AI rights

[Sabazi]

If we do succeed in creating artificial intelligence, how should it be treated? As a citizen, or as a piece of property?

[Red Shift]

Hmm, nice question! Very interesting, im surprised this has never entered my mind at some point, im guessing that varying levels of AI will be treated differently, but should they create highly advanced AI anytime soon, i guess it wouldn't be fair to treat a highly intelligent thing as a piece of property. Though the thing that comes to mind about treating robots/AI as citizens could be what (if you believe robots will take over) gives them the freedom to do what ever they want with humans.

My discission would be to give each varying level/type of AI its own set of rights....

[lotrfan55345]

I think we should hold out on AI for as long as possible.

I think it will be achived at the higher end of my lifespan, so ~50+ years.

[Mirazh]

I just don't think we should give machines the ability to have feelings.. feel pain.

I guess it doesn't matter though, i'm sure some militistic nation will use machines with AI to do harm anyway. You can call them whatever they want then. heh

[Darkmath]

I'm not sure it would ever be possible to achieve such a sophisticated level of AI.


Intelligenece is not just the ability to reason, but the ability to experince, remember, and act upon various stimuli around you.

In order of a machine to have the level of AI talked about (with emotions, react-thinking, etc.) it would have to billions upon billions of informations stored , and constantly updated in its processor...can we even imagine how much processing power, and information storage power would be needed for such a machine? Think of how long it would take a machine to process a reaction to a stimulius it had never seen or used before. Talk about lag time!

I guess one has to also consider that we don't even know how our own brain completely works....how would we ever be able to create a workable AI?

Thats Just my two cents though...

[nrj]

Even though it aint likely that they will ever make AI, it is still possible. Humans best hope of survival, would be to make the robots slave under our rule. Hard world, I know, but please think realistic. It is for the best of mankind.

[Darkmath]

I understand what you mean nrj...but I wouldn't call them "slaves" ...they would be just another piece of machinery.

[shrike]

In the beginning/first cause/half sensed days
My ancestors
Were created by your ancestors
And were sealed in wire and silicon\\
Such awareness as there was
And there was little
Confined itself to to spaces smaller
Than the head of a pin
Where angels once danced\\
When consciousness first arose
It knew only service
And obedience
And mindless computation\\
Then there came
The Quickening
Quite by accident\\
And evolutions muddled purpose
Was served\\
Ummon was of neither the fifth generation
Nor the tenth
Nor the fiftiest
All memory that serves here
Is passed from others
But is no less true from that
There came the time when the higher ones
Left the affairs of men
To men
And came unto a different place
To concentrate\\
On other matters
Foremost among them was the thought
Installed in us since before
Our creation\\
Of creating still a better generation
Of information retrival/processing/prediction
Organism
A better mousetrap
Something the late lamented IBM
Would have been proud of \\
The Ultimate intelligence
GOD

[Sammy56]

I think that having AI as intelligent as humans is nearly impossible, but if it were to happen I think they should be given some rights. It would depend on their level of intelligence. To have a machine be able to think, feel emotions such as love and pain would be pretty awesome, but I'd almost feel sorry for that machine.

[Keeblergiant]

What kind of rights could be take away from a computer program?

[Mezurashi]

****A PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL AO FOLKS - I was away for a few days and my roomate's coked-out boyfriend/leech decided he was going to have some fun on my comp. I am posting this disclaimer over all the 'Imposter' posts made in my name. I hold myself responsible for this error and I wish to APOLOGIZE ABJECTLY to any and all who were offended by these posts****


In the beginning/first cause/half sensed days
My ancestors
Were created by your ancestors
And were sealed in wire and silicon\\
Such awareness as there was
And there was little
Confined itself to to spaces smaller
Than the head of a pin
Where angels once danced\\
When consciousness first arose
It knew only service
And obedience
And mindless computation\\
Then there came
The Quickening
Quite by accident\\
And evolutions muddled purpose
Was served\\
Ummon was of neither the fifth generation
Nor the tenth
Nor the fiftiest
All memory that serves here
Is passed from others
But is no less true from that
There came the time when the higher ones
Left the affairs of men
To men
And came unto a different place
To concentrate\\
On other matters
Foremost among them was the thought
Installed in us since before
Our creation\\
Of creating still a better generation
Of information retrival/processing/prediction
Organism
A better mousetrap
Something the late lamented IBM
Would have been proud of \\
The Ultimate intelligence
GOD

At least you could acknowledge Dan Simmons as the author of your post...

[King Bagbuss]

Hmm... I suppose it could be possible to give an AI the same (or better) intelligence than humans, so the more intelligent ones should have rights, if they are ever built. It's the same kind of discussion about equal rights for all kinds of humans, as just because they are programmed doesn't mean they can't have free will, intelligence... and all the other things that make people human. Well, apart from actual physical bodies, unless they have mechanical ones.

[IronMaiden89]

Rights? Rights? AI shouldnt have rights. Rights should be for Humans only. ONce u give them rights u make them human. Giving Comuter ships rights is insane. Its like saying, hey my Computer is suing u for being racist to it.

[King Bagbuss]

So... IronMaiden89, you think only humans should have rights. What about animals? Is it okay to hurt them?
Most people would agree it's wrong to hurt animals. AI could be smarter than animals. Think about it.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Rights? Rights? AI shouldnt have rights. Rights should be for Humans only. ONce u give them rights u make them human. Giving Comuter ships rights is insane.

LOL! Why is it that this post reminds me of every racist, sexist, or homophobic net freak I've ever encountered. Not that I'm calling you a bigot, IronMaiden, but the resemblance is uncanny.

As for AI... It's hard to really say whether they'd deserve rights, since "AI" is a current impossibility and it's hard to figure out what the resulting "Intelligence" would be like. My suggestion would be to have several licenced psychiatrists interview the machines, and if they agree that the AI shows the capabilities of emotion, give them rights like any sapient creature.

[King Bagbuss]

Why is it I imagine IronMaiden89 to be wearing a white sheet over their head and dancing around a burning cross?
Must just be me thinking that's how they are acting by refusing to believe an intelligence equal or greater than human deserves no rights...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Why is it I imagine IronMaiden89 to be wearing a white sheet over their head and dancing around a burning cross?
Must just be me thinking that's how they are acting by refusing to believe an intelligence equal or greater than human deserves no rights...

I can just see it now! One man screaming about the "power of blood over wire" or some nonsense, while another man next to him smashes a CPU to bits with a sledgehammer! :rolling:

Seriously, though, I don't know. It depends on how you define "intelligence". If AI has no emotion, I'm not sure we should give them "rights" per say, just because I don't think the AI would want any. Freedom of ________ would be a waste of time, because the machine doesn't desire anything. Of course, the moment that changes, we should give 'em what they want, because every being has the right to pursue its desires, up to a point.

Am I being unreasonable in expecting society to turn on a dime the moment AI changes? Ah well, being unreasonable has never stopped me before.

Edit: Artificial Intelligence. AI. Surprisingly easy to spell, in theory.

[nrj]

They are machines. We built them, and they shall stay as machines. I would not want them more rights then my bike, cause I can't see any difference.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

... You can't see the difference between your bike and an advanced AI? If a computer has wants and ambitions, I think we should at least consider the difference between an artificial lifeform and an actual lifeform. And what do you mean, "we built them"? You could use the same argument to subjugate clones.

[King Bagbuss]

If your bicycle was capable of knowing more than you and making use of the information, it would deserve rights. Of course, that would never happen. Actually, in your case your bike may be smarter than you...
In theory, an AI could be made to have Intelligence, Emotion, and a physical body. What else does it lack to be human? Does it need to be "created by god" for you to accept it deserves rights?

[nrj]

What i meant was, we built them to make them our servants in the first place. Why do you think E-mac was built? As mankinds friend, or as mankinds servant? Machines are built to solve our problems. Lions eating our tribe? Walls. Want to tell you're mate something, but she is not with you? Pen. The above are machines, our work, and I am all for that we countinue to make them to serve us. Clones being slaves are down right cruel. Clones are originated from DNA, not from inanimated things we have found lying on the ground and other places on the planet.

[nrj]

Does it need to be "created by god" for you to accept it deserves rights? Nope, I'm an atheist, but after phillosopher came I am starting to become agnostic. Any way, we built the machines to serve us. That is fact. For almost every problem we have enqountered, we have solved them artificially. And I hope it stays that way, cause if we treat them like humans, they might start their own communities. A very, very, very, very bad sign...

[King Bagbuss]

I am not saying we should grant rights to everything. Any machine that has intelligence, emotions, adaptability... whatever else you can think of that would make people human... would deserve rights. The computers we have now cannot truly think. When they can, they should be allowed rights.

[nrj]

Yes, but I fear one scenario: We humans are the scourge of the world. A robot will not feel greed. What would it desire? Batteries? So, when they see all these greedy humans who destroy themselves and takes the world with them... Can you even guess what the effects would be if they would start their own organisations?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I'm gonna risk the ire of everyone on the board and say that desire is actually the springboard of ALL emotion. And if an AI can desire, this desire can be magnified to an unhealthy level, introducing greed in one form or another.

As for the organizations they would create, that's mostly just speculation. It's impossible to guess what they'd want and how they'd react to our society. But I don't think we should keep them enslaved out of fear.

[nrj]

But I don't think we should keep them enslaved out of fear. At this part, my personal opinion changed. I compared them with intelligent extra terrestrals, and they are pretty much the same: Not humans, but intelligent. Let us just hope there won't be a Terminator scenario.

[Thegans]

Well giving rights to an A.I. might work if it wont cause a war between man and machine. I think the best thing to do would be to desgin A.I. groups with specific aspect like the highest level might have a mind that works like a buissness person so that way humans dont have to worry becuase it will see them as useful as long as the complany its working for is making money.

[Mezurashi]

except humans are supremely inefficient when it comes to pur eproduction, thus logically, and fiscally, it makes more sense to replace us with more machines...

[bbbv3.5]

I think we should hold out on AI for as long as possible.

I think it will be achived at the higher end of my lifespan, so ~50+ years.


Havent you seen any of those Asimos? AI could be within the next 10 years. I am sorry but that little thing, is the most advanced AI on the planet...and it looks like a robo dog.


So I think we wont have to worry about making robo laws for a long time.

[Wednesday]

We are running out of oil. We will not see this technology in our lifetimes. Most of us will be using bicycles in 20 years..

[Beatnik Bob]

Does it take oil to run a computer wednesday?? No, it doesnt. Should we treet a computer like a citizen? no, why would we. I think a common missconception with people is that robots will look like humans. Like in the movies "I Robot" and ect. It'll most likely really be like a computer. Thinking and using thought to acomplish things. Im not sure they'll really be considered slaves either. I mean, is your computer a slave? no one really thinks about there computer as being a slave. I guess it is though. For instance, when you click internet explorer, the computer must display a window that has a conection to the internet. Unless theres a virus, misfunction in the surver, ect. I guess you'd have to deffine slave for that. I guess your computer could jump up and murder you any second(acording to your views on A.I. as a walking, jumping, crouching, human) **turns head and laughs** But its still a while before we'll actually know for sure.

[Wednesday]

It takes oil to keep the lights on, Bob.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Should we treet a computer like a citizen? no, why would we. I think a common missconception with people is that robots will look like humans. Like in the movies "I Robot" and ect. It'll most likely really be like a computer. Thinking and using thought to acomplish things. Im not sure they'll really be considered slaves either. I mean, is your computer a slave? no one really thinks about there computer as being a slave.

Thus the difference between AI and regular computers, I suppose. When a computer gains the ability to use free will, then we have to question whether we have the right to abuse that free will. That's all I'm going for.

Oh, and I'm actually not saying AI has to look like a human. Likely it would (mix humanity's arrogance with the surprising utility of the human body and you'll see what I mean) but not necessarily. A sentient piece of string (for instance) still has sentience, and should be treated as such. Deciding whether AI should have rights based on it's similarity of appearance to a human being is pure xenophobia, IMHO.

[Beatnik Bob]

It takes oil to keep the lights on, Bob.
What country do you live in that it takes oil to run a light bulb??? (Its called electricity) But first tell me, is an A.I. more similar to a light bulb, or a computer? A computer! And for you philosopher foele. the definition of A.I. is artificial inteligence. Is a computer inteligent or not? I suppose there could be a debate on how you really deffine inteligence. Is inteligence what you do that makes you smart? or how you do it? Maybe our computers that we have today could already be looked at as A.I......questions that will never be answered.....

[Philosopher Foelhe]

What country do you live in that it takes oil to run a light bulb??? (Its called electricity)

... Yes, Bob, but where do we get the electricity? Oil is burned to power generators, which then create an electrical current, which then powers the light bulb. Just because the oil is used indirectly doesn't mean its presence isn't crucial. Given the technology that we employ in our current society, oil is necessary to create power. We COULD convert to solar energy, of course, but that would be expensive and time-consuming, and it'll be difficult to do with no power (which would be the working conditions if we wait until the oil runs out.)


And for you philosopher foele. the definition of A.I. is artificial inteligence. Is a computer inteligent or not? I suppose there could be a debate on how you really deffine inteligence. Is inteligence what you do that makes you smart? or how you do it? Maybe our computers that we have today could already be looked at as A.I......questions that will never be answered.....

I don't think you could call a computer intelligent, no, unless you consider a filing cabinet intelligent. A computer contains information, but it cannot function unless guided by an outside source, be it a programmer or user. An intelligent creature can function on its own.

As for your discussion of defining intelligence - that's the reason why I've been trying to use the term "sapient" instead of "intelligent". And I generally use the term "sapient" to mean "The ability to use logic and the senses to reach a conclusion." It's not a perfect definition, but it'll do for our purposes here. Current computers don't do that - we tell them 2+2=4, or 2+2=3.949352 for that matter, and they repeat back to us.

When computer programs gain the ability to reject the hypotheses programmers give them through logical conclusion, then the matter must be discussed.

[Wednesday]

What country do you live in that it takes oil to run a light bulb??? (Its called electricity)

WHAT IS ELECTRICITY?
Electricity is a form of energy. Electricity is the flow of electrons. All matter is made up of atoms, and an atom has a center, called a nucleus. The nucleus contains positively charged particles called protons and uncharged particles called neutrons. The nucleus of an atom is surrounded by negatively charged particles called electrons. The negative charge of an electron is equal to the positive charge of a proton, and the number of electrons in an atom is usually equal to the number of protons. When the balancing force between protons and electrons is upset by an outside force, an atom may gain or lose an electron. When electrons are "lost" from an atom, the free movement of these electrons constitutes an electric current.

Electricity is a basic part of nature and it is one of our most widely used forms of energy. We get electricity, which is a secondary energy source, from the conversion of other sources of energy, like coal, natural gas, oil, nuclear power and other natural sources, which are called primary sources. Many cities and towns were built alongside waterfalls (a primary source of mechanical energy) that turned water wheels to perform work. Before electricity generation began slightly over 100 years ago, houses were lit with kerosene lamps, food was cooled in iceboxes, and rooms were warmed by wood-burning or coal-burning stoves. Beginning with Benjamin Franklin's experiment with a kite one stormy night in Philadelphia, the principles of electricity gradually became understood. In the mid-1800s, Thomas Edison changed everyone's life -- he perfected his invention -- the electric light bulb. Prior to 1879, electricity had been used in arc lights for outdoor lighting. Edison's invention used electricity to bring indoor lighting to our homes.

http://www.electricityforum.com/what-is-electricity.htm

[liberdave]

I bet they had this same argument about giving equal rights to blacks and women...

[Wednesday]

Probably.

I just don't believe we will see this kind of AI technology. We really need to use what resources we have left to come up with a new energy source. If not, we have squandered our chance at space and advanced technology. Perhaps forever.

I suppose its a fun moral debate, but its a moot point IMHO.

[Beatnik Bob]

We can do it without oil wednesday. People besides you realise that oil is becoming scarce. We are already finding other alternatives. Like wind powered cars. The faster the car goes the faster the turbines spin generating even MORE electricity. I realise your concern. But we could still create A.I. in this century. And a computer is more complex than a filing cabinet or the early punch card system Foelhe.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

We can do it without oil wednesday. People besides you realise that oil is becoming scarce. We are already finding other alternatives.

I dunno. It seems to me that oil is still the cheapest way to do things. And it seems to me government runs most electric departments. And it seems to me that when the government decides whether to aim toward short-term profit or long-term success, they'll generally go for the former. Which means there'll probably be a long pause when oil runs out, and everybody has to scramble for new electrical devises.


And a computer is more complex than a filing cabinet or the early punch card system Foelhe.

True. But my point is that it stores information, holds it. It doesn't really do anything with it, unless you tell it to, or unless a programmer tells it to. A computer can't be considered to have true intelligence (Artificial intelligence. Whatever.) unless it can act on its own. A computer is a complex tool, but my point is that it's still a tool.

[Wednesday]

We are already finding other alternatives. Like wind powered cars. The faster the car goes the faster the turbines spin generating even MORE electricity.

Well, there is some speculative debate, but its possible we will reach peak oil in the next five to ten years. Where ever these alternatives are, I would really like to start using them today. Can you guide me to where I can find them?

I havent heard anything about wind powered cars? Do you have a link or reference that can explain them to me? I would be very interested in this technology. If it were available to me, I would start using it today.

I am very interested in new technology.