Johanns Paulus Pontifex Maximus

[Skippy]

Reports are coming out that the Holy See has received Last Rites. It used to be that Last Rites were given within a certain number of hours of death, however, these days the Sacrament can be given at any time if there is no chance that the individual with recover conciousness. This leads me to believe that the Pope will be dead within a few days, if not any moment now. Vox? you got the latest on this?

Thus.....the Propecies of St. Malachi.....the next pope is to be the last. Any thoughts on this? Who will be chosen next?

[Bigsky770]

. . .But I'm watching the news now. They're saying at first the reports of "Extreme Unction" being administered were coming from the Italian News Services, then it was coming from "Church" sources, so it may be credible. Also reported was that he is on a regimen of antibiotics, is suffering from a VERY high fever (and this after the intro. of a naso-tube makes me believe he may be suffering from asepticemia/where tube-feed may have somehow entered his lungs) and a low-blood-pressure, though didn't give a systolic (or) diastolic reading (upper and lower no.'s) which could indicate how serious. The Italian Police HAVE blocked-off the frontal area of the Vatican, which is highly unusual. Crowd of visitors numbers (now) have been placed at around 500.

Joe (Bigsky770)

[Skippy]

I agree Joe....this is happening by the minute. But, I can't help but think that the feeding tube was inserted more to show support for Terri Shiavo than for the Pope's health since he already has a hole in his neck.

[Bigsky770]

Originally posted by Skippy
I agree Joe....this is happening by the minute. But, I can't help but think that the feeding tube was inserted more to show support for Terri Shiavo than for the Pope's health since he already has a hole in his neck.

. . .Actually, Skippy, I think it more a 'coincidence' although a strange and ironic one at that. I was surprised (myself) that they didn't insert a Naso-Gastro (n.g.) tube right after they performed the trach. You see, after one undergoes a "Tracheotomy", oftentimes there are such problems with swallowing and choking that this is done concordant; That they performed the n.g. tube this much time AFTER he received the trach, also tells me that very recently he may have choked upon food that then entered his lungs, asepticemia sets-in from this, and then he would suffer from the "fever" condition as the temperature elevates from infection (again, the asepticemia) which explains the use of the antibiotics. I know before I said it may have been tube-feed into the lungs, though it could explain why they are taking these measures now 'cause it could've also been the food. They are just not saying right now/anywho, perhaps they'll say later. . .

Joe (Bigsky770)

[Skippy]

. . .Actually, Skippy, I think it more a 'coincidence' although a strange and ironic one at that. I was surprised (myself) that they didn't insert a Naso-Gastro (n.g.) tube right after they performed the trach. You see, after one undergoes a "Tracheotomy", oftentimes there are such problems with swallowing and choking that this is done concordant; That they performed the n.g. tube this much time AFTER he received the trach, also tells me that very recently he may have choked upon food that then entered his lungs, asepticemia sets-in from this, and then he would suffer from the "fever" condition as the temperature elevates from infection (again, the asepticemia) which explains the use of the antibiotics. I know before I said it may have been tube-feed into the lungs, though it could explain why they are taking these measures now 'cause it could've also been the food. They are just not saying right now/anywho, perhaps they'll say later. . .

Joe (Bigsky770)


Didn't know that about trachs...so perhaps they were using a feeding tube privately and only went public with it when the Shiavo thing became really big news. But, I also agree that there is more going on at the Vatican than we are being told.....like how the real Pope has been dead for a few months and what we keep seeing is a Muppet.....if it looks like a Muppet, talks like a Muppet, moves like a Muppet, who are we to question Jim Henson. :)

Trivai....Jim Henson was left-handed...so too were all the muppets.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Unction is given at any time there is a clear danger to a persons life, theres no necessary time frame only that the person is in emminent danger. Thus healthy soldiers get it before entering combat...also it can be adminstered up to 1 hour post mortem based on the fact that no one can say for certainty at what point the soul relinquishes the body...only that it does relinquish it soon after respiration ceases...the bible says absent from the body present with the Lord, but when does the soul abandon the body?

[Zyztem]

Didn't know that about trachs...so perhaps they were using a feeding tube privately and only went public with it when the Shiavo thing became really big news. But, I also agree that there is more going on at the Vatican than we are being told.....like how the real Pope has been dead for a few months and what we keep seeing is a Muppet.....if it looks like a Muppet, talks like a Muppet, moves like a Muppet, who are we to question Jim Henson. :)

Trivai....Jim Henson was left-handed...so too were all the muppets.

So was another JH. Well, Jimi Hendrix played left handed anyways.

Joe, you have a medical background? They say his fever is coming from a raging urinary tract infection. Possible cathaterization?

[Bigsky770]

. . .For longer than I care to recount. Please understand, Zyztem, I am only speculating upon what MAY have occurred given that I've seen these circumstances before. The Urinary Tract Infection (in the field they just refer to them as U.T.I's) could have been in part exacerbated by his already decreased fluid intake as doubtless he would have difficulty swallowing (with the trach/ but also characteristic of patients who suffer from Parkinson's, which he has been diagnosed with) and probably to/also suffering from dehydration in lieu of that same difficulty, along with decreased urinary output. The Foley-cath? yah, that makes sense as they would want to monitor better his output, and also to test specimens. The n.g. tube will help not only with feeding, but also assist hydration & medication, although they probably (for the short-term) hydrated him via I.V. fluids. No doubt he's also had bloodwork, and they confirmed infection with elevated white-bloodcell counts. . .

. . .Skippy, (really) no, I don't see eye-to-eye with the pope's beliefs but I believe him an honourable man. I don't believe it's a case of trying to steer public-opinion in this matter, (read n.g. tube here) as Shiavo's. I do believe that they are being very careful though in what information they release. I understand now from the news that although he is quite ill at the moment, they are telling that he is beginning to show positive effects from the use of antibiotics, so he may weather this yet. . .He's one tough cookie!

Joe (Bigsky770)

[Bigsky770]

. . .Things are more serious then I had previously thought, just heard an announcement that "The Pope" had suffered cardio-circulatory collapse, mild heart attack and shock/although they also state that he is (as of this moment) still awake and alert, this certainly doesn't bode well for him. . .

LINK for news from CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/01/pope1/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

. . .Though the Vatican is denying he had a "heart attack". . .

Joe (Bigsky770)

[dutchie]

. . .Skippy, (really) no, I don't see eye-to-eye with the pope's beliefs but I believe him an honourable man

Well, I don't!! A man that prohibits the use of condoms in countries where half the population is suffering from AIDS, is IMO comparable to a genocidal maniac, blinded by dogmatics and deaf to the crying of the African children that lost their parents, because they decided to stick to the teachings of this old man...

Sorry, vox - but that is how I feel about it.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Well, I don't!! A man that prohibits the use of condoms in countries where half the population is suffering from AIDS, is IMO comparable to a genocidal maniac, blinded by dogmatics and deaf to the crying of the African children that lost their parents, because they decided to stick to the teachings of this old man...

Sorry, vox - but that is how I feel about it.
you apparently suffer from a deplorable lack of proprtion...and Im sorry you "feel" that way too, I wish you would think once and a while, and not simply act on your hystarical emotions...genocide please.... give me a break.

[voxpopulisuxx]

and its not John Pauls teachings, (you dont seem to have a problem with Marxs teachings, which have decidedly, objectively brought considerable genocide to the world)...its the teachings of the Church he leads, so by extention you are saying Catholicism is genocidal, which leads me to assume your type wont be happy till genocide is committed against Catholics, IMO.....Im sorry thats just what I THINK.

[dcookcan]

RIP

Unconfirmed reports from Italian news sources suggest that the pope has died. If so - RIP John.

[Coolio]

indeed, RIP.

[Strife]

As long as the man helped humanity as much as he could, he deserves my respect.

R.I.P.

[dcookcan]

Reports of his death may be bogus. Apparently he has made a flurry of Cardinal appointments today and has accepted several resignations.

Perhaps this is going to be another case like Arafat, where rumours of death will fly around only to be rejected by the vatican. Oh well, it seems his death is imminent (as it is for all of us; just a little more so for him).

I don't want to cause any rumours, so I will not post again about rumours of the Pope's death.

Awaiting official notice.

[Skippy]

Reports of his death may be bogus. Apparently he has made a flurry of Cardinal appointments today and has accepted several resignations.

Perhaps this is going to be another case like Arafat, where rumours of death will fly around only to be rejected by the vatican. Oh well, it seems his death is imminent (as it is for all of us; just a little more so for him).

I don't want to cause any rumours, so I will not post again about rumours of the Pope's death.

Awaiting official notice.


We keep getting live shots of the Vatican on the news. If I remember correctly, as long as the lights are on in his apartment he continues to live, when they turn off the lights it is a symbol of his death. So it appears the he continues to live at this time.

[redmamma]

Don't know if it's true, but Israel Net daily is also reporting the pope's death:

http://www.israelnetdaily.com/


BTW...this site lists the procedures of what happens upon the pope's death:

http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/election.asp

They also have some info on the prophesies of Malachy, and seem to favor that there are two popes after John Paul II, and not one before the end.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

[dutchie]

and its not John Pauls teachings, (you dont seem to have a problem with Marxs teachings, which have decidedly, objectively brought considerable genocide to the world)...its the teachings of the Church he leads, so by extention you are saying Catholicism is genocidal, which leads me to assume your type wont be happy till genocide is committed against Catholics, IMO.....Im sorry thats just what I THINK.
HAHAHA!!! You crack me up, Vox, honestly... Talk about reacting on emotions...
..but I am satisfied you at least didn't DENY the catholic church i.c. the pope (who IS the boss, isn't he?!?) prohibits the use of condoms, even in Africa...

No, I do not seek genocide of all catholics: I'm a peace loving man. BTW, with teachings like that, they will do it to themself. (funny, I always thought the rc church was not to keen on suicide either...)

[10 uh c]

I seen a news clip Friday night of a Cardinal speaking of the Pope. He used all past tense terms when refering to him. He was, It was, I think He may have already passed before Firday night.

[voxpopulisuxx]

HAHAHA!!! You crack me up, Vox, honestly... Talk about reacting on emotions...
..but I am satisfied you at least didn't DENY the catholic church i.c. the pope (who IS the boss, isn't he?!?) prohibits the use of condoms, even in Africa...

No, I do not seek genocide of all catholics: I'm a peace loving man. BTW, with teachings like that, they will do it to themself. (funny, I always thought the rc church was not to keen on suicide either...)
Yes lets talk about reacting to YOUR emotions, I wrote what I wrote with clear unemotional intent. To call the leader of the Faith of Christ genocidal is to assume yourself the role of Judge and further executioner, no emotion at all, to despise the teaching against condoms, is to despise truth, because the truth is the use of contraception is intrinsically evil, and harms both the user and society. So laugh it up dutch-boy. Maybe you can wear a body sized flame resistant condom when you die, you might need it.
Why would I deny a clear and truthfull teaching? Condomns are a sign of sick society. And the old "even in Africa" statement outs your subliminally racist veiw of africans...but the dutch always were like that (sarcasm).

[dutchie]

Yes lets talk about reacting to YOUR emotions, I wrote what I wrote with clear unemotional intent. To call the leader of the Faith of Christ genocidal is to assume yourself the role of Judge and further executioner, no emotion at all, to despise the teaching against condoms, is to despise truth, because the truth is the use of contraception is intrinsically evil, and harms both the user and society. So laugh it up dutch-boy. Maybe you can wear a body sized flame resistant condom when you die, you might need it.
Why would I deny a clear and truthfull teaching? Condomns are a sign of sick society. And the old "even in Africa" statement outs your subliminally racist veiw of africans...but the dutch always were like that (sarcasm).
Vox, Vox, Vox.... You just can't let go, can you? TRUTH - as you see it!!! How do you and your wife (assuming you have one) go about birth control? The pill? Isn't that the same thing (contraception) in a different package? You're a hypocrite, and a liar. Calling me - and the Dutch people as a whole racist... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Is it weren't so funny, I would get mad at you. You're a sad, blind zealot. And not only that, you're not too clever either. I am done talking to you. There is no hope for people like you ever to wake up again, and in that I pity you. You don't give a rats ass about the millions of people in Africa (reason I mentioned it..) that are about to die because our stinking rich world denies them cheap medication. You don't care that they GET Aids because they desperately try to uphold the catholic "truths". So who's the racist here? Bah.
BTW, thanks for calling me dutch-boy. At 47 I needed that. Makes me feel all young and vigorous again, ready to eat hypocrites like you raw for breakfast.

[DontBeAfraid]

preventing unwanted pregnancy is evil? Preventing the spread of STD's is evil? Planning for the future is evil? Vox you are an idiot.

[Holy-Paladin01]

Vox, Vox, Vox.... You just can't let go, can you? TRUTH - as you see it!!! How do you and your wife (assuming you have one) go about birth control? The pill? Isn't that the same thing (contraception) in a different package? You're a hypocrite, and a liar. Calling me - and the Dutch people as a whole racist... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Is it weren't so funny, I would get mad at you. You're a sad, blind zealot. And not only that, you're not too clever either. I am done talking to you. There is no hope for people like you ever to wake up again, and in that I pity you. You don't give a rats ass about the millions of people in Africa (reason I mentioned it..) that are about to die because our stinking rich world denies them cheap medication. You don't care that they GET Aids because they desperately try to uphold the catholic "truths". So who's the racist here? Bah.
BTW, thanks for calling me dutch-boy. At 47 I needed that. Makes me feel all young and vigorous again, ready to eat hypocrites like you raw for breakfast.
I dont remeber and cant find anywhere where vox said anything about his wife and him using the pill or any contraception,...if Im not mistaken his one post suggests he has 5 children...alot of orthodox catholics have large familys...they dont practice contraception...but abstain...that what Ive heard about...you dutchi have taken too much credit....and it seems to me that its you who dont want more africans around...why so the dutch will have more wealth? you dont seem to deny vox's "racist" charge...hmmmmmmmm

[Holy-Paladin01]

preventing unwanted pregnancy is evil? Preventing the spread of STD's is evil? Planning for the future is evil? Vox you are an idiot.
no having sex just for pleasure is evil, if you dont want kids dont have sex...so simple only degenerates could miss it. std are caused by the selfish practice of sex for pleasure...again so simple only a degenerate could miss it...Planning for the future? What kind of future is it when all we have are a bunch of kidless, self serving sex addicted degenerates around...you call that future planning???

[evilwill]

Bah, and here is the brainwashed dribble.


no having sex just for pleasure is evil, if you dont want kids dont have sex...

And why is that? What is so evil about sex? It's a method of reproduction, but that doesn't mean that's all. In this world of bullshit, there are few things that people can enjoy. Sex is one of them, why take it away from them?

Tell me one good reason why we shouldn't have sex for fun. And I want a logical reason, not some religious crap about morality.


std are caused by the selfish practice of sex for pleasure

Now that has got to be one of the misguided things I have ever heard. Diseases are caused by the human intention to have sex for pleasure instead of reproduction? It just came into existence the minute such an act was committed?

You can't honestly believe that...

Perhaps you never thought of this, but not everyone wants kids. Think about it.

[evilwill]

Yes lets talk about reacting to YOUR emotions, I wrote what I wrote with clear unemotional intent. To call the leader of the Faith of Christ genocidal is to assume yourself the role of Judge and further executioner, no emotion at all, to despise the teaching against condoms, is to despise truth, because the truth is the use of contraception is intrinsically evil, and harms both the user and society. So laugh it up dutch-boy. Maybe you can wear a body sized flame resistant condom when you die, you might need it.
Why would I deny a clear and truthfull teaching? Condomns are a sign of sick society. And the old "even in Africa" statement outs your subliminally racist veiw of africans...but the dutch always were like that (sarcasm).

The truth is that the catholic opinion of contraception labels them evil. Your opinion is not truth, merely a perspective. If anything, contraception protects the user.

The even in Africa comment refers to the large amount of the population that get aids and have far too many kids than they can provide for, all because the catholic missionaries tell them that contraception is evil. So the catholics are ignoring the well being of these people and allowing them to die thanks to their ignorant beliefs.

[Skippy]

They also have some info on the prophesies of Malachy, and seem to favor that there are two popes after John Paul II, and not one before the end.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp


I'm pasting an article below that offers some potential candidates. I've always seen the prophecy number 111 popes, and I am wondering if the 112th was added later to prevent panic or specualtion. So can anyone find "Gloria olivae" in the list below?

Gloria:(s) (pl.=ae) glory, fame, renown, praise, honour
olivae: (s =a) (pl.) olives

Thus we are seeking Glory of the Olives?

------------------------------------
Apr. 3, 2005. 09:59 AM
No clear successor to John Paul

BY BRIAN MURPHY
ASSOCIATED PRESS


VATICAN CITY (AP) — Roman Catholic leaders began to speak out today about their hopes and expectations for a new leader as the intense guessing game began over who would succeed Pope John Paul.

Only one thing is certain: the cardinals must decide whether to follow John Paul with another non-Italian or hand the papacy back to its traditional caretakers.

Bernard Cardinal Panafieu, one of five French prelates with a papal vote, said today he was hoping for someone "who dynamizes the people — God's people — as John Paul II did. At the same time, a man who has an international sense, of the opening of Catholicism to the world. An open man and at the same time, a man faithful to the great traditions of the Church."

The Polish-born John Paul was the first non-Italian pope in 455 years and brought a new vitality to the Vatican, challenging parochial attitudes throughout the church. One view — echoed from outside Roman Catholicism by Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu — holds that the papal electors will want to maintain the spirit by recognizing the Roman Catholic influence outside Europe in Latin America and Africa.

"We hope that perhaps the cardinals when they meet will follow the first non-Italian pope by electing the first African pope," Tutu said from Cape Town, South Africa.

Another theory suggests that the Italians will press to reclaim the papacy after John Paul's 26-year reign — the third-longest in history.

There is no clear favourite when the 117 cardinals begin their secret conclave later this month.

But names often mentioned as "papabile" — the Italian word for possible papal candidates — include Francis Cardinal Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian, and Brazilian Claudio Cardinal Hummes.

Arinze, 72, converted to Roman Catholicism as a child and shares some of John Paul's conservative views on contraception and family issues. But he brings a unique element: representing a nation shared between Muslims and Christians at the time when interfaith relations assume growing urgency. If elected, he would be the first black pope of modern times.

Hummes, 70, is archbishop of Sao Paolo, Brazil, and urges more attention to fighting poverty and the effects of a globalized economies. His supporters note that Brazil's role as a Latin American political and economic heavyweight could help the Vatican counter the popularity of emerging evangelical churches in the region.

Oscar Andres Cardinal Rodiguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the 62-year-old archbishop of Tegucigalpa, is also mentioned as a possible candidate. But he could be too much of a break for Vatican conservatives. He has studied clinical psychology and has a dynamic, outspoken style.

Among Italians, Dionigi Cardinal Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan, is a moderate with natural pastoral abilities and an easy style that appeals to the young. But Tettamanzi, 71, is not considered widely travelled and some critics believe he could impose too strong an Italian outlook.

Other Italians widely mentioned as possible candidates include: Angelo Cardinal Scola of Venice, 63, who is relatively young and brings a cosmopolitan flair from his city, a historic cultural crossroads; and Giovanni Battista Re, 71, who has served as president of the Vatican commission for Latin America since 2001.

Within Europe, several cardinals are seen as possible rising stars, potentially able to win support in the way Karol Wojtyla, then archbishop of Krakow, Poland, did in the 1978 conclave that elevated him to pope. They include: Christoph Cardinal Schoenborn, the 69-year-old archbishop of Vienna, Austria, who is multilingual and has diplomatic flair, and Belgian Godfried Cardinal Danneels, 71, who is well known in political and diplomatic circles.

Philippe Cardinal Barbarin, another French elector, said Sunday he hoped for a powerful figure to follow John Paul.

"When you see his face, and when you hear him speak, you should have the impression like that made by the arrival of John Paul II in October 1978: `Wow, here you can see Christ come among us'," Barbarin said in an interview with radio network France Inter.

Europe has the biggest bloc with 58 papal electors — cardinals under 80 years old. Italy alone has 20. Canada has three.

Latin America has 21 and Africa brings 11. The United States also has 11 cardinals and could sway the voting if they remain united. An American pope, however, is considered a virtual impossibility because of the Vatican would avoid such a deep and complicated association with the world's sole superpower.

Any other forecast would find itself on shaky ground.

One only has to recall that after two days and eight rounds of voting 26 years ago, the name of Karol Wojtyla — never mentioned as a serious candidate — was announced to the crowd in St. Peter's Square. Many there were baffled.

09:19ET 03-04-05

[voxpopulisuxx]

as a Catholic I hold simply to this, God chooses Popes the Church deserves, all this speculation has no baring on the outcome, the political wrangling is moot, God has already chosen, that is who we will get. As the majority of the electing cardnals are flaming liberals, I doubt to see the Glory of the Olives, if you hold the prohecies of St. Malichi as infallable, or set in stone....I do not...While I hold out hope for another Pius or Peter, I am resigned to the fact the next Pope might be another Judus Iscariot.But the Holy Spirit will never fail the faithfull...

[voxpopulisuxx]

The truth is that the catholic opinion of contraception labels them evil. Your opinion is not truth, merely a perspective. If anything, contraception protects the user.

The even in Africa comment refers to the large amount of the population that get aids and have far too many kids than they can provide for, all because the catholic missionaries tell them that contraception is evil. So the catholics are ignoring the well being of these people and allowing them to die thanks to their ignorant beliefs.
Im always amazed at the arrogence of people especially white people who think themselves worthy to Judge who has too many kids....contraception makes users it doesnt just protect them...users of others who see others as mere instruments for their pleasure taking, std are spred by promiscous sex at least inititally, the fact that the curse the selfish self indulgent "users" has entered into the general populus does not now make promiscuity a good thing, contraception is not a device it is a mindset that says pleasure in all its forms is the highest good...pigs think as much.

[Bigsky770]

. . .I'm curious to see which way this goes. Here's a listing of the "Top Contenders" for the Throne. . .

Who Will Be the Next Pope?
While few Vatican officials dare speak of a successor to the ailing John Paul II, several potential candidates have emerged. Having appointed all but 16 of the 123 members of the College of Cardinals, John Paul II has almost guaranteed that his successor will share his conservative philosophy. Some Vatican observers, however, predict the election of a candidate with more progressive views in order to mend the schism between liberal and orthodox Catholics.

Nationality may be another important consideration in the papal succession. The Polish John Paul II broke the Italians' near-500-year lock on the papacy, and growing Catholic populations in the Third World may focus attention beyond not only Italy but even Europe.

The consensus among speculators is that there is no likely American candidate, and an older cardinal -- who would serve a shorter term than John Paul's -- appears to be a probable choice. Here's a look at some of the possible candidates, from the leading contenders to the long shots:



Camillo Ruini
Age: 68
Ruini is vicar general of the Rome diocese and president of the Italian Episcopal Conference. Appointed cardinal in 1991, he is a conservative who may still be able to appease liberal factions.

Jan Schotte
Age: 70
Having kept close contact with many cardinals from around the world in his role as secretary-general of the Synod of Bishops, this Belgian has diplomatic ties that improve his chances for the papacy.

Lucas Moreira Neves
Age: 73
A Brazilian strongly in favor of celibacy in the priesthood, and a firm opponent of birth control, Neves is touted as the pope's preferred successor. He was recently brought from Brazil to head the Vatican's Congregation for Bishops. Neves is well versed in the Curia, the Vatican bureaucracy, but is rumored to have health problems.

Dionigi Tettamanzi
Age: 65
The archbishop of Genoa is highly favored in Italy. Elevated to cardinal in 1998, Tettamanzi is another relatively new member of the Sacred College. He is regarded as a moderate who may be able to mediate between liberals and conservatives.

Francis Arinze
Age: 66
The Nigerian cardinal, a leading church figure in Africa, is a close friend of the pope's and has performed a crucial role in improving the Vatican's dialogue with Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu groups. His conservative theological orientation fits in well with the current Vatican climate.

Pio Laghi
Age: 76
Born in Forli, Italy, Laghi is prefect of the Congregation for Education in Rome. He is an experienced diplomat and was an apostolic delegate in Jerusalem and Palestine. Laghi is noted for his gentleness and compassion, though his lack of experience as a pastor may hurt his odds.

Christoph Schoenborn
Age: 54
The archbishop of Vienna and a highly respected theologian, Schoenborn was appointed to the College of Cardinals in 1998. Born in Czechoslovakia, he moved with his family to Austria while he was still young. Schoenborn was charged by the pope with the task of preparing the church's new catechism, but his chances may be hampered by his relative youth.

Bernardin Gantin
Age: 77
A close friend of the pope's, Gantin is another Vatican insider. He is prefect for the Congregation of Bishops and dean of the College of Cardinals. He was born in Benin, Africa, and, like Arinze, may find his chances diminished by his non-European origin.

Joseph Ratzinger
Age: 72
The vice-dean of the College of Cardinals is German-born and was once archbishop of Munich. Known as "the Panzer Cardinal," the conservative Ratzinger is powerful in the Vatican but may be too close to the pope for the cardinals' taste.

Carlo Maria Martini
Age: 72
Archbishop of Milan since 1979, Martini is more liberal than John Paul II on issues such as contraception and the role of women in the church. His odds for the papacy are lengthened by his membership in the elitist Jesuit order, which has been viewed with longstanding mistrust by the greater church.

The rest of the story @ this LINK:
http://www.time.com/time/daily/special/papacy/succession.html

- - -Submitted by Joe (Bigsky770)

[voxpopulisuxx]

The Holy Spirit gives the Church the Pope it deserves, My hope is for another Pius or Peter,my gut tells me well get a Judus Iscariot

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Im always amazed at the arrogence of people especially white people who think themselves worthy to Judge who has too many kids....
There's definitely no arrogance here at all, Vox. Nobody's judging anybody. Evilwill is simply pointing out the undeniable fact that there are far more people in Africa than can be sustained. That's an obvious fact that NOBODY can deny. He's just saying that, despite the horrible famine and suffering that is going on there, Africans keep having kids irresponsibly. They are bringing babies into a HORRIBLE world where, if they don't die, they will DEFINITELY suffer tremendously. They would be better off reducing their reproductive rate, otherwise the vicious cycle of famine and suffering will continue.


....contraception makes users it doesnt just protect them...users of others who see others as mere instruments for their pleasure taking,
This statement is very offensive to me, Vox. My wife and I have been married for over 10 years now and we have NOT wanted kids until recently. I certainly DON'T consider my wife to be an "instrument for my pleasure taking". I used condoms for 10 years because we didn't want to have kids when we weren't ready. That's called being responsible and planning for our future. Your statement implies that myself and my wife are evil and that we are no better than "pigs" for having sex with a condom and that's just downright offensive and ignorant. This is one of the most childishly ignorant things that I have heard ANYONE say on ANY of these threads and I'm very surprised and disappointed that it came from you, Vox.


Planning for the future? What kind of future is it when all we have are a bunch of kidless, self serving sex addicted degenerates around...you call that future planning???
Yes, planning for the future like I explained above. Simple.


Condomns are a sign of sick society.
Condoms are not the CAUSE of the problem, they are a REACTION to the problem. Condoms PREVENT the spread of AIDS and STD's. Condoms PREVENT unwanted pregnancies. If more Africans would use condoms, then the birthrate would go down, thus alleviating some of the famine and disease that are currently running rampant there as a result of overpopulation. But Christianity tells them that condoms are evil and this serves only to increase an already overpopulated continent, thus causing more starvation, disease and death. Ironically, as I'm typing this, there is a commercial on television for the "Christians Children's Fund of Canada" and all I see are starving children and horrendous living conditions. Christianity's stance against condoms is clearly destructive for these suffering people. I'm absolutely DISGUSTED that ANY of you would disagree with this. A sick society indeed...

P.S. - To Vox and others who have responded on this thread, have YOU ever used a condom before? Be honest...

[voxpopulisuxx]

There's definitely no arrogance here at all, Vox. Nobody's judging anybody. Evilwill is simply pointing out the undeniable fact that there are far more people in Africa than can be sustained. That's an obvious fact that NOBODY can deny. He's just saying that, despite the horrible famine and suffering that is going on there, Africans keep having kids irresponsibly. They are bringing babies into a HORRIBLE world where, if they don't die, they will DEFINITELY suffer tremendously. They would be better off reducing their reproductive rate, otherwise the vicious cycle of famine and suffering will continue.


This statement is very offensive to me, Vox. My wife and I have been married for over 10 years now and we have NOT wanted kids until recently. I certainly DON'T consider my wife to be an "instrument for my pleasure taking". I used condoms for 10 years because we didn't want to have kids when we weren't ready. That's called being responsible and planning for our future. Your statement implies that myself and my wife are evil and that we are no better than "pigs" for having sex with a condom and that's just downright offensive and ignorant. This is one of the most childishly ignorant things that I have heard ANYONE say on ANY of these threads and I'm very surprised and disappointed that it came from you, Vox.


Yes, planning for the future like I explained above. Simple.


Condoms are not the CAUSE of the problem, they are a REACTION to the problem. Condoms PREVENT the spread of AIDS and STD's. Condoms PREVENT unwanted pregnancies. If more Africans would use condoms, then the birthrate would go down, thus alleviating some of the famine and disease that are currently running rampant there as a result of overpopulation. But Christianity tells them that condoms are evil and this serves only to increase an already overpopulated continent, thus causing more starvation, disease and death. Ironically, as I'm typing this, there is a commercial on television for the "Christians Children's Fund of Canada" and all I see are starving children and horrendous living conditions. Christianity's stance against condoms is clearly destructive for these suffering people. I'm absolutely DISGUSTED that ANY of you would disagree with this. A sick society indeed...

P.S. - To Vox and others who have responded on this thread, have YOU ever used a condom before? Be honest...
condoms are only 80% effective to prevent pregnancy,
as to your assertion about african population, I most certainly deny that there are too many africans, only racism and pure reptillian materialism asserts such arrogent claims, Poverty is NOT caused by too many Children, it is caused by too many selfish materialists, it is caused by selfishness and greed, the very selfishness and greed which grows in the petri dish of the contraceptive mindset, I ME ME MINE...be it the ruthless dictators who oppress people into poverty, or the greedy capitalists who poison the free maket and liberty of the poor ruining their ability to feed themselves...all of them contraceptive in their outlook
and yes I would submit that you and your wives motives are self serving and a form of abuse of each other, and if this offends you there is nothing I can do about it, (hence I understand your vehement defence of same sex marriage ....their sexual relationship is no different then yours... all about pleasure), AND YES CLOSE TO 50% OF SO CALLED AMERICAN CATHOLICS USE CONTRACEPTION(in direct opposition to church teaching), but not this Catholic, nor any faithfull catholic. So we practice what we preach, NYE this is the poision beer metaphor again , I would be according to my faith lieing to you if I told you contraception was acceptable.Contraception is poison to your soul and your marriage. What makes you think children are like mortgages?
"Children are not your Children, they are the Children of Lifes Longing for itself..."Gibran
I doubt youll ever want to discuss with me again after this post, but its more important to me that I Love you as a Brother, regardless of whether you Love me back...this is the Christians burden.

[voxpopulisuxx]

ps did you cut a check for those starving Children on TV? Be Honest

[evilwill]

Im always amazed at the arrogence of people especially white people who think themselves worthy to Judge who has too many kids....contraception makes users it doesnt just protect them...users of others who see others as mere instruments for their pleasure taking, std are spred by promiscous sex at least inititally, the fact that the curse the selfish self indulgent "users" has entered into the general populus does not now make promiscuity a good thing, contraception is not a device it is a mindset that says pleasure in all its forms is the highest good...pigs think as much.

I'm amazed at the total disregard catholics can have for the well being of other poeple just as long as they conform to catholic beliefs. Logic would state that since you only have a finite income and finite resources, you should only have an amount of children that you are able to provide a life for, is you want kids at all.

Your beliefs state that whatever your income may be, have as many kids as you want and just hope for the best. Don't worry that you won't be able to feed them, don't worry you can't get them real medical treatment, don't worry that they will probably die before they reach their teens. It's irresponsible and pathetic.

If the sex if consentual, no here is being used. You just don't like the fact that people aren't bowing down to your almighty lord and are instead enjoying themselves. There is nothing wrong with pleasure, you're just stuck in the dark ages when people used to live in fear and punish themselves for sins.

It's people like you that shouldn't be allowed kids.

[dutchie]

I dont remeber and cant find anywhere where vox said anything about his wife and him using the pill or any contraception,...if Im not mistaken his one post suggests he has 5 children...alot of orthodox catholics have large familys...they dont practice contraception...but abstain...that what Ive heard about...you dutchi have taken too much credit....and it seems to me that its you who dont want more africans around...why so the dutch will have more wealth? you dont seem to deny vox's "racist" charge...hmmmmmmmm
To BOTH Holy Paladin (!!) and Vox (whichever the shoe fits):

WTF?!? You didn't see me writing about MY choice of contraception!! Abstain?!? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! GTFOH!!! I pity you and your wives.
I took too much credit?!? On what?!?

The African people DO have a problem. Nowhere in the world AIDS is a bigger problem. Nowhere in the world there are so many people starving per day than in Africa. The total amount of tsunami victims is NOWHERE NEAR the starvation count of Africans. Me a RACIST?!? You and your sanctimoneous brothers in religious arms that prohibit the use of practically the single source against STD are the real racist criminals in this. You simply refuse to open your eyes to a problem and stick your collective heads up your arses. And then you're telling ME I'm a racist?!?
The catholic church should finally open its eyes to the grim truth: having lots of sexual relationships is part of the African culture. When you prohibit the use of birth control AND the only cheap prevention of STD, you are EFFECTIVELY killing off a population. Sleep well with murder on your conscience. Don't tell me I'm a racist, you hypocrite!

[voxpopulisuxx]

To BOTH Holy Paladin (!!) and Vox (whichever the shoe fits):

abstinence is not contraception

WTF?!? You didn't see me writing about MY choice of contraception!! Abstain?!? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! GTFOH!!! I pity you and your wives.
I took too much credit?!? On what?!?
abstinence is not contraception

The African people DO have a problem. Nowhere in the world AIDS is a bigger problem.(given to them by white men in the W.H.O.) Nowhere in the world there are so many people starving per day than in Africa. The total amount of tsunami victims is NOWHERE NEAR the starvation count of Africans. Me a RACIST?!? You and your sanctimoneous brothers in religious arms that prohibit the use of practically the single source against STD (lie...condoms are not "everysingle source" of protection from disease) are the real racist criminals in this. You simply refuse to open your eyes to a problem and stick your collective heads up your arses. And then you're telling ME I'm a racist?!?
The catholic church should finally open its eyes to the grim truth: having lots of sexual relationships is part of the African culture.(really? hmm and do they like watermellon too? do they all have big lips and are excellent dancers...more dutch racism here!) When you prohibit the use of birth control AND the only cheap prevention of STD, you are EFFECTIVELY killing off a population.(totally unsupportable hystrionics here...) Sleep well with murder on your conscience. Don't tell me I'm a racist, you hypocrite!
your a racist, and a reptillian materialist consider your self told. ANd you cant even define contraception apparently, and you have the murder of millions of unborn children on your hands, so dont sleep well at night (I sleep quite well thank you), the solution to the african problem as you put it is not LESS africans but the Birth of moral, kind, charitable PEOPLE in Africa, which means what is already going on, People are the solution not the problem, People help people survive, and cure diseases, and solve economys. not far away dutchman with socialist materialists utopian plans that include NOT JUST CONDOMS BUT FORCED STERILIZATION,DELIBERATE PROPAGANDA AND QUIP PRO QUO FOOD FOR PILLS (take these pills, will give you food) programs that target Africa not for Help but racial extermination. The WHO and the New World Order crowd is most definitely happy to see LESS African People, as you do in your false compassion. Its still the Idea that WHite MAn KNows Better. What was done and is being done in Africa, is no different then what the protestant US govt did to the Native Americans, when the gave them disease infected blankets for their children. I sleep well at night,Im not sure how you do since cold blooded reptiles need sunlight to keep their blood flowing.
MORE AFRICANS....NOT LESS! AFRICANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!

[voxpopulisuxx]

do you support Chinas population control policys too?

[Bigsky770]

. . .As anyone should find "Racism" as a reprehensible, antidated and regressed philosophy best removed from this world.

. . .Further yet, I would have to add this comment; Hans, I was RAISED Catholic. I left the church because I found that the teaching and instruction didn't sound (or) "ring as truth" to my core philosophies and beliefs, so, I decided that though I maintain a belief that there is a "God", "Catholicism" did not seem to represent a religion I could find myself pursuing [in that] it seems 'off the mark' to myself. What I am saying here, (in short) is that no-one "forced" me to be "Catholic", nor did I receive any threats when I decided to leave; If all of these affected peoples in Africa were to discover the same things, what would stop them from leaving the church, following other faiths (or) religious ideologies (and also) practicing in their lives ways to enjoy "sex" that are most closely aligned to their core beliefs and values, where it would not be considered as 'sin' to wear a 'condome?' I can go to a government clinic right now as I type this and get a shopping-bag of multi-coloured, high qulity latex condomes FOR FREE; all I need do is 'ask' for them. Just "IMHO" though for "what religion a person is" (and) "should a religion change to fit the beliefs of the population?", well, there's never going to be any changes in the fundamental laws within Catholism as long as people continue to 'flow with it' and never take issue with it by staying and accepting it. Sometimes it's just best to move-on. It comes down to personal choices really, and if a body chooses to live their lives by a belief system that is hopelessly out-of-touch with what we are as "Humans", then who's fault is that? . . .

What do you think?

Joe (Bigsky770) :vbroll:

[Bigsky770]

. . .Back-off, Vox! (IF you knew Hans at all) you would know one thing/he is NOT a "Racist", and you cannot stay here and keep practicing your character assassination upon individuals as we'll suspend you until we decide what further measures be taken. That's your last warning.

Joe (Bigsky770)

[dutchie]

.If all of these affected peoples in Africa were to discover the same things, what would stop them from leaving the church, following other faiths (or) religious ideologies (and also) practicing in their lives ways to enjoy "sex" that are most closely aligned to their core beliefs and values, where it would not be considered as 'sin' to wear a 'condome?'

Sometimes it's just best to move-on. It comes down to personal choices really, and if a body chooses to live their lives by a belief system that is hopelessly out-of-touch with what we are as "Humans", then who's fault is that? . . .

What do you think?
I think the Catholic church should acknowledge the fact that their dogmatics aren't doing the people in Africa any good. That a lot of them won't use condoms BECAUSE the church told them so. There are an awful lot of catcholics there, Joe. Religion has strong roots there, far stronger than in our western society. I don't think these people have a free choice like we do.

I think the attitude of fatalism towards the church is NOT helping the Africans. The church SHOULD change their stance towards STD and AIDS, and STOP thinking that abstinence is the only solution. It's just NOT the christian thing to do anymore.

I will not reply to Vox' post. It's just too plain stupid and insulting to even begin addressing that.

[evilwill]

your a racist, and a reptillian materialist consider your self told. ANd you cant even define contraception apparently, and you have the murder of millions of unborn children on your hands, so dont sleep well at night (I sleep quite well thank you), the solution to the african problem as you put it is not LESS africans but the Birth of moral, kind, charitable PEOPLE in Africa, which means what is already going on, People are the solution not the problem, People help people survive, and cure diseases, and solve economys. not far away dutchman with socialist materialists utopian plans that include NOT JUST CONDOMS BUT FORCED STERILIZATION,DELIBERATE PROPAGANDA AND QUIP PRO QUO FOOD FOR PILLS (take these pills, will give you food) programs that target Africa not for Help but racial extermination. The WHO and the New World Order crowd is most definitely happy to see LESS African People, as you do in your false compassion. Its still the Idea that WHite MAn KNows Better. What was done and is being done in Africa, is no different then what the protestant US govt did to the Native Americans, when the gave them disease infected blankets for their children. I sleep well at night,Im not sure how you do since cold blooded reptiles need sunlight to keep their blood flowing.
MORE AFRICANS....NOT LESS! AFRICANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!

More people means more disease. Can you tell me how more people can possibly aid their economy? They already have very limited resources, more demand simply means more people will go without and starve to death. You might think that these people will grow up to become part of the labour force, but alas, they die from AIDS and other STDs because the church told them not to use condoms, and that's even if they live to an age where they can have sex, because their parents were told not to use contraception as well, so they have many more kids than they can feed, and so have to go through the pain of out living many of their own children.

Apply logic to your own argument and watch it crumble before you.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

as to your assertion about african population, I most certainly deny that there are too many africans, only racism and pure reptillian materialism asserts such arrogent claims
The simple and obvious fact, when you see starving Africans on television with disproportionately distended stomachs and essentially skin just draped over their skeletons, is that THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FOOD to feed EVERYBODY!!! Thus, simple logic says that, if they don't have enough food, then there are TOO MANY PEOPLE!!! How can you deny this? This is fact, NOT racism. If you and Christianity had your way, Vox, then the Africans would keep multiplying until they were crammed together shoulder-to-shoulder wallowing in their own filth. Is that the answer? Because that's what you and Christianity are pushing them towards by encouraging them to multiply WELL BEYOND THEIR MEANS. That's just plain irresponsible and downright stupid. And that's NOT racism talking, rather my concern for the well-being of the African people.


and yes I would submit that you and your wives motives are self serving and a form of abuse of each other, and if this offends you there is nothing I can do about it,
Wow. I mean... wow. Abuse? Are you serious? ABUSE?


Contraception is poison to your soul and your marriage. What makes you think children are like mortgages?
It wasn't just lack of financial means that kept us from wanting kids, it was our maturity level at the time and our just not "feeling" ready for kids. Contraception allowed us to experience intimacy without the fear of having kids before we were ready. Poison to my soul and my marriage? Again, are you kidding? We just celebrated our 10th anniversary a few months ago and so we seem to be doing just fine without you and your draconian ways. Ironically, speaking of marriage, the divorce rate for Christian couples is 24% while the divorce rate for atheist couples is 21% (no, Skippy, I did not pull these figures out of my ass). Please explain this to me...


I doubt youll ever want to discuss with me again after this post, but its more important to me that I Love you as a Brother, regardless of whether you Love me back...this is the Christians burden.
No, that's not true. We'll still debate. Like I've said before, I'm a pretty laid back person and it takes a LOT to really upset me and piss me off. I'm more surprised and disappointed with your views on this subject than anything. Christianity, and most other religions, have a ridiculous amount of rules to follow. Over the long haul, this will be religion's eventual downfall...


ps did you cut a check for those starving Children on TV? Be Honest
No, I most certainly did NOT. Christianity's short-sighted stance on condom use by Africans is compounding the problem there. So why would I give my money to a bunch of morons who are just making the problem worse? If this Christian organization is stupid enough to ban condom use, thus making the over-population worse, then what would lead me to believe that they have any other "bright" ideas? No, I didn't give my money to them because it would NOT be put to good use. But I'm considering buying a box of condoms and shipping it over to Africa so that something USEFUL can be accomplished...


The African people DO have a problem. Nowhere in the world AIDS is a bigger problem.(given to them by white men in the W.H.O.)
Given to them by white...?!?!?! Actually, scientists believe that the AIDS virus developed in African monkeys and eventually mutated to be able to infect humans.


the solution to the african problem as you put it is not LESS africans but the Birth of moral, kind, charitable PEOPLE in Africa, which means what is already going on, People are the solution not the problem, People help people survive, and cure diseases, and solve economys.
Vox, while your "solutions" may apply to YOU in our fortunate civilization, they most certainly do NOT apply to the unfortunate Africans who live in poverty. They simply don't have the infrastructure to support their already overpopulated continent. Maintaining a naive outlook does nothing to help these people. Forget about your religion for a moment and think of something constructive to help these people instead of spouting inane niceties while birds in the background are perched atop rainbows and singing "Zippity Doo-Dah".

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Okay, since we're talking about birth control here and having sex only for the purpose of reproduction, here's a nice little dilemma for you to try to explain, Vox:

The average age of onset of menstruation is roughly 12 years. In some cases, girls as young as 8.5 years of age have started menstruating. Now, seeing as how God created men and women and designed us in a very specific manner, please explain to me why a girl who is 8.5 years old would NEED to menstruate? According to your way of "thinking", Vox, this 8.5 year-old girl should now be having sex because she is now able to reproduce as is clearly evidenced by God bestowing this ability upon her at this early age. Is God actually Michael Jackson? Okay, all kidding aside, your beliefs say that this 8.5 year-old should start having kids right away because God made her ABLE to. If you disagree with this deduction, then WHY would God give her the ability to have kids at such an early age? And if you DO agree, then are we to start having sex with 8.5 year-old girls? Remaining on the topic of menstruation, we know that mature women (ie- women above age 18 for example) menstruate every 28 days and are only capable of conceiving for a few days out of that 28-day cycle. So if God intended sex ONLY for reproductive purposes, WHY would he make women fertile for ONLY a few days out of each month? It seems that God has POORLY designed women! Does this make Him FALLIBLE? Clearly, if sex was meant ONLY for reproduction, then He would have designed a woman's reproductive system to be capable of conceiving AT ALL TIMES, NOT cyclical. Not only that, but I'm sure that YOU have had sex with your wife many times during a period when she was NOT ovulating, which makes YOU GUILTY of having sex WITHOUT the purpose of reproducing. NO EXCUSES! If you were a devout Christian in the strictest sense as you claim, you could have EASILY go to the drug store and purchased an ovulation kit, monitor your wife's cycle and have sex ONLY during times when she is ovulating. If not this way, then it is known that most women can "tell" when they are ovulating, they just "feel" different (eg- many women have breast tenderness just before ovulation). So, Vox, in effect YOU and YOUR WIFE have had sex in the past during times when it was IMPOSSIBLE to conceive! Again, NO EXCUSES! You cannot claim ignorance on this one! What do you have to say for yourself?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

AND YES CLOSE TO 50% OF SO CALLED AMERICAN CATHOLICS USE CONTRACEPTION(in direct opposition to church teaching)
I'm not saying that you're wrong as Skippy would ignorantly do, but I'm going to have to ask for a reference for this 50% figure. I strongly suspect that this figure is MUCH higher than what you've posted. But I will reserve final judgment and avoid the over-used knee-jerk proof-less Skippy-like response until you prove my suspicion otherwise.

[voxpopulisuxx]

. . .Back-off, Vox! (IF you knew Hans at all) you would know one thing/he is NOT a "Racist", and you cannot stay here and keep practicing your character assassination upon individuals as we'll suspend you until we decide what further measures be taken. That's your last warning.

Joe (Bigsky770)
you have got to be kidding me! Have you read his posts to me? I mean I dont care that he calls me a hypocrit, and and genociadal, but I guess you should...Ill tell you wwhat If you want to threaten me fine, but know this, that you are being biased and prjudicial and selective in your assesmant of this, I suppose being called a hypocrit and genocidal has nothing to do with my character.....you know what this is my last post here, please delete all my threads here... I am formally withdrawing all my support...I wil tell every fellow blogster that this is a site that has a litmus test for discussions, that only secular veiws are supported here, and that the admins are prejudicial, biased, the free advertising I was giving at Catholic Chat I am formally withdrawing...this threat is too much, the big brother act has proven that THIS SITE IS ABOUT SELECTIVE FREE SPEECH!! admins first contributers second class, get dutchi to carry the discussions from now on Im out of here! you cant fire me, I QUIT

[humanhybrid]

Good debate! We will only find this here at "armageddon online" His tail is between his legs a running. He will be back for some more though! He is coming to terms. good day!

[DontBeAfraid]

Good bye drama queen.

[voxpopulisuxx]

Good bye drama queen.
im glad to leave enjoy yourselves,lol

[dutchie]

I'm sorry Vox, I didn't want you to leave. I just wanted you to ease up a bit. But now that you did...(I'm still quite sure you will see this post)..

A lot of members are right. You did NOT use logic very often in your debates. The views you posted DID have a habit of crumbling away under the arguments people presented against them. You often DID bail out of arguments that were too hot for you to handle. And if all else failed, you DID resort to name calling and character assasination. Maybe it's for the better you took some time off and cool down. We're all prepared to address your arguments again when you want to return, but don't take it so personally when you lose a few debates. We're all in this for the fun of it, but I'm having serious doubts about your attitude towards this forum - you're way too serious..

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

And if all else failed, you DID resort to name calling and character assasination.
Definitely. He essentially implied that I abuse my wife, that her and I are no better than pigs for having loving consensual sex without the intent to reproduce and that this subsequently acts as poison to my soul and my marriage despite the fact that we recently and happily celebrated our 10th anniversary and despite knowing that Christian marriages end up in divorce more frequently than atheist marriages. Vox, if you can't take it then don't dish it out...

Vox, deleting all of your posts is a pretty childish thing to do. Not only that, but do you realize that much of what you have posted in the past is retained in other peoples' posts as cut-and-paste quotes? What this does is effectively take EVERYTHING that you have ever posted here OUT OF CONTEXT. Needless to say, this watering down of your posts really doesn't make you look good. So once again, a knee-jerk reaction has backfired on you. To use your own words, ssssssssssssssstechy techysssssssssssss...

Finally, despite our differences, Vox, I have learned a lot from you on these forums. I would prefer that you stay here, but you have to learn not to take things too seriously or too personally here. It's a double standard to call dutchie a racist and then to get all upset when he defends himself and fights back. Just chill. We're all just wanting to have a little fun here and maybe learn a few things in the process...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Just to follow up on the Africans. I just saw that same commercial for the "Christian Children's Fund of Canada" on television and one of the statistics that they put on screen was that 29,000 (yes, that's twenty-nine THOUSAND) children in Africa die EACH DAY of STARVATION. I'm sorry, Vox, but your solution of "let's make MORE kids!" is a colossally STUPID idea. There's no way that you CAN'T see this! If you DON'T see things this way, then clearly you are letting your religious beliefs dangerously interfere with your common sense and you are FAR more out of touch with reality than I initially feared...

[dutchie]

Hear hear!!

The figures are even worse, Bill. In Africa alone, (almost) MORE people die EVERY single day, than the total tsunami victim count. Now of course STD's aren't the only cause (starvation, infant deaths, malaria you name it), BUT THEY COULD BE PREVENTED SO EASILY!!

[Skippy]

I had planned on staying out of this debate because the participants seem more inclined to be engaged in a pissing contest more than anything else. First, let's get a few things straight.....for those who do not believe in God...STF....the concept that life is precious, or has any value whatsoever is a concept that comes from having a supreme being.

So, if you do not believe in God, or any supreme being, then you believe that humans are chattle just like any other livestock, and culling of the herd can take place without any moral compunction. Life has no value to you, or, you are admitting that you believe in a supreme being.

If you believe in God, then it is the Church doctrine that you have issue with. Catholic doctrine is based upon the belief that all of it is derived from God. Since these beliefs come from God, they cannot change with fads, and psychology du jour. God teaches us that life is precious. This is where life has value, therefore interfering with creation of life is a sin in the eyes of God. It is the teaching of the Church that using condoms to interfere with the creation of life is a sin. Using condoms to prevent disease is also a sin because fornication is a sin.

As for Africa? Who cares. The Africans sure as hell don't. If we are to believe the latest evolutionary theory, humans have lived on that continent for over a million years. This is the best that they have done with it so far? The haven't even learned to irrigate and prepare for drought and famine (read OT to learn that Moses dealt with this)

In that last million years, Africans have been warring with each other and it is the Africans who have put themselves in the predicament they are in by NOT acting, or living civilized. Everybody remembers the Ethiopian famine from the 70s, but few knew that it was in Eritrea that the famine ocured and the Ethiopians had lots of food, but wanted to invade Eritrea and they bombed their crops to starve the Eritreans. So it hasn't been God giving them famines, it has been man and war that has been doing it.

The reason that AIDS is so bad in Africa is because there are no sexual mores among too many of the people. Had the Africans been less inclined to spread the disease it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. But, when you have African men and boys raping women, teenagers, children, and infants because they superstitiously believe that by doing so it will make them more powerful, then perhaps this needs to be dealt with soon.

Condoms will not stop the spread of AIDS in Africa. It just won't happen until the wars, and the ancient beliefs are changed. Having lots of children, or having none at all will have no impact on food crops that are damaged by war.

The problems in Africa have nothing to do with Catholic teachings. In fact, there are that many Catholics in Africa when compared to other religions.

You know, I find it interesting that the likes of the Nye will ridicule Christians who believe in a moral code, and at the sam time indirectly offer support for bushmen with superstitions that make it perfectly fine to rape an infant on their very first day of life (and give that child AIDS in the process)

Maybe find out what is really going on in Africa before commenting on it.

[evilwill]

Now you're just playing the blame game. I agree with you that there are many other factors causing the problems in Africa as well, but you can't deny the role catholicism is playin either, no matter how big or small it is compared to the other factors.

As for your moral dilema. You say it's a sin to prevent life. Yet it's alright to bring life into a world where it will suffer from disease and starvation, whilst you are powerless to help it until it finally dies an agonising death?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

pissing contest more than anything else
I can piss farther than yooooouuuuu cannnnn!


.....for those who do not believe in God...STF....the concept that life is precious, or has any value whatsoever is a concept that comes from having a supreme being. So, if you do not believe in God, or any supreme being, then you believe that humans are chattle just like any other livestock, and culling of the herd can take place without any moral compunction. Life has no value to you, or, you are admitting that you believe in a supreme being.
Wow. I mean... wow. I wasn't aware that I, being in the medical field, have no value for life and no moral compunction. And I also was not aware that in order to have a value for life that one HAS to believe in a supreme being. << buzzer sounds >> What color is the sky in your world, Skipster? Get off your holier-than-thou soapbox and take off your rose-colored glasses. We atheists/agnostics DO value life whether you think we do or not. It's okay, though, you can think that we don't if that makes you feel more important. It's short-sighted religious zealots like you that want Africans to bring more and more helpless children into an over-populated world already infested with famine and disease. Guess what, Skippy? That will NOT help them! You are even further out of touch with reality than VOX is if you think that it WILL! Is it possible for anyone to be THAT naive? Apparently it is...


It is the teaching of the Church that using condoms to interfere with the creation of life is a sin. Using condoms to prevent disease is also a sin because fornication is a sin.
Of all the STUPID rules in the world, this has got to top them all! You really should join a club that allows you to have sex, Skippy! It's fun! NOT evil! FUN!!!


As for Africa? Who cares.
Is this that vaunted "value for life" that you spoke so highly of earlier? Which religion are you again? You know, just so that I know which one NOT to sign up for...


The haven't even learned to irrigate and prepare for drought and famine (read OT to learn that Moses dealt with this)
Uummm, the Old Testament is mythology. Moses is a fictional character.


Condoms will not stop the spread of AIDS in Africa.
Sure they will! Throw away your rose-colored glasses and join us in the REAL world where we use REAL solutions to solve problems, Skippy. Your religious beliefs are sadly irrelevant where Africa is concerned. Condom use = less AIDS spread (it's not rocket science!) Why is this such a difficult concept for you? How can you be THAT stupid?


Having lots of children, or having none at all will have no impact on food crops that are damaged by war.
But unfortunately, what food IS left over after war damage NOW has to be spread out between MORE people. Thus, more children equals more starvation. Again, this is not rocket science...


The problems in Africa have nothing to do with Catholic teachings.
You are correct! But the Catholic Church's STUBBORN ban on condom use is MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE!!! There is NOT ENOUGH FOOD in Africa to support the current population, thus the logical thing to do is to REDUCE reproduction through the SIMPLE use of condoms! Again, NOT rocket science...


You know, I find it interesting that the likes of the Nye will ridicule Christians who believe in a moral code,
You DO realize that a person can have a moral code SANS organized religion? Yeah, it's true. And it doesn't come with all of the draconian rules and life-crippling restrictions either. Contrary to what you believe, I DO have faith. It's faith in MYSELF. I don't need to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky to tell ME how to live my life morally. I'm not ridiculing the fact that you have a moral code, I'm ridiculing the fact that you have to be TOLD what your morals are by an invisible man who was invented MILLENNIA ago. I'm ridiculing the fact that you are TRAPPED in this pretend religion for the rest of your life and that you don't have the BALLS to stand up to it and live your life YOUR way otherwise you'll go to Hell. I'm ridiculing the fact that you have to adhere to such a RIGID and ARCHAIC set of rules and morals that have absolutely NO RELEVANCE in today's modern society. You are SO FAR out of touch with REALITY that it's not even funny. It's just plain SAD...


and at the sam time indirectly offer support for bushmen with superstitions that make it perfectly fine to rape an infant on their very first day of life (and give that child AIDS in the process)
NOBODY condones this, Skippy. You're naive and stupid if you think that we do. These are DISGUSTING acts conducted by DISGUSTING people. But this is a different situation from what we were discussing. Thus, if we give condoms to Africans who are having CONSENSUAL sex, then it WILL reduce the spread of AIDS. If you disagree with this, then you might as well say that 1+1=3...


Maybe find out what is really going on in Africa before commenting on it.
Again, Skippy, TOTALLY different situation that NOBODY here was discussing. You pulled this one out of your rectum and childishly tried to use it against us when CLEARLY NOBODY here would condone such barbaric actions. Stick to the topic being discussed, Skippy...

[dutchie]

It is the teaching of the Church that using condoms to interfere with the creation of life is a sin. Using condoms to prevent disease is also a sin because fornication is a sin.

I am a sinner. I wanna sin more!! I wanna sin EVERY DAY!!!! YEAHHH!!!!!

Seriously, Skippy. Are you telling us about the teaching of the church, or are you actually telling us you have made this teaching a part of your personal morals and you actually LIVE those morals?!?
Sorry, Skip - I don't believe it for one minute. You MUST be a sad lonely man, with twenty totally worn out copies of Hustler magazine stashed away behind the books on the upper shelf... Or.. you married a lesbian and she kept it a secret.

Don't be offended: in your profile I read that your main interest lies in "pissing off the trolls on message boards.." I'm just returning the favor.

[Skippy]

Now you're just playing the blame game. I agree with you that there are many other factors causing the problems in Africa as well, but you can't deny the role catholicism is playin either, no matter how big or small it is compared to the other factors.

Playing te blame game? not really because it would appear that some here would blame the Church for all the ills in Africa yet Catholic doctrine is so minor a part in the problems in Africa that far too much wieght is placed upon it. It's quite obvious from some of the posts that have appeared here that personal dislikes for Catholicism are driving the idea that Catholic doctrine is to blame.


As for your moral dilema. You say it's a sin to prevent life. Yet it's alright to bring life into a world where it will suffer from disease and starvation, whilst you are powerless to help it until it finally dies an agonising death?

Then why do poor people in the US have babies? There is a lot of disease and starvation, misery, crime, etc, in the ghettos and trailer parks of the US....and there is a ready supply of condoms in all flavours and colours of the rainbow. Why then does the US lead the developed world in teen pregnancies? Why are STDs so rampant in the US? Shouldn't all that freedom make it so that the US is a model for the rest of the world? No, of course not because it isn't the condom that will cure all of society's ills, there are far too many other factors to be considered.

[Skippy]

I am a sinner. I wanna sin more!! I wanna sin EVERY DAY!!!! YEAHHH!!!!!

Seriously, Skippy. Are you telling us about the teaching of the church, or are you actually telling us you have made this teaching a part of your personal morals and you actually LIVE those morals?!?

I was offering the position of the Church. You'll note that I did not put any of my own personal beliefs into the post, but since you are indirectly asking, I will share them with you. Let's start with a joke.....what do you call a Catholic woman practicing the rhythym method? Mommy.

But, in all seriousness, and in the traditions of a Talmudic Rabbi, even the rhythym method would be interfering with procreation therefore it too would be considered a sin in the same vein as using condoms.

I believe that if God had not wanted humans to control their reproductive systems, then God would have made them tamper proof. Therefore, in my opinion which is like my opinion on abortion, is that the subject of using birth control is a subject that is private between the two participants and their god. Nobody else's business.

As for the concept of fornication. That is something too that falls into the realm of the participants and their god. While many people would like to think that there isn't anything wrong with unleashed hedonism in its various forms, a careful study of the subject will show that far too often there is considerably more harm caused than not. We also must look at psychological/emotional harm, not just physical harm.

What happens is that you get two extremes, and a very area with varying shades of grey. It is in that really big grey area that we must focus our attention and examine everything on a case by case basis. Sometimes fornication will be wrong, sometimes it will not be....it comes down to the participants and their thoughts/behaviours/emotions. My experience and observations show that most of the time it will be wrong, but not all the time. But it is the people involved and what is going on inside their psyches that makes that determination, not the physical act of sex itself.



Sorry, Skip - I don't believe it for one minute. You MUST be a sad lonely man, with twenty totally worn out copies of Hustler magazine stashed away behind the books on the upper shelf... Or.. you married a lesbian and she kept it a secret.

You make it sound like masturbation is a bad thing. Perhaps if more people were busy with their hands then they wouldn't be out in the world screwing up. But, bear in mind that you are in the Netherlands where the attitudes are much more different than in North America, and you are not so hung up on political correctness.

Lonliness has nothing to do with whether a person is getting laid or not. Far too many lonely people are in marriages and getting sex on a regular basis, and one of he things you may find is that the person who is out getting laid the most, by the most number of different partners may be the loneliest person on the planet. There is no connection between the two.

As for Hustler....nope....never liked the magazine. I always found it too crude for my liking. But, today is the internet age, and if you have been online as long as I have, then you already know how to get all kinds of free porn so that you needn't ever buy a magazine except if there is an article in it that you really want to read.



Don't be offended: in your profile I read that your main interest lies in "pissing off the trolls on message boards.." I'm just returning the favor.

It takes quite a bit to offend me, so you are safe in that respect. There are very few things that I find offensive, however, certain persons are very offensive to me, but that is not because of the content of their message, but their behaviours to others. To qualify as being an offensive (disgusting) person to me, you must be offensive (aggressive). You would have to be a destructive force. You, Dutchie, are not a destructive force. Most of the visitors to AO are not destructive forces, however, there are some who are, and I make no secret of what I think about those individuals. And without naming names, currently there is only one individual who is actively a destructive force that is posting now. This individual uses dishonesty in their posts. They also believe that religious or moral questions can be won by debate, is too lazy to do research, and will glom onto the most convenient thing that supports their own ideas while ignoring that which contradicts their ideas. That person posts based on their ego more than anything else. I like to call those people kids.

Which leads me to the next part. Since one never really knows what another person really is on the internet, we are forced to make assumptions based on behaviours. This includes age, and based on beaviours, a person is given a net age. (pun intended) You are a child if you behave like a child under 15 regardless of your physical age. You are a teenager if you behave like someone between the ages of 16 and 19. (none of those here) If you behave like someone who is between the ages of 19 and 25 then you are a kid. There are a lot of those here. I think there are as many as those as there are adults. The kids will tend to be destructive forces, however, since they have the potential to grow up, then for the most part they should be given the freedom to grow and learn. Since we were all kids at one time, it is the role of the adult to help them along as much we can. Some of the kids here need a bit of help more than others, some kids will always be kids.

You, Dutchie, are an adult. So are most of the regular long timers here. So unless you are prepared to completely alter your make-up, I do not anticipate ever being offended by you.

[Bigsky770]

. . .Frankly, I find the whole issue of whether the Africans wear rubbers AND "Fornicate" (or) don't wear rubbers AND "Fornicate" kinda perplexing. . .Here's what I am thinking:

1. Okay, within the Catholic faith, it is a sin to wear "Rubbers", so they don't.

2. They are so sucked into doing what is "Right" that they follow this/even (apparently) unto "Death".

3. And yet, "Fornication" is ALSO a sin, but THIS they do? (and then, summarily succumbing to "AIDS?")

. . .This is why I don't get it. Some blame "Catholicism" and the Pope's ruling that a "Good Catholic" will NOT use rubbers. But then they break another commandment and fornicate anyway, which is ALSO (as I am certain) not something the "Pope" would wish for either. . .

. . .It is apparent that our brothers in Africa are exercising more "Free Will" then we give them credit for. If they can make 'choices' to this degree, one would think? they would just 'choose' another faith that is more in-line with their views on contraception, but then who would be to blame (IF) they should still not choose to wear rubbers? Perhaps they just don't wear rubbers for the same reason I don't. It feels like you are taking a shower fully-clothed.

Joe (Bigsky770) :dunno:

[Skippy]

Joe....I am in agreement with you. It's all too easy to assign blame to using condoms or not using condoms, but the fact is, the people of Africa are using their own free will and much of it is guided by superstion that comes from their traditional African beliefs.

When you look at the most populous countries, India is predominantly Hindu.....why do they have children starving but no AIDS crisis? They could have as many condoms as they want, but one thing they don't have is constant war. Same as China and Brazil. Can't say Russia because the number of abortions per capita is one of the, if not the highest in the world.

One thing that people fail to accept as a reality. Africans are extremely racist. We look at racisms as a blacks versus whites versus asian...etc. But in Africa, the racism is black versus black, but just different kinds of blacks. I remember a few years ago there was an international music festival in Toronto with acts from all over the world. I was chatting with the organizer and oddly, the greatest dilemna for this guy was not all of the logistics of putting together something so varied (did an excellent job of it) but that he had two acts from Africa and he could not have them go anywhere near each other because they came from tribes that did not get along. Musicians!!!!!

The problems in Africa most clearly have to do with war. Stop the warring and 70% of the problems will solve themselves.Go to this site and you will see that it is war that is the greatest concern, not the debate whether ribbed condoms (for her pleasure) are more sinful than plain condoms....

AllAfrica.Com (http://AllAfrica.Com)

[evilwill]

Playing te blame game? not really because it would appear that some here would blame the Church for all the ills in Africa yet Catholic doctrine is so minor a part in the problems in Africa that far too much wieght is placed upon it. It's quite obvious from some of the posts that have appeared here that personal dislikes for Catholicism are driving the idea that Catholic doctrine is to blame.

There is no denying that catholic doctrine does its part to worsen the situation. I agree that it is a minor factor, yet it still contributes to the growing problem. Do you admit that your religion is causing even more pain and suffering?



Then why do poor people in the US have babies? There is a lot of disease and starvation, misery, crime, etc, in the ghettos and trailer parks of the US....and there is a ready supply of condoms in all flavours and colours of the rainbow. Why then does the US lead the developed world in teen pregnancies? Why are STDs so rampant in the US? Shouldn't all that freedom make it so that the US is a model for the rest of the world? No, of course not because it isn't the condom that will cure all of society's ills, there are far too many other factors to be considered.

Of course the condom doesn't cure all of societies ills, yet it can certainly help in some aspects. There could be a long list of why America has pregnancy and STD issues. At least Americans have the freedom to use condoms, being smart enough to use them or not is left in their hands. The Africans don't get that freedom, they are told condoms are evil and denied access to contraception. Different situations.

[Skippy]

There is no denying that catholic doctrine does its part to worsen the situation. I agree that it is a minor factor, yet it still contributes to the growing problem. Do you admit that your religion is causing even more pain and suffering?

Can you offer a concrete example of this? It's easy to make the claim, but perhaps you could offer an example. On my side, I offer the Emerald Isle.





Of course the condom doesn't cure all of societies ills, yet it can certainly help in some aspects. There could be a long list of why America has pregnancy and STD issues. At least Americans have the freedom to use condoms, being smart enough to use them or not is left in their hands. The Africans don't get that freedom, they are told condoms are evil and denied access to contraception. Different situations.

Here you open a can of worms that could allow a long debate that would never be resolved. In essence what you are saying is that it is about freedom of choice, not so much condoms that is the problem. Also, let us not forget that Africa is a continent, not a country, so we are actually discussing a number of different countries with different scenarios in each. While I can't be sure because I haven't checked, it does seem to me that it is in the countries where there is war that most of the problems exist. South Africa is not technically at war with another country, it's more an internal conflict that relates back to Apartheid. Also, the number of Catholics in Africa is not that great because there are also a lot of Muslims, non-Catholic Christians, Jews (especially in Ethiopia) and more than anything is the traditional belief system in its varying forms and with combinations with other religions.

[dutchie]

Skippy, I got to hand it to you - your post to me did increase my feeling of respect for you. While we don't agree (at all) I can acknowledge the fact that you at least try to be a man of integrity, and this is something I can respect.

I watched a documentary on birthrates around the world some time ago, and it stated that most cultures in the third world (now the second, I gathered) have - from poverty - a deep need for lots of children, because they have absolutely no financial old age arrangements (obviously) and need children to take care of them when they're old and no longer capable of labour. They have lots of kids, because infant mortality rates are sky high. Maybe this addresses the issue of why the poor have many children...

[MetalMilitia]

IM GONE THIS SITE HAS SELECTIVE FREE SPEECH BE WARNED YOU HAVE NO FREE SPEECH AT THIS SITE!IM GONE THIS SITE HAS SELECTIVE FREE SPEECH BE WARNED YOU HAVE NO FREE SPEECH AT THIS SITE!IM GONE THIS SITE HAS SELECTIVE FREE SPEECH BE WARNED YOU HAVE NO FREE SPEECH AT THIS SITE!IM GONE THIS SITE HAS SELECTIVE FREE SPEECH BE WARNED YOU HAVE NO FREE SPEECH AT THIS SITE!

That's odd, cause I happen to admin on this site, and i've been using the BELOW signature for a few months..... strange indeed....

[Skippy]

Skippy, I got to hand it to you - your post to me did increase my feeling of respect for you. While we don't agree (at all) I can acknowledge the fact that you at least try to be a man of integrity, and this is something I can respect.

Give me an hour and I'll try to change that. :)



I watched a documentary on birthrates around the world some time ago, and it stated that most cultures in the third world (now the second, I gathered) have - from poverty - a deep need for lots of children, because they have absolutely no financial old age arrangements (obviously) and need children to take care of them when they're old and no longer capable of labour. They have lots of kids, because infant mortality rates are sky high. Maybe this addresses the issue of why the poor have many children...


Good point, and one that I hadn't even thought of. But very true indeed. In North America we like to put our seniors into homes that begin with "Shady" as in Shady Pines Retirement Homes, etc. (OT...I think the Shady has more to do with the operators than the amount of sunlight streaming through the windows)

But, it is rare to see children actually caring for their parents in their old age. Here we see a huge emphasis on RRSPs (Registered Retirement Savings Plans) for people when they get older because otherwise they would be left to subsist on catfood and grass.

[Skippy]

That's odd, cause I happen to admin on this site, and i've been using the BELOW signature for a few months..... strange indeed....

In all honesty, I can say without any hesitation that free speech does exist here with minor limitations. i.e. personal attacks.

I don't think it was so much the true lack of free speech so much as Vox dug himself a logic hole that he could not climb out of, he did get a few things wrong, and he was constantly harassed by one of the kids. I think he just got tired. Or, he just wiped the dust off his feet and moved on.

I will offer my opinion to you as forum administrator. My observation has been that a great many people don't have the stamina to put up with some of the BS that creeps into contentious debates. This is a product of the free speech that exists where any idiot can post idiocy ad nauseum. People who are peripherally interested in religion will tend to tolerate such behaviours, however, very few religious scholars would. So those who might offer some very good contributions to discussion are turned away.

As somebody who has been studying relgions for a little over 25 years, I tend to have to remind myself that some of the most voluminous posters are speaking out of their assholes, and opinions are like assholes because everybody has one, but some stink more than others. They have every right to do so, and it is how I manage it that is the issue for me. As an example, there is a certain person who seems to think that they have found the philospher's stone in the form of a clay tablet. While I could spend countless hours explaining that this tablet offers support contrary to what they believe, I have made a choice not to because it would not ever convince them that they are wrong. This is something they would have to set out onto a journey themself and discover the answer themself, but since they are too lazy to do that, I'm not about to waste my time.

So while I would to defend Vox for trying to share his beliefs, I am afraid I cannot because he bailed at the first crisis of faith.

[dutchie]

Judging by my post count (and my body weight) I would be the MOST voluminous poster.. And yes, sometimes I do talk out of my arse too. And yes, sometimes I post dribble, and try to annoy the shit out of a member.

The main thing: I AM HAVING FUN DOING IT!! I'm having fun when I'm serious AND I'm having fun when I write BS in a serious thread.

And it is precisely THAT uptight-stiff-upper-lip-OMG-I'm-a-scholar-and-an-intellectual mentality that will provoke others to post dribble. Lighten up, folks! This world is f..cking serious enough AS IT IS!!

That's why I really like MetalMilitia's sig. Free Speech, yeah.
Like I said to Vox already: way too serious... If I want to learn something SERIOUSLY, I will turn to some other resource. But after 3,500 posts (and some 600 more on the previous board) I find this site to be as addictive as my morning shower and the coffee that awaits me downstairs.

[evilwill]

Can you offer a concrete example of this? It's easy to make the claim, but perhaps you could offer an example. On my side, I offer the Emerald Isle.

I can't give you any statistics off the top of my head. My argument is based on the research I did for an oral regarding this very issue. I don't have the data saved anymore and am relying on memory. I'll try and dig it up if you like. And I'm not familiar with Emerald Isle, care to explain?


Here you open a can of worms that could allow a long debate that would never be resolved. In essence what you are saying is that it is about freedom of choice, not so much condoms that is the problem. Also, let us not forget that Africa is a continent, not a country, so we are actually discussing a number of different countries with different scenarios in each. While I can't be sure because I haven't checked, it does seem to me that it is in the countries where there is war that most of the problems exist. South Africa is not technically at war with another country, it's more an internal conflict that relates back to Apartheid. Also, the number of Catholics in Africa is not that great because there are also a lot of Muslims, non-Catholic Christians, Jews (especially in Ethiopia) and more than anything is the traditional belief system in its varying forms and with combinations with other religions.

Point taken. It is unfair to compare Africa to single nations. Freedom of choice is a big issue here. For those that are catholic within African nations, they don't have this freedom of choice. They are bound by catholic doctrine and therefore may end up with kids beyond their ability to provide for. Can you honestly say that it wouldn't be better off if the kids were never born and don't go through a suffering, short lived life?

[Skippy]

I can't give you any statistics off the top of my head. My argument is based on the research I did for an oral regarding this very issue. I don't have the data saved anymore and am relying on memory. I'll try and dig it up if you like. And I'm not familiar with Emerald Isle, care to explain?

The Emerald Isle is Ireland....a very Catholic place that went through this debate not so long ago. Most of their problems stemmed from war with the British.




Point taken. It is unfair to compare Africa to single nations. Freedom of choice is a big issue here. For those that are catholic within African nations, they don't have this freedom of choice. They are bound by catholic doctrine and therefore may end up with kids beyond their ability to provide for. Can you honestly say that it wouldn't be better off if the kids were never born and don't go through a suffering, short lived life?


With that reasoning the number of Catholics will be nil in 50 years. But, not all children will die a short-lived life. 500 years ago infant mortality rates were such that many parents would name their children with the same name because one was not expected to live. The fact is that not every child will be better off not being born. Then, on the other hand, a family may be doing perfectly well, have a huge brood of relatively healthy children and then some coup d'etat starts a civil war, and tribe A suddenly decides to wipe out all the people in Tribe B, and the result is famine and death.

You talk about freedom of choice, but leaving out the fact that no true freedom of choice exists anywhere in the world, only versions of it, and they do have freedom to choose whether they will procreate or not. They choose to continue having families, and again, the number of Catholic children that live short-lived lives versus all the other children of other religions is not all the great.

In our modern age, we tend to forget one very important thing....the meaning of life is very simple and basic. You are born, you are expected to procreate, then you will die. All that lives is born to die. Centuries ago it was necessary for large families for a number of reasons, tribal security was one of the biggest reasons. In Canada, there are not enough people having enough children that we are forced to allow a lot of immigration to make up for the lack of people being produced domestically. So much so that it is estimated that whites will be a minority in 2017. In a country that is constantly at war based on tribal affiliations, like many African nations, having those kids is necessary to their survival.

So, again, the effects of Catholic doctrine in Africa is just a minor contributing factor to the overall problems that it is in fact negligible. The media and protestant religions can try to blow it out of proportion, but it's not really the issue there.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

To qualify as being an offensive (disgusting) person to me, you must be offensive (aggressive).
Does that include being offensive and AGGRESSIVELY attacking people who have NEVER encountered you before who were asking OTHER people a legitimate question after being invited to do so? You've just labelled yourself a "disgusting" person, Skippy. Like dutchie said, your admitted "main interest" in your profile is "pissing off the trolls on message boards". This alone makes you a person of questionable character. But executing an unprovoked attack on me when I was having a discussion with Vox, which is the very definition of "trolling", also makes you a hypocrite. You can spout your morals all you want, it was quite moving. But your "hearfelt" speech is quite empty when you don't practice what you preach...


certain persons are very offensive to me, but that is not because of the content of their message, but their behaviours to others.
Just to hammer my point home. YOUR "behavior to others" included executing an unprovoked troll attack on me and calling me childish names. You made SEVERAL assumptions about me which were equally childish and unnecessary because you don't even KNOW me. And now you make this ridiculous "heartfelt" plea to try and save face, but you've only succeeded in clarifying that you have become the very type of person that you despise. YOU picked a fight with ME. YOU trolled ME. I was NOT looking for a fight when I was debating with Vox. But YOU threw down the gauntlet, forcing me to pick it up. And now you must be put in your place. But this pathetic heartfelt "plea" of yours confirms that you already HAVE been put in your place and are trying to gain the sympathy of others on the forums by lamely accusing ME of doing the EXACT SAME THINGS that YOU have ALREADY done. I gave you the opportunity to apologize and save face, but you turned it down as expected which reveal MUCH about your character, or lack thereof. And now, after EVERYONE here (not just ME) has pummelled you into submission, you're trying to gain sympathetic support. Too late, Skippy. You've clearly revealed yourself for the tiny little man that you are...


Skippy, I got to hand it to you - your post to me did increase my feeling of respect for you. While we don't agree (at all) I can acknowledge the fact that you at least try to be a man of integrity, and this is something I can respect.
The very characteristics that Skippy used to describe a "disgusting" person in his heartfelt rant were ironically PRACTICED by Skippy himself. Just look back at past posts. He admits in his profile that his MAIN INTEREST is "pissing of the trolls on message boards" and he practiced trolling HIMSELF when he attacked me while I was having a civilized debate with Vox. His admitted penchant for trolling makes him a vile character and his confusing distaste for "aggressive" behavior which he practices himself, such as said trolling, also makes him a hypocrite. Thus, his "integrity" is very much in question...


I don't think it was so much the true lack of free speech so much as Vox dug himself a logic hole that he could not climb out of, he did get a few things wrong, and he was constantly harassed by one of the kids.
Actually, I was Vox's best non-religious friend here on the Religion forum. If you would just read some of our back-and-forth posts to eachother (this "research" that you speak so highly of), you would see the genuine respect that we had for eachother. I had no such chance to engage in civilized debate with you because you VICIOUSLY troll-attacked me out of the blue, COMPLETELY unprovoked. And according to YOUR words, this makes YOU a "disgusting" person.


My observation has been that a great many people don't have the stamina to put up with some of the BS that creeps into contentious debates. This is a product of the free speech that exists where any idiot can post idiocy ad nauseum.
One only needs to read YOUR posts to observe such "BS" and "ad nauseum idiocy". Last time that I looked, your "ideas" have been repeatedly and vehemently shot down by MANY people on this forum due to said idiocy.


They have every right to do so, and it is how I manage it that is the issue for me.
You've handled SEVERAL debates here rather poorly, Skippy. You've resorted to trolling, name-calling, childish attempts to guess my age, "logic" which defies the concept of time, and in ALL of your ranting you STILL have YET to provide 1 BYTE of ANY TYPE OF PROOF to support ANYTHING that you have said! All you do in your responses is call me an idiot, say that I don't know what I'm talking about and then you spout about how much you know about religion without actual SAYING any of this supposed knowledge. That's NOT an effective debating technique, Skippy! I'd like to have a proper debate, Skippy, but you're just not very good at it.


As an example, there is a certain person who seems to think that they have found the philospher's stone in the form of a clay tablet. While I could spend countless hours explaining that this tablet offers support contrary to what they believe, I have made a choice not to because it would not ever convince them that they are wrong. This is something they would have to set out onto a journey themself and discover the answer themself, but since they are too lazy to do that, I'm not about to waste my time.
See what I mean? You CONSTANTLY avoid answering questions! You expect people just to "take your word for it". You're CONSTANTLY deflecting the difficult issues and changing the topic.


Judging by my post count (and my body weight) I would be the MOST voluminous poster.. And yes, sometimes I do talk out of my arse too. And yes, sometimes I post dribble, and try to annoy the shit out of a member.
The main thing: I AM HAVING FUN DOING IT!! I'm having fun when I'm serious AND I'm having fun when I write BS in a serious thread.
And it is precisely THAT uptight-stiff-upper-lip-OMG-I'm-a-scholar-and-an-intellectual mentality that will provoke others to post dribble. Lighten up, folks! This world is f..cking serious enough AS IT IS!!
That's why I really like MetalMilitia's sig. Free Speech, yeah.
Like I said to Vox already: way too serious... If I want to learn something SERIOUSLY, I will turn to some other resource. But after 3,500 posts (and some 600 more on the previous board) I find this site to be as addictive as my morning shower and the coffee that awaits me downstairs.
Well put, dutchie! I only hope that Skippy realizes that he's looking for a fight where none was intended to be found.

Bravo, Skippy. Your last few posts actually contain intelligent thoughts. It's too bad that you had to lower yourself to a personal attack in your first post directed at me. Be aware that if you dish it out, it will be dished out right back at you. If you address me or anyone else here with an intelligent thought, then an intelligent response will follow EVEN if we don't agree with you. But if you attack ME or ANYONE else here with the venom that you've shown in the past, then I will defend MYSELF and others with equal venom. Remember, Skippy. YOU attacked ME. Unprovoked. Unwarranted. Nobody likes a troll. Instead of correcting your mistake, you chose to continue slinging the mud. For SOME reason, the fact that I wouldn't just sit back and take your mud-slinging and not defend myself REMARKABLY makes me a disgusting person. I suspect that you didn't anticipate that I would defend myself. But rather than admit that you trolled me, you chose to take the low road and continue your attacks. And because you couldn't cow me into submission, that REMARKABLY makes me a disgusting person. You DO NOT know me AT ALL, Skippy. Yet you continue to judge my character based on a venemous fight that we're having. Ironically, you admit that you are making many assumptions about me, and then you turn right around and continue to make more assumptions. And AMAZINGLY, I am a bad person for defending myself. Again, attack ME and you WILL be attacked back. Provide intelligent thoughts and intelligent responses will be given back. Just don't expect anybody, especially ME, to just roll over and play dead when you attack. Throw down the gauntlet and it WILL be picked up. We started off on the wrong foot, but I easily forgive and forget. So if you want to have an intelligent debate, then I'll respectfully do so. But if you wish to continue slinging mud, I will defend myself. It's your choice...

[dutchie]

The very characteristics that Skippy used to describe a "disgusting" person in his heartfelt rant were ironically PRACTICED by Skippy himself. Just look back at past posts. He admits in his profile that his MAIN INTEREST is "pissing of the trolls on message boards" and he practiced trolling HIMSELF when he attacked me while I was having a civilized debate with Vox. His admitted penchant for trolling makes him a vile character and his confusing distaste for "aggressive" behavior which he practices himself, such as said trolling, also makes him a hypocrite. Thus, his "integrity" is very much in question...
Correct. I'm just a little bit more forgiving, I guess. And yes, I didn't read ALL venomous exchanges between the both of you..

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Correct. I'm just a little bit more forgiving, I guess. And yes, I didn't read ALL venomous exchanges between the both of you...
Not enough people in this world are forgiving enough unfortunately. I am forgiving also. All I ask is that Skippy at least ADMITS that his attack on me was over-zealous and unprovoked and that he could have been more diplomatic, considering that it was the FIRST time that I had encountered him on these forums. I don't expect an apology because there is pride at stake, but at least the extending of an olive branch is not out of the question. And yes, dutchie, there have been MANY venomous exchanges between us, something which is more easily done in cyberspace than in a face-to-face exchange. If Skippy knew me at all, then he would realize that I'm a good person with high moral standards and I like to joke around alot and have fun, which is what I'm accomplishing gleefully with my Jedianity thread! But he's made many assumptions based on atypical venemous posts, which is very wrong because EVERYBODY is an asshole in cyberspace as he has eloquently pointed out. The only exposure to my character that Skippy has experienced so far is the aggressive defending of myself brought on by HIS attack on me. And he should know better than to judge a person based on venomous debates. Despite all of his taunting, I NEVER made any comments on his character because I don't KNOW him at all. I've proven in the past that I can let bygones be bygones and be civil to people who have radically different beliefs from mine as was evidenced with Vox. But the ball is in Skippy's court. He initiated the nastiness and thus it is his mess to clean up. My faith in Canadian hospitality has been shattered...

[Skippy]

Correct. I'm just a little bit more forgiving, I guess. And yes, I didn't read ALL venomous exchanges between the both of you..

Hey Dutchie...a little secret...I don't read any of the posts that he writes ABOUT me, I just scan them. No person has written as much ABOUT me in all my life as this individual has in the last couple of weeks. I think I might hire him as my biographer. But then....wait a second....I am his mirror when posting near him because all that comes from me is just a reflection of what he posts to me and other.

Like I said previously, I dislike double standards. Why is it that when you and he decides to post drivel, insults, or anything else you are just having a bit o fun, yet when others do it to you, or he, then it is the crime of the century? Why is it that in the SERIOUS DISCUSSION/RELIGIONS area, if someone attempts to have a serious discussion, it is invaded by the trolls? Why is it that in the SERIOUS DISCUSSION/RELIGIONS area it's okay to bash Christians, Jews, Muslims or Jews, yet if you don't play along with the Wookie humour then you are a bad person?

Also, have you noticed that the less I post anything directly to a certain individual, the more that person is willing to attack me in their posts? The spend an awful lot of time typing out posts that I scan very briefly, and ignore for the most part. Ever wonder if I am doing it intentionally? Seems like I can really get this person going. We all derive our fun in different ways, and I am just as happy to return any favour in kind.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

But then....wait a second....I am his mirror when posting near him because all that comes from me is just a reflection of what he posts to me and other.
WTF? LOL! What ARE you smoking, Skippy?


I dislike double standards.
Really? You seem to be quite enamored with them yourself...


Why is it that when you and he decides to post drivel, insults, or anything else you are just having a bit o fun, yet when others do it to you, or he, then it is the crime of the century? Why is it that in the SERIOUS DISCUSSION/RELIGIONS area, if someone attempts to have a serious discussion, it is invaded by the trolls? Why is it that in the SERIOUS DISCUSSION/RELIGIONS area it's okay to bash Christians, Jews, Muslims or Jews, yet if you don't play along with the Wookie humour then you are a bad person?
It's quite funny how you think that we're being serious when we call people "heathens" and "blasphemers" and "infidels". Clearly, we're being funny and not taking ANY of it seriously. And thus clearly, you have no sense of humor...


Seems like I can really get this person going.
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! YOU attacked ME, Einstein! LOL!!! There's that infamous Skippy-logic again...

[bbbv3.5]

Well it has been over a month and a half and he looks gone for good....Ya knever know...People can change and Im pretty sure we will see Vox soon.