Human Devolution or is that Devil ution

[Godsgifttomankind]

A new book for religious scientists

If you thought that Creationism was out to lunch and Evolution lacked some integrity then this just might put a little light on a buried treasure. A new twist with ancient roots Vedic Evolution.

Michael Cremo's book Human Devolution is going to turn both sides of the human beginnings arguement upside down. Is this middle of the road in regards to these two camps or is this just the beginning of understanding the complexity of the existance of man?

I rewrote the title because it FALLS right into my understanding of the devil. From what I have so far read it has an interesting historical perspective on these age old questions.

What is this saying about Science and Religion?

Cremo has a heart for both Science and Religious study.

[armageddononline]

Uh what does it actually say happened?

[DontBeAfraid]

You sound like an advertisement, sorta. This is possibly the least fluent post ive seen from you. Are you asking me what the book is saying? I havent read it. Call me closed minded if you must but i wont waste anymore of my time on creationist theories, they are william nilly.:D Well, i dont know for what reason there was a big bang, but i dont think anybody else has a better guess than i do.

You seem to like the book judging from your post, but your description of it is like something i might find on ebay. I need the meat of it, or at least a nibble.

You think that evolution is the work of the devil? huh? you said you liked science:mad:

Does the book knock religion as a mostly negative force which causes people to devolve?


I have no idea which direction(I seem to have a problem with direction recently;) ) you are going with this post.

[Godsgifttomankind]

DBA, that was a challenge to look at it and see what it has to say. I have only read the introduction from off the net but want to get a copy and read it. Cremo is an adherant to an ancient India belief and a questioning scientist. He puts forth the understanding that Darwinian Scientists have put forth a very questionable argument in regards to the evolution of man and shows that Vedic chronology predates the existance of Homo sapiens near the Tertiary or earlier.

He uses the integration of religious and scientific understanding to form a conclusive and balanced arguement. Science plays a very important role in bringing forth the truth while religion answers the moral and ethical questions. An arguement that ignores or lessens the importance of one side or the other is based on bias opinions. Opinions such as these are detrimental to the well being of all that are involved.

Cremo states that man has not evolved but has devolved going from a state of greatness (Spirit) to a lower state of being. It would be hard to call him a creation scientist because his archeaological evidence proves that man is older than Creationists would have you believe.

The play on words to get Devilution was pointing to my own belief that man has fallen and lives in the Body not in the Spirit and that some people would have you believe that the Devil is at work. The physical body being the Devil and man's devolution to the body.

When Science or Religion is used to control people or ideas that is dangerous. People must be allowed to know and understand based on evidence placed before them, evidence untainted by the desires of any individual or group. Even scientists have desires and that is were a moral and ethical code comes into play. What if people did what ever they wanted, when ever they wanted? Things need to have order and reason and compassion. We must do things based on Love and Respect not just based on Laws. Where Love, Respect and laws do not exist there is chaos.

Chemo has a fresh new approach and that is not to say it is entirely correct but it does start to bring things into balance.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Science and Religion are two very dynamic forces. The world of science has revealed to mankind some very amazing and wonderful things. It has also created some great catastrophic events. Science needs to work within constraints and guidelines in order to best provide for humanity. Religion is just such a force but not in it's present form. Religion requires knowledge and understanding so that things are done based on reason not radical misunderstanding and contempt. What I am talking about is doing things based on love and respect while at the same time using logic and reason. People do so many things out of tradition and don't even understand what started the tradition. Science very clearly shows us that things evolve or change and that when something is not serving a purpose it is done away with. We need to clearly examine and understand why we do what we do and eliminate anything that is not preforming a useful function. These things slow us down or hold us back from being who we can be. It is possible for us all to be transformed from crawling on our bellies to flying high. An excellent example of this is the caterpillar and it's change into a butterfly. The world of nature gives us many examples like this that have deep spiritual meaning. "Listen , I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye."

[SP50]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Listen , I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye." [/quote]
This truly is a mystery to many, It is speaking of the rapture, when in the twinkling of an eye, a trump will sound and we all ( believers) will be changed and shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is not the second coming for He will meet us in the air. In the second coming ( later) He will actually come back down to the earth.
We will be saved from the wrath of GOD to come.
THis is a mystery that no scientist or unsaved man can understant.

[Alan]

I have been busy for the last couple weeks and my computer has been down until a few days ago...

Godsgift,

A personal question, I notive you say something along the lines that we all have about the same God, or spiritual force, know, I have noticed you dont talk of it directly, or I should say you havnt said exacly what you believe in. Can you explain what (Yes I read your proofs and things on the existance of God) you believe in and what you base your life on? I have a friend who is a bit like you, that is just a thought though, they base their lives on neutrality, doing whatever they want as long as it does hurt someone, driking, drugs, everything is open as long as it causes no direct harm.

Can you explain your own thoughts to what you base your moral absolutes on?

Also in doing this I am in no way trying to find a way to judge you, I am just curious as to what you think of everything because you say there is a lot in the bible that plain man does not understand, and that some churches lie and blind people from some mysterious truth that many cannot see.

What do you see that others cannot?

Thanks,


Alan

[Godsgifttomankind]

Dear Alan,

You ask a very important question, one that deserves an open and honest answer. Sandy has already made mention in part to her understanding of my beliefs but I will clarify. I am part of a world wide group known as Bahai's, we have a very steadfast moral and ethical code where compliance is based on knowledge, understanding and foremost Love of God. Bahai means a follower of the Glory and comes from the name of the Prophet-Founder of the Bahai Faith whose title was Baha'u'llah which means the Glory of God in both Arabic and Persian. The Bahai community is a very diverse and radiant group.

The teachings of Baha'u'llah include:

The oneness of God
The oneness of Mankind
The oneness of Religion
Equality of Women and Men
The harmony of Science and Religion
Elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty.
Independent investigation of the Truth.

Being someone that was raised in the study of science and attracked by the godliness of a people, the warmth, generosity and Love. These are a people that walked the walk and talked the talk, a group that lived their lives not for their own personal gain but to improve the conditions for humanity as a whole.

For years I have worked diligently to live my life according to the example set forth, about six months ago I decided to start attending different churches to get first hand knowledge of the teachings of the different churches. This proved to be a huge spiritual reward for me as I received a new knowledge and appreciation for the Bible. What was revealed in regards to prophecy and prophetic requirements caused me to search earnestly to understand as much as I could. The insight into current events, the collaboration of information and recognising the cronology of events both present and future. I was like a kid in a candy store after closing time. Having everything that a spiritual heart could desire but not an ear to be found. People have been seeing the signs for two centuries now but refuse to uncork their ears.

[mickydoolittle]

ohhh whooooooo heh heh .....

[Godsgifttomankind]

Scientific minds to the front pls

[mickydoolittle]

Yes...satan is responsible for all the bad in life where as god is responsible for all the good. See it all adds up and works out kids...it's like having the ultimate pet with none of the mes to clean up later.

[Godsgifttomankind]

I recognize God has authority over everything and thus is responsible for everything.

I prefer to use more scientific terminology to explain Satan then would the majority of my contemporaries. There is a force at work but it is better explained through biology and chemistry then religious tradition.

[mickydoolittle]

Originally posted by Godsgifttomankind
I prefer to use more scientific terminology to explain Satan then would the majority of my contemporaries. There is a force at work but it is better explained through biology and chemistry then religious tradition.
I am GREATLY intrigued by that post. Please explain more if you would not mind. I will also add that you have the patience of Job. (applause):happy:

[Godsgifttomankind]

Thanks Micky,

I recognize your intelligence and your desire for the truth but I am going to try and stay away from too much scientific terminology. Keeping it as simplistic as possible so others will not get bogged down by terminology.

The Battle between God and Satan for the soul of man I like to explain like this.

There are two forces at work one is spiritual(God) and the the other is physical (Satan). God is connected to our minds and acts thusly while our body is the physical. Our Bodies are controlled by many different electrical, chemical and biological interactions. The body is designed in such a way that many different systems come into play and inter react with each other. The demand of one organ puts into action a series of events that then call on other organs to respond. Most of these reactions are independent of any conscious control by the mind and thus preform their duties without interference from the mind. I will use the dog as an example, as an instinctual creature the Dog does what it was trained to do and does not stop part way to reason "is this what I want to be doing". When it smells a female in heat it does what the chemical and biological interactions in it's body tell it to do. So what if it is in the middle of the street and there are humans watching. Humans on the other hand can smell the release of endorphins and become aroused but can choose to react or suppress these demands of the body. The body is capable of putting some extreme demands on the mind and it is up to the mind to choose to fulfill those demands or to succumb to the wants of the body. In the past it was not possible to explain the power or the forces that were at work in the human body and thus one name was given to this complex and intricate system. That name was Satan

Sensory
Adrenal
Thalamus
Aposmatic
Navigation

Time goes by and a force related to individual body control is suddenly in control of the world and is blamed for every bad thing that is going on in the world. The truth is that Satan is in control because we allow our bodies to control us and have allowed Satan to take the reigns of each one of us. This is just a simple Mind over Matter problem and can be dealt with in this manner.

Sacrifice the Flesh and live in the Mind.

Clearly it was S.A.T.A.N. that molested all those boys and the priests just allowed it to happen.

[Edge]

:rolleye:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Time goes by and a force related to individual body control is suddenly in control of the world and is blamed for every bad thing that is going on in the world. The truth is that Satan is in control because we allow our bodies to control us and have allowed Satan to take the reigns of each one of us. This is just a simple Mind over Matter problem and can be dealt with in this manner.

Sacrifice the Flesh and live in the Mind.

This conjers up scary thoughts of peoples genitals being cut out or commiting suicide ala Guyana.

OR

A GIGANTIC penis ruling the world.

Since when did a beautiful, natural act become so evil? Why is it that people just dont understand that it is what they DECIDE or CHOOSE to do, instead of blaming body parts, that makes them act? Sexual stimuli does not make bad. People with nefarious ideas who try to force them upon others, now thats bad!

My boobs and manhole DO NOT THINK FOR ME.

Its this simple, quit blaming body parts for being weak in mind and hold YOURSELF, not your genitals accountable for your actions.

Now I think I will DECIDE to let my mind control my actions and sacrifice myself by being impaled by some hot, young stud muffin.

A little twist on the lyrics of "Bobby McGee"...

~Satan's just another word for, nothing left to chose~

[mickydoolittle]

Originally posted by Defiant Noquisi
...manhole...
:lol: :rollin: :lol:

That's great! :Llol:

[Godsgifttomankind]

Thank-you DN,

You nicely finished my argument but I would hope that you understood my point that you would not let any dick to have his way with you.

A dog goes after everything and has no self control while we can exercise our self control.

Sexual Intercourse is a wonderful and fulfilling part of an Intimate relationship while the act of sex for sex alone is meaningless and empty.

Psychological evaluation of sexual deviants show that in the course of their deviation the acts tend to become more and more horrific in order to maintain the heightened levels of arousal. This is due to the decrease in stimulus that the body feels, thus in order for the mind to feel the same pleasure the body has to be more highly stimulated.

The same is true of drug addiction.

The post however was not about whether sex was good or bad but about the control of the body over the mind and the science of that control. It is that science that is explained by the use of the term Satan. Were people have relinquished responsibility and now blame everything on Satan.

[mickydoolittle]

Originally posted by Godsgifttomankind
Sexual Intercourse is a wonderful and fulfilling part of an Intimate relationship while the act of sex for sex alone is meaningless and empty.
Well, you're wrong about that. You clearly have never fuct. That is sex for the sake of sex and is quite rewarding in and of it self. My advice, go and get some just to get some. You'll understand. :smokin:

[Godsgifttomankind]

My dear Son Micky,


That is sex for the sake of sex and is quite rewarding in and of it self. My advice, go and get some just to get some. You'll understand.

I prefer to enjoy the Love of my spouse since previously I did do this with a very opinionated woman and speak from experience.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Originally posted by Godsgifttomankind
Thank-you DN,

You nicely finished my argument but I would hope that you understood my point that you would not let any dick to have his way with you.

If your talking "dick", Ive never had one do that unless the owner it was attached to was like that. Body parts dont think like I said before. However, now if youre talking "Dick", well now that would depend on what he looked like and of course, his potential in the sack.


A dog goes after everything and has no self control while we can exercise our self control.

Thats a no shi**er!!! My dog tries humping one of my cats ALL the time!


Sexual Intercourse is a wonderful and fulfilling part of an Intimate relationship while the act of sex for sex alone is meaningless and empty.

I have never had meaningless sex. I meant to do it and chose to do it and it meant everything to me, all two hours of it. I have never felt empty unless the poor guy got short changed.


Were people have relinquished responsibility and now blame everything on Satan.

Just curious, does the Bahai faith blame themselves or Satan for being one of the biggest theives of American Indian spirituality?

[mickydoolittle]

Originally posted by Godsgifttomankind
I prefer to enjoy the Love of my spouse since previously I did do this with a very opinionated woman and speak from experience.
I have not the first damn clue what you are implying with the above. What, the opinionated woman wanted it her way all the time...you never got to be on top?


Originally posted by Defiant Noquisi
Just curious, does the Bahai faith blame themselves or Satan for being one of the biggest theives of American Indian spirituality?
ooohhhhhh! Busted....! So...someone else sees the connection. About time round here....

[Godsgifttomankind]

My dear SON Micky,


I have not the first damn clue what you are implying with the above. What, the opinionated woman wanted it her way all the time...you never got to be on top?

I believe that what I was trying to imply was that I could be the father of a Bastard Son. You figure out the rest.

I was mistaken though because any son of mine would have been quick enough to catch that one the first time!

[mickydoolittle]

ok...GGTM....

First: I would never have come from your seed, I am MUCH too intelligent to have come from genes such as yours. For you to even attempt at taking credit for my superiority is despicable. Not surprising, because you want to leave behind some sort of legacy, but it isn’t to be with me.

Second: Refer to me as "son" again and there will be no end to my taunts and ridicule of your obvious disturbed mental incapacities. I will see to it that my fingers are worn down to veritable nubs in my posted taunts and grammatical hijinx about you. 'I' would never be 'your' son. If you have a bastard, that's your problem. There are plenty of services easily located on the net that could assist you in tracking down your lack of indiscretion. This should be your legacy, that you had the bollocks to resolve any question about your being a father with some floozy.

Third: You can believe what you may, but reality is always better than believing what others tell you to believe. When you awaken to it (reality) and realize that you have been following instead of leading your own existence, rejoice, because the world is big big place and there are lots of things to enjoy about it--the very things you'll never get to enjoy while following. . .like you finding out about your bastard for starters.

Fourth: I advise you to seek some serious professional health due to your admittance that the voices are advising you on life as it occurs. This is indicative of an imminent 'snap' that could/will harm those around you. You don't want 'that', do you?

oh...BTW, there is no doubt about my blood linkage to my father. 'You' could never be so lucky as to have ME for a son...bastard or not.

selah

[Godsgifttomankind]

Thank-you Micky for your reply and I can assure you that I do not have a Bastard son out there or that I am hearing dangerous voices in my head. I was however attempting to use a little sarcasm but as you desire am ready to get back to the more serious side of this debate.

I can also say that I recognize and appreciate your detest-ability of anyone that follows blindly what someone else tells them and does not search for the truth themselves. I love people of faith that search diligently to understand how things are evolving around us and more so scientists that yearn to understand the forces that brought our universe into existence but I do not appreciate any one that oppresses the search of others in the name of their truth. That applies to science or religion because none of us, no matter how brilliant we are; know the answer to all the questions.

Just to let you know that it would be an honor to have a son like you. Your uniqueness and passion for the truth are just a few of your most precious attributes.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Originally posted by mickydoolittle
I have not the first damn clue what you are implying with the above. What, the opinionated woman wanted it her way all the time...you never got to be on top?

Somehow "strap-on" comes to mind.



ooohhhhhh! Busted....! So...someone else sees the connection. About time round here....

They do have the dishonorable distinction of being the largest group of culture vultures of our spirituality out there. :mad:

[mickydoolittle]

bootylicious

I'm bumpin' this up for a refresher. :nudge:

[mickydoolittle]

stemming their outflow of a tirade.

Out with it already. You know it's getting harder to resist...tick tick tick tick tick :dead:

[Defiant Noquisi]

Just curious, does the Bahai faith blame themselves or Satan for being one of the biggest theives of American Indian spirituality? Well, I am still awaiting an answer for this question.

[mickydoolittle]

_:rolling:_

[Godsgifttomankind]

Well, I am still awaiting an answer for this question.
My apologies DN but it is difficult for me to answer a question that I do not understand. You make claims that Bahai's are culture vultures and that we steal native spirituality and give no reference as to the topic that you are insisting.
I fail to see how a deep love and admiration of the institution set up by Noah and kept alive by the aboriginal peoples of the world constitutes theft. The knowledge of the Great Creator, connection to the Great Spirit and the teachings of the Seven Grandfathers are not synonymous only to your people but have been reiterated with each appearance and revelation of God. To share and explain all of these traditions and to see their fulfillment is this what you are referencing as theft or are you just angry at the need to evolve and reach a point of greater understanding?

[Skygirl]

I fail to see how a deep love and admiration of the institution set up by Noah and kept alive by the aboriginal peoples of the world constitutes theft.

Noah has no place in my culture. Please explain. By placing YOUR (non-native) beliefs above my own, which was not brought to us by a guy in a boat (we have, historically, had a very negative experience with dudes showing up in boats), is rather ethnocentric...the term cultural genocide comes to mind...


The knowledge of the Great Creator, connection to the Great Spirit and the teachings of the Seven Grandfathers are not synonymous only to your people but have been reiterated with each appearance and revelation of God. To share and explain all of these traditions and to see their fulfillment is this what you are referencing as theft or are you just angry at the need to evolve and reach a point of greater understanding?

Okay, so many Peoples believe in a Creator entity/force. But I have no idea what you mean by Seven Grandfathers. I only have two and sadly both are gone. To me, in the TRADITONAL manner in which I was raised, the appearance and revelation of 'God' is a personal thing. We choose NOT to share our personal exchanges with the general public. When these interactions, ceremonies, beliefs are taken and manipulated by other cultures/religions, it is theft. Your generalization and obvious lack of knowledge that all indigenous peoples do not have the same beliefs is another problem that the indigenous culture has to deal with. We're not all the same. We don't all believe the same thing.

[Defiant Noquisi]

I, like my sister have no clue as to what you mean by "Seven Grandfathers" since we are a woman dominant society. I also do not understand what Noah has to do with us either. Our spirituality was never developed by Noah, we didnt cross over some land bridge and just what tribe would you suggest continued propagating Noah's "institution" so you could follow it now because it sure wasnt the Cherokee OR Iroquois. In fact, I am offended that you would even imply that my Cherokee spirituality would even resemble that of another, even the Iroquois.

Many of your own "doctrines" (I cant think of a better word at this time) are riddled with alleged "Native American" based teachings. Please dont insult me by asking ME to prove your religion has stolen NA beliefs. Your beliefs are full of alleged "Iroquois" teachings whose meanings have been twisted, turned and mixed into some mass that is your beliefs today. The Iroquois saved NOTHING for the Bahai's.

How can you derive alot of beliefs off of our people and then turn right around and act as if your beliefs are superior to ours? If this wasnt true, your people wouldnt be on the rez recruiting ours to your hodge podge of beliefs.

The problem with spirituality thieves is that first, they lump all us Indians together without ever considering that we are all different. We speak different languages, we look different, we have different beliefs. So for you to say that you use and understand philosphies of Native Americans, you really have no clue at all of what you are talking about. In fact, quite a bit of our beliefs are exact OPPOSITES of each other, so for you to "mix it up" is very misleading and deceitful. In certain aspects of spirituality, it could in fact, be dangerous and even deadly.

The second problem is that virtually ALL culture vultures get pieces/parts of various Indian beliefs and think that it is wholly Indian. Well, it is and it isnt. Where you got it from may be, but what it has become and who is using it is not. If you think you can take parts of different religions and make something "new and improved" by mixing it up with something else well then have at it, whatever makes you happy. However, it isnt Indian anymore is it? It cant be because Indians didnt put your religion together, someone outside of Indian culture did. Therefore, it isnt Indian and never will be. Do not offend those of Indian decent who are traditional followers by saying that it is.

Oh, I also want to mention that this isnt Hollywood either so saying that aspects of your religion are "based on Native American beliefs"(based on a true story) is pure WHITEWASH. If it wasnt created by Indians, isnt used by Indians and it isnt taught by Indians, IT ISNT INDIAN.

I also find it interesting that in Bahai teachings it is fundementally believed that christians intruded on our beliefs and denied us our "spirit" yet you people dont see that by going onto reservations and "converting" Indians to your beliefs (just like the christians) you are doing the same thing. Sure, you may have alot of Indians following your beliefs, but that doesnt make your religion anymore Indian freindly than the christians religions are.

[Skygirl]

GGTM-

Please take a look at this-
http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/abs/bsr06/66_buck_messengers.htm

The Baha'i in Indiana offer Native American vision quests. In Maine they offer Native American sweatlodges. Both conducted by caucasains. In Massachusetts the Baha'i exploit Arvol Looking Horse and his teachings, twisting them to their benefit (Arvol is a dear friend of mine. The fact that this happens is very hurtful to him).

I found other sites on the internet where indigenous teachings from the America's are twisted to their benefit. With complete disregard to the Elders that do not wish these teachings to be taken from them and diluted so much that the original intent is gone, what remains is a happy friendly all encompassing picture of the romanticized Indian.

I could say more but I am tired and I also detest doing other peoples homework.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Thank-you for your replies Ladies,

I am truly saddened that you feel that activities by the Bahai's to encourage understanding of your traditions and promote awareness of the role and history of Native culture can be so offensive. The work that is being done in this area is done out of the greatest Love and admiration for your people and my people as well. The underlying purpose of all of this is to create unity and the only way to have unity is for people to understand and respect the people around them. Nationalism, Racism and Isolationism are the three root causes of discord in the world today and if we are going to get past all of this conflict and strife we need to understand and respect the people around us.

While painstaking efforts are being made to foster brotherhood on a global basis, it is still the desire of many to remain isolated and create barriers of distrust between themselves and their neighbours. Mr Buck, who is the author of the paper you quoted, like so many are working to uncover the connection and understanding that links all of us together and attempt to present it so that all peoples can begin to understand our common origin and the oneness of mankind no matter what are language or nation.

The aboriginal history is extremely challenging due to the ancient beginnings and the lack of historical text. There is no doubt in my mind that the traditions that we see today can be traced back to the teachings of Noah and are extremely relavent to understand the plan of the Great Creator. If there is any superiority to any of this it is due solely to the actions of God and not based upon the understanding of one man. All human beings are equal, we all posses different talents and facalties but not one of us is greater than the other. I may have a gift of understanding in one area while you are given a greater talent in another. We are all unique in our make up and understanding but we are all equal in the eyes of God.

We all can allow our egos to make us think we are greater than we actually are but in truth there is no difference and thus it is that when we place ourselves above someone else we are actually belittling ourselves.

I wish to thank-you again for sharing your concerns in this matter and truly desire that something can be done to eliminate any acts that are creating anomisty between your people and my people, for truly your are apart of me and I am a part of you and for the benefit of us and our children we need to bury the hatchet and solve the more pressing problems that exist in the world.

With Love and Respect David.

[Skygirl]

Thank-you for your replies Ladies,

I am truly saddened that you feel that activities by the Bahai's to encourage understanding of your traditions and promote awareness of the role and history of Native culture can be so offensive.

Do you understand why it is offensive? Understanding our traditions is one thing. But using and abusing them is another. Understanding our history means understanding it from our perspective, not the perspective of the domcult.


The work that is being done in this area is done out of the greatest Love and admiration for your people and my people as well. The underlying purpose of all of this is to create unity and the only way to have unity is for people to understand and respect the people around them. Nationalism, Racism and Isolationism are the three root causes of discord in the world today and if we are going to get past all of this conflict and strife we need to understand and respect the people around us.

Love and admiration is admirable but not when it includes manipulation of our beliefs to suit another's purpose. I don't understand your second sentence in the above paragraph. If an individual or group is doing something in the name of unity and to promote respect, one would think it would be done in an acceptable and respectful manner. Otherwise it is perceived as the opposite.


While painstaking efforts are being made to foster brotherhood on a global basis, it is still the desire of many to remain isolated and create barriers of distrust between themselves and their neighbours. Mr Buck, who is the author of the paper you quoted, like so many are working to uncover the connection and understanding that links all of us together and attempt to present it so that all peoples can begin to understand our common origin and the oneness of mankind no matter what are language or nation.

If an individual or group wishes to foster brotherhood one would think that it would not include exploitation,manipulation, bastardization and cultural genocide. One can attempt to understand another's culture without attempting to make it part of their own.


The aboriginal history is extremely challenging due to the ancient beginnings and the lack of historical text. There is no doubt in my mind that the traditions that we see today can be traced back to the teachings of Noah and are extremely relavent to understand the plan of the Great Creator. If there is any superiority to any of this it is due solely to the actions of God and not based upon the understanding of one man. All human beings are equal, we all posses different talents and facalties but not one of us is greater than the other. I may have a gift of understanding in one area while you are given a greater talent in another. We are all unique in our make up and understanding but we are all equal in the eyes of God.

The lack of historical text is due to the fact that we are an oral culture. Our teachings and history are passed down in our respective communities that way. Please provide evidence that Noah has something to do with 'God'. The teachings of my culture make perfect sense to me. They are practical for my people and to our geographical location. When a member of the domcult says differently, that our teachings that we believe to have been part of our culture since our beginnings says differently, that is applying superiority over us.


We all can allow our egos to make us think we are greater than we actually are but in truth there is no difference and thus it is that when we place ourselves above someone else we are actually belittling ourselves.

The above statement can easily be applied to your belief system.


I wish to thank-you again for sharing your concerns in this matter and truly desire that something can be done to eliminate any acts that are creating anomisty between your people and my people, for truly your are apart of me and I am a part of you and for the benefit of us and our children we need to bury the hatchet and solve the more pressing problems that exist in the world.

I appreciate your thanks. Hopefully understanding can come from the fact that there will never be unity so long as one religion/belief system places itself above all others. Unity can never be accomplished when those claiming to desire unity, in their own subtle way, whether it be through manipulation, cultural theft, or what have you, make themselves superior while claiming not to be.


With Love and Respect David.

[Godsgifttomankind]

Do you understand why it is offensive? Understanding our traditions is one thing. But using and abusing them is another. Understanding our history means understanding it from our perspective, not the perspective of the domcult.
Please clarify your reference to 'domcult'

Love and admiration is admirable but not when it includes manipulation of our beliefs to suit another's purpose. I don't understand your second sentence in the above paragraph. If an individual or group is doing something in the name of unity and to promote respect, one would think it would be done in an acceptable and respectful manner. Otherwise it is perceived as the opposite.
Perception is the key word here, if someone is genuine in there reaching out, is that seen as a threat or as a gracious gesture?

If an individual or group wishes to foster brotherhood one would think that it would not include exploitation,manipulation, bastardization and cultural genocide. One can attempt to understand another's culture without attempting to make it part of their own.
You are correct in this matter and I did take offense to the way that Mr. Buck presented his article, for it came out sounding like native culture needed to be asimilated, when in fact it should have been attempting to understand the roots of the relationship and the role that it was assigned by God.
This is a common misconception and creates an image of superiority where there is none.

The lack of historical text is due to the fact that we are an oral culture. Our teachings and history are passed down in our respective communities that way. Please provide evidence that Noah has something to do with 'God'. The teachings of my culture make perfect sense to me. They are practical for my people and to our geographical location. When a member of the domcult says differently, that our teachings that we believe to have been part of our culture since our beginnings says differently, that is applying superiority over us.
I would be more than glad to share with you my understanding of the relationship of the Prophet Noah, which comes from references in the Bible, The Qu'ran, The Baha'i writings and from the oral traditions of diverse groups of Aboriginal peoples from around the world. Your nation may or may not have traditions that reference to Noah but every group that I have encountered thus far does.

I appreciate your thanks. Hopefully understanding can come from the fact that there will never be unity so long as one religion/belief system places itself above all others. Unity can never be accomplished when those claiming to desire unity, in their own subtle way, whether it be through manipulation, cultural theft, or what have you, make themselves superior while claiming not to be.
You are very correct in this matter and it is very important to remember that we are all equal and the one with the superior plan is God.

Thank-you for your reply
David

[Skygirl]

Please clarify your reference to 'domcult'

dominant culture


Perception is the key word here, if someone is genuine in there reaching out, is that seen as a threat or as a gracious gesture?

I suppose it would depend on the circumstances. If the effect of reaching out would lead to a negative effect I would not see it as a gracious gesture but an ignorant one. If the effects were seriously detrimental I would perhaps see it as a threat.


You are correct in this matter and I did take offense to the way that Mr. Buck presented his article, for it came out sounding like native culture needed to be asimilated, when in fact it should have been attempting to understand the roots of the relationship and the role that it was assigned by God.This is a common misconception and creates an image of superiority where there is none.

Agreed.


I would be more than glad to share with you my understanding of the relationship of the Prophet Noah, which comes from references in the Bible, The Qu'ran, The Baha'i writings and from the oral traditions of diverse groups of Aboriginal peoples from around the world. Your nation may or may not have traditions that reference to Noah but every group that I have encountered thus far does.

I know of no reference in my Nation to Noah. We are a matriarchal society so I really don't see how it could be possible. The majority of individuals in our oral history that have any role of importance are female.


You are very correct in this matter and it is very important to remember that we are all equal and the one with the superior plan is God

Thank-you for your reply
David

You're welcome.

Sky

[Godsgifttomankind]

I know of no reference in my Nation to Noah. We are a matriarchal society so I really don't see how it could be possible. The majority of individuals in our oral history that have any role of importance are female.
Does your culture make any references to the number 7?

My brother's wife is also from a matriarchal group and they have under gone many of the same experiences that you have spoken of. This is a worldwide phenomena and has only one solution that I can see and that is for every one to learn Love and Respect.

David.

[Skygirl]

Does your culture make any references to the number 7?

David.

LOTS

Sky

[Defiant Noquisi]

Thank-you for your replies Ladies,

I am truly saddened that you feel that activities by the Bahai's to encourage understanding of your traditions and promote awareness of the role and history of Native culture can be so offensive. If your religion was truly promoting these things, then we would not feel offended. However, your religion does in fact, take aspects of different Amerindian cultures and assimilate it into your own beliefs. This does not promote understanding and awareness and how could it? Your people change it and mold it into something else. What is left to understand about our traditions when it does not resemble even remotely our true traditions anymore?


The work that is being done in this area is done out of the greatest Love and admiration for your people and my people as well. The underlying purpose of all of this is to create unity and the only way to have unity is for people to understand and respect the people around them. You are very mislead here. Unity is not "created" by superiority which is what you are describing. You cannot force others to understand or respect anything. How could anyone respect YOUR people when they disrespectfully take from other religions and claim it as your own?

The things you listed as being the causes of the worlds problems are only symptoms of the problem, not the root cause. The real problem is accepting and respecting differences which obviously your people do not. Otherwise, they would not take of anothers religion nor would they feel compelled to enter reservation land to convert Indians from their old traditional beliefs. The rest of that is just an excuse to commit cultural theivery and genocide and cover it beneath a false veil of peace and understanding. Sadly, your people have not learned from history and are continuing the "tradition" of cultural genocide.

If you want peace, understanding, unity and respect as well as fostering brotherhood then you will leave our beliefs alone and quit taking from them. You will also leave us as we are and respect that this is the way we choose to believe, not as you would have us to believe. That is the highest understanding and respect you could share and you will derive the peace and unity you seek in doing so.


All human beings are equal, we all posess different talents and facalties but not one of us is greater than the other. I may have a gift of understanding in one area while you are given a greater talent in another. We are all unique in our make up and understanding but we are all equal in the eyes of God. It is interesting that you understand this concept, yet follow a religion that does not. If they did, the Bahai people would also see that Indian spirituality is different and unique and applies to us. You would also recognize that your beliefs should be acceptable and benefit your people. There would be no need to research, study and integrate Indian beliefs into the Bahai beliefs since your faith should be good enough and not in need of improvement by the cultural theft of ours. If your people truly believed that we are all equal in the eyes of God, then why are your people convincing Indians that their beliefs arent acceptable and swaying them to yours? If we are all equal then wouldnt your religion be just as good as ours and you would not need to take from it?


....and truly desire that something can be done to eliminate any acts that are creating anomisty between your people and my people,<snip>and for the benefit of us and our children we need to bury the hatchet and solve the more pressing problems that exist in the world. If you truly desire to do something then please do this, leave our traditions alone, leave our people alone. Respect our differences and beliefs, they are ours. If you truly wish to benefit us and our children then do so, learn our history but do not take from it. Respect our beliefs but do not take them as your own, respect our people and do not try to make us as you want us to be.

For us, this IS the most pressing problem in the world. Each time someone comes along, takes from our culture and then passes it on in some form, it changes. Eventually, if you people (christians included) do not leave us alone, there will be nothing left for you to take anymore because we wont exist. Is that what you would like? To wax fondly while looking at pictures in history books? Do you not understand that this is more than just discussion over religious dynamics it is the Indian peoples FIGHT TO SURVIVE????? Read this!!!! EACH TIME YOU PEOPLE TAKE FROM US MY PEOPLE DIE A LITTLE MORE!!!!! LEAVE OUR PEOPLE AND TRADITIONS ALONE!!!!!

Sadly, I highly doubt you will never respect us by leaving us and our traditions alone. You believe that somehow you are doing us a favor and honoring us in some way when in actuality you are destroying the very essence of our being with every step you move closer to try and "understand" us. If you want to understand us, let us decide what it is of ours that may be of benefit to you instead of assuming you know this already and that it is available for you to freely take and integrate as your own.

There will never be this unity and understanding you seek as long as you deny that you are doing any wrong. This arrogant blindness will never win you the freindship and unity of Indian people.

[VegasRonin]

I would be more than glad to share with you my understanding of the relationship of the Prophet Noah, which comes from references in the Bible, The Qu'ran, The Baha'i writings and from the oral traditions of diverse groups of Aboriginal peoples from around the world.

The Biblical Noah didn't exist. The whole story is stolen from a Sumerian story. Noah's real name was Zuisudra. He was a Sumerian Merchant, and never espoused prophecy. The story was stolen and changed to fit into Judaen Christian paradigms. If you're going to assimilate global religions. Start with the truth. :nono:

[Defiant Noquisi]

The Biblical Noah didn't exist. The whole story is stolen from a Sumerian story. Noah's real name was Zuisudra. He was a Sumerian Merchant, and never espoused prophecy. The story was stolen and changed to fit into Judaen Christian paradigms. If you're going to assimilate global religions. Start with the truth. :nono: Good point, most organized religion has made it a standard policy to change and deviate from history and its original beliefs in order to subjugate the masses. This includes taking from other religions. Cut to fit, paint to match.

Look at religious holidays like christmas. It was originally a pagan holiday that christian preists changed to celebrate the birth of Jesus who was actually born around Sept/Oct. Lets take this evil pagan holiday and make it more christian acceptable rather than respecting the fact that people are different and have different beliefs. Total control and annihilation of spiritual free will through religious coercion and subjugation.

There is no way possible to do this and be truthful. Somewhere, something will change enough that would make either the original beliefs and/or the new ones hypocritical.

Worst of all, the religious sheeple are so blind in their Rainbow Brite happy world saying we are all the same and we are all related that they cant see the damage and hypocrisy they inflict on others. You ever watch kids in a store? You know the ones, they cant keep their hands off anything. Eventually something will break. :nono: :bncry:

[DontBeAfraid]

As far as we KNOW jesus was never ACTUALLY born at all.

Im still waiting for what I want in the other thread.

[Godsgifttomankind]

The Biblical Noah didn't exist. The whole story is stolen from a Sumerian story. Noah's real name was Zuisudra. He was a Sumerian Merchant, and never espoused prophecy. The story was stolen and changed to fit into Judaen Christian paradigms. If you're going to assimilate global religions. Start with the truth. :nono:

Thank-you for your great reply VR,

Let us examine what you have presented,

The name Noah in Hebrew is derived from No another name for God, recognized primarily by the Egyptians and Ah meaning desired or chosen.
Thus the name Noah is Chosen or desired of God

Zuisudra is a Sumerian form of the same name.
Ubar-tutu and Utnapishtim have the same meaning to the Babylonians
It is written Manu in Sanskrit and Deucalian in Greek.

Every culture has an understanding of the Great flood and while the understandings vary from region to region they are all talking about the same event. This question is like trying to determine the real Jesus that exists in the different denominations of Christianity but with a far greater time frame to create more and more confusion.

The point to me is that God has said that Noah was his chosen, in the Bible, in the Qu'ran, in the Bayan and in the Bahai writings. Every culture that I have checked confirms this is the case. Names are always a great challenge to us, I call something by one name, you call it something else, some one else calls it by a different name. Does that mean that it is something different or just a different name for the same thing?

[DontBeAfraid]

Before this gets out of hand...

There is NO evidence of a worldwide flood! There have been floods all over the world at one time or another, and almost everywhere has been "under water" at some time, but it was NOT all at the same time.

Floods worldwide, not worldwide flood.

[VegasRonin]

Every culture has an understanding of the Great flood and while the understandings vary from region to region they are all talking about the same event. Its not the same event. Here's your homework assignment. Sumeria predated your OTHER flood story by how many years? The Sumerian story did not wipe out mankind but was rather location specific. To say they're the same story is to totally ignore any concept of a time line.

[DarkAce]

Did you by chance see that program on one of the Discovery/History channels or read up on it Ronin?

[VegasRonin]

Read and watch DarkAce. I'm a Discovery Channel and History Channel Junky. I also read a lot of books on Ancient Civilizations and religions.

[Defiant Noquisi]

As far as we KNOW jesus was never ACTUALLY born at all.

Im still waiting for what I want in the other thread. I actually did research that and found it to be true, that Jesus was actually born. If I had placed that much importance on it now I would have it before me but it is stuffed away in a box somewhere. Otherwise, I would have posted it for you in the other thread for you to peruse.

I found published documentation from a couple of the philosophers of that period and works of others which mention Jesus in their works. And sad but true, Ive known a couple of atheists who proved themselves right into being christians. ACK!!! They went from one side of the fence to the other. I believe him to be real based on the information of the time outside of biblical works and that is all.

I admire your skepticism but as in the other thread, dont get too carried away lest you miss something of value.

[Defiant Noquisi]

Every culture has an understanding of the Great flood and while the understandings vary from region to region they are all talking about the same event. Unless you have literally studied the hundreds of thousands of cultures that exist, this is a pretty enormous claim. You arent being the least bit accurate in claiming "every culture" since you have made it quite obvious you know nothing of mine.

Speaking of my own culture, no, we do not have an understanding of a "great flood" because we have not had one in our history, not one that wiped out mankind save a few. Since my people have been alive for thousands of years without ever being wiped out, that would make your gigantic man killing flood a fallacy.

All you are is just another religious joker trying to dehumanize Indian people and any others who do not believe as you so you can swoop in and try to save the day with your misguided religion.