Christianity-one Of The Sickest!

[Beatnik Bob]

There's this thing going on in my community, it's this thing called “The Hell House" whose intent is to convert people to Christianity.

You go in and they have you put your name on a piece of paper. Then you watch a movie about how a young woman is raped by her boyfriend, and abandoned by her parents when she's like 16 in some ghetto, and her boy friend is killed in a gang fight, and she dies giving birth to the baby, so it's aborted (it shows the whole process). Then it shows her going to hell and being tortured. (And 11 year old children are allowed to see this). And then people will come out into the viewing area wearing demon costumes, and scream, "You're going to Hell!" And suppose you signed your name on the paper as: Mr. SoupJacket, they'd scream, "You're going to hell Mr. SoupJacket!" (etc.) (Note: they had a woman in the movie, and women are generally thaught of as "evil" in Christianity).

That's just plain sick! A bunch of Christians should just get together and make a band called, The Extremely Disturbed Club Band, Complete With Distorted Ideology

And in addition I've noticed allot of people are becoming really anti-Semitic (well at least in my community.....I don't even want to think about what's happening in the south). Like there was an article in the newspaper about how allot of "Christians" want the U.S.A. (and probably the whole world) to be under one religion: “Christ”-ianity

While I realize not every Christian believes in this "You're going to Hell!" idea, but I'm sorry to say the extremely vast majority dose. So don't mistake me for calling all Christians sick of mind, (even though it generally is a morbid and sick religion).

[Keeblergiant]

Yesssssss...I want to go to hell too!

[Mezurashi]

Heaven - Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Tammy Faye Baker, GW Bush and the Olsen Twins.

Hell - Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Buddy Holly, Every Blues Player Known, Every Stripper and Prostitute, Everyone worth paying attention to and me, most likely.

Knowing where one is headed, I can't help but feel more comfortable going to where my friends and peers are going to be.

Hell, fo me, would be to be sent to Heaven - a bunch of lily-white, holier than thou God folk does not an afterlife make, unless you're as bland and brainwashed as Ned Flanders.

[autryn2]

I don't know if you guys are fishing for an argument but...

I also think its' kind of extreme to have people yelling "you are going to hell" at you,
mainly because 1) we're not supposed to judge and 2) christians on earth right now are supposed to be servants and show their love, not their contempt but...

based on much of the comments made on this board many here will probably end up in hell if 1) your comments reflect how you really are and 2) you don't change.

God is not about rules/hatred/hell... God is about LOVE. Not sex...LOVE.
I was given a vision of God (as a gift from Him) and in this vision He SPOKE to me.
I cannot express in words the POWER, MAJESTY, and LOVE conveyed by His spoken Word. Physically hits you like a baseball bat or being shot (not in terms of pain but in terms of impact). Even though I was aware of Him taking pains to be gentle, His Words thundered into my being unlike any other experience I have ever had. Simply in-describe-able.

My belief is that we are here because we wanted to show God that we could still Love Him even though we were apart from His great LOVE/POWER/MAJESTY. Love Him even though we were apart from His presence. My belief is that most have forgotton what it is like to be in His Presence... to experience how much He loves us.

Mezurashi, when you and Keeblergiant stand before Him again, and remember His Love, you both will be ashamed of what you have written on this board.

Peace

[Mirazh]

You know i've never understood Christianity that much. Looking outside oneself for something (a god)is kind of a form of infatuation. Infatution can turn into some ugly things. Within is where love comes from extending outward and everywhere.

Just a little Zen for ya.

[nrj]

Mezurashi, when you and Keeblergiant stand before Him again, and remember His Love, you both will be ashamed of what you have written on this board.

<< Crickets shirping >>

Very scary...

[autryn2]

Mirazh:

I have the little Zen companion and have read most of it.
My favorite story is about a man running from 2 tigers. He jumps over a cliff and grabs hold of a vine growing out of the face of the cliff. He looks below and sees another tiger waiting to eat him. Two mice (above him) start to bite and chew thru the vine he is holding. His death is certain. Then, he notices a strawberry plant growing beside him out of the cliff face. He reaches out and plucks a strawberry and eats it. How sweet it tasted!........... That one is my favorite.
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You said "Looking outside oneself for something (a god)is kind of a form of infatuation."

What I was talking about was reality... not mental exercise. God IS real... not a concept. BTW... He is not 'a god', He is "THE GOD" (only living God and creator of all physical existence). All other 'gods' are man-made, not living, and ARE mental concepts.

What I see is imperfect people (Christians), with all their faults and prejudices struggle to represent that which is perfect and evil men/women (non-Christians who call themselves Christian) distort opinion of the general public of what being a Christian is supposed to be.

[Mirazh]

What I was talking about was reality... not mental exercise. God IS real... not a concept. BTW... He is not 'a god', He is "THE GOD" (only living God and creator of all physical existence). All other 'gods' are man-made, not living, and ARE mental concepts.

Sorry, I didn't know Zen was not a part of reality. Zen is considered a way of life, work, and an art form. It is about dealing with things that are going on at the moment instead of being wrapped up in thoughts. I don't think you can get closer to reality than that.


What I see is imperfect people (Christians), with all their faults and prejudices struggle to represent that which is perfect and evil men/women (non-Christians who call themselves Christian) distort opinion of the general public of what being a Christian is supposed to be.

What happened to thou shall not judge? Show them how glowing you are from Christianity and they may look towards you for their path to God.

[nrj]

What I was talking about was reality... not mental exercise. God IS real... not a concept.
"Conjecture" should be enough to describe this post.

What I see is imperfect people (Christians), with all their faults and prejudices struggle to represent that which is perfect and evil men/women (non-Christians who call themselves Christian) distort opinion of the general public of what being a Christian is supposed to be. Yeah, unless you HATE all gays, you ain't a real christian... Right?

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I was given a vision of God (as a gift from Him) and in this vision He SPOKE to me.
Many people from many religions have said the same thing with completely different accounts of their "encounters" that contradict the existence of YOUR God. Obviously, you don't believe what they say. So why should we believe you? People with strong beliefs or worries about ANYTHING, whether it's religion, or their job, or anything, will manifest those beliefs in the form of dreams and daydreams. You're being fooled by your subconscious...

[Keeblergiant]

based on much of the comments made on this board many here will probably end up in hell if 1) your comments reflect how you really are and 2) you don't change.

Yep, I'm worried about hell. I mean, it is obvious that God exists and that he's so loving and benevolent that he'll roast me in hell for the rest of eternity. I really do want to believe in the rediculous notion that there is some almighty being out there that created everything, and that somehow we will live on after death. I guess God steals the brains from our bodies after we're buried, doesn't he? To me, it's incredible the type of non-sense people will believe.



Mezurashi, when you and Keeblergiant stand before Him again, and remember His Love, you both will be ashamed of what you have written on this board.

I stand up before myself in the mirror every day and I'm never ashamed.

As a side note, I'm more ashamed of theists than I am for me. No adult should still believe in fairy tales.


Yeah, unless you HATE all gays, you ain't a real christian... Right?

HAHAHA.

[Mirazh]

I guess God steals the brains from our bodies after we're buried, doesn't he?

hahahaha gotta remember that one

[autryn2]

Mirazh wrote "Sorry, I didn't know Zen was not a part of reality."
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Uh, I was actually talking about this statement: "Looking outside oneself for something (a god)is kind of a form of infatuation."
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Mirazh, zen is a cool way to LOOK at life here on earth but it explains nothing about who created the universe, why are we here, do we exist after death, where do we go, etc...... but it IS fun to read and gives great advise on how to LOOK at life. It does not, however, tell you how to inherit eternal life.
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Mirazh wrote "What happened to thou shall not judge? Show them how glowing you are from Christianity and they may look towards you for their path to God."

Could not have put it better! That is EXACTLY what Christians SHOULD do. Christ said the same thing.

From Matthew Chapter 5: 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Sadly, many don't understand that even when they are earnestly seeking God.
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nrj wrote "Conjecture should be enough to describe this post."
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For you, maybe, but you have not seen what I have seen and have not experienced what I have experienced. Like it or not, God IS. Not wanting it to be true does not change reality.
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nrj wrote "Yeah, unless you HATE all gays, you ain't a real christian... Right?"
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Being a practicing homosexual is sinning... but so is having lust for women other than your wife, hatred for others, baring false witness, violence, having anything in your life more important than God, etc.... It takes repentence to get forgiveness from God and most practicing homosexuals simply don't or won't accept that what they are doing is recurrent sin. Christians shouldn't hate gays, but they shouldn't accept what they do as being 'OK' because it's not. Sin is 'as a line' to God. In other words God doesn't 'rate' sin. All sin has the same penalty.... death. So Christians should treat gays like people who are perpetual liars and won't stop. They should try to get them to understand that what they are doing is wrong and help them repent (change).

[autryn2]

Keeblergiant wrote "I stand up before myself in the mirror every day and I'm never ashamed."
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You are a drop of water... a raindrop on a short journey from a raincloud to the ground. As you fall you think yourself invincible and will live forever, but how long will you last when the Sun comes out???
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Keeblergiant wrote "he's so loving and benevolent that he'll roast me in hell for the rest of eternity."
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You speak as if God has done nothing for you..... this parable is for you, Keeblergiant... you are the tenant.

From Matthew Chapter 21:
Jesus said:
There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.

38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"

[Mirazh]

This is the way I see religions. You could believe in a pie graph or you could a bar graph. Different graphs, same information basically. I guess it's just the graph we choose is the most easiest for us to read. Even athiests have their own graph, but for me Christianity is not the easiest for me to read. I shouldnt say easiest but more a less enlightening. Different graphs same info basically but seen differently. yada yada yada

[Mezurashi]

Being a practicing homosexual is sinning... but so is having lust for women other than your wife, hatred for others, baring false witness, violence, having anything in your life more important than God, etc.... It takes repentence to get forgiveness from God and most practicing homosexuals simply don't or won't accept that what they are doing is recurrent sin. Christians shouldn't hate gays, but they shouldn't accept what they do as being 'OK' because it's not. Sin is 'as a line' to God. In other words God doesn't 'rate' sin. All sin has the same penalty.... death.

roflmao - autisti...autryn, I wonder if you can see past the God Blinders how single minded, prejudiced, bigoted and basically hate-filled your statements about Sinners are. You display none of the Christian Charity which is one of the Virtues except for fellow Christians who fit into your small and selective category of 'Correct Christians.'

If/when I stand before God I am going to rip a huge strip off him for condoning rape of children (as long as they are heretics or infidels), spousal abuse (the 'Rule Of Thumb' regs regarding the size of the stick a man beats his wife with), setting bears to kill some little brats who teased a bald monk (old testament God at His finest), and generally being as inept, useless and selfish a ruler as GW Bush (you go to Hell if you don't Worship Me ... REALLY loving and kind stuff there).

God has spoken to me in my life, but He LIED. He spoke to me through his temporal representatives (known as Church Elders) and they filled my ears with the same kind of one-sided, prejudicial, bigoted hate crap that you're spewing. It is God's Responsibility to Insure that those chosen to handle temporal matters of the Church are, in fact, living up to their responsibility as the Chosen of God. And the last time I checked, Priests incessantly boning choirboys up their butts is definitely a sin no matter where one is from.

Reconcile the fact that you worship a selfish deity who demands blood sacrifice (even if only in symbols) and has decreed that all who worship Him must engage in cannabilism (symbolic, the Sacrament, but it's still eating Christ once you get past the ritual).

and as for me, well, I guess I'll save a place next to me in Hell for you, that way we can argue the point for eternity.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I'm sorry, autryn2, but YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE. You don't like gays for the STUPID reason that the Bible says so. Well, there's this little section of the Bible called Leviticus that Catholics and Christians are DEFYING GOD by not following. So if you can ignore those parts of the Bible that you conveniently want to, then you can ignore the gay part as well. If you claim to hate gays because the Bible says so, then YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE. For a humorous look at Leviticus, here is a great letter written to everybody's favorite moron, George Dubya. This was posted several months ago by one of the other posters here at AO, but I'm sorry that I can't remember who it was...

Dear President Bush,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I
have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and
support a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. As you
said, "In the eyes of God, marriage is between a man a woman." I try to
share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination . . . end of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of
God's laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that a man is allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of menstrual uncleanness--Leviticus 15:19-24. The problem is,
most women take offense when they're asked if they're unclean.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord--Leviticus 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Leviticus 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of
abomination?

7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does
my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus
19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made
of two different kinds of thread (cotton-polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Leviticus
24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair,
as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus
20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[Sammy56]

Wow. It feels like forever since I've been here.


Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob
There's this thing going on in my community, it's this thing called “The Hell House" whose intent is to convert people to Christianity.
I understand why you find this sick and I agree with your opinion.



Originally Posted by autryn2
God is not about rules/hatred/hell... God is about LOVE. Not sex...LOVE.
The problem autryn, is that most Christians do make it out to be rules, hatred, and hell. I've often heard the "you have to do this, this, and that or you will burn for all eternity" speech or the "God hates you and will smite you because you have done <insert action here>" rant. And what does sex have to do with any of this? You say God is about love, and that He is perfect, but then you say that people will be put in hell for eternity for not following the rules set down by him. To me, this is nothing but hypocrisy. I am nowhere near perfect and I never have nor will ever claim to be, but I would never sentence even my worst enemy to eternal torment for doing something that makes me mad, let alone someone I love.


Originally Posted by autryn2
All other 'gods' are man-made, not living, and ARE mental concepts.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that YOUR God is not just a mental concept? If not, then you have no right to tell other members of the board that they are wrong and will come to regret what they are saying. That sounds an awful lot like judging to me.


Originally Posted by autryn2
most practicing homosexuals simply don't or won't accept that what they are doing is recurrent sin.
Probably because most homosexuals do not think what they are doing is sin.


Originally Posted by autryn2
Christians shouldn't hate gays, but they shouldn't accept what they do as being 'OK' because it's not.
Why do you think it is not okay? And please give me more then just a quote from the Bible.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I swore to God I wasn't going to reply to this topic. And yet here I am.

Most of the Christians I know find the idea of Hell House abhorent. And many don't believe in hell, or at least don't agree that all non-Christians are going there. Christianity has had a troubled past, I wouldn't argue with that, but I think it's more than possible to mine something good out of the wreckage.

Now, off with the kid gloves. Beatnik Bob, how is your calling Christians "morbid and sick" any goddamn different than Nazi's calling Judaists the same thing? I'm just curious. I'm sick and tired of your adolescent crusade. Oh, and the crazy rules Christians enforce are based on THE GODDAMN TORAH.

Keeblergiant, I just loved that "fairy tale" comment. I honestly don't care if you're an atheist, but I'd rather not have to listen to you stroking yourself to the sound of your own logic.

Autryn, I have no problem with Christianity's god. I just have a problem with yours. The God you worship is petty and cruel, a firm protector of all the laws you agree with. If the god watching over us is so hard-hearted as to fling every nonbeliever into the pits of hell, I'd rather live a thousand eternities of torture than let one word of praise for that god pass my lips.

Honestly, if I had access to the Big Red Button, this world would be a smoking ruin in five minutes. It's not like we humans are doing anything worthwhile with it. I'm tired of the petty bias, the holier-than-thou attitude coming from every arena in this godforsaken argument. As soon as you people realize how stupid it is to condemn people based on one incredibly vague title, the better off we'll be.

(I'll probably have to apologize in the morning, but at the moment I don't fucking care. Grow up, all of you.)

[Keeblergiant]

Keeblergiant, I just loved that "fairy tale" comment. I honestly don't care if you're an atheist, but I'd rather not have to listen to you stroking yourself to the sound of your own logic.

Giggidy-giggidy-giggidy, allllll riiiight.

[nrj]

For you, maybe, but you have not seen what I have seen and have not experienced what I have experienced. Like it or not, God IS. Not wanting it to be true does not change reality. Ah, I always fancy a bit conjecture at the morning!

You're response was, frankly, very stupid. As B.Nye once put it, you could've said:

"For you, maybe, but you have not been to the north pole"
[SIDENOTE] I have been about 5000 kilometers from it, closer then autryn2, but don't mind that [SIDENOTE]
"and you have not seen what I saw there and not experienced what I experienced there. Like it or not, Santa IS. Not wanting it to be true does not change reality."




Being a practicing homosexual is sinning... but so is having lust for women other than your wife, hatred for others, baring false witness, violence, having anything in your life more important than God, etc.... It takes repentence to get forgiveness from God and most practicing homosexuals simply don't or won't accept that what they are doing is recurrent sin. Simple to answer: They don't think they're doing wrong when they love someone, so they wont stop.


Christians shouldn't hate gays, but they shouldn't accept what they do as being 'OK' because it's not. Why? I'd LOVE to hear how love is wrong, without using the Bible as an example.
Sin is 'as a line' to God. In other words God doesn't 'rate' sin. All sin has the same penalty.... death. So is killing, but It took quite q while for David koresh to die.
So Christians should treat gays like people who are perpetual liars and won't stop. They should try to get them to understand that what they are doing is wrong and help them repent (change). As we gosu players say: gl hf, or, good luck have fun. You wont convert them, because you can't. They were born like that, but some of them don't realise it until they become much more mature. So if you're going to convert them (without being a jerk) then my advice to you, is to drop it. You wont succeed, and even if you do, you're doing wrong... Or do you have a reason you could present me?

[Mezurashi]

I swore to God I wasn't going to reply to this topic. And yet here I am.

Thank you, I needed a Big smile this morning.


(I'll probably have to apologize in the morning, but at the moment I don't fucking care. Grow up, all of you.)

Roflmao - I know how you feel and personally I take no offense. Better you vent/spew/rant than hold it in - your head might explode. Plus you made good points, which often occurs in the 'hot times.'

So ...

[bluenose_ian]

I think christiananity is full of s*it..They are all waiting for the end of days and fourhorseman to turn up and end the world..waiting to be called by god and all those who dont believe go to hell or sumthin..also they are waiting for this temple to be built in jeruslelem where a mosque is now and that will start the begining of the end

I dont believe and dont want to believe in this end days crap and wait to be called by god.. i want to preserve this world and its people, i dont want it too happen so i can be called....Im not a bad guy but im gonna be casted in hell cuz i dont believe well fu*k u...

I wouldnt be suprised if some christian extemists start armageddon to see the end days..

[Marajadex]

I wouldnt be suprised if some christian extemists start armageddon to see the end days..Haven't they already!
"They" say the end of times will start at the site of the garden of eden where it all began... Isn't that believed to be in Iraq? And hasn't some "christian extremist" set about a war there?

[autryn2]

ROFL.... and the enemies of God unite.

Seriously, I appreciate all the attention and everything but it will take SOME TIME to answer all these retorts. This doesn't mean I'm unwilling to do it, I just have a job which requires my attention. Maybe by thursday evening I can get to it.... and I will to the best of my ability.

Till then, I have been reading your responses.... and enjoying them immensly... they are hilarious.
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One very sad note... MANY people who hate Christianity do so because of one of two scenarios: 1) they've had a bad experience with some well-meaning but ignorant Christian (someone who THINKS they know what Christianity is) or 2) they've had a bad experience with an evil person who claims to be a Christian.
In any event, that is truly sad. Jesus Himself warned against presenting a bad face for the unbeliever (being a stumbling block for someone else).

I advocate seeking God for yourself and understanding that even people who are saved (Christians) are still fallable humans and those people still have prejudaces and don't do everything perfect. I know of only ONE who was perfect... and they crucified Him.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

ROFL.... and the enemies of God unite.
Why on earth do you consider non-believers to be "enemies" of God? How naive ARE you? I'm against the lack of gun control in the U.S., but that doesn't mean that I'm an enemy of the U.S...


One very sad note... MANY people who hate Christianity do so because of one of two scenarios: 1) they've had a bad experience with some well-meaning but ignorant Christian (someone who THINKS they know what Christianity is) or 2) they've had a bad experience with an evil person who claims to be a Christian.
Nope. Neither one. Try again. Christianity doesn't make any sense at all. That's it! You preach about bringing peace and love to the world while the actions of your God imply the opposite. What you fail to understand is that us "enemies" of God want peace and love on earth just like you do, but we strive to do it WITHOUT interference from a vengeful God. Society is WORSE off under God - see this link (http://forums.armageddononline.org/showthread.php?t=5213) if you haven't read this thread already. What truly is SAD is that you are SO useless that you actually need an invisible man to help you to achieve peace and love on earth, and one who is a vengeful butcher at that! Open your eyes and you'll see many REAL people, including the "enemies" of God, who want to accomplish this just as you do. Stop worshipping an invisible man and DO SOMETHING to help this world...

[Beatnik Bob]

Most of the Christians I know find the idea of Hell House abhorent. And many don't believe in hell, or at least don't agree that all non-Christians are going there. Christianity has had a troubled past, I wouldn't argue with that, but I think it's more than possible to mine something good out of the wreckage. I already have said, when I started this thread, that not all Christians act this way!


Now, off with the kid gloves. Beatnik Bob, how is your calling Christians "morbid and sick" any goddamn different than Nazi's calling Judaists the same thing? I'm just curious. I'm sick and tired of your adolescent crusade. Oh, and the crazy rules Christians enforce are based on THE GODDAMN TORAH.
1. I called them morbid because, have you ever walked into a church and seen bloody Jesus hanging from crosses?

2. The Christian dogma, is really based on the NT, which isn't apart of the Torah. And they follow the Creed Of Nicene.


Honestly, if I had access to the Big Red Button, this world would be a smoking ruin in five minutes. It's not like we humans are doing anything worthwhile with it. Here, here!!!!!!! I don't really enjoy the human race that much either (I started a thread about how the Police force is a load of crap).


I'm tired of the petty bias, the holier-than-thou attitude coming from every arena in this godforsaken argument. As soon as you people realize how stupid it is to condemn people based on one incredibly vague title, the better off we'll be. I truly am sorry if people debating religion has made you upset.


Is your premenstral cycle over?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I already have said, when I started this thread, that not all Christians act this way!

Then why are you constantly attacking Christianity, instead of the people who use it badly? I'm not just irritated by this one post, Bob, I'm annoyed by the trend.


I called them morbid because, have you ever walked into a church and seen bloody Jesus hanging from crosses?

Considering Christians consider it one of the most important events ever, I'd be surprised if I didn't. Of course, generally more prominent (in the churches I've gone to, anyway) are images of the resurrection. Granted, cross in the front of the church, we know what that represents, but Christians consider the death a trancendence. You can't throw out one image without context.


The Christian dogma, is really based on the NT, which isn't apart of the Torah.

Where does homophobia come from? The Torah.

Where did the belief that women are useless except as child-bearers come from? The Torah.

The belief that slaves are divinely A-OK? The Torah.

I know Christians believe they're worth more than everyone else. Kind've like how the Jews were told by God to slaughter all those who lived in the place they were "destined" to have? That was in... what was it? Oh yeah. The Torah.

I only care about dogma when it sets itself against innocents who didn't ask to be involved. Christians may do this a lot, but if you pay any attention you should realize there's a long and winding history of this. And it starts in the Torah.


I truly am sorry if people debating religion has made you upset.

Well, I was going to offer you a tall, cold glass of stupid, but I see you've helped yourself.

I don't have any problem with debating religion. I do have a problem when people get agressive and accuse other groups of being inferior. You crossed that line awhile back, and I'm sick of listening to you rant. I'm also sick of your moronic obsession with it - practically every time you post on this site it's to bitch about the Christians. Sometimes I wonder if you lie awake at night, terrified there are Baptists under the bed.

You wanna debate religion, I'll be happy to join in. You wanna be childish, you'll find out there are limits to my patience. That's the way it is.

[bluenose_ian]

Hey Philosopher...The core of christians are just waiting for end days..is this your view?

How far would you go to see it happen?

Im not a muslim or christian or anythin else and i want peace on earth but not at the expense of innocent people who dont believe in it..

I have to say anyone who wants to destroy me and mother earth through some belief is my enemy because i think it is f**ked up that u want the fourhorsman to ride and the 2nd coming and all that and cause armageddon and reject some people because they dont believe in that..

Talk about a new world order how f**ked up that is...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Hey Philosopher...The core of christians are just waiting for end days..is this your view?

I'm not actually a Christian. And no, I don't think you're right. A lot of Christians are interested in Armageddon, but I hardly think they're "just" waiting around. Besides, prophesy is interesting. I can't blame anyone for being a little curious.


I have to say anyone who wants to destroy me and mother earth through some belief is my enemy because i think it is f**ked up that u want the fourhorsman to ride and the 2nd coming and all that and cause armageddon and reject some people because they dont believe in that..

*shrugs* I don't know if you can say Christians want this to happen. They just believe it will. If I wrote a treatize about how close we are to nuclear annihilation, would you accuse me of starting a war?

And it's not fucked up, not really. Yeah, we've got seven years of horrible death, according to the bible, but the end result is peace on earth and the end of death and sin. I don't agree with the belief some Christians have that all non-believers will go to hell, that is a little screwed up. But believing the world will eventually end isn't wrong. Eventually, the world will end. (Although that may be a long, long, long time from now.)

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Yeah, we've got seven years of horrible death, according to the bible, but the end result is peace on earth and the end of death and sin.
Yeah, but why do we have to go through the seven years of horrible death? Can't God just be a nice guy for a change and skip straight to the peace on earth stage?

[autryn2]

OK... where was I???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
B.NyeTheUruk-Hai wrote " You're being fooled by your subconscious..."

No... I just know truth when I experience it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mezurashi wrote "I wonder if you can see past the God Blinders how single minded, prejudiced, bigoted and basically hate-filled your statements about Sinners are. You display none of the Christian Charity which is one of the Virtues except for fellow Christians who fit into your small and selective category of 'Correct Christians.'"

Hahaha... talk about putting words in my mouth.... geeze! I don't hate anyone! I love people... ALL people... ESPECIALLY people who are sinners. Know why??? Because God Loved me (and you and everyone else) BEFORE I recognized His Love for me. God didn't send His Son Christ into a world of believers to save the righteous... he sent Christ into a world of unbelievers to save them. God loved me BEFORE I loved Him back and He still loves those who don't recognize His authority and sovereignty (like most on this board). How can I hate these people.... not only does God love them, but I WAS one of them before I understood that Love.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mezurashi wrote "It is God's Responsibility to Insure that those chosen to handle temporal matters of the Church are, in fact, living up to their responsibility as the Chosen of God. And the last time I checked, Priests incessantly boning choirboys up their butts is definitely a sin no matter where one is from."

I agree totally that when priests (or anyone) engage in pedophelia(sp?) it is a sin BUT you are forgetting one thing: FREE WILL .... God gives all people free will to ensure that He is not a dictator. Those that want to come to Him can and those who do not want to come to Him don't have to. If God gives free will to some He must give free will to all people to be fair. When a priest or rabbi or preacher or deacon or ANYONE else sins IT IS NOT in God's will for them to do that but it must be allowed for free will to work. Otherwise God is MAKING people be a certain way instead of LETTING them be the way they want to be. But don't worry... it is fair because ALL will be held accountable for their actions (and inactions).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

More later.......

[Beatnik Bob]

Then why are you constantly attacking Christianity, instead of the people who use it badly? I'm not just irritated by this one post, Bob, I'm annoyed by the trend.
I would appreciate it if you read the beginning of this thread, dumb ass. I wrote about how the M-A-J-O-R-I-T-Y (its spelt out for you) believe this way. Repeat after me: majority.... Good job! **Reaches over and pats you on the head**


Considering Christians consider it one of the most important events ever, I'd be surprised if I didn't. Of course, generally more prominent (in the churches I've gone to, anyway) are images of the resurrection. Granted, cross in the front of the church, we know what that represents, but Christians consider the death a transcendence. You can't throw out one image without context.
I said it was morbid, and didn't state that it was important or not.


Where did the belief that women are useless except as child-bearers come from? The Torah. can you do a Torah quote on this?


The belief that slaves are divinely A-OK? The Torah.
Actually, they were prisoners of war, genius. If I had a choice, I would rather become a slave for seven years (only seven years, not a lifespan) than be executed as a prisoner of war.


I know Christians believe they're worth more than everyone else. Kind've like how the Jews were told by God to slaughter all those who lived in the place they were "destined" to have? That was in... what was it? Oh yeah. The Torah. If that were true, then why did G-d tell them to cross the sea of reeds, rather than going through the Sinai peninsula to fight a tribe on there way out?


I only care about dogma when it sets itself against innocents who didn't ask to be involved. Christians may do this a lot, but if you pay any attention you should realize there's a long and winding history of this. And it starts in the Torah. **sighs** If only those Christians had an oral Torah......

And actually DarkAce, the Mishna is from 3000 years ago. For example, the only way people today know about ancient african music, is from a few pictures of people with drums, music was passed down orally.

I mean, what would we do without a Mishna? I don't know how much you know about the Hebrew language but, it can get pretty confusing when you just follow what the Torah says. The Torah is written with letters, no vowels, or punctuation included. Like, if I wanted to write the word fish I would write it like: Dalet, Gimmel. Because fish is dag in Hebrew. But when it is written, I would put a small line under the dalet, which makes 'ah'. So fish in the Torah is written 'dg'. This could mean many things. Its like writing 'pin,' 'PN'. This could be pin, pain, pen pun, etc. Usually we can figure it out from the sentence its in (assuming we know where the sentence begins and ends). But there are many sentences that can be a bit tricky.......without a Mishnah that is........


I'm sick of listening to you rant.
Well, well, well, look whose talking....


practically every time you post on this site it's to bitch about the Christians. Well why not? It’s about time someone condemns Christianity, after all Christianity has done.


Sometimes I wonder if you lie awake at night, terrified there are Baptists under the bed. :rolling:

Actually, have you ever heard of Jerry Falwell?

[Marajadex]

Come on folks... Haven't we proved that there is no one and only "Religion"...
It really takes an understanding of all parts of different "Religions" to really begin to understand what "Spirituality" is.

[bluenose_ian]

I'm not actually a Christian. And no, I don't think you're right. A lot of Christians are interested in Armageddon, but I hardly think they're "just" waiting around. Besides, prophesy is interesting. I can't blame anyone for being a little curious.



*shrugs* I don't know if you can say Christians want this to happen. They just believe it will. If I wrote a treatize about how close we are to nuclear annihilation, would you accuse me of starting a war?

And it's not fucked up, not really. Yeah, we've got seven years of horrible death, according to the bible, but the end result is peace on earth and the end of death and sin. I don't agree with the belief some Christians have that all non-believers will go to hell, that is a little screwed up. But believing the world will eventually end isn't wrong. Eventually, the world will end. (Although that may be a long, long, long time from now.)


The world will end one day aiii.. no shit sherlock...

I agree prophecy is interesting and i have read nostrodomus but i dont worship him.
Ok christians believe it will happen but they are still worshipping him and the end result will be the same if the prophecy comes true, so in a way i see that as wanting it to happen cuz christians have not walked away and said no i dont think this is good or i dont want to be a part of it... no they except it meaning it doesnt bother them,

I dont follow the bible that much and i think i fall into the category of a sinner cuz im not married.

Does this mean christians want to rid the earth of my kind? so everlasting peace will be on earth..

sounds like a holocaust to me....someone who doesnt fit in the criteria like me and many more

To me thats just as bad as what hitler did with his perfect little race....

just in a timescale to convert people or end of days when all the people that dont fit dont get in the gates...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I mean, what would we do without a Mishna? I don't know how much you know about the Hebrew language but, it can get pretty confusing when you just follow what the Torah says.
How about we don't follow what ANY religion says, ESPECIALLY yours, Bobbo. I agree with Foelhe. I'm getting pretty fucking sick of hearing how flawless and divine the Torah and the Mishna are. Guess what? They're NOT. As far as I'm concerned, you can take both of them and shove them up your righteous ass. And after you do that, eat some corn and squeeze them back out again, at which point they'll be infinitely improved. No offense, Bobbo. I wish that ALL religions would do the same. This world would be a better place for it. If there IS a God, then the only person on these boards whose vision of religion I would emulate would be Foelhe's. No dogma. No bigotry. No blackmail. NO BULLSHIT. So do us all a favor and stick your head back up your ass where it belongs...

[Assassin X]

Well didn't bother readin any responses, I'm assuming most are just flames back and forth.

But I gotta say we have "Hell" houses localy for Christians and they arent anything like that. They are nothing like that, to me that sounds like some whack job group of christians that are "think" they are christians and are just making christians look bad as always. Thats just sad.

[Beatnik Bob]

Billy, since you do not practice Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. you should not judge religions that you don't know anything about. So don't start making accusations like a black mail God, because if you knew anything about other peoples religions, you would know that your accusations are false.

[Keeblergiant]

Billy, since you do not practice Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. you should not judge religions that you don't know anything about. So don't start making accusations like a black mail God, because if you knew anything about other peoples religions, you would know that your accusations are false.

Just because he doesn't practice a religion now doesn't mean that he hasn't practiced one before. I know I have...and somewhere along the line I couldn't reconcile what I felt with what the religion was telling me.

[Sammy56]

Oringinally Posted by autryn2
ROFL.... and the enemies of God unite.
Just because some of us do not share the same beliefs as you does NOT mean we are enemies of God. Almost every single one of my friends is a different religion and I do not consider them my enemy nor do they consider me their enemy. This is one of the main problems I have with Christains-some of them believe that if you are not with them 100%, you are their enemy all the way, which is not the case at all.


Oringinally Posted by autryn2
Till then, I have been reading your responses.... and enjoying them immensly... they are hilarious.
Looks like your the only one laughing...


Oringinally Posted by autryn2
One very sad note... MANY people who hate Christianity do so because of one of two scenarios: 1) they've had a bad experience with some well-meaning but ignorant Christian (someone who THINKS they know what Christianity is) or 2) they've had a bad experience with an evil person who claims to be a Christian.
No. First, most of us do not hate Christianity, we just did not chose it as our belief system. Big difference. Second, neither of those scenarios apply to me. In my opinion, Christianity is to hypocritical in some areas, mostly in how its followers treat non-believers and how and all-loving God burns people in Hell for eternity if they do not follow a specific set of rules written 1,000 years ago, not because of a particular person. But autryn, people like you are the ones who made me realize that Christianity is a religion with many problems and one that is wise to stay away from.


Oringinally Posted by autryn2
I advocate seeking God for yourself
Yet when someone decides, that upon seeking God, that they do not agree with Christianity and go a different path, you consider them ignorant and "not saved". So basically, you can find God however you want, but if in the end you do not become a Christian, you are damned? That doesn't seem very Christ-like of you.


Oringinally Posted by B.NyeTheUruk-Hai
Yeah, but why do we have to go through the seven years of horrible death? Can't God just be a nice guy for a change and skip straight to the peace on earth stage?
I think it's because humans have a tendency to remember a lesson better if there is hardship involved. I could compare it to you doing something stupid for the first time. We've all done something we "know" we shouldn't do, but if someone stops us before we have a chance to get hurt, we are more likely to repeat it then if we had gone through with our plans and got injured in some form.


Originally Posted by Marajadex
Come on folks... Haven't we proved that there is no one and only "Religion"...It really takes an understanding of all parts of different "Religions" to really begin to understand what "Spirituality" is.
I agree with you. You would think by now that we would have, but some people on this forum think that their religion is the one and only and that they must spend all their freetime trying to convince the "ignorant" masses here that if we do not convert we will come regret it.


Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob
Billy, since you do not practice Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. you should not judge religions that you don't know anything about.
Just because you do not practice a religion does not mean you do not understand it. I do not practice Judaism, Christianity, or Hinduism, but I am far from ignorant about any of them and I think it is the same for Nye. You do not practice Christianity but you imply that you understand it in how you are constantly attacking it.

[nrj]

God gives all people free will to ensure that He is not a dictator. Those that want to come to Him can and those who do not want to come to Him don't have to. If God gives free will to some He must give free will to all people to be fair. When a priest or rabbi or preacher or deacon or ANYONE else sins IT IS NOT in God's will for them to do that but it must be allowed for free will to work. Otherwise God is MAKING people be a certain way instead of LETTING them be the way they want to be. But don't worry... it is fair because ALL will be held accountable for their actions (and inactions). Yeah... When a gargantuan wave comes straight at me, I have the free will to stand there, singing "Paperback writer" by the Beatles, or just die quietly... What a great Lord we have/you wish we have.

[Assassin X]

Just because you do not practice a religion does not mean you do not understand it.

People that do not practice a religion do not understand it completley. Yeah I studied about alot of religions and know alot about them but it doesn't mean I know everything.

Take this topic for example:

If you were a christian or at least the the kind I am (there are many variations of christian religions) you would know this Hell House thing or whatever isn't what a true christian (and/or christian group) would be doing. We wouldn't have such content! Ours would try and lead people to god in a friendly non "thumping" or "sick (like the stated story)" way.


Now... if you weren't a christian but claimed to know about the religion like most people do you would just say what most of you do which is:

So don't mistake me for calling all Christians sick of mind, (even though it generally is a morbid and sick religion).

As you can see most people that claim to "know" about christianity stick all the various types in one group. If you were a christian you would know there are seperate types.

Next issue becomes?:
Now there are "rare" people that aren't christian that get this, but then they say "Well GOD and the BIBLE is still a horribly violent and sick thing if you read it". Stories from the past? Like stoning. Things that were done then. Do you see christians stoning people now (Maybe some whacked out groups that misinterprut the bible)? Thats like saying all germans today are still Nazis because of their pasts. Stupid eh?

Look at the Jewish religion! Theres a new age form of it that the celebs are taking to in hollywood and the Rabbis are having a fit (over the new age version, not the celebes doing it). But ocne again most people say "Its all the same religion.

Anywho. I hope people see my point. I don't care if you beleive in any religion or not. Or claim to know about a religion or not.... just remember some religions branch of into variations.

[nrj]

People that do not practice a religion do not understand it completley. Ignorance. That's it, that's the only word I can use for it. There are proffesors and doctors in religion, who specialises in MANY religions, but don't practice all of them. And I think a proffesor at Harvard or a college like that would know more about, say, hinduism than you.

[Mezurashi]

Billy, since you do not practice Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. you should not judge religions that you don't know anything about. So don't start making accusations like a black mail God, because if you knew anything about other peoples religions, you would know that your accusations are false.

I wonder how you can say this after speaking of God's Punishment to be meted out upon the sinners who are guilty of nothing more than living a lifestyle dissimilar to your own.

Beatnik style christianity, eh? I'm not the one with issues here - get your head out of your colon and adjust, you obviously have no idea what the Beat movement was about, else you wouldn't be using it for your name. If anything, a Beatnik would be the first to REJECT YOU and YOUR VIEWS because they are so NOT Beat in nature.

Learn from History BEFORE you abuse it, you might find yourself with more room in your mouth.

[Keeblergiant]

People that do not practice a religion do not understand it completley. Yeah I studied about alot of religions and know alot about them but it doesn't mean I know everything.


People don't completely understand a religion if they do practice it. I've yet to meet a Christian who has actually read the bible, or knows anything about it besides their minister's interpretation of a few stories in it.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Yeah... When a gargantuan wave comes straight at me, I have the free will to stand there, singing "Paperback writer" by the Beatles, or just die quietly... What a great Lord we have/you wish we have.
Good one, nrj! I've always despised the "free will" bullshit theory. All that God has to do is eliminate evil from the world. But some people say that this would be taking away their free will. Well, the law and my self-imposed morals prevent me from doing anything evil, so does that mean that I don't have any free will? No. Stupid theory...


As you can see most people that claim to "know" about christianity stick all the various types in one group. If you were a christian you would know there are seperate types.
Why the hell are there different types anyway? Christ appeared, did stuff, died on the cross, then ressurrected. There should be only ONE version of Christianity! The old "pick and choose" rears its ugly head AGAIN. The only difference between myself and any of the other "pick and choose" believers here is that I've picked and chosen NOTHING from ANY religion. The believers here have done the SAME thing as me except not as completely or thoroughly as I have...


Stories from the past? Like stoning. Things that were done then. Do you see christians stoning people now (Maybe some whacked out groups that misinterprut the bible)? Thats like saying all germans today are still Nazis because of their pasts. Stupid eh?
Yes, it IS stupid. The lesson that SHOULD be learned here, but probably won't, is that if Christians can drop old Bible rules like stoning, then they can EASILY drop old Bible rules like "thou shalt not be gay". Pick and choose...

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

B.NyeTheUruk-Hai wrote " You're being fooled by your subconscious..."

No... I just know truth when I experience it.
No you don't. There are a TON of known phenomena that cause hallucinations. Here is one article that I came across recently while I was doing research for continuing education credits:

Disorder Has Patients 'Seeing Things'

Charles Bonnet syndrome may affect a large portion of your patients, but you’ll never know, unless you educate yourself, and them, about it.

Leonid Skorin, Jr., O.D., D.O.

An 84-year-old woman, who has advanced atrophic age-related macular degeneration (AMD) and disciform scarring, started “seeing things” a few months ago. Specifically, she continually sees two black Labrador retrievers and three calico kittens. The animals do not make any noise; they just look at her. The woman knows these animals do not exist. She wants to tell her family and doctor about them but decides against doing so. She is afraid that if she tells her family and doctor, they will have her committed.

This patient has Charles Bonnet syndrome (CBS), a condition in which patients experience complex visual hallucinations, often pleasant in nature, that cannot be explained by any disturbance of thought or the presence of a psychiatric disorder.

[Beatnik Bob]

Just because he doesn't practice a religion now doesn't mean that he hasn't practiced one before. I know I have...and somewhere along the line I couldn't reconcile what I felt with what the religion was telling me.
Ok sorry, what I meant is that he obviously doesn't know anything about other culture's religions, when he starts making false accusations.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Bloody hell! Of all the times for the internet to go down for twelve hours! *kicks the network... gently*


Yeah, but why do we have to go through the seven years of horrible death? Can't God just be a nice guy for a change and skip straight to the peace on earth stage?

He could, but keep in mind that "horrible death" isn't as bad when you consider it from an eternal perspective (i.e. We live, we die, we rise again on another plane). Also, it's the human condition. Give someone something free, and they won't care about it. Make them pay for it, they'll see it for what it's worth. Y'know, I think we've had this conversation before...


**sighs** If only those Christians had an oral Torah......

You really think that would matter? Don't be absurd. The reason some Christians are such bastards is that Christianity has the majority vote at the moment. If Judaism was in the same position, I'm sure you guys would be just as war-mongering and arrogant as some Christians are now.


Ok christians believe it will happen but they are still worshipping him and the end result will be the same if the prophecy comes true, so in a way i see that as wanting it to happen cuz christians have not walked away and said no i dont think this is good or i dont want to be a part of it... no they except it meaning it doesnt bother them,

You make a good point. Let me try another tack.

It annoys you that Christians believe the world will end, but they also believe that the end result is the world becoming a paradise, and everyone's lives becoming perfect. So, why does this bother you, exactly? Granted, I'm rather fond of Earth myself, but I think for an actually sustainable utopia, I'd be amenable for something else.


Yeah... When a gargantuan wave comes straight at me, I have the free will to stand there, singing "Paperback writer" by the Beatles, or just die quietly... What a great Lord we have/you wish we have.

I know we've had this argument before.

Nobody is saying that "free will" means you can up and decide to fly one day. You are still bound by circumstance, you just have the ability to work within those circumstances. Now, in some cases you don't have much chance to do so. That just means you have to push yourself through what you gotta do, and handle it with as much grace as possible, then get back on track when you have the chance. In this case, that would involve doing so from the afterlife. (Yes, the afterlife. If God actually gives a damn about us, there is one. And if he doesn't, or doesn't exist, this is a moot point all around.)


People that do not practice a religion do not understand it completley. Yeah I studied about alot of religions and know alot about them but it doesn't mean I know everything.

That's ridiculous. You assume every person in a religion has the same spiritual thoughts and feelings. They don't. The only thing a relationship with religion teaches you is the knowledge of how that religion affects you.


Good one, nrj! I've always despised the "free will" bullshit theory. All that God has to do is eliminate evil from the world. But some people say that this would be taking away their free will. Well, the law and my self-imposed morals prevent me from doing anything evil, so does that mean that I don't have any free will? No. Stupid theory...

Um... first of all, those really aren't comparable. The law isn't actually stopping you from going out and robbing a bank. Preventing you, sure, but that's just because you don't want to risk getting caught. Free will is all about weighing the consequences of your actions. And morals can be ignored, so you're choosing to go with the moral choice here. Thus choice, thus free will.

Removing evil, on the other hand, involves someone getting directly into our brains and pulling out every sadistic or selfish thought we have, since if we can have those thoughts, we can act on them. Anyone that controls our thoughts controls our actions. And that means we don't have free will.

Of course, I don't actually agree that "free will" is the pure and simple answer here. I think evil exists so that we can be tested, and stand or fall on our own merits. It also gives us a chance to strengthen ourselves through adversity. God damn, I wish the Reveal Thyself thread had actually gone somewhere. We might have some of this resolved by now.


Yes, it IS stupid. The lesson that SHOULD be learned here, but probably won't, is that if Christians can drop old Bible rules like stoning, then they can EASILY drop old Bible rules like "thou shalt not be gay". Pick and choose...

Here here! Unfortunately, some people refuse to realize that Christianity is a growing, evolving thing. They like to think it's been perfect from day one, and thus needs no adjustment. It's a shame that has to be such a stumbling block in the world.

[autryn2]

B.NyeThe Uruk-Hai wrote: "No you don't. " also, referenced: "...she continually sees two black Labrador retrievers and three calico kittens. The animals do not make any noise; they just look at her. The woman knows these animals do not exist...."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REALLY bad reference, dude. The lady sez she KNOWS they don't exist!!! (I'm suprised you got credit). I also know what I have experienced (not just saw, but lived) is REAL. You can state an opinion that you THINK I am either lying or making it up or are delusional but after all yours is just an opinion of an account. I experienced it... and am in an infinately better position to decide that what happened was real .... not you. Not only do you NOT know what happened (because I haven't told anyone on the net), you also don't know ME, so what credentials do you have for verifying the truth that I EXPERIENCED (laughing quietly to self)???!!!???

BTW, Uruk-Hai... I read all the books long before they were made into movies. Course, I never liked the Simarilion(sp?)

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Autryn, I've experienced a lot of strange stuff in my life, things which convinced me there is something more out there. But I don't believe Christianity is correct. Are you sure, in all the things you've seen, that the Christian belief is the only way to explain it all? That there can be no other way?

I don't mean to be rude. But I'd guess you only consider it proof of Christianity because you were looking at it in that light already.

[autryn2]

Philosopher Foelhe wrote:"I don't mean to be rude. But I'd guess you only consider it proof of Christianity because you were looking at it in that light already"
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Foelhe... quite the oposite to both statements. You are not being rude but polite... and I thank you for your courtesy. Answering your other statement may be difficult but I'll try...

The experience occurred at a time when I was not a PRACTICING Christian (believing but not doing) and was not even thinking about God when "IT" occurred.

Without going into detail I'll just say that in my life I have both listened to God SPEAK (to me personally) and have seen in full daylight a real, live demon (separated by a modest 30 years).

From where I'm standing it would be quite difficult to interpret what I have seen and heard in ANY other light.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Without going into detail I'll just say that in my life I have both listened to God SPEAK (to me personally) and have seen in full daylight a real, live demon (separated by a modest 30 years).

... Well, I think that could still be described differently, if you consider the fact that dark spirits aren't proof of Christianity. I'd be interested to know what God said. That might be a clincher.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

REALLY bad reference, dude. The lady sez she KNOWS they don't exist!!!
I KNEW that you were going to say that. This ONE particular lady happens to have enough wits about her to realize that HER hallucinations are not real, but not all people would realize that, especially zealots. Many religious zealots would interpret ANY type of hallucination as a "sign" from God...


Not only do you NOT know what happened (because I haven't told anyone on the net), you also don't know ME, so what credentials do you have for verifying the truth that I EXPERIENCED (laughing quietly to self)???!!!???
MANY, MANY people are fooled by hallucinations ALL the time. These hallucinations are often so real that the person thinks that it IS real...

Oh yeah, I'm still waiting for an answer about my Leviticus question...

Oh, yeah again... Please explain in further detail about your 2 encounters ( ie - when, where, in what context etc. ). I promise that I won't be an asshole about it. As I've mentioned before here on the boards, I am agnostic, meaning that my mind is VERY open to MANY possibilities, including Christianity. Someone like myself will NEVER understand your point of view unless you can completely open up to us...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I KNEW that you were going to say that. This ONE particular lady happens to have enough wits about her to realize that HER hallucinations are not real

*cackles and rubs his hands together* Nye, prepare to hate me.

Are you really sure this is a hallucination? It's possible she's seeing something on the spiritual plane - guardian spirits, perhaps. After all, a hallucination is a serious thing, and it shows that there's something very wrong with the way the mind is working. But by your admission, people suffering from Charles Bonnet syndrome don't really show anything wrong with them.

Now, think about this for a second. What if I was being followed by a ghost, an actual ghost which only I could see, and I went to a psychiatrist and told them about it? Do you think they'd say, "You've got a noncorporal manifestation. Go see a priest." No, they'd assume I was seeing hallucinations, and they'd try to diagnose me. There's nothing wrong with my mental state, no chemical imbalance... but wait! Charles Bonnet syndrome is completely undetectable. So they slap that description on me, and send me on my way.

Now, I'm not saying this is necessarily what's going on, but keep in mind that science and psychiatry doesn't allow for the possibility that there is a spiritual world affecting us. Which means a psychiatric proof isn't necessarily all-encompassing. There are possibilities which are not being called into question.

[nrj]

I know we've had this argument before. Yes, we've had it before. Anyway, I still don't see a good answer to it. You are assuming there is an afterlife when you answer this. That's conjecture. I'm assuming you acn't save yourself if you stand in front of a 13 meter high wave coming straight at you, when you're on a Thai-beach. That's not conjecture.

And christians say that we have the free will of embracing god and all that, and actually have an afterlife worth living... But what if you're a hindu girl, 5 years old, and a 13 meter wave comes straight at you? Are you gonna do a speed run to the tap, and baptise yourself?

[nrj]

I experienced it... and am in an infinately better position to decide that what happened was real .... not you. And the hindus claim they experienced their gods, and the jews their god, and the muslims their god, and the shintoists their god, and the buddhists Buddha and they are:


in an infinately better position to decide that what happened was real .... not you.

... you're point being?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Yes, we've had it before. Anyway, I still don't see an answer to it. You are assuming there is an afterlife when you answer this. That's conjecture. I'm assuming you acn't save yourself if you stand in front of a 13 meter high wave coming straight at you, when you're on a Thai-beach. That's not conjecture.

No, no, it's not conjecture. Not really. It's just the option that really matters given the argument. The way I see it, there are three possibilities as to how the world works.

1) There is no God. The argument is moot.

2) There is a God, but no afterlife. This implies God doesn't give a damn about us, or at least doesn't care enough to save us. So yelling at God because of death and destruction is a waste of time.

3) There is a God, and there is an afterlife. Therefore, death and destruction are not such a big deal - granted, it sucks for our lifetime, but then we go on to another plane, leaving the pain behind us, taking the wisdom gained from this life.

The reason I'm concentrating on the afterlife argument is because it's the one that fits your argument. After all, you believe if God exists, he cares. Otherwise, why would you say that God should save us? That fits argument three. That's what I'm focusing on.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Now, I'm not saying this is necessarily what's going on, but keep in mind that science and psychiatry doesn't allow for the possibility that there is a spiritual world affecting us. Which means a psychiatric proof isn't necessarily all-encompassing. There are possibilities which are not being called into question.
Exactly! Which is why I label myself an agnostic instead of atheist. I just used the above example to show that there are other explanations for certain hallucinations. By NO means do I discount a spiritual explanation. My point is that it is very likely that MOST of these "visions" that people are seeing are simple hallucinations and they mean absolutely nothing. And even if SOME of them are spiritual in nature, then my next question would be WHY does the creator of the entire universe reveal himself in such an ambiguous manner to a mere handful of people. The only thing that he accomplishes by going about things in such an obscure manner is to perpetuate the appearance that he doesn't exist. I mean, how do YOU display your love for those people in your life that you love? Do you hide? Do you pretend that you don't exist and try to avoid them? Of course you don't. You want to spend time with them and interact with them. God has a STRANGE way of showing his affection...


3) There is a God, and there is an afterlife. Therefore, death and destruction are not such a big deal - granted, it sucks for our lifetime, but then we go on to another plane, leaving the pain behind us, taking the wisdom gained from this life.
This whole "wisdom" thing has always bothered me as well. What wisdom does a stillborn baby gain before heading off to the afterlife?

[Defiant Noquisi]

A comment was made that most people who do not cater to christian beliefs had some bad experience in their past. While that is certainly a large piece of evidence in my case, there were also many very strong "outside" examples. For example:

The large number of mothers who murder their children, claiming some communication/belief via "god" compelled them to do so. Virtually every murderer (in relation to this single paragraph) hitting the news has been christian. Sadly, a few reports of women cutting open pregnant womens bellies to steal the unborn child have also included christian beliefs as a motivator for them to commit such a heinous act.

The many people both men and women who murder others stating in some fashion that these victims deserved to die, either by not believing in god or because of some "sin" they commmited. Again, virtually all christian. Ive purposely left out the extremists from other religions because I havent experienced hate from others nor have the stats.

The various "religions" people believe that somehow justifies the murder of people from other religions/beliefs, and sometimes even their own. Muslim/Jewish, Catholic/Protestant, Catholic/Druid, Jim Jones, virtually every christian religion/American Indians.... this list is endless. The political power gained through the abuse of religion should be taught about in schools, instead its just mentioned and not brought up with the significance, relevance and fear it should have.

The claims of concrete belief in biblical teachings yet the perpetually ingrained belief (that is passed on to their children, who grow up and continue it) that persons of different color and/or sexual persuasion are to be hated, chastised, demoralized, demonized and discriminated against. These god "fearing" christians believe it completely acceptable to treat people of color and homosexuals with hate, including something so small as calling them names, spitting on them and escalating the hate up to torture, rape, dismemberment and murder. Ive seen the hate, heard the talk, witnessed some of the violence.

Some of this "hate speak" has become so ingrained in our culture that even people who dont hate people of color, use hate terminology without even recognizing it for what it is and do virtually nothing about it. Anyone remember the saying "Im gonna beat the tar out of <whoever>?" Honestly, did the persons saying it even realize what "tar" implied? This had even become fashionable in pro sports, redskins anyone? I certainly dont see multitudes of christians protesting the term "redskins" for a pro football team name. Yet, many will tell you that using the "n" word, or spic, kike, wop is hateful and un-christian like. Say what?

The guilt trips taught in sermons is neverending. Hypocrisy has taken on a life of its own. Pat Robertson anyone?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I just used the above example to show that there are other explanations for certain hallucinations.

Once more I dance on the edge of trouble, but is it possible there's no such thing as Charles Bonnet syndrome? This is a syndrome used to describe people who see things other people don't see, which has no medical explanation. Unexplained phenomena makes people nervous, especially (in my experience) doctors and scientists who spend most of their lives on the logical edge. It's possible Charles Bonnet syndrome may actually be the medical term for people who do see spirits.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. Lots of religious folks who see God are crazy. And I'm not counting Charles Bonnet out just yet. But it's a possibility.


And even if SOME of them are spiritual in nature, then my next question would be WHY does the creator of the entire universe reveal himself in such an ambiguous manner to a mere handful of people.

Maybe because God has some things he needs to be taken care of, and he decides some humans seem to be ready to handle it. Alternatively, it could be another test. Sort've like an advanced class (with the exception that not all the people in the class have proven they're ready for the course).

Also, I should point out that I at least actively hunt out weird phenomena. So it may not be that God chooses a handful of people, so much as they're the only ones with the will to find it and the good luck to stumble onto the right place at the right time.


The only thing that he accomplishes by going about things in such an obscure manner is to perpetuate the appearance that he doesn't exist. I mean, how do YOU display your love for those people in your life that you love? Do you hide? Do you pretend that you don't exist and try to avoid them?

If they're teenagers, and your children, they damn well wish you would. I could argue that this is the adolescence of mankind - we've passed the period of childhood, where Shaman's were pretty much taken for granted and God was ever-present and inarguable. Now we're in a world where mankind is figuring out what it really wants to be. Possibly God is giving us some space.

Or, in a less farcical twist, you could think about life as a test, and God as the teacher who wants us to do well. Do you do better when the teacher is standing over you, giving you the hairy eyeball? I sure as hell don't.


This whole "wisdom" thing has always bothered me as well. What wisdom does a stillborn baby gain before heading off to the afterlife?

Interconnectedness in all things. Granted, a stillborn doesn't have a chance to figure much out... but the baby's death gives the mother a crisis to deal with, to either fight through the pain or give into it.

As for the stillborn, there are a few possibilities that would leave him/her the chance to grow and learn. Reincarnation is one of them. The soul gets a really short trip this time, then steps out and back into the flow. Maybe s/he learns to appreciate life, with the memories of having the chance snatched away from him/her the last time around. Or maybe it's just a meaningless sidetrip.

Another possibility (one which I wouldn't suggest to the mother of the stillborn, but it does exist) is that there's no soul residing in the stillborn. The child is basically a physical body meant to die to test the parent(s). Consider the fact that 4% of the population is sociopathic, meaning they have no concept of emotion or empathy. This could be a sign of a lack of soul. (Not saying it is, but it could be.) Which means it's possible for a human body to be soulless. Just a thought.

And a third possibility would be that the soul of the stillborn was near-perfect before birth, and God allowed it to make a quick show as a child, then return to the afterlife after the job was done. It didn't learn because it had nothing left to learn.


Virtually every murderer hitting the news has been christian.

I'd love to see some statistics on that. Granted, a lot of people who make the news are Christian, but I do believe the majority of the population of North America and Europe are Christian.

Also, I should point out that people who are psychologically ill have a tendancy, in my experience, to seek out a group they can lose themselves in. Christianity gets the most attention, so it makes sense that it draws the most lunatics. That doesn't really undermine your point, but it's something to take into consideration.

Sorry, really long post, but I think I said everything I wanted to.

[nrj]

2) There is a God, but no afterlife. This implies God doesn't give a damn about us, or at least doesn't care enough to save us. So yelling at God because of death and destruction is a waste of time. We are not debating theism here, Foelhe. We're debating christianity, and christianity claims god does give a damn about us.


3) There is a God, and there is an afterlife. Therefore, death and destruction are not such a big deal - granted, it sucks for our lifetime, but then we go on to another plane, leaving the pain behind us, taking the wisdom gained from this life. And use it to... what excactly? Play the harp better in heaven? How to dress up in a white toga?


The reason I'm concentrating on the afterlife argument is because it's the one that fits your argument. After all, you believe if God exists, he cares. Otherwise, why would you say that God should save us? That fits argument three. That's what I'm focusing on. No, I claim that if the CHRISTIAN god exists, he would save us. Remember, we're debating christianity, not theism in general.

[nrj]

Maybe because God has some things he needs to be taken care of, and he decides some humans seem to be ready to handle it. Alternatively, it could be another test. Doesn't make any sense. God's omnipotent. He could do this without using prophets, simply because he can do anything.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

We are not debating theism here, Foelhe. We're debating christianity, and christianity claims god does give a damn about us.

Oh. *blinks* Why were you accusing me of assuming there's an afterlife, then? According to Christianity, there is.


And use it to... what excactly? Play the harp better in heaven? How to dress up in a white toga?

Good question! It might just give us a case of Job-Well-Done. We've fought our demons, inner and outer, and come out more or less unscathed.

Remember how I mentioned earlier that if you give someone something for free, they'll treat it like trash, but if they have to work for something they'll apreciate it? That's what I mean.


Doesn't make any sense. God's omnipotent. He could do this without using prophets, simply because he can do anything.

Well, yeah, he could. And just about every parent living in modern society (as we know it) can wash the dishes. But many still make the kids do it.

I'm not saying God can't handle these things. I'm saying God lets us handle them, to let us grow.

[nrj]

Oh. *blinks* Why were you accusing me of assuming there's an afterlife, then? According to Christianity, there is. Ok, my bad. Just thought we should make it clear, cause it seamed like we wandered off a little bit from the topic.




Good question! It might just give us a case of Job-Well-Done. We've fought our demons, inner and outer, and come out more or less unscathed.

Remember how I mentioned earlier that if you give someone something for free, they'll treat it like trash, but if they have to work for something they'll apreciate it? That's what I mean. And how long time do we have to work before he consider us "worthy"? Babies die as we speak, and millions of them did not even have the chance to become christian (I'm talking about the kids in India and the developing countries, now... just so you catch my tune) and still, many old hindus, buddhists and atheists die without converting... That doesn't make any sense.




Well, yeah, he could. And just about every parent living in modern society (as we know it) can wash the dishes. But many still make the kids do it.

I'm not saying God can't handle these things. I'm saying God lets us handle them, to let us grow. But still, this way of messaging us has MANY backdraws. For example, we don't trust the man on the street when he claim he saw god. Another thing, is that the man on the street who actually get followers, will create an organisation, who will use the word of god to their advantage. I'm sure our creator could comprehend this (I do, and I'm just a 16 year old swedish student). Don't you agree?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Ok, my bad. Just thought we should make it clear, cause it seamed like we wandered off a little bit from the topic.

I was actually just jazzing on the fact that I managed to drag a serious discussion on the the nature of God out of this thread. I WIN AT LIFE! :D


And how long time do we have to work before he consider us "worthy"? Babies die as we speak, and millions of them did not even have the chance to become christian (I'm talking about the kids in India and the developing countries, now... just so you catch my tune) and still, many old hindus, buddhists and atheists die without converting... That doesn't make any sense.

It's not so much that we need to be "worthy". We just need to appreciate it. Every person deserves the basic necessities to live, but if we just hand over those necessities, they aren't appreciated.

And I don't agree with Christians who believe in Hell. I know a lot of Christians who are aware that nonbelievers aren't going to burn in Hell, that this is mostly just incredibly fickle translating and it's not a tenet of the Bible. Those people are the ones I defend Christianity for. Yeah, anyone who gives the okay for eternal suffering is a heartless bastard in my book.


But still, this way of messaging us has MANY backdraws. For example, we don't trust the man on the street when he claim he saw god.

It's a matter of free will and chance, really. The man on the street will probably be ignored by most people, yes. But if you choose to listen to what he says with an open mind, you may actually learn a few things. I don't suggest you blindly believe everything people say about God, but if you keep your eyes open and are willing to make some sacrifices, you have a chance to find some things out. (Yes, a chance. Nothing in life is certain.)

That means most people won't get a definite answer in their lifetime. But I don't really see that as a problem.


Another thing, is that the man on the street who actually get followers, will create an organisation, who will use the word of god to their advantage.

True. The problem with any sort of power is the nature of free will. It's not really God's nature to hand the right people the right power, so we have to hunt it out ourselves. Even if the right person stumbles onto the truth, they have to decide whether to share that truth with anyone. If they do, they have to use their imperfect judgement to decide who should hear it. A lot of people are selfish, and sometimes it's hard to tell what someone's motives are, so it's only a matter of time before the power ends up in the hands of someone who really shouldn't be allowed to have it.

... So, given that, I'd actually argue with a part of your argument. The man on the street doesn't always use things to his advantage. Jesus, for example. Jesus did what he thought was right and got nailed to a cross for his troubles.

But yeah, odds are somebody in power ends up using things for darker means. It's a problem, but there isn't much we can do about it. It's either risk passing the truth on to someone dangerous, or take it to our graves.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Once more I dance on the edge of trouble, but is it possible there's no such thing as Charles Bonnet syndrome? This is a syndrome used to describe people who see things other people don't see, which has no medical explanation. Unexplained phenomena makes people nervous, especially (in my experience) doctors and scientists who spend most of their lives on the logical edge. It's possible Charles Bonnet syndrome may actually be the medical term for people who do see spirits.
In this particular case, I would tend to believe that there IS a Charles Bonnet Syndrome because the types of hallucinations tend to happen only to people who have recently experienced sudden and debilitating vision loss in both eyes. They don't appear to happen in people who have functional vision. The article attributes the cause to sensory deprivation and likens it to the "phantom limb" phenomenon whereby people who have lost a limb can still sometimes feel sensations where their limb used to be such as itching, pins and needles and other feelings. The full article can be found here (http://www.revoptom.com//index.asp?page=2_1548.htm) if you want to read more about it. Pretty interesting stuff...

[bluenose_ian]

[QUOTE=Philosopher Foelhe]Bloody hell! Of all the times for the internet to go down for twelve hours! *kicks the network... gently*




You make a good point. Let me try another tack.

It annoys you that Christians believe the world will end, but they also believe that the end result is the world becoming a paradise, and everyone's lives becoming perfect. So, why does this bother you, exactly? Granted, I'm rather fond of Earth myself, but I think for an actually sustainable utopia, I'd be amenable for something else.

[QUOTE=Philosopher Foelhe]



.................................................. .................................................. ............

Let me try another...I like the idea of paradise on earth but at whos expense...
Thats if god exists and the prophecy comes true....
Probally more than half the worlds population wont be able to enjoy this because they dont believe or have sinned.

Is this system really fair..who goes to hell...who enjoys paradise...
What if u have killed someone on accident like knocking a pedestrian over with a car...you have killed someone but not murdered them..all non christians wont b able to enjoy it like myself even tho i do believe in some kind of mysterious force like a afterlife..and i have no problemm going to church for weddings and funerals and stuff but that doesnt mean i have to devote my life to christanity and make it the most important thing in my life...


I guess all im saying is that it might send the wrong message..it dont affect some people but in the bigger picture its saying we dont want your kind on this planet and that causes wars that have cursed this planet for centuries between the cross and the star and plenty of history to show for it.

Are we set up for a eternal battle with different religions fighting for something that might not happen.

I hope its worth it..

[Keeblergiant]

Once more I dance on the edge of trouble, but is it possible there's no such thing as Charles Bonnet syndrome? This is a syndrome used to describe people who see things other people don't see, which has no medical explanation. Unexplained phenomena makes people nervous, especially (in my experience) doctors and scientists who spend most of their lives on the logical edge. It's possible Charles Bonnet syndrome may actually be the medical term for people who do see spirits.

There is such a thing as Charles Bonnet syndrome. It is a result of sensory deprivation when some people suffer rapid visual impairment. It's like getting tossed in a sensory deprivation tank...you start to see things.

[Beatnik Bob]

You really think that would matter? Don't be absurd.Actually I really do think that would matter. The Mishna teaches things like: If you kill ONE humans it's as if you have destoyed a world (think of it like this, what if someone killed Adam). In addition, i will not say that Jews have never murdered. But they have never completely anhialated hundreds of cultures.


The reason some Christians are such bastards is that Christianity has the majority vote at the moment. If Judaism was in the same position, I'm sure you guys would be just as war-mongering and arrogant as some Christians are now. Well, we did have the majority vote at one time, well at leaste in Egypt. Ever heard of Joseph? And out of Egypt, king Solomon.

Basically, anybody has the ability to possess the majority vote. How do you think Christians got the majority vote in the first place? Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire. And also, Jews have the majority vote in Israel, and its not like the leaders sit around all day and condemn The Davinci Code.

EDIT: And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my religion is better than any other religion, but I have to respond when someone says an invalid accusations about my religion.

I hate these quote boxes.......

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I would tend to believe that there IS a Charles Bonnet Syndrome because the types of hallucinations tend to happen only to people who have recently experienced sudden and debilitating vision loss in both eyes.

Ah, I missed that. Nevermind, then.


Is this system really fair..who goes to hell...who enjoys paradise...

Again, I don't actually believe in hell. That's sort've a deal-breaker for me.


Actually I really do think that would matter. The Mishna teaches things like: If you kill ONE humans it's as if you have destoyed a world (think of it like this, what if someone killed Adam).

... Well, I think we can all agree murder is a bad thing. Christians think so too, but that hasn't stopped twisted people from doing it in the name of Christianity.


In addition, i will not say that Jews have never murdered. But they have never completely anhialated hundreds of cultures.

It's a matter of entropy. When a group is in charge and in the spotlight, the ethics and beliefs of that group are exposed and weathered, and most slowly break down. Keep in mind that Christianity had been in charge for hundreds of years before the Crusades, to the point where it had become a political machine. No one benefits when a political machine is let loose.

Maybe Judaism would be able to stand against the ravages of time and politics, but I doubt it. We're all human.


Well, we did have the majority vote at one time, well at leaste in Egypt. Ever heard of Joseph? And out of Egypt, king Solomon.

True, but unless you can find some statistics on crime from that period, there's still a question of whether that's an improvement.


And also, Jews have the majority vote in Israel, and its not like the leaders sit around all day and condemn The Davinci Code.

Considering how much terrorist activity Israel has to deal with, I'd be really surprised if any of their leaders had the time to speak out about The DaVinci Code. It's an entirely different political environment, and therefore it's hard to make any comparisions.

[Beatnik Bob]

... Well, I think we can all agree murder is a bad thing. Christians think so too, but that hasn't stopped twisted people from doing it in the name of Christianity.
Yes, but there are extreme Jews, Jews that insist on not even entering a synagague, because they have a deseased testicle or something. (which reminds me, thats symbolism). They'd probably beat themselves to death if they murderd someone, and your right, I guess this doesn't stop everyone. I'm sure everyone can look back in history and know that many people lose all reason and go out of controle in some berserk fashion, even if theres no legitimate excuse.

But what I'm trying to say, is that Christians don't exactly act like they were saved from Jesus dying on the cross. If I had to choose between who was the most gory, between Christians and Jews, I'd choose Christians. Sorry to any Christians on this forum.


It's a matter of entropy. When a group is in charge and in the spotlight, the ethics and beliefs of that group are exposed and weathered, and most slowly break down. Keep in mind that Christianity had been in charge for hundreds of years before the Crusades, to the point where it had become a political machine. No one benefits when a political machine is let loose. Would you agree with me that there are more Christians than Muslims on the planet? So Muslims are deffinately not in the "spot light." So by your standerds, they shouldn't be having a terrorist personality.

And also, I'd say that the school system is, 100% teachers of evolution. So really, this country doesn't really teach the Christian dogma, gut the belief that were from apes. So isn't Evolution in the spot light for the school system?


True, but unless you can find some statistics on crime from that period, there's still a question of whether that's an improvement. Ok, you got me there......... :2thumbs:




Considering how much terrorist activity Israel has to deal with, I'd be really surprised if any of their leaders had the time to speak out about The DaVinci Code. It's an entirely different political environment, and therefore it's hard to make any comparisions. Well, not nessesarily......If Jews truly hated the DaVinci code, with all our essence, then I'd say that we'd go absolute berserk when it came out, no matter what situation.......but we didn't.

[nrj]

It's not so much that we need to be "worthy". We just need to appreciate it. Every person deserves the basic necessities to live, but if we just hand over those necessities, they aren't appreciated. Well, I appriciate life, and a devoted christian who was my buddy since childhood did to... But he still died at a very young age. And a muslim guy at my gymnasium does not (you should see his mediproduction grades, and how he treats people around him...), but he survives. I meen, if there actually was a god such as the one christianity talks about, shouldn't my buddy live and at least learn a little more about life?

And is there some sort of time limit you get before god says "Ok, he doesn't get it. Let's just kill him."? That's the impression I get, but still, that doesn't add up to.


And I don't agree with Christians who believe in Hell. I know a lot of Christians who are aware that nonbelievers aren't going to burn in Hell, that this is mostly just incredibly fickle translating and it's not a tenet of the Bible. Those people are the ones I defend Christianity for. Yeah, anyone who gives the okay for eternal suffering is a heartless bastard in my book. Ok, Foelhe, I don't want to be rude at all, but you are aware about the TONS off texts (both in old and new testament) were god punishes people who doesn't "behave" or believe in him? Even though he doesn't send them to hell in the Bible, he throws fire at them and stuff like that if they aren't okay in his opinion.




It's a matter of free will and chance, really. The man on the street will probably be ignored by most people, yes. But if you choose to listen to what he says with an open mind, you may actually learn a few things. I don't suggest you blindly believe everything people say about God, but if you keep your eyes open and are willing to make some sacrifices, you have a chance to find some things out. (Yes, a chance. Nothing in life is certain.) But what if he would stop the favorisation and tell ALL of us that he exists, we're his children etc. and be done with it? What, he doesn't love us, but only a few prophets? It just doesn't make any sense. Even though we learn that we have to do something ourselves, well, he kinda should comprehend that we're not up to the task. (We're not, trust me. We interprent things different ways)


That means most people won't get a definite answer in their lifetime. But I don't really see that as a problem. Well, I do. He only tells a few people, and let the rest of us live in ignorance... What's the point of that?


Jesus, for example. Jesus did what he thought was right and got nailed to a cross for his troubles. But he got himself a gathering of people, and was forver recorded in history. (assuming he did exist)

So that argument is kinda flawed. He did gain from it, and is remembered as the "son of god".


It's either risk passing the truth on to someone dangerous, or take it to our graves. Or tell everyone on the planet.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

But what I'm trying to say, is that Christians don't exactly act like they were saved from Jesus dying on the cross. If I had to choose between who was the most gory, between Christians and Jews, I'd choose Christians. Sorry to any Christians on this forum.

Right, but society treats Christianity differently than it does Judaism. Which is my point. If Judaism and Christianity switched places, so that Judaism was the majority religion with the political power, I suspect there would be plenty of crazy, hypocritical Jews out there. S'all I'm saying.


Would you agree with me that there are more Christians than Muslims on the planet? So Muslims are deffinately not in the "spot light." So by your standerds, they shouldn't be having a terrorist personality.

Muslims do have the spotlight, it's just more centered in a certain area. Keep in mind that in the Middle East, Muslims have even more control than Christians do in the U.S. Which, in my opinion, is why you hear about so much terrorist activity coming from that area.

Also keep in mind that the stereotypical Christian in the U.S. is a lot different than the stereotypical Christian in China, where Christianity is frowned upon. You can't really focus on the whole world at the same time, you have to break things up into areas of thought and belief.


And also, I'd say that the school system is, 100% teachers of evolution. So really, this country doesn't really teach the Christian dogma, gut the belief that were from apes. So isn't Evolution in the spot light for the school system?

In the school system, yes. Of course, how much power does the average teacher have? They have power on a personal level, with individual students (which is entirely different from national power), but not so much in politics or organizations. And I think that's where the problem comes from.


Well, not nessesarily......If Jews truly hated the DaVinci code, with all our essence, then I'd say that we'd go absolute berserk when it came out, no matter what situation.......but we didn't.

Again, the way society is set up, Judaists don't have quite as much power. They may not feel entitled to slap down a book they don't agree with.

But really, why this book? If anything, it sounds like you guys would be thrilled to have a book which brings Jesus' divinity into question. If there's a bestselling novel out there, which questions your beliefs, and it hasn't called down the fire from Jewish organizations, I'd like to know about it.


Well, I appriciate life, and a devoted christian who was my buddy since childhood did to... But he still died at a very young age. And a muslim guy at my gymnasium does not (you should see his mediproduction grades, and how he treats people around him...), but he survives. I meen, if there actually was a god such as the one christianity talks about, shouldn't my buddy live and at least learn a little more about life?

Why? It sounds like your gymnastic buddy has more to learn about life than your friend did. Shouldn't he have a chance to learn it?


And is there some sort of time limit you get before god says "Ok, he doesn't get it. Let's just kill him."? That's the impression I get, but still, that doesn't add up to.

Here's where free will enters the equation. If God was to personally protect every person until they "got" the truth, it would sort've disrupt the flow of free will. After all, the guy isn't allowed to try dangerous things, and other people aren't allowed to attack him. Or God just ignores the consequences of his actions. Let's face it, that's not something God does often.


Ok, Foelhe, I don't want to be rude at all, but you are aware about the TONS off texts (both in old and new testament) were god punishes people who doesn't "behave" or believe in him? Even though he doesn't send them to hell in the Bible, he throws fire at them and stuff like that if they aren't okay in his opinion.

There's still a major difference between death and Hell. Death is (by theory of Christianity) not permanent. Hell is eternal suffering.


But what if he would stop the favorisation and tell ALL of us that he exists, we're his children etc. and be done with it? What, he doesn't love us, but only a few prophets? It just doesn't make any sense. Even though we learn that we have to do something ourselves, well, he kinda should comprehend that we're not up to the task.

I mentioned to Nye earlier that I actually sought out God, sought out the supernatural and surreal. I'm nobody special, but I found some clues. I think you could too, if you were willing to look.

As for us not being up to the task - even in failure, we learn. It's a slow process, yeah, but we can make steps toward something. Besides, what's the other option? We never try anything we aren't guaranteed to succeed at? Sounds like a pretty horrible life to me.


Well, I do. He only tells a few people, and let the rest of us live in ignorance... What's the point of that?

The reason I don't see a problem with it is that, if we were all so desperate to figure out if God was real, we'd be acting a lot differently. Take Nye, for example. He obviously prides himself on being a rational, logical man. Would it improve his life to know for sure there is a God out there? I don't think so. And the point is that Nye has built a life and identity for himself based not on God and blind faith, but the proof of his senses. That's a life he built, which in my opinion is better than having faith handed to him on a silver platter.


So that argument is kinda flawed. He did gain from it, and is remembered as the "son of god".

Yeah, he's the leader of a bunch of people who are mostly known for forsaking his teachings for power and self-righteousness. And I should point out that the man was nailed to a cross. That's not anyone's idea of fun.

Also, the only reason I can even use him as an example is because he's remembered. How many brave souls gave up everything for what they believed in, and were forgotten by the history books? I'd guess quite a few.


Or tell everyone on the planet.

Everyone on the planet. Otherwise known as, "someone dangerous". EVERYONE dangerous.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

I mentioned to Nye earlier that I actually sought out God, sought out the supernatural and surreal. I'm nobody special, but I found some clues. I think you could too, if you were willing to look.
How exactly did you go about "seeking" the supernatural, Foelhe? I'm not being a dick here, I'm legitimately interested and I have a VERY open mind. And what clues did you find along the way?


Take Nye, for example. He obviously prides himself on being a rational, logical man. Would it improve his life to know for sure there is a God out there? I don't think so.
That's a good question. I think that the only thing that I would change about my life would be going to church occasionally and I wouldn't be intimidated by death knowing that there IS definitely something beyond our physical existence. Currently, I SUSPECT that there MAY be something beyond our physical existence, but I'm far from being absolutely sure of it...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

How exactly did you go about "seeking" the supernatural, Foelhe? I'm not being a dick here, I'm legitimately interested and I have a VERY open mind. And what clues did you find along the way?

... I don't know if I can discuss the clues themselves, for various reasons (which I'll go into if you like, but it's complicated). But I don't mind discussing how I got started.

For the most part, I pretty much just decided to do the stuff a parapsychologist might do. Visit graveyards at midnight, sneak into haunted houses, visit people who claimed they could do magic (not just like Wiccan rites or rituals, I mean levitation, conjuration, full on to Oz stuff here). Some of it was crap, some of it... well, I wasn't sure. Sometimes my instincts would just start screaming at me that something was very wrong. Sometimes I'd see things that didn't really make sense, but I couldn't call it proof positive of any outside interference - it could've just been a trick of the light, or something. Y'know, the same stuff that always comes up when you talk about the supernatural.

I think if you want to go to Shangri-La, there has to be a point where someone opens the door for you. That's part of what I was talking about earlier - I don't think God steps into the picture for every person who sees the "truth". A lot of the time, it's one person teaching the next how to look at things. Everybody gets the occasional chill down their spine, but in my experience, to really be intimately familiar with what you're dealing with, somebody needs to shove you into it.

That point, for me, was just another routine visit to a guy who claimed he could do weird stuff. I actually figured he was full of shit - as a matter of fact, I had a bunch of people with me, fellow skeptics and cynics who were basically going to make fun of the guy when he screwed up. It was weird, though, 'cause he didn't make a big deal of it. He made some small talk, then basically asked us if we were ready to deal with the consequences of seeing the spirit world. Everybody said yes. I actually meant it, and I guess he could tell. Again, it was strange. Most of the people I'd dealt with had a lot of ritual and focus, but all this guy did was put his hand next to my temple and snap his fingers. Then he kicked us out. That was it.

About a week later, I started seeing things. I actually went back to a few places I'd been to before, ones that'd given me a strange vibe. And I saw things that... well, fit. Fit my emotions at the time, fit the stories I'd heard... it fit. And since then, I've talked with other people who can also see these things, and our stories match. So, I've been honing what talent I have, to try to deal with things as they need to be dealt with.

*chuckles* Goddamn, but I ramble when I'm nostalgic. Sorry, this is probably longer than this post deserves, but I think it answers your question. Feel free to ask if I didn't make anything clear.

[Defiant Noquisi]

I think if you want to go to Shangri-La, there has to be a point where someone opens the door for you......Everybody gets the occasional chill down their spine, but in my experience, to really be intimately familiar with what you're dealing with, somebody needs to shove you into it. True, most likely someone else will open the door but you must still choose to walk through that door as it looks like you did. The only shove you may get is in the direction of the door, the rest is still up to you to move forward or not.

I was raised in a christian household and throughout all the catechism, numerous bible study sessions (christian scientist, lutheran, baptist, quaker and catholic), etc. I still questioned the things I was supposed to just accept. The teachings contradicted themselves yet I was just supposed to trust it as gospel truth and I couldnt. I walked away from it all and never looked back. Years later, some events in my life lead me to that door and it was an atheist who not only pointed out the "door" (he saw it first) but witnessed what occured. After he witnessed my own experience it lead him to question his own non-belief since he couldnt ignore what he saw happen to me. Kind of hard to ignore when its occuring right in front of you in broad daylight and out in public. He watched me "walk" through the door.

In thinking about it afterward, what was most interesting to me was that my experience was uniquely an Indian experience, yet it was a non-Native non-believer that not only pointed the door out but was able to watch my profound "do it or not" moment.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

*chuckles* Goddamn, but I ramble when I'm nostalgic. Sorry, this is probably longer than this post deserves, but I think it answers your question. Feel free to ask if I didn't make anything clear.
Thank you, Foelhe! I really appreciate you relaying your experiences. I know that some people are reluctant to talk about stuff like this because it's personal and they don't want people to think that they are crazy. I'm fascinated by things like this, and it's even more fascinating when you hear about a personal experience from someone. I personally believe that there is something else out there that we don't normally see. The only real personal experience that I've had is several EXTREMELY VIVID episodes of deja vu that I'll get maybe once every year - and this has been happening since I was a teenager. The episodes are SO vivid that I'm actually able to accurately predict what is going to happen next in whatever situation that I'm experiencing the deja vu in. So SOMETHING else is going on around us...

I live in the Niagara Region in Southern Ontario, Canada, and there is a small, quaint town called Niagara-on-the-Lake which has a fort called Fort George which was built sometime around the early 1800's I believe. There were many battles fought in that area and, more often than not, many of the dead soldiers were simply buried right where they died on the field of battle. Over the following years, Niagara-on-the-Lake was subsequently built right on top of these mass graves. Nowadays, this small town is generally considered to be the most haunted town in Canada. There is a legitimate ghost tour that is conducted throughout the summer whereby people are taken through Fort George and other surrounding buildings and houses. During the tour, the guide simply talks about the history of the area and ghost sightings usually happen at some point during the tour. Last summer, they had a ghost-sighting rate of over 90%. This past summer, it dropped down to about 65%. The most common sighting cited by the tourists is seeing an 8-year old girl in a white dress who likes to watch the tour groups from a distance. My receiptionist went on the tour last summer and she swears that she saw the little girl sitting at the top of a stairway. Another common sighting occurs in a small and narrow underground tunnel where an invisible ghost is known to whisper in peoples' ears and actually physically shove some of them out of anger. I have not been on the tour myself, but I've just recently convinced my wife and my friends to go with me next summer, and I'm really looking forward to something REAL happening.


About a week later, I started seeing things. I actually went back to a few places I'd been to before, ones that'd given me a strange vibe. And I saw things that... well, fit.
Can you be more specific with what exactly you saw? And did any of your friends have similar experiences after you visited that guy? I understand if you consider this personal and don't wish to talk about it any further...


Years later, some events in my life lead me to that door and it was an atheist who not only pointed out the "door" (he saw it first) but witnessed what occured. After he witnessed my own experience it lead him to question his own non-belief since he couldnt ignore what he saw happen to me. Kind of hard to ignore when its occuring right in front of you in broad daylight and out in public. He watched me "walk" through the door.
Thanks to you as well, DN, for revealing your experience! Can you be more specific with regards to what happened to you? Same as with Foelhe, I will understand if you don't wish to to discuss it any further...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

True, most likely someone else will open the door but you must still choose to walk through that door as it looks like you did. The only shove you may get is in the direction of the door, the rest is still up to you to move forward or not.

Very true, and thanks for correcting me there.


In thinking about it afterward, what was most interesting to me was that my experience was uniquely an Indian experience, yet it was a non-Native non-believer that not only pointed the door out but was able to watch my profound "do it or not" moment.

It seems like everyone who gets involved in this stuff has a completely different take on it. It's funny, we seem to be up to our necks in the spiritual realm, and yet we still don't know much about the true nature of God.


Can you be more specific with what exactly you saw? And did any of your friends have similar experiences after you visited that guy? I understand if you consider this personal and don't wish to talk about it any further...

Well, none of the people who went with me actually went through that little ritual. Mostly because they were being snarky about it the whole time, so the guy just ignored them (also, these were the kinds of atheists who could have God himself drop from the sky, and they'd just roll their eyes and talk about the crappy special effects). I met some people afterwards who've seen the same things I have, if that helps.

As for some of the things I've seen... well, some of it is personal, and some of it is dull, but I think there are a few things I could talk about, no problem.

There's a hiking trail not far from where I live, which I like to go to from time to time when I want to clear my thoughts for awhile, but I don't want to set up and prepare for a longer trip. About halfway in, there's a cliff, about twenty-five, maybe thirty feet up, and if you step back far enough and look up, there's a huge tree with a nest of roots sitting near the edge. At the beginning of the trail, I always made the decision to climb up the cliff and eat lunch at the top. Then when the moment came, I never did. I'd look up at the area for awhile (once I even ate lunch at the bottom) but it never occured to me to climb up while I was actually there. So I'd end up kicking myself at the end of the trail, and then I'd go home.

Well. About two months after I started seeing things, I went back to that trail for a quick escape from my life. When I got to that cliff area, I stopped and looked up, like I always do. But this time I saw this huge, serpentine thing wrapped around the tree, sleeping. I took a step forward, thinking I'd climb up and get a closer look, and the thing suddenly snapped awake and gave me this hard look. Not angry, exactly, but annoyed, like he knew I was planning to come up and didn't like it one bit. So I backed off and kept walking. I haven't been back since.

Not one of my better stories, I'll admit. Hell, I'll try to share more later.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

When I got to that cliff area, I stopped and looked up, like I always do. But this time I saw this huge, serpentine thing wrapped around the tree, sleeping. I took a step forward, thinking I'd climb up and get a closer look, and the thing suddenly snapped awake and gave me this hard look. Not angry, exactly, but annoyed, like he knew I was planning to come up and didn't like it one bit. So I backed off and kept walking. I haven't been back since.
Wow! That's amazing! I don't know how I would react to that sort of experience. So the serpent appeared solid and alive and not like some vague apparition? Do you suspect that your hesitation to climb up there previously had something to do with you somehow "sensing" that the serpent was there even though you couldn't actually see it at the time? Have you researched at all to see if you could identify what the serpent was or what it represented? Do you plan to eventually go back there? Did you ever go back to that guy who "enabled" you to see these things to see if he could explain your experience? I need to know more! Please continue, Foelhe...

[Beatnik Bob]

Currently, I SUSPECT that there MAY be something beyond our physical existence, but I'm far from being absolutely sure of it..Actually, have you ever heard of quantum physics?

[Sammy56]

First I must say to Philosopher that what you said was really interesting and if you post about anymore of your experiences, they would be greatly appreciated.


Originally Posted by B.NyeTheUruk-Hai
The only real personal experience that I've had is several EXTREMELY VIVID episodes of deja vu that I'll get maybe once every year - and this has been happening since I was a teenager.
I've had something very similar happen Nye. For about the past four years, usually about once a month, I will get deja vu and often it is vivid enough for me to "see" what is coming up next. The last time it happened was about two weeks ago. I was working in a group for an english project and all of a sudden I got the feeling that I had been there and experienced this situation before. The picture of what was going to happen in the next few minutes went through my mind. It was of my entire group getting into a nasty argument about a minor detail in the project. I tried to keep it from happening, but the fight occurred just as I had "seen" it. I was really shaken up when I left class and my teacher just thought it was from the argument.

The only other weird thing I commonly have happen to me is I always get a feeling, which I really cannot find words to describe, when something unpleasant is about to happen. It ranges from something that is disappointing, like when I knew 10 minutes before she called that an old friend wasn't going to be able to make it to a party, to the extremely painful, like right before I tripped and broke my ankle for the second time. The only specific I get out of it is that something bad is about to happen, not its degree or what exactly it is, so I've never been able to stop any of it from happening.

I swear sometimes I think I am crazy, but it really makes me wonder if there is more out there then we think.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I don't know how I would react to that sort of experience.

Well, this wasn't the first time I'd seen spirits, so it wasn't as mind-blowing as it could've been.


So the serpent appeared solid and alive and not like some vague apparition?

For the most part. It was... how can I explain this? Some cartoonists use a particular technique to make their characters pop out from the scenery, where they draw a background, then draw the characters and props on a clear piece of paper, then put them together. So the scene is sort've flat, but not at all. It was a bit like that, only in three dimensions. Otherwise, it was as clear as the computer I'm writing on.


Do you suspect that your hesitation to climb up there previously had something to do with you somehow "sensing" that the serpent was there even though you couldn't actually see it at the time?

I think that's a possibility. My best guess is that the creature was sending out some sort of vibe to keep people away, although I can't really say for certain.


Have you researched at all to see if you could identify what the serpent was or what it represented?

... Actually, no. I should probably do that. By which I mean that I can't believe I didn't think of it.


Do you plan to eventually go back there?

I'm honestly not sure. On the one hand, it feels a little like trespassing, and I want to leave the spirit in peace. On the other, there's been some concern as to what would happen if someone did decide to start poking around with it. There was a hiker in that area a while ago, who fell off the cliff she was climbing and broke her neck. I'm hoping that's a coincidence, but if it's not somebody is really gonna have to figure out how to keep people from risking their lives around there.


Did you ever go back to that guy who "enabled" you to see these things to see if he could explain your experience?

Actually, yes, that guy is now a part of the group I work with when dealing with the supernatural. In this case he couldn't tell me much (he's got a bad case of gout, so a long hike was pretty much out of the question), but he did say it reacted to me like some sort of guardian spirit. As to what it's guarding, no idea.


I need to know more!

Heh, well, to be honest, I'm not exactly an expert on most of this stuff. I've only really been in it for a year and a half... or maybe two years now? It's coming up soon, anyway. But most of that time I spent floundering around, wondering what was going on. Still, I'll be happy to answer what I can.

[DontBeAfraid]

cherisa..... christians never give answers about this "god" as clearly or honestly as foele is trying to. Now Im agnostic so put me in the wrong box just yet. As the first post in this thread accurately portrays, christians use FEAR not honesty to get your vote.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Foelhe, I thought of another question after thinking about what I would do if I had experienced what YOU experienced. Would you consider bringing a friend with you to the cliff? That way, if you could see the serpent still there, you could see if your friend could also see it. And something that could be potentially dangerous would be to throw stones at it and see if they bounce off the serpent. But get ready to run if you do that!


I find it absolutly hilarious that you guys are so gullible to beleive in GHOST STORIES and vague apparitions in a tree
Aaaahhhh, NOW you understand how we look at YOUR beliefs...


This has made my day!!!!! No spewing vile hatred toward those telling the story, looks like you all are CLOSED MINDED AFTER ALL!!!!(ONLY WHEN IT COMES TO GOD) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You find it EASY to believe in the supernatural eh?
There's a BIG difference between what we're discussing here and what YOU would be discussing if this had happened to YOU, Cherisa. WE are talking in generalities and exploring open-ended possibilities in order to come up with a possible explanation. We're throwing ideas at eachother and keeping our minds OPEN as to what this could mean. YOU would be talking about how the serpent was DEFINITELY the serpent from the Garden of Eden because your closed mind only thinks of things in terms of God, God, God, God...


Fohle??? could'nt it have been a regular snake???? sitting up in the tree. A snake you havent ever seen....
To see a snake THAT high up in a tree up on the edge of a cliff would require the snake to be a size similar to that of a python or an anaconda which are NOT found in North America. See how a scientific mind works, Cherisa? Logic... its FAN-tastic!


Byne ,why don't you want to know more about GOD?
While the possibility of God is out there, in my opinion, he is FAR from being THE answer to everything. I prefer to keep my mind open, unlike yourself, and continue the search for the TRUTH. You think that I don't consider God to be possible, Cherisa. You are wrong. God IS a possibility in my book. It's your RELIGION that I find laughable. And that's what makes Foelhe a more reasonable and intelligent person than YOU. He takes his personal experiences and looks at ALL of the possibilities in order to explain them. YOU, however, simply settle for the quick-fix because your mind cannot think in abstract ways and you are terrified at the possibility that God may not exist. WE don't CARE whether God exists or not, we simply want to know the TRUTH. That's it!

[Beatnik Bob]

Muslims do have the spotlight, it's just more centered in a certain area. Keep in mind that in the Middle East, Muslims have even more control than Christians do in the U.S. Which, in my opinion, is why you hear about so much terrorist activity coming from that area. So, don't Jews have power centered in a certain area? That area being Israel. And also, you hear alot about the Jews having to fight the Muslims off there doorsteps. And recently, that thing about the gaza strip.


Also keep in mind that the stereotypical Christian in the U.S. is a lot different than the stereotypical Christian in China, where Christianity is frowned upon. You can't really focus on the whole world at the same time, you have to break things up into areas of thought and belief. So, if Christianity in different countries verries, then doesn't Christianity's power, from being a mojority religion, also change?


In the school system, yes. Of course, how much power does the average teacher have? They have power on a personal level, with individual students (which is entirely different from national power), but not so much in politics or organizations. And I think that's where the problem comes from. But the majority of Americans go to school, and arent nations made up of individuals?


But really, why this book? If anything, it sounds like you guys would be thrilled to have a book which brings Jesus' divinity into question. If there's a bestselling novel out there, which questions your beliefs, and it hasn't called down the fire from Jewish organizations, I'd like to know about it. Actually, we are thrilled by The DaVinci Code, I just needed an example of a book.

And here's a bestselling novel that's sort've called down "hell fire": The New Testament.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I find it absolutly hilarious that you guys are so gullible to beleive in GHOST STORIES and vague apparitions in a tree, BUT FLAT OUT REFUSE to believe in GOD.

Uh, excuse me. When exactly did I say that I didn't believe in God? Come to think of it, both Sammy and Bill have said pretty clearly that they think it's possible God exists.

Or are you talking about the Christian God, here? Funny, I never refused to believe in him, either. Granted, I don't believe he exists, but that's my take on things.


Fohle??? could'nt it have been a regular snake???? sitting up in the tree. A snake you havent ever seen.... Maybe it was the devil coming for your soul. hahaha

No, I'm fairly certain it wasn't a regular snake. You don't think that would've been my first thought after that happened? "Gee, better call the zoo and see if they've lost something from the reptile area." The funny thing about being logical is you actually consider these things. This wasn't a snake. I am dead certain of that.

Also keep in mind that this isn't the first or last time I've seen spirits. I can recognize when something is otherworldly (so to speak), it's generally pretty clear what is or isn't.

And I seriously doubt it was after souls, since if it was, it might've, y'know, attacked me. Just a thought.


Byne ,why don't you want to know more about GOD?

The problem with talking about the Christian god, Cherisa, is that most people who discuss it talk about their beliefs first, and the evidence never. Whereas I'm talking about things I've seen, but I'm not saying what they mean or why they exist, because I don't pretend to know.

By the way, you mentioned earlier that you were planning to leave and visit with fellow believers. I can see that it's done you a world of hurt.


Foelhe, I thought of another question after thinking about what I would do if I had experienced what YOU experienced. Would you consider bringing a friend with you to the cliff? That way, if you could see the serpent still there, you could see if your friend could also see it. And something that could be potentially dangerous would be to throw stones at it and see if they bounce off the serpent. But get ready to run if you do that!

It would depend on the friend in question. I trust some people enough to take them out there, but I'd have to know them for awhile before that could happen. (Rock throwing is right out. Throw a rock at something that might be a guardian spirit? No no no no.)


To see a snake THAT high up in a tree up on the edge of a cliff would require the snake to be a size similar to that of a python or an anaconda which are NOT found in North America.

I'd say it was about twenty feet long. Although it was curled up, so it was kind of hard to measure. Don't know much about zoology, but maybe that helps. :D


So, don't Jews have power centered in a certain area? That area being Israel. And also, you hear alot about the Jews having to fight the Muslims off there doorsteps. And recently, that thing about the gaza strip.

Israel's power base is severely checked by the rest of the power base in that area, namely the other Middle Eastern states who despise the country. Due to the wars and unrest in that area, the power is mostly tied up in defending themselves.


So, if Christianity in different countries verries, then doesn't Christianity's power, from being a mojority religion, also change?

Very true. When we consider Christianity being "in control", I at least am talking about North America and Europe. (Even Europe isn't really that bad, these days.) Christians from other areas are generally not as self-entitled as the stereotypical Christian.


But the majority of Americans go to school, and arent nations made up of individuals?

True. But keep in mind that a lot of Christians have been born and raised going to Sunday school and taught Creationism from a young age. A semester in Jr. High generally isn't going to be as persuasive as a lifetime of learning.


And here's a bestselling novel that's sort've called down "hell fire": The New Testament.

Yeah, but the New Testament is so entrenched in our society that it would be crazy to completely decry it, at least on a political front. Keep in mind that Israel is pretty dependant on the U.S. for quite a few things, and you realize why it's not good to question our religious bent.


I would never SEE a serpent in a tree because, thankfully, I have not opened that door.

That's probably wise. Granted, I'm not one to advise people to seek this out, but in your case I really hope you never stumble onto anything like this. I doubt you'd like it.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

You hope I am.
Actually, I don't care either way. It doesn't matter to me as it wouldn't affect my life in the slightest. You, on the other hand, would shit your pants and curl up in the fetal position if you found out that there was no God...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

When I talked about the things I've seen everybody called me "crazy Bible thumper girl". And nobody asked me to share more, nobody wanted to hear about the good.

I didn't think you were crazy when you talked about your cancer being healed. Was there more to the story? I certainly wouldn't mind hearing it. Although, I should mention, a person who is suddenly healed could be coincidence. I'm not saying that's true in your case, but from a logical standpoint a spirit just makes a more weighty argument. Which is probably why Nye and Sammy were interested in what I was saying.


seeing how you ran away I can logically conclude that it was evil.

Well, I didn't really run away, per say. I just left it alone, because I sensed it wanted space. You can give just about anything space, from a deadly animal to a pissed-off family member.


I am not lacking health and vitality to cause me to shit my pants and you if you cannot get your drugs are turned into a blubbering mess.

I'd suggest you avoid random insults. It makes people much less likely to take you seriously.


you were'nt smoking anything funny were ya?

Nope. In my life I've smoked weed exactly once, and it didn't affect me anyway. Certainly I'm smart enough not to try hallucinogens. Plus this was, oh, about a month after this. No connection.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

and you if you cannot get your drugs are turned into a blubbering mess.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!! You Christians CRACK me up!!! Anybody who is NOT a Christian MUST be on drugs!!! The Church has brainwashed you well, Cherisa! I can't believe how much you know about me!!! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! Oh, you ARE precious, Cherisa! And by "precious", I mean a self-righteous, judgemental, sanctimonious bitch...

[Havoc Angel]

When I talked about the things I've seen everybody called me "crazy Bible thumper girl". And nobody asked me to share more, nobody wanted to hear about the good. But when you posted about the serpent, Bnye and sammy both wanted to hear about whatever evil thing you saw (assumption mine, about it being evil) seeing how you ran away I can logically conclude that it was evil.

You know what I will never understand? How people that claim to have seen the truth always think in black and white. I wonder how someone who is not even able to see reality in its full coloured trillion shaded diversity can see something so all-encompassing as The Truth.

Ok, I am not Jesus, so I cannot make the blind to see but still it makes me wonder.....

[Beatnik Bob]

the power is mostly tied up in defending themselves. notice, you said mostly.


Very true. When we consider Christianity being "in control", I at least am talking about North America and Europe. (Even Europe isn't really that bad, these days.) Christians from other areas are generally not as self-entitled as the stereotypical Christian.[Quote] So, if they are only in control in North America, and Europe, then why do Christians still act the way they do, in other places of the world?

[Quote]True. But keep in mind that a lot of Christians have been born and raised going to Sunday school and taught Creationism from a young age. A semester in Jr. High generally isn't going to be as persuasive as a lifetime of learning.
I would normally agree with you here, if it weren't for my knowledge of the Chinese cultural revolution. Even if the child's parents taught the child ideas contradictory to the revolution, the child still wanted to follow the communist party, and Chairman Mao. Because, the children were basically branwashed. And I'd say the same goes for our American school system today. Children learn at a very young age that evolution is the truth. I saw a doctor Zues book about dinosaurs once, that started with the sentence: "millions of years ago, befor you were born....." And so they get this hammered through their brains at a very young age, and believe it, despite what their parents might say.


Yeah, but the New Testament is so entrenched in our society that it would be crazy to completely decry it, at least on a political front. Keep in mind that Israel is pretty dependant on the U.S. for quite a few things, and you realize why it's not good to question our religious bent. I don't think it would matter if Israel spoke out against the New Testament or not. I mean, Christians have condemned Jews for not excepting Jesus, but Jews don't stop supporting Americans (I saw a T shirt in Jerusalem that said, 'Don't Worry America, Israel Is Behind you). So why would America stop helping Israel if the openly said the didn't like the New Testament.

And also, no ones been bothering Israel since they gave the Gaza strip to the palestinians.

[Sammy56]

Originally Posted by Cherisa
I find it absolutly hilarious that you guys are so gullible to beleive in GHOST STORIES and vague apparitions in a tree, BUT FLAT OUT REFUSE to believe in GOD.
When did I say that I do not believe in God? I say I am agnostic because I know it cannot be proven either way, but more specifically I would be between agnostic and a theist. I think there is something greater out there. Maybe we even believe in the same God, but we just see Him very differently. You know, I find it hilarious that you believe in an all-loving God that puts people in Hell for all eternity.


Originally Posted by Cherisa
I would never SEE a serpent in a tree because, thankfully, I have not opened that door.

So you choose to keep your mind closed to other possibilities? Is it because you are happy in your little world where everything can be explained by quoting the Bible? Or that you do not want to put forth the effort to investigate occurences that do not fit in your tiny box of how the world is supposed to work? Either case is very sad and I hope one day you will come to realize that.


Originally Posted by Cherisa
You hope I am.
In a way, I really hope you are wrong.


Originally Posted by Cherisa
When I talked about the things I've seen everybody called me "crazy Bible thumper girl".
Well, probably because you seem to be so closed minded about other religions or possibilities. If someone doesn't agree with you, you insult them or tell them they will regret it one day. Has the thought ever crossed your mind that maybe one day you'll be the one doing the regretting?


Originally Posted by Cherisa
Bnye and sammy both wanted to hear about whatever evil thing you saw (assumption mine, about it being evil) seeing how you ran away I can logically conclude that it was evil.
Probably because what Philosopher had to say was an interesting and unique experience. You have told us you have seen stuff, but never went into detail. He did knowing full well he might be holding himself up for ridicule. So did Nye if I am correct. But what you have told us is the same we have heard over and over. It's the same thing Jake says, except your sentences make sense, it's the same thing my family says, and it's the same things some of my friends have said. If you want us to be interested then tell us something interesting: tell us something that makes us think, something that makes us possibly have to redefine the world as we know it, not something we have heard a million times from people trying to convert us. Also, just becasue you run away form something does not mean it is evil. You could run away becasue you are scared. You could run away becasue, for one reason or another, you want to avoid it. There are countless reasons, not just one.


Originally Posted by Cherisa
Actually it (my leaving ) hasn't panned out for me just yet.
Yeah. Right.


Originally Posted by Cherisa
you were'nt smoking anything funny were ya?
Very mature. Perfect tactic for someone who is trying to dodge an issue. You know, just becasue someone sees something different or differently then you do does not mean they are smoking something. Really, it means that you are not open to other ideas.

I am pretty sure you will not respond to this. You never really answered any of my questions earlier. I have no clue why, but it seems to be fairly common with those arguing Christianity with no evidence. Jake does the same thing.

[DontBeAfraid]

I wish I saw things..... Life wouldnt be so boring.

[jjserio]

hjkdhskgfjhgajfhgjlhagjkhjkfgjkgjkdhfjkghfjghdfjkg jdfhagjkvb buwegtugvBIC

[Defiant Noquisi]

I guess you don"t watch animal planet.... If you disagree with what BNye posted and are getting your information about North American snakes from Animal Planet I suggest you stop watching it. At least do a little digging before you make a fool of yourself.

http://www.enature.com/articles/detail.asp?storyID=592


While the world's largest snakes, Anacondas, can reach 25 to 30 feet in length, North America's longest snake on record was an Eastern Indigo Snake that measured 8 feet 7 1/2 inches.

http://www.scwf.org/articles/index.php?view=67


The longest snake in North America is the Eastern Indigo Snake (Drymarchon corais). With an average length around 60 inches (5 feet) the largest was 103.5 inches (8.5 feet).


You see why you get the responses you do? You post arrogantly as if you know all the details. The same goes for your religion. You think you know it all just by getting your information from one source yet are blind to the fact that a truly knowledgable person will seek out information from many sources. The ignorant resort to taunting and name calling. You post as a provocateur looking for an argument so you can justify to yourself that you have intellect. The blind have better vision than you do.

[Defiant Noquisi]

I live in the Niagara Region in Southern Ontario, Canada, and there is a small, quaint town called Niagara-on-the-Lake which has a fort called Fort George which was built sometime around the early 1800's I believe.

/me has been there and believes that both the QEW and the Peace Bridge suck equally.


Thanks to you as well, DN, for revealing your experience! Can you be more specific with regards to what happened to you? I do feel uncomfortable detailing more but Ill post it anyway and hope its read with respect because I think it was pretty cool.

This driver who happened to unknowingly point out my "door" was someone with whom I had run with quite frequently and we had discussed our beliefs(or his lack of) on many occasions. He was aware that I was having some difficulty with deciding which way I wanted to go with my life.

We were driving across the Sky Bridge on Route 5 in Buffalo heading back to Slohio when the driver(the atheist) in front of me pointed something out which was VERY unusual sitting on top of a street light. Now at this time in my life, I was at a crossroads of whether I should take seriously my heritage or continue my life as before. I had left the christian cults years ago.

I had some "medicine" with me that coincidentaly was related to what we saw on top of the street light so I pulled it out. I pondered on it and then told the driver to be careful because something is going to happen. We came to a stop light before getting on the thruway, another truck was in front of us. When the light turned green, some bimbo in a little car in the right lane shot out and turned left in front of the first truck to beat all us big trucks on the highway. In doing so, she hit the car turning right to get on the thruway, who also happened to have the right-of-way.

So, we get on the thruway westbound and in about 2 miles I get that feeling again so I got on the CB and told the same driver, the atheist in front of me, to keep an eyeball peeled because I didnt think "it" was over yet. About 5 miles later a car loses control, swings left in front of us into the grassy median then over-corrects turning right in front of us again and damn near hits the cement barrier before gaining control in the slow lane.

After we pulled the seat cushions out of our asses, he says hes got some thinking to do because hes never had anything like that happen to him before and especially when someone warned him beforehand each time. He told me that maybe there was something to the beliefs I was trying to decide on.

That evidence was pretty overwhelming for me but apparently it wasnt quite enough yet. It wasnt until an online freind in Texas and my sister saw it (what was up on the lamp post) before I caved and decided to take my heritage and the beliefs seriously.

Wanna see what we saw on the top of that lamp post? Unlike bible thumpers, I at least have proof that what I saw that was so unusual actually exists. In fact, this is so rare that there are only two that are recorded to have ever existed. Just seeing this should have been proof enough but Im stubborn....

What Was On Top Of The Street Light? (http://www.eaglevalleyraptorcenter.org/images/rehab/white-owl.jpg)

Casper the Ghost (http://www.worldbirdsanctuary.org/images/meet_our_residents/raptors/owls/casper_3_sm.jpg)

[Defiant Noquisi]

Did Philosepher say how big the snake was really or was he even in North America when he saw it? I don't remember either thing being stated spefically by Philosopher. Nice dodge but it appears you have forgotten your own response to BNye, which is what I posted my comments about. A reminder.....


To see a snake THAT high up in a tree up on the edge of a cliff would require the snake to be a size similar to that of a python or an anaconda which are NOT found in North America.



I guess you don"t watch animal planet....

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

* Defiant Noquisi has been there and believes that both the QEW and the Peace Bridge suck equally.
Yeah, the Peace Bridge can be a huge pain. We were stuck at the bridge for 2 hours on our way to a Bills game last year. The QEW is okay between Fort Erie and Hamilton. But the closer that you get to Toronto (after Hamilton), the worse it gets...

Thanks for divulging your story, DN! Very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are of Native American descent? Is the appearance of this owl a significant omen in your culture?


Thank you , Ah, I have been waiting along time for someone to call me a bitch.I love it... I think it's an honorable title, because I have never been a bitch and I think it's time for me to be one. All because I said you are physically ill.
I've thought about this for a bit, Cherisa, and I feel that I must apologize for antagonizing you in the first place. I'm sorry, I was out of line. But you have to agree that implying that I'm on drugs was equally out of line. And the sour grapes concerning how you've "seen" God and were cured of your cancer is uncalled for. People get cured of their cancer all the time, and it's wonderful that you've survived such a life-threatening ordeal. To say that God cured you of your cancer is strange, to say the least, considering that most people, including my devoutly Christian uncle, die from their cancer. Another thing that made me dismiss your claims is the simple fact that pretty much every Christian that I've ever talked to (including recent weeks talking with Vox over at the Larger Than Life forums (http://www.larger-than-life.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)) says that you cannot actually see God and that, if you DID see God, you would instantly die. This was all in response to my "Reveal Thyself, God" thread. So, that's why I personally don't believe that you've seen God. Foelhe, on the other hand, saw something very unusual and he intelligently questioned what it could be instead of jumping to an illogical conclusion...

[Defiant Noquisi]

Thanks for divulging your story, DN! Very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are of Native American descent? Is the appearance of this owl a significant omen in your culture? Yes I am and it would depend on the Nation what the significance would be. There are alot of different meanings depending on the Nation. In mine it can be both good and bad but in my particular case, the great horned is good and a white one is stupendous.


(including recent weeks talking with Vox over at the Larger Than Live forums (http://www.larger-than-life.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)) LOL Ive been wondering who would be the first to sneak a link in. :Bott:

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

LOL Ive been wondering who would be the first to sneak a link in.
Heh heh... I figured that I would slip a link in because some people were wondering where Vox had gone to...

[Philosopher Foelhe]

*curses loudly* Okay, did the site's address change from .org to .net? Or am I just a MORON? Anyway, lots of catching up to do...


notice, you said mostly.

Indeed I did. Every group has some power in reserve, or they'd wear down and die out. The difference between Jews in Israel and Christians in the U.S. is that Christians have more power than is healthy. That's why they get aggravated by stupid shit.


And I'd say the same goes for our American school system today. Children learn at a very young age that evolution is the truth. I saw a doctor Zues book about dinosaurs once, that started with the sentence: "millions of years ago, befor you were born....." And so they get this hammered through their brains at a very young age, and believe it, despite what their parents might say.

Tell me, Bob, does your synagogue have children's classes? How old does a child have to be before he or she learns stories from the Torah? And keep in mind that's not just hints, like what you mentioned, but people stating their beliefs as clear, concrete fact. The church I went to when I was young had Sunday School for age four and up.

I should also point out that your view on the school system seems a little different than mine. The only class I ever had on evolution was in Jr. High, a class that lasted one semester and concentrated on evolution for maybe three days. Granted, I live in Arkansas, so that may not be the same throughout the country.


I do feel uncomfortable detailing more but Ill post it anyway and hope its read with respect because I think it was pretty cool.

Much respect! And I'm glad to see you throwing your hat into the ring. :2thumbs:


I didn't start the name calling, or insults or or tell someone they'll regret it someday.

You called Bill, Sammy and myself gullible. Which is a pretty harsh thing to say to a bunch of people who try very hard to be logical and fair. So you actually did start the name-calling. (Not trying to kick anything else up, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.)


Not you, but I told them I had seen God and nobody wanted to hear more about it.

As we seem to have hijacked this thread for our own purposes, feel free to throw your own experiences into the pot. I will of course treat them with the respect they deserve.


Did Philosepher say how big the snake was really or was he even in North America when he saw it? I don't remember either thing being stated spefically by Philosopher.

Well... it was kind've inferred. Bill's reasoning with the cliff, and the fact that I said it was near where I lived. (Granted, that doesn't mean much for me - I'm a hiker, so anywhere less than a day's drive away is "nearby" if the trail is nice enough.) But I'll go ahead and state it clearly - the snake was at least twenty feet long, by my shaky estimation, and it was in Missouri.


I've thought about this for a bit, Cherisa, and I feel that I must apologize for antagonizing you in the first place. I'm sorry, I was out of line.

*grins* W00T! Peace all around! Dammit, if I can't get you people to join hands and sing Kumbaya, I'm not trying hard enough.

[Beatnik Bob]

Indeed I did. Every group has some power in reserve, or they'd wear down and die out. The difference between Jews in Israel and Christians in the U.S. is that Christians have more power than is healthy. That's why they get aggravated by stupid shit.
But aren't Christians agressive in the sense that they took power rather easily.

And If Jews were that agressive, we would have taken power durring the Roman Empire, a long time ago.............
But we didn't, so even though Christianity has the majority vote, (and you say that is why they act like......) they got that majority vote by very early agression.

Thus, how Jews are not agressive, and wouldn't be, even if we did have the majority vote.
And another one of our bigest differences is that Christians are always trying to get the majority vote, to convert people to Jesus. And Jews don't give a crap about getting a majority vote to convert people to God. Even in Israel, our headquarters, we don't push Judaism on anyone. I understand we're having to fight the terrorists, but that doesn't stop us from controlling our own inner country. It's like: just because we get attacked all the time from the outside, doesn't mean we can't controle the inner workings of our nation, like arresting someone for murder, police arent to bussy to not be able to do that.

And meanwhile, in the country of Vatican City, Christianity, is thrown at everyones face.

I'd also like to point out, that the situation in Israel is not as bad as it seems. It's just that the media makes it seem like it is. The media is always blowing things out of proportion. For instance, if you started watching the news, and it was talking about Israel, you can gaurantee that it is talking about something wrong happening there. All they give is hard news about Israel, which causes the average person to think that Israel is constantly under siege. But it really is not bad there.
In fact, Israel has the best deffence force in the world, some say it's better than America's deffence force. (we were checking bagage and everything, long befor the US decided to. It took 911 for the US to have a good deffence force).


And about the school system thing. Since I have a 9 year old sister, I know what happens in the school system today. I agree, it didn't teach evolution in elementary school in the 80s. But they teach it at a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, early age now. Does anyone know about Bill Nye the Science Guy movies?

[Defiant Noquisi]

Heh heh... I figured that I would slip a link in because some people were wondering where Vox had gone to... I call BS on that! LOL

[Defiant Noquisi]

*curses loudly* Okay, did the site's address change from .org to .net? Or am I just a MORON? Anyway, lots of catching up to do... You are not a moron, it actually changed quite some time ago. Details in the announcements section. Thanks for catching up!

[Philosopher Foelhe]

And If Jews were that agressive, we would have taken power durring the Roman Empire, a long time ago............. But we didn't, so even though Christianity has the majority vote, (and you say that is why they act like......) they got that majority vote by very early agression.

*shrugs* I'm not even going to pretend to know about the political atmosphere during the Roman Empire. If early Christians were politically motivated, well, that doesn't necessarily add up to full-on agression.


I'd also like to point out, that the situation in Israel is not as bad as it seems. It's just that the media makes it seem like it is. The media is always blowing things out of proportion. For instance, if you started watching the news, and it was talking about Israel, you can gaurantee that it is talking about something wrong happening there. All they give is hard news about Israel, which causes the average person to think that Israel is constantly under siege. But it really is not bad there.

You've been to Israel? Strange. I've actually talked to someone who went there (granted, this was years ago), and they talked about how every member of the family they stayed with kept gas masks on hand at all times, just in case. Your experiences in Israel were different?


And about the school system thing. Since I have a 9 year old sister, I know what happens in the school system today. I agree, it didn't teach evolution in elementary school in the 80s. But they teach it at a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, early age now. Does anyone know about Bill Nye the Science Guy movies?

Fair enough, but like I said earlier, most parents read their children stories from the Bible or Torah practically since birth. And if there's a contradiction between what their parents say and what their teachers say, most kids will talk to their parents. So I'd still say religion is given every advantage.


You are not a moron, it actually changed quite some time ago. Details in the announcements section. Thanks for catching up!

Ah, I see it. Thanks. :2thumbs:

[Philosopher Foelhe]

did see God, not his face, his arm and his knee ,IF you see his face you will die...Moses saw his booty. And he picked up a book with all the names written in it.

Interesting. I'm trying to see this in my mind. How exactly did you see this? I mean, what angle? What kept you from seeing anything except his arm and knee?


O.K. but i didn't call you bitches.

Yeah, I'm just pointing out where things got rolling. I'm not blaming you for the whole mess. That's kind've the way fights get started - one person makes a side remark that gets blown out of proportion, and suddenly everybody's yelling.


O.K. what was it Fohle? was it a snake or was it more? what color was it? Where do you think it came from?

Questions in order:

It was a spirit. What kind of spirit, I have no idea. Guardian spirit perhaps, but that's second hand.

It was a silver color. It... sort've gleamed, actually. The scales were throwing off colors, and I remember I was confused because it seemed brighter than it should be, lying in the shade there.

As for where it came from, haven't the foggiest. I suppose there's some sort of other dimension - a spiritual realm, or something - where these things come from. But I couldn't say for sure. There are a handful of people I've been talking to lately who seem to know more about the cosmology of this sort of thing, but I'm still not even sure if they're batshit insane or not, so...

Eh. I'm sorry this example is so... mundane? I'm trying to think of one that's a little more grounded in the mystical (???), but everything I can think of ends with, "And then I swore to never speak of it again, for the sake of my crumbling sanity." Bloody annoying.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

I was standing at the foot of the throne , on God's right hand side , and God kept me from seeing the rest of him. It wasn't a wall, more like a veil, but I saw alot more than just his arm and his knee. I saw 2 lions sitting before the throne and four Angels that sortof swooped down in front of my line of vision. I felt no emotion while I was there and but I did notice the absence of time.And a book, And I saw ALL the souls of men, All of them. And as God read the names , not people I knew here. but I knew them. I knew them there. when I looked out to the souls bowing down before God . they looked like the ocean horizion, as far as I could see . our spirits look exactally like Him. Opaque and with form, not ethreal.

... Was this in a particular place? Or was it a vision of some sort? Where were you when you saw this?


I have a feeling I know what kind of spirit,it was, aren't you a wee bit afraid it might have been a bad spirit, and have you asked your self why would you see such a thing?

Well... no...

... Uffa. I hate sounding like a loon, but in for a penny, in for a pound, I guess. Bit of rambling coming up, sorry. (Also, I've removed phrases like "as far as I can tell", because I kept using the things and it was getting old. Take the following with one heaping pile of salt.)

Some people have a tenuous relationship with the spiritual realm. They can affect it on a base level in small ways, which may or may not catch their attention in the physical world. Bill and Sammy's deja vu might be an example, or DN's reading the signs when she spotted that owl and recognized it as an omen. They all seem to have some ability as seers, or something.

Now, I'm one of those people who have a very subtle link there. I'm a natural empath. Before I started dealing with this stuff, I was very keen when it came to people's emotions. I've dealt with some incredibly skilled liars before, and I'm very, very rarely taken in. Of course, I always thought I was just perceptive, but since I've started seeing things I've found that I can also read the emotions and motivations of the spirits I encounter, to a degree. It's jumbled and confusing, but it's still pretty handy for figuring out how dangerous something is.

The spirit on the cliff was certainly not something to play around with, but it wasn't malevolent, or evil. And I've dealt with enough dark creatures to feel I can make that call.


I could guess, but I don't like guessing, but if youre seeing stuff from the spirit realm, i could give you a warning here, but i am liabale to get lamblasted and am not in the mood to fight anymore. So good luck looking into the spirit realm,.

No, I understand what you're saying, and I'm not going to yell. I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but then again, I'm sure you think I'm wrong. We'll just have to agree to keep a different outlook here.

But don't worry, I am careful when dealing with the spiritual world. Maybe not always careful enough, but I'm not just floating on the current here.

[B.NyeTheUruk-Hai]

Cherisa, the problem with your "vision" is that there is a definite possibility that you were simply dreaming. You admit yourself that you were STRONGLY thinking about God all day, thus it is no surprise that you would dream about him, because God was on your mind. Your subconscious manifests itself in your dreams. People in India have the same type of visions that you do, except their visions are related to the Hindu religion. And I could go on and on about the rest of the world. Your faith is STRONG, Cherisa. OF COURSE you will dream about God! Don't you find it strange that ALL of the imagery in your vision is imagery that you see EVERYWHERE in Christianity? Don't you find it strange that God was sitting on a THRONE? I admire your faith, Cherisa, but you eat, sleep and breathe God and Christianity. It WILL manifest itself in your dreams. The difference with Foelhe's vision is that what he saw was unusual, unexpected and not something that was stewing in his subconscious. He questioned what he saw, still doesn't know what he saw, and it was a vision that occurred when he was awake! YOU were sleeping, Cherisa! Yet it never crossed your mind that you could have been dreaming? Your faith is simply TOO STRONG for you to be objective about what you saw, whereas Foelhe was completely objective and doesn't have ANY need to conform his vision to a preconceived faith. Let's put it this way: If both you and Foelhe were to take a Rorschach test, you would see stereotypical Christian images in the ink blots. Foelhe, on the other hand, would see a diverse range of images.

Here is an excerpt from the following article: an experiment (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html)
Persinger has tickled the temporal lobes of more than 900 people before me and has concluded, among other things, that different subjects label this ghostly perception with the names that their cultures have trained them to use - Elijah, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Mohammed, the Sky Spirit.

Don't just skim it, Cherisa. READ IT! The "Wired" article is VERY interesting, even if you don't buy into it. The author had an "out of body" experience and Page 3 even offers a simple explanation for stigmata...

Here is another interesting article to read: the religious "experience" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml)


But who would you call upon if you found yourself surrounded by malevolent or evil spirits?
Cherisa, you have to understand that there is a fundamental difference between us and yourself. When confronted with a problem, you feel the need or desire to turn to God to help you out. For us (not all of us), we tend to take care of the problem ourselves or we turn to a family member or a friend to help out.

[Philosopher Foelhe]

But who would you call upon if you found yourself surrounded by malevolent or evil spirits?

The Unnamed God. :D

I don't really have anyone to cry out to. And the reason I don't is that I believe God is a composite of all the dieties we have seen in our society. Which is a rational way to look at it, and my experiences lead me to believe the correct one. Unfortunately, I don't have a personal relationship with any diety, which seems to screw me over in some situations.

But I believe if you have faith in a particular god, that faith can be a powerful thing, because every god represents a facet of the true God. A friend of mine studies the Egyptian gods, and believes in them very strongly. And once, when we were both in a tight spot, he tried to cast some sort of protection spell, and threw one hell of a lot into it. I didn't see much of what happened after, but he swears up and down that Amon himself appeared to defend us. Take that as you will.


Persinger has tickled the temporal lobes of more than 900 people before me and has concluded, among other things, that different subjects label this ghostly perception with the names that their cultures have trained them to use - Elijah, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Mohammed, the Sky Spirit.

Yeah! That's sort've what I'm saying. Well, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. But at the same time, yeah.

(Dammit, I had to wake up at four this morning. Don't expect me to make sense.)


Cherisa, you have to understand that there is a fundamental difference between us and yourself. When confronted with a problem, you feel the need or desire to turn to God to help you out. For us (not all of us), we tend to take care of the problem ourselves or we turn to a family member or a friend to help out.

That's something of importance to note. I should point out that some of the people I know who've been to Shangri-La have strange talents, and while they may call on a god to focus those talents, they still believe the god is just a focus for their own innate abilities.

Come to think of it, that may answer a question that's been bandied around by some of the members of the forum. Bill, I think you asked why your devout uncle died while Cherisa was saved? It's possible Cherisa has some sort of innate healing ability, which she triggered through her belief in God. (Note I say, "It's possible", Cherisa. I mean no disrespect.)

[Philosopher Foelhe]

my healing involved steps that I had to make, exercising my faith was crucial to my healing, dircetly involving God. So, No. I do not have any "healing capacities" on my own merit.

Well, I'm not sure that follows. Magic and miracles are based almost entirely in belief. Your belief in God might've been the necessary trigger to set your own abilities in action.

Of course, that's just my theory. If you think God healed you, you're probably right.

[Beatnik Bob]

About the debate we were doing on: "would Jews act as nasty as Christians, if we had the majority vote."

Well, we did have the majority vote also in the Arab Empire. Arabs didn't seem to care much about our presence in Spain, North Africa, west India, southern Italy, southern Russia, and the whole middle east. So under their rule, we had a Golden Age. And this is the age where alot of the Talmudic commentaries on the Mishna come from.
But we didn't act like ass holes, on the level that Christians do to people. People like the Rambam made commentaries on the Mishna. Moses Maimon also became a royal physician of the King of Egypt. And the arts flourished.
The only thing that changed this was when the Christians (a minority at the time) came in and invaded the Arab Empire, and eventually took over. And many Hebrews and Arabs were slain. And now the only thing that's really left of the Arab empire are the countries in the Middle East, parts of southern Europe, and many places still in Spain, and along North Africa.

But never the less, even though it was called the Arab Empire, there were about over a million Jews there. And many leaders of the Arab Empire were Jews. But the Arab empire was very acceptant of other religions. And the only time there was a Spanish inquisition in Spain, is when the Christians eventually drove the Arabs and Jews out.
The Arab empire was the greatest empire in the world durring its time, and no one suffered, was persecuted, exiled, etc. for there beliefs.

[autryn2]

Cherisa,

Hello sister..... I for one appreciate the story of your experience. It gives me a boost (spiritually).

If you've read this entire thread, then you know that I, too, have had an experience. Unlike you, however, I don't think I'm supposed to tell the general public yet because I'm not sure whether or not what I saw (experienced) happens to me or I had someone elses experience, and I KNOW it hasn't happened yet.

What I WILL say is that it is a big deal... something (here on earth in the physical plane) is opened. It takes the power of the Holy Spirit to physically do it. I wasn't around to see what came out but I can guess.....

I know you don't know me but just like you, my story is real. As scary as my vision is it is still comforts me... I was SPOKEN to by the Almighty. I'll never forget it. If you haven't heard His Voice there is...just...no...way... to adequately describe it. So much Love, so much Power, so compelling.

[Beatnik Bob]

So much Love, so much Power, so compelling.
Aww. How sweet......
Why doesn't he just speak to everyone, to compel them to do whatever he wants them to do?

[Philosopher Foelhe]

Well, we did have the majority vote also in the Arab Empire. Arabs didn't seem to care much about our presence in Spain, North Africa, west India, southern Italy, southern Russia, and the whole middle east. So under their rule, we had a Golden Age. And this is the age where alot of the Talmudic commentaries on the Mishna come from.

Ah, I don't think I've stated myself clearly. It's true that power corrupts, but there's another saying which isn't quite as well-known. Power is checked by power. In the case of the Arab Empire, the Jews would've been balanced by the Arabs. If either of the groups got too uppity, the other could smack them back down.

Whereas Christians, for the most part, pretty much had the run of Europe for awhile. I guess there might've been some pagan groups around as well, but Christianity really got it's run in after Rome started knocking those groups down left, right and center.

... Come to think of it, that might be another explanation for Christianity's somewhat power-hungry nature. Christianity gets it's power started after Rome displays its dominance. Possibly the conquering-army mentality rubbed off.


Why doesn't he just speak to everyone, to compel them to do whatever he wants them to do?

The eternal question. Why didn't he tell everyone about the Torah and Mishna, rather than giving it to Moses and letting him distribute it? Would've made these arguments over what the Torah was go away. God's a shitty strategist. :D