Chances of a draft?

[derangel]

I'd just like to know what everyone feels about the possibility of the U.S. government reinstating the draft. I don't know how likely it is, but in any case I definitely don't want it to happen. And I know there are plenty of people who will join me in that sentiment. Short of an army invading the U.S., there's nothing that will convince me to pick up a gun and start shooting people with impunity.

[stewey]

There were two senators that backed the draft bill. Both Democrats, and most speculation was it was only introduced to help Senator Kerry (through "Bush = draft" rumors) in the November elections. What happened to the bill? It is already dead if I remember correctly. It won't pass. Volunteer military is better than drafted one, and we have no dire need for troops, so a draft won't happen.

Not one major party endorses a draft; it will not happen.

[voxpopulisuxx]

I'd just like to know what everyone feels about the possibility of the U.S. government reinstating the draft. I don't know how likely it is, but in any case I definitely don't want it to happen. And I know there are plenty of people who will join me in that sentiment. Short of an army invading the U.S., there's nothing that will convince me to pick up a gun and start shooting people with impunity.
The draft has no place in a free society. A nation whos borders are under attack does not need a draft unless the country is despised...or the cause...I have a quote from a woman that says it best
“I wouldn't trade my living, breathing, beautiful kids for all the praise and popularity in the world. I don't want a graveside military salute, three-cornered flag, or computer-signed condolence card from Donald Rumsfeld, in exchange for the ones I love – they're not for sale”Dr. Teresa Whitehurst
begin to establish conscientious objector status now! do not allow your sons to apply to the selective service ....the so called volunteer army is secretly a draft army to some degree because of the evil policy of stop loss reinlistment....
seek the truth....go to the essay I posted on the Ultimate conspiricy and expose the game that is being played...

[Brewloc]

Just so we get some 'facts' into the mix. Two bills. One in the Senate (sitting in the Committee on Armed Services) and one in the House (dead). Read them.


Title: A bill to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.


S.89 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN00089:@@@L&summ2=m&)


H.R.163 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquerytr/z?d108:HR00163:)

Selective Service will do the work. Go here (http://www.sss.gov/) and read about it, if anything just this (http://www.sss.gov/what.htm).



The Selective Service System and the registration requirement for America's young men provide our Nation with a structure and a system of guidelines which will provide the most prompt, efficient, and equitable draft possible, if the country should need it. America's leaders agree that despite the success of the All-Volunteer Force, registration with Selective Service must continue as a key component of national security strategy.


Here is how much we pay for this:


SELECTIVE SERVICE SYSTEM

SALARIES AND EXPENSES

------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------

Fiscal year 2005 recommendation $26,300,000

Fiscal year 2004 appropriation 26,153,000

Fiscal year 2005 budget request 26,300,000

Comparison with fiscal year 2004 appropriation +147,000

Comparison with fiscal year 2005 budget request 0

------------------------------------------------------------

I voted that it is possible [I won't deny the possibility].

[prezhorusin04]

http://www.enjoythedraft.com/images/armynewx.jpg
http://www.enjoythedraft.com/target.php

[stewey]

While it is possible, it won't happen. No politician would dare give up their political career for it.

[ATX]

Interesting video clips concerning draft:
http://www.willthomas.net/911/Bush/Congress_Military_Draft.htm
http://www.willthomas.net/911/Bush/Draft.htm

[ATX]

Experts See Military Draft as Inevitable

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2005/02/17expertsseemilit.html

There may come a day when Uncle Sam wants Wayne Flenniken for the U.S. Army.

In many ways, he's an ideal candidate for military service. At 15, he already has finished high school and is enrolled at Delaware Technical & Community College studying Spanish and English. There is a problem, however. Wayne doesn't want any part of Uncle Sam's Army - or anyone else's, for that matter.

"I don't believe in war and I don't like the military in any way, shape or form," he said. "I don't think anyone should be forced to die prematurely."

That's why he went to a draft resistance training session Friday in his hometown of Newark. It's why Wayne has begun building his case as a conscientious objector.

The United States no longer has a military draft and hasn't since 1973, when it converted to an all-volunteer military.

But some anti-war activists say it's only a matter of time before the Bush administration and the Republican-controlled Congress bring it back. Meanwhile, conservatives and moderates outside the administration have taken a hard look at America's military commitments and are urging Congress to beef up the Army and Marines.

Many elected officials say there is no way the draft will be brought back any time soon.

"Our current all-volunteer force is highly effective, well-trained, well-disciplined and capable of handling our global and national security commitments," said Rep. Mike Castle, R-Del. "[Defense] Secretary [Donald] Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs of Staff have continuously stated their opposition to reviving the draft and the House of Representatives overwhelmingly rejected such a proposal last year. I personally oppose it."

Others aren't so certain.

"I don't see the need for a draft, but we need to prepare now in order to avoid having one forced on us in the future," said Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del. "We can reduce the stress we are placing on our armed forces by increasing the number of ground troops in the Army and Marine Corps and bringing the size of our military in line with our expanded responsibilities in a post-9/11 world," he said.

Looking for help

A few believe, however, that the White House should get other nations to share the burden in Iraq.

"We have 12 [combat] divisions and 10 are locked down in Iraq, either coming or going," said Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del. "Our ability to have any flexibility with ground forces anywhere else is diminished. If we had to move into Iran, Syria, North Korea or anywhere else, we'd be in real difficulty."

In addition, he said, "we have absolutely spent, exhausted, and in some instances misled the National Guard and the reserves. I've been in Baghdad and Fallujah and I've spoken with them. When they enlisted in the Guard, they never anticipated being sent for two tours of duty in Iraq lasting a year or 18 months. We can't keep asking citizen soldiers to do that."

In a highly critical memo on the use of Reservists, Lt. Gen. James Helmly said virtually the same thing late last year. Helmly, chief of the Army Reserve, said that "overuse" in Iraq and Afghanistan could result in a "broken force."

Biden co-sponsored legislation with Republican Sen. John McCain and others that allows the Army to increase its active duty strength by 30,000 troops. The Defense Department said earlier this month that it expects to meet that goal by 2007.

Anti-war activists agree with Biden and Helmly that the military needs additional troops.

"We already have our troops stretched to the limit," said J.E. McNeil, executive director of the Center on Conscience & War. The Guard and Reserve cannot continue to provide about 40 percent of the nation's combat troops, Biden said.

As a result, McNeil and other anti-war activists such as Sally Milbury-Steen, executive director of the Wilmington-based peace organization Pacem in Terris, said they think a draft is on the horizon.

"I think there's a very good chance of a military draft in the next two years. We have soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and now they're heating up the rhetoric on Iran. Where else will the soldiers come from?" Milbury-Steen asked.

Peace activists aren't the only ones thinking seriously about compulsory military service. In a well-publicized letter sent to congressional leaders in late January, conservatives and moderates said flatly that "the United States military is too small for the responsibilities we are asking it to assume."

In that letter, retired military leaders such as Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey joined with defense analysts such as Michele Flournoy and political commentators such as William Kristol in asking Congress "to take the steps necessary to increase substantially the size of the active duty Army and Marine Corps. ... it is our judgment that we should aim for an increase in the active-duty Army and Marine Corps, together, of at least 25,000 troops each year over the next several years."

They do not call for a draft but anti-war activists say they see no other certain way to boost military strength.

"The most probable way they will start is to do a selected draft of medical people, those with specialized computer skills, and those with Arabic language skills and let it spread further," Milbury-Steen said.

'Everything is in place'

If a new draft law is enacted, the government could start sending new recruits to military training very quickly. The reason: Former President Jimmy Carter put the framework of the current Selective Service system in place in 1980. Although Carter never activated it, as part of the framework, young men must register with the government when they turn 18.

That means, Milbury-Steen said, that new recruits could be sent to boot camp within two weeks of the draft law's passage.

"Everything is in place, ready to go," she said.

Charles Pena, director of Defense Policy Studies at the Cato Institute, a conservative Washington-based think tank, does not see a military draft in the future. Instead, he said, the federal government is more likely to require compulsory national service.

"We won't have a draft like we had in the Vietnam era," Pena said. "There are two important stumbling blocks to bringing that back. First, what do you do about women? They weren't drafted before but are now an important part of the military. Second, what happens if someone who is drafted says that he or she is a homosexual?"

Discussion reflects support

There is no groundswell for national service legislation now, Pena said, but it is being discussed by lawmakers and at policy seminars throughout the nation's capital.

"It's lurking right below the surface. There are enough people willing to get behind it on Capitol Hill that it's something that could be done. Right now no one's pushing for it, but just as importantly, no one's pushing against it," he said.

Under national compulsory service, no one would be exempt, he said. People could join the military or perform some other form of community service, Pena said.

Newark resident Jane Curschmann isn't sure there will be a draft. She went to last week's anti-draft training because she has a 13-year-old son and wanted to be better informed about his rights. Judy Butler also attended the session. She doesn't know if there will be a draft but is suspicious of the Bush administration's forceful denials that there are plans to reinstitute one.

"I have a problem with credibility with this particular administration," she said.

Wayne Flenniken's father, Eric, a former Army Reservist, went to the draft resistance training with his son because, while he doesn't have a problem defending the country from enemies, he has a problem sending his son to fight in Iraq.

"I used to be gung-ho when I was younger but this war in Iraq, it all boils down to oil and oil interests. You want to send my son to Iraq to defend Enron? No," he said, "I don't think so."

[stringybeef]

What are the chances of a draft in the next 5 years? In the United States that is.

[Brewloc]

We talked about it here (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showthread.php?t=4101) some just the other day. Some say no way in hell and others think it will just be a matter of time if the current doctrine is upheld.

[MetalMilitia]

http://www.armageddononline.org/#news

I posted this one earler....

Army Having Difficulty Meeting Goals In Recruiting
Category : War | Posted : 21 Feb 2005 05:40 pm

The active-duty Army is in danger of failing to meet its recruiting goals, and is beginning to suffer from manpower strains like those that have dropped the National Guard and Reserves below full strength, according to Army figures and interviews with senior officers .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40469-2005Feb20?language=printer

Any conflict, or an uprising hot spot will stretch out an already thin army.... With all the talks of Syria, Iran, N. Korea... to me it looks inevitable.

[midnightsonblaze]

If there is a Draft, you are not required to join the Military.....

You cannot be forced because the Military is "Voluntary"

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=127&contentid=1799&page=2

I think this link has been posted here, but it was a long time ago....

Enjoy guys & gals....

Later....

[stringybeef]

If there is a Draft, you are not required to join the Military.....

I thought a draft was the government forcing its citizens of a certain age to join the military for war except if your in school.

[midnightsonblaze]

You cannot be forced to join a 'Voluntary' Military......

[DontBeAfraid]

If they REINSTATE the draft our army is no longer voluntary. Thats how that works. There may still be some volunteer units.

[midnightsonblaze]

Still, the only forcing the can do is with threats of imprisonment...You cannot be forced into "involuntary servitude".....You will go to jail, and probably be beaten up, but they CANNOT force you to join...

Later....

[DontBeAfraid]

Thats how they did it the last time. Its prison or military. Thats how the draft works.

[voxpopulisuxx]

What happens to an 18 year old who doesnt register with the Govt?

[stringybeef]

Got ya thanks.

[The Sword]

I don't think there will be a draft.
The people of America don't want the draft.
Let's face it. It's a sign of the times. It simply don't compute. It just doesn't seem to be down the roads of these cross roads.
If the government was to reinstate it, we, they, ect... would have a terrible mess on their hands. All the bad shit would begin to resurface than die away. And conflicts from within would grow tremendously. And I don't think the government wants that kind of diffucult times ahead.
I don't think any other country could cause this to happen either.
In other words., there is no gain to the draft.
America just has to say no to war.

JUST SAY NO

[Brewloc]

I think there is some jail time involved, but don't quote me on that one. Anyone know what happens or what the penality is?

[Strife]

http://www.washingtonpeacecenter.org/articles/draft.html

Just a quick link off google.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Penalties Can I Face?

There are substantial penalties for not registering. As it presently stands, the penalties for non-registration are still officially up to 10 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. Despite what is technically on the books, it is not the policy of the Selective Service to prosecute people who refuse to register for the draft. Since draft registration was reinstated in 1980, only about 20 young men, out of thousands and thousands, have been prosecuted for not signing up, with no prosecutions occurring since 1985.

Far more effective than the largely empty threats of prison and fines, however, are the financially oppressive tactics currently in use by the Selective Service. Today, if someone refuses to comply with the government's preparations for war by not registering for the draft, they will be denied federal financial aid for college, state financial aid, and they are barred from employment with the federal government (including the postal service and the national park service). Males have until age 26 to register. If registration has not taken place by then, the possibilities of financial aid and government employment are forever forfeited. In addition to these government strong-arm tactics, legislation has been proposed in at least 21 states to deny driver's licenses and/or high school diplomas to non-registrants, and some states have even denied admission to state colleges and universities for choosing not to register for the draft.

[Brewloc]

Thanks Strife!

[Strife]

No problaaymo.

[Haliburton]

Drop your cocks and grab your socks ladies because the draft is right around the corner. This should get rid of alot of the problems with these forums also. :jamn:

[Kaos]

maybe they should inlist all these borderjumpers from mexico.

[Brewloc]

Many do enlist. Military service is a way of gaining citizenship. The ranks of our armed services are made up many different nationalities. They must have a valid green card though so I guess that does not meet the full definition of a "borderjumer."


More than 35,000 soldiers who are green-card holders serve in the U.S. military. U.S. law allows foreign permanent residents to join the armed forces, but they cannot hold certain sensitive posts or high-level rank unless they become citizens.

Many join to speed citizenship applications. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, President Bush signed orders expediting naturalization for green-card soldiers.

In my eight years of service I had to privilege to serve with many fine soldiers from Mexico.

[Emerald_Dragon]

yeppers, my guess a couple months ago was summer 2005. But if we attack Iran in March like we attacked Iraq in March, then well, it could be sooner. who knows?

[Protostar]

I read that during the election (US), a bill was "in house" for a draft of
Medical and other pertinant people/professions? I believe that'll be
true with maybe a draft, especially if we need manpower.

[stewey]

What makes you think there will be a draft?

[HorrorReporter]

There are a few things I think about the draft...
First of all, I dont think it would happen, but if it truly does happen, it would be Bush since he doesn't have to worry about releection.
Next thing is that I do agree that a draft doesn't truly have a place in a free society, barring some type of civil war or invasion...at that point we must all be drafted to protect our constitution, it's our duty...

Now..a war in Iran/Iraq/Syria/anywhere besides this issue would not warrant a draft in my eyes...I don't think the army would benefit...I don't think top Pentagon brass wants it...I think there'd be a revolt against it...
I do not think it will happen...

www.horror-report.com
All the news Unfit to Print

[Brewloc]

There would only be a draft if things heated up for lack of a better word. Something like this I guess....

Things heat up in Afghanistan and we have to put more troops on the ground, things also heat up in Iraq and we have to put more troops on the ground, in comes country X (your guess is as good as mine??) that is next on the list and it begins to heat up.

Once this happens our all volunteer force would reach critical staffing levels, its a number game. Our all volunteer force is no match for the sheer number of people needed to bring freedom to the places that they say need it.

The fact that it is a part of how be have done business since the day we became a republic is enough for me the think it could happen again. Read about conscription here (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_019500_conscription.htm).

Will it happen? Who knows? Could it happen? Hell yes it could!

:jamn:

[stewey]

The only rumors of draft are speculation. There are no plans for draft reinstatement.

[Haliburton]

The only rumors of draft are speculation. There are no plans for draft reinstatement.
It seems the polls are shifting on this topic. Will the Admins be able to keep up this site from iraq? :jamn:

[ATX]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0330draft30-ON.html

Draft may be needed in a year, military analysts warn

Bob Dart
Cox News Service
Mar. 30, 2005 03:24 PM

WASHINGTON - If American forces aren't pulling out of Iraq in a year, a draft will be needed to meet manpower requirements, military analysts warned Wednesday.

With recruitment lagging and no end in sight for U.S. forces in Iraq, the "breaking point" for the nation's all-volunteer military will be mid-2006, agreed Lawrence Korb, a draft opponent and assistant defense secretary in the Reagan administration, and Phillip Carter, a conscription advocate and former Army captain.

"America's all-volunteer military simply cannot deploy and sustain enough troops to succeed in places like Iraq while still deterring threats elsewhere in the world," Carter concluded in the March issue of "Washington Monthly."

Korb is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank, and a senior adviser to the Center for Defense Information. Carter is attorney who writes on military affairs for Slate.com and other media. They debated at a symposium on the draft Wednesday.

While conceding that the Army, Marines, National Guard and Army Reserve -- the branches serving most in Iraq -- face recruitment difficulties, military officials have denied any plans to revive the draft, which was replaced by an all-volunteer force in 1973.

"The 'D-word' is the farthest thing from my thoughts," Army Secretary Francis Harvey said at a Pentagon press briefing last week. He said the all-volunteer force has proven its value and applauded the performance of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"When you get over there, there's no difference between the active, the Reserves and the National Guard. The quality is high across the board. ... It's seamless," he said.

During his re-election campaign, President Bush declared flatly that he would not reinstate the draft. And there is little support for conscription on Capitol Hill.

"Today, no leading politician in either party will come anywhere near the idea -- the draft having replaced Social Security as the third rail of American politics," wrote Carter.

However, the analysts said that the all-volunteer army is on the verge of "breaking" under current circumstances. The 3rd Infantry Division based in Fort Stewart, Ga., and the 4th Infantry Division based in Fort Hood, Texas, are among the units that are being sent back for a second tour in Iraq.

The National Guard and Reserves historically depend on men and women leaving active duty to fill their ranks, Carter pointed out. But they're not going to join if it means they will be sent right back to Iraq in an activated unit, he said.

Military men, women and machines are all suffering from repeated deployments.

"What keeps me awake at night is what will this all-volunteer force look like in 2007," Richard Cody, the Army Vice Chief of Staff, told the Senate Armed Services Committee on March 16.

Korb, assistant secretary defense for manpower from 1981 through 1985, said the current rotation is unfair to the "patriotic" men and women who volunteered for military service and are stuck on a cycle in and out of Iraq. Since only a tiny segment of the populace is sacrificing, there is no political pressure to change the system, he said.

"If you had a draft right now, I think you'd be out of Iraq," Korb said.

The American society "hasn't gotten the message that we're at war," agreed Carter.

"Those at peril are completely divorced from those in power," said Mark Shields, a syndicated columnist and TV commentator who moderated the symposium. "It's 'Patriotism Lite' -- you put a sticker on your SUV."

"America has a choice," wrote Carter. "It can be the world's superpower or it can maintain the current all-voluntary military. But it probably can't do both."

[GoldenGoose]

No way

bush has all but promised that the military will remain voluntary. Besides it would have to be approved by congress and the public out rage would cause any congressman to think twice.

so unless there is a dramatic redeployment of troops such as with a new war I don't think the president would ever dare to even mention the word draft.

[Strife]

Comman sense told me that Bush wouldn't get reelcted a second term, it happened. The 'sheeple' (heh..) approve this man.

He'll come up with yet another half ass speech that'll persuade the public to understand his 'just' idea. It's only a matter of time.

[stewey]

You live in Massachusetts, where Ted Kennedy gets elected... I wouldn't call other people "sheeple"

[Strife]

I never asked to be born anywhere specifically stewey.

Whole point is the major portion of this country, statistically shown (judging by the votes), are gullible. Thus the word shee..err, words to describe them, gullible people.

[tranz]

Here is a good site to keep up with draft talk and action if you so desire.

http://www.nodraftnoway.org/

They have a good news section...

[Swordsbane]

Here is a good site to keep up with draft talk and action if you so desire.

http://www.nodraftnoway.org/

They have a good news section...

"more than 200 participants from all over the Northeast gathered...."

<sarcasm> Woohoo!! They're really pulling out all the stops.</sarcasm>

You get more people to come out for an anti-gun rally. That alone should tell you that the rest of the country doesn't take the draft rumors very seriously. The most noise I hear is from people who are asking "Are the rumors true?" The answer from anyone who should know and is reasonably honest is: "No" And it's usually a tired 'no'

No congressman/woman who votes for a draft will get reelected in the current public climate. It doesn't matter how much Bush tries to convince them. He can't make that threat go away. I'm not worried about a draft at all. If we attack Iran and we don't have enough men, we'll stall until 2008 and the next president will pull us out. The ONLY chance we have of getting a draft is if America is attacked Pearl Harbor style. We might not need a draft then either because the entire state of Texas at least will be at the recruiting stations the next morning. :crazy:

[leyprophet]

I think everyone should apon graduation of high school be put into the military for 1 year. This would give the non-militant of us a greater understanding of the military. Through that understanding we the people could work to either improve how our forces operate or better support them in thier various causes. Also after 1 year in the forces there probaly would be enough volunteers to stay that we would not need to draft soldiers who would prefer to be conscientious bystanders.

[dutchie]

I merged this thread with an older one. Moved it from the Conspiracy forum to the Politics and Current Events forum..

[Swordsbane]

I think everyone should apon graduation of high school be put into the military for 1 year. This would give the non-militant of us a greater understanding of the military. Through that understanding we the people could work to either improve how our forces operate or better support them in thier various causes. Also after 1 year in the forces there probaly would be enough volunteers to stay that we would not need to draft soldiers who would prefer to be conscientious bystanders.

That might work in peacetime, but what happens when the anti-military people are on say their third month and something like Iraq happens. Would you threaten them with jail time to make them go? Would the soldiers who want to be in the military feel good about sharing a foxhole with them under the circumstances?

No thanks. All volunteer is the only way to go. It is a good barometer for weather the government is doing the right thing. If recruitment is down, then just maybe this particular war doesn't need to be fought. Too bad Bush doesn't seem to be paying attention. If the war is truly important, then more people will be willing to fight in it. The fact that the last election was so close should tell the administration how divisive the war is making the public, and he doesn't even try to justify it anymore. If he wants more soldiers, why doesn't he at least try to make us all believe it's for a good cause? I like the idea of the politicians having to give at least some thought to convincing us they're right. With a draft or any kind of compulsory service, they don't need to do that.

[Brandon101]

Compulsary military service for everyone? The beasts, er, I mean the Israelis do that. Do YOU want to be like the Israelis?

[Emerald_Dragon]

some people have other aspirations after high school. like college, pre-law, pre-med, homemaker, entrepreneur. many other options. if anything should be compulsory, it should be education. not military service where you become a soldier. young minds can be molded. it should be a voluntary choice, not made for you. conscripts have never been better than professionals who like their job. the Pentagon doesn't even want a draft, but you know, when management has a problem, it wants a solution. and sometimes, the solution is just a matter of throwing bodies at the problem.

no, the draft is not a good idea.

[Haliburton]

I have to agree with leyprophet. A one to two year mandatory service would do wonders. It would give the dicipline and confidence to young people that they so desperatly need. We already have one generation if not more who are all but useless. Fat, Lazy, don't want to work pieces of sh!t. It would also greatly help the obesity problem in this country. :2thumbs:

[Swordsbane]

I have to agree with leyprophet. A one to two year mandatory service would do wonders. It would give the dicipline and confidence to young people that they so desperatly need. We already have one generation if not more who are all but useless. Fat, Lazy, don't want to work pieces of sh!t. It would also greatly help the obesity problem in this country. :2thumbs:

I know something else that would do the same thing and we won't have to handicapp the people who protect the country from harm.

Parenting.

[Skygirl]

I know something else that would do the same thing and we won't have to handicapp the people who protect the country from harm.

Parenting.


YES!!!!!!!!

[stewey]

Draft won't happen. It'd be political suicide for any party that wanted it.

The only draft bills were introduced by Democrats, and since currently Republicans hold the majority, it won't happen.

[Brandon101]

You complain about high-school graduates being lazy and worthless. I agree, but military service is not the answer. Give them a test. If they fail, FUCKING BLOW THEIR GODDAMN BRAINS OUT. problem solved.

[Brandon101]

Fine. I'm drunk, otherwise I wouldnt' have said what I said in my frevios post. Damn you Evan Williams. Anyway, let me explain my postition before anybody yells at me. Let's all quit this human rights bullshit. You're worrth exactly what you can provide society. That's it. If you're going to be lazy, go die for your country so the rest of us who can provide something don't have to. I grew up in the rural south, and while I absolutely despise almost everything about it, I certainly admire the work ethic. I work like a fucking dog round my house; plowing, lifting, planting, cleaning, tinkering, fixing, harvesting, putting up hay (at least 100 pound balres of hay, which have to be thrown 15 feet into a barn loft), mowing 2 or 3 acres every other day, then taking a sweeper over it to get up the loose grass, which can take 3 or 4 hours; I do it all. I hate anyone who can't or won't do that. I've lost almost all friends because they're too laxy to do shit like that. On top of that, do I get paid to bust my ass? HAHAHA, No. I try to see every point of view on a subject but I stilll think everyone should have those same values embedded into them or should be sentenced to death to or military service or slavery. It would straighten all these punks and goth dumbasses right the hell up. People should be WORTH SOMETHING before their lives should matter in the least to the rest of us.

[DontBeAfraid]

You should join the military brandon.


oh, and work isnt for everyone. Just ask the president.

[lotrfan55345]

I try to see every point of view on a subject but I stilll think everyone should have those same values embedded into them or should be sentenced to death to or military service or slavery. It would straighten all these punks and goth dumbasses right the hell up. People should be WORTH SOMETHING before their lives should matter in the least to the rest of us.

You know... 1 out of 6 people in the world are too malnourished to do this kind of work. Should they be punished?

And a little less than 1 out of 2 also do around the same work on substinence farming in the bannana republic/sub-saharan/general 3rd world country that they are stuck in.

[Swordsbane]

Fine. I'm drunk, otherwise I wouldnt' have said what I said in my frevios post. Damn you Evan Williams. Anyway, let me explain my postition before anybody yells at me. Let's all quit this human rights bullshit. You're worrth exactly what you can provide society. That's it. If you're going to be lazy, go die for your country so the rest of us who can provide something don't have to. I grew up in the rural south, and while I absolutely despise almost everything about it, I certainly admire the work ethic. I work like a fucking dog round my house; plowing, lifting, planting, cleaning, tinkering, fixing, harvesting, putting up hay (at least 100 pound balres of hay, which have to be thrown 15 feet into a barn loft), mowing 2 or 3 acres every other day, then taking a sweeper over it to get up the loose grass, which can take 3 or 4 hours; I do it all. I hate anyone who can't or won't do that. I've lost almost all friends because they're too laxy to do shit like that. On top of that, do I get paid to bust my ass? HAHAHA, No. I try to see every point of view on a subject but I stilll think everyone should have those same values embedded into them or should be sentenced to death to or military service or slavery. It would straighten all these punks and goth dumbasses right the hell up. People should be WORTH SOMETHING before their lives should matter in the least to the rest of us.

The problem is that EVERYONE is worth something until they're not. Until they've crossed the line and don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us. It's not what we see in them NOW that's important, but their potential. This is why the idea (though not as it is practised now) of prison is primarily rehabilitation, not punishment. An adult criminal who is just punished won't end his life of crime, but will try harder not to get caught the next time. They need to be educated in an alternative to their life of crime that looks better TO THEM, not to the rest of us. If people are lazy, it is because they grew up to be that kind of person. Get them when their young is an unofficial motto of the military, and they know what they're doing. It's much harder to change a persons point of view as they get older. That's why I said "parenting" Your parents and your teachers have/had a greater influence on you than you think. Parents and teachers are the most important things in your life and look what society has done to them: Parents are counselled not to strike their children for fear of it being called abuse. Teachers are overruled when they hand out punishment.

It's funny, but academics and Liberal arts are downplayed in favor of the industry of the day and sports, but if Einstein were alive today, no one would listen to his theories because he wasn't educated. Your diploma and/or your degree mean more than your life experience, but schools emphasize the wrong things. Everything is backward. People focus on guns and the media as if the guns were posessed by evil spirits and TV executives are trying to turn normal kids into criminals. You're more likely to get struck by lightning a dozen times than be turned into a serial killer by watching violent movies or playing violent games, but I probably don't even need to give you a hint as to what we spend more time and money to protect people from.

Our society is more screwed than a poodle in heat, and then people focus on one thing as a miracle cure (eg gun laws, wars, democrat/republican votes, religion) and the hilarious thing is that they continually miss the one thing that would make the most difference: teaching your child right from wrong. Not just "It's wrong to steal/kill" Most people have those kinds of things down pretty good, but teaching them values like respect (for themselves and others), cooperation, even simple things like manners. Most figure that if the cops haven't brought their kid home or they haven't had to go bail the kid out at school, it's a good day. It needs to be better.

Yeah.. I know. I ramble. :grin Someone else can have this soap-box now.

[2cool4stats]

Fine. I'm drunk, otherwise I wouldnt' have said what I said in my frevios post. Damn you Evan Williams. Anyway, let me explain my postition before anybody yells at me. Let's all quit this human rights bullshit. You're worrth exactly what you can provide society. That's it. If you're going to be lazy, go die for your country so the rest of us who can provide something don't have to.
Do you speak for the real world and do you actually believe what you write? You have to remember that human rights are essential characteristics of civilized society. Of course, laziness should never be advocated and I see your point regarding it. However, people shouldn't be viewed as worth material according to what they provide society. You're also meaning to tell me that if a person is unable to find a job or is quite ill to undertake employment, he or she is unworthy to live?



I work like a fucking dog round my house; plowing, lifting, planting, cleaning, tinkering, fixing, harvesting, putting up hay (at least 100 pound balres of hay, which have to be thrown 15 feet into a barn loft), mowing 2 or 3 acres every other day, then taking a sweeper over it to get up the loose grass, which can take 3 or 4 hours; I do it all. I hate anyone who can't or won't do that. I've lost almost all friends because they're too laxy to do shit like that.
You mentioned "can't". That would indicate that you're referring to people who are unable to work due to health issues. Basically, what you're saying is that you hate those people as well. With that kind of disposition, you would find it quite a difficulty trying to exist efficiently in the real social world. Your view of teamwork isn't consistent with real life efficient working conditions. Real life efficient working conditions require people to act as a cohesive unit. In order for a cohesive unit to be efficient, it has to utilize the best qualities of human communication, familiarity, adaptiveness, toleration, and professionalism.


I try to see every point of view on a subject but I stilll think everyone should have those same values embedded into them or should be sentenced to death to or military service or slavery. It would straighten all these punks and goth dumbasses right the hell up. People should be WORTH SOMETHING before their lives should matter in the least to the rest of us.
You say you try to see every point of view on a subject but you don't practice what you just said. How can you be flexible in your thinking if you wish to sentence death or slave labour to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs about work ethic and values? Not only that, but you just made a stereotype as well (stereotyping is another symptom of being unable to see every point of view). Just because people can follow a certain type of fashion sense or lifestyle, it doesn't mean they are unemployed or lazy. You mean to tell me that you wish these people death and slavery as well because they don't share a similar lifestyle as your's?

One more thing, people are human beings before anything else. If you cannot see the value of humanity outside of your own personal beliefs, then you are only contradicting yourself because a true worker embeds proper human values into his work ethic in order to genuinely help other members of society. Clearly, your concept on work ethic was intended to be very limited and self-centered.

[stewey]

Draft won't happen unless something major happens, in which case there probably won't be a need for one because people volunteer.

Draft = political suicide.

[Swordsbane]

Draft won't happen unless something major happens, in which case there probably won't be a need for one because people volunteer.

Draft = political suicide.

The draft won't happen until we've been in a war so long that we run out of volunteers. If that happens, we're pretty screwed anyway.

[Ghost]

There were two senators that backed the draft bill. Both Democrats, and most speculation was it was only introduced to help Senator Kerry (through "Bush = draft" rumors) in the November elections. What happened to the bill? It is already dead if I remember correctly. It won't pass. Volunteer military is better than drafted one, and we have no dire need for troops, so a draft won't happen.

Not one major party endorses a draft; it will not happen.


Both of the Dem senators who backed it voted against it. It will never happen barring an all out Armegetton type war or nuclear holocaust that decimates the military. At which point all will be chaos anyway and good luck to the government to enforce it.

[Ghost]

. If you're going to be lazy, go die for your country so the rest of us who can provide something don't have to.
..........................

I stilll think everyone should have those same values embedded into them or should be sentenced to death to or military service or slavery. .


So you think I am lazy? Is that why I VOLUNTEERED to serve my country in the MILITARY? You must be a dumbass. I've been through training and done things that would make your pathetic farm life look like a luxury f**king vacation. I grew up on a farm too and you ain't nothing special. And I provide something you never could: your freedom and the ability to sleep easy at night, a freedom given to you by men like me who stand guard at night against those who wish you dead.

And so if if people don't measure up to your standards, you think they should be killed or put in the military? Does death and military service and slavery mean the same thing to you? To die fighting for my country is an Honorable thing. Do not disrespect the military with your ignorant rantings. I fight to so you have the right but I do not have to like you.

Your drunk because you have no friends. You have no friends because the statements you have made reflect your attitude. Who'd want to hang around someone like you?

BTW, military service is volunteer and it is not slavery. Try it you worthless coward.

[SupaTaz]

what he said...

[mikem]

So you think I am lazy? Is that why I VOLUNTEERED to serve my country in the MILITARY? You must be a dumbass. I've been through training and done things that would make your pathetic farm life look like a luxury f**king vacation. I grew up on a farm too and you ain't nothing special. And I provide something you never could: your freedom and the ability to sleep easy at night, a freedom given to you by men like me who stand guard at night against those who wish you dead.

And so if if people don't measure up to your standards, you think they should be killed or put in the military? Does death and military service and slavery mean the same thing to you? To die fighting for my country is an Honorable thing. Do not disrespect the military with your ignorant rantings. I fight to so you have the right but I do not have to like you.

Your drunk because you have no friends. You have no friends because the statements you have made reflect your attitude. Who'd want to hang around someone like you?

BTW, military service is volunteer and it is not slavery. Try it you worthless coward.

You asked for that one Brandon

[substand]

You're worrth exactly what you can provide society. That's it. If you're going to be lazy, go die for your country so the rest of us who can provide something don't have to.
...
I hate anyone who can't or won't do that.

You sound like a socialistic liberal on crack.