if the world had listened to religion!

[voxpopulisuxx]

:2thumbs: Actually if the world had listened to religion we may have been able to stop hitler!

"In his lifetime, Pius XII received more praise and expressions of gratitude from the Jewish people than any other Bishop of Rome in history. Among these was Albert Einstein, who wrote a letter to "Time" magazine in December 1940 stating: "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the case of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom. But they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly."
The praise for the courage of Pope Pius XII in being the only European head of state to speak out during the war was well summed up by a New York Times editorial of December 25, 1942, which stated: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas.... He is about the only ruler left on the continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all."

Is there anything left I need to post on this? Albert Einstein for Gods sake!

[Keeblergiant]

The catholic church may have opposed Hitler, but Hitler himself was still religiously motivated.

[DarkAce]

Actually if the world had listened to religion we may have been able to stop hitler!


We did stop Hitler. If the world listened to some religious interpretations, it would mean world peace and loving one another, but when they listen to others, it's persecution and death all the way. As evident over the millenias of history that we have and even today.

Pope Pius XII was a great man who did a lot to persuade and help others in his campaign to help the jews and fight nazism. Even before he became Pope he was very against anti-semitism as noted in his "Mit Brennender Sorge" (With Burning Anxiety) in 1937.

Pope Pius XII with the Catholic Church at his resource did a tremendous amount of humanitarian aid for the jews and standing firm against the ideology of nazism and hence the praise, even from Einstein and it's much deserved. For those that don't know, Pius XII directed the hiding of Jews in Catholic monasteries and other buildings. They helped forge false papers for Jews including baptism papers to make them appear Catholic. The Vatican gave money, food, and supplies to help Jews throughout Europe. Pius XII's efforts were so well known, it's not hard to understand why the entire world praised him and thanked him.

I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplished by the posting of this? The Catholic church has had a long history of bitterness/hatred and persecution of jews. Pope Pius XII bridged that gap with his efforts.
But because of what one man had accomplished, does not deny all the wrong the instituition has done. No one ever claimed the Catholic Church has never done any good, because they have and still do. It's the bad that it's done that sticks out to people and what turns them away from it.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Thank you for the Kind words about One of the Greatest Popes of the Church. What I meant was that Hitler could have been stopped sooner.Maybe...I also wanted to point out that Hitler was no catholic on a religious crusade against Jews as has been asserted by others...that things have been done in the name of the church, by corrupt or ignorant men, or evil men is never in dispute,, That does not mean the institution itself is evil or corrupt...that is always the thrust of my catholic posts. Why are present Catholics condemned for the sins of their errant members in the past?
And what I hope to accomplish bythe post also is TO DO MY PART TO PROVIDE CONTENT ON ARMAGEDDON ONLINE! As all good members like yourself do.
You win a newfoundrespect ribbon.

[voxpopulisuxx]

The catholic church may have opposed Hitler, but Hitler himself was still religiously motivated.
sure the religion of eugenics, of socialism, of power, of satan worship...I concur
But NOT by any stretch the Christian religion.

[Keeblergiant]

sure the religion of eugenics, of socialism, of power, of satan worship...

I'm sorry buddy, but the only one of those that is a religion is satan worship, and Hitler didn't worship Satan. Hitler was 100% Austrian Chrisitian, dumbass. Here, read this: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm.

[voxpopulisuxx]

jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them.....any man can call himself a christian...the question to you bigger dumbass is did hitler act as a Christian....hell no....stalin studied to be a orthodox priest so what....Jesus picked 12 disciples and one of them was JUDAS....but Iguess all this is lost on your overwhelming hatred of Christ.

[voxpopulisuxx]

oh and even bigger dumbass...Hitler united the protestants into his christian heresy...if you want to say hitler was a christian heretic...then fine I concur...but he was no Catholic...nazism is a form of calvinist lutharinism...so if you lump all christians to gether yes your right....but Christ did not lump Christians together and he sure as hell was no nazi....

[voxpopulisuxx]

Ilove it how people who dont practice Catholicism, hate catholicism,ignore catholicism,etc...seemed to know better what Catholicism teaches then faithfull Catholics.....absurdum infanitum

[DontBeAfraid]

I thought nazi as a political party

[Keeblergiant]

the question to you bigger dumbass is did hitler act as a Christian....hell no...

Hey, fucktard, does not the bible say that the only thing necessary for our salvation was our acceptance of Jesus Christ. Hitler may not have acted like a "Christian," but he accepted Jesus. Maybe you two can be butt buddies when you get to heaven...


but Iguess all this is lost on your overwhelming hatred of Christ.

I never said I hated Christ, in fact, I've said many times that Jesus was the only good thing to happen to the bible.


...but he was no Catholic

...too bad he was a confirmed Catholic.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Hey, fucktard, does not the bible say that the only thing necessary for our salvation was our acceptance of Jesus Christ. Hitler may not have acted like a "Christian," but he accepted Jesus. Maybe you two can be butt buddies when you get to heaven...



I never said I hated Christ, in fact, I've said many times that Jesus was the only good thing to happen to the bible.



...too bad he was a confirmed Catholic.

yeah well the language shows you to be quite the intellect...however
lets get a few things straight.


THE BIBLE SAYS NO WHERE ABOUT HAVEING ONLY TO ACCEPT CHRIST TO BE SAVED..NO WHERE (thats an assinine protestant veiw and I would wish you would ask them that question because its a good one..Catholics do not belive in salvation by faith alone) do you want me to post the scripture or you just an ignorent pussilanimous, garellous, fecal -cepholous?

Being a confirmed Catholic (if he was which I doubt) has no bareing on wether you are actually Catholic....to paraphrase st gump "catholic is as catholic does"

[voxpopulisuxx]

I thought nazi as a political party
what I ment to say (which Im sure was lost on keebler the mental elf) is that German naziism was a direct result of calvinist/lutheren worldveiws...
not Catholic ones
but thanx for giving me the oppurtunity to clarify

[Keeblergiant]

THE BIBLE SAYS NO WHERE ABOUT HAVEING ONLY TO ACCEPT CHRIST TO BE SAVED..NO WHERE

Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13 show it perfectly. Here they are for you, just for easy reference:


Romans 10:9 -- "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."


Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Sure sounds like the only thing necessary for salvation is faith.

[Keeblergiant]

thats an assinine protestant veiw and I would wish you would ask them that question because its a good one..Catholics do not belive in salvation by faith alone

The only reason it's a protestant view is because Catholics used to be fucking money mongering, knowledge oppressing tyrant oppressors and Luther had the balls to stand up to them.

[voxpopulisuxx]

The only reason it's a protestant view is because Catholics used to be fucking money mongering, knowledge oppressing tyrant oppressors and Luther had the balls to stand up to them.
Just when I thought you were worth talking too..
You are indeed an anti-catholic bigot.

I can despute every scripture with scripture to support the catholic view (that Luther rejected for personal reasons) but youd rather spout your ignorant hate speech...oh well...Your not up to the challange obviously.


If you would like to repost the above scripture reference to salvation by faith alone,
fine repost it in the catholic answers thread...and drop the bs bigotted rhetoric...and maybe youll learn something...other wise toootlooo.

[mysticalzoe]

Hey you, it's me, anyhow, since your some old no it all guy you said and I quote:

THE BIBLE SAYS NO WHERE ABOUT HAVEING ONLY TO ACCEPT CHRIST TO BE SAVED..NO WHERE

Well here are a few verses you may want to re-read, since you KNOW all and everything, which I doubt you do, since your really brainwashed here to your so-called catholic religion, which by the way honey is man-made!!! Sorry to tell you that, any organized religion is man made, and yes Jesus was before the catholic church!

We learn from the bible that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom.3:23

Our sin therefore must be removed if we are ever to experience a communion with God in this life as well as eternally in heaven.(Rom. 3:10-18, 23)

For this reason alone God sent his son Jesus into the world. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17)

If our own good works, religion, the church, or social standing could earn a place in heaven, then christ would have never had to die. (Eph. 2:8 ,9)

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man is Jesus Christ" (1 Tim. 2:5)

Shall I go on, I think I shall

"But as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the right to become the Children of God , even to those who believe in His name: who were born not of the flesh, not of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:12, 13)

Believe in your heart that God has raised Christ from the dead. (Rom. 10:9)

This is to recieve him as savior and Lord. (Rom. 10:13) For whoever Shall call on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.

Revelation 3:20, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My Voice and the opens the Door, I will come in to Him and dine with Him and he with Me." Jesus himself extends the invitation to you.

"Most Assuredly I say unto you, he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

So there you have it, in order to be saved is through Jesus Christ and this was taken from my Holy Bible my Father gave to me on my 12th birthday.

It doesn't say you will ber saved from a priest, Pope, or from Sait, but through Jesus Christ.

Mysticalzoe

[Keeblergiant]

Just when I thought you were worth talking too..
You are indeed an anti-catholic bigot.


Are you denying the fact that the Catholic church used to sell indulgences, censor knowledge they didn't agree with, and only make bibles in the non-common language so that the everyday people wouldn't have a chance to read them and find out the things Luther found out? I'm not anti-Catholic, I was just stating history.

[MoonlapseV]

Like I said earlier, whenever Vox hears something he doesn't like, he always screams anti-catholic bigot. Too bad those things that were described actually did happen, and theres no amount of justification to atone for it.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Like I said earlier, whenever Vox hears something he doesn't like, he always screams anti-catholic bigot. Too bad those things that were described actually did happen, and theres no amount of justification to atone for it.
If you read the quote you'd see that I was reacting to the deliberate foul language attack...I can fully defend the Church against this silly old claim about indulgenxces etc.....but why should I if someones going to simply mother f*&k any thing I post. You want serious discussion..post serious talk.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Yes keebler elf I deny evreything you just posted, as protestant revisionist doggeral

[Havoc Angel]

It's quite funny hearing voxysux whining about anti catholic comments while being quite the fascist when it comes to gays, protestants and muslims...

[voxpopulisuxx]

MYSTICALZOE
Im not your Honey.... honey.
All your scripture posts are fine and make your case well...IF THAT IS ALL THAT WAS WRITTEN THERE but Catholics follow the teachings OF THE WHOLE BIBLE! not just the bits we like... In matthew we read the following that proves that simple faith is NOT enough...proves it!(Matt 25-32)
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
The underlined section shows that once a person professes faith,,,they also must engage in acts of charity worthy of that faith...or their faith is dead....so faith without works is dead....So yes faith is necessary for salvation,,,,but faith alone is not sufficient (the only exception would be for someone who accepted the faith on their death bed and never had time to perform a charitable act)

[voxpopulisuxx]

fascist? Not me....intolerent of evil and its defenders , but fascism is a humanist atheistic construct...as far as Im concerned...its not a catchall for anyone who is against what they see as sin...of course precise use of language is not your forte'

[Bigsky770]

. . .No matter who started it, no reason to get quite THIS personal about it to be taking such verbal shots @ one another, no matter what a one's opinion is. . .

Let's be civil, K? Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[adroit]

What I find funny is the fact you guys are cursing at each other over such a small debate at the end of the day 98.9% of religions are man made you could say made to suit the individual. It does not dismiss the fact that it was written by man so there is no telling which is the correct religion if there is one that is…

And very correct Hitler was a Christian in some sense but he did also study the dark arts and practices there has been documented proof of this but we wont go into that discussion here...

[playmaker88]

If you read the quote you'd see that I was reacting to the deliberate foul language attack...I can fully defend the Church against this silly old claim about indulgenxces etc.....but why should I if someones going to simply mother f*&k any thing I post. You want serious discussion..post serious talk.

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I'm sure I've heard that frequently during my lifetime. Is this forgiveness optional or are you failing in your duty to God by responding in kind and often with interest?

[Keeblergiant]

What I find funny is the fact you guys are cursing at each other over such a small debate at the end of the day 98.9% of religions are man made you could say made to suit the individual.

You forgot to add in the extra 1.1%.

[voxpopulisuxx]

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I'm sure I've heard that frequently during my lifetime. Is this forgiveness optional or are you failing in your duty to God by responding in kind and often with interest?
Play maker spare me the sanctimonius bs, and read the previous posts here and in other rooms....I never say you F*%$ this and you F*& that..to them

[voxpopulisuxx]

. . .No matter who started it, no reason to get quite THIS personal about it to be taking such verbal shots @ one another, no matter what a one's opinion is. . .

Let's be civil, K? Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:
you better tell keebler elf...hes the one calling people f*%* this and F-ing that
Im more then willing to cool my jets.

[playmaker88]

Play maker spare me the sanctimonius bs, and read the previous posts here and in other rooms....I never say you F*%$ this and you F*& that..to them

Yeah, whatever. Turn the other cheek and all that. Like this...


do you want me to post the scripture or you just an ignorent pussilanimous, garellous, fecal -cepholous?


I'm sure your Christ would be well impressed?????

[voxpopulisuxx]

[QUOTE=playmaker88]Yeah, whatever. Turn the other cheek and all that. Like this...



I'm sure your Christ would be well impressed?????[/QUOTE
What about me...huh...dont cut me any slack...and if you read the post I was responding to withthat quote (which you dont care because your agenda is to bash my position regardless of whatever is said to me) maybe you would see my response was restrained...(Christ never said for us to be doormats)
Christ called the pharasees whitwashed tombs, vipers, snakes, demons, hypocrits. etc, he was more then willing to defend God with zeal...Im gonna start asking people who post in here their age because Ive found out some are High school kids...which would explain alot...how about you?
How old are you?

[DontBeAfraid]

How old would you guess lotr is? Dont try to discredit the intelligent youth who come here base on their age.

[Sammy56]

That's not fair vox. Just because someone is in High school doesn't mean they can't participate in an intelligent conversation. And what do you mean "that would explain a lot?" I'm sure their are adults on this board who are pretty stupid, it's not just the High School kids. I've enjoyed reading some of your post and I even agree with a few of your ideas, but please don't attack me because I'm not as old as you are.

[voxpopulisuxx]

That's not fair vox. Just because someone is in High school doesn't mean they can't participate in an intelligent conversation. And what do you mean "that would explain a lot?" I'm sure their are adults on this board who are pretty stupid, it's not just the High School kids. I've enjoyed reading some of your post and I even agree with a few of your ideas, but please don't attack me because I'm not as old as you are.
Im sorry It wasn't meant as an insult, nor to imply they shouldn't or couldn't participate...just seemed to explain why they were quick to use f-words and knee jerk, cliche arguments....And with all due respect a high school age kid is not going to see things the same way as a 40 year old father of 5...don't you agree?

ps ...sammy if you like some of the things i write I could sure use an encouraging word...almost every post to me is negative in some way :2thumbs: so dont be shy...post
Armageddon needs content!

[voxpopulisuxx]

How old would you guess lotr is? Dont try to discredit the intelligent youth who come here base on their age.
from the impudence i would guess 13.....Im 40...and its not about intelligence but wisdom, experience...and having a sense of proportion(which is rare in teenagers...but not unheard of)

[Keeblergiant]

Im gonna start asking people who post in here their age because Ive found out some are High school kids...which would explain alot...how about you?

17 and proud.



from the impudence i would guess 13.....Im 40...and its not about intelligence but wisdom, experience...and having a sense of proportion

It's all about intelligence.

[marglarg]

It's all about intelligence.

If not for the fact I have been on the receiving end of, how might I say, stupid remarks, I wouldn't have said anything here, but ... its not all about intelligence. Vox got it right and I guess one day, when your older you may realise this.

[Keeblergiant]

If not for the fact I have been on the receiving end of, how might I say, stupid remarks, I wouldn't have said anything here, but ... its not all about intelligence. Vox got it right and I guess one day, when your older you may realise this.

Yeah, I get out of hand sometimes. Sorry about that, Marglarg. However, I still think that it's intelligence above all.

[Sammy56]

Im gonna start asking people who post in here their age


Fine, I'm probably the youngest, 15 1/2.


It's all about intelligence.

Not necessarly. Intelligence is important, but you need a lot more. You need wisdom to allow yourself to see things in a different light. I know I am young, and that the adults on this board have more wisdom then I do, but it's not fair to say the younger members are the only ones acting badly. Look around the boards. You can see quite a few "adults" throwing insults at each other like children.

[Keeblergiant]

Fine, I'm probably the youngest, 15 1/2.

Lotrfan has you beat.

[marglarg]

Yeah, I get out of hand sometimes. Sorry about that, Marglarg. However, I still think that it's intelligence above all.

I am humbled kind sir :toast: ... your opinion is duly noted and respected.

[voxpopulisuxx]

I am humbled kind sir :toast: ... your opinion is duly noted and respected.
ask him about his keeblerelf "opinion" that he wore a tshirt that stated how pleased he was Jesus Christ was tortured and killed on the cross....

[Keeblergiant]

ask him about his keeblerelf "opinion" that he wore a tshirt that stated how pleased he was Jesus Christ was tortured and killed on the cross....

You obviously didn't read what I posted about how I didn't actually mean it and I was just trying to see what the limits of the school system were. It's not my "opinion" at all.

[playmaker88]

Im gonna start asking people who post in here their age because Ive found out some are High school kids...which would explain alot...how about you?
How old are you?

Born 10 Aug '69 as it says in my profile, I'll let you do the math, not that age is that important, I've met some very intelligent children in my time, my own son is really bright for a 4 year old. What's your point? Wisdom comes with age? Not always. Are you saying that in any debate on here a 15 year old would be wrong, while a 67 year old would be correct? How naive can you get? At what age do people have to be to earn your respect?

What a sad direction to take a discussion in. If you can't answer my viable questions, ignore them. As for "you dont care because your agenda is to bash my position regardless", from that paranoid angle we are doomed to never take a thread forward. I'm glad that you feel that your Christ would feel that your response was justified, that was basically what I wanted to gauge. It's a pity that I feel I've learnt more about you as a person due to your emotional reaction to questions than the actual rational part of the answers you've given.

If you feel I'm always out to get you, you could do worse than read my response to you in "as we are humans., he is a statue", written before this round of unpleasantries, if after reading that you still claim I have an aggressive agenda against you then I suggest you seek medical help.

[DontBeAfraid]

Im whatever age you respect the most..... But if you really want to get an idea of how old I am you will have to go through all my old posts.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Dallas sux...Eagles rule!(except when they go to the super bowl)

[playmaker88]

Dallas sux...Eagles rule!(except when they go to the super bowl)

Currently true...what the HELL as that got to do with this thread?

[voxpopulisuxx]

Currently true...what the HELL as that got to do with this thread?
to get you to lighten up dude! :2thumbs:

[evilwill]

Then I'd shudder to imagine the state we'd be in.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Then I'd shudder to imagine the state we'd be in.
wed be in a state where everyone would consider their neighbors needs before their own, were wars would be unthinkable and rare, where knowledge of Gods creation would abound,
the new world order state we live in now considers human life to be cheap and insignificant, where the rich oppress and hand over the poor to be slaughtered in their wars for power and worldy wealth....look around...we live in a state where there is nO religion...how do you like it so far...how will you like it when the rich and powerfull set off their nukes in the middle east...you should be shuddering now my friend....the futures so bright i gotta wwear shades :dead:

[evilwill]

If religion controlled everything we'd still be at war. We'd just call it the war on Islam instead of the war on Terroism.

Those that do not conform with church dogma would be persecuted and we could be likened to a totalitarian state. The church cannot do the world any good and IMO should be completely obliterated. Of course that's unlikely to happen, but one can hope.

Today's world may not be perfect... but it's the lesser of two evils.

[voxpopulisuxx]

If religion controlled everything we'd still be at war. We'd just call it the war on Islam instead of the war on Terroism.

Those that do not conform with church dogma would be persecuted and we could be likened to a totalitarian state. The church cannot do the world any good and IMO should be completely obliterated. Of course that's unlikely to happen, but one can hope.

Today's world may not be perfect... but it's the lesser of two evils.

oh dont worry your soon gonna get your wish, and youll get a nice set of jackboots, and a NWO patch to put on your spiffy new stormtrooper uniform after you volunteer to heard us christians into the concentration camps, while you worship your evolved and technologicly sophisticated superstate. And its Charismatic Leader, whom you will adore because he'll think just like you. Or better put hes trained you to think jus like him.
ANd the next time you dont think the church has done you any good...stop going to librarys, public hospitals, dont donate to orphanages (even though I doubt you do any way) dont participate in parlamentry govt, throw all your printed books away, and hope you never have to go to court because you have the church to thank for legal procedures, assumed rights of the accused, Judges, jurys get it?

[DontBeAfraid]

You credit your church with FAR too much vox. There were laws before your church. There was government long before your church. There were hostbitals before your church. Dont attribute anything even remotely scientific to your church either.... Not after the way you try to defame it.

[voxpopulisuxx]

You credit your church with FAR too much vox. There were laws before your church. There was government long before your church. There were hostbitals before your church. Dont attribute anything even remotely scientific to your church either.... Not after the way you try to defame it.
i never defamed science, i defamed its use in the theological sphere where it doesnt belong, and all I attributed to the Church is historical fact, pick any secular history book you want....and the Church was the crib of Science and medicine, any secular history book will tell you that as well, I didnt sya there were none of these things b4 the Church only that the Church was crucial in their broad application to the world and her people....and thats just cold hard fact...so stick to your evolution its what you know...

[voxpopulisuxx]

Many of the sciences derive directly from the work of a Christian or were greatly influenced at their inception by a Christian. An alphabetical listing of modern sciences and scientific laws establishes this claim.

INTRODUCTION

It may seem an outrageous claim that Christians were seminal to much of what dominates modern scientific thinking, but it is true. There is hardly a science or scientific idea which cannot trace its inception as a viable theory to some Christian. The alphabetical table below verifies this claim. A few minutes with a good encyclopedia and a few biographies will corroborate this information. The names of the Christians who influenced each science or idea are starred. Often the Christian made CLAIMS, and PREDICTIONS or developed an idea which had IMPLICATIONS for the young science. To draw attention to these claims, predictions and implications, I have capitalized the terms in the text which follows.

**********

ANESTHESIOLOGY. *Crawford Long,* one of the three Americans who discovered anesthesia became a Christian. *James Young Simpson,* who championed its use in Britain was also a professing Christian, an ardent New Presbyterian.

Asked by a reporter what was his greatest discovery, he replied, "When I learned Jesus Christ had died for my sins."

ANTISEPTIC SURGERY. First championed by the Quaker doctor *Joseph Lister* against tremendous opposition, antiseptic surgery was based directly on the theories of *Louis Pasteur.* Antiseptic surgery sought to kill germs, primarily by the use of carbolic acid.

Even in his own lifetime, Lister's innovative idea was giving way to aseptic surgery, surgery which tries to keep germs away from the wound in the first place. Joseph Lister was reared a devout Quaker and migrated to the Church of England. He reminded his pupils that they had to be prepared to give an account to God for their treatment of "the earthly tabernacle" of the soul (ie: the human body). And what of Pasteur? Although not a churchgoer, he was a Franciscan Tertiary and detested atheists and atheism. He proved the impossibility of the spontaneous generation of life.

ASSOCIATIONS FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF SCIENCE. *David Brewster*, who gave optics several of its laws, was a devout Christian, and a leader in the formation of the British Association for the Advancement of the Sciences. It was Brewster who wrote "It cannot be presumption to be SURE [of our forgiveness] because it is Christ's work, not ours; on the contrary, it is presumption to doubt his word and work."

*James Dwight Dana* was converted in a revival and lived an impeccable life thereafter. He was a leader in the American Association for the Advancement of Science as was *Josiah Willard Gibbs,* a man of quiet Christianity who showed it in conscientious work and steady churchgoing.

ASTRONOMY, MODERN. Because of the Galileo affair, it is popularily supposed that astronomy made its advances over the protests of a closed-minded, dug-in church. A closer look at the facts shows a mixed picture. This is only to be expected. Within any organization there are always some people who oppose new ideas as well as some who welcome them. Although many churchmen did oppose Galileo's ideas, many others supported them. In fact, many of those who supported and created the new learning were men of faith.

Truth to tell, the picture we now have of the universe is largely the product of Christendom. It is a fact that the names of astronomers who professed Christ read like a Who's Who of the field. Here is an alphabetical listing of some of the Christian makers of modern astronomy who have come to my attention.

*John Couch Adams* (1819-1892) shares the honor of being the first to calculate where Neptune could be found. A Wesleyan, he won college prizes for Bible studies.

*George Biddle Airy* (1801-1892), a Christ-professing churchgoer, became one of the first Astronomers Royal of Britain.

*Jean Baptiste Biot* (1774-1862) established beyond dispute the stony nature of meteorites. Late in life he returned to his childhood Roman Catholic faith.

*James Bradley* (1693-1762) trained as a Protestant chaplain but won recognition not in the field of religion but for discovering the aberration of starlight and nutation of the earth.

Whatever his actual relationship to Christ--he was an odd man-- *Nicolas Copernicus* (1473-1543), author of modern heliocentric theory, was a canon in the Catholic church.

It was another Catholic, a Jesuit, *Johann Baptist Cysat* (1586-1657) who became the first man to earn the distinction of discovering a comet through a telescope.

*Eugenio Danti* (1536-1586), a priest, made minor contributions to astronomy by inventing astronomical apparatus and assisting with reform of the Gregorian calendar.

The Quaker *Sir Arthur Eddington* (1882-1944), was an early champion of relativity theory and stayed on the cutting edge of stellar theory throughout his entire life.

Irrascible *John Flamsteed* (1646-1719) trained for the church, but made fame as first Astronomer Royal, establishing Greenwich observatory and providing Newton with essential data for his calculations. Poorly paid, he nonetheless poured his own money into new tools for the observatory. It was he who brought Greenwich to world-wide fame.

*Augustin Jean Fresnel* (1788-1827) contributed to astronomy through his studies of polarized light. He was a gentle Protestant.

Not so *Galileo Galilei* (1564-1642). His abrasive personality antagonized everyone. For all his difficulties with the church, he claimed to be a son of the faith and wrote a book showing that science and faith were not incompatible.

Francesco *Maria Grimaldi* (1618-1663), priest and scientist, in addition to systematically testing Galileo's theories, described the flattening of Saturn and discovered the diffraction of light.

*John Herschel* (1792-1871) surveyed the Southern skies as his father *William Herschel*(1738-1822) had surveyed the Northern before him. Both were at least nominally Christian although John's faith eventually ran deeper.

*William Huggins* (1824-1912) was a Christian of no specific denomination who did spectroscopic studies of stars and differentiated between gaseous nebulae and galaxies.

The faith of *Johannes Kepler* (1571-1630), first to discover the laws of planetary motion, has often been remarked. Unfortunately, he felt compelled to make a living casting horoscopes.

Not nearly so well known is the faith of *Johann Von Lamont* (1805-1879) who cataloged 12,000 previously unrecorded stars of the 7th through 10th magnitudes.

The first mathematical Big Bang theory of creation was put forth by a Belgian priest, *Georges Lemaitre* (1894-1960) who wrote "it had to have begun with light."

*Urbain LeVerrier* (1811-1871) who co-discovered Neptune was likewise a practicing Catholic.

*Nevil Maskelyne* (1732-1811) published an influential nautical almanac and measured the density of the earth to within 20%. He was a Protestant curate.

Work on double stars was pioneered by a Jesuit, *Christian Mayer* (1719-1783).

*Sir Isaac Newton* (1642-1727) wrote a million words of theology. Arian in outlook, his science was nonetheless motivated by his Christian thought.

One of the giants on whose shoulders Newton stood was the theologian *John Philoponus* (fl. 6th cent AD). Philoponus suggested (on creationist grounds) that the stars are made of the same essential matter as the earth and emit light because they burn. The different colors of stars are owing to differences of composition, he said, drawing his analogy from the differences in colors we see when we burn various substances on earth. He attributed to impetus the movement of celestial bodies (Aristotle said angels moved the planets) and argued for void (vacuum) between the stars. He was the first to suggest dropping balls of unequal weight from a tower. Galileo read and praised Philoponus.

It was a priest, *Giuseppe Piazzi* (1746-1826) who discovered the asteroid Ceres.

*Alexandre Gui Pingré* (1711-1796) made arduous voyages to observe the passages of Mercury and Venus on the sun. He became canon of Paris.

Cardinal *Johannes Regiomontanus* (1436-1476) revived the study of astronomy and mathematics in the Renaissance, preparing the way for the revolution in astronomical knowledge which began in the sixteenth century.

Other cardinals, priests, canons and monks of the Catholic church shine among astronomy's greats.

The binocular telescope was invented by a Capuchin monk, *Schyrle de Rhetia* (1597-1660).

The priest *Giambattista Riccioli* (1598-1671) made significant contributions to astronomy, geography and physics despite his opposition to Galileo.

Yet another Jesuit, *Angelo Secchi* (1818-1878) was a trailblazer in spectroscopic studies and helped define the nature of Saturn's ring.

*Johan W. J. A. Stein* (1871-1951), a Jesuit, published papers on binary stars.

Apologist Antonio Romaña attributes Christian belief also to the following influential astronomers: *Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel* (1784-1846); *Fedor Aleksandrovich Bredikhin* (1831-1904); *Harve Faye* (1814-1902); *Armand- Hippolyte-Louis Fizeau* (1819-1896); *Jean Bernard Léon Foucault* (1819-1868); *Joseph Fraunhofer* (1787-1826); *James Gregory* (1638-1675); *Alesky Pavlovich Hansky* (1870-1908); *Pierre Jules César Janssen* (1824-1907); *Johann Heinrich Madler* (1794-1874); *Heinrich Wilhelm Matthias Olbers* (1758-1840) and *Giovanni Virginio Schiaparelli* (1835-1910).
just to name a few VOX ...source http://www.rae.org/influsci.html Author: .Daniel Graves

[DontBeAfraid]

SO find me a secular source for all those claims now.

[Keeblergiant]

There's no need for a secular source...99% of the people he listed lived during a time period where you were persecuted by society for not being Christian. He's forgetting that the truly revolutionary ideas in physics were all put forwards but agnostics (like Einstein) or Atheists (like Dirac and Feynman). In fact, statistics show that 67% of people who hold a Ph.D. in some sort of physics are atheists. His point is invalid. Oh, and did you notice on his list that a priest put forth the idea of the big bang theory? Rather ironic, considering what Vox is arguing...

[DontBeAfraid]

I didnt know hawkings was a priest..... jk. I did notice which is why I'm calling for a secualr source. I know the contraversy of this particualr incident but his source fails to mention it which would then make the rest of the list suspect. It also misrepresents galileo and the does not give proper credit for the theory of relativety.... Christians are again trying to rewrite history.

[voxpopulisuxx]

its not the complete list...the rest of the article is at the link...go there...stop poisoning the well.....it is you who misrepresent the Galileo controversy...but it wouldn't be the first time factual evidence was ignored in order to protect a beloved bigotry.

[evilwill]

Believe it or not, not all christians think like you vox. There are some out there that think logically and were/are intelligent people. Just because they were of a christian faith, doesn't mean their work can be claimed by the church.

Also, enough of your NWO bullshit. I worship nothing and never will. We don't need a NWO anyway.

I've got no intention of joining the military either. Funny how you talk about brainwashing... sounds like something the church loves doing via bombarding people with doctrine.

[voxpopulisuxx]

none the less the nwo is here ans coming to power and your HOPE that religion be eradicated will come to pass and you will volunteer to do it...your the one who posted your HOPES.....scroll up

[evilwill]

Whilst I detest all that is religion, I have no desire to slaughter millions of people. I'm fine with religion being eradicated, but I'm not prepared to put in the effort.

And what NWO? You can't be refering to Bush since he's a right wing, christian nut case.

[dutchie]

Voxx, your list is plain laughable. There is not one society that did more to criticize, excommunicate or plain slaughter off scientists that
- questioned the terracentric universe;
- questioned the flat earth;
- questioned the seven day creation;
(I could go on ad nauseam)
than the catholic church. Denial of this fact is just closing your eyes to reality. Now I am not against the catholic church as such - heck, I do not oppose any church or faith. People have a right to think or believe anything they want. But throughout this thread (which I took the trouble to read all over again) it has become clear that you have trouble dealing with opposing views. You do them away as coming from lack of intelligence, lack of experience, lack of wisdom. Now I am 47 years old. In your mind I should be wiser than you. Well, my wisdom only shows me that wisdom does not come with age alone. You need to be willing to think, to become wise. But more than that, you need to be willing to listen to become wise.

Now please tell me I too am a sanctimonious old fart, then I'll have a good laugh on a monday morning!

[voxpopulisuxx]

Whilst I detest all that is religion, I have no desire to slaughter millions of people. I'm fine with religion being eradicated, but I'm not prepared to put in the effort.

And what NWO? You can't be refering to Bush since he's a right wing, christian nut case.
I suggest you refer this question about Bush to metal militia, George Bush is the very midwife for the Birth of this NWO that is operating already but not yet openly, Give Bush and his zionists time.

as far as putting in the effort to eradicate religion, you may not be willing but you will endorse your tax dollars going to this cause, that will make you just as complicit.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Voxx, your list is plain laughable. There is not one society that did more to criticize, excommunicate or plain slaughter off scientists that
- questioned the terracentric universe;
- questioned the flat earth;
- questioned the seven day creation;
(I could go on ad nauseam)
than the catholic church. Denial of this fact is just closing your eyes to reality. Now I am not against the catholic church as such - heck, I do not oppose any church or faith. People have a right to think or believe anything they want. But throughout this thread (which I took the trouble to read all over again) it has become clear that you have trouble dealing with opposing views. You do them away as coming from lack of intelligence, lack of experience, lack of wisdom. Now I am 47 years old. In your mind I should be wiser than you. Well, my wisdom only shows me that wisdom does not come with age alone. You need to be willing to think, to become wise. But more than that, you need to be willing to listen to become wise.

Now please tell me I too am a sanctimonious old fart, then I'll have a good laugh on a monday morning!
your so old you fart I love Lucy Shows...lol

[evilwill]

I suggest you refer this question about Bush to metal militia, George Bush is the very midwife for the Birth of this NWO that is operating already but not yet openly, Give Bush and his zionists time.

as far as putting in the effort to eradicate religion, you may not be willing but you will endorse your tax dollars going to this cause, that will make you just as complicit.

I don't see Bush endorsing the eradication of religion, he seems quite the fundamentalist. Anyway, he'd lose a lot of his support if he took on an anti-christian stance.

And I'm not American, so my tax $ will not be contributing to Bush's so called NWO.

[voxpopulisuxx]

I don't see Bush endorsing the eradication of religion, he seems quite the fundamentalist. Anyway, he'd lose a lot of his support if he took on an anti-christian stance.

And I'm not American, so my tax $ will not be contributing to Bush's so called NWO.
bush is just another who figured out how to play phoney christians by being a phoney christian...bush is no more christian than Judas. ANd I sincerely mean that!

[evilwill]

I won't dispute that. Bush doesn't strike me as being a devout christian, even though he may act like one. I'd say it's all about the votes, that's all.

[dutchie]

your so old you fart I love Lucy Shows...lol
It's refreshing to see you just took it upon you to scorn only the very last sentence of my post - which was indeed meant to be TIC - and omitted to rebut the rest of it. My compliments. Your wisdom is great. :Bow:

[Antony]

The catholic church may have opposed Hitler, but Hitler himself was still religiously motivated.
Adolph Hitler Was a satanist. A member of the thule society.Aryan sun worshipers.The swastika can be traced back as far as 2,000 b.c.Used by the druids [witches] in a triangle.To the cult jews were considered opposite of the sun.Crazy. I would have to check back but i recall americans were stunned when the pope blessed Hitler and Mussolini, and cursed the U.S.I still remember as a boy

[dutchie]

The swastika had nothing to do with druids or witches. Here's is the entry from Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 99:

Swastika, an even cross, the arms of which are bent at right angles. Since all four bars point in the same direction (either clockwise or counterclockwise), the form creates an impression of perpetual rotation.

The origin of the swastika symbol is unknown. For thousands of years, it has been used as a symbol of the revolving sun, fire, infinity, or continuing re-creation, as well as a decorative motif in the Americas, China, Egypt, Greece, and Scandinavia. Swastikas have been found in the catacombs of Rome, on textiles of the Inca period, and on relics unearthed at the site of Troy. The swastika has also been important in Eastern religions: to Buddhists, it represents resignation; to Jains, it represents their seventh saint; and to Hindus, a swastika with arms bent to the left represents night, magic, and the destructive goddess Kali.

In the mid-20th century in Germany, a swastika with arms bent to the right became the symbol of the Nazi party (see National Socialism). Some members of the German Free Corps, who later formed the nucleus of the early Nazi Party, are believed to have brought the swastika to Germany from Finland and Estonia, where it had been an official and decorative emblem. In 1920 many troops wore the swastika on their helmets when they occupied Berlin in their abortive attempt to overthrow the German Republic.

From March 1933, a few weeks after the ascent of Adolf Hitler to power in Germany, the swastika flag flew side by side with the German national colors. From September 1935 until the downfall of the Nazi regime in 1945, the swastika flag was the official flag of the Third Reich and was prominently displayed. The swastika is still used as a symbol by supremacist and separatist hate groups.

[voxpopulisuxx]

It's refreshing to see you just took it upon you to scorn only the very last sentence of my post - which was indeed meant to be TIC - and omitted to rebut the rest of it. My compliments. Your wisdom is great. :Bow:
it wasn't scorn just a joke at your expense....secondly far be it from me to comment when someone wants to let off steam and rant maniacal, I try not to comment on emotional sputterings...but Im glad you recognisee my wisdom finally.

[voxpopulisuxx]

I won't dispute that. Bush doesn't strike me as being a devout christian, even though he may act like one. I'd say it's all about the votes, that's all.
then its a blessed day because you and I have found common ground! :headbang:

[voxpopulisuxx]

Adolph Hitler Was a satanist. A member of the thule society.Aryan sun worshipers.The swastika can be traced back as far as 2,000 b.c.Used by the druids [witches] in a triangle.To the cult jews were considered opposite of the sun.Crazy. I would have to check back but i recall americans were stunned when the pope blessed Hitler and Mussolini, and cursed the U.S.I still remember as a boy
I demand you show me when The Pope blessed Hitler and Mussolini!!!