Denomination vs Unity

[gracestamper]

theres alot of controversy on the different religions and which one is right. I think as long as we all the worship the same loving God, the rest is mostly just details. And as long as separation of church and state exists, we can't achieve the Unity in Christ that the bible calls for.
So which is more important, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, or unity in Christ? :prin:

[DontBeAfraid]

Why dont you just make a poll with christian, non christian and no religion..... You want unity of the people but only if under your religion.

We tried not having seperation of church and state it resulted in many innocent people being tortured to death.

[gracestamper]

well, ok, it works for everything, including Satan is controlled by God, so I suppose I'm right anyway.

Church and state will go, as will other Constitutional rights because we're walking straight into a NWO, and all the rules change. The justice system, the currency will become the RFID, we enforce martial law, use the Rex 84 program should RFIDs be a problem...We've already started disarming other countries, UN won't touch us because we control thier money too, and we'll have a world dictator.

Besides, every leader on the planet wants NWO, no one wants to do it. So, no one does anything to us while we do what we want. :2thumbs:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

theres alot of controversy on the different religions and which one is right. I think as long as we all the worship the same loving God, the rest is mostly just details.

Agreed. Let's face it, a Christian who practices a warm and compassionate version of Christianity has far more in common with a warm and compassionate Wiccan/Judaist/whatever than a fire-and-brimstone Christian. Frankly, I think the reason so many Christians get fired up about other religions is because of this - if you consider Christianity the "good" religion, you're a "good" person, but if you realize all religions have the ability to be good, you have to look at your own beliefs rather than the title you wear. That view might not be so flattering.


And as long as separation of church and state exists, we can't achieve the Unity in Christ that the bible calls for.

So which is more important, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, or unity in Christ?

This, however, is damn silly. Faith is about emotion and belief, the same warmth and compassion. The church is about rules. You cannot replace faith with the church. Any attempt at such will not go unpunished. [Paraphrase DBA's point here.]

I don't know why so many people think handing the church the reins of power will make any spiritual belief any easier. Mostly it'll just enforce the "details" you mention in your post. This will alienate other faiths, which you rightly say aren't really any different, but will be treated as such. This will make unity far more difficult to reach.

So you see, if you really want Unity in Christ, the best way to get it is to keep the church far, far away from the government. :2thumbs:

[gracestamper]

my point exactly. Keep the church far away from the government. See, the church isn't the one who invented the RFIDs or built the Rex 84 program. So who would you feel safer with the government, or the church? Easy enough for me. I don't trust our Uncle Sam any farther than I can throw him. This is exactly why separation of church and state has to go. For me personally, I'd rather see the government fall apart than my country church with a congregation of about 45. :bondage:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

First of all - I'm sorry, I'm horribly out of touch. Could you explain what RFIDs and Rex 84 are? Or direct me to someplace online I could figure this out?

But it doesn't really matter, because secondly... huh?

I'm sorry, I thought you were suggesting the church be allowed to outlaw abortions and persecute homosexuals. Who the hell is suggesting handing EVERYTHING over to the preachers? Where did THIS come from?

Do you honestly believe clergymen know the damnedest thing about running the country? I know our leaders tend to make it look like a team drunken orangutans could run the country, but I have the sneaking suspicion that things are far more complicated than that.

Besides, do you really think whoever ends up in power is just going to toss whatever programs you don't like out the window? I'm sorry, but that's almost dangerously naive. Oh, maybe an actual miracle will occur, and the person behind the wheel will be an idealistic, pious street preacher, but consider...

1) People who spend all their time and energy pursuing a position of power are generally inclined to use that power. Church-man or not. How many times have you heard a high-ranking politician say something like, "I have spent years of exhausting work and millions of dollars to reach this position... all so I could create peace on Earth and watch puppies frollic in the grass!" Hmm?

2) Power corrupts. It's an age-old saying. Even if we do get your idealistic, pious street preacher, what about all the other people who have risen to power and are now pressuring him with their own agendas? How long can he remain stong under the constant pressure? And even if he manages to hold out, what about the next guy? Is he gonna be another idealistic, pious street preacher? Can he stand against the same pressure the other man fought against?

You are basing your faith in a church-run system entirely on the insanely unlikely possibility that every head honcho you elect ever will have the restraint and the willpower of a veritable saint! It's like Russian Roulette on a national scale!

I'm sorry. That was a lot of italics. But it had to be done.

[Sammy56]

I think as long as we all the worship the same loving God, the rest is mostly just details.
The problem here is that these details have spawned everything from small arguments, to wars and mass killings. The details are what make all the difference.


So which is more important, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, or unity in Christ?
Separation of church and state and freedom of religion. I say this because most major religions do not believe in Christ. Christians believe in him, and (correct me if I'm wrong) Muslims see him a prophet. Under a system like that, the religions that did not follow Christ would be oppressed. This system would only be fair to Christians and that is what makes it, to me, a bad idea. If we did end separation of church and state we would no longer have a government where everyone is equal in the eyes of the law. What about atheists or agnostics? Hindus, Wiccans, and pagans? You may not agree with their ideas gracestamper, but they should have the same rights as you, regardless of what they believe. The governments of the world have many problems, but to totally end separation of church and state in all of the governments in the world would be one of the worst things you could do to an unstable world.


Keep the church far away from the government
This is exactly why separation of church and state has to go.
Ok, I'm lost here. These two ideas seem to contradict each other. You want the church to stay away from the government, but you want to end separation of church and state? You can't have both at the same time.


I'd rather see the government fall apart than my country church with a congregation of about 45.
Now, I know that it would be hard on you if something were to happen to your church, but if it did, it would only affect 45 people. If a major government like the United States or Great Britain collapsed, it would probably affect the entire world, and this probably would not be in a positive way.

Philosopher, here is links to info on Rex 84 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84) and RFID's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID)

[RavenWhitefang]

well, ok, it works for everything, including Satan is controlled by God, so I suppose I'm right anyway.

Typical christian attitude. I dont believe in the christian god nor any of its religious dogma. I dislike christians who wear blinders and think that everything has to do with them. Its rather cocky and arrogant.


Besides, every leader on the planet wants NWO, no one wants to do it. So, no one does anything to us while we do what we want.

No one does anything because of the fear that is instilled by a government out of control with a monkey at its head. Who wouldnt be scared to do something if you had a nuke pointed at your face.

The problem that is being faced is the fact that so many people are sheep. No one cares to disrupt the system because they dont care. Go to work, Pay the bills, Keep food in your belly, and a roof over your head..that is what the average person is dealing with. Very few people delve into the deeper story. No one cares to because it doesnt affect them personally...it doesnt put food on the table, pay the bills or keep their kids healthy. In essence, its a dick swinging contest between world governments...religion is just another nasty insert that makes things worse. Same ole same ole "My god is better than your god" mentality. Mainstream religion is useless in this facet. It only breeds more sheep.

[pablo]

as the bible quotes, we are all sheep :gtfo: yeah right if your weak minded and hollow to all things real.i agree with raven white fang, the only thing that i believe in is, me myself and i...actually that is not correct it's me my wife and kids - there you go :strt: religous STORIES are for the weak of mind and a head in the sand attitude gets them no where, it's out dated and they know it, look how they are trying all these new ideas to modernize the church, ie theme parks devoted to religion? theres one in america thats just won the right to not pay taxes :amaz:
pablo out.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Goddammit, Pablo! Why is it that every time there's a moderately serious religious discussion ANYWHERE, some idiot has to jump into the fray and swing his dick around?

Although you did kinda prove RavenWhitefang right, since your arrogant cavalier attitude is no different than any high-and-mighty Christian. So I guess we owe you thanks for that. Baaaah.

[Sammy56]

Goddammit, Pablo! Why is it that every time there's a moderately serious religious discussion ANYWHERE, some idiot has to jump into the fray and swing his dick around?
I was wondering the exact same thing. We finally get a thread where people are having a real disscussion instead of arguing like children, and you just had to come along and ruin it. Thanks a million.

[pablo]

:gtfo: you two need to read with the intent to take on board what is written. i am in no way a religous person nor do i come here to bring it down to a childish level and as for 'swinging me dick' i find that offensive and VERY immature. how is what i wrote childish? i stated the obvious and only reitterated what as been said before, yet you two feel i am treading on toes here :nibble: sorry for being human with human beliefs, my opinion is my own that is my right, i do not take kindly to offensive and stupid replies, you are the children. the post talks of seperation within the government and church - you could never do this for they are linked by history and the higher order (not heavenly) one tries to balance the other, depending from which country you originate, america as no chance it's to embroiled in it's own beliefs to back up to start again so to speek, britain's going the same way, russias turned the corner and religion as probably taken control there, only because it's government as imploded over the years and turned itself into a mickey mouse company. there you go...

pablo out.

[Sammy56]

i am in no way a religous person
Thats fine pablo, most people here are not. But this is a religious forum where we debate religion. Coming in here and saying we are all stupid for what we think is what ticks us off.


yeah right if your weak minded and hollow to all things real
religous STORIES are for the weak of mind
It is stuff like this that makes us mad. Instead of coming in here and insulting people, why don't you tell them why you think they are wrong? You have your own opinion about it and that is great, but please do not be nasty to others just because their opinion differs from yours. I do not think religion is for the weak of mind. It is a way for people to explore themselves and their spirituality if they wish to. Like Raven, I cannot stand people who are so arrogant that they think their religion is the only right one. You said you agree with that. So instead of cutting people down, why don't you tell us why you think religion is stupid?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

as for 'swinging me dick' i find that offensive and VERY immature

*sigh* I was actually aiming for immature, since it seemed appropriate. But I do apologize if I offended you.


i stated the obvious and only reitterated what as been said before, yet you two feel i am treading on toes here

First of all, you did not state the obvious. You stated your opinion. Secondly, you stated it in an offensive manner - you basically accused all people with any faith of being fools. Which is frankly ridiculous.


sorry for being human with human beliefs, my opinion is my own that is my right

Your opinion is your own right, true. That argument could be used to defend bigotry of any kind, but I guess that's the risk of free will.

Of course, you don't have to shove your opinions down our throats. If you were going to debate how dumb theists are, (Which, oh yeah! Different thread would be great! Thanks!) you should actually try to debate, as opposed to just merrily shouting about how right you are. That's just going to piss people off.

But what really pissed ME off was your hypocrisy. RavenWhitefang actually brought up the "My god is better than your god" argument, and pointed out how silly it was. You agreed with her, and then MADE THE SAME DAMN ARGUMENT. I'm sorry, but a "My lack-of-god is better than your god" post is not an improvement on the general scheme.


the post talks of seperation within the government and church - you could never do this for they are linked by history

Agreed here, to a point. You say we could "never" do this, which I disagree with - it's an uphill struggle, yes, but I think it's manageable, in time. Still, what gracestamper is suggesting is to lose what separation we have managed. And I think that would be a huge mistake.

[pablo]

look - i have got off on the wrong bus to start with i think, sorry to everyone i don't do it to offend (honestly) i feel very strongly about religion to the extent that it is full of bigots and fraudsters just like life in general, but thats for another post. of course people can have there beliefs just like i do i am not that thick skinned nor ignorant as you like to call me. lol. i do feel with a passion that most people who do believe in whatever are foolish - thats not to be taken as i am right you are wrong it's my opinion thats all...and yes i do understand that a lot of the worlds population have little else to fall back on and or believe in, so i do understand what you are saying, this is a place for debate (i thought) not do it our way or go away. i know i am the newbie here but i have seen it before on other sites, you all know each other relatively speaking and thats good. i would like to become a team player not an outsider - thank you very much. all i can say is sorry for being so abrupt and i will watch how i word my replies.

pablo out.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

:2thumbs: Well, welcome to the party then! I'm pretty new myself, so I'm hardly a good welcoming commitee, but I'm sure everyone's glad to have ya here. Sorry if we jumped on you a little hard.

Anyway, to make sure we don't get too off-subject - separation of church and state? Eh? Eh?

[Sammy56]

i know i am the newbie here but i have seen it before on other sites, you all know each other relatively speaking and thats good. i would like to become a team player not an outsider - thank you very much. all i can say is sorry for being so abrupt and i will watch how i word my replies.
It is good to have you here pablo. Do not worry about being a newbie, I've only been seriously posting here for about a month. Hope you can have fun debating with us. :D


Anyway, to make sure we don't get too off-subject - separation of church and state? Eh? Eh?
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#Advocacy) is a good article from wikipedia (I love that site so much!). It has arguments for and against by both secular and religious groups.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Here is a good article from wikipedia (I love that site so much!). It has arguments for and against by both secular and religious groups.

Hmm...

Well, it's a shame there isn't much under the secular pro-church and state side, since I was really looking forward to that bit. But it mostly boils down to, "Hey, whatever helps us in the polls."

And of course there's the "ethics" argument, which ignores the fact that non-religious types can be ethical. Why do people keep making that mistake, anyway?

Beyond that, you basically have religious groups vying for their own power. It's a good article (thanks, Sammy!) but there's nothing particularly earth-shattering, or even anything to make you pause and go, "Aha! New idea!"

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

2) Power corrupts. It's an age-old saying. Even if we do get your idealistic, pious street preacher, what about all the other people who have risen to power and are now pressuring him with their own agendas? How long can he remain stong under the constant pressure? And even if he manages to hold out, what about the next guy? Is he gonna be another idealistic, pious street preacher? Can he stand against the same pressure the other man fought against?
I couldn't help but instantly think of Pope John Paul I when I read your post...

[liberdave]

The seperation of church and state was the singular most important social development ever. You can not run a system based of off superstition and myth. A democracy can not be a theocracy (by definition even!). More over, to anticipate a future argument, while I do agree that our laws are based off of old Judaic Law, they are also about the same for all areas of the world. (you know the whole don't do unto others as you woudn't have them do to you?) Once we can abolish such legal restraints (i.e. marriage, drug laws, victimless crimes etc.), can we truely enjoy liberty.
*eyes tear as flag waves triumphantly*

[gracestamper]

You're exactly right dave.
We don't follow through with what we've been called to do. How many of us actually love the enemy? Can anyone in this forum actually say they can forgive the WORLD? I can. I mean everyone from Charlie Manson to Saddam Hussien. When you see what Uncle Sam has in store for all of us Manson starts to look like a teddy bear. That puts us in need of a new justice system doesn't it? Only God is to seek revenge, we are to forgive as God forgave us. So if we start releasing serial killers, who do you think they'll go after? The ones who put them in prison for the last 20 years or the one who released them. Easy enough. So, you take a family of criminals and balance it out with a family of cops and see what happens. It starts to make things look more balanced. My family has hated cops for years. My partners fought crime most of his life. So I stand for the church, he represents, **something else**
theres your church and state united.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

How many of us actually love the enemy? Can anyone in this forum actually say they can forgive the WORLD? I can. I mean everyone from Charlie Manson to Saddam Hussien.

With a few exceptions (which I'm working on), I can. When I hear in the news that a murderer is going to trial, it makes me think that something has gone horribly wrong with that person. Not in a "It's not his fault! He's a victim of society!" way, but definitely something is wrong. I always want to find the person who did this, and try to teach them compassion and hope and love. And I'm not even a Christian.


When you see what Uncle Sam has in store for all of us Manson starts to look like a teddy bear. That puts us in need of a new justice system doesn't it?

Well... I don't know about this. First of all, I'm not sure the US government is screwed up to that level. Secondly, have you ever heard the quote, "Democracy is the worst government system in the world, unless you compare it to all those other systems"? Occasionally our government sucks, because all governments suck. A theocracy is not going to change this.


So if we start releasing serial killers, who do you think they'll go after? The ones who put them in prison for the last 20 years or the one who released them. Easy enough.

Incorrect. Most serial killers are damn clever, or they'd be caught before killing enough victims to be considered "serial killers". Also, I believe a lot of their killings are sexually charged, which means they won't go after anyone who put them behind bars unless that person matches thier victim profile. (Ah, pseudo-psychology at it's finest! I've never actually studied Criminal Justice or Psychology, people.) On TV you get a lot of arresting officers becoming victims, but that's TV.


My family has hated cops for years. My partners fought crime most of his life. So I stand for the church, he represents, **something else**
theres your church and state united.

Yes. On a PERSONAL level. Our lives are all about taking the things that matter to us and finding a way to balance that. If the government suddenly became, I don't know, Buddhist, would that make it difficult for you to combine your church life with your partner's job? Probably. And if you put Christianity in charge of the government, Buddhists would have trouble with the same.

[gracestamper]

with all due respect, when people are given only two options that really aren't options, i.e. RFIDs vs concentration camps, and government vs God, its a tricky thing, because they THINK they have a choice. They don't. It all happens and there's not a soul on the planet who can stop it. And no one will have a problem with any of it. No rapture, no mark of the beast, and this isn't the end of the age. I changed the bible. :prin:

[liberdave]

with all due respect, when people are given only two options that really aren't options, i.e. RFIDs vs concentration camps, and government vs God, its a tricky thing, because they THINK they have a choice. They don't. It all happens and there's not a soul on the planet who can stop it. And no one will have a problem with any of it. No rapture, no mark of the beast, and this isn't the end of the age. I changed the bible. :prin: I seriously can't see the US people letting the Gov't place folks in a concentration camp for not accepting RFIDs. There are simply too many religious groups in power to let that happen, just search the Freemasons to see. Secondly, both religion AND government are forms of control. Religion is actually the SAME THING as government, let's look at the simularities.
1. They both tout laws.
2. They both have punishments for breaking these laws.
3. They both claim to help society.
4. They both have leaders.
5. They both would be nothing without the peoples support.
6. They both declare wars, hold armies (well, until recently anyway)
7. They both attempt to control your life through coercion.
8. They both have a motto to be said daily (i.e. lord's prayer/Pledge of Allegiance)
9. They both hold codified ceremonies.
10. They both try to "think" for the people.
11. People will die for either.
Hell, I could go on all night, the point is Religion is what you had before mankind figured out that they could think for themselves and morality wasn't a divine occurance. Government is just the societal replacement for a mother and the need for protection, and an ethical guidline. Once man realizes that only a few laws need to be enforced on a regular basis, I believe we could dump both the crutches of religion and an overfed government and move on to pure unfettered liberty.
*again with the tear and the flag waving*

[gracestamper]

okay you don't like my ideas, well what seems to be your solution? :gtfo:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

First of all, liberdave - I should just point out that if a religion is correct, it isn't really comparable to a government. Which is a big "what if" anyway, but I thought I should point it out. Otherwise, you're spot on. I actually remember someone (was it on this forum? Don't remember...) referring to American patriotism as a secular religion.

And on RFIDs... concentration camps are ridiculous and would never fly, but you wouldn't really need them, would you? Just slowly cut anyone who doesn't have them off from society. After all, social security numbers haven't always been around, and now you can't join a school, get a job, or do much of anything without them.


okay you don't like my ideas, well what seems to be your solution?

Listen. Be wise. Don't be fooled by lies or distracted by what's not important. Help the system on a personal level, rather than trying to dismantle it and start over.

There's no such thing as the perfect government. Entropy will slowly corrupt and destroy any system, no matter how noble or high-minded it's origins. Hell, back when America had just become a nation, we were under the control of a bunch of wise, passionate men who were daring enough to risk everything to do what they considered right. Now what do we have? A bunch of raving billionaires with too much time on their hands.

Any theocracy will be dragged down kicking and screaming, and it'll take the church with it. Yet another reason to keep the separation of church and state as solid as we can make it - if you still have any faith at all in the church, this is not a path you want to take.

[gracestamper]

No there is not a perfect government, but when we start finding articles like this, this it means there is alot of room for improvement.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html

Since we haven't had a rapture, these chips aren't the mark of the beast, and you don't get an antichrist either.
Locking some one out of the system is going to make them steal, people have to eat, thats reality. Cashless is the only way to go, these chips will take a bite out of crime to the point we won't need cops.
And when these secrets start surfacing, people will face an ultimate choice. They'll seek religion, or they'll go nuts. Re-education will be needed for alot of people. And it will happen, this plan has been underway for a long time. The RFIDs go back to WW2 and the link above was origionally brought about in 1984.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States. {Emphasis mine}

Lemme just slap myself - but I'm actually gonna side with the government here for a second. Yeah, I know, "concentration camps" "Antichrist" "government conspiracy" blah blah blah, but if we DO end up in a situation where Martial Law needs to be implemented, I would very much like the criminals who are taking advantage of this obviously confusing and fearful time to be put away somewhere safe where they can't harm other people. Does that make me a Nazi-worshipping bastard?

I mean, honest referall to someone who knows - what's the difference between a concentration camp and a jail? Besides it's historical uses, of course. I always thought the only difference was that the prisoners could interact and walk around at will, just not leave.

I know, I know, it's possible the government is lying (GASP!) about the potential use of these camps. And if someone wants to make a nifty conspiracy theory about it, more power to 'em. But it makes sense as it is, doesn't it? Martial Law is serious, and we should be prepared for that eventuality. And if the government is preparing, rock on.

Anyway, way too much babbling about that. Moving on.


No rapture, no mark of the beast, and this isn't the end of the age.

I should point out that IF God intends to end the earth, the best you can do is get out of his way. Having a religious group in power will not change this - they'll be warped to wherever they need to be.

Ever read the Left Behind series? I'm willing to bet you have. In the book, the Pope joins up with the Antichrist right away. Now, I can here some of you at home, saying, "But Foelhe, the Pope joined the Antichrist because Tim LaHaye is an anti-Catholic bigot!" And you'd be right. But the point we can take from this is that we have no idea what darkness lurks in the hearts of men, no matter the title they wear or the fealty they claim. And that I get really poetic at stupid times.


And when these secrets start surfacing, people will face an ultimate choice. They'll seek religion, or they'll go nuts. Re-education will be needed for alot of people. And it will happen, this plan has been underway for a long time.

I've been trying really hard to approach this from your viewpoint. But as much as I want to do so, your insistence that the Antichrist is coming RIGHT NOW is making it hard. Why does everyone think this? People talk about this time period as if it's the worst that has ever come, but I don't really think so at all. Anybody like to give me a hand here?

[gracestamper]

tell me how you feel about the RFIDs? These are the real issue. Most people won't want them, I support them.
We aren't getting a rapture because I took it. Without a rapture, these implants aren't the mark of the beast, the world leader isn't going to be the antichrist, and this isn't the end of the world. :prin:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

tell me how you feel about the RFIDs? These are the real issue.

These are not even remotely the real issue. The real issue is whether the church is fit to take over the government. YOU were the one that started this thread, weren't you? I'm sorry I was distracted by the concentration camps, but there you go.

But since you asked so nicely, I'll tell you. I don't like the idea. Not because it would be the Mark of the Beast or anything like that, but because I like my privacy and that would seriously cut into it. I keep thinking of "Minority Report", where the main character can't go anywhere without some hologram popping up and trying to sell him Pez. Yeah, that was a retinal scanner, but it would be much simpler with a microchip.


We aren't getting a rapture because I took it.

LOL! That was fast! How did you do that? And here I thought you guys thought God's word was immutable.

[gracestamper]

theres ONE person who can change anything. That false prophet you've heard of...such blasphemies!
I took your rapture when I took extreme measures to protect the two witnesses of the tribulation. When I idd this, I crossed over. The beast who was and now is not. :prin:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

theres ONE person who can change anything.

Jesus of Nazareth? God? The fact that this prophesy is in God's "holy book" means they probably want it to happen.


That false prophet you've heard of...such blasphemies!

Again, who? The Antichrist? What are you talking about?


I took your rapture when I took extreme measures to protect the two witnesses of the tribulation. When I idd this, I crossed over.

... Gracestamper, you're starting to sound like Jake. What witnesses? When did this happen? What are you talking about?

You sound like you're claiming you single-handedly stopped Armageddon. Please, please tell me you don't think that. That would be arrogant and foolhardy, if not downright insane.

[gracestamper]

The difference between Jake and I is that Jake claims to be the messiah, I do NOT. I claim to be something else. See when you have this beast with seven heads and 10 horns crying at the altar for those two witnesses, well, the Gods pissed off, and yes, He does get pissed. Who would be the undoing of these two olive trees? The Antichrist. So in order to change thier fate, and protect them from the Antichrist, I had to change the Antichrists fate as well.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

... Let's make this simple.

1) Who are the two disciples?

2) Who is the Antichrist?

3) HOW DO YOU KNOW?!?

4) What did you do to "change their destiny"?

And when I said you sounded like Jake, I meant that you were talking vaguely and confusingly about your "role" in it all. It wasn't meant to be a perfect comparision.

[gracestamper]

... Let's make this simple.

1) Who are the two disciples?

2) Who is the Antichrist?

3) HOW DO YOU KNOW?!?

4) What did you do to "change their destiny"?

And when I said you sounded like Jake, I meant that you were talking vaguely and confusingly about your "role" in it all. It wasn't meant to be a perfect comparision.


The two witnesses are church deacons at my church, not exactly sackcloth, but far from fashionable.

The Antichrist is of US intelligence, not a sandrat like so many thought he would be. He's attended Oxford Law school, Served in the US Marine Corps, a very successful law enforcement officer, this gives you two horns like that of a lamb. (peace officer)

I changed the destiny of these people through God and His word, through faith and prayer. Only this could defeat any of it.

I know because I've met all three of these men, the Antichrist, and the two witnesses. I know because I am the false prophet. But how can I be a false prophet if what I'm saying is right?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Well... you'd be wrong then.

If Christianity is correct, and Revelations is correct, then the Antichrist WILL slay the two disciples. Either you've got the wrong men, or you didn't do as good a job of changing their destiny as you suspect. I'm sorry, but do you really believe God couldn't forsee one woman who would stand in the way of Armageddon? Maybe you did stop it... for now. But if the prophecies of Revelation are going to come true, you didn't stop it forever.

Of course, if Christianity is wrong, or if most of the Bible is right but Revelations is the result of too much wine before bed, this is all an incredibly moot point. I feel the need to point this out.

... And how the hell did we get onto this, anyway? We were talking about separation of church and state. If you'd like to make a new thread about your experiences with the disciples, I'll drop by and discuss further, but let's try to get back onto the original topic.

[liberdave]

okay you don't like my ideas, well what seems to be your solution? :gtfo: What do you mean? My solution is an infinite gap between state and religion. Regardless of the validity of religion, I think the need for this seperation is very apperant.

I should just point out that if a religion is correct, it isn't really comparable to a government. What do you mean by correct? Like, objectively correct? Well fuck, if a religion is correct then no, we would'nt need government. But we do. Sooo.... What was your point? Humans feel the need to conform to an existing set of morals and ethics. Religion and government supply these.

referring to American patriotism as a secular religion wow... i could see that. I would use the word paradigm to describe that though.

and gracestamper, it's hard to take someone seriously when they speak of themselves in a divine or supernatural manner, unless an agreed upon language is established. I would suggest this website for an introduction to the divine.

http://www.occultforums.com

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Well... if I'd known you were about to post, I'd've waited ten minutes. Bloody hell.


What do you mean by correct? Like, objectively correct? Well fuck, if a religion is correct then no, we would'nt need government. But we do. Sooo.... What was your point?

My point? I don't know if it could be defined as a point, as such. I only said this because you came off somewhat... high-and-mighty in your post. And I wanted to point out that there was a possibility some religion was right. I've seen way too many Christians, way too many atheists fall into this mental trap of "I'm right, you're wrong, no more discussion". Sorry if that comes off as preachy, but it bugs me.

(I guess I could argue that we would need government if God existed, but that argument is being dragged out elsewhere, so nevermind.)

[liberdave]

My point? I don't know if it could be defined as a point, as such. I only said this because you came off somewhat... high-and-mighty in your post. And I wanted to point out that there was a possibility some religion was right. I've seen way too many Christians, way too many atheists fall into this mental trap of "I'm right, you're wrong, no more discussion". Sorry if that comes off as preachy, but it bugs me.
*wrings hands together menacingly*Mwwah ha ha.. I see I have caught you in my "both realities are correct" paradidm. I love this argument...

To quote the Great Hassan i Sabbah (Old Man of the Mountain) "Nothing is true, everything is permited."

Maybe before starting a discussion, we should all decide on a starting point. (Could I suggest agreance on a definition?)
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Fact
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/True
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Truth
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Absolute
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reality
for starters?
Let's follow this logic...
P1) If something exhibits truth, it works consistently without any known deviation.
P2) Somethings that were known to be true showed no deviation until closer inspection. (i.e. a flat earth)
P3)If something exhibits truth, it may eventualy exhibit non-truth.
P4)Truth exhibits no absolutness.
Concl. If no truth exhibits absoluteness, then the possibillites of absolute truth exists not!
I think I prefer the 3rd definition of the word "Truth" aka "Subjective Reality"

[gracestamper]

Well... you'd be wrong then.

If Christianity is correct, and Revelations is correct, then the Antichrist WILL slay the two disciples. Either you've got the wrong men, or you didn't do as good a job of changing their destiny as you suspect. I'm sorry, but do you really believe God couldn't forsee one woman who would stand in the way of Armageddon? Maybe you did stop it... for now. But if the prophecies of Revelation are going to come true, you didn't stop it forever.

Of course, if Christianity is wrong, or if most of the Bible is right but Revelations is the result of too much wine before bed, this is all an incredibly moot point. I feel the need to point this out.

... And how the hell did we get onto this, anyway? We were talking about separation of church and state. If you'd like to make a new thread about your experiences with the disciples, I'll drop by and discuss further, but let's try to get back onto the original topic.


think again........those two witnesses are


SAVED BY GRACE!!!! :bondage:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

*wrings hands together menacingly*Mwwah ha ha.. I see I have caught you in my "both realities are correct" paradidm. I love this argument...

LOL! I'm afraid not. My argument is less, "Believe in both realities" and more "Respect those who believe in either reality." I'm afraid I can't agree that God both does and does not exist.

But your theory intrigues me. I'd like to get this thread back on track, but I don't suppose you could point me to another thread, for the purpose of arguing Absolute Reality vs. Subjective Reality? Much obliged.


think again........those two witnesses are SAVED BY GRACE!!!!

Says the false prophet!

Seriously though. Who told you this? Did God come to you in a vision and say you had turned the stream of destiny, or what?

Edit: Damn cut and paste! Never works properly.

[gracestamper]

LOL! I'm afraid not. My argument is less, "Believe in both realities" and more "Respect those who believe in either reality." I'm afraid I can't agree that God both does and does not exist.

But your theory intrigues me. I'd like to get this thread back on track, but I don't suppose you could point me to another thread, for the purpose of arguing Absolute Reality vs. Subjective Reality? Much obliged.



Says the false prophet!

Seriously though. Who told you this? Did God come to you in a vision and say you had turned the stream of destiny, or what?

Edit: Damn cut and paste! Never works properly.




this thread is exactly on track, brainiac!
I started this thread, remember?
I get my answers in dreams.
Again this thread is ON TRACK. UNITY, everything is controlled by God, even Satan, even Hell and that devilish false prophet.
We can't love God whom we cannot see if we can't love His people that we can see.
This means ALL religions are correct, even the new age religions that say man is God.
We are created in His image, we are to make ourselves Christlike, can you figure it out now? :Bott:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

this thread is exactly on track, brainiac!
I started this thread, remember?

When this thread started, we were talking about the separation of church and state. Then we spent several posts talking about RFIDs. And then we got into a discussion of how you had stopped Armageddon. That is one crazy track.

I know you started this thread. And it is completely within your rights to discuss whatever you want on pretty much every thread, so long as it didn't break the rules the mods have set up. But it's in my rights as well. I could spend the next four pages talking about rodeo clowns and their dating lives, and so long as I could tie it in well to the subject at hand, I'm sure no one would complain too bitterly.

But you shouldn't. And you know why? Because we're here to discuss issues. And if your focus is jumping around like a grasshopper on crack, it's hard to resolve any of the issues that come up (as much as anything is EVER resolved online).

I don't really know what the subject IS anymore. Even looking back at the posts written before this. So, I'd be grateful if you'd tell me what we're focusing on.


I get my answers in dreams.

... I hate to say this, but are you sure those dreams are sent from God? Maybe your psyche is playing head-games with you.


This means ALL religions are correct, even the new age religions that say man is God.

Well, I agree, but I'm not really sure what this has to do with the rest of the thread.


We are created in His image, we are to make ourselves Christlike, can you figure it out now?

ROFLMAO!

You say we're created in His image, we should be Christlike... and then you add a smiley-face mooning me?!? Best. Image. EVER!

I hate to step out after laughing at that... but that's gonna keep me cheerful for the rest of the day! Thanks!

[gracestamper]

.........and we've all fell short, to err is human....... :prin:

and it's a smilie for crying out loud! what you want to outlaw those too? lets just suck the fun out of everything........
fun-sucker! :2thumbs:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Are you kidding? I thought it was hilarious! I wish I could reach that level of irony in my writing.

[gracestamper]

I just want you to understand this thread, we can't introduce a New World Order and RFIDs and one world leader without some sort of religion. Thats what it's all about. Read the link below, you'll understand it better.

http://nwowatcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=3976.0

so this way everyone gets religion. Even athiests and new agers who worship men, Catholics who worship saints. Revelations clearly states, *those who refused to stop worshipping idols who can't see, hear or walk* So it makes all religions right, and our bodies are of the world. Our souls, our spirits are of something bigger abd better.
These chips will change so much and for the better. But you see why no one wants to do what we're doing,now.

Mark of the beast, antichrist, concentration camps...I don't bring the good news.

I've signed up to become a distrubutor for these implants, we've reached a time where they are needed. We talk about terrorism, but we bring in immigrants and treat them better than we do our own citizens while our veterans lay in nursing homes and suffer the indignity of not being helped to the bathroom in time.

It's time for these changes. :prin:

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

This means ALL religions are correct, even the new age religions that say man is God.
Are you saying that Scientology is correct?


I get my answers in dreams.
You DO realize that your dreams are expressions of your subconscious mind, right? If you are a devout religious person, then your dreams will reflect that. My wife once had a dream that her mother was dancing Rockettes-style with a deer while both of them were singing "Paperback Writer" by the Beatles. I wouldn't put much faith in your dreams if I were you...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I've signed up to become a distrubutor for these implants, we've reached a time where they are needed. We talk about terrorism, but we bring in immigrants and treat them better than we do our own citizens while our veterans lay in nursing homes and suffer the indignity of not being helped to the bathroom in time.

We treat immigrants better than we do our citizens?! Like hell! And our veterans are occasionally in horrible nursing homes, yeah, but that 1) has nothing to do with the topic, and 2) is cheap emotional blackmail.

Have you ever heard the old quote, "Those who would give up freedom for safety deserve neither"? (God, I quote a lot on these forums.) I know everyone is riled up about terrorism, yes it's a horrible horrible thing, yes let's work to stop it. But you're talking about a system that would be able to constantly monitor us at all times, and can record everything we buy, every visit to the doctor we make, every place we go if it wants to. Not to mention it would probably alienate the hell out of a LOT of people, both on our soil and off it.

I mean, does it seem a little crazy to you that some of the first posts on this thread were talking about how the government couldn't be trusted with its power... and now you're talking about handing the government every bit of personal data on everyone, and it's all at the click of a button?

And... I was going to keep this post nice and religion-neutral, but my roll as self-described wannabe novice quazi-parapsychologist won't allow it. You're dealing with a MAJOR prophesy here, you've encountered some of the signs of that prophesy (the witnesses, the Antichrist), and now you're acting in a way that fulfills that prophesy? Yeah, I know your dream said it was okay, but don't you realize how dangerous it is to count on such things? They can be read wrong, or warped in some way. If you're determined to follow this... be careful. That's all I can say.

[gracestamper]

Lets just say I'd prefer everyone to know when I go out to buy tampons as opposed to hearing on the nightly news that some one was killed over 10 bucks they had in their pocket, or hear about how a daddy just molested his daughter. You have to weigh the odds and the odds just keep adding up to support these chips.
And since everything including Satan, is controlled by God, if God sends us an Antichrist and we haven't saw a rapture, it probably means God is okay with these chips as well. I don't see how it's any different than having a Visa or Mastercard. :prin:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Lets just say I'd prefer everyone to know when I go out to buy tampons as opposed to hearing on the nightly news that some one was killed over 10 bucks they had in their pocket, or hear about how a daddy just molested his daughter.

What?! How the hell are you gonna prevent those things with a microchip? Okay, the 10 bucks would maybe work, if all money was on your microprocessor or whatever. But really, hit me with the second one. How in the world is a chip in your hand going to stop molestations? Stop using emotional blackmail to make your point. I'll agree that the crime rate would go down, but I don't think it would stop ALL crime by any stretch of the imagination.

And since we're talking about the chip replacing money, let's talk economy. First, small potatoes - if the use of instant bank transactions works so well, why don't we just use debit cards entirely? I believe research shows that people who use credit/debit cards are more likely to overspend than people who write checks or use cash. The use of these chips might cause some people to have difficulties handling their finances. Minor issue, yes, but how many other minor issues are involved with this that we haven't thought of?

More imporantly, how are we planning to pay for this? Tax dollars? How complicated is this operation, how expensive are these microchips, who is in charge of this? And at what age do people get the chip? You can't slice a newborn's hand open and shove the bastard in there, can you? The mothers would squak.


And since everything including Satan, is controlled by God, if God sends us an Antichrist and we haven't saw a rapture, it probably means God is okay with these chips as well.

What, no foreplay?

Seriously, do you just think God's gonna drop the Antichrist onto the earth, and five seconds later Gth'Noys the Demon of Destruction is knocking New York into rubble? Just because things are dandy now doesn't mean they always will be.


I don't see how it's any different than having a Visa or Mastercard.

Then why introduce the things at all? We have debit cards, we have photo ID, and we could probably get the Red Cross to make some pretty laminated medical cards if we needed them to. Why go with something you have to INJECT INTO YOUR SKIN?

[Sammy56]

Wow, I leave for one day and this thread gets totally out of control....


I took your rapture when I took extreme measures to protect the two witnesses of the tribulation. When I idd this, I crossed over. The beast who was and now is not.
Wait, what? You single handedly stopped the Antichrist? How did you do this?


So in order to change thier fate, and protect them from the Antichrist, I had to change the Antichrists fate as well.
By definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fate) you cannot change someones fate. Nobody can.


I know because I've met all three of these men, the Antichrist, and the two witnesses. I know because I am the false prophet.
Ok, I am confused. You know who the Antichrist is? Can you please tell us who? You also say you are the false prophet, so doesn't that mean that everything you are telling us is a lie?


this thread is exactly on track, brainiac!
No, this thread is supposed to be about separation of church and state, not about how you apparently stopped the Antichrist single handily.


everything is controlled by God, even Satan, even Hell and that devilish false prophet.
Wait, I thought you were the false prophet?


I just want you to understand this thread, we can't introduce a New World Order and RFIDs and one world leader without some sort of religion.
I thought most Christians thought the New World Order and the Mark of the Beast was bad? Did I miss something?


Mark of the beast, antichrist, concentration camps...I don't bring the good news
But I thought you said you stopped the Antichrist?


Lets just say I'd prefer everyone to know when I go out to buy tampons as opposed to hearing on the nightly news that some one was killed over 10 bucks they had in their pocket, or hear about how a daddy just molested his daughter
These chips might be able to stop people from stealing money, I agree, but they will spawn new types of crime. I can just see it now, people getting caught in a dark alley were some guy cuts the chip right out of him, effectively stealing all his money and his identity. I think I would rather just lose ten bucks. And how is this going to stop parents from molesting their children?


You have to weigh the odds and the odds just keep adding up to support these chips.
No, they do not. I cannot say it much plainer then that.


I don't see how it's any different than having a Visa or Mastercard.
I do. For one, you do not have to inject them into your skin. This is a big plus for people like me who are terrified of shots. Second, credit cards do not have GPS locators in them. I think that these chips are much different then just carrying aroung a card.

Gracestamper, you are begining to sound as bad as Jake.

[gracestamper]

OH please! I keep hearing about how everyone wants to keep thier privacy...Do you have any idea how paranoid people will be when we sart marking them?! no one will do anything remotely wrong because they wont know how much these babies monitor. :bondage:

[Sammy56]

OH please! I keep hearing about how everyone wants to keep thier privacy...Do you have any idea how paranoid people will be when we sart marking them?! no one will do anything remotely wrong because they wont know how much these babies monitor.
I honestly cannot believe you. You actually want people to live in paranoia just so you can reduce the crime rate a couple of percents? Everyone has a right to privacy. Making them wear implants that lets the government know exactly where they all at all times is wrong. There is no other way to describe it. These things will not stop crime, they will just make most people pissed at the ones who advocate them. Most people, myself included, will refuse to get these implants. I'm curious, have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? If not you should because that is the type of society you are proposing. Oh, and gracestamper, thank you so much for answering all my questions. :mhm:

[gracestamper]

this thread is NOT out of control, it's exactly where it needs to be.

Now your questions:

Wait, what? You single handedly stopped the Antichrist? How did you do this?

you'll have the answer to this when you read the rest. Sit tight.

By definition you cannot change someones fate. Nobody can.

Oh, yes I can. Read revelations...the beast who was given the power to blasphemy God, His word, and His dwelling place. That would be me. But I had to have help from God himself. I'm the beast who crosses over, the one who gets religion. The beast who was and now is not. When this beast cries at the altar for two of Gods chosen people, and the Antichrist himself, things can change with Gods help.

Ok, I am confused. You know who the Antichrist is? Can you please tell us who? You also say you are the false prophet, so doesn't that mean that everything you are telling us is a lie?

Antichrist is described as some one who opposes Christ. Well, theres many of those aren't there? I oppose the government and thier little plot to use forced labor on any one who refuses these IDs. See the links below. And thats the beauty of it all, you don't know if I'm lying or not, so you'll just have to find some things out on your own.

http://www.10meters.com/verichip_fda.html

http://www.10meters.com/verichip_fda.html

You see, when all this good news comes out, and it's already hit the newspaper here, how can anyone keep anyone incarcerated for doing a whole lot less than what Uncle Sam is planning to do?
Say I was to suck the US economy dry, and I'm ready to forgive everyone from Saddam Hussien to Charles Manson, how logical would that be? How safe would it be to have these guys back on the streets?
In short, the justice system is now screwed. Some one has to balance things back out. You'll call him the Antichrist, reguardless of who he is or what he believes in.


I thought most Christians thought the New World Order and the Mark of the Beast was bad? Did I miss something?

You've missed plenty. Church and state was origionally written simply to say that the government can't decide what religion we have on a personal level. Ok, how can we keep the bible in the courtroom if we have to take it out of schools?
Do you really think a child molester would have a problem lying on the bible?
They've took it to extreme levels here, 10 commandments being removed from everything, abortion issues, even casinos are getting a raw deal.

But since this where I get to be right, and EVERYTHING is controlled by God, even the Antichrist, even hell (and I can tell you about that too, and it's not what you think it is, but it's worse than lakes of burning sulfur) Then the Antichrist is also one of Gods creations (most beautiful too BTW)
So ALL religions are correct, even Satanism, because thats also Gods.

So I oppose the government, and with very good reason, Your Antichrist oppses my church because it says he will. Separation of church and state again. Who should have total authority over the earth? The church (me) that wants to release millions of criminals) or the antichrist AKA the rider on the while horse who judges and makes war. Most people think this will be Jesus, he isn't, and they think he's bringing a thousand years of peace, it's not that either.

The future is lookng very dark... :prin:

[.Q.]

UN won't touch us because we control thier money too, and we'll have a world dictator.

We do not control much of anything.
U.S. sovereignty is gone.

The strength of our economy is a "house of cards" and ultimately
doomed for a simple reason among others... and that is the
undeniable reality that you cannot build and sustain an economy
based on credit.

[gracestamper]

we control PLENTY, thats why we can do this. The government loves to sit back and whine that we're sinking ourselves into debt faster than we can dig our way out, how much do they spend on elections every year? and how much of taxpayers money has went to fund these little programs?

http://www.10meters.com/verichip_fda.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html

you see we can't really have an opinion if we don't know whats going on, right? There goes our voting privledges. :crtmn:

[.Q.]

we control PLENTY, thats why we can do this. The government loves to sit back and whine that we're sinking ourselves into debt faster than we can dig our way out, how much do they spend on elections every year? and how much of taxpayers money has went to fund these little programs?

http://www.10meters.com/verichip_fda.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html

you see we can't really have an opinion if we don't know whats going on, right? There goes our votin privledges. :crtmn:

Do you not see the charade?
Who do you think holds the notes on our national debt?
One day they will cash in their chips.
It must come to pass. It is eventual.

[DontBeAfraid]

please tell me about hell.

[gracestamper]

If you think you really want to know...
It's a separation from God, being removed from Gods sights.
You see according Evangelist John Haggees book, Day of Deception, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is actually a government that controls other governments.
Okay, when you find out what that beast is, you lose God. It's your life gone wrong. It's when God gives you a little sample of just how bad things can get. It's when in one week two of your kids almost die, and it still wasn't bad enough so I lost my grandad too. And when you sit at his funeral and can't even shed a tear because when you see what the future holds, death doesn't look so bad. It's when you're caught up in the middle of what's right and what's wrong, and theres no balance or logic in anything. It when you love Gods people, ALL of them no matter how vile they are, it's when you look the Antichrist in the eye and love him enough to carry him over the thresh holds of hell and it's when he has taken hold of one hand, and God has taken the other and you love all of it, no matter how bad it starts to look. It's knowing your own fate. Think about it, how many Christians are sucking gas in the Rex 84 program if I don't finish this? And everyone of them who know what all this is, knows thier fate.
This way, everyone gets religion one way or another. :prin:

[gracestamper]

Do you not see the charade?
Who do you think holds the notes on our national debt?
One day they will cash in their chips.
It must come to pass. It is eventual.


Yes, but they NEED us, bottom line, why do you think the UN is handing over to Bill Clinton so easy. If we decide to play war games with this, I mean COME ON! The UN is a peacekeeping organization, they won't do shit. And face it, every leader on the planet is pushing for everything I've talked about but no one wants to do it. You already know why, because of a damned title and reputation, the ugliest cross in the book of Revelations, so no one fights any of it. And think about this one, if youre the leader of Russia for example, we give you an antichrist out of the US, you won't have any idea just how much this boy can do, so you sure as hell won't get in his way.
:headbang:

[gracestamper]

Yes, but they NEED us, bottom line, why do you think the UN is handing over to Bill Clinton so easy. If we decide to play war games with this, I mean COME ON! The UN is a peacekeeping organization, they won't do shit. And face it, every leader on the planet is pushing for everything I've talked about but no one wants to do it. You already know why, because of a damned title and reputation, the ugliest cross in the book of Revelations, so no one fights any of it. And think about this one, if youre the leader of Russia for example, we give you an antichrist out of the US, you won't have any idea just how much this boy can do, so you sure as hell won't get in his way.
:headbang:


Your little opinion just put us over here now:
You won't know if the Antichrist really is or if its just what we want you to think.... :amaz:

[.Q.]

And think about this one, if youre the leader of Russia for example, we give you an antichrist out of the US, you won't have any idea just how much this boy can do, so you sure as hell won't get in his way.
:headbang:


Don't be so sure.
I may surprise you.

[gracestamper]

ok fine and when you do and you get to do the dirty work, you get to be the antichrist.
These chips will happen do you want the job of promoting them?
Didn't think so :bondage:

[.Q.]

ok fine and when you do and you get to do the dirty work, you get to be the antichrist.
These chips will happen do you want the job of promoting them?
Didn't think so :bondage:

I will not be here. Will you?

Your furniture seems to be upstairs...
but re-arranged in the wrong rooms.

[gracestamper]

where ya planning on going? don't run and hide I thought you said you could face him. :prin: and we are all going to be here for the fireworks display. :headbang:

[.Q.]

where ya planning on going? don't run and hide I thought you said you could face hi. :prin:

If versed in prophecy... then the answer you know.

[DontBeAfraid]

gracestomper your answer was not direct enough for me. Please try again, only this time pretend I dont already know what you are trying to say.

[gracestamper]

what do you still think you're gonna be raptured? I took that when I saved the Antichrist, sorry, but he needed salvation more than the rest of us. :prin:

[.Q.]

gracestomper your answer was not direct enough for me. Please try again, only this time pretend I dont already know what you are trying to say.

Have to second that.
No disrespect G.
Civility at it's finest, yes?

[gracestamper]

so what about your rapture Hotshot? :Blbl:

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

You see according Evangelist John Haggees book, Day of Deception, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is actually a government that controls other governments.
Aaaahhh, I've always LOVED the "Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head" bit. So, let me get this straight. So, despite the fact that THE BIBLE, which is supposedly THE WORD OF GOD, says that a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head will appear to herald the destruction of the world or some such silliness, YOU choose to believe JOHN HAGGEES' lame symbolic interpretation instead of THE WORD OF GOD? Why am I not surprised? At this point, the ENTIRE BIBLE is apparently symbolic. Why is it that even Christians themselves don't believe what the Bible says? Why bother with the Bible at all?

[gracestamper]

Aaaahhh, I've always LOVED the "Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head" bit. So, let me get this straight. So, despite the fact that THE BIBLE, which is supposedly THE WORD OF GOD, says that a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head will appear to herald the destruction of the world or some such silliness, YOU choose to believe JOHN HAGGEES' lame symbolic interpretation instead of THE WORD OF GOD? Why am I not surprised? At this point, the ENTIRE BIBLE is apparently symbolic. Why is it that even Christians themselves don't believe what the Bible says? Why bother with the Bible at all?


I didn't say it was right or wrong, it screws your head up and you lose God, Hagee was wrong anyway, I'm the big dawg. :bondage:

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I took that when I saved the Antichrist
Oh my... it's another Jake99... Run...

[gracestamper]

Jake claims to be the light, and the messiah, I claim that I'm going to shove a microchip so far up everyones ass they won't know what hit them. :gtfo:

[.Q.]

so what about your rapture Hotshot? :Blbl:

I by no means equate any of my attributes to that
of a "Hotshot."

If you choose to mix your words with condescension,
as you wish... for I truly have no ego to bruise.

Perhaps modesty and civility would suit you better as a main course...
with a slice of "humble pie" for desert.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Jake claims to be the light, and the messiah, I claim that I'm going to shove a microchip so far up everyones ass they won't know what hit them.
According to you fundies, shoving ANYTHING up one's ass is unnatural and, as such, is a SIN. Sorry, gracie, but you're going to Hell...

[gracestamper]

You're probably right, but I haven't found anyone who could do the job, not yet anyway. I'm who I am because its who I am.
So where's your rapture?

[DontBeAfraid]

gracethumper PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE talk to us like we dont have a clue what you are trying to say because we dont. I dont know what you did and I dont understand what you are trying to say you did. Please give us a "blow by blow" account of what you are trying to describe because we dont know. I didnt understand your description of hell and I dont have any idea why you asked me about a rapture..... Im not christian and Im not religious. Now if you would....

Please describe hell.

Please tell us how you saved the world.

What job?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Jeez. I'm almost disappointed I had to go to work today. I've got a lot of catching up to do.


OH please! I keep hearing about how everyone wants to keep thier privacy...Do you have any idea how paranoid people will be when we sart marking them?! no one will do anything remotely wrong because they wont know how much these babies monitor.

Do you really think anyone will stick something in their arm if they don't know what it does? Do you really think you can put a device in the flesh of the ENTIRE POPULATION and not have any information released about it? People are adept at figuring out how to make trouble when it seems impossible.


Oh, yes I can. Read revelations...the beast who was given the power to blasphemy God, His word, and His dwelling place. That would be me. But I had to have help from God himself. I'm the beast who crosses over, the one who gets religion.

Oh, for Christ's sake! Do you believe in Revelations or don't you? If you don't, all of this is just babbling! If you do, the prophecies have barely begun! Do you think God could predict the results of millenia of men's actions, but he couldn't guess one major player in the game would say, "Whoops, changed my mind! I'm good now!" You can't have this both ways.


Antichrist is described as some one who opposes Christ. Well, theres many of those aren't there?

And I could be described as a young adult male, but every young adult male isn't me. If you're going to tell us who the Antichrist is, tell us. If you aren't, have the guts to say you won't answer the question. Stop dancing around the question.


You've missed plenty. Church and state was origionally written simply to say that the government can't decide what religion we have on a personal level.

Oh, bullshit. Freedom of religion was originally written to say that the government can't decide what religion we have on a personal level. Separation of church and state was written because the original founders of the US believed the church would corrupt the state from its purpose.


They've took it to extreme levels here, 10 commandments being removed from everything, abortion issues, even casinos are getting a raw deal.

Keep in mind that when the 10 Commandments were placed in the courtyard, it implied that the only people who believed in the bible could support American Justice. Frankly, I think that's a horrible lack of respect for the non-Christians who work hard to do their part in the justice system. I don't really care how "extreme" it seems to you.


The church (me) that wants to release millions of criminals) or the antichrist AKA the rider on the while horse who judges and makes war.

Hmm... that's a tough one. Either someone who wants to create war... and War is Bad... or someone who wants to throw me and my loved ones to the mercy of the murderers, rapists and theives you'd be letting out. Can I buy a vowel?


Most people think this will be Jesus, he isn't, and they think he's bringing a thousand years of peace, it's not that either.

Are "most people" stupid? The world falls into two categories in this instance - the non-Christians (who won't exactly be expecting Jesus, y'know,) and the Christians (who... uh, read the bible? Shouldn't they already know this shit?)


We do not control much of anything.
U.S. sovereignty is gone.

I must disagree. We completely fucked the UN a few years back, and once we were in the thick of it, we basically said, "So, guys, wanna help clean up our mess?" And they sent people! I'm sorry, but if you can completely screw the rest of the world over, and the next day they're happily sucking up to you like old times, there's still something there. The UN is a mock-up now - we've shown we do whatever the hell we want, no matter what anyone says, and our fellow countries are still hanging around. That's sovereignty.


what do you still think you're gonna be raptured? I took that when I saved the Antichrist, sorry, but he needed salvation more than the rest of us.

Y'know, most people wouldn't say, "Yeah, I totally fucked God's plans over, hee hee hee," with such a cavalier attitude. God has this amazing tendency to suddenly bite you in the ass just when you think you've got control of everything.


Aaaahhh, I've always LOVED the "Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head" bit. So, let me get this straight. So, despite the fact that THE BIBLE, which is supposedly THE WORD OF GOD, says that a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns on each head will appear to herald the destruction of the world or some such silliness, YOU choose to believe JOHN HAGGEES' lame symbolic interpretation instead of THE WORD OF GOD?

It's prophecy. If it's not symbolic, it's likely distorted. After all, Christians and non-Christians are supposed to hate one another when the end comes, but if people are pulling all the crazy miraculous shit in the book out of nowhere, don't you think people will start to wonder whose story makes sense? Can anyone here HONESTLY say that, knowing the prophesy of Revelations, if a beast with seven heads and ten horns suddenly showed up, they wouldn't convert as fast as they could think?

Now, I'm not saying John Haggees is correct, (Who the hell is...) but comparing Revelations to the rest of the bible is foolish. Most of the bible is "history". It's a direct chronicling of events. (In theory.) Revelations, again, is prophecy.

... Is that it? Hey, that's it. I hope.

[gracestamper]

According to you fundies, shoving ANYTHING up one's ass is unnatural and, as such, is a SIN. Sorry, gracie, but you're going to Hell...


going to Hell?

Been there, done that.

[gracestamper]

Jeez. I'm almost disappointed I had to go to work today. I've got a lot of catching up to do.



Do you really think anyone will stick something in their arm if they don't know what it does? Do you really think you can put a device in the flesh of the ENTIRE POPULATION and not have any information released about it? People are adept at figuring out how to make trouble when it seems impossible.



Oh, for Christ's sake! Do you believe in Revelations or don't you? If you don't, all of this is just babbling! If you do, the prophecies have barely begun! Do you think God could predict the results of millenia of men's actions, but he couldn't guess one major player in the game would say, "Whoops, changed my mind! I'm good now!" You can't have this both ways.



And I could be described as a young adult male, but every young adult male isn't me. If you're going to tell us who the Antichrist is, tell us. If you aren't, have the guts to say you won't answer the question. Stop dancing around the question.



Oh, bullshit. Freedom of religion was originally written to say that the government can't decide what religion we have on a personal level. Separation of church and state was written because the original founders of the US believed the church would corrupt the state from its purpose.



Keep in mind that when the 10 Commandments were placed in the courtyard, it implied that the only people who believed in the bible could support American Justice. Frankly, I think that's a horrible lack of respect for the non-Christians who work hard to do their part in the justice system. I don't really care how "extreme" it seems to you.



Hmm... that's a tough one. Either someone who wants to create war... and War is Bad... or someone who wants to throw me and my loved ones to the mercy of the murderers, rapists and theives you'd be letting out. Can I buy a vowel?



Are "most people" stupid? The world falls into two categories in this instance - the non-Christians (who won't exactly be expecting Jesus, y'know,) and the Christians (who... uh, read the bible? Shouldn't they already know this shit?)



I must disagree. We completely fucked the UN a few years back, and once we were in the thick of it, we basically said, "So, guys, wanna help clean up our mess?" And they sent people! I'm sorry, but if you can completely screw the rest of the world over, and the next day they're happily sucking up to you like old times, there's still something there. The UN is a mock-up now - we've shown we do whatever the hell we want, no matter what anyone says, and our fellow countries are still hanging around. That's sovereignty.



Y'know, most people wouldn't say, "Yeah, I totally fucked God's plans over, hee hee hee," with such a cavalier attitude. God has this amazing tendency to suddenly bite you in the ass just when you think you've got control of everything.



It's prophecy. If it's not symbolic, it's likely distorted. After all, Christians and non-Christians are supposed to hate one another when the end comes, but if people are pulling all the crazy miraculous shit in the book out of nowhere, don't you think people will start to wonder whose story makes sense? Can anyone here HONESTLY say that, knowing the prophesy of Revelations, if a beast with seven heads and ten horns suddenly showed up, they wouldn't convert as fast as they could think?

Now, I'm not saying John Haggees is correct, (Who the hell is...) but comparing Revelations to the rest of the bible is foolish. Most of the bible is "history". It's a direct chronicling of events. (In theory.) Revelations, again, is prophecy.

... Is that it? Hey, that's it. I hope.


No, thats not IT.

John Haggee is a minister and writer from San Antonio, TX he leads a congregation of about 2000 people three times a week, and if you'll turn on your tv on Sundays you're likely to find him there as he has his own show.
And he writes prophecy books. So what, when you find out how bad your governments lying, you have to start believing some one.

This thing WILL happen, what you're going to see will scare the living hell out of you and then you'll understand what it's all about.

It didn't matter if the beast was a government or a human, you talk NWO, microchips, and rex 84 no ones happy until they have an antichrist, and he doesn't come without a prophet paving the way.
I'm exactly what I'm supposed to be. :bondage:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

You can say "this will happen, this will happen, this will happen" over and over, and I won't be any closer to convinced. If you'd respond to my arguments, tell me what I'm apparently missing, maybe we can talk

[Sammy56]

Oh my... it's another Jake99... Run...
*Crosses fingers and hopes B.Nye is wrong...*


Jake claims to be the light, and the messiah, I claim that I'm going to shove a microchip so far up everyones ass they won't know what hit them.
Sorry, I would rather have Jake...


I'm who I am because its who I am.
You know, I am not really sure what to say about this statement. Isn't everybody who they are? If not something has gone way wrong in the world...


Y'know, most people wouldn't say, "Yeah, I totally fucked God's plans over, hee hee hee," with such a cavalier attitude. God has this amazing tendency to suddenly bite you in the ass just when you think you've got control of everything.
Philosopher make a really good point here grace. You might wish to pay attention to it.


It didn't matter if the beast was a government or a human
Yes it does, and since you know who it is, can you please tell us?


I'm exactly what I'm supposed to be.
Once again, I am not quite sure what to say. Aren't we all what we are supposed to be? *ponders the idea that I am actually a secret agent for the CIA *

[gracestamper]

ok, I'm not sure what you think your missing or what I'm not answering so I'll make it short and sweet to the best of my ability.

Here's what we're doing, we darin the economy, we disarm Lybia, North Korea no telling what else is going on under the tables...We introduce the RFID, and a cashless society, well you know what that brings to mind already. When the economy falls we're ready for it. Again, the UN won't do anything because they all want NWO, more since Sept.11 than ever. Everyones pushing for these implants, no one wants to do that either, so they will be happy to let a nobody do it. Some one from the wrong side of the tracks. Someone who's not a politician, someone who doesn't have a reputation to lose, some one who doesn't care what people think.
Under martial law the federal government can sieze whatever they want, farms homes, banks, communications, you name it. So, anyone who gets in the way gets held under the patriot act which means they can be held without bail, or attorney indefinitely...
Enter the Rex 84 program, its no secret the prisons are over populated, so what the hell are we going to do with people when they start losing it?

Communism means the government owns everything. We're converting in a big damned hurry and most people don't even know.
When the banks and businesses shut down, and we all have to re-register and go cashless or we can't survive, those people will need a place to stay or they'll just contribute to crime. Rex 84 will control those people too.

But we cannot have NWO and RFIDs and concetration camps without a mastermind working behind the scenes. An Antichrist as everyone likes to call it. So actually, outside not having a rapture, everything is going exactly as described in Revelations. But if the antichrist doesn't oppose Christ, it all changes doesn't it? :prin:

[Sammy56]

Everyones pushing for these implants, no one wants to do that either
These are contradictory statements.


Under martial law the federal government can sieze whatever they want
I do not think you know the definition of martial law very well. One, it is not the government in control, but the military. Two, it deals mostly with crimes and how they are punished, not seizing lands and other property. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law) is some more info.


Communism means the government owns everything.
Wait, I think I missed something. When did communism come in?


But we cannot have NWO and RFIDs and concetration camps without a mastermind working behind the scenes. An Antichrist as everyone likes to call it. So actually, outside not having a rapture, everything is going exactly as described in Revelations.
Ok, I think I am beginning to understand, but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. You basically want to give us a NWO, put microchips into everybody, and have an unfair government that puts anyone who disagrees with them in jail. You want a rapture with no Antichrist. I thought you were Christian? Doesn't this mean you fear the rapture but look forward to what comes after? Because according to your writings you wish to start something like a rapture but since you "singlehandedly" removed the Antichrist, instead of there being a happy ending, the world will become this awful place of dictatorship with no Antichrist to battle God and bring an end to it all. Wow. That really sucks. I cannot say I support your system. I would really rather go with Jake. At least he wants to make things better, not worse.

[.Q.]

But if the antichrist doesn't oppose Christ, it all changes doesn't it? :prin:

Has been predicted.
Must take place.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

These are contradictory statements.

Actually, no. This much I understand. I think gracestamper is saying, "Everybody wants implants, but nobody wants to be the one to bring them in." It's kind of like, "Who bells the cat?"


But if the antichrist doesn't oppose Christ, it all changes doesn't it?

I have a long and rambling answer to this. Hold on.

When I was a Christian, we had a missionary from China give a lecture at my youth group. I was stunned when he told us that one millon Chinese died every year having never heard the word of God. Didn't that mean they were all going to hell? I mentioned this, and he pointed out a bible verse (I forget which one, but Paul wrote it.) which basically said, "All people are born with the knowledge of Christ".

Now, we all know people aren't spontaneously born again. So I figured, it's not about the churches, or the rules, or even knowing what was going on in Jerusalem two thousand years ago. It's about something much, much deeper than that. Six years later, I've left most of the bible behind, but I still believe this.

Now.

What you are suggesting is taking the rules, and the church, and making them all-powerful. Don't believe in what the church says? Throw 'em into a concentration camp. Coveting his neighbors wife? Twenty years of jail time.

I look at the New Testament, and I see Jesus being kind, loving and humble toward his fellow man. I look at YOU, and I see you coldly asking for power over the world, to strike down those who don't agree with you.

That, my friend, is the most un-Christlike think I've ever heard. So before you say you don't oppose Christ, you'd better be damn sure you don't.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

But if the antichrist doesn't oppose Christ, it all changes doesn't it?
Why do SO MANY Christians just not believe in what the Bible says and interpret it in the most ridiculous ways? DO you or DON'T you believe in the Bible? The very definition of Antichrist is as follows:

[1] An enemy of Christ.
[2] Antichrist The epithet of the great antagonist who was expected by the early Church to set himself up against Christ in the last days before the Second Coming.
[3] A false Christ.
[4] The adversary of Christ (or Christianity) mentioned in the New Testament; the Antichrist will rule the world until overthrown by the Second Coming of Christ.

So how is it possible for the ANTIchrist NOT to oppose Christ? If, as you suggest, the Antichrist DOESN'T oppose Christ then, by definition, he is NOT the Antichrist. Clearly, your musings indicate that you don't believe what the Bible says which I find very strange...

[nrj]

Heres a funny thought: If God is that almighty that he can break the laws of logic and create materia out of vacum, why not simply point at the antichrist and Texas two-fuck his as? (man B.Nye! That phrase is really funny!)

[Philosopher Foelhe]

So how is it possible for the ANTIchrist NOT to oppose Christ? If, as you suggest, the Antichrist DOESN'T oppose Christ then, by definition, he is NOT the Antichrist. Clearly, your musings indicate that you don't believe what the Bible says which I find very strange...

That's exactly what she's saying. Well, not the bible bit, but Gracestamper is saying that if we let her do all the stuff the Antichrist should, there'll be no Antichrist and therefore no Apocalypse. I think. But that still brings into account whether she believes Revelations.


Heres a funny thought: If God is that almighty that he can break the laws of logic and create materia out of vacum, why not simply point at the antichrist and Texas two-fuck his as?

Because, from the Christian point of veiw, God wants the Apocalypse to happen. It's the same reason he doesn't just destroy Satan and get it over with - he wants his followers to be tested. Which is yet ANOTHER reason Grace shouldn't do this.

[nrj]

Talk about loving his children when he sends a burning mountain in our as and let us listen to the awful sound of angels blowing in ancient horns! Well, I really, really, really don't think that is ever going to happen less prevented by someone who mimics the antichrist.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Jesus Christ! Not the "if God loved us he'd stop all the death" question again! Idiot Jake! If he hadn't hijacked the "Reveal Thyself!" thread (with some minimal from me, admittedly) we might have this stupid issue resolved alread.


Well, I really, really, really don't think that is ever going to happen less prevented by someone who mimics the antichrist.

... Congratulations? I don't know, what's your point? I'm pretty sure most people on this forum are aware you're an atheist. Belief in the Apocalypse is not necessary to speak on this thread, obviously, but given the discussion and where it's led, it helps if you can argue from a theistic viewpoint. Otherwise the whole thing degenerates into a "Does not!" "Does too!" shouting match.

[nrj]

Well, you're propably right. This will become a does not does to thread if we atheist and agnostics keeps our mouths shut about what we believe in. Any way, I have not stated that death=evil. But, killing us as painfully as he can, and only save "the good ones"? Now that's evil allright. But, I just wanted to say my opinion: I don't believe the New Testaments Apoclypse thing, and just had the urge of saying it when a thread popped up and said it is true. I have the right to say my opinions, right? Any way Philosopher, d not think of this as saying I don't like you. I just didn't like that particular post :)

[nrj]

Well, you're propably right. This will become a does not does to thread if we atheist and agnostics keeps our mouths shut about what we believe in. Any way, I have not stated that death=evil. But, killing us as painfully as he can, and only save "the good ones"? Now that's evil allright. But, I just wanted to say my opinion: I don't believe the New Testaments Apoclypse thing, and just had the urge of saying it when a thread popped up and said it is true. I have the right to say my opinions, right? Any way Philosopher, do not think of this as saying I don't like you. I just didn't like that particular post :)

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Because, from the Christian point of veiw, God wants the Apocalypse to happen. It's the same reason he doesn't just destroy Satan and get it over with - he wants his followers to be tested.
This brings up an interesting dilemma concerning something that Dark Ace is a big proponent of, which is FREE WILL. It is often argued that God supposedly "allows" evil to exist in the world because if God were to prevent evil, then apparently this would take away our free will (just how exactly taking away evil affects EVERY single other aspect of free will in one's life is beyond me). HOWEVER, if God wants the Apocalypse to happen, then it WILL happen which means no free will for us. Additionally, we are given the "choice" to believe in God and live life in paradise or not to believe in God and live in eternal agony in Hell. Gee, which one should I choose? Free will indeed...

[DarkAce]

(just how exactly taking away evil affects EVERY single other aspect of free will in one's life is beyond me).


I could of sworn I tried explaining the basics of how in some other thread. Actually using the search function (and having to go through endless amounts of innane posts) I grabbed it up for ya: http://forums.armageddononline.org/showpost.php?p=75624&postcount=388

Now I tried explaining it in lamens terms on your theory of if 'God' were to take away a person's ability to kill. Now onto the aspects of evil, a) Evil is a very suggestive term and depends greatly on one's own perspective. b) Evil isn't some gene we can just eradicate, it's a nature of the mind. The same principles that I used in debunking your previous query of God taking away a person's ability to kill applies to this as well.

If they haven't been informative enough for you to grasp them in your realm of understanding, I'm sorry I've failed you.


HOWEVER, if God wants the Apocalypse to happen, then it WILL happen which means no free will for us.


That would depend on if 'God' indeed would want that, or if that prophetic mambo jumbo was just someone's fan-fict added later on.


Additionally, we are given the "choice" to believe in God and live life in paradise or not to believe in God and live in eternal agony in Hell.


That's some religious sects opinions, but in no way a definitive fact.

For people claiming to be so against 'God' you surely use only one religious view to base your perspective on, when they're tons of other perspectives of 'God' and the nature of it.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Well, you're propably right. This will become a does not does to thread if we atheist and agnostics keeps our mouths shut about what we believe in. Any way, I have not stated that death=evil. But, killing us as painfully as he can, and only save "the good ones"? Now that's evil allright. But, I just wanted to say my opinion: I don't believe the New Testaments Apoclypse thing, and just had the urge of saying it when a thread popped up and said it is true. I have the right to say my opinions, right? Any way Philosopher, d not think of this as saying I don't like you. I just didn't like that particular post :)

Heh. I think I overreacted to your post, and I'm sorry. You do have a right to say your opinions, of course, and I'm always interested in them. But...

*sigh*

I guess what bothered me is that I couldn't see your reply having any effect on the debate taking place - namely, what Gracestamper's place in the Apocalypse is. You say, "I don't believe in the Apocalypse," a Christian says, "You're WRONG!" and suddenly we have a flame war on our hands. I saw the possibility of that happening, and I tried to head you off at the pass.

Now, I don't believe in the Apocalypse. I've been trying to word my posts so that they were neutral. But I've mostly been arguing from a Christian standpoint. Why? Because my goal in a debate is to make people think about their viewpoints, and maybe change them (maybe I'm wasting my time, but there you go). I didn't think your reply was going to change anyone's opinions on anything, because it drew the battlegrounds instantly.

But that's my problem. Your motives for posting are your own, and I shouldn't push my ideals onto you. Please accept my humblest apologies.


This brings up an interesting dilemma concerning something that Dark Ace is a big proponent of, which is FREE WILL. It is often argued that God supposedly "allows" evil to exist in the world because if God were to prevent evil, then apparently this would take away our free will (just how exactly taking away evil affects EVERY single other aspect of free will in one's life is beyond me).

But doesn't evil define good? How can you prove yourself as a "good" person if you can't slip up? A test you can't fail is worthless. And if we're not here to be tested in some way, what are we here for?

Not to mention that evil is relative. So unless you want the world transformed into Eden or something, you can't really ask that it be removed. And I think asking for paradise is a bit much.


HOWEVER, if God wants the Apocalypse to happen, then it WILL happen which means no free will for us.

That's sort of iffy. After all, if you talk to people who claim to see the future, some will say that it's not "fate", but a look at the current variables, and figuring out how they'll react at a certain point, and that you'll still have the option to choose, but AS THINGS ARE GOING, this is what will almost certainly happen. Just because God approves of the result doesn't mean he's actively pushing for it to happen.

I told Gracestamper that if she screwed with God, she'd get it in the end. What I meant is that she thought she outsmarted GOD. That's stupid. She had no way of knowing how her carefully constructed plan would end. As such, if an all-knowing deity saw it one way, she was probably just another variable he already knew about.


Additionally, we are given the "choice" to believe in God and live life in paradise or not to believe in God and live in eternal agony in Hell. Gee, which one should I choose? Free will indeed...

Pop-Christianity bullshit. Judaists don't believe we go to Hell, which makes me think the old testament doesn't bring this up. And I'm almost certain Jesus only mentions Hell when he's casting demons out of people. Maybe Paul or someone else brings it up in the following books (which fits; you read Paul's letters and realize almost instantly that he's egotistical and possibly crazy), but you don't really hear either God or Jesus bring it up. Revelations mentions it, but Revelations is a prophesy from a devout Christian, which makes me think it's at best an enigma wrapped in a metaphor.

Mostly I think Heaven and Hell are handy tools to keep the flock in line, no matter Jesus's divinity or lack thereof.


For people claiming to be so against 'God' you surely use only one religious view to base your perspective on, when they're tons of other perspectives of 'God' and the nature of it.

Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case we are having a discussion about Revelations. That does mean it's fair to direct criticism toward Christianity. Save this complaint for the next time someone says "theists" but means "Christians" God knows it happens often enough in this forum.

[nrj]

If there actually is a divine being out there controling the universe, I hardly doubt we can outsmart him. I would not call it overreaction, Phillosopher. I would have created an argue about wether the Apocalypse exists or not. Any way, I can't see any reason to post in this thread. I will leave gracestamper alone with her (in my opinion) strange ideas.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I did overreact. A discussion about the Apocalypse would've been cool, and I was getting a really bad case of tunnel-vision. I'm sorry I was such a jackass. And I really don't want you to just walk away from the thread, because you're a smart guy and I'm always interested in what you have to say. I'm really, really sorry, nrj.

[nrj]

Ok, I'll stay. Here's a thing that have crossed my mind: How the hell will all the stars fall down on Earth, gracestamper?

[nrj]

Now about the apocalyspe, it is coming. I feel rather tempered to comment this. But I don't want to risk a pissing contest, and will only say that I don't believe in it.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

*chokes on his Sprite*

Holy Hell! Two people, with different religious beliefs, agreeing to disagree, on the internet? OMGWTFBBQ?!?

(Apologies if this is a tad too snarky. I've had a hell of a day. And it's 8:00 AM)


Ok, I'll stay. Here's a thing that have crossed my mind: How the hell will all the stars fall down on Earth, gracestamper?

I feel I should point out that Revelations was written by a man in the 6th century at the very latest. (And actually, if it's true, it was probably written in the first. So...) If you were a first-century Germanic sheepherder, and you saw a meteor shower, and then you looked up and the night sky was completely dark, what would you think? That might be what this guy saw.

Yes, a dark night sky is scientifically highly unlikely. But it could probably be explained, and even if not... well, God could step into the picture. Bending the light subtly away from Earth isn't as wildly crazy as burning balls of gas many times the size of earth falling out of the sky.

[nrj]

Yes, a dark night sky is scientifically highly unlikely. But it could probably be explained, and even if not... well, God could step into the picture. Bending the light subtly away from Earth isn't as wildly crazy as burning balls of gas many times the size of earth falling out of the sky. Well, the Bible does not really make any scientific sense at all. In fact, it even reject science. And when we ask if God could be almighty enough to make a rock large enough to make it impossible for him to lift it, then they say it would break the laws of logic and nature... And stars FALLING on Earth ain't breaking the laws of logic!? But, I know, I know... This will be a pissing contest...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Not at all. It's not a pissing contest if you have specific questions. The "bible defies science" might call for some examples, but we've got one to focus on.

As for the "create a rock he can't lift" bit, I always just thought that God would have infinite strength and infinite... creativity? Sure. He can create something infinitely big, and he can then lift that thing. Asking God to count past infinity, however, is just silly.

[nrj]

Why not simply break the laws of infinity with his infinity?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Because infinity is just a vague, ethereal concept for us. We can't really define it, so we can't ask him to break it. Can he make it bigger? Yep. Can he lift it then? Yep.

I guess another way to look at it is to think of those two abilities (strength and creativity) as two towers, standing next to one another, going upward forever and ever and ever. Asking, "Which one is taller?" isn't going to get an answer.

[nrj]

A point there. But, he should be able to break the laws of physics very easily. He did create materia out of vacum, after all.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I totally agree there. I will say that, if I were in his position, I would prefer subtle nudging to out-and-out breaking the rules like glass. But I'm obviously unqualified for the position of God, so that's just my two cents.

[nrj]

so that's just my two cents. Just out of curiosity, what does that mean?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Well, it means, "That's just my opinion." I'm not really sure where it comes from, thought. Maybe it's just throwing a meager contribution in, sort of joining the discussion, but admitting you don't have much to add. Or maybe it has something to do with the two-cent piece...

*thinks for a minute*

Bloody hell. This is gonna bug me all day. My high school actually had a dictionary of sayings in the library - I constantly wish I still had access to that damn thing.

[nrj]

Well, I aren't really high on english idioms. That expression was pretty damn good! I'll use it from now on! (No one cares, I know :crazy:)