.

If the christian god is real and I get to meet it, I would try my best to kick it square in the nuts! Sorry, but the thought of some cruel chess playin thing waiting thousand of years while we suffer, for what? To leave the earth and go where? Get my point? (If I meet some other 'god' I'm still at least trying for the nuts, unless of course its a female I guess) :jamn: DOGMA!!

Thoughts?
Welcome, Brewloc!! It's always nice to meet someone that did have a religious upbringing (like myself) and came to a point in life where he or she decided to start thinking. It's a pity you're immediately told to go to hell, but hey, that's the common way for fundies to respond to a personal message that somewhat contradicts their own beliefs.
It's always amusing to see that - when they get their deserved spanking - they just start whining and nagging that everyone's against them, boohoo. Ah, but you'll get used to that soon enough.

Don't be deterred by wishes of damnation by others: if you learn to see through that, you can have a great time here!!

Concerning your POV - I'm with you 100%. Personally I do not believe there is a God to be kicked anywhere - I believe we are made of the eternal and very substance of God itself: Hydrogen, in all of its successive forms AKA stardust...

[repentantsinner]

It's interesting that on this board people who have God forced on them as children become ardent disbelievers while those who find him later in life go out of their way to convince others.

[Brewloc]

Thanks for the welcome Bluemoon, Strife, and Dutchie!

Flaw 1. God and the bible. This assumes that your God and your bible is 'the one.' What about the many faiths that have no mention of the bible or have a book of their own? What about the faiths that build off the bible to make then feel better in the current time they live?

So I will drop the bible part of your question and leave it at God alone.

I do not believe in a God, because now I have to decide which God. If you think that when the time comes you will be in line with all the other believers, you need to go back and study your books more. Many faiths claim they are the one, choose it or loose it. Do you believe that god will sit all these faiths down, they all believe in the 'god(s) theory,' and have a big pow wow. I think many there would be scratching their head wondering why the persecuted their brethren for a faith that turned out to all be the same as the one they were trying to disprove or disassociate themselves from.

For me, the thought of one thing creating everything else is just not conceivable.

Thanks for the conversation.

:bubble:

[Godsgifttomankind]

It's interesting that on this board people who have God forced on them as children become ardent disbelievers while those who find him later in life go out of their way to convince others.

This is the nature of man and god, first is last and last is first.

When you force someone to do something they rebel and when you give someone a gift of love they cherish it with all their heart.

The ones that were forced when they see the true love of God will become even more ardent lovers they just have to have the opportunity to choose for themselves, they are not rejecting God only standing firm to choose of their own freewill and recognize it is the ungodly that force people to believe for God forces no one and will not accept forced compliance. That is why it is freedom first and choice second, the will of God will not become totally apparent until everyone has been given the freedom to choose. There is still much work to be done to achieve global emancipation.

[Brewloc]

It's interesting that on this board people who have God forced on them as children become ardent disbelievers while those who find him later in life go out of their way to convince others.

Myself, I was never forced to do anything. As a child I wanted to goto Sunday school. My parents did not go. I wanted to goto the tabernacle and dance. I also grew up and wanted to read about the 5 pillars of Islam, the Bhagavad-gita, and the 4 noble truths, among many others.

The journey I am walking is an interesting one. What is interesting to me is how one can have so much faith that they will not even allow their brain to process information that may question the faith, enlightening them more.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Brewloc and welcome,


Flaw 1. God and the bible. This assumes that your God and your bible is 'the one.' What about the many faiths that have no mention of the bible or have a book of their own? What about the faiths that build off the bible to make then feel better in the current time they live?

These are all excellent questions and given time we will answer them all.


I do not believe in a God, because now I have to decide which God. If you think that when the time comes you will be in line with all the other believers, you need to go back and study your books more. Many faiths claim they are the one, choose it or loose it. Do you believe that god will sit all these faiths down, they all believe in the 'god(s) theory,' and have a big pow wow. I think many there would be scratching their head wondering why the persecuted their brethren for a faith that turned out to all be the same as the one they were trying to disprove or disassociate themselves from.

I believe in the big pow wow theory!


Enjoy yourself and glean as much as you can.

[playmaker88]

Do you think I say all this stuff for my benefit, not.

???????????

Then for who do you say these things Bluemoon? Are you trying to 'save the souls' of the unbelievers? Are you doing it because the bible tells you to do it? If indeed you do as the bible says doesn't that reserve you a ticket to eternal happiness by your creators side? Wouldn't converting an unbeliever make you feel good? Not for your benefit? No not at all.

Why does the bible promise much for it's attention? It's because humans want rewards for efforts...Written by humans to offer other humans just what they know they'll want/need.

Why does a superbeing require acknowledgement from mere mortals? Just like all of your Gods traits, very human. The reason being that your God and all other previous Gods were created by humans who can't accept that they are just mere animals that are going to die and no longer exist themselves. Adding an important figure like God adds importance to themselves and gives them a reason for their existence as opposed to accepting that they're here by a whole lot of luck.

You ask "what if God does exist?" Well I'm so convinced that it doesn't that I am willing to risk an eternity burning in that place called Hell. Happy reading and good luck with your understanding of the correlation between that book written by a man and that big book written by...MAN.

[playmaker88]

It's interesting that on this board people who have God forced on them as children become ardent disbelievers while those who find him later in life go out of their way to convince others.

Mortality sinking in RS?

[repentantsinner]

You could say that playmaker88 i am 40 yrs old, midlife crisis and all. Just going over my life and there seem to be a lot of "coincidences" that have really had impact. I was looking for a reason and found God.

[playmaker88]

This is the nature of man and god, first is last and last is first.

When you force someone to do something they rebel and when you give someone a gift of love they cherish it with all their heart.


So really, you people that preach are trying to turn us away from God. More for yourselves eh? (reply: God has enough love for everyone...yawn)

[Godsgifttomankind]

So really, you people that preach are trying to turn us away from God. More for yourselves eh? (reply: God has enough love for everyone...yawn)

I believe that it is the message that turns people away, telling people that they are going to hell and must follow blindly without questioning or understanding is a lot different then sharing a message based upon love, respect, understanding and investigation towards wisdom. When you try to force someone to eat something no matter how good it is they are going to reject it, while some thing offered with love and generosity will be tasted and will only be accepted if it is palatable by the receiver. There is a big difference and no one at any point here is forcing you to accept anything that they offer, it is a buffet were you can take what you want and leave the rest.

You obviously have a problem with religion and I sympathize with you, for I too have a problem with religion and that is why I am here because too many people for too long have been poor examples of what it is that God wants and it is time to set the matter straight. As a representative of God, I let my actions speak the way that God has taught me, I may not be the greatest example but at least I am here as a representative and standing firm on love and respect.

[playmaker88]

The ones that were forced when they see the true love of God will become even more ardent lovers they just have to have the opportunity to choose for themselves, they are not rejecting God only standing firm to choose of their own freewill and recognize it is the ungodly that force people to believe for God forces no one and will not accept forced compliance. That is why it is freedom first and choice second, the will of God will not become totally apparent until everyone has been given the freedom to choose. There is still much work to be done to achieve global emancipation.

Exodus 20 22-24

The LORD commanded Moses to say to the Israelites: "you have seen how I, the LORD have spoken to you from Heaven. Do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gold to be worshipped in addition to me. Make an altar of earth for me, and on it sacrifice your sheep and your cattle as offerings to be completely burnt and as fellowship-offerings. In every place that I set aside for you to worship me I will come to you and bless you."

Exodus 20 1-5

God spoke and these were his words: "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you were slaves. Worship no god but me. Do not make for yourselves images of anything in heaven or on earth or in the water under the earth. Do not bow down to any idol or worship it, because I am the LORD your God and I tolerate no rivals. I bring punishment on those who hate me and on their descendents down to the third and fourth generations."


CHOICE???/FREEWILL???

[playmaker88]

You obviously have a problem with religion and I sympathize with you, for I too have a problem with religion and that is why I am here because too many people for too long have been poor examples of what it is that God wants and it is time to set the matter straight. As a representative of God, I let my actions speak the way that God has taught me, I may not be the greatest example but at least I am here as a representative and standing firm on love and respect.

Sorry David , I hadn't finished and you beat me to the second part of my point. The only problem I have with your religion is that you talk in fact, not in belief. I respect and love plenty of people, I don't need your God or religion to do so and I certainly don't need your sympathy because my life is extremely fulfilling.

I could patronise you by saying that I sympathise for you in the fact that you need something that can't be proved to help you through the realities of yourself, life and death and all that entails but that would be a lie. I don't feel sorry for you at all.

Funny how God is failing in his message to some believers but hits the nail straight on the head with you. You must indeed be special, chosen even...You talk as if it has appeared before you on a number of occasions for a private conflab or maybe it's your level of intelligence that helps you understand the message much clearer than everyone else. I couldn't possibly have sympathy for someone so great.

[Bluemoon]

This is EXACTLY what GodsGiftToMankind and I have talking about: every time a person posts something worthwhile to read about his own thoughts on faith, enter the fundy to tell him he will burn in hell. Bah. Disgusting. :Bott:

Um..Dutchie, get over it. I'm not that type of person. I said it because of how he said his post. He seemed to have a sense of humor. That is why I used the shocked face, cause I was being silly. I don't say if you don't believe you go to hell. I have no idea what is in your heart. I can't say, so I will never say someone is going to hell cause I have no clue, only God knows the whole outcome.

[Bluemoon]

???????????

Then for who do you say these things Bluemoon? Are you trying to 'save the souls' of the unbelievers? Are you doing it because the bible tells you to do it? If indeed you do as the bible says doesn't that reserve you a ticket to eternal happiness by your creators side? Wouldn't converting an unbeliever make you feel good? Not for your benefit? No not at all.
Nope not doing it cause the bible tells me so. I'm doing this cause I want to share and that's it. I have joy, peace and understanding in my heart and with that I just wanted to share. Just when when you discover something cool, you want to share with friends. It feels so good that sharing, to an unbeliever, it's uncomprehendable. And yes it feels good to share with others. And what do I gain from it, just someone else with the same joy. It feels good, what can I tell ya. Maybe God made us feel that joy so we can share it. I don't know it all.



Why does the bible promise much for it's attention? It's because humans want rewards for efforts...Written by humans to offer other humans just what they know they'll want/need.

I'm already rewarded regardless.



Why does a superbeing require acknowledgement from mere mortals?
Cause he created us. Like if you were to give birth to your child and they never acknowledged you as a father or mother. That would break my heart.


Just like all of your Gods traits, very human. The reason being that your God and all other previous Gods were created by humans who can't accept that they are just mere animals that are going to die and no longer exist themselves. Adding an important figure like God adds importance to themselves and gives them a reason for their existence as opposed to accepting that they're here by a whole lot of luck.


Can you prove it? Or is this just opinion?


You ask "what if God does exist?" Well I'm so convinced that it doesn't that I am willing to risk an eternity burning in that place called Hell.

Your choice ;)



Happy reading and good luck with your understanding of the correlation between that book written by a man and that big book written by...MAN.
Um.. inspired by God. Only if you have Jesus in your heart can you understand.

[playmaker88]

It feels good, what can I tell ya. Maybe God made us feel that joy so we can share it. I don't know it all.

Yes, I understand, rather like lonely children when they make up imaginary, invisible friends to make themselves feel better.


Cause he created us. Like if you were to give birth to your child and they never acknowledged you as a father or mother. That would break my heart.

So your saying that your superior being has the same feelings as humans? I don't expect my son to worship me. I'm happy when he acknowledges my existence but fair dos, I socially interact with him constantly. I've no desire to drown him or set plagues against him or slay him as a baby 'cos he's my first born(no matter how disobedient he gets).


Can you prove it? Or is this just opinion?

Do you find yourself asking the same question of your beliefs?




Um.. inspired by God. Only if you have Jesus in your heart can you understand.

Oh to believe in the 'beautiful lie'...

[Brewloc]

Can you prove it? Or is this just opinion?

I'm spinning. Is this going somewhere?

Proving faith is an oxymoron I think.

[Bluemoon]

Yes, I understand, rather like lonely children when they make up imaginary, invisible friends to make themselves feel better.
Nope, you don't understand.



So your saying that your superior being has the same feelings as humans? I don't expect my son to worship me. I'm happy when he acknowledges my existence but fair dos, I socially interact with him constantly. I've no desire to drown him or set plagues against him or slay him as a baby 'cos he's my first born(no matter how disobedient he gets).

Nope. I said 'recognized' not 'worship'. Your trying to skew my words to bring it to another direction. Again it is pointless to speak about why he did what he did unless you understand the whole Bible. You can't take a piece of a person and know what they look like. You have to see the whole Bible in whole, not portions. But it's okay if you don't want to believe it, it is your choice.



Do you find yourself asking the same question of your beliefs?

Nope.




Oh to believe in the 'beautiful lie'... Not a lie.

[playmaker88]

Nope. I said 'recognized' not 'worship'. Your trying to skew my words to bring it to another direction. Again it is pointless to speak about why he did what he did unless you understand the whole Bible. You can't take a piece of a person and know what they look like. You have to see the whole Bible in whole, not portions. But it's okay if you don't want to believe it, it is your choice.


Actually you said "acknowledged". I never claimed that you said 'worship' I merely used the term because that is the perception that the bible gives. Did you mention 'plague', 'drowning' and 'death of the first born?' No. I was not directly quoting, I was responding. You were the one using the correlation between your God as a perceived creator and being a human parent, I did not detract from that, I used it, so how that is an attempt to skew your words I don't know? God of the bible does not seek "acknowledgement", God of the bible seeks worship and idolisation.

[Bluemoon]

Actually you said "acknowledged". I never claimed that you said 'worship' I merely used the term because that is the perception that the bible gives. Did you mention 'plague', 'drowning' and 'death of the first born?' No. I was not directly quoting, I was responding. You were the one using the correlation between your God as a perceived creator and being a human parent, I did not detract from that, I used it, so how that is an attempt to skew your words I don't know? God of the bible does not seek "acknowledgement", God of the bible seeks worship and idolisation. Okay, I'm not here to argue, I was simply stating that you had said...oh nevermind...you will argue that point too. Your telling me what the God of the Bible wants?

You know, you are the type of person that will argue any point made regarding the Bible. I'm not here to argue and prove a point, I'm here to learn and understand. And if you would have just said, I don't believe in it just because, that's fine. I wanted to know all opinions, not get attacked. I learn from understanding all types of religions and understandings. From conversations and not arguments, I can try to understand why they believe what they do. And at times I don't understand and that's OK, I move on.

[Edge]

Why is it that you don't believe in God? Now I'm not talking about religion, just God and the Word of God.

I'm at a point where I still believe that the idea of there being no god or creator is true. However I acknowledge that this can never be proved conclusively by any of us in any way shape or form (that goes for both sides of the arguement).

As for the "word of god" I have found that over the past 16 or so years of my existance that humans can not be trusted or at least should not be trusted on first glance. I don't buy into evangelicanism nor for that matter the words of the various churches that opperate in the world today. Basically I believe that everything should be able to back itself up if it is to be taken seriously. Which is why I try my best to live my life according to my own moral/ethical standards.


If you don't believe the Bible to be true, why is it that the stuff mentioned in the Bible coming out true? Prophecies are being fullfilled.

You've heard of Nostradamus right?

[playmaker88]

Okay, I'm not here to argue, I was simply stating that you had said...oh nevermind...you will argue that point too. Your telling me what the God of the Bible wants?

You know, you are the type of person that will argue any point made regarding the Bible. I'm not here to argue and prove a point, I'm here to learn and understand. And if you would have just said, I don't believe in it just because, that's fine. I wanted to know all opinions, not get attacked. I learn from understanding all types of religions and understandings. From conversations and not arguments, I can try to understand why they believe what they do. And at times I don't understand and that's OK, I move on.

Do I not have the right to argue a point made about the bible? Is the bible above scrutiny?

I am merely giving my view of the bible and how it reads to me. It is not a personal attack, it is a difference of opinion. I have accused you of nothing, merely attempted to answer the questions you posed and give my views, yet you saw fit to accuse me of twisting your words and when I explained that I wasn't, in detail, I get accused of attacking you.

If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions and because I happen to be one of the people in your thread title "unbelievers of God", (that would include me), I saw fit to partake in this conversation. Re-read your initial question, then my responses and then maybe you can quote one of my personal attacks on you instead of just accusing me of such because you don't like my stance on the subject. Maybe the belief that I am personally attacking you is enough. Feel free to quote that.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Edge and thank-you for sharing your comments,


I'm at a point where I still believe that the idea of there being no god or creator is true. However I acknowledge that this can never be proved conclusively by any of us in any way shape or form (that goes for both sides of the arguement).

While I respect your opinion and mean no disrespect, I do believe that we will all be able to prove this argument conclusively and I look to people like Newton and Einstein to give us the answers that we need; individuals that examine all of the evidence that exists and formulate understandings based upon how the world is. This was the gift of Albert Einstein not based upon vast experimentation but upon examination of the raw data and comparing it to our physical existence. Physics was called physical science and it grew from an examination of that which we can perceive with the physical eye to that which can only be understood intellectually but keeping with in the confines of physical examples.


As for the "word of god" I have found that over the past 16 or so years of my existance that humans can not be trusted or at least should not be trusted on first glance. I don't buy into evangelicanism nor for that matter the words of the various churches that opperate in the world today. Basically I believe that everything should be able to back itself up if it is to be taken seriously. Which is why I try my best to live my life according to my own moral/ethical standards.

This is a very admirable quality and I encourage you to hold it close and never let it go. It is important to ask for evidence in all that we do and understand. This is not in any way undermined the strength of faith but faith that is based upon logic and reason and that is what you are talking about when you say I believe. This is a great example of faith, belief in a system that will always provide clear proof, you may not want to admit that the evidence will be forth coming but you definitely believe in the process by which it will be shown. My question to you is where does this moral/ethical standard originate from? Why even try to follow such a standard? Why do we need rules and regulations? What is your motivation to do such things?

You've heard of Nostradamus right?[/QUOTE]

Nostradamus was a Biblical scholar her search the Bible to understand where he was and where things were headed. Everything that he wrote was his explanation of Biblical prophecy. Was he right? In his own way. Did he explain the fullness of Biblical prophecy? Not even close, he was shown only small glimpses of future events because he was only shown what he wanted to see and the same can be said of all of us, we are all only shown as much as we are willing to examine. People will come along through out our lifetimes with goods to sell and we will choose which ones to look at and which ones to buy. By my thinking we should examine everyone for their fit and appeal and reject those that are clearly shown not to fit. It is the ones that we do not examine that in most cases would have given us the greatest understanding.

Keep true and search within for answers that ae seen through out.

[Bluemoon]

Okay, let's look at you answering my question, looks more like you questioning and attacking me. No problem though, I can handle it, I just won't deal with it. Now look at Edge's answer, now that was answering a question. By the way, thank you Edge!


???????????

Then for who do you say these things Bluemoon? Are you trying to 'save the souls' of the unbelievers? Are you doing it because the bible tells you to do it? If indeed you do as the bible says doesn't that reserve you a ticket to eternal happiness by your creators side? Wouldn't converting an unbeliever make you feel good? Not for your benefit? No not at all.

Why does the bible promise much for it's attention? It's because humans want rewards for efforts...Written by humans to offer other humans just what they know they'll want/need.

Why does a superbeing require acknowledgement from mere mortals? Just like all of your Gods traits, very human. The reason being that your God and all other previous Gods were created by humans who can't accept that they are just mere animals that are going to die and no longer exist themselves. Adding an important figure like God adds importance to themselves and gives them a reason for their existence as opposed to accepting that they're here by a whole lot of luck.

You ask "what if God does exist?" Well I'm so convinced that it doesn't that I am willing to risk an eternity burning in that place called Hell. Happy reading and good luck with your understanding of the correlation between that book written by a man and that big book written by...MAN.

[playmaker88]

Okay, let's look at you answering my question, looks more like you questioning and attacking me. No problem though, I can handle it, I just won't deal with it. Now look at Edge's answer, now that was answering a question. By the way, thank you Edge!

Questioning a statement you made? Yes. Attacking? Only in your eyes and I'm not going to apologise because of your sensitivities.

I did read Edge's well balanced response and didn't feel the need to respond because

a) I mostly concur
b) I've written similar here previously

I thought the Nostradamus mention was particularly relevant to your original thread leading question but I tend not to pat everyone on the back for making a good post, it doesn't necessarily contribute to the flow and just clogs it up (as do petty little squabbles like the one I am involved with presently).

[Bluemoon]

Questioning a statement you made? Yes. Attacking? Only in your eyes and I'm not going to apologise because of your sensitivities.


Never asked for your apologies...anyway..moving on...it was cool chatting with ya..

[Edge]

My question to you is where does this moral/ethical standard originate from? Why even try to follow such a standard? Why do we need rules and regulations? What is your motivation to do such things?

My ethical/moral system of belief comes from a number of sources such as those of my parents and the society that I live in - this in itself is unavoidable as it is only natural for us to react and adapt to our surroundings both in a physical and mental sense. Society has shaped my views by for the most part indirectly as there are alot of problems which from my point of view have arisen from it. Other areas that have infulenced me are history, music and literature as these are all conduits for the passing on of opinions or view points.

I do my best to follow the standards that I set because I believe that ultimately it reflects upon my character - which at the end of the day is something I wish to look upon with some amount of pride. This in itself is motivation to do so, another is that I believe that honour and dignity our some of our most valuable pocessions.

Rules and regulations are a bit of a two edge sword because whilst they protect the individual from unsavoury events giving a sense of security. They also contribute to the institutionalisation of us by taking away certain responsibillities and to an extent expectations. As with all things there are negative and postitive aspects these are only a few of each in relation to leglisation and I am sure that everyone can think of at least one more point to add to this.


Nostradamus was a Biblical scholar who searched the Bible to understand where he was and where things were headed. Everything that he wrote was his explanation of Biblical prophecy. Was he right? In his own way. Did he explain the fullness of Biblical prophecy? Not even close, he was shown only small glimpses of future events because he was only shown what he wanted to see and the same can be said of all of us, we are all only shown as much as we are willing to examine. People will come along through out our lifetimes with goods to sell and we will choose which ones to look at and which ones to buy. By my thinking we should examine everyone for their fit and appeal and reject those that are clearly shown not to fit. It is the ones that we do not examine that in most cases would have given us the greatest understanding.

Keep true and search within for answers that are seen through out.

The point with Nostrodamus is that what he wrote was so vague and open to inturpretation.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Edge and thank-you for your reply,

My ethical/moral system of belief comes from a number of sources such as those of my parents and the society that I live in - this in itself is unavoidable as it is only natural for us to react and adapt to our surroundings both in a physical and mental sense. Society has shaped my views by for the most part indirectly as there are alot of problems which from my point of view have arisen from it. Other areas that have infulenced me are history, music and literature as these are all conduits for the passing on of opinions or view points.

I truly appreciate your honesty and sharing on these points and wish in no ways to belittle the answers that you have give as they are clear and well stated, what I was looking for was something just a little more deeper from within yourself. there is not doubt that our environment forms us and makes us aware of many things but it is ultimately something from within ourselves that is the basis of our moral/ethical beliefs. The old saying that there is honor among thieves is a good example of this and it is this inner perception that I wish to address. What is the origin of it and why does it exist? Are we able to make greater use of it once we have become aware of it's existence?


I do my best to follow the standards that I set because I believe that ultimately it reflects upon my character - which at the end of the day is something I wish to look upon with some amount of pride. This in itself is motivation to do so, another is that I believe that honour and dignity our some of our most valuable pocessions.

These are great things to hear and I encourage you to keep on this path but I still would like an answer to my question of why bother doing all of this in the first place? Is there some where that you are going with this, an end result; a focal point of achievement? Everything that we do in our lives has a final result, when you start a foundation the end result is a building that will rest on that foundation. What is the building that will rest on the foundation that you have started?


Rules and regulations are a bit of a two edge sword because whilst they protect the individual from unsavoury events giving a sense of security. They also contribute to the institutionalisation of us by taking away certain responsibillities and to an extent expectations. As with all things there are negative and postitive aspects these are only a few of each in relation to leglisation and I am sure that everyone can think of at least one more point to add to this.

Is it not the failure of individuals to live within the parameters of these rules and regulations that has created the need for enforcement for the protection of those that choose to live within the law? It is our choice as a society to live within these parameters and it is also our choice to allow others to choose or force those that do not comply to face punishment for their failure to live so but is not their failure also our failure and thus is it not better to help them to choose rather than forcing them to choose?

The point with Nostradamus is that what he wrote was so vague and open to interpretation.[/QUOTE]

Thank-you point taken.

[Edge]

The simple reply to your first two points is that: First I owe it to myself. Secondly I owe it to others around me and thirdly its a challenge which I choose to meet.

It can be argued that laws are merely guidelines which because not all who break them get caught.

It can also be argued that laws are put in place due to the desire of man to control his surroundings and that of others to have less responsibillity for their own safety as well as actions.

Laws can also be seen as the nasty medicine that a child needs to take in order to stay healthy. This applies to the majority of cultures and governments across the world today. It also ties in with the idea of the individual being institutionalised by society to a point that some cannot function without it or for that matter within it.